[WaeV]

	Originally Posted by Lil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So please clarify... I thought that if you gave an INTJ "time to stew" s/he would conclude that you were no longer interested. In short, there doesn't appear to be a way to influence the INTJ to come forward/initiate.

Huh? That's not what I meant. The dynamics between two INTJs probably would have been different enough to not result in a similar outcome. The possibility of a "time to stew" decision is not at all certain, but could be influenced by an assumption that others are like oneself.

The thought process would be something like:
Party 'B' says "I'm not ready yet."
Party 'A' says "Ok."
*time passes*
Party 'B' says "Ok, I'm ready now."
Party 'A' says "Great!"

Where party 'A' is the INTJ expecting the other person to eventually come around. It would be very improbable that if both parties were INTJ that they would both end up waiting for the other person.


The above doesn't seem very clear in rereading it. Think of it this way: If party 'B' says "I'm not ready for a serious relationship yet," this essentially means "I don't want to spend as much time / intimacy / closeness with you as I could be." While two infatuated people usually can't get enough of each other, now there's an invisible upper limit imposed, and party 'A' has to worry about crossing this limit. The easiest way to avoid crossing the limit for fear of insulting/violating/annoying/inconveniencing the other is to aim for well below the perceived limit.

[Lil]

To aim for below the limit without actually disappearing, right? And you find this limit by trial and error?

[WaeV]

	Originally Posted by Lil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And you find this limit by trial and error?

Analysis.

Edit: Also, I'm sometimes beaten back by butterflies.

[Tyrant Soup]

	Originally Posted by Lil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What about the sitch where the OP wanted MORE than you did- not that they weren't interested or that they friend-zoned you, but that they wanted the romantic R and you didn't? Would that "scare you off"? I believe that's what the OP is suggesting happened. Not that she wasn't interested, but that she was too interested.

If I was friends with her, I would not just disappear like that. I consider avoidance to be undisciplined and irresponsible. I would simply convey my lack of interest as gently as possible to avoid hurting her feelings.

I would only cut someone off if I was offended or hurt somehow.

[WaeV]

Didn't see this before.

	Originally Posted by Lil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What about the sitch where the OP wanted MORE than you did- not that they weren't interested or that they friend-zoned you, but that they wanted the romantic R and you didn't? Would that "scare you off"? I believe that's what the OP is suggesting happened. Not that she wasn't interested, but that she was too interested.

This happened to me in a way. I just said 'no' when I wasn't comfortable. I didn't request a time-out or break or anything. That would not have fulfilled my goal of making her happy.

[Near]

The replies in this topic seem to all have the same pattern which I can also relate to.
I am in a relationship right now with an INFJ and since the beginning it has been pretty stressful for me. I have tried to make it work but it has been very confusing for me. It was going well before we really got to know each other and then one day we were having a debate and he seemed to consistently contradict himself (although he is intelligent) to which I obviously pointed out the contradictions. He then got defensive and started changing around what he was saying to fit his previous statements telling me that my perception was completely off and then when I pointed out that he was becoming defensive for no reason he stated that he was not. It seems as if I have a hard time dealing with emotions because they contradict what I see as being the actual truth of the situation. My partner is caring but I believe he likes listening to himself more than actually to what I have to contribute. I have brought this up many times and he told me that my perception is wrong and he really enjoys listening to me but whenever I try to bring up a topic of debate it is clear that he cannot take criticism nor can he deal with my brashness (which I have also stated to him). I don't really want to change for him (although I have tried but only fell into a depressed state since that led to extreme cognitive dissonance which is still present since I am still in the relationship) since I don't think I am doing anything wrong so it seems that after six months of this ongoing struggle I am going to tell him I do not want to date anymore. I feel this odd feeling of regret as I have led him on I think by procrastinating on doing this however I think it is best to do this.

Edit: No more than 10 minutes after typing this I feel conflicted yet again and the fact that I am continuously feeling conflicted about this is an alarm to me, I do not know what I want to do.

[Lil]

Near, that constant ping-pong ball of conflict is really a bitch, isn't it?
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


You said: "It seems as if I have a hard time dealing with emotions because they contradict what I see as being the actual truth of the situation."

If all is working well, "emotions" and truth will not be in conflict. What you describe with this guy is a situation where he contradicts himself and you point that out and he gets pissed and defensive. That is not an example of "emotions contradicting the truth of the situation." That is an example of a person who cannot stand criticism.

When my INTJ friend points out how I contradict myself, I LOVE it. I love his cool rationality and how it helps ME clarify my thinking and my presentation. I love that he will listen to my rants (not about him- I don't rant about him) and when I back off a bit and sort of apologize or backpedal, he will step up and justify my heated emotion by pointing out the logic hidden behind my ranting... I love this about him.

So don't generalize that it is "emotion" that is making your guy behave like an a$$hole.

Regarding the ping-pong effect, sometimes if you don't know what to do (i.e., break up or not), it's best to do nothing until you do know. Eventually, if you need to end it, you will know that. Until you know it for sure, don't force an action. You can certainly have less contact with him and let that help a course of action reveal itself.

[InfiniteLoop]

Originally Posted by EnchantedOrchid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've met an INTJ online a few months ago and we had a very nice, friendly, flirtatious conversation everytime. Getting to know each other was fun. I was taking my time and I know he also was taking his time. We had this idea of taking it to the next level- being a COUPLE (he laid his plans, but I was passive because it was still premature) however, we have decided to just wait for a little bit longer for us to get to know each other really well. We were good friends and have agreed to remain that way with or without the "committed" relationship.

Then he obviously saw interest in you. You must have done something right to catch his attention. INFJs and INTJs can actually make very good couples if both know the other's limits.

	He seemed to be the most caring and sweetest person I have ever known which is contrary to what I've learned from this forum, (correct me if i'm wrong) that INTJs lack emotion and are generally cold. This confuses me actually. He seemed to be a very strong INTJ and may be unlikely to be emotional.

This is a common misconception with INTJs - that we are entirely unfeeling and lack emotion. We can actually be quite emotional, it's just very unlikely that we'll share them with another person. This is why you might be bawling your eyes out at the end of a showing of The Phantom of the Opera, for example, and your INTJ boyfriend or buddy might just say "that's very sad" or "that's rather sweet". It's not that s/he isn't just as touched by the story, it's that s/he doesn't really logically see it as anything to cry about. I never show excitement, for example, even if I am extremely excited, and I generally find it difficult to cry in front of other people, because I would rather be left alone. Very strong INTJs tend to hide it more, because the feeling part of who they are is secondary to logic and thought. Because of this tendency to hide emotions more (and we just do it, there's no real reason for it, it's kind of like breathing to us), we can come off as cold to NFs and aloof or shy to Extroverts. It is not uncommon, however, for an INTJ to cry at a movie or at music if it really does hit that one little touchy-feely spot, the F. Just like every person reacts to a spider differently, every INTJ has different things that touch or move them in some way, even if it isn't as strongly or obvious as it is with NFs. f an INTJ finds a relationship to be worth their time and effort, they'll pursue it. We just don't do things that aren't worth our time. And we can be extremely defensive of those that we do trust, such as friends and family members - or at least I am. And that is the difference between us and a sociopath, for example: while sociopaths really don't feel anything or have very minimal emotions related to themselves, INTJs do feel and may feel just as deeply as an NF, but they are much less likely to show it simply because it doesn't make any logical sense to show emotion that strongly.

	During the latter part, I was getting mixed signals from him. Then he eventually shut off for unknown reasons. I am the type who would back off almost IMMEDIATELY. From then on, I knew I needed to just move on and forget about the person.

It's possible that your INTJ friend simply felt that you were getting too clingy or too close. He may have been interested only in being friends, and he interpreted your deep caring as an NF not as deep caring, but as you going 'too fast' or being clingy instead. It isn't that he didn't love you, it's just that INTJs are horribly sensitive to those that get a little too close. We tend to like our space in relationships and generally get into a relationship not for closeness but for intellectual companionship. If he shut off, it's probably because you were edging into his 'bubble'; going too deep too fast. It's very good that you are the kind of person that knows when to back off; if you really did send him the wrong signal and gave him the impression that you were being clingy, then backing off is exactly the right thing to do. If he was giving mixed signals, it could be simply that he didn't know how to react and didn't like it. Quite simply, the robot's radar was jammed. XD

	I was wondering if its common to INTJs to give mixed signals and then cut off.

That honestly depends on the INTJ. Usually, INTJs are pretty aware of what they want to do and how they're going to do it, and when they don't know what to do, they get frustrated. Very frustrated. It's kind of like a computer misinterpreting data and then overheating. If an INTJ doesn't like or can't interpret the signals you're giving him, he's likely to shut down simply out of frustration. There's another possible reason for you.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[EnchantedOrchid]

	Originally Posted by Winklepicker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think I have been in shoes similar to your guy's shoes several times. Self-preservation kicks in, and while my initial (and sincere) immediate response is often to suggest the idea of us being friends, I find I try to sever him from my heart as much as possible...

I somehow share this kind of behavior but I think the only difference is, I try as much as possible to 'save' or work out things just before I back off. I dont know if it is still wise to keep my contacts with my INTJ. Maybe the best thing to do is find another INTJ. haha! Kidding.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 04:40 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Lil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What about the sitch where the OP wanted MORE than you did- not that they weren't interested or that they friend-zoned you, but that they wanted the romantic R and you didn't? Would that "scare you off"? I believe that's what the OP is suggesting happened. Not that she wasn't interested, but that she was too interested.

You got it Lil! Although I was indeed very interested in him, I wasnt that clingy or needy. In fact, he is worried everytime I wouldnt return his calls specially when I am so occupied with work.I dont want to be attached to him too soon as well so I have to keep my boundaries. After a few months of knowing him, I thought it was wise to loosen up a bit. But just when I was 'showing' interest in him, he started giving brush off signals.

---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 05:16 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by WaeV To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My thoughts over time as if this were me: I did that because I really and deeply care for you! And of course I treat you tenderly and with respect! How could I ever work to hurt something so... I don't even have words to describe this. *Consults encyclopedia and databases*

Sounds a brush off to me! Haha. I dont need an encyclopedia, I just need the 'gut feeling'. Haha!

	I'm going to stop hanging around her so much until we can move forward again.

I definitely agree with Lil on this one. But I like the way you defend your answer. Sounds very logical to me but I think its a case to case basis. Remember, I was interested in him and all he needs is for him to ask me to be his girl if indeed he is into me. The problem is, he INTRODUCED the idea of being friends while we were getting to know each other so I took it as a sign that maybe he wasnt ready and he just needed 'time to stew' as you say. In the end, it got burned. Hahaha.

	Well, that was fun to write! I don't speak for all INTJs, of course, but that's what was going through my mind recently (*ahem*, I mean, as I was reading though your account of the situation) and I thought I'd share.

Maybe you're thinking of another INFJ or maybe you can relate in my situation or PERHAPS, you were my INTJ. Hahaha. The underlined phrase seems like a rationalization to me. Hahaha!

---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 05:33 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Tyrant Soup To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If I was friends with her, I would not just disappear like that. I consider avoidance to be undisciplined and irresponsible. I would simply convey my lack of interest as gently as possible to avoid hurting her feelings.

This should be an ideal scenario. It is very not manly to disappear out of whim. Whether a man likes it or not, his girl will be hurt. Rejection is painful but it is more painful when someone is not honest. Excuse has no use. In my case, I have a strong 'gut' feeling that just when a guy is trying to make an excuse, I already know that its not true. Haha! So guys, you will really look stupid trying to make an excuse. Be straightforward, no matter how painful it will be and definitely you will earn the girl's respect.

---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 06:01 AM ----------

Originally Posted by InfiniteLoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's possible that your INTJ friend simply felt that you were getting too clingy or too close. He may have been interested only in being friends, and he interpreted your deep caring as an NF not as deep caring, but as you going 'too fast' or being clingy instead. It isn't that he didn't love you, it's just that INTJs are horribly sensitive to those that get a little too close. We tend to like our space in relationships and generally get into a relationship not for closeness but for intellectual companionship. If he shut off, it's probably because you were edging into his 'bubble'; going too deep too fast. It's very good that you are the kind of person that knows when to back off; if you really did send him the wrong signal and gave him the impression that you were being clingy, then backing off is exactly the right thing to do. If he was giving mixed signals, it could be simply that he didn't know how to react and didn't like it. Quite simply, the robot's radar was jammed. XD

I didnt know I love robots until I have known this INTJ guy. He's a very strong INTJ so, it would really be difficult to penetrate his world. Maybe I will just put him in a memory box.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

	If an INTJ doesn't like or can't interpret the signals you're giving him, he's likely to shut down simply out of frustration. There's another possible reason for you. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hmmm. I was thinking of possible reasons. Maybe my robot wasnt electically charged so there were no sparks which is vital in igniting a flame. Haha!

[LifesEcstasy]

In reply to the OP. It's not uncommon at all for INTJs to have very strong emotions. What they fear though is being controlled by those emotions and use reason and logic to keep themselves from being swept away on a tide of it. Their primary way of processing the world isn't the way they feel, it's the way they think about how they feel.

Yes I have done exactly as you've describe before. Been really open and tender with someone and then suddenly give mixed signals before disappearing. The internal dynamics of it is is quite complex. What INTJs can often do is pre-emptive rejection. This is where if they think they may be rejected they will save themselves the pain of it by being the first to reject. It's much easier to get closure if you are the one deciding it's over. One of the truly maddening situations for a J person is to be dumped unexpectedly and have no way to get closure on the matter, particularly if the other person just disappears without saying anything. Yes I see the irony in that, they do unto others what drives them personally insane.

So I can only guess that during the process of getting to know you better he either decided you weren't a great match or feared that you would reject him. So he pulled away, wanting to be with you but at the same time knowing the necessity of needing to let go. Hence the mixed signals. Before disappearing.

[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by LifesEcstasy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In reply to the OP. It's not uncommon at all for INTJs to have very strong emotions. What they fear though is being controlled by those emotions and use reason and logic to keep themselves from being swept away on a tide of it. Their primary way of processing the world isn't the way they feel, it's the way they think about how they feel.

Give in to the dark side
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Resplendence]

Originally Posted by monkeysox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think it might be common. I wont go into great detail, because you can go back to my previous posts, but basically the same thing happened with me. We hit it off great, things got less touchy feely, we had an argument, things were much better then bam, he disappears, with no warning. I felt like he had just cut me off, and it made me mad, and I ignored the great advice I was given to just let him have his space. I was doing what INFJ's do best, and trying to smooth it all over. The reply I got was not nice, and basically told me I read too much into his silence. I just dropped it and moved on. 3 weeks later, he came back, and apologized for his behavior, which I am glad for, because I felt I had made mistakes too. My best advice is something that a long time INTj friend told me in regard to him, It's tough to treat someone the way they want to be treated, rather than the way we want to be treated. He probably just needs a little space, not necessarily from you, but he may be distracted and not realize he is neglecting you. Just let him wander off, he will come back if he sees potential. That, I promise. With that said, let me say that your needs are just as important as his, don't feel like you have to compromise yourself to keep him. I am tickled about my INTJ resurfacing, but I do treat him a little differently now and have a guard up. And no.... they don't lack emotion, they just do not show it or aren't able to process it the same way we are able to. He can actually be quite sweet (unknowingly) and quite a charmer. He is funny as hell, and when I start laughing, he keeps doing more and more to keep me laughing. I sincerely enjoy my time with him, even if he is not a baby, honey, sweetie kind of guy. Another plus, he is probably the best looking man I have ever laid eyes on, and I don't think he even realizes how hot he is. lol!

I agree completely with what you're saying. My boyfriend is sweet but in a different way than others. He is amazingly attractive the most adorable guy I have ever laid eyes on and he doesn't even see it (this sometimes ticks me off when he thinks he is ugly because I feel ugly due to my extra 20lbs of fat where he is fit and has a lean sculpted athletic body). He also is hot and then cold but I am getting used to it. I think it just takes time for INFJ's to adjust to the quirks of INTJ's and vice versa. Giving him the space he needs is the problem because after going weeks without seeing him in person it becomes incredibly difficult to stop myself from just holding him for hours. I really want to give him space and I am sure I will be able to if I get used to his presence but I still would really like to hear him say I love you for a change and if he were to kiss me instead of me kissing him it would mean the world to me. He does try kissing me at random times but usually it's when I am distracted and as a result I miss his kiss and then he just quits he doesn't try to go for it again and my stupid fantasy is that it would be nice if when he misses he holds off for another hour or so and then just grabs my face out of the blue and kisses me. Now sex is another issue that we are having difficulty with. He never wants to initiate anything and always says that he doesn't care either way which really hurts. Do you have that problem too?