An observation after perusing this site

[Rick]

What I'm seeing here among INTJ's is that we, almost without exception, approach problems the same way.

What really surprises me is the diversity here. We do not have the same beliefs, at all. The extreme differences I'm seeing are a big surprise.

I read a sci-fi book by Larry Niven named "Protector". In it, once a hominid ate a particular root (called 'tree of life' in the book), they achieved a much higher intelligence and were physically changed. Something that stuck me was that, once they achieved this higher intelligence, they would see the best solutions and act on them. Their free will would have somewhat disappeared because they all saw the best solutions automatically and would act to achieve this. Commonality because of intelligence, if you will.

For INTJ's, I highly recommend the book.

Just an observation. In my mind, things should only be black or white - no gray areas. So, why is it that so many of us have strict black and white areas that conflict completely with the black and white areas of other INTJ's?

I am also reminded of a quote: Intelligence is a tool to be used toward achieving goals, but goals are not always chosen intelligently.

[Ijz]

Hi Rick, welcome to the forum.

Yes the differences are remarkable. I personally don't think in increasing once intelligence, but rather think of it as acquiring new knowledge. Our INTJ'ness points us in a certain direction, however its still up to every individual to choose the path. There are so many aspects to life, that it is rare to meet someone who has taken all the same paths. However, the chances of meeting people that have taken the same path in a certain area are much higher because of our similar mind-sets.

So what kind of black and white contradictions did you encounter that baffle you? Could you given some examples?

[Rick]

Certainly the quest for knowledge is there for all of us.

Perhaps I am disillusioned. Thinking along the scheme that all paths eventually lead to nirvana. In other words, the ultimate intelligence would lead all to a common goal and means of getting there.

My observation, thus far, is that we are each defining and mastering our own "pools" while being completely ignorant of the "ocean".

Let me distill some thoughts. Right and wrong should be absolutes -not relatives. I'm surprised to see otherwise here.

[ScottH]

Hi Rick,

Fascinating topic you've started here. I'd like to weigh in with a few thoughts.

First of all, I'd assert that right and wrong are not black and white. I argue that write and wrong are judgments, and as such subjective. For e.g., is it right or wrong to kill? I'm sure you can see the ambiguity in that question. What if I suggest that it is write to kill for food, but not for sport. Can I kill the man on the street for his loaf of bread? Can I shoot a deer?

As for our similarity in approach and thinking but our dissimilarity in beliefs, this doesn't surprise me. As Ijz points out, we all walk different paths, and that's just the beginning. INTJ's are all smart, but we're not identical. Seeing just one more detail of a problem can cause someone to make an entirely different conclusion.

Then there's the stuff we just "think" we know (what I most often call belief, as apposed to true knowledge). I, for example, believe that my friend Chris is honest and trustworthy. I've never sought to prove it, nor even really put my mind to challenging my belief. I could be wrong. But, there's just too much in the world for me to really put my mind to thoroughly analyzing it all; I simply accept most of what I know, and alter those "beliefs" if and when a counter presents itself.

Some people were raised in Christian households. They probably have beliefs that they themselves have never challenged, but and hence could well be Christians themselves.

Those are my thoughts. I may be wrong :-)

[Ijz]

I have to agree with Scott. In my opinion there is no such thing as absolute black and white. I'd much rather prefer to view everything in a "relative" manner.

Rick, you mentioned somewhere else that you are one of the older forum members. I'm a true believer in knowledge through experience so I'm really interested why you think this way, you must certainly have your reasons for it? Could you share some experiences/anecdotes with us, to show us the light?

[Rick]

Hi, Ijz

In terms of age, yes, I'm probably one of the older forum members.

Give me some time to formulate my thoughts - maybe a couple of weeks.

Some learning experiences have been painful, but you just don't quit.

At some point, I intend to address this more fully.

Scott, my thoughts are that things MUST be black or white. If somethig is 'gray', it means that it hasn't been put into perspective yet or fully understood.

[ScottH]

Rick,

Ok. So by "must be black or white," do you mean "correct or incorrect," "known or not known?" And by "right and wrong" do you mean logically, as in a statement can be either right or wrong, but not morally?

If it's logically you speak of, then I think I understand you better. I thought you meant morally right and wrong which is, as I pointed out, a human thing and hence cannot be absolute.

To the must-ness of black and white, I think we all proceed as though it were so. That is, for a given problem, we presume that if there is a solution, we can find it and it will indeed be one of {[a solution], [not a solution]}, and in that sense, there is black and white.

23x45 has a very black and white product.

Einstein once suggested that the universe in its whole is deterministic, black and white, and even said of the suggestion that there be a component of uncertainty "God doesn't play dice with the universe."

But then, after quantum physics gained populatiry, he became a proponent of that, effectively admitting he was wrong (as he had been with his cosmological constant).

What reading quantum physics--and growing older--has taught me is to look at "correctness" completely in context of both the measurement instrument I use to check it, and the criteria I use for making a decision.

For example, what color is your television screen?

[Paul V]

What I'm seeing here among INTJ's is that we, almost without exception, approach problems the same way.

What really surprises me is the diversity here. We do not have the same beliefs, at all. The extreme differences I'm seeing are a big surprise.

I read a sci-fi book by Larry Niven named "Protector". In it, once a hominid ate a particular root (called 'tree of life' in the book), they achieved a much higher intelligence and were physically changed. Something that stuck me was that, once they achieved this higher intelligence, they would see the best solutions and act on them. Their free will would have somewhat disappeared because they all saw the best solutions automatically and would act to achieve this. Commonality because of intelligence, if you will.

For INTJ's, I highly recommend the book.

Just an observation. In my mind, things should only be black or white - no gray areas. So, why is it that so many of us have strict black and white areas that conflict completely with the black and white areas of other INTJ's?

I am also reminded of a quote: Intelligence is a tool to be used toward achieving goals, but goals are not always chosen intelligently.

I might be making a liberal use of my intuition here, but I believe the answer is in out Introverted Feeling. It's our tertiary function, and it's usually moderately developed in us. While we all approach the problem in the same way (using Ni and Te), our personal judgements are incredibly varied (thanks to Fi). I think it's safe to say Se doesn't play a big role in this, though I might be wrong.

[HackerX]

Just an observation. In my mind, things should only be black or white - no gray areas. So, why is it that so many of us have strict black and white areas that conflict completely with the black and white areas of other INTJ's?


This is where INTP's and INTJ's are so different. I have no qualms about arguing grey areas. I have no qualms about arguing hypocritically if the end result is more knowledge. I have no qualms even about arguing for something I disagree with for the same reasons. There are always lots of ways of taking a problem, and if you limit yourself to black and white, you'll miss some of the more intuitive solutions.

[blueback]

What really surprises me is the diversity here. We do not have the same beliefs, at all. The extreme differences I'm seeing are a big surprise.


The difference between an INTJ and any other type is like the difference between a Toyota Tundra and any other type of transportation. Just because two INTJs might drive the same vehicle doesn't mean they are going in the same direction. INTJ is HOW we handle the difference between the world inside us and the world outside us, it's the interface, that's all.

Or, another analogy is Windows is a graphic user interface (GUI) but it's not the only one. So some people use GUIs other than Windows but even the people who use Windows don't use it in the same way. It is flexible enough to adjuct to different objectives and preferences.

[Nomad]

Black and white, right and wrong. I'm an older member here, (but I believe Rick has seniority)

As a sniper:

At 500 meters, you see through your crosshatch an infant. You squeeze the trigger. Wrong. Black. Evil.

Behind the infant is a terrorist attempting to detonate a nuclear weapon. by firring at and through the infant, you saved a seven million people from near instant death, and untold numbers from radiation sickness. You also likely prevented a war that could consume an untold number of lives.

Terrorist is a terrorist because a US navy battleship shelled his village to destruction in the hills above Beruit, he then moved to Palestine and was in a refugee camp that was subjected to a raid by Israel where his new wife and child were accidentially killed by a stray bomb provided by the US. he moves to Saudi Arabia for work, and sees US forces move into the area in 1990 and get away with flouting every law SA has. So he moves to Afghanistan and gets indoctrinated in to militant Islam, and takes a new wife. In response to 9/11, he gets taken prisoner after his village is bombed and his new wife killed. he winds up in Guantanamo, and then is transfered to Pakistan where he is tortured by members of US intelligence. He is eventually released, and somehow, he comes to the conclusion that the US is responsible for all his misery.Common thought all around him says the US is evil, and must be destroyed. he believes this. So he tries to do the work Allah wills.

Back to the sniper. Privately, he is congratulated for saving NYC. Publicly he is lambasted for killing an infant, and faces charges. The infant's parents hate him beyond passion. Most are sickened by what he did, some see it was necessary, and almost everyone shuns him. A pariah in his own country and he probably saved the world from a nuclear war. .

His wife leaves him and takes the children. Wracked by guilt, he suicides. the Catholics say he burns in hell. The protestants pray for his blackened soul. The Muslims dance in the streets. His wife writes a tell all and makes millions, whiole abusing her kids. taking her anger at her former husband out on his children.. She hoards it ands spends it and neglects her children, leaving no legacy or support, all the while playing martyr to a monster husband. Children have enough after being disowned and disgraced in public and abused, smother her to death, and get the death penalty for special circumstances; however, they remain on death row while the morality of the death penalty is played out in papers and pulpits and in politics, all to the plump the self image of self appointed experts and guardians of the public good.

Good?
Bad?
Black?
White?
Right?
Wrong?

I don't think so.

What it is, is a mess.

-Nomad

[Tarrick]

There is right and wrong, black and white.

@ the Sniper point:

Is it wrong to harm the innocent? Yes.
Is it right to stop harm to the innocent? Yes.

However what we have here is a intersection of two events: The death of the innocent and the death of the guilty.

The intent of the single action is to save, but the consequences of those actions also involve something that is wrong. The intent of the shooter isn't wrong, but the knowledge of what he is doing (killing the innocent) adds a dimension to his actions. In effect he is committing both good and evil at the same time, but one is of different magnitude than the other. The death of innocents to save other innocents is always sticky because of the dimensions of good and evil sparked by individual actions.

[TheLoneINTJ]

Hi, Ijz

In terms of age, yes, I'm probably one of the older forum members.

Give me some time to formulate my thoughts - maybe a couple of weeks.

Some learning experiences have been painful, but you just don't quit.

At some point, I intend to address this more fully.

Scott, my thoughts are that things MUST be black or white. If somethig is 'gray', it means that it hasn't been put into perspective yet or fully understood.

Or maybe everything is all gray in actuality and its useless to frustrate ourselves by putting things into black or white.

[Charlie Mc.]

I believe the disparity in opinions among INTJ's comes from the disparity in experiences. Everyone has different experiences and no one even experiences the same event identically. Intuition comes from the information available to you IE your experiences. We may use similar processes to make decisions, but we are all basing those decisions off of different information. Hence we all get different results. I personally believe in absolute truth, or a most right answer if you will. Can we reach that answer? I don't know, but I firmly believe that striving towards truth is a good thing and that the closer we get towards the ultimate truth the better. Until you have reached that ultimate goal, we are stuck with relative terms like better, and more right, and all the other shades of grey. In the end though, striving towards a common goal, doesn't mean we take the same path to get there.

[deicruxified]

Black and white, right and wrong. I'm an older member here, (but I believe Rick has seniority)

As a sniper:

At 500 meters, you see through your crosshatch an infant. You squeeze the trigger. Wrong. Black. Evil.

Behind the infant is a terrorist attempting to detonate a nuclear weapon. by firring at and through the infant, you saved a seven million people from near instant death, and untold numbers from radiation sickness. You also likely prevented a war that could consume an untold number of lives.

Terrorist is a terrorist because a US navy battleship shelled his village to destruction in the hills above Beruit, he then moved to Palestine and was in a refugee camp that was subjected to a raid by Israel where his new wife and child were accidentially killed by a stray bomb provided by the US. he moves to Saudi Arabia for work, and sees US forces move into the area in 1990 and get away with flouting every law SA has. So he moves to Afghanistan and gets indoctrinated in to militant Islam, and takes a new wife. In response to 9/11, he gets taken prisoner after his village is bombed and his new wife killed. he winds up in Guantanamo, and then is transfered to Pakistan where he is tortured by members of US intelligence. He is eventually released, and somehow, he comes to the conclusion that the US is responsible for all his misery.Common thought all around him says the US is evil, and must be destroyed. he believes this. So he tries to do the work Allah wills.

Back to the sniper. Privately, he is congratulated for saving NYC. Publicly he is lambasted for killing an infant, and faces charges. The infant's parents hate him beyond passion. Most are sickened by what he did, some see it was necessary, and almost everyone shuns him. A pariah in his own country and he probably saved the world from a nuclear war. .

His wife leaves him and takes the children. Wracked by guilt, he suicides. the Catholics say he burns in hell. The protestants pray for his blackened soul. The Muslims dance in the streets. His wife writes a tell all and makes millions, whiole abusing her kids. taking her anger at her former husband out on his children.. She hoards it ands spends it and neglects her children, leaving no legacy or support, all the while playing martyr to a monster husband. Children have enough after being disowned and disgraced in public and abused, smother her to death, and get the death penalty for special circumstances; however, they remain on death row while the morality of the death penalty is played out in papers and pulpits and in politics, all to the plump the self image of self appointed experts and guardians of the public good.

Good?
Bad?
Black?
White?
Right?
Wrong?

I don't think so.

What it is, is a mess.

-Nomad
*bows* i can't say anything less. in relation to my previous post, at Feelings and Decision making, it's more of compromise or choosing the lesser evil...

there's no actually black or white for intj's. i do guess it's more of us deciding what's best in a certain situation and being firm at it because we think it's right. rules are rules... morality is morality... however, if the situation needs the law be bent, it's up to our minds to debunk whatever ethos, morality, rules etc that we know and make a decision.

[rwyatt365]

What I'm seeing here among INTJ's is that we, almost without exception, approach problems the same way.

What really surprises me is the diversity here. We do not have the same beliefs, at all. The extreme differences I'm seeing are a big surprise.

Just an observation. In my mind, things should only be black or white - no gray areas. So, why is it that so many of us have strict black and white areas that conflict completely with the black and white areas of other INTJ's?

Great subject Rick. The diversity you see is probably a function of our different environments. As Ijz says;
Yes the differences are remarkable. I personally don't think in increasing once intelligence, but rather think of it as acquiring new knowledge. Our INTJ'ness points us in a certain direction, however its still up to every individual to choose the path. There are so many aspects to life, that it is rare to meet someone who has taken all the same paths. However, the chances of meeting people that have taken the same path in a certain area are much higher because of our similar mind-sets.
Our INTJ-ness is a system of thinking that molds the path that we take to solve problems and form conclusions, but the conclusions formed are not necessarily the same ones. The exact route is influenced by our particular circumstances. Just like each snowflake that falls from the clouds follows a generally downward path, each ones movement through the cloud is influenced by the particular winds that it encounters. Thus all snowflakes are (for the most part) six-sided, but each one is unique. So, we are all INTJ-like in our thought patterns, but each one is influenced by what we've encountered in our lives and are likewise unique.

As far as a "back-and-white" viewpoint; I have none. To me, there are no "absolute truths" outside of purely mathematical constructs. When it comes to moral, or ethical situations there is no absolute good/evil – those conditions are a construct of the society and can change between different societies and over time within a society. Nomad's example shows the fluidity of good/bad as the individuals crossed societies and circumstances. "Good" is always defined by the victor, the vanquished is always "evil".

[Jennywocky]

Black and white, right and wrong. I'm an older member here, (but I believe Rick has seniority)

As a sniper:
[long example]

Good?
Bad?
Black?
White?
Right?
Wrong?
I don't think so.
What it is, is a mess.

Beautiful example. You really covered all the bases and showed the situation from all the points of views, and how "gray" it all is from the overhead perspective, even if particular people within the scenario have black and white views.

Very nice. :)

[Jedi_sena]

I'm new, and probably sound like a five-year old saying this, but... the description given for INTJ is that we live largely inside our own minds and develope standards of our individual liking and then hold ourselves and everyone else to those standards. That would be a recipe for vastly unique viewpoints.

[Gaius Baltar]

Good topic, Rick. I've been feeling the same way during these past few weeks.

I've already pissed a few people off and have probably made some enemies, and I haven't been here very long. I'm used to that everywhere else, but I was a bit surprised to find it so quickly among other INTJs.

I've found myself honestly surprised more than once while staying here. I've discovered that what I thought were solid INTJ points of view on the subject were in fact not the case. Some people feel very differently about the same subject, yet they're still INTJ.

My path seems to be a bit unusual even among INTJs, apparently. Lots of hard science types here. While I love hard science, my strongest focuses are on the social sciences. I'm very good at grasping the long term goals and ambitions of a society at large, and I usually don't need a ton of hard data to make great predictions, too. I've gotten pretty good at predicting what governments will or will not do, even though this isn't an exact science.

I think a lot of people are playing the safe bet by saying that these differences are primarily due to environment and experience. I most definitely agree that this is a major factor. However, I believe that there's different intelligence and maturity levels among us too. While I've discovered that almost all INTJs are above average in intelligence and maturity, we are not all equal.

This does not imply that I believe that I'm smarter or more mature than everyone here. It does not mean that I'm constantly trying to compare myself to others, but the differences do jump out at times. I simply believe that there's a multitude of factors at work here, and not just one explaination.

About the black and white thing... I'm a very shades of grey sort of guy myself. I strongly dislike ideas such as good and evil. This doesn't mean that I won't wade in there and eventually made a strong judgement and take a stance somewhere. I just tend to see all sides as not being so cut and dried.

Regardless, it's been quite an experience for me here. I'd like to thank the admins for letting us hang out here for free.

[Charlie Mc.]

This does not imply that I believe that I'm smarter or more mature than everyone here. It does not mean that I'm constantly trying to compare myself to others, but the differences do jump out at times. I simply believe that there's a multitude of factors at work here, and not just one explanation.


Come on Gaius, It is well known that the measure of someones intelligence is how much they agree with you. ;D

On a more serious note, I agree with what you say. Maturity and Intelligence do have alot to do with viewpoints as do experience in life. I firmly believe that people who travel and are exposed to different cultures from their own have a better perspective on things, but that requires they have the intellect and maturity to appreciate the information available to them, and to draw the correct conclusions from it.

[ThisTimeAround9]

On the disparity of opinions among INTJs...

If we had all the information and an infinite ability to process it, there would be a lot more black and white in the world. Particularly among like-minded people like we have on this forum. In reality, even like-minded people can fall on different sides of the fence, even if they have taken similar paths. Values and opinions are formed through chaos. Choices of morality, religion, etc can be so fragile that the outcome is mostly random.

The real truth, the objective reality of something, the black and white, is often incalculable.

But that is not to say we shouldn't try.

[Ijz]

If we had all the information and an infinite ability to process it, there would be a lot more black and white in the world. Particularly among like-minded people like we have on this forum. In reality, even like-minded people can fall on different sides of the fence, even if they have taken similar paths. Values and opinions are formed through chaos. Choices of morality, religion, etc can be so fragile that the outcome is mostly random.

The real truth, the objective reality of something, the black and white, is often incalculable.

But that is not to say we shouldn't try.

Interesting statement ThisTimeAround. As for how I look at it:

From a purely logical perspective I do not see how two people with the exact same information could lead to different opinions. If they do, they must have different information to them available.

On the other hand, our brains are immensely complex machines and the logic of our reasoning is not always visible to us. Add some levels of IQ, emotions and ego to the mix and you have an interesting combination which can lead to many different outcomes.

[GOD]

What I'm seeing here among INTJ's is that we, almost without exception, approach problems the same way.

What really surprises me is the diversity here. We do not have the same beliefs, at all. The extreme differences I'm seeing are a big surprise.

This shows you that Myers Briggs extension of Jungs work isn't that accurate, but it is generally "right".


I read a sci-fi book by Larry Niven named "Protector". In it, once a hominid ate a particular root (called 'tree of life' in the book), they achieved a much higher intelligence and were physically changed. Something that stuck me was that, once they achieved this higher intelligence, they would see the best solutions and act on them. Their free will would have somewhat disappeared because they all saw the best solutions automatically and would act to achieve this. Commonality because of intelligence, if you will.

Yes, the Bell shaped curve gradually moves over time as positive traits become normalised through reproduction via environmental fit etc.


Just an observation. In my mind, things should only be black or white - no gray areas. So, why is it that so many of us have strict black and white
areas that conflict completely with the black and white areas of other INTJ's?


The shade of any response should bear some correlation to divergence from the belief system you have. Not all solutions relate to questions of "fact" hence black and white is likely to be inappropriate.


I am also reminded of a quote: Intelligence is a tool to be used toward achieving goals, but goals are not always chosen intelligently.

Goals mean different things to different people.

[PhoenixRising]

Very interesting topic- I did read the book origionally mentioned and found is somewhat interesting, of more interest are the comments generated by the origional post.
For me In youth I was very much black and white oriented, however as time wears on and experience grows I've found that the black and white areas continue to shrink while the grey areas grow and multiply. I feel that this is in large part due to expereince teaching us to view events and circumstances from different angles and in doing so making a clear judgement in black and white less and less possible. By the same token each new experiece helps to shape and mold us or perhaps better yet allows us to shape and mold ourselves and our thinking... which is what "We" do... assimilate, see relationships, and form new Ideas or modify old ones based on new data, is it any wonder there is such diversity of beliefs from such a crowd?

[ThisTimeAround9]

Interesting statement ThisTimeAround. As for how I look at it:

From a purely logical perspective I do not see how two people with the exact same information could lead to different opinions. If they do, they must have different information to them available.

On the other hand, our brains are immensely complex machines and the logic of our reasoning is not always visible to us. Add some levels of IQ, emotions and ego to the mix and you have an interesting combination which can lead to many different outcomes.

This is true, but no two people have the same memories/experiences and genetics. It seems that a large number of factors can dramatically change someone's disposition, to the point where the 'algorithm' doesn't seem possible to estimate, let alone calculate.

Even two people with identical (but limited) information in their head could have very different dispositions if a single variable is introduced. Ex: one is fat, the other skinny. That one variable applied to all experiences creates chaos when attempting to determine the result.

This is all sort of obvious, but interesting to think about. :)

ThisTimeAround9 added, 317 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

I happened across this today. Here are two conjoined twins whose personalities differ. Its fun to think about what specifically may have caused them to have different personalities.

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