INTJ Sports Fans

[Oversphere]

Is there such a thing as an INTJ sports fan? I find it hard to imagine. I participated in sports a bit when I was a kid. I suppose I can understand the appeal of participation, though it's not really my thing. Watching grown men throw a ball around, though, just seems absurd. To me, being a sports fan seems kinda like tribal behavior. Lots of people where I live are members of the Tennessee Volunteer tribe. They sure don't like that 'Bama tribe. What do y'all think?

I will admit, though, that I occasionally like to watch women's tennis. Those Williams sisters are... interesting.

[bucolic_]

Heh...half my family are members of the "Vol tribe." I don't get into that.

I do consider myself a fan of MMA though (mixed martial arts). I've also met a handful of other INTX's online that enjoy it as well. It's the only sport I really follow, other than grappling, which I participate in, although it doesn't have a well established professional circuit like MMA.

[INTJoe]

Weird...you really feel this way?

I only know two other INTJ's irl, and all three of us are bigtime sports fans.

My dad is INTJ and has coached myself and my brother's little league baseball teams, my brother's youth basketball team as well as my other brother's high school hockey team. He watches baseball and football religiously, and would watch hockey (if it was on anymore...heh). He's played baseball and basketball as a child and young adult.

Myself, I actually play and coached Men's adult baseball in my hometown as recently as this spring. I now am taking up adult ice hockey and am having a real good time. I watch baseball and football religiously. I play fantasy football. I'd watch NHL hockey if it was ever on, and basketball....ehhh....kinda whatever about that. I also really love watching great boxing matches. It is one of the purest forms of "sport" out there.

Then my buddy who I went to college with is INTJ (although i'd SWEAR he was ISTJ). He isn't very co-ordinated and is pretty unathletic but he works out religiously and can bench-press well over 300 pounds on a 165 pound frame. He watches baseball and football religiously.

I wouldn't think there would be much of a positive or negative corelation between INTJ's and playing sports. I think it has more to do with heredity. If you are born athletic, you will probably end up enjoying sports because you can participate in them without looking foolish. ANd I'm assuming being born athletic is independent of the 16 personality types.

- INTJoe

[Rohsiph]

What draws me away from the "ritual" is the general force that the "true fans" use--namely, screaming whenever something of minor significance happens.

I invest myself in the arts, but have trouble working myself up over any kind of game . . . although participating is almost always fun--I just won't yell about shit.

[The Many]

Weird...you really feel this way?

I only know two other INTJ's irl, and all three of us are bigtime sports fans.

My dad is INTJ and has coached myself and my brother's little league baseball teams, my brother's youth basketball team as well as my other brother's high school hockey team. He watches baseball and football religiously, and would watch hockey (if it was on anymore...heh). He's played baseball and basketball as a child and young adult.

Myself, I actually play and coached Men's adult baseball in my hometown as recently as this spring. I now am taking up adult ice hockey and am having a real good time. I watch baseball and football religiously. I play fantasy football. I'd watch NHL hockey if it was ever on, and basketball....ehhh....kinda whatever about that. I also really love watching great boxing matches. It is one of the purest forms of "sport" out there.

Then my buddy who I went to college with is INTJ (although i'd SWEAR he was ISTJ). He isn't very co-ordinated and is pretty unathletic but he works out religiously and can bench-press well over 300 pounds on a 165 pound frame. He watches baseball and football religiously.

I wouldn't think there would be much of a positive or negative corelation between INTJ's and playing sports. I think it has more to do with heredity. If you are born athletic, you will probably end up enjoying sports because you can participate in them without looking foolish. ANd I'm assuming being born athletic is independent of the 16 personality types.

- INTJoe

Well said.

I enjoy watching a good game every now and then too, primarily football (soccer for all you Americans...), but I also enjoy sports such as track and field. The Olympics and other major tournaments are always interesting to watch too. Obviously this is a matter of heredity, not that I ever was particularly athletic, but my (INTP) dad was always very interested in sports. Primarily he is/was into football (soccer), being the biggest sport everywhere in the world but in the USA. I would however assume that most NFs and the like wouldn't be particularly interested in sports, since most of them believe themselves to have more important things to do.

Still, there are quite some INTJ athletes out there worth being mentioned - Lance Armstrong and Andre Agassi are only two of the most succesful.

[Oversphere]

Weird...you really feel this way?


Yup. I just don't get it. My theory is that being a sports fan is more about social interaction than actual interest in the sport. I mean, who cares whether this guy or that guy caught a ball or ran real fast or whatever? If you've seen one game, you've seen them all. I work with a bunch of SP's in a job that's sort of performance oriented. Most of them are sports fans, and they have a good time talking, arguing, and laughing about sports, mostly football, basketball, and nascar. It goes something like this:

"Hey did you see the race?"
"Yeah, Billybob hit Joebob, and spun him off the track. Joebob was PISSED!"
"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
"Joebob's a little bitch!"
"You're smokin' crack!"

...or similar football/basketball talk.

They seem to really care whether the orange team or the red team wins, apparently because of the proximity of the team to themselves. It's not like they have any real connection to it. It's kinda like they've chosen to join the orange tribe, and they're hoping that their tribe wins the (distantly removed) war.

I agree that interest in sports might be inherited, if not by genes then it could be a behavior that is passed on. When I was growing up, none of the people I knew well cared about sports.

[Nomad]

I played soccer and football in high school. Could not care less for either sport.Enjoyed wrestling and was a truly dedicated martial artists for thirty years. You want to bask in the glory of war? Go fight one. Stop being a poge and do it, stop "playing' and start acting. Just my opinion.

-Nomad

[bucolic_]

Yup. I just don't get it. My theory is that being a sports fan is more about social interaction than actual interest in the sport. I mean, who cares whether this guy or that guy caught a ball or ran real fast or whatever? If you've seen one game, you've seen them all. I work with a bunch of SP's in a job that's sort of performance oriented. Most of them are sports fans, and they have a good time talking, arguing, and laughing about sports, mostly football, basketball, and nascar. It goes something like this:

"Hey did you see the race?"
"Yeah, Billybob hit Joebob, and spun him off the track. Joebob was PISSED!"
"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
"Joebob's a little bitch!"
"You're smokin' crack!"

...or similar football/basketball talk.

They seem to really care whether the orange team or the red team wins, apparently because of the proximity of the team to themselves. It's not like they have any real connection to it. It's kinda like they've chosen to join the orange tribe, and they're hoping that their tribe wins the (distantly removed) war.

I agree that interest in sports might be inherited, if not by genes then it could be a behavior that is passed on. When I was growing up, none of the people I knew well cared about sports.

Ehhhh...for me it's different. It has absolutely nothing to do with social interaction. And while I can't speak for other sports as much, in MMA, there's a lot more than simple actions, it's very complex, and I know other sports are as well. Lot's of strategy is involved in it and other sports. And you haven't seen one event, and seen them all. Far from it.

For me it wasn't inherited either, I developed my own interest.

[radioactivez0r]

I played soccer and football in high school. Could not care less for either sport.Enjoyed wrestling and was a truly dedicated martial artists for thirty years. You want to bask in the glory of war? Go fight one. Stop being a poge and do it, stop "playing' and start acting. Just my opinion.

-Nomad

Huh???

As for the rest of the thread, I don't have an athletic bone in my body, and gave up long ago trying to actually play sports (but tennis on the weekends is fun), but I love (American) football. I don't root for the hometown team, I was influenced by my uncle the sports radio guy to cheer for the teams from where my family's ancestry is. I don't watch it because they are fast or strong, I watch for the amazing athleticism and the "wow" factor of big plays, and because as another poster mentioned, there's a lot of underlying strategy to it. It's just fun to cheer on your favorite team and ride the wave of their momentum.

[rwyatt365]

"And now, for something completely different…"

My sport of choice is motorsports. I'm a huge "fan" of Formula 1, MotoGP and World Rally. None of that interest is "hereditary" (no one in my family gives a hoot about cars), nor is it cultural (my "peeps" don't give a damn about cars unless it's rolling on 22's and is blinged-out). I developed this all on my own!

What's the attraction? I think I've said something to this effect somewhere else – but…
Formula One; It's all about the technical and mechanical wizardry of the cars combined with the strategy of the racing and the history and aura of the locations where they race. To me, what's not to love about F1?! I can even ignore most of the political BS that pervades the sport (and there was a crap-load of it this season) as soon as the cars take off.

MotoGP; Take a F1 car, strip off two wheels and put the rider on the vehicle not in it and you pretty much have MotoGP. It's motorcycle racing at it's best! It's poetry in motion. I ride a motorcycle, and for a street bike it's pretty intense – I can't imagine how those guys do what they do…but I'm glad that they do!

Workd Rally; Have you ever gone down a dirt road and hit a pothole at 20MPH and it rattled your teeth? Have you ever driven on a snow-covered highway and the car started to slip a little and your butt-cheeks tightened up? Have you ever driven on a mountain switch-back and seen a 50ft drop over the edge of the barrier and your heart skipped a beat? Well multiply that by 5 and you have World Rally! These guys do things on public roads all over the world that us mere mortals can only dream of. It's road driving on steroids.

I have to take a rest now! :faint:

[Nomad]

Huh???

As for the rest of the thread, I don't have an athletic bone in my body, and gave up long ago trying to actually play sports (but tennis on the weekends is fun), but I love (American) football. I don't root for the hometown team, I was influenced by my uncle the sports radio guy to cheer for the teams from where my family's ancestry is. I don't watch it because they are fast or strong, I watch for the amazing athleticism and the "wow" factor of big plays, and because as another poster mentioned, there's a lot of underlying strategy to it. It's just fun to cheer on your favorite team and ride the wave of their momentum.

Sorry, I was irritated at a local sports scandal when I posted that. I will explain further. Athletic competition has it's roots in the training of warriors. I think sports on a local level are a very good thing. Done correctly, it teaches teamwork, promotes physical fitness, improves hand eye coordination, etc. It also teaches how to win and lose graciously. There are many benefits.

But it's not done correctly.

In America, winning is everything. Parents assault coaches and umpires when a call is made against their child. When LA plays SF here, there are usually three or four fistfights among fans, and I've broken up two on the train home. The UK and to a lesser extent, the rest of Europe in infamous for it's soccer hooligans. Taxpayers are routinely asked to pay for ever larger and more expensive sports stadiums with additional taxes and municipal bond measures. In all fairness, it tends to revitalize the area where the stadium is built, but the cost/benefit does not work, You generally don't get enough back.

Players are commodities to be bought and sold. They make millions for playing a game. If you want an autograph for your child, you either wait outside a game, where they have bodyguards whose job it is to keep you away. (I know, I was one of those guards) Your other option is to go to a show, where the player charges money for the autograph, because they don't want to "devalue the brand".

There are rules about performance enhancing drugs, but the hypocrisy about it is rampant. Everyone denies, everyone knows everyone does it, everyone ignores it. The rabid Giants fans believe beloved Barry can do no wrong. If he played for LA, those same baseball fans would be burning him in effigy.

All the ads for all these games feature martial themes, espousing the glory and honor and blah, blah. I'll buy that particular line of crap when we start executing the losers. it's a game, nothing more. You can't compare it to a war. I've done both. There is no comparison.

Most of this post is about people who don't play the game. Staggering amounts of resources, both personal and public, are spent by thousands of people who sit on their ass and can't make it the top of the stairs without breathing hard.

Life is not a spectator sport. You enjoy football? Go to the park and play. Same with baseball. Rwyatt likes to drive, and I'm willing to bet, given a choice. he'd be on the track at Laguna Seca rather than watching someone else go around it.

I won't even get into the social politics of high schools and the economic politics of universities when it comes to athletic teams. Millions are donated to universities for football teams alone when genuine scientific inquiry goes begging for funds.

Stop watching and go play. Participate.

-Nomad

[rwyatt365]

Sorry, I was irritated at a local sports scandal when I posted that. I will explain further. Athletic competition has it's roots in the training of warriors. I think sports on a local level are a very good thing. Done correctly, it teaches teamwork, promotes physical fitness, improves hand eye coordination, etc. It also teaches how to win and lose graciously. There are many benefits.

But it's not done correctly.

In America, winning is everything. Parents assault coaches and umpires when a call is made against their child. When LA plays SF here, there are usually three or four fistfights among fans, and I've broken up two on the train home. The UK and to a lesser extent, the rest of Europe in infamous for it's soccer hooligans. Taxpayers are routinely asked to pay for ever larger and more expensive sports stadiums with additional taxes and municipal bond measures. In all fairness, it tends to revitalize the area where the stadium is built, but the cost/benefit does not work, You generally don't get enough back.

Players are commodities to be bought and sold. They make millions for playing a game. If you want an autograph for your child, you either wait outside a game, where they have bodyguards whose job it is to keep you away. (I know, I was one of those guards) Your other option is to go to a show, where the player charges money for the autograph, because they don't want to "devalue the brand".

There are rules about performance enhancing drugs, but the hypocrisy about it is rampant. Everyone denies, everyone knows everyone does it, everyone ignores it. The rabid Giants fans believe beloved Barry can do no wrong. If he played for LA, those same baseball fans would be burning him in effigy.

All the ads for all these games feature martial themes, espousing the glory and honor and blah, blah. I'll buy that particular line of crap when we start executing the losers. it's a game, nothing more. You can't compare it to a war. I've done both. There is no comparison.

Most of this post is about people who don't play the game. Staggering amounts of resources, both personal and public, are spent by thousands of people who sit on their ass and can't make it the top of the stairs without breathing hard.

Life is not a spectator sport. You enjoy football? Go to the park and play. Same with baseball. Rwyatt likes to drive, and I'm willing to bet, given a choice. he'd be on the track at Laguna Seca rather than watching someone else go around it.

I won't even get into the social politics of high schools and the economic politics of universities when it comes to athletic teams. Millions are donated to universities for football teams alone when genuine scientific inquiry goes begging for funds.

Stop watching and go play. Participate.

-Nomad
I agree, go out and participate!

BTW - I've run my car at Michigan Int'l Speedway, on the high-banked oval at 135MPH. I've also done track-days at Mid-Ohio Racetrack on my bike. I do "get my hands dirty" whenever I can!

[bucolic_]

I agree, go out and participate!

BTW - I've run my car at Michigan Int'l Speedway, on the high-banked oval at 135MPH. I've also done track-days at Mid-Ohio Racetrack on my bike. I do "get my hands dirty" whenever I can!

Surely you read Grassroots Motorsports? *drools* Favorite car magazine...

[rwyatt365]

Surely you read Grassroots Motorsports? *drools* Favorite car magazine...
Yowzah! :thumbsup:
Also R&T, C&D, Automobile, Formula, Autoweek...

[thegnat]

Is there such a thing as an INTJ sports fan? I find it hard to imagine. I participated in sports a bit when I was a kid. I suppose I can understand the appeal of participation, though it's not really my thing. Watching grown men throw a ball around, though, just seems absurd. To me, being a sports fan seems kinda like tribal behavior. Lots of people where I live are members of the Tennessee Volunteer tribe. They sure don't like that 'Bama tribe. What do y'all think?

I will admit, though, that I occasionally like to watch women's tennis. Those Williams sisters are... interesting.

haha well I'm glad you don't *love* the williams sisters :) I'm not a fan of them AT ALL(ad Sharapova in that group). The only women I'm a big fan of are Justine Henin and Amelie Mauresmo. They're the two that I watch women's tennis for. All the rest I could care less for. I just don't like either their style or their attitude. By style I mean game style not clothing.

As for men's tennis - I only have a few that I positively dislike. Roddick, Nadal, Kiefer, Santoro, Blake, Murray. Roddick and Nadal are the worst though out of that bunch. I can't stand to watch Blake's game. Otherwise I like to watch most. Federer is just freaking amazing.

/tennis rant as you can tell I'm a huge tennis fan.

I'm also a huge horse fan. Now if only they'd show horse shows (show jumping/eventing/english disciplines especially) more often... I like to go to a couple live ones though.

Then again I'm fans of civilized sports. The audiences are civilized and a lot of people don't ask about them. It's not social at all for me - it's for the pure enjoyment of watching them. Unless well it's horses - then if I watch it live I miss riding horses myself, sigh...double edged sword, but I love to go to shows still...

I'll watch other sports, but I don't really care about them. People wonder how I don't care about OSU football, but I really don't. I don't generally like to watch them either. Give me a tennis match any day. Or a horse show.

btw - I showed hunter/jumper one summer and have played competitive tennis for awhile.

[rwyatt365]

@thegnat; Serena has gotten a little too big for her britches (almost literally), I think Venus is the classier of the two. And you're not an OSU fan! Sacrilege, :scared: they haven't burned you at the stake yet?! ;)

[Figmentum]

No, after a while I get bored because their strategies become entirely predictable. Football, basketball, soccer, Baseball, MMA, etc...

[Gaius Baltar]

I'm with Oversphere on this one. I honestly can't believe that there's a bunch of INTJs hanging around on here that like sports. If there was one type on this entire planet that I think would uniformly not care about sports, it would be the INTJs. You learn something new everday, I suppose.

I can't stand sports. I feel that they're one of the biggest weapons of mass distraction (WMDs) around. Keep the public occupied with bread and circuses so you can get away with whatever you want.

Also, in true INTJ fashion, I'm not a fan of small talk. I have to say that sports talk is one of my least favorite forms of small talk around. It drives me nuts listening to people babble on and on sports and other nonsense that doesn't matter. I also can't stand these very same people who treat me like a leper as soon as they find out I don't like sports and am not interesting in discussing them in the slightest. Although, I suppose the feeling is mutual since I find that they don't care at all about stuff that I care about. Stuff that's actually important.

I do really appreciate Nomad's analysis of the situation, though. It's not that I have a problem with the theory of sports. I do not have a problem with true sportsmanship and competition. It's just that people get all too hyped up over nonsense that doesn't matter, even to the point of harming themselves and/or property over it. I also don't like all the public funding that's wasted on such nonsense. Since when it it acceptable for all these kids to get into top colleges when they're dumb as a box of rocks and the entire point of the institution is to teach, not play sports?

[INTJoe]

To all those saying they hate sports...are any of you athletic?

No offense meant, but I'm just trying to figure out if the correlation relates to athletecism as opposed to INTJ-ism. I think if anyone is born athletic, it is almost inevitable in American society that you will appreciate and like playing and watching sports.

So again, I'm surprised that so many of you are surprised that an INTJ would appreciate sports, as I don't think it has much to do with INTJ-ness, but more to do with natural athleticism.

It may be that many INTJs are born with...to use a stupid cliche... more brain and less braun than the average person, and therefore are less likely to be athletic. But I don't know how much truth there is to that. Of my two brothers and myself, I'm probably the most naturally athletic and yet neither of them is close to being INTJ.

[Gaius Baltar]

To all those saying they hate sports...are any of you athletic?

No offense meant, but I'm just trying to figure out if the correlation relates to athletecism as opposed to INTJ-ism. I think if anyone is born athletic, it is almost inevitable in American society that you will appreciate and like playing and watching sports.

So again, I'm surprised that so many of you are surprised that an INTJ would appreciate sports, as I don't think it has much to do with INTJ-ness, but more to do with natural athleticism.

It may be that many INTJs are born with...to use a stupid cliche... more brain and less braun than the average person, and therefore are less likely to be athletic. But I don't know how much truth there is to that. Of my two brothers and myself, I'm probably the most naturally athletic and yet neither of them is close to being INTJ.

No offense taken, and none meant in return. It appears that we can share our level of unexpected surprise pretty well.

I find your theory on this interesting. I must admit that I haven't considered it from this particular angle before.

For me personally, I'm not very athletic. I'm not exactly a stereotypical wimpy nerd, but my body is not built for athletics. I'm a pure ectomorph type. Tall, slim, long limbs. Hard gainer. It takes me anywhere from twice to five times the amount of effort for me to build muscle than the average guy. It might have something to do with the fact that my limbs are so long, much more mass you have to build.

Regardless, in my case, you might be right. However, that doesn't really explain why I get so agitated with it when you look at the big picture. Or why watching a game on TV simply puts me to sleep, regardless of how "hot" the action is.

I've known some INTPs as well that are far more athletic than I am. Much better bodies for it. They tend to find sports and sports talk just as boring and irritating as I do.

Of course, I can not speak for every INTJ out there, or every INTP. These have just been my general experiences.

You have some points in favor of your idea, but also some points against it. We need more data.

[Sevs]

Like many of you I enjoy both watching and practicing martial arts. I am currently learning traditional shaolin Kung fu and i really enjoy it. THe guy who teaches us is a real shaolin monk and it's just amazing too see what is possible with hard work and training.

Other than that I don't care about sport at all.

[bucolic_]

No offense taken, and none meant in return. It appears that we can share our level of unexpected surprise pretty well.

I find your theory on this interesting. I must admit that I haven't considered it from this particular angle before.

For me personally, I'm not very athletic. I'm not exactly a stereotypical wimpy nerd, but my body is not built for athletics. I'm a pure ectomorph type. Tall, slim, long limbs. Hard gainer. It takes me anywhere from twice to five times the amount of effort for me to build muscle than the average guy. It might have something to do with the fact that my limbs are so long, much more mass you have to build.

Regardless, in my case, you might be right. However, that doesn't really explain why I get so agitated with it when you look at the big picture. Or why watching a game on TV simply puts me to sleep, regardless of how "hot" the action is.

I've known some INTPs as well that are far more athletic than I am. Much better bodies for it. They tend to find sports and sports talk just as boring and irritating as I do.

Of course, I can not speak for every INTJ out there, or every INTP. These have just been my general experiences.

You have some points in favor of your idea, but also some points against it. We need more data.

I'm an "ectomorph" too, and recall being uncoordinated when I was young, but for some reason or another got involved in athletics. It's greatly increased my coordination and athletic ability. So, I would say I wasn't naturally athletic, but learned to be.

Also, I think the idea that ecto's can't easily put on weight or get stronger is a bit simplistic. Anyone can, it's just a matter of working at it. I know in highschool I was stronger than a lot of the guys on my team who were "mesomorphs" simply because I put work into it. In fact, I don't think the somatypes (ecto, meso, endo) are even widely accepted anymore, they're rather outdated. Anyone could attain any somatype based on their diet and activity.

[Nomad]

To all those saying they hate sports...are any of you athletic?

No offense meant, but I'm just trying to figure out if the correlation relates to athletecism as opposed to INTJ-ism. I think if anyone is born athletic, it is almost inevitable in American society that you will appreciate and like playing and watching sports.

So again, I'm surprised that so many of you are surprised that an INTJ would appreciate sports, as I don't think it has much to do with INTJ-ness, but more to do with natural athleticism.

It may be that many INTJs are born with...to use a stupid cliche... more brain and less braun than the average person, and therefore are less likely to be athletic. But I don't know how much truth there is to that. Of my two brothers and myself, I'm probably the most naturally athletic and yet neither of them is close to being INTJ.

Fair question. I can achieve maximum scores for the USMC physical fitness test for the 18 to 21 year old range.I am 38 years old. I can swim five miles. Some of my pursuits are mountaineering, skydiving, long distance backpacking, mountain biking, scuba diving (It's cold water diving here, so 70 lbs of gear). My workout bench press is 180lbs. As part of my work commute, I walk four miles a day, in addition to any other workout. I've mentioned the martial arts.

I have plates and pins holding my right ankle together, I've completely blown my right knee, and my right hip was pretty much destroyed and rebuilt (four plates, seventeen crews, and a fourteen inch surgical scar through my abdomen) about five years ago, so I confess the running portion in the military fitness tests cause me a great deal of pain. But I can do it.

You will note, they are all solitary sports.

-Nomad

[Oversphere]

I should have been clearer in my initial post. I understand why people who play a sport or have played a sport might be interested in watching it. I'm sure there is some correlation between athletic ability and interest in watching sports, but I think it is probably small. I see lots and lots of unathletic Vol fans. The two biggest football fans where I work are two short, fat guys who couldn't run 50 feet. It's people like them, who watch the hyped team sports with which they have no connection whatsoever, that baffle me.

I was pretty unathletic growing up, and I'm pretty average now. My own athletic experience is not real impressive. I played a couple years of little league baseball and basketball. I ran a few miles pretty regularly while I was in the military, and I rode a mountain bike regularly for about a year when I was in South Korea. I have enough experience to understand the appeal of sports participation, though it's not really my thing. It's the cheering, flag waving, face painting, tribal mentality that I'm trying to understand.

[Nomad]

Studies have shown that there is no difference is levels of adrenaline and testosterone in the system of a fan during a game and that of a player. I suspect it's simply the thrill of the crush without the discipline and effort and pain. It's also a sense of belonging. MY team, MY player, etc. Most folks seem to feel the need to identify with some sort of 'warrior caste' or something. The attitude seems to be that if they win,then I am a winner.

I suspects that most INTJ's don't feel the need to belong to anything, so....

-Nomad

[saorsa]

Interesting topic.

In one sense, I am a living counterexample to your thesis: I am both an INTJ and a serious baseball fan, yet I grew up in a family largely indifferent to sports and was never athletic in school. However, you say that your interest lies primarily in the apparent contradictions between the "cheering, flag waving, face painting, tribal mentality" and the basic characteristics of the INTJ. To the extent that you want to focus on the emotional component of fanhood, I might be a less interesting example.

I grew up in the Chicago area, and became a Cubs fan primarily because a) their games were available in my area and b) I admired particular player on the team. My interest was intermittent until I reached high school age, at which point I watched as many games as I could of the 2001 season. After that I was hooked. Above all I wanted to figure out how to improve the team for 2002. I had become interested, that is, in methods of identifying and developing baseball talent. Baseball had become a system.

Several years later, I am inclined to take a more 'global' perspective, emphasizing overall knowledge of the game and enthusiasm for a select few players scattered throughout the majors. Since baseball is only a hobby, and not even my most important one, it's still fair to say that my knowledge is spotty, but there is no question that I have learned a great deal about the proper ways to evaluate major league baseball players (minor league players, to say nothing of high school and college prospects, are a completely different animal requiring far more subjective analysis...). As some posters here may be aware, there is actually a very healthy statistical analysis community interested in baseball, and the metrics have become quite good in recent years, particularly for offensive performance. At the moment there is something of a culture war going on between older, we-played-the-game-and-trust-our-eyes-and-instincts types and younger, mathematically trained analysts who typically have not played since at least high school. The latter usually do noticeably better than the former, but there is no question that balance is necessary, not least because players can be taught to alter their techniques. Personally, I find it interesting to try to blend the two approaches in a manner that involves only moderate time investment. It's sort of embarrassing to report that I often outdo many of the pros (though certainly not the analysts!)....it makes me wonder whether decisionmakers in more important areas of society are equivalently stupid! After all, my methods are nothing that an interested person of moderate intelligence couldn't grasp in a few weeks...

As for the emotional component of the game, I do find myself 'invested' in the success of the Cubs; while I am never one to be upset by bad short term performance, my overall happiness can certainly be altered by a particularly good season or by a disastrous postseason defeat (see 2003 Cubs). It is strange for me to watch baseball games with friends or other fans...they seem to constantly experience emotional reactions to statistically insignificant events! I don't want to overstate this, though; it is perfectly possible for me to be to feel depressed after a particularly bad game or excited after a particularly important victory, and from time to time I experience changes in my emotional state as a result of unusually difficult plays. On the whole, however, I am much less interested in the minute-by-minute games, or even in-game strategy, than in prospect development, payroll management, trades, and allotment of playing time, and much more interested in overall quality of baseball than in the ultimate victor. Unusually for a sports fan, when my single favorite team isn't involved, I don't usually cheer for the best 'story' to win the playoffs, but rather the team that won the most games in the regular season...postseason success in baseball (perhaps not in sports like football or basketball) is such a crapshoot, and I hate to see the team that is obviously the best assembled fail to gain the acclaim it deserves just because of a short, statistically inconclusive series.

(Note: there is an obvious inconsistency between my strong desire for the Cubs to win the World Series and my general lack of respect for "World Series Champions." I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'm sure that the obvious psychobabble answer -that I'm deriding the very thing I want in an attempt to make it less painful to me that I can't have it- fails to capture the genuine quality of my skepticism about the meaningfulness of postseason success. If anything I'd say that the former is an emotional holdover from an earlier, somewhat more emotional way of looking at the baseball world. After all, I did spend many years as a casual baseball fan before I began to question to traditional values... )





Edit: I forgot to make it explicit that I don't experience any real feeling of solidarity with the other fans as a result of our shared 'allegiances,' nor any hostility toward fans of division rivals or other traditional 'enemies.' I do sometimes enjoy the way that the analytical crowd ridicules the conventional 'baseball men,' though. Does that count?

[INTJoe]

I see lots and lots of unathletic Vol fans. The two biggest football fans where I work are two short, fat guys who couldn't run 50 feet. It's people like them, who watch the hyped team sports with which they have no connection whatsoever, that baffle me.


Are you just assuming they aren't athletic by looking at them? William the Refrigerator Perry was 300+ pounds and could leap up onto a 3'-0" table from a standing position. There is a kid in Galveston who weighs 360 pounds and can do a standing backflip.

These fat guys may not be able to run 50 feet due to stamina, but they could be athletic underneath it. And even if they aren't, they may have been athletic kids and grown a love for the sports they played.

It just seems like you are assuming a lot to help solidify your incorrect understanding of why "INTJ's can't love sports".

[INTJoe]

Saorsa, good post. I wouldn't call myself a SABR-head, but I am well aware of OPS, VOPR, WARP, etc. The value of walks...hehe. I own "Moneyball" and it was a great read.

[thegnat]

@thegnat; Serena has gotten a little too big for her britches (almost literally), I think Venus is the classier of the two. And you're not an OSU fan! Sacrilege, :scared: they haven't burned you at the stake yet?! ;)

I hide my non-fanness as best as I can around OSU people. I just don't bring it up since I can't talk football hehe.

yeah I agree rwyatt365. I've always had a little more respect for venus. She still grunts like a yappy dog though.

As for natural athletic ability - I've had to work my a** off for it. I didn't really have it to begin with but I've worked out, played tennis a lot, rode a lot in order to get ability. The closest to "natural" I got was with horses. But I still had to work a lot. Same with tennis. So yeah. I used to play frisbee in the yard and throw/catch games when I was younger. This helped my coordination. badminton too. I was very active.

on the unathletic people watching sports - perhaps they used to play it before they got out of shape. Or maybe they just enjoy watching that particular sport and always wanted to play that sport and never could. Maybe they just like to watch sports in general, are proud of their hometown/college. Maybe they play a sport, have gotten into that "culture" and been exposed to watching sports other than their own and they just really enjoy it.

[radioactivez0r]

I played baseball for 3 years as a kid; by the time I was 12, it was already all about winning, so I quit because I was pretty lousy. I got to play the required minimum innings and then I rode the bench. I have bad coordination and imperfect eyesight. I'm getting better at tennis, but I guess that doesn't count as participating somehow?

If I want to watch football because I enjoy it, rather than participating (I'll go be a walk-on next year at the 49er training camp...hell they could probably use me), that's really up to me, and I don't understand the implication that I'm a lesser person for it.

I've also been guilty of referring to things as unimportant in the grand scheme, but seriously (I think it was Gaius that said it), is everything you do in every day building towards a better world? You must have SOME hobby that isn't helping to cure cancer.

Some of you guys need to lighten up a bit.

[bucolic_]

I played baseball for 3 years as a kid; by the time I was 12, it was already all about winning, so I quit because I was pretty lousy. I got to play the required minimum innings and then I rode the bench. I have bad coordination and imperfect eyesight. I'm getting better at tennis, but I guess that doesn't count as participating somehow?

If I want to watch football because I enjoy it, rather than participating (I'll go be a walk-on next year at the 49er training camp...hell they could probably use me), that's really up to me, and I don't understand the implication that I'm a lesser person for it.

I've also been guilty of referring to things as unimportant in the grand scheme, but seriously (I think it was Gaius that said it), is everything you do in every day building towards a better world? You must have SOME hobby that isn't helping to cure cancer.

Some of you guys need to lighten up a bit.

Agreed, the elitism shown by some of the non-sports fans is bothersome. What I do with my time is my business. I highly doubt Gaius' time is entirely spent doing "important" things.

[INTJoe]

I wouldn't say any of the sports-haters in this thread have displayed "elitism" over us sports-lovers. I think, if anything, they may have an inherent dare I say it, inferiority complex, and are trying to take shelter and solace in the "fact" that it is an INTJ trait. I have said it before, but I don't believe it's an INTJ trait, per se.

I'm also not meaning to imply that the non-athletes should feel inferior. I just get the vibe that they feel a bit "left out" perhaps? Thanksgiving can probably be rough, particularly for an INTJ, when everyone watches football and shows excitement.

As a football-loving INTJ, I enjoy it. I can watch a game and take inventory in the strategy and statistical faction of the game, while not having to converse with people who probably don't care to hear what I have to say anyway.

As an INTJ, I suppose I should feel lucky that I was not only born a GENIUS :), but athletic, as well. A rare combination of traits, to be sure. For the most part, I don't feel like I "belong" or can "participate" in society. But on many playing fields, I feel as though I "belong", without having to wax intellectual with everybody.

[Oversphere]

It doesn't really matter if I'm inferior or elitist, just so long as I'm "bad" in some way. It explains my disagreement with "good" folks.

[INTJoe]

It doesn't really matter if I'm inferior or elitist, just so long as I'm "bad" in some way. It explains my disagreement with "good" folks.


I never said you were bad. You were the one who started the thread and likened sports fans to primitive tribesmen. You are what you are, I don't care if you can't dig sports. Hell, I think NBA basketball is pretty retarded.

I just get the vibe you came here looking for myriad responses such as: "Yeah sports suck. They are childish." and getting a "normal" feeling for thinking this way, when it has become obvious through reading this thread that there is not a direct positive or negative relationship between being INTJ and loving or hating sports.

[Gaius Baltar]

Didn't take very long for the Gaius haters to appear. I guess I make enemies pretty quickly, even among my own kind. ;)

Just to clarify a few things...

radioactivez0r: Nowhere did I imply that you were a lesser person. Assuming that you're not retarded in your fandom like some people, I'm completely cool with it. I apologize if I came across that way.

And no, not everything I do is about saving the world. I have waste of time hobbies too. I just feel that sports is the type of hobby that gets blasted in your face whether you want to deal with it or not. I do not subject others to my hobbies that aren't interested.

bucolic: I am not trying to show any elitism towards anyone in this thread. I apologize if it came across that way. I feel the elitism coming from the other camp pretty hard at times, though. I do not believe that anyone on this thread has shown any elitism in either direction, but I also feel that you guys aren't exactly the typical sports fans I run into.

Joe: Sometimes I feel left out, sure. But I have a pretty low need to feel like I belong to things.

Actually, I'm not really looking for sympathy for my aversion to sports. As I indicated before, I'm genuinely surprised at all this, it was not expected.

Just imagine for a moment that watching sports is as boring as watching paint dry. You'd rather sleep or do something else, even if it's another time wasting activity. Yet there's this national obsession with it, to the point where people spend so much time and money on it, and yet they couldn't be bothered to spend 30 seconds thinking about an issue that actually matters. (You guys are an exception to this last point.)

So from my point fo view, I'm simply trying to get an understanding of it. I'm genuinely curious because I just don't get it. And if INTJs can't frame it in a way that I'll understand, then there's no hope for me, really.

[INTJoe]

there's this national obsession with it, to the point where people spend so much time and money on it, and yet they couldn't be bothered to spend 30 seconds thinking about an issue that actually matters. (You guys are an exception to this last point.)

So from my point fo view, I'm simply trying to get an understanding of it. I'm genuinely curious because I just don't get it. And if INTJs can't frame it in a way that I'll understand, then there's no hope for me, really.


Ehhh, I can't "explain it", really. I mean, hell, I don't know WHY I love certain sports, or why anyone for that matter does. I just do. It's just human nature. I can't explain human nature. For whatever reason, a giant chunk of the population finds at least one sport uber-interesting.

Some times I think Sports is the one thing women "give us", and that is why so many adults take such inventory in sports. I think a lot of adult males take out certain natural urges and desires in the sports they play or watch. It's very primitive. I think a lot of people (society in general) should probably be thankful that "sports" exist. I can't imagine what grown, adrenaline-laden men the world over would be doing with their spare time if not for sports. Probably planting their seed all over the place, creating war, pillaging, rape. I'm using hyperbole, but this is the direction I'm sort of thinking the world would take if not for the safe distraction of sporting events for the typical adult male. I think it's a safe venue for many of us to let out some rather primitive desires.

Why do some people use a stress ball, or whack a tennis racket into a pillow when they come home from work after a bad day? Maybe because it relieves some otherwise primitive desires. I don't do either of those things after a stressful day, and now that I think about it, I would never think of a stress ball or beating a racket into a pillow as a necessity. But for some people, maybe it is.

[Oversphere]

I never said you were bad. You were the one who started the thread and likened sports fans to primitive tribesmen. You are what you are, I don't care if you can't dig sports. Hell, I think NBA basketball is pretty retarded.

I just get the vibe you came here looking for myriad responses such as: "Yeah sports suck. They are childish." and getting a "normal" feeling for thinking this way, when it has become obvious through reading this thread that there is not a direct positive or negative relationship between being INTJ and loving or hating sports.

Assigning undesirable motives to a person who you perceive to be an opponent is a great way to avoid actually considering what the person has to say. Perhaps you're a fan of talk radio? You've constructed quite a story to explain a view that you find unpleasant. The good thing about straw men is that they don't fight back.

I find it interesting to observe and to speculate about the roots of various human behaviors. In my opinion, humanity(which includes myself) has not really advanced significantly beyond its "primitive" past. If you look at the underlying history and motivation behind most of our beliefs and attitudes and traditions, there is almost always a very simple and very old explanation. I thought that sports was an obvious example, and I thought it was fairly likely that other INTJ's would intuitively grasp this idea. I don't claim to be superior to or more advanced than sports fans in any way. My current profession often involves hitting things with hammers. I didn't intend to attack anyone's identity; I was just making social commentary.

[INTJoe]

In my opinion, humanity(which includes myself) has not really advanced significantly beyond its "primitive" past. If you look at the underlying history and motivation behind most of our beliefs and attitudes and traditions, there is almost always a very simple and very old explanation. I thought that sports was an obvious example, and I thought it was fairly likely that other INTJ's would intuitively grasp this idea. I don't claim to be superior to or more advanced than sports fans in any way. My current profession often involves hitting things with hammers. I didn't intend to attack anyone's identity; I was just making social commentary.

"I thought it was fairly likely that other INTJ's would intuitively grasp this idea."

I do grasp the idea that sports are primitive. But what am I, as an INTJ, supposed to do about it? Because something has roots in primitivity (dictionary.com is my friend :P), does that make it bad? And even if one identifies a behavior as primitive, can one suppress their physical desires easily through their mental agendas?

In other words, say I do something that I think is primitive and bad and needs to stop. Yet I'm drawn to it through unexplained physical urges. How easy is it to keep myself from doing it through the power of reason? I guess this is what we know as "will power".

[PhotoJim]

I like sports. I'm terrible at playing them (although in my head I"m good :) ).

I follow Canadian football and major league baseball quite religiously. (My CFL team, the Saskatchewan Roughriders, is in the CFL championship game - the Grey Cup - this coming Sunday, in fact, for the first time in ten years and the team hasn't won a championship since 1989.) I've gone to Toronto twice to see the Blue Jays play (and Toronto is quite a haul from where I live).

I like both sports because they are somewhat intellectual. I particularly like those attributes of baseball. The game has a lot of depth and strategy and thought to it.