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02-16-2013 02:32 AMINTroJectYou complain when they act and when they don't act, no pleasing some people.
Excuse me? I said nothing of the sort.
Are you saying that Israel should be denied money and trade to avoid such things? Sounds like the very policy you denounce in Palestine.
No. I am saying what I said, which isn't that.
And again you only see one group doing anything.
Nope. Never said anything of that sort either.
Washington has a long history of not paying the UN.
Seriously? I speak about the UN being largely funded by the United States, and you respond back with amounts pledged to it but not yet paid? How many more strawmen are you going to throw around, just so I know ahead of time whether or not to take this conversation seriously.
You have very strong opinions if they aren't your views. You claim to know why the Palestinians protest and fight back.
You are the one here summarizing it all up with blatantly racist undertones.
I have never said I have a solution or want to figure out their problems. I am simply observing what their respective stands are. All you need do is listen to the speeches.
Like any people, they have very reasonable motivations to be opposing an invasion into land where they are living. You might want to listen to what they are actually saying, as opposed to what they are being conveniently distorted into having said. The Hamas charter might be a good place to start, along with Bin Laden's letters, and perhaps the families who have been dislocated from their homes by this pre-meditated agenda that is accomplishing exactly what was well planned in advance.
And once again you seem to be speaking for me or you consider yourself royalty? Who is "us"?
"us" as in "not you", as you have already identified yourself as not being an American.
Yes, just like the free settler Jews in Palestine in 1947, so much love and compassion.
The is a world of difference between accepting immigrants, and accepting immigrants who draw borders around their neighborhoods, declaring themselves to be an independent sovereign and apartheid state, along with a whole lot of bloodshed resulting from it. Some people think it's a bit rude.
02-15-2013 04:26 PMINTroJectYet they did at the UN in 1948 and continue to take on the responsibility every day since.
And in this you highlight a problem with having a global mandating body, such as the United Nations.
I love how you think money is only provided to one side.
The US supplied airplanes being used to drop US supplied white phosphorus over Palestinian neighborhoods is included in "money", as the American people are paying for it.
Yet the UN decreed it will be so and the ruler of the lands at the time allowed it to happen.
Again, you highlight a problem with having an outside mandating authority, largely funded with money from the United States, intruding into such matters.
The discussion was who WE was. There is no expectation on my part whatsoever.
Great. Then you can go ahead and pay and die for this cause.
You have two unresolvable views. Israel exists vs Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth.
Those are not my views. Being that you are constructing a false dichotomy, no wonder things are seeming a bit unresolvable.
Get a piece of paper, write the premise of both sides on it and see what outcomes will be acceptable to each party, big picture stuff, not the nit picking stuff. I guess the ultimate solution is to move Israel to somewhere else, it will still be rich and successful, the Palestinians will still be poor and destitute while other Arabs live in luxury. That is what happened years ago, the Jews fled.
Or get a peice of paper out and write "Let them figure their own problems out on their own and stop presuming to know what is best for things that should not involve us."
Why should they do it again? And if that is your solution why should Muslims expect better treatment when trying to establish communities in Western, predominately Christian, countries?
If the West is going to let them in to establish communities, they should get no better or worse treatment under the law than any other group of people.
02-15-2013 03:41 PMINTroJectAt this point a discussion is impossible and this is why the Middle East is fucked up to the point that being unresolvable.
It's not the responsibility of others, especially that of the United States, and the inclusive population of American people, to resolve the gripes of others. I understand you are looking for solutions, but you should cross "sacrifice American people for this cause" off of your list of available options.
Just don't think that by stopping the money you will somehow stop the fighting and don't think that it is only one side being bankrolled.
It's not my responsibility nor my problem, nor that of the United States, to stop two parties from fighting who are hell bent on fighting. Removing involvement in the fighting, and stop in assisting one side at oppressing and conquering another, is sufficient enough.
And this is the rub. The ultimate response is that Israel and the majority of the Jews shouldn't be there and it is non-negotiable. So life goes on shooting at each other. With such an attitude there can be no compromise and for one side there is only one solution, the "final solution" could be a term, wiping Israel off the map for all of eternity.
Being that conquering this land has been long planned for well in advance, they created this monster under the full realization of what they were getting themselves into. It's their problem that they need to figure out.
So at this point what are we discussing again?
We are discussing this expectation of yours that 1 group of foreign people fork over resources and blood to assist a 2nd group of foreign people in oppressing and stealing land from a 3rd group of foreign people.
02-15-2013 04:52 AMINTroJectI am not sure what you read when I write messages.
Well, for starters, I read you claiming that some group of people are "God's chosen people" and implying some really ridiculous meaning to it...
If Jews are Gods chosen people then I guess you need to be pretty confident that either the Jewish God doesn't exist, Jews aren't Gods chosen people or the religion the non Jews follow is actually the correct religion, otherwise you are taking on a group of people with one hell of a big brother looking after them.
... like here.
Again, I never said that. I was referring to those who want Israel gone.
But you are going about 'picking on Israel' in response to comments about not wanting to take part in the atrocities they are committing.
I don't care if anyone gives money to anyone else. If you think that not giving money will stop a war then your just kidding yourself.
It stops bankrolling one side from picking on the other.
I wonder what the Palestinians would do if they could go back to 1948 and decide all over again if the offer of borders and governance declared by the UN was a worthwhile deal considering what they know today?
Probably not. There were innocent people living in those areas in 1948 who were decreed by that they were therefore subjects to "a Jewish State". Any reasonable person would rise in opposition to such a measure, and would want such a thing wiped off the face of the earth. It's like if Southern Florida decreed that everyone living there was therefore to be subjects to a Latino state, with preferential apartheid laws written accordingly.
02-13-2013 03:33 AMINTroJectIf you want to go all Jesus about this then the Bible has already said what happens. The Arabs invade, the Israeli's fight back but are losing, they nuke Damascus among other cities but are still being over run until God intervenes and forces the invaders back giving Israel a victory over all the Middle East.
The so-called Israelis stole the name Israel. You might as well get yourself a goldfish and call him by that name and watch for biblical prophesy to unfold.
Do I believe this, I have no idea, but it isn't the outcome the Arabs want. If the Palestinians negotiate borders rather than your view that such a negotiation is meaningless then they might end up with a better outcome than major and significant loses across the whole Middle East with Israel in control of all the major oil fields.
Israel isn't going to conquer Canada, Mexico, Venezuela and Angola, or even Saudi Arabia for that matter. Again, the sellers of oil have a whole lot more reason to be worried about there being no buyers, than the buyers should worry about there being no sellers. People really have a hard time figuring this out. The Israelis can "control" the oil fields all they want, it really doesn't work like how you are thinking and is commonly portrayed.
Just a though re Jesus and the chosen people, after all you are picking on HIS people, not just a country called Israel.
You have a very queer use of the phrase 'picking on them'. What about 'not requiring that tribute be paid to fund another people's agenda of war and conquest' is 'picking on them'?
Is every country that is not forking up resources to accommodate their agenda now picking on them? That's being a bit presumptuous.
02-12-2013 09:54 PMINTroJectI thought you didn't care what happened in the Middle East so it can't be about Americans living over there.
It's not that I don't care, really, I do, but that I think it's wiser not to make the problems worse. Our outside, and very biased, involvement does just that. I like to go by what I think of as the Jesus foreign policy, and I say this as a complete atheist. All divine supernatural powers aside, what would he want us to be doing? Picking sides in an ongoing conflict that's going on? Sending weapons of war? I suspect he would want us to make sure, first and foremost, that we are not doing harm to anyone. If we are, then we immediately stop. A goal of us not killing anybody, or aiding others in killing people, is a great place to start. That sounds fine to me and it's quite realistic.
The other option, our current path, where we are actively providing assistance in killing people, or killing people ourselves, in order to allegedly prevent... killing? The whole thing is oxymoronic.
Beyond that, once we get to that point, what can we do to help? Maybe provide easy exit to either side if they wish to remove themselves from the situation. That sounds like it would mean granting easier visas, and make sure we are not blocking travel in any way. Then from there, anyone there is choosing to be there and choosing to fight for the land. If dirt on the ground is that important to people then so be it.
02-12-2013 08:57 PMINTroJectSeriously, Arabs are going to launch an invasion of America?
Who was cutting who's throats? Who drags who through the streets behind motor bikes?
One of the two sides has had everything pre-meditated and planned for well in advance, including a clear understanding, and an expectation, of the innocent lives that were going to be lost and destroyed as a result. I'm not sure that this gives them any special brownie points along the 'respecting life' grading scale.
The other side is doing some pretty crazy things from the realization that this is what is happening to them.
At this point it is almost a pointless conversation. All the Palestinians have to do is negotiate terms and set borders. Until they do the Israeli's will settle wherever they damn well please. How is that hard to work out. It is a pity that the Palestinians don't want to do this.
Because that's all a ploy. It doesn't matter if or what the Palestinians negotiate, the borders have already been pre-determined, and it's the land that's sitting under their feet.
02-12-2013 08:01 PMINTroJectI don't understand why you think this involves American lives or even Americans on the ground. There is not one scenario that would last long enough for the US to mobilize other than a protracted guerrilla/insurgent campaign which I am sure the Israeli's can handle themselves. Every Israeli is a member of the IDF. They get called up, they have arms and I am sure they will all fight because if they don't they will be slaughtered if they lose.
There is the scenario of the USA getting involved and giving support to one side at the expense of another, inevitably going to happen, thus making itself a viable target, and getting attacked because of it.
Nothing new about this. Let someone else deal with 9/11 atrocities and the regular TSA fondlings because of it. I don't think it's a fair trade off so that someone else might benefit from it.
Their respect for human life doesn't seem to have improved much.
I am unable to discern which side you are referring to.
For the World to have put Israel where it is, and yes the Jews got what they asked for, I think something more needs to be done than just sitting back and watching the satellite feeds as the Arabs try once again to push them into the sea. Unfortunately the only people in the Middle East who want Israel there are the Israeli's. That doesn't bode well for negotiations.
If the Israelis have been expanding their state with a perpetual expectation that other people are going to bankroll their brazen behavior, that is an extremely dangerous/erroneous calculation for them to be making, and an undue expectation to be placing on others. If they don't have back up plans to "what if the Americans stop paying to prop up our state for us", then I would hardly think that the results that come from it are the fault of the USA should the people decline from continuing with the regular payments of tribute.
02-12-2013 07:19 PMINTroJectI mistook you for being an American.
As far as a solution, whatever it is, if there is anything at all, it's something that needs to come between them and not imposed by outside powers. We can't solve their problems for them that they are creating.
I don't remember the numbers exactly off hand, but Israel is currently spending something like 8 percent of their GDP on military, prior to the treaty with Egypt they were spending something like 30 percent of their GDP on military. If their state is really that important to them, they are more than capable of adjusting themselves accordingly to meet their own defense needs. It's their state, they want it, if it's that important to them, let them pay for it with their own money, lives and resources. Under such circumstances, watch how suddenly accommodating they become once they are faced with paying the true costs of going to war.
Also, you might want to give my last response another read, I edited it a couple of times after posting it to address reasons why we really don't need to worry as much about it as it gets worked up to be.
02-12-2013 06:47 PMINTroJectSounds fine as long as you don't start complaining when they don't sort it out and the Middle east descends into chaos denying the world the oil it requires which may also force many parts of the civilized world into chaos.
Oh my, that sounds scary! Too bad USA buys a whole lot more oil from Canada than the entire Persian gulf put together. Being that the Europeans are closer in proximity, and perhaps more affected by events over there, if they are affected at all, it's their problem more than ours. Let them throw more bodies into the heap if they so please.
Either way, worst case scenario - they duke it out, infrastructure gets destroyed and oil prices go up, I would prefer to take that hit over dead family and friends. People really gets some fundamental things crossed up when they are willing to sacrifice human lives over some material thing like oil. It's just not necessary, there's a kabillion other options.
Those oil countries in the middle east, like some crazy 90 percent or so of their economies are dependent on oil exports. They stop selling and exporting for a day, and they are immediately thrown into the dark ages. They need to worry a whole lot more about other people not buying, than we need to worry about them not selling. This whole thing is all really a non-problem that gets worked up into being one by the same media that has been conveniently bedazzling the American people into quite a few wars already.
The issue isn't always the schoolyard bullshit that is going on now but the consequences of an organized brawl down the road.
More like we are actively setting up an organized brawl through our continual involvement, except with the brawl including American lives. I find it concerning when people are so warped up that there might be a potential conflict somewhere between 3rd parties in some far off land, and don't seem to mind throwing unrelated American lives into the fire. Smacks of betrayal.
Don't forget, only one side accepts the right of the other to exist, that is kinda important.
Perhaps important to them.
About as comparatively important to the United States as Kurds and Turks not getting along.
02-12-2013 03:12 PMINTroJectI don't disagree. What is the minimum position to stop one side annihilating the other?
Let them work it out on their own. It's easy to talk bravado and scream incoming armageddon when you have other people's money funding all of it, perhaps leading to getting even more of it for doing so.
If you say total disengagement then aren't you giving the green light to hostilities?
Our current state of full engagement is giving a green light to hostilities, except also including the loss of innocent American lives.
btw, you do realise how much US money etc is given to all the Arab nations don't you. Wouldn't it also be fair to stop all of this as well?
Noting how US provided tanks come rolling out as Egyptians rise up to overthrow a US supported autocrat, the money going to the arab countries, at least in the case of Egypt, a huge recipient, is for the purpose of propping up Israel the same as giving them the money directly. But yes, we should stop giving them all money too, and let them work it out on their own.
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