$50Kx2 = $100K for household?

I would've ended that with "the greater good"

The problem with my style, when I help people - is that if I have to put in extra effort, I seem to want something in return: Which is a choice to put in more effort, from the people I'm helping. Them choosing to put effort towards becoming better themselves.

... But that can also come off giving the impression that the person isn't good enough as they are, that they are inadequate (even though I feel like I don't feel that of someone I took the time to help). But someone inclined to interpret things from an emotional perspective of whether or not I have a high opinion of them... will typically take it badly (So in a way, I am the person that's creating problems for me - if I behave according to my natural preferences)

The topic is just meant to have an offensive tone towards Persona. Also, most of my topics are just different perspectives to consider - not really supposed to be very meaningful in themselves. Its more the thousand views that combine into Ni based understanding.

Although I did realize that there is an edge of anger towards women in my thinking. Not specific women that I like, but there's an annoyance towards some women at least getting away with not taking responsibility because people (often including myself) are protective of women. Or my own helping people deal with their problems ultimately not helping that much or leading to trouble afterwards... and I think female style politics, where nobody actually tells you what's going on, but lots of stuff is happening behind the scenes, irritate me

Its the awkwardness where I feel I'm better off not asking why women look unhappy, because being helpful seems to cause me frustration (Yes, its not brilliant).

I think the extreme Te I often manifest when I need to get stuff done, is just not suited to working with the average woman.

heh

This is why you love me.

That it would've been wiped out before, doesn't mean that it would be now. Various support structures have been replaced by other stuff.

Personally, I don't think that all that many Ns are particularly suited to traditional life or traditional roles. But whether the normal person works better that way, is a separate question... Whether most people are better off being traditional.

Like, sure some people want to be great entrepreneurs who run massive businesses, but is that an expectation that should even be placed on most people ('cus they might not really want to, and it might still make them feel a little inadequate - yet being normal is perfectly fine)

I actually did want to hear your opinion on my opinion of competition between men and women.

... and interesting thing that you have going on with LadySpock here (I think its an argument between women that are mature in very different ways)

Actually a Harvard study on differences in starting salaries for male and female grads - boiled it down to just a difference in negotiating harder.

Hmm... I think that for men to seriously compete with women, their normal emotions towards the female gender would need to be suppressed first. Male competition is pride, conquest, destruction. It doesn't work alongside caring or protection. Not to mention that people look strangely at a man who was very powerfully competitive with women (Honestly, its hard to even be particularly demanding of women as a manager, without drama. Whereas, you can just force men to work no matter what they want)

Anyway, I feel like, at the point where a lot of men seriously compete with women, the shit is hitting the fan. That it would be indicative of the emotional mix of society having evolved in a dangerous direction. Like the complaints about the heart of the PUA movement often not being in the right place - I think you'd be looking at a basic disrespect, universally. Because men don't normally consistently respect each other. There's always a certain amount of fighting and earning of respect needed, and that respect is easily lost.

Hmm... Competing with women. Interesting overall question.

Funnily, my opinion of Obama is something similar. I think he's a decently intelligent and decently civilized guy. Its just that an approach based in that, isn't suited to getting the job done, where he is. Most of his fellow politicians aren't particularly civilized or into fair play.

Most of the transformation was to be accomplished in the streets where gangs met, played, and hung out. Worker activities included securing health care for gang members, providing employment counseling, doing advocacy work with the police and courts, and taking almost any other action that might transform gang values or lure juveniles away from them (Geis, 1965). Although the program was never evaluated...

Offering healthcare? Employment counseling, advocacy with the courts...

Numerous reasons have been offered to account for the lack of effectiveness of this strategy. Klein (1971; see also Spergel, 1966) suggested that it was unclear whether these programs were designed to control gangs, treat gang members' personality problems, provide access to social and cultural opportunities, transform values, or prevent delinquency. Conflicting program objectives made evaluation difficult.

Programs could not be evaluated because there was no coherent plan. Definitely not any meaningful research behind them.

Providing jobs appears to be an effective intervention. In a survey of incarcerated adolescent and adult gang members across the country, Houston (1996) found that gang members viewed job training and jobs positively. Huff's (1998) study revealed that many gang members and nongang at-risk youth who sell drugs would give up selling for reasonable wages (less than $15 per hour), and many indicated that "they would accept far lower wages—not much more than is currently being paid in fast-food restaurants—if they could obtain a sufficient number of hours per week"

This is tragic. If these people are committing crimes, they've been failed badly enough by the community that they have a right to.

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It is my opinion, that different forms of government are suited to dealing with different types of situations. These people seem to need something almost socialist that has authority over them and can harshly restrict bad behavior, but also guarantees their welfare and makes their lives worth living... That they should eventually be able to graduate out of.

My impression of why those initiatives failed is:
1) They were too nice
2) They had no real power
3) Probably couldn't create meaningful connections due to a lack of understanding
4) Pity vs. respect. I doubt that many of the social workers really respected any of the gang people as equally worthy human beings.

Even good people with bad habits can't just change. Especially if they need those habits to survive.

This covers the findings of the evaluations of those programs in a summary: https://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/sum...ervention.html

The answers to your questions can be found here: http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=g7sEAQAAIAAJ

Random thoughts:

• What kind of positive activities did they try? (needs to be oriented at modifying underlying beliefs, not just externally positive activities)
• What kind of environment were they in? (did the leaders in control of the experiment have power enough to meaningfully reward and punish)
• How were the people leading the experiment perceived by the gang members? (did they focus on being respected and forming rapport, before trying to lead)

These were well-evaluated programs. the researchers concluded that encouraging gang members to spend time with other gang members, even in the pursuit of positive activites, still caused an escalation of criminal behavior. Deviant peers = normalization of deviant thinking and behavior, particularly with teenagers and adolescents.

You mean its like putting criminals in jail?

Although if something fails, I usually don't assume that the idea was bad. I assume the execution was ill-researched and half-hearted.

Are you guys trying to get actual gang members to leave the gangs and join the mainstream? Hmm... my first thought is... combat with spreading religion and creating shame for gang culture... but mostly to stop new recruits.

I'm reminded of an Islamic saying... "He who dies in defense of his family or property, is a martyr." - which also means no easy pickings, for parasites to take advantage of. Concepts like honor and pride are sadly out of fashion.