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INTJ and INFJ differences intj vs infj
Old 10-21-2007, 11:42 AM   #26
toonia
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  Originally Posted by Veneti
If you could statistically provide evidence that showed that INTJ's and INFJ's paired up then I might be more persuaded. But the INTJ would have to be the male, as I seriously don't think a T woman is going to settle for a mushy F male.

I'm not talking about pairing up at all. Being similar wouldn't necessarily be an indicator of successful romantic pairs anyway. The only point here is to refer to similarities of internal thought processes. It's about looking beyond the external behavioral stereotypes (which are often misunderstood and woefully distorted through anecdotal assumptions). INFJs get stereotyped in all sorts of uninformed ways. They are often seen as feelingful and concrete. There is information to suggest quite the contrary for those interested. If one is willing to let go of the stereotypes, there could be room for insight. I'm going to take an intuitive leap here
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and suggest that the majority of people here (and elsewhere) are not aware of what INFJ thought processes look like. It would be interesting to discover the assumptions before debating the (dis)similarities. Comparing functions is the easiest first step because anecdotal information is bound to be distorted through false assumptions.

  Originally Posted by Veneti
So, the INTJ is most similar to the INTP and thatís what has been borne out on this site with most INTJ's thinking they are next closest to INTP. (In fact it was my P that was sledged into conformity of thought process by college/university).

The INTJ is not similar to the INTP in terms of functions, which refer to internal thought processing. Every function is the exact opposite and somewhat rearranged. Externally there may be more similarities, but that is not a point of key interest here because it is not as useful in comparing the similarities specifically between the INTJ and INFJ. There are of course, compelling ways in which INTJ and INTP correlate, but that is a discussion for the other thread.

INTJ Ni Te Fi Se
INTP Ti Ne Si Fe

In a similar way INFJs and INFPs are very dissimilar even though they often share values. This becomes apparent when thought processes are compared in deeper discussions. Both the INTP and the INFP do not use Ni. Doesn't it seem reasonable to consider that this requires a type of negotiation that wouldn't be an issue between types that share a dominant function? Of course there are also differences in internal processing between INTJ and INFJ or they would be the same personality, but the similarities are significant and easily overlooked when focusing on external, concrete behaviors. The similarities have to do with a willingness to examine a concept from multiple angles, inclusion of all data before dismissal, ability to make intuitive leaps, reconciling of paradox, self-detachment, and a focus on rigorous, comprehensive analysis.

Relying too much on the four surface letters while ignoring the underlying functions can lead to a great many misunderstandings about this personality system. Yet that is how many, if not most, people approach it.

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Old 10-21-2007, 07:55 PM   #27
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Hmm.. I think you *might* have some evidence if you can show that women are somehow impacted to a significant amount by hormonal influences that make them more "feeling" rather than "thinking".
(I think this is the difference, itís the way I see it... some 80%+ of women have the F).

Otherwise, the F is a different brain pattern.

There's a vast difference between feeling (Which is group and environment orientated) and thinking which is potentially unbounded in its perspective.

Lets be honest, F is a biological trait that makes the woman attach to the male to ensure survival of her offspring. The need for reaffirmation of "love" is just a test to ensure he returns home with the kill and she won't be defenseless against other males in the tribe. Humankind spans a very long time... the current environment is just the last couple of hundred years maximum. Trait types are mostly genetic.

So, if the F is "group focused/related" then its going to be far less developed than what can be achieved by the T.

Don't agree that INTJ is vastly different to the INTP, in fact in my case itís about 4 questions answered differently. To me the INTP is just the disorganized INTJ (Although the INTJ knows that disorganization of thoughts in multi scenarios can be the root of innovation).

An INTJ male can emphasize with a female INFJ if he thinks F is just a function of her emotional state. Maybe she could morph into an INTJ. My mother was incredibly emotional and she tested INTJ like my father.

The F could be similar to the T just as much as the P could be to the J... why? Well, the MBTI makes no allowance for variability. Nobody is fixed, so whatís the ability to be variable?

In the following paragraph...

Toonia

 
In a similar way INFJs and INFPs are very dissimilar even though they often share values. This becomes apparent when thought processes are compared in deeper discussions. Both the INTP and the INFP do not use Ni. Doesn't it seem reasonable to consider that this requires a type of negotiation that wouldn't be an issue between types that share a dominant function? Of course there are also differences in internal processing between INTJ and INFJ or they would be the same personality, but the similarities are significant and easily overlooked when focusing on external, concrete behaviors. The similarities have to do with a willingness to examine a concept from multiple angles, inclusion of all data before dismissal, ability to make intuitive leaps, reconciling of paradox, self-detachment, and a focus on rigorous, comprehensive analysis.

I believe you actually admit that MBTI has to be patched to make it work. So, are the rationals similar or not? And just why are they grouped together?
[reason]quoted original author for easier readability[/reason]

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Old 10-21-2007, 07:59 PM   #28
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I understand the Feeling function to be valuative, while the Thinking function is objective. All brains are wired for emotion, and more aspects emotion may tend to be filtered through the subjective value based processing of F. However, I am sure that "Feeling" as it is used in MBTI and Jung's theories is not about emotions per se. I can dig up the references, but am too tired tonight.

That is the key difference between INFJ and INTJ. While both use Ni processing, the INTJ prefers to work in objective, measured systems, while the INFJ tends to prefer subjective, approximate systems. It is the content moreso than the manner of processing that makes the difference.

It is interesting that while the ENTJ, INTP, and ISTJ are all closely related by letter names, of the four closest cousins, it is only the INFJ that shares the dominant function. Understanding the similarities and distinctions between these two types is an ideal path towards understanding how Ni really works. I believe it is Kiersey who says it is the iNtuition and Sensing functions that cause the greatest distinction between types - not the differences in F and T or even I and E.
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Old 10-21-2007, 11:52 PM   #29
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Now, I remembered 2 years ago, I was INFJ. But during that time, I was not emotional [I am a guy]. So here is the question: What is the real INFJ thought process?
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:39 AM   #30
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Toonia? I didn't know you posted here. Hi.

Anyway, I presume the primary differences between an INTJ and INFJ would be that an INTJ would have a stronger need to display competence due to their NT nature. Also, I think they would be less comfortable expressing emotions, and would be less able/willing to pretend to agree with something to keep the peace.

I think the best way to determine if you're an INFJ or INTJ is whether you use more Ti/Fe, or Fi/Te. I have my own little theory about how those functions work together (although I admit it's a little far-fetched).


Te and Fi both consider the existence of a thing in itself to be a truth, and subjugate expression to existence. Te sees things that actually exist in an external reality, data. Fi sees things that actually exist in an internal reality, emotions. They create rules, but only based on their observations of what exists.

Fe and Ti both consider rules aspects of reality, and subjugate reality and expression to rules. Ti tries to use rules (logic) to define/predict internally what exists (or should exist) in external reality, data. Fe tries to use rules (etiquette) to define/predict externally what exists (or should exist) in internal reality, emotions.

Therefore, Te and Fi are in fact similar processes engaged in reverse, as are Fe and Ti. This is why you always see those processes together in the initial four functions.

Ti/Fe -- Creates rules by which to describe/model reality.
Fi/Te -- Creates rules which are determined by reality.
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:15 PM   #31
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Toonia, I think you are on to something here.

I am not an expert on the systems but my own experience is that I turn into an INFJ in some circumstances.

For example, I doubt INTJ's write much poetry or do much abstract expressionist type of artwork. I used to do that a lot. Also, women find me very touchy-feely and sentimental IF I am opening up that side to them (only the ones that I like). It seems that I use the T for business, finance, and professional development. And save the F for artistic and emotional stuff.

Anyway, nobody comes to a test without any cultural norms established. So those always play a role. But ultimately I doubt that anybody can be pinned down as exactly one type over time. Circumstances, context, biochemsitry, etc. all influence how we function.

What I really want to know is if INFJ and INTJ are a good match for relationships.
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:55 PM   #32
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lol, cut to the main point. Thats a very good question, its said INFJ's/INTJ's are the golden couples or are they?
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:08 PM   #33
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  Originally Posted by toonia
It seems worth exploring the similarities and distinctions between INTJs and their closest MBTI cousins.

I'd consider ENTJs closer bedfellows; Yes, both INJs are dominant Ni types, but NTJs are not only the same temprement but also share the same function/attitude pairs (Te, Ni, Fi, Se, etc.)...

I suspect the degree of kinship one feels for these neighbors depends on strength of preferences; I usually feel closer to ISFPs than to extremely extroverted ENFPs, but closer to modestly extroverted ENFPs than to ISFPs, in general.

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Old 10-24-2007, 10:25 PM   #34
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  Originally Posted by thegnat
If you're saying that NFs are similar to us in emotional distance too, personally, then why should societal norms affect their personality so much? *

This tends to be an Fi/Fe thang more than anything else. ENFJ Paul McCartney was once asked what the big difference was between himself and INFP John Lennon. "John doesn't care what other people think of him. I do" came the reply (paraphrase). Of course, a dominant Fi-er like John is still going to care considerably more than your average INTJ, who not only shares this preference for Fi, but is considerably and more selectively F-driven overall...

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Old 10-24-2007, 10:35 PM   #35
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  Originally Posted by GOD
Lets be honest, F is a biological trait that makes the woman attach to the male to ensure survival of her offspring. The need for reaffirmation of "love" is just a test to ensure he returns home with the kill and she won't be defenseless against other males in the tribe

I love it when you INTJs get all mushy on me
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:44 PM   #36
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I know two INFJs. One is my best friend's girlfriend. She's generally withdrawn, though has her silly moments. I don't know her very well, but my friend (INFP) seems to like her just fine. They're both fairly passionate people, and it's probably a good idea for two passionate people to be in a relationship together.

The other one I got to know over the summer over the web. He is extremely talkative and, when he lets me talk, ignores what I say unless I said something he agrees with anyways. I was initially more enthusiastic about our exchanges, because I thought he was another somewhat peculiar person who liked to speculate on ideas and plots. He has an explosive temper and has these rigid constructs of what he expects of the future and other people, dismissing any ideas that go along with those constructs with the verbal version of a hand-wave. He is also the sort who would be hurt if he was told that his ideas weren't awesome. INTJs may share these qualities, but they make less of an effort to conceal them and aren't nearly as clingy. It's difficult to shake this guy off, because he has me on a pedestal and thinks that our glaring differences make us compatible. It makes me feel trapped, but apparently he has very few other people to talk to.
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:42 PM   #37
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Maybe you wave the white flag, hey how about a new, but nice INTJ to talk too. Pass the ball [the problem toward someone else], sort of speak, lol. Its that that hard, just alittle more thinking, lol. Did you know that INTJ's are really cool? For example, I checked out this thread and wow INTJ's are so amusing, smart, don't mind expressing themselves. Here is a link.........
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:58 PM   #38
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Hi everyone, thought I would give you an inside tour of my brain in answer to these posts.

As I am introverted, and less inclined to be expressive, I find it very difficult to use my Fe the way I am meant to and I tend to use my Ti along with my Ni so I can stay quite introverted. When I meet someone who I can relate to, (usually another NF or an NT) then I am slightly more extraverted. I normally use my Fe as my final line for making a decision, how I feel about the decision is a deciding factor and outweighs the factual information.

Although, I am very analytical and go through the pros and cons and cause and effect of everything. I analyse people, situations and just about everything I experience. I love to talk about abstract concepts and ideas, I will get an idea into my head and then spend ages researching it on the internet and in books to find out all the information I can. I love to read books and have (note the feeling statement) a burning desire to learn, improve and grow. I have to know 'why' and 'how' and will spend time wondering about the most abstract questions which if I voice them out loud, brings the strangest looks from those I know. Inside my head is like the niagra falls, with all sorts of conversations, questions and ideas buzzing around in there. My favourite topics are psychology (because it involves people - Fe I guess), philosophy and cool science stuff - because it's fascinating.

Because Fe is my auxillary, I feel a very strong drive to connect to others and share things with them, normally ideas and concepts. But I am drawn to find a soulmate and mindmate to be close to and can feel quite lost and depressed if I do not have someone I can share a connection with. As I don't use my Fe as much as I should, it can come back and bite me, which results in my being extremely touchy/feely and passionate about things or people, causes etc and I feel quite out of control. I feel that I do not control my emotions and that they are in control of me, although I do try to suppress them as my emotions are intense with no happy medium.

I need to have a purpose and definite plan of where to go in life or I feel lost and get frustrated. But what I do has to have meaning, and I am driven to make a difference in the world, to help people grow and become the best that they can be. Having a conversation where I can learn something and grow or being able to help someone else grow, is a real high for me and I get very excited and passionate in such a situation, by passionate I mean intense or enthusiastic etc. I love intellectual discussions but also when I am stressed or in a crisis or someone invokes strong emotions in me, I resort to intellectulizing things (is that a word, it seems wrong).

I can't think of anything else right now, but hope that makes sense and can be logically understood.
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Old 08-30-2008, 08:42 PM   #39
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i love these types of discussions... i just know, personally, that i get along very well with the INTJ type...
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Old 08-30-2008, 10:29 PM   #40
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I can tell you that it is a curse at times because it is very hard to shut your mind down. I have to be pushing myself to the point of risking life and limb to just stop thinking about random things. When I ride my dirt bike fast I can focus at the task at hand. And put all my energy at riding fast. When I am done I feel relaxed and refreshed. Then I start analising how well I rode. And it all starts over again lol. I also play guitar and when I jam I can move myself into my music and forget about the outside world. Most of my best songs just came out thru playing. I also have had to learn how to accept others points of view in an argument but I think that comes with age and self reflection. I hated myself for years because of my environment. I would let others beat the shit outta me because I did not want to fight back. Now I will fight back and I have no problem letting you know that I am not afraid anymore. That's where anger get's me. I am afraid of my very strong temper and if people knew what I was thinking when I am angry with them they would never make me angry. I can be as sensitive as they come but I can also tear you apart if needed. At 36 I have learned how to control my anger but it still get angry at times. I am human. I just wonder if I live in a world of humans or a bunch of ignorant clones... And for the record I just made that up and I am gonna use that as my new signature. LOL
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:37 AM   #41
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  Originally Posted by toonia
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I do think that some male INFJs test as INTJs because of cultural norms related to gender expression of emotion. I also believe the reverse is true. Because of this, only the most extreme male F's are likely to identify with the INFJ label. The reverse could be true of women. INTJ-INFJs are look-a-likes because they share the dominant function, both tend to be motivated to be high achievers, and both actually have a strong, inward sensitivity.

INTJs and INFJs are very similar in some ways, and completely different in other ways. All in all, I think if you have an accurate sense of people, it's usually easy to tell the difference between an INFJ and an INTJ.

I doubt most INFJ men would ever test as INTJs in a rigorous personality test. In real life, yes, some people who only know them on a superficial level might incorrectly see them as being INTJs. I think most people who I interact with on a day-to-day working level would mistakenly peg me as an INTJ, because they never get to see me in a situation where my INFJ strengths would come to the surface.

With INTJ women, I've never come across any who are likely to test as INFJs -- there is a definite "hard edge" kind of vibe to INTJ women, which makes them stand out from the crowd and easy to spot.

It's difficult to "type" somebody via online interaction alone. If you get to look at both their online and real-life personalities though, it's usually very easy.

INTJs and INFJs share the dominant function (introverted iNtuition) and inferior function (extraverted Sensing). Everything else is completely different, and that makes a big difference to how they process the world.

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Old 08-31-2008, 11:55 AM   #42
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This thread was resurrected at an appropriate time for me. Something had been gnawing at the back of my mind for awhile about testing as an INTJ. While I can relate on many levels, something just never seemed quite right about it. 44sunsets just mentioned INTJ women having a hard edged vibe, I can see that in my best friend, but it is very laking in me. After much thought for the last couple of days I've come to realize that I've been lying to myself about how strong my T function was and that my F is actually dominant.

I can say that once I'd taken time to look at the INFJ profile it fit me much better. I still find it interesting as to how much of the INTJ profile fits, though. There really are quite a few common points.
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:05 PM   #43
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INFJ Artist

I am an artist who teaches the science of painting beginning with da Vinci. It seems only in art schools and some few art history classes is the science of art taught. I suppose the one dictum that covers it all is Sullivan the architect who said "Form Follows Function." It grieves me that 99% of the viewing public continues to believe that are comes strictly from the emotional and intuitive sources.
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Old 10-14-2008, 11:31 PM   #44
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  Originally Posted by INTJoe
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From my little understanding, the INFJ's are like "activists", who seem to care about the environment, people, pets, and living things in general, etc. I may be wrong.

As an INTJ, I care more about the idea of "humankind", yet am not as concerned with pleasing people on a one-by-one basis to get there. I care a great deal about people, the environment, and pets, but just don't show it outwardly. I'd spend my energy thinking of ways to make things better for those listed, as opposed to going out and getting "my hands dirty", so to speak.

I mean, I really can't relate to activists, per se. I wouldn't call them whackjobs like some do, but it's just not me. I'd rather not "waste" my time.

I don't know what type I am, but the idea of simply thinking and never doing anything to make the world better drives me crazy and wastes my time. One of my problems now is that I can't see a way to take action to do what I'd like to do, but I feel driven to do something. As fun as it is to think and theorize, if I only think of an innovation or that I can do something, without ever trying to do it or enact that change, I feel shallow and castrated.

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