[Minerva]

	Originally Posted by Functianalyst To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For me personally, my 8th function is Fi since I dominate with Ti, but the 8th function as you say for Te is Fe. I think we're on the same page, but I understood the part that you quoted as to imply that a Te dominant type can develop their Fe.

Ahhh! Now I see what you are saying. Yes, as I said that it is possible to develop your 8th function. Of course these shadow functions do show up in their negative forms when an individual is under very stressful situations. However, you can develop them in a positive way if you do lots of self analysis as Amp ({{{Amp}}}) was saying. You can also observe how others use these functions and in my (not expert) opinion do thought experiments and active imagination too...

BTW... It is nice to "meet" you Functianalysis. I don't think we have exchanged ideas directly before. (See... Fe does not have to be difficult!
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[Functianalyst]

Originally Posted by Amphorian To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yes I am aware functions aren't emotions or logic. I meant that my emotions were so severe that I had no other way of processing them except to learn a whole new, strange and out of my element process to help sort them. Coming out of that though I began also to utilize these processes I found odd to a degree. I however do a high level of inner self analysis. I make note of everything and where it comes from. Including the processes that I'm using. So I'm fully aware of differences inside of me and why they are there.

Maybe I am missing something Amph, are you processing your emotions, asking why you are feeling this way or are you analyzing the principles of why you may be feeling that way? Either way, I don't think Fi would come into play here. Maybe you can give me an example to better help understand and I do self analysis (Ti) and introspection (all introverting functions), but I generally do not know what is important to me especially if someone else's needs come into play. Generally people using Fi can distinguish what is important to them, even if another person comes into play. We Ti dominant types will always take the other person's needs into consideration more than our own (Fe).

Originally Posted by Minerva To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ahhh! Now I see what you are saying. Yes, as I said that it is possible to develop your 8th function. Of course these shadow functions do show up in their negative forms when an individual is under very stressful situations. However, you can develop them in a positive way if you do lots of self analysis as Amp ({{{Amp}}}) was saying. You can also observe how others use these functions and in my (not expert) opinion do thought experiments and active imagination too... BTW... It is nice to "meet" you Functianalysis. I don't think we have exchanged ideas directly before. (See... Fe does not have to be difficult! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. )

Nice meeting you as well. Were you always ISFJ (hmmm now that is more odd than people claiming a surprise that as ISTP I have a grasp of this subject)? Sorry I will have to disagree that we can develop our 8th function Amph and Minerva, although maybe our connotations of the word developed may need to be examined.

I would not say that develop means being conscious as Jung proposes since only the dominant function can be conscious, everything subordinate is unconscious. But since both Fe and Te are used to judge the outside world in the same manner, I would think that any use of extraverted judging would naturally subcumb to the dominant function as would the tertiary although it shares the same orientation. Again when I introvert thinking, it's as natural as breathing to the point that I can recognize my Se, Ni and Fe. But Ti is so natural I don't recognize it always. It just is and I just do it. So anything that would try to take the place of Ti in the introverted orientation would instantly fail unless I consciously allowed it to occur. Yet even then for me, Fi would so far down the food change to be virtually non-existent since I will naturally and without conscious use Ti.

I would equate it to someone saying quickly throw me the ball. You would not use your left hand, if you dominate with your right, or vice-versa. You would throw it with the dominant hand without thought. If the person said quickly throw it to me with your opposite hand, well that would take some conscious effort but it would still be awkward since you're using the same function (throwing the ball) but with something that is foreign to you. For any idiot having nothing else to do but say yeah but I am ambidextrous, it does not apply here. We're talking about someone who clearly dominates with one or the other hand.

[Amphorian]

That's the thing. I actually do both of what you describe, though more so Ti and Fe.

[Minerva]

	Originally Posted by Functianalyst
	Nice meeting you as well. Were you always ISFJ (hmmm now that is more odd than people claiming a surprise that as ISTP I have a grasp of this subject)? Sorry I will have to disagree that we can develop our 8th function Amph and Minerva, although maybe our connotations of the word developed may need to be examined.

Does this mean that ISFJs can't grasp this subject
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or is it that most of my counterparts are not interested in this subject matter?

When they said developed I don't think they meant for me to become a regular user of iN...
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I think that being aware of it and not automatically discarding it, but exploring and using it to some degree albeit small is enough... After all it is the 8th function...

Originally Posted by Functianalyst

I would not say that develop means being conscious as Jung proposes since only the dominant function can be conscious, everything subordinate is unconscious. But since both Fe and Te are used to judge the outside world in the same manner, I would think that any use of extraverted judging would naturally subcumb to the dominant function as would the tertiary although it shares the same orientation. Again when I introvert thinking, it's as natural as breathing to the point that I can recognize my Se, Ni and Fe. But Ti is so natural I don't recognize it always. It just is and I just do it. So anything that would try to take the place of Ti in the introverted orientation would instantly fail unless I consciously allowed it to occur. Yet even then for me, Fi would so far down the food change to be virtually non-existent since I will naturally and without conscious use Ti. I would equate it to someone saying quickly throw me the ball. You would not use your left hand, if you dominate with your right, or vice-versa. You would throw it with the dominant hand without thought. If the person said quickly throw it to me with your opposite hand, well that would take some conscious effort but it would still be awkward since you're using the same function (throwing the ball) but with something that is foreign to you. For any idiot having nothing else to do but say yeah but I am ambidextrous, it does not apply here. We're talking about someone who clearly dominates with one or the other hand.

I must have missed something... Only my Si is conscious? Ummm... can you explain that to me? I thought that for most people both the dominant and the secondary function are conscious. The tertiary could also break into the conscious realm if recognized and accessed enough. The inferior function is most likely where the unconscious "begins"

Yes the secondary function is under the control of the heroic, but it may or may not be enslaved. When I say enslaved I mean that all other cognitive processes are made to serve the dominant one. In the case of the ISTP then, your Se etc. does nothing but feeds directly into your Ti.

[HIDE="Enslaved functions for the ISTP"]A few of the tell tail signs are:

i) The ISTP resists and rejects anything that doesn't support their own experiential understanding of the world. If conflict arises between their own way of life and something that they encounter, they don't perceive that "something" in an objective sense. Rather, they reject it to avoid conflict and to preserve the sanctity of their inner world.

ii) They choose to surround themselves with people who support their own way of life, and reject people who think or live differently.

iii) They may unknowingly or uncaringly hurt people's feelings.

iv) They are unable to effectively communicate their inner world.


The dominant function of the ISTP is Introverted Thinking. This function is supported closely and importantly by the auxiliary function of Se. Se perceives the world and sends information into the psyche, where it is processed by Introverted Thinking. An ISTP who uses their Se function in a diminished way is one who chooses to restrict their environment to people and places that support their favored activities. In such a way, the ISTP prevents his or her psyche from having to consider data from differing viewpoints and lifestyles, and thus promotes a lifestyle that allows them to frequently exercise and enhance their known tactile skills. It serves their immediate needs, which are the primary focus of the ISTP. However, it also promotes a lifestyle that is essentially self-centered and narrow in focus. It solves short-term problems, and creates long-term ones.

Hurting others is because of underdeveloped Fe. However, a well developed Se can stand in if it used to they can perceive F type expectations in the external world. They don't have to use Fe to understand how to act in situations. They can perceive the expected behavior from their Se function. However, if they are restricting their incoming data to only those things that support their existing way of life, then they are not learning from Se at all. They are not growing their understanding of social and intimate behaviors - rather, they are reducing the importance of this type of understanding to their own life. In these situations, ISTPs shy away from very close personal relationships, and feel more vulnerable and less sure of themselves in situations that involve expressing their emotions.

The italics is yet another example of what I said in my first post. The OP isn't using Fe. Instead he is using Ni.
[/HIDE]

But yes I agree that the 8th function is so far down that it may just be nonexistent and it won't even matter...

[Amphorian]

@Min: That sounds like an immature or undeveloped ISTP in the description. Se is suppose to feed Ti so it may adjust and grow with knowledge. Meaning the inside system will be constantly reworked, especially to become more efficient if the ISTP is mature.

[Minerva]

Yep, Amp! Exactly... It is it an immature or undeveloped ISTP. But it can happen to any type, of course, if the dominant function overshadows the others. I was trying to make the point that when I say enslaved, I don't mean just dominant.

[Functianalyst]

	Originally Posted by Minerva To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does this mean that ISFJs can't grasp this subject To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. or is it that most of my counterparts are not interested in this subject matter?

The latter of course. But if you are a very clear introvert then I would not be surprised since you do use Ti only second to ITP and ETP types.

Originally Posted by Minerva To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

When they said developed I don't think they meant for me to become a regular user of iN... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I think that being aware of it and not automatically discarding it, but exploring and using it to some degree albeit small is enough... After all it is the 8th function... But yes I agree that the 8th function is so far down that it may just be nonexistent and it won't even matter...

I think we’re still on the same page and in agreement Minerva. I think we are capable of developing our four top functions i.e., Si-Fe-Ti-Ne. But the remaining four would be somewhat redundant since the four aforementioned do what the shadow functions do.

	Originally Posted by Minerva To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I must have missed something... Only my Si is conscious? Ummm... can you explain that to me? I thought that for most people both the dominant and the secondary function are conscious. The tertiary could also break into the conscious realm if recognized and accessed enough. The inferior function is most likely where the unconscious "begins".

I refer to conscious and unconscious in the sense that Jung claims the conscious of the introvert is subjective and protective from the outer world. He considers the extraverting attitude to be unconscious. In that sense my Ni and your Ti may be more conscious than our extraverting functions, including the auxiliary function. Your Si is dominant and no other function can equal it, even the auxiliary function. Going back to Jung’s take on the auxiliary function:

In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that such pure types occur at all frequently in actual practice. They are as it were only broad family-portraits, which sum up in a cumulative image the common and therefore typical characters, stressing these disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced… … Accurate investigation of the individual case consistently reveals the fact that, in conjunction with the most differentiated function, another function of secondary importance, and therefore of inferior differentiation in consciousness, is constantly present, and is a -- relatively determining factor. [p. 514]

This is what I meant by conscious. He is alluding to the auxiliary function which will be of a different attitude than the dominant function, but always present. I think the argument that the development of the auxiliary being a given is overrated. Somewhere Myers-Briggs’ assertion that we must develop it became lost in translation that it is developed. Going back to Jung:

	For the sake of clarity let us again recapitulate: The products of all the functions can be conscious, but we speak of the consciousness of a function only when not merely its application is at the disposal of the will, but when at the same time its principle is decisive for the orientation of consciousness.

Something that I have given a lot of thought to is why I prefer to alternate between my Ti and Ni. There is a theory floating around that when I alternate between the dominant and tertiary functions, I create an unhealthy loop. Although it can be unhealthy if we I don’t see this being unhealthy, but a natural state of a particular type.

Jung purposely did not write descriptions of the types because he says the number would be infinite. Jung said that he would have to start at 256 or 320 different types and go up. I admit that I am reading a thread of meaning, but he seems to imply from his first statement that pure types do not occur in actual practice and our functions are so varied that a cumulative image of a typical type is impossible or as he put it stressed disproportionately. In other words the degree that we use even our dominant function followed by the others will be so different for each individual that even thinking you can read a person’s type is futile. I would not know another ISTP if I met one, unless I prescribe to stereotypes.
To sum up Jung and your inquiry, he says:

	This absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, since the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily yield a different orientation, which would at least partially contradict the first.

i.e., if my Se or your Fe were equal to one another, then we would no longer be ISTP and ISFJs, instead some form of ESTP and ESFJ or something in between. So no, the auxiliary function is not a given and it’s plausible that depending on your strength of orientation to introversion, you may be more prone to alternating between the Si and Ti and not developing your Fe. However since the world forces us to interact with it in some fashion, it’s clear that you do develop your Fe and I my Se, if only minimally to cope outside of the self.

[Minerva]

Quite interesting!!! I know I use Si and Ti when I look within and evaluate myself and others and situations of significance. However, I use Fe to communicate with others and the world at large. I do believe that my Fe is well developed but my Si is still my dominant function. Also my Ti seems to be much more developed than the other ISFJs that I have met, including my mother. In fact my Ti is much, much more developed than hers. In fact sometimes I love being in a Si-Ti loop since it makes me a more rational creature. The thing about it is that you must balance this loop with the Fe-Ne... My Ne is not as developed as I would like but I am working on it.

My Fe is really great.... I see no problem in comforting people or telling them no. I also have no problem communicating my ideas and feelings (my inner world). Being able to access Ti makes it quite easy for me to frame things in a logical way in a series of easy to follow steps (Si is also utilized here). In fact it takes me no time at all to formulate answers. For instance when I am playing the Game Threads or writing my fictional story I create entire sentences before I type and then I rework them, edit them and sometimes discard them for others before I even finish the sentence I am working on at this moment. I have been doing this even as I write here.

[Desmond Linus]

There's a good analogy about the hierarchy of functions. Imagine a family in a car. One parent is driving (Dominant), the other is in the passenger seat (Auxillary), a five-year-old is in the backseat (Tertiary) along with his baby brother (Inferior). The idea is that as we get older, the functions develop, but maintain the same hierarchy. Using the above example, the parents are older, but still driving and in the front, whereas the tertiary function is now 14, and inferior is 9.

So even though the functions are in the same hierarchy, they've developed, making us more well-rounded as we get older. Take an ISFP for instance. Fi and Se are still the strongest functions, but as they get older they find it easier to use Ni and Te. They think about the meanings of things more, and will use objective analysis a little more.