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Pushing People Away? attraction, intj and infj, relationship advice
Old 07-21-2008, 02:47 AM   #26
SiMey
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  Originally Posted by ricearoni
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I'm confused. What do you mean by factual statement?

If I write to him and mention that I was talking to some guy (even using the words old and weird to describe them), he won't write back to me for a few days, which is odd because he writes regularly. It's a coincidence I've noticed about four times in the past month. I can only explain it as jealousy or that he enjoys the fact that when he doesn't write back, I will worry about him and contact him in a way that shows that I still care about him.

Okay so we are not talking a one off here. Maybe he is retreating?

  Originally Posted by ricearoni
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So basically, once you've chosen to be friends with someone, even if it's platonic, that person will always be considered a friend and will always have a place in your thoughts?

Yeah pretty much, even if I haven't seen them in years, I'll think of them at times and just pick up where we left off as if nothing had happened. I have spoken to another person who told me that unless people talk to her on a regular basis, they are not her friends and email doesn't count. I stopped emailing her.

  Originally Posted by ricearoni
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And if INTJs are hypersensitive to rejection, it seems likely that they would make a snap emotional decision when they believe they've been rejected. So it's possible that there was a misunderstanding. How to deal with that...I have no clue.

Yeah I was thinking it through and reading the following post, perhaps this is the case. However if I felt rejected I'd do everything I could to not show it to you and behave the same as I always had. The last thing I'd want is for you to know how I felt. I might then retreat and analyse later but then I also wouldn't initiate contact with you.

  Originally Posted by Icristhus
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That's a funny thing about me, when I decide to analyze a relationship because I'm feeling rejected. I make an immediate snap judgement, then retreat for anywhere from minutes to months (on one very, very hard occasion) and re-evaluate the entire thing a few hundred times before deciding if I'm actually going to stick to that snap judgement or not.

Yeah point taken.

  Originally Posted by Icristhus
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Maybe, since you mentioned he's admitted to being afraid of the distance, he's simply in the hyper-sensitive freak-out mode in that he thinks everything and anything is going to happen to ruin his chances, and so he's retreating at every opportunity?

I have done that.


  Originally Posted by Icristhus
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In short.. It doesn't sound to me like he's made any real decision whatsoever, no matter what he might have snapped on any occasion, except that he's extremely interested in you (whether it be platonically, romantically, or both).

I agree he is interested simply by his level of contact and willingness to talk to you for hours. I'm not sure in what way he is interested though.

  Originally Posted by Icristhus
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My advice would be to just keep persistent if it's truly important to you. No pressure, just stay in contact, explain yourself rationally and gently explain to him why his reasons that it could all fall apart aren't sound ones. And, if he decides he wants to ramble or be honest or something similar, just hear him out and be supportive.

I thought on this for a bit. How do you think he would respond if you asked him a "magic wand" question? That is, take away these reasons/excuses eg distance etc you think can overcome, if these were not barriers or did not exist, would he be interested in you?

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Old 07-22-2008, 03:08 AM   #27
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  Originally Posted by SiMey
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Quote:Originally Posted by Icristhus
My advice would be to just keep persistent if it's truly important to you. No pressure, just stay in contact, explain yourself rationally and gently explain to him why his reasons that it could all fall apart aren't sound ones. And, if he decides he wants to ramble or be honest or something similar, just hear him out and be supportive.

I thought on this for a bit. How do you think he would respond if you asked him a "magic wand" question? That is, take away these reasons/excuses eg distance etc you think can overcome, if these were not barriers or did not exist, would he be interested in you?

Actually, during the phone conversation, I had asked him that if we were living in the same place, would something have been possible. And I'm kicking myself now because I can't remember how he worded his answer exactly. But he basically said, yes, if we lived in the same area we could (or was it could've?) dated like normal people.

Thank you so much Icristhus and SiMey, for sharing your thoughts and experiences. After reading through everything, I was motivated to write him an email explaining why I acted the way I did and that I still like him and that I wanted to move and that I think things between us can be worked on and improved. I also told him that I'd always want to be his friend, but right now I'm still hoping for more and that things will be awkward because of that hope, so I needed a break from this.

So far, he hasn't responded. I'm not sure if that was too much information and he went on freak out overload or if he's just that indifferent to the whole thing. It's only been a day, but I think a simple response...I'm sorry I don't feel the same way, but I understand you need some space. Wouldn't have been too hard to create.

Oh well. I don't regret sending it and I'm glad to have been so open about what I was feeling for a change. At least I know for sure that there isn't any confusion coming from me anymore.

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Old 07-24-2008, 12:50 PM   #28
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Ok, so I've decided that any problems with this guy does not stem from the fact that he is an INTJ. No, they exist because he's WEIRD. Last night I had a beer. A really good beer with an orange slice in it and along with that buzz, came wisdom.

All the things that he said was wrong with me and his past relationships...are things that are wrong with him. He's the insecure one, he's the one afraid of an emotional connection, he's the one who is awkward with conversations and he seriously has no clue what the heck he feels. Also, my friend (not the INTJ) told me this horrible story of how he spent 7 years pining for someone who sent him mixed signals, so I decided to stop waiting around and get answers.

So this morning I sent him an email asking why he hasn't responded. To which he replied...I didn't know you expected a response. To which I replied with something along the lines of...duh. Even if you were to tell me to go where the sun don't shine, I would've preferred a response. And then he replies with, I thought you didn't want a response...let me know what the plan is and I'll do my best to follow it.

What the heck? First I behave like a lovesick loser and send him an uncomfortably gut exposing letter, then I go and act like bitter ex-girlfriend and he's asking me what I want?

*sigh*

Any regular Joe Schmo knows that it's time to say, um crazy lady...go away. Someone please tell me that INTJs make more sense than this guy.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:24 PM   #29
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This one hits too close to home for me. I wish I knew what to tell you, but I'm in a similar situation and just as lost.

It's the "friends" bit that disturbs me most. I get the difficulty with distance, and lack of frequency of contact/sight, and the fact that us INxx's get all nervous and tied up in our minds when we'd really rather just shove our introvertedness aside for the moment and snuggle or at least dare to steal a quick kiss. But the ability to hang on and be purely platonic, have a great friend connection, and then freak out about romantic notions ... *sigh*

I wish that things had gone better for you. Trust me, I know how you feel. I know what it is like to have an INTJ connect with you on so many levels, and then resist at least attempting to work things out in a relationship with distance involved.
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:30 PM   #30
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  Originally Posted by ricearoni
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Ok, so I've decided that any problems with this guy does not stem from the fact that he is an INTJ. No, they exist because he's WEIRD. Last night I had a beer. A really good beer with an orange slice in it and along with that buzz, came wisdom.

All the things that he said was wrong with me and his past relationships...are things that are wrong with him. He's the insecure one, he's the one afraid of an emotional connection, he's the one who is awkward with conversations and he seriously has no clue what the heck he feels. Also, my friend (not the INTJ) told me this horrible story of how he spent 7 years pining for someone who sent him mixed signals, so I decided to stop waiting around and get answers.

So this morning I sent him an email asking why he hasn't responded. To which he replied...I didn't know you expected a response. To which I replied with something along the lines of...duh. Even if you were to tell me to go where the sun don't shine, I would've preferred a response. And then he replies with, I thought you didn't want a response...let me know what the plan is and I'll do my best to follow it.

What the heck? First I behave like a lovesick loser and send him an uncomfortably gut exposing letter, then I go and act like bitter ex-girlfriend and he's asking me what I want?

*sigh*

Any regular Joe Schmo knows that it's time to say, um crazy lady...go away. Someone please tell me that INTJs make more sense than this guy.

My INTJ is straightforward. He's not the most outgoing, demonstrative guy, but I had no doubt he liked me when we started out. My feeling about relationships is that if you can't show equal interest, I won't respect you enough to have a relationship with you. I'm not a hearts and flowers, sentimental type. But I expect an equal.

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Old 07-24-2008, 09:03 PM   #31
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This guy sounds a lot like myself. I developed a "self-defense" mechanism that would trigger when an event threated my identity. It is possible that he doesn't identify himself as someone in a relationship, or may be experiencing feelings that make him feel not like himself. What I am guessing is happening is there is a war going on inside his head between his desire to be in a relationship and his desire to preserve his identity. The "self-defense mechanism" can result in mental lock ups, flustered behavior, or in the worst case scenario, tap into unbridled rage. Instead of a carefully thought out response, I would blurt out the first thing that popped into my head without thinking. In many cases the statement was completely untrue.

The goal of the SDM is to sabotage whatever is happening that threatens my identity. It will act without me really thinking about the consequences. It is a panic reaction of an identity in crisis.

The SDM can be more insidious by getting myself to rationalize that I am better off not in a relationship, or to focus on all of the negative possibilities of a relationship. I have dealt with this for many years wavering from desiring to be in a relationship to giving up because I don't think that its worth the effort. Now that I have become more secure that my identity is safe, I think I can finally put the beast to rest.

I can't really give you any sure-fire advice as to how to combat this aspect of his personality (if he has it.) He may have to grow beyond his insecurity of losing his identity as he is now. Perhaps engaging in some activity that reinforces his identity that is unrelated to your relationship might ease his discomfort. Or if you think his SDM has triggered, give him a chance to calm down and rethink his response. It is important that he be calm and not rush his response. Don't beat him up for lying in his initial response or he will become defensive.

Edit: Check some of that advice above. You can't hope to have a relationship walking through a minefield. He will have to be secure in his identity before he can disarm his SDM. Perhaps sharing my experiences will allow him to realize what is going on with himself. It took me a long time to fully grasp why I behaved the way I did.

Oh, and if he does have a SDM, he does have feelings for you and does want to be in a relationship. If you catch his SDM triggering, it only confirms this.

BTW please take this advise with a huge grain of salt, I could be very wrong. Note how my lack of confidence in my advice is atypical of an INTJ. The only thing I have confidence in is my own experiences dealing with my SDM.

 

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Old 07-24-2008, 10:08 PM   #32
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sigh. i wish i had advice to share. but as curiousjane and i discovered in an earlier thread, our situations sound *almost exactly the same*--and now much like yours. like they could be the same guy. it's eery, really.

kudos to you for "standing up for yourself" in a way, with that second email. i sent that first, tentative email too...and, like you, got *no response*. after that, i was so confused/embarrassed/second-guessing that i high tailed it into friend mode, (perhaps like what curiousjane is describing above--don't mean to put words in your mouth!) only to not even get a sign from him whether he wants that--or more, or less.

anyway, i was starting to feel like the crazy lady myself, too. glad to see there are at least two of us (infj!) crazies around. nice to meet you
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Old 07-25-2008, 12:55 PM   #33
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  Originally Posted by curiousjane
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I wish that things had gone better for you. Trust me, I know how you feel. I know what it is like to have an INTJ connect with you on so many levels, and then resist at least attempting to work things out in a relationship with distance involved.

Yeah, especially since the distance is so easy to fix. Nothing is tying me to where I am right now. Actually, I'm at a place where I need to pick a direction and work towards it. I could've easily moved to where he is. Heck, he's known I've been considering that state for years.

  Originally Posted by mkay
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My INTJ is straightforward. He's not the most outgoing, demonstrative guy, but I had no doubt he liked me when we started out. My feeling about relationships is that if you can't show equal interest, I won't respect you enough to have a relationship with you. I'm not a hearts and flowers, sentimental type. But I expect an equal.

I'll have to let this simmer in my mind for a bit, but I think it's already what I've been starting to think about this situation. It's not balanced.

  Originally Posted by Vastfnup
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The goal of the SDM is to sabotage whatever is happening that threatens my identity. It will act without me really thinking about the consequences. It is a panic reaction of an identity in crisis.

The SDM can be more insidious by getting myself to rationalize that I am better off not in a relationship, or to focus on all of the negative possibilities of a relationship. I have dealt with this for many years wavering from desiring to be in a relationship to giving up because I don't think that its worth the effort. Now that I have become more secure that my identity is safe, I think I can finally put the beast to rest.

Thanks for sharing about SDM. I used to have something similar to that, though my version was more avoidant in nature. I would literally run away from people because I was afraid of being consumed by relationships. I wonder if this is something INxJs do when they're still figuring themselves out?

 
I can't really give you any sure-fire advice as to how to combat this aspect of his personality (if he has it.) He may have to grow beyond his insecurity of losing his identity as he is now. Perhaps engaging in some activity that reinforces his identity that is unrelated to your relationship might ease his discomfort. Or if you think his SDM has triggered, give him a chance to calm down and rethink his response. It is important that he be calm and not rush his response. Don't beat him up for lying in his initial response or he will become defensive.

Edit: Check some of that advice above. You can't hope to have a relationship walking through a minefield. He will have to be secure in his identity before he can disarm his SDM. Perhaps sharing my experiences will allow him to realize what is going on with himself. It took me a long time to fully grasp why I behaved the way I did.

Oh, and if he does have a SDM, he does have feelings for you and does want to be in a relationship. If you catch his SDM triggering, it only confirms this.

BTW please take this advise with a huge grain of salt, I could be very wrong. Note how my lack of confidence in my advice is atypical of an INTJ. The only thing I have confidence in is my own experiences dealing with my SDM.

I like the idea of talking to him about this SDM thing, but the timing seems real bad right now. I'm a little too riled up to speak in a calm way.

  Originally Posted by peppermint13
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sigh. i wish i had advice to share. but as curiousjane and i discovered in an earlier thread, our situations sound *almost exactly the same*--and now much like yours. like they could be the same guy. it's eery, really.

kudos to you for "standing up for yourself" in a way, with that second email. i sent that first, tentative email too...and, like you, got *no response*. after that, i was so confused/embarrassed/second-guessing that i high tailed it into friend mode, (perhaps like what curiousjane is describing above--don't mean to put words in your mouth!) only to not even get a sign from him whether he wants that--or more, or less.

anyway, i was starting to feel like the crazy lady myself, too. glad to see there are at least two of us (infj!) crazies around. nice to meet you
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Yay! Another INFJ! Nice to meet you too! I saw your thread also and I totally can relate to the whole reluctance to come across as pushy. Though...lately I've been testing how far I can go.

Honestly, the only reason I think I even wrote that second email was because I'm currently under a lot of stress and I was channeling my shadow (estp). So right now I've been unusually bold and rash. I think I've taken all the advice on this thread to extremes and botched them up...cause I sent another email this morning.

As I see it, like ElstonGunn had said earlier...we are speaking two different languages. I've been presenting an emotional argument for the relationship and he's been presenting a logical argument against it. Neither of us are making any sense because basically we're not even talking about the same thing. So all that gut spilling...pointless. Either we talk about emotions or we talk about how it can work. Not both. Since he's completely tuned out on any kind of talk about dealing with the problems in communication...I figured it's time to just ask him the one question I've been skirting around for months.

So I sent him an email saying something like...you're someone that I really care about...do you feel the same way about me?

I figure it doesn't get more direct or clear than that. Maybe the timing was bad and I should've asked this when I was with him. But whatever. Consider me a guinea pig for all the other NFs out there.

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Old 07-25-2008, 03:07 PM   #34
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  Originally Posted by ricearoni
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I wonder if this is something INxJs do when they're still figuring themselves out?

I like the idea of talking to him about this SDM thing, but the timing seems real bad right now. I'm a little too riled up to speak in a calm way.

So I sent him an email saying something like...you're someone that I really care about...do you feel the same way about me?

It is hard to say that the development of an SDM is part of being INxJ. I think mine may have developed from me questioning everything and finding myself not agreeing with the majority of people. Once I was in that position, I would begin to feel threatened by "the world" constantly challenging my conclusions.... but this is getting a bit off topic.

I agree that you should probably wait and calm down. If you are upset that would increase the chance of a defensive response from him. It might be wise to broach the subject about a possible SDM by talking about your experiences in a manner that is not directed at him. Of course, he will probably be analyzing why you are talking about that and reach that conclusion before you ask him if he has one.

As far as your last communiction, if he has an SDM, I would expect him to lie about his feelings because he won't admit the truth either to you or himself. His logical arguments about why you shouldn't be together will be coming straight from his SDM.

Oh, and you are very welcome. When I read your post (and now I wish I had read it sooner) I felt compelled to share my experiences with you. The reason I felt compelled is because I had to do penance for all of the people whom I have lied to and/or hurt their feelings. I can't change the past, but I may be able to help someone else deal with that problem before it costs them like it has cost me.

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Old 07-26-2008, 09:29 AM   #35
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  Originally Posted by Vastfnup
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As far as your last communiction, if he has an SDM, I would expect him to lie about his feelings because he won't admit the truth either to you or himself. His logical arguments about why you shouldn't be together will be coming straight from his SDM.

Well so far he hasn't contacted me and I doubt that he will anytime soon. I feel almost guilty now for asking him that question. I asked it more for closure and in some sense hoping that he'd be callous enough to say no, even if it was a lie.

I'm kind of at a point where I just want to tell him, 'Forget it. You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.' Should I just do that? Or should I just wait to see what he does? I kind of just want all this tension to go away and things to just be normal again.

It seems that if he has an SDM, it's there for a reason and instead of resisting/fighting it, I should leave it alone and carry on with my own life. Actually, SDMs sound very similar to emotional walls (a friend pointed this out to me last night). I read a silly article that said the best thing to do with someone who has these walls is to do things like, offer to help the person repaint their walls, pick out wallpaper and compare walls (kind of like how you suggested I broach the subject of SDM with him). But basically it was saying, don't fight it. Just let them deal with it.

And I think that you've more than made up for your past actions with what you've shared about your past experiences.
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It's very noble of you to want to right things. But I don't think you should ever feel guilty for what you had done. You did it to protect yourself and while it was kind of sucky (ok, really sucky) for the others, it's understandable.

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Old 07-26-2008, 09:58 AM   #36
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More sympathy your way. I kind of know how you feel, one of my best friends is an INTJ I have feelings for (which he knows), and he alternately spends lots of time with me and ignores me, and does weird things like insisting on paying for meals and I'm completely confused, too.
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:01 AM   #37
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  Originally Posted by ricearoni
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Well so far he hasn't contacted me and I doubt that he will anytime soon. I feel almost guilty now for asking him that question. I asked it more for closure and in some sense hoping that he'd be callous enough to say no, even if it was a lie.

I'm kind of at a point where I just want to tell him, 'Forget it. You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.' Should I just do that? Or should I just wait to see what he does? I kind of just want all this tension to go away and things to just be normal again.

It seems that if he has an SDM, it's there for a reason and instead of resisting/fighting it, I should leave it alone and carry on with my own life. Actually, SDMs sound very similar to emotional walls (a friend pointed this out to me last night). I read a silly article that said the best thing to do with someone who has these walls is to do things like, offer to help the person repaint their walls, pick out wallpaper and compare walls (kind of like how you suggested I broach the subject of SDM with him). But basically it was saying, don't fight it. Just let them deal with it.

And I think that you've more than made up for your past actions with what you've shared about your past experiences.
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It's very noble of you to want to right things. But I don't think you should ever feel guilty for what you had done. You did it to protect yourself and while it was kind of sucky (ok, really sucky) for the others, it's understandable.

Not responding is one of his possible ways of escaping his feeling/identity crisis. I agree, telling him to not answer the question is a way of diffusing the situation. It might be a good idea that you reassure him that you don't dislike him for how he handled the situation (at least the part of him that wants to have a relationship.) After the dust settles and he no longer feels threatened you might want to bring to his attention what you think is going on from the position of a friend that wants to help him (nonthreatening) instead of as a potential mate (very threatening.)

If he becomes defensive and goes into denial, or becomes stubborn, and/or puts up walls then it might be time to move on. At least you said you peace and one day what you have told him might bear fruit. If you really care about him, then you should be happy if he overcomes he overcomes the identity crisis issue and is able to have a relationship, even if it is with someone else. Like me, he will have to live with the consequences of his actions.

I have come to realize that many people don't have as thick a skin as I have developed. I have to take responsibility for what I have done, even if I knew almost immediately after doing it that it was the wrong thing to do. I was much more unapologetic when I was younger.

Jughead, he pays for meals because it is a non-threatening way of displaying affection (not necessarily romantic affection.) Coming out and telling people your true feelings takes courage. Of course, he could be operating on the "old school" values system of men paying for meals :P

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Old 07-26-2008, 02:31 PM   #38
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  Originally Posted by Jughead
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More sympathy your way. I kind of know how you feel, one of my best friends is an INTJ I have feelings for (which he knows), and he alternately spends lots of time with me and ignores me, and does weird things like insisting on paying for meals and I'm completely confused, too.


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Jughead, thanks for the sympathy. I wish you better luck with your INTJ than I've had.

  Originally Posted by Vastfnup
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If you really care about him, then you should be happy if he overcomes he overcomes the identity crisis issue and is able to have a relationship, even if it is with someone else.

Ok, that is the most horrible thing I can possibly think of.
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I don't think that means I don't truly care for him though.

Anyway, I haven't done anything yet and there's still no response. So if anyone else thinks I should take back the question or has other ideas on what I should do, please let me know. I want to make sure that I don't do anymore stupid things.

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Old 07-26-2008, 09:23 PM   #39
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I don't think along romantic lines a heck of a lot. I was thinking in more of a Platonic affection. This is yet another example of my difficulty grasping the feelings of other people. I am sorry if that made you feel bad. You are experiencing enough difficulty already.
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Old 07-29-2008, 12:13 PM   #40
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^ No worries.
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I guess I was stuck in the present and the idea of that happening now made me sick. Maybe years (like a whole lot of years) from now, I'll be more open to the idea of it.

So he finally responded. Said that he didn't want to write without thinking and that he cared about me also and that's probably why we're both reacting to this not writing to each other thing so strongly. He says he still wants to be friends through "all this". What the heck "all this" is...I don't know.

I'm not sure what to do now. Doesn't seem like there's anything left to do. Either I just be his friend or spend some time away from him until I'm able to get over him. Or...maybe I should seriously consider moving? Is that nuts to even think about?
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Old 07-29-2008, 09:03 PM   #41
Vastfnup
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Here are some observations:

He may be disinclined to encourage you to move because things might not work out. It is a military mindset - plan for the worst, hope for the best. In other words, it is safer to let it not happen than for you to upend your life and possibly get hurt worse.

There may be an aspect about you that he is afraid will lead to some incompatibility in your relationship. This is an argument fed by the SDM which focuses on the potential perceived negatives over the positives. My SDM would keenly look for any possible incompatibility no matter how small and inflate it to massive proportions (in my mind.) My SDM was so hyper-critical that the possibility of someone actually escaping its scrutiny was nigh-impossible. With my SDM being diffused (for good, I hope) my standards have shifted and become much less severe.

You aren't nuts to consider moving. There is nothing wrong for considering all of your options. I don't think that is your best option. If you move now, that would be very threatening and you would have to navigate his SDM minefield. Unless there is some time constraint that you are fighting, it would be safer to help him through his identity issues first. After that, there will be no minefield, and you can be much more certain about the honesty of the answers he gives you. You mentioned earlier that he was pining for someone for seven years. I don't suggest that you wait that long, but if he has that kind of patience, then you might have more time than you think. If you are worried that he might meet someone else, don't forget that his SDM is still functioning and you have the benefit of knowing of its existence, giving you a huge advantage over the competition.
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With all important decisions you should, of course, weigh out the potential positives and negatives and consider the probabilities. There is vast amount of information that you cannot possibly convey to others in writing on this forum from all of the conversations you have had and the physical body language cues that you saw when you were having conversations in person. I can only hope that you come to the best decision. I wish you well.
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Old 07-30-2008, 02:57 PM   #42
ricearoni
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Pie is the food of the heroic. No pie-eating people can ever be permanently vanquished.
MBTI: INFJ
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Hmm...

Well, before my last visit, he's always been really supportive of the idea of moving. He's even offered to let me stay at his place while I searched for work. But this was before we even talked about liking each other. And since my last visit though, he hasn't said anything about me moving.

 
You mentioned earlier that he was pining for someone for seven years. I don't suggest that you wait that long, but if he has that kind of patience, then you might have more time than you think.

Actually, that was my drinking buddy who spent seven years of his life on someone who kept sending mixed signals. Sorry for the mix up, that was a sloppily written post of mine. So, nope, I can't be sure if I have any edge over anyone else.

Oh well. Thanks for the advice.
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