[Savagelight]

This thread is a history lesson for anyone who would like to understand what really is going on politically. Ideology has nothing to do with anything. This isn't about Democrat and Republican, it's about US loyalists and foreign backed traitors.

It begins with the
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in 1933.
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(American Slavery League depending on perspective) launched a plot to over throw FDR and institute a fascist takeover. It involves both the Nazi's and the Communists. This is not an Alex Jones conspiracy theory, this is a fact which you can watch in this
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.

They sought to overthrow the US government and install a fascist dictatorship by utilizing a general who they thought would be a military puppet
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.


The teaparty (teabaggers) aren't a new group. They are the
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(American Slavery League 2.0). The Bush family is associated with the American Liberty League. We just had a Bush Presidency, and now we have a depression. In 1933 we also had a depression, and these same families had control. Coincidence? I encourage anybody who would like to know the truth to investigate, find the correlations, find the names of the corporations, and the names of the owners of those corporations, see who profited during the last depression and who profited during this one, and read their agenda from 1933 and see if it matches with the agenda of the teaparty today.

The two families which are well known to be associated with this group are the
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family and the
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family. Read up on the history of both families and you'll find the truth. I made it easy for you, watch, read, discuss.

[Arkeph]

I think this is rife with guilt-by-association arguments--and flimsy ones at that. Fred Koch's profitable business relationship with Soviet Russia didn't prevent him from becoming--according to the article you linked to--an anti-communist zealot, a sentiment that he passed down to the brothers who actually control Koch Industries today. Does that mean the brothers are "foreign-backed traitors"? Does the sympathy for the Nazi cause of George W. Bush's grandfather have anything to do with the financial crisis? Absolutely not. For that, one would need evidence, a thing altogether different from the six-degrees-of-Hitler/Stalin game that conspiracists play constantly.

What bothers me most about this is that there are plenty of established facts that can be used to demonstrate the rough (and disturbing) trajectory of US politics and the intentions of US political leaders, yet there are many who would rather fear a fantasy (such as death panels or a fascist coup d'etat) than understand a reality, simply because that would require abandoning a self-serving and convenient perspective.

[Savagelight]

Originally Posted by Arkeph To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think this is rife with guilt-by-association arguments--and flimsy ones at that. Fred Koch's profitable business relationship with Soviet Russia didn't prevent him from becoming--according to the article you linked to--an anti-communist zealot, a sentiment that he passed down to the brothers who actually control Koch Industries today. Does that mean the brothers are "foreign-backed traitors"? Does the sympathy for the Nazi cause of George W. Bush's grandfather have anything to do with the financial crisis? Absolutely not. For that, one would need evidence, a thing altogether different from the six-degrees-of-Hitler/Stalin game that conspiracists play constantly. What bothers me most about this is that there are plenty of established facts that can be used to demonstrate the rough (and disturbing) trajectory of US politics and the intentions of US political leaders, yet there are many who would rather fear a fantasy (such as death panels or a fascist coup d'etat) than understand a reality, simply because that would require abandoning a self-serving and convenient perspective.

Whats the alternative reality you plan to present? If these people aren't responsible, who is? Name names, give your conspiracy, because this economic crisis did not happen by accident.

[Holiman]

Could it perhaps have been bad policies based on greed and self preservation where politicians worked harder to get re elected than any grander design?

[Tocsin]

I remember hearing about this a few years back, when the BBC did an expose on the matter.

The BBC online précis for their documentary program The Whitehouse Coup, says "The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans". In that documentary, author and conspiracy theorist John Buchanan said, "The investigations mysteriously turned to vapor when it comes time to call them to testify. FDR's main interest was getting the New Deal passed, and so he struck a deal in which it was agreed that the plotters would walk free if Wall Street would back off of their opposition to the New Deal and let FDR do what he wanted". The program connected major companies to the American Liberty League, formed by Al Smith (who, the program asserted, was to be the fascist ruler).

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Most Americans seem to automatically dismiss such notions: "we're a democracy - we don't have coups."

Personally, I have a sneaky suspicion that I've lived through probably five American coups, if you include back room deals, assasinations, and vote fraud.

[Savagelight]

Originally Posted by Tocsin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I remember hearing about this a few years back, when the BBC did an expose on the matter. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Most Americans seem to automatically dismiss such notions: "we're a democracy - we don't have coups." Personally, I have a sneaky suspicion that I've lived through probably five American coups, if you include back room deals, assasinations, and vote fraud.

In the 1800s we had a civil war, we also had a revolution, so why couldn't we have a revolution every century at least? Look at France, they have had countless revolutions. So this is not something to be dismissed, especially at a time of economic collapse which is usually the redflag that some conspiracy is happening.

[Arkeph]

	Originally Posted by Savagelight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If these people aren't responsible, who is?

I don't know. That's partly because the word "responsibility" is vague when referring to systemic failures that require a long, unbroken chain of decisions by many people with varying interests and varying knowledge of what was going on. It's also because there are so many people who might be implicated in fraud by a thorough investigation--if such a thing is ever undertaken.

At best, one can point fingers at people who are known to be involved in the events which ultimately caused the crisis. Assigning responsibility will have to wait until an investigation is done, and only if that turns up any definite instigators.

[Ray9]

When have we not been enslaved? I'm working 60-hour-weeks. Tomorrow I'll be in the plant from six o'clock to three o'clock just like every Saturday for as long as I can remember. What if I say no, I asked my boss? Answer: Don't let the door hit you in ass on the way to the unemployment office. Why don't you hire more people? There must be plenty of skilled people looking. Answer: All the skilled people are working. So I guess on balance I'm lucky because It's better to be a slave to your job than a slave to your government. But I am a slave nonetheless and so are you. So I ask again: When have we not been enslaved?

[Tocsin]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why don't you hire more people? There must be plenty of skilled people looking. Answer: All the skilled people are working.

That's the answer your boss gave you.

Have you stopped to consider that the unspoken truth might be "we make more profit working your ass off than we would if we hired more people."
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[Savagelight]

Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

When have we not been enslaved? I'm working 60-hour-weeks. Tomorrow I'll be in the plant from six o'clock to three o'clock just like every Saturday for as long as I can remember. What if I say no, I asked my boss? Answer: Don't let the door hit you in ass on the way to the unemployment office. Why don't you hire more people? There must be plenty of skilled people looking. Answer: All the skilled people are working. So I guess on balance I'm lucky because It's better to be a slave to your job than a slave to your government. But I am a slave nonetheless and so are you. So I ask again: When have we not been enslaved?

Slavery is unacceptable period. No it's not better to be a slave to your job because at least with the government you can move up in rank, vote new people in, etc. You can't vote for a new boss at your job. Lets face it, if you think slavery is wrong then what do you plan to do to free yourself? Just being obsequious about it is why we have slavery conditions in the first place.

Right after World War 2, we had the most free period in American History. It was just a coincidence that FDR helped bring about this liberated period of American History. It was not liberation for all races, but it was liberation for white men. One white man could work 40 hours a week and take care of a family of five including a wife. One white man could work one ob for the entire family, and still have enough money to buy a TV, a fridge, a car.

By the 70s this was over. It's just a coincidence that it ended after the assassination of the Kennedy brothers, Martin Luther King, the civil rights movement, and the 60s liberation protest period. By the late 70s everything was reversing, suddenly stuff was used to be legal was made illegal, suddenly people were working harder, longer hours, and a white male had to get a college degree if he wanted to live like his parents did. By the 1980s one degree wasn't enough, one worker wasn't enough, it took a white male and white female both with degrees to live like previous liberated generations. In the 1990s the door opened up for minorities of all races, and for women to make relatively speaking similar amounts of money in the workforce as white men, but then they raised the bar again by forcing white men to get masters degrees to keep their job at all.

By the late 1990s outsourcing became common. Now we had white men who had bachelors degrees being laid off for foreign workers who have masters degrees. And finally we have 2000 where everybody is being laid off or is at risk for being laid off unless they have a masters degree and even with a masters degree they aren't completely safe. The dollar just isn't worth what it once was. If you look at your situation as slavery, it did not happen overnight. They attacked and crushed the unions in the 70s to diminish the power of workers like you. They trained and educated workers overseas to replace you knowing those workers will work harder and longer for cheaper than you. It's part of a long term plan to make the US worker completely irrelevant.

What jobs have they created for the highschool graduate white male who could once support a family of 4-5 people? Retail and service jobs, like Walmart, McDonalds, etc.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by Tocsin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Most Americans seem to automatically dismiss such notions: "we're a democracy - we don't have coups." Personally, I have a sneaky suspicion that I've lived through probably five American coups, if you include back room deals, assassinations, and vote fraud.

It's a shame how effective the combination of propaganda and entertainment are in keeping people effectively docile. With a truly critical, inquisitive majority, the world would work in a drastically different way.

The means are there, now more than ever. People just don't have the mental clarity and energy to use them. Here and there, there are pockets of intense clarity, but these are almost unequivocally undermined from the top. (Cointelpro being a great (and indeed, almost unequivocally overlooked) example of how this works in the United States.)

[yoginimama]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The means are there, now more than ever. People just don't have the mental clarity and energy to use them.

Yup, and guess why--it's exactly that need to work longer and harder just to keep from falling behind. Exhausted people are much less likely to be able to clearly assess what's going on and find the wherewithal to do something about it. And even if they did, where's the time? They're working gonzo hours, they have to clean the house and prepare meals and shop, they have to raise their kids....

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by Tocsin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's the answer your boss gave you. Have you stopped to consider that the unspoken truth might be "we make more profit working your ass off than we would if we hired more people." To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not to mention, Ray, have you stopped to consider that your work schedule is the result of the much-vaunted "free market system"? This is exactly what happens when gov't plays little role as "umpire" in the economy.

---------- Post added 10-23-2010 at 08:57 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Savagelight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's part of a long term plan to make the US worker completely irrelevant.

Well, that's a plan that guaranteed to get karma to come back and bite the planners in the arse. If we're irrelevant, we ain't buying what they're selling.

	What jobs have they created for the highschool graduate white male who could once support a family of 4-5 people? Retail and service jobs, like Walmart, McDonalds, etc.

To be fair, a few additional points:

Quite a number of those jobs were lost to automation.

Also, we lived high when we did because other countries were not developing, but now they are. We'll have to compete and not just rest on our laurels like we were able to do in the 50s and 60s.

Another thing that harmed our economy that is rarely mentioned is that S. America was a huge market for us. But they had political and economic problems and could no longer afford to buy what we were selling, so we took a hit on that.

Well, I'm sure there's a plethora of other reasons, but I have errands.

Probably you should pray that oil continues to be traded in dollars. That gives us quite an advantage economically. If anyone succeeds in removing that (the Chinese were certainly trying this year), we're going to take quite a hit.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yup, and guess why--it's exactly that need to work longer and harder just to keep from falling behind. Exhausted people are much less likely to be able to clearly assess what's going on and find the wherewithal to do something about it. And even if they did, where's the time? They're working gonzo hours, they have to clean the house and prepare meals and shop, they have to raise their kids....

Yes! This is what's holding me back from committing to the house (=mortgage) & kids path. I work 32 hours, and already I experience this tiredness, this coming home in the evening and just wanting to chill and not worry myself too much. These are the perfect ingredients for docile apathy.

	Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, that's a plan that guaranteed to get karma to come back and bite the planners in the arse. If we're irrelevant, we ain't buying what they're selling.

I'm more pessimistic. The few times that this really happened (think bolsheviks and the Paris commune) were quickly subverted and/or smashed, and are now either forgotten or remembered in an entirely wrong light. There was potential in the 60s in America for instance, but a couple of shots put a stop to that. (Look to the left of this post for one part of that equation..)

[Savagelight]

Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's a shame how effective the combination of propaganda and entertainment are in keeping people effectively docile. With a truly critical, inquisitive majority, the world would work in a drastically different way. The means are there, now more than ever. People just don't have the mental clarity and energy to use them. Here and there, there are pockets of intense clarity, but these are almost unequivocally undermined from the top. (Cointelpro being a great (and indeed, almost unequivocally overlooked) example of how this works in the United States.)

Even the President was vulnerable to the cointel pro.
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.

---------- Post added 10-23-2010 at 06:30 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not to mention, Ray, have you stopped to consider that your work schedule is the result of the much-vaunted "free market system"? This is exactly what happens when gov't plays little role as "umpire" in the economy. ---------- Post added 10-23-2010 at 08:57 AM ---------- Well, that's a plan that guaranteed to get karma to come back and bite the planners in the arse. If we're irrelevant, we ain't buying what they're selling. To be fair, a few additional points: Quite a number of those jobs were lost to automation. Also, we lived high when we did because other countries were not developing, but now they are. We'll have to compete and not just rest on our laurels like we were able to do in the 50s and 60s. Another thing that harmed our economy that is rarely mentioned is that S. America was a huge market for us. But they had political and economic problems and could no longer afford to buy what we were selling, so we took a hit on that. Well, I'm sure there's a plethora of other reasons, but I have errands. Probably you should pray that oil continues to be traded in dollars. That gives us quite an advantage economically. If anyone succeeds in removing that (the Chinese were certainly trying this year), we're going to take quite a hit.

We are also the most competitive country in the world, we work the longest hours and with the least vacations, but we don't have free education, and we have a government doing everything it can to undercut, undercover, discourage, and break the competitive American worker. Most of us would be willing to go to college for as long as it takes if the government would pay for it. Education used to be free, now it's not. In those countries we must compete with their education is free, and on top of that their governments are using state owned corporations to compete with our small businesses which closes the small business owner out of the free market.

---------- Post added 10-23-2010 at 06:33 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not to mention, Ray, have you stopped to consider that your work schedule is the result of the much-vaunted "free market system"? This is exactly what happens when gov't plays little role as "umpire" in the economy. ---------- Post added 10-23-2010 at 08:57 AM ---------- Well, that's a plan that guaranteed to get karma to come back and bite the planners in the arse. If we're irrelevant, we ain't buying what they're selling. To be fair, a few additional points: Quite a number of those jobs were lost to automation. Also, we lived high when we did because other countries were not developing, but now they are. We'll have to compete and not just rest on our laurels like we were able to do in the 50s and 60s. Another thing that harmed our economy that is rarely mentioned is that S. America was a huge market for us. But they had political and economic problems and could no longer afford to buy what we were selling, so we took a hit on that. Well, I'm sure there's a plethora of other reasons, but I have errands. Probably you should pray that oil continues to be traded in dollars. That gives us quite an advantage economically. If anyone succeeds in removing that (the Chinese were certainly trying this year), we're going to take quite a hit.

There is a rebellion in France right now. It's just rioting, probably managed by the government to allow the French population to vent out their aggression without doing any real damage.

---------- Post added 10-23-2010 at 06:48 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, that's a plan that guaranteed to get karma to come back and bite the planners in the arse. If we're irrelevant, we ain't buying what they're selling.

That is why the planners have hired millions of mercenaries funded by billions if not trillions in money from foreign countries, and in some cases from the economic collapse itself. Yes it's possible that some of these mercenaries work in the interest of the US government, but is the US government working in the interest of the US citizen, and if the US government goes bankrupt then what?

Now those tax cuts for the top 1% begin to make sense. They don't want to pay for the government because the government is not protecting them, and is not under their control. They'd rather a world where we all have to either pay for private armies, bodyguards and mercenaries, become the private army, bodyguards and mercenaries, or be the slaves. In this world everyone smart, strong, and loyal will be encouraged, forced, coerced into working for them, the rest will not be working at all.

If you want to know what you can do to protect liberty in the USA, support the civilian military, support the business owners who care about the American worker and the values America stood for, hire the workers who can be trusted. This would mean we'd be better off hiring 1 American worker rather than hiring 10 foreign workers. Yes the foreign worker can help grow the business, but over time these foreign workers will gain influence over the industry. At this point the only industry Americans have left are the military weapons industries, and this is partially because of government involvement, so we cannot continue to assume the free market is always going to work in Americas favor.

[Ray9]

Originally Posted by Savagelight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Slavery is unacceptable period. No it's not better to be a slave to your job because at least with the government you can move up in rank, vote new people in, etc. You can't vote for a new boss at your job. Lets face it, if you think slavery is wrong then what do you plan to do to free yourself? Just being obsequious about it is why we have slavery conditions in the first place. Right after World War 2, we had the most free period in American History. It was just a coincidence that FDR helped bring about this liberated period of American History. It was not liberation for all races, but it was liberation for white men. One white man could work 40 hours a week and take care of a family of five including a wife. One white man could work one ob for the entire family, and still have enough money to buy a TV, a fridge, a car. By the 70s this was over. It's just a coincidence that it ended after the assassination of the Kennedy brothers, Martin Luther King, the civil rights movement, and the 60s liberation protest period. By the late 70s everything was reversing, suddenly stuff was used to be legal was made illegal, suddenly people were working harder, longer hours, and a white male had to get a college degree if he wanted to live like his parents did. By the 1980s one degree wasn't enough, one worker wasn't enough, it took a white male and white female both with degrees to live like previous liberated generations. In the 1990s the door opened up for minorities of all races, and for women to make relatively speaking similar amounts of money in the workforce as white men, but then they raised the bar again by forcing white men to get masters degrees to keep their job at all. By the late 1990s outsourcing became common. Now we had white men who had bachelors degrees being laid off for foreign workers who have masters degrees. And finally we have 2000 where everybody is being laid off or is at risk for being laid off unless they have a masters degree and even with a masters degree they aren't completely safe. The dollar just isn't worth what it once was. If you look at your situation as slavery, it did not happen overnight. They attacked and crushed the unions in the 70s to diminish the power of workers like you. They trained and educated workers overseas to replace you knowing those workers will work harder and longer for cheaper than you. It's part of a long term plan to make the US worker completely irrelevant. What jobs have they created for the highschool graduate white male who could once support a family of 4-5 people? Retail and service jobs, like Walmart, McDonalds, etc.

We need to be very careful here not to lose the middle class because this is what sets us apart from the rest of the world. The American middle class, made up of average people with moderate education, is the foundation of our uniqueness and our greatness. Today there is an assault on the middle class by the elite who have always espoused the tenets of socialism/communism. The Democratic Party is infested with this notion particularly in the field of education. Our nation is quickly becoming second rate because of credentialed deadwood that has as its primary goal the destruction of the middle class.

[LaoTzu]

It's really sad how people like Ray can be so thoroughly bamboozled into thinking a social safety-net is what's threatening the middle class in the USA...

and fucking hilarious.


God Bless Canada.

[Savagelight]

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's really sad how people like Ray can be so thoroughly bamboozled into thinking a social safety-net is what's threatening the middle class in the USA... and fucking hilarious. God Bless Canada.

LaoTzu no it's clear. Ray is shilling for the elites in an attempt to keep his job at his factory.

If he read any of my post at all he would know I made clear this is not a Democrat or Republican issue. It's not an ideological issue. Socialism, Capitalism or any ism has nothing to do with this issue. This is an issue of what is best for the middle class, some socialism is good for the middle class and some capitalism is good for the middle class, the wrong kind is bad for the middle class.

Free education is good. Free healthcare is good. Social security is good. Food stamps are good. Financial aid is good. A lot of different programs are good for the middle class.

Of course you have farm subsidies which are bad. You have bailouts which are bad. You have government control of industries which is bad. You have over regulation which is bad.

Ideology should never trump reason. Do what works for you. If a specific socialist program benefits you then fight to keep or extend it. If you received financial aid or food stamps or anything, then fight to keep it. If you never received any benefit in your entire life then you probably are the elite so of course you'll want to get rid of all social programs along with all the people who rely on them.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm more pessimistic. The few times that this really happened (think bolsheviks and the Paris commune) were quickly subverted and/or smashed, and are now either forgotten or remembered in an entirely wrong light.

Oh, I wasn't thinking of that. I was more thinking when we're all reduced to owing our souls to the company store again, the businesses here are going to have to find other markets, and that would be out of the country.

	There was potential in the 60s in America for instance, but a couple of shots put a stop to that. (Look to the left of this post for one part of that equation..)

I <3 your avi.

---------- Post added 10-24-2010 at 12:13 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We need to be very careful here not to lose the middle class because this is what sets us apart from the rest of the world. The American middle class, made up of average people with moderate education, is the foundation of our uniqueness and our greatness. Today there is an assault on the middle class by the elite who have always espoused the tenets of socialism/communism.

This was the best comedy I read all day. The American middle class is being squeezed down into the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum because our policy insists shifting money upwards. That isn't a socialist/communist sort of policy. Try "oligarchy" instead.

Hey, maybe we should try
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. We couldn't end up with a much worst gov't than we get with our current system.

	The Democratic Party is infested with this notion particularly in the field of education. Our nation is quickly becoming second rate because of credentialed deadwood that has as its primary goal the destruction of the middle class.

Where'd you get this? A Bazooka bubble gum wrapper?