[rokxal]

My mother and father are both ISTJs. It took me a while to convince them to take the 100+ question MBTI test in the first place. A few of my friends are also ISTJs. This is what I gleaned over time.

ISTJ:
Value experience over theoretical: They love concrete, practical stuff (In college, they loathe classes on computer science theory. They are generally good at sports perhaps dolt on the past?). If something can't be applied, then they dub it useless. They are great at what they do, but don't count on them being insightful problemsolvers.

Law Abiding: No really, they are fairly entwined with their code of laws and ethics. They are morally uncompromising, almost to the point of being righteous. I call them intransigent, they call me arrogant heh. They also stress conventionality alot. Go talk to Asian mothers and you'll choose a college specifically get far far away.

Routine/Planning: This is like my pet-peeve. These people love to make AND FOLLOW schedules. I got nothing against planning ahead (Circumspection is good), but schedules/routines need to be lambasted. If they want to learn something, they'll systmatically study it. I'll just over-study until its mush.

Neat/Organized: ISTJ>INTJ>INTP by far. I'm a fairly tidy person by most standards, they put me and the rest of the population to shame. Go to their house and you'll be able to guess their MBTI. Home decor anyone?

[eastman]

Originally Posted by ssrprotege To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't think "frugality" is a form of "responsibility." That's not how I perceive it. Anyway, it's the reason why I reached the conclusion that counts: what is efficient, what works the best for me. Can you explain more, please? Because I know INTJ's can be like this: this is not type-dependent, I think. If you are sure of yourself, you are likely to have consistent beliefs/values, depending on your flexibility. Are you referring to blackprljinju or me? I was a bit confused - jinju is actually "she" To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Edit: oh maybe you are referring to her..

I think the differences between the INTJ and the ISTJ are a little bit exaggerated. Take the example of following rules. Extroverted Thinking allows both types to easily conform to the rules. Contrary to popular belief, not all INTJ's are social outcast with bad clothing styles and inadequate sex lives. Some of us have learned to not only conform to external standards, but also to market our abilities.

I do agree that it's much more difficult for the INTJ follow the rules. This is attributed to our dominant Introverted Intuition. This function wants to be free, and it will challenge us if we try to restrict it in any way. This certainly makes adhering to general principles difficult, but it's still very doable for the INTJ.

[Onward]

Originally Posted by eastman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think the differences between the INTJ and the ISTJ are a little bit exaggerated. Take the example of following rules. Extroverted Thinking allows both types to easily conform to the rules. Contrary to popular belief, not all INTJ's are social outcast with bad clothing styles and inadequate sex lives. Some of us have learned to not only conform to external standards, but also to market our abilities. I do agree that it's much more difficult for the INTJ follow the rules. This is attributed to our dominant Introverted Intuition. This function wants to be free, and it will challenge us if we try to restrict it in any way. This certainly makes adhering to general principles difficult, but it's still very doable for the INTJ.

As far as dressing, we basically stick to a style that is comfortable and pleasing. I buy the same pair of black, taupe and navy high-heeled pumps and wear them with quality pantsuits for work.

Actually, INTJ's have creative and passionate sex lives when they do decide to have sex lives. (We like to become competent at all that we do!)
And I think there is a huge difference between the INTJ & the ISTJ because of the N or S preference. I prefer to discuss most subjects with those types with intuition. And discussing topics is a major part of an INTJ life.





Onward added to this post, 5 minutes and 21 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by wolf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You are completely wrong. The INTJ isn't stubborn about anything. Flexible. We will exploit the physical world and are happy to deal with it. We just don't like tedium. That said, an INTJ wants something to work and wants it to work without their effort. An ISTJ is happy to keep something going that makes no sense, rather than redesign it. The caring about titles is also very important.

I agree. INTJ's are flexible. We just aren't flimsy.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Give us a solid reason for us to change our viewpoint and we will. ISTJ's follow rituals religiously. They make great bootcamp sergeants. Forward March!

[acyckowski]

	Originally Posted by ssrprotege To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't think "frugality" is a form of "responsibility." That's not how I perceive it. Anyway, it's the reason why I reached the conclusion that counts: what is efficient, what works the best for me.

No, I suspect you don't. But I'm telling you, SJ's do. Dealing with these folks, though, you have to be able to speak in their language. Trust me, they buy into the value-of-money argument.

	Originally Posted by ssprotege
	Can you explain more, please? Because I know INTJ's can be like this: this is not type-dependent, I think. If you are sure of yourself, you are likely to have consistent beliefs/values, depending on your flexibility.

Basically, you and I and most of the folks on this forum have arrived at our conclusions by taking the logic all the way back to the most basic of premises. When we end up conforming to mainstream values, it's because we either arrived at the same conclusion, or because we see some other value to conforming that outweighs the value of asserting individuality. It's my opinion that SJ's tend to start at mid-level conclusions, assert them as premises, and go from there. This means they have to juggle a large set of "core" values, which may or may not be consistent.

Using atheism/theism as an example, the NT pretty much takes it all the way back to the origins of the universe, and decides whether it was created or just kind of happened. All judgments flow from there: if I'm a theist, do I believe in the Bible? Which parts, Jewish or Christian? Baptist or Catholic? Eat meat on Fridays or "fuck it, God will understand?"

For an SJ, though, they're going to look around, see what other people believe, see what their parents taught them, and say, "Yep, I'm Catholic. And the Church says don't eat meat on Friday in Lent, or I'm going to Hell." Well, this simplification leads to inherent conflicts, as anyone who has tried to explain the Church's position on the Trinity or married priests can tell you. My SJ wife, God bless her, really and truly feels guilty if she eats meat on Friday in Lent: to her, the rules are the rules, and she doesn't question them, and she certainly doesn't question the authority of the people who make the rules.

Applying this to fashion, then, you have yourself (and me) saying, "It's just clothing. Whatever's practical, comfortable, and inexpensive will do just fine. Anybody who judges me by my clothing is not serious enough to be considered." But, SJ's live by chiches such as, "The clothes make the man," which contain a certain amount of truth but don't hold up under serious scrutiny. So, if you understand that THEY are motivated by catch-phrases, you must argue their case in their language, "A penny saved is a penny earned."

In case that didn't answer your question, here's an alternate explanation: SJ's see the world in terms of Right and Wrong, with no in between. NT's see the world in terms of Right, Wrong, and Whatever Works--that amoral in-between that is concerned only with productivity and efficiency. Since SJ's make categorical black&white decisions about utterly gray issues, they set themselves up for contradiction.

	Are you referring to blackprljinju or me? I was a bit confused - jinju is actually "she" To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Edit: oh maybe you are referring to her..

I was referring to her. My apologies, I had no idea.





acyckowski added to this post, 4 minutes and 19 seconds later...

Originally Posted by eastman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think the differences between the INTJ and the ISTJ are a little bit exaggerated. Take the example of following rules. Extroverted Thinking allows both types to easily conform to the rules. Contrary to popular belief, not all INTJ's are social outcast with bad clothing styles and inadequate sex lives. Some of us have learned to not only conform to external standards, but also to market our abilities. I do agree that it's much more difficult for the INTJ follow the rules. This is attributed to our dominant Introverted Intuition. This function wants to be free, and it will challenge us if we try to restrict it in any way. This certainly makes adhering to general principles difficult, but it's still very doable for the INTJ.

I take your point, but I would argue that for the ISTJ, process matters, and for the INTJ, product matters.

SJ's conform because that is what they do; NT's conform because it suits their purposes.

There is a surprisingly large number of NT's in the military, over 30% according to one study I read. How much more conformist do you get than the military? Not much. On the other hand, where else do you get to play three-dimensional chess with live munitions in real-time against an unknown opponent?

[Amar]

Well, according to the tests, I'm ISTJ, but always borderline on the "S". I don't choose my clothes based on what the trend is. I dress in what makes me look good, because a first impression is always important. What kind of girl wants a guy who dresses like a bum all the time? A ho, that's what.

But I definitely don't conform to rules well at all. As long as I don't perceive it as hurting anyone, then the rule is bendable at the very least.

I am extremely stubborn, but only when I am right, which is most of the time, because I use logic to argue. How can something be wrong if it worked in the past?

Idk... I'm tired of scoring on the borderline, and don't really care what I am either way. My INTP friend got me interested in this stuff, and I think it's neat how I see myself in some of these descriptions.

My advice: Don't worry to much about it. Honestly, I think saying "Hi, I'm an {MBTI}, what are you?" is comparable to saying "Hey baby, what's your sign?"

[blckprljinju]

	Originally Posted by acyckowski To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Funny thing about those ISTJ's: they're entirely consistent about their values, even when their values are inconsistent with each other. That's why my wife drives me absolutely nuts. Back to the OP's question, though, if he understands the distinction Simey was making, he's clearly not an S.

I understood what Simey said perfectly... so I guess I'm not S after all... for example, my ISTJ dad always gets angry and annoyed at the way I dress... every sunday when we go to church, he's got something to say about the way i'm dressed... and I conveniently ignore him... with a smile of course... otherwise, there'd be hell to pay.

He's not the only one though... when I acted like I cared about brands and styles, people tended to be more attracted to me enough to talk to me and things (as opposed to when I don't care... they don't come near, and they probably talk about how badly dressed I am). It was a little experiment I carried out between high school and college... very fun. I suggest y'all try it.

well, i think the reason i was confused between S and N for me was because last year, i started my career in law school, and i really had to turn to details and things, which actually didn't help me learn anything at all... but law school loves putting things in that "certain way," and using certain key words are important...

anyways... no problem about the gender confusion... ^^;;;;; most of those junk letters (and even some of my school mails) come as Mr. Jin Kim... so i'm used to it.

[True Rune]

Originally Posted by Amar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, according to the tests, I'm ISTJ, but always borderline on the "S". I don't choose my clothes based on what the trend is. I dress in what makes me look good, because a first impression is always important. What kind of girl wants a guy who dresses like a bum all the time? A ho, that's what. But I definitely don't conform to rules well at all. As long as I don't perceive it as hurting anyone, then the rule is bendable at the very least. I am extremely stubborn, but only when I am right, which is most of the time, because I use logic to argue. How can something be wrong if it worked in the past? Idk... I'm tired of scoring on the borderline, and don't really care what I am either way. My INTP friend got me interested in this stuff, and I think it's neat how I see myself in some of these descriptions. My advice: Don't worry to much about it. Honestly, I think saying "Hi, I'm an {MBTI}, what are you?" is comparable to saying "Hey baby, what's your sign?"

From what I've seen and experience, we don't really care how others think of us or how we dress. I just go for things that won't make me stick out and look decent. People think I'm goth though, even though I don't wear shirts with logos and dress pants..
I wish more people I know knew about this. Mostly S types though..