INTJ females: do you feel annoyed with men not respecting your intellect?

[universalis]

I am quite fascinated by this. I have only known one INTJ female in my life (particle physicist) and she was always annoyed by her male colleagues treating her as second rate having to prove herself just because she had a pair of ovaries and breasts. I'm wondering if others are like this too. Ironically she's the only female I do respect in that way.

My sample size being one, doesn't allow me to extrapolate.

[notthedroid]

I like it when men underestimate me. When I eventually pull the intellectual rug out from under them, the looks on their faces are priceless.

[Josephine1012]

I don't know if I get to participate since I'm not INTJ. But I am a female, in a highly technical field who is routinely underestimated due to both my flirtatious demeanor and the fact that I'm a girl.

I kind of like and encourage it as well. I can make my points when necessary, but I find it is much easier to get things done when men don't feel competitive. They tend to feel competitive when they are challenged by a female, so I don't like to challenge.

[notthedroid]

I kind of like and encourage it as well. I can make my points when necessary, but I find it is much easier to get things done when men don't feel competitive. They tend to feel competitive when they are challenged by a female, so I don't like to challenge.

True! Besides, being competitive means you acknowledge the other person as competition, so you're already in a losing position there. I like to think I have no competition. :-)

[intj1999]

I never really had that problem because I always went to special schools or programs for "gifted" people where it did not matter what sex you are. Most of my friends are men and I tend to act more like a man than a woman. If you dress in a suit (and don't show skin) and you speak with authority, people tend to respect you. If they do not respect you, it shows that they are lacking in social skills.

[Colette]

It doesn't annoy me, but in my case I think my intellect 'distances' me from many men, in terms of prospective relationships. I wish I could do something about this, but I find it hard to dumb myself down.

[intj1999]

It doesn't annoy me, but in my case I think my intellect 'distances' me from many men, in terms of prospective relationships. I wish I could do something about this, but I find it hard to dumb myself down.

Yeah, that is a serious problem. I have tried to settle for less and it always ends in disaster.

[Solaris]

I would hate myself, and destroy him out of pure malice if I dumbed down. No can do. I don't often find many men that I can't get respect from though. Women often have more problems with me than men. Go figure that most of my friends are, then, men.

[notthedroid]

It doesn't annoy me, but in my case I think my intellect 'distances' me from many men, in terms of prospective relationships. I wish I could do something about this, but I find it hard to dumb myself down.

Very true. Sometimes I wish I could drop around 30 IQ points. I'd still be bright, but my relationship prospects would be much better (or, say, existent). I need an intellectual equal or better, and they are so painfully rare. I have yet to find anyone who can really give me a run for my money. Which is probably why I am considering getting five cats and starting a collection of holiday themed sweatshirts.

INTJ females - we rock, and yet what makes us awesome is what dooms many of us to miss out, and we know it.

[intj1999]

Very true. Sometimes I wish I could drop around 30 IQ points. I'd still be bright, but my relationship prospects would be much better (or, say, existent). I need an intellectual equal or better, and they are so painfully rare. I have yet to find anyone who can really give me a run for my money. Which is probably why I am considering getting five cats and starting a collection of holiday themed sweatshirts.

INTJ females - we rock, and yet what makes us awesome is what dooms many of us to lose, and we know it.

LOL, so true and so frustrating.
There has to be a way to overcome this.

[notthedroid]

There has to be a way to overcome this.

I am thinking that by the time robotics and artificial intelligence progress to the point to be a solution, it will be too late for me and I would only want one for dishwashing and folding laundry. But just think - when you don't want to pay attention to him you could turn him off and put him in the closet!

"Coin operated boy" is stuck in my head.

[universalis]

I am thinking that by the time robotics and artificial intelligence progress to the point to be a solution, it will be too late for me and I would only want one for dishwashing and folding laundry. But just think - when you don't want to pay attention to him you could turn him off and put him in the closet!

"Coin operated boy" is stuck in my head.

Hahaha you people are hillarious.

OMG Solaris is female. WTF! That avatar is so ENTJ. Off topic but do you get in guys space's, poking them in a friendly manner and shit like that? .





mattosphere added to this post, 3 minutes and 26 seconds later...

Very true. Sometimes I wish I could drop around 30 IQ points. I'd still be bright, but my relationship prospects would be much better (or, say, existent). I need an intellectual equal or better, and they are so painfully rare. .

I read a study a few months ago on IQ disparity to divorce rate. Can't find the link, but the basic gist is. If you want to be happy, dumbing down aint the way.

[notthedroid]

Off topic but do you get in guys space's, poking them in a friendly manner and shit like that?

The only time I can remember doing so in the last few years was when I sensed a male friend of mine was really down in the dumps, so I touched him on the shoulder and cracked a joke to cheer him up, kind of a solidarity thing. But normally I am very careful not to get in a guy's space or touch him, lest I give him the wrong impression. I've had too many problems with men misinterpreting my intentions.

I read a study a few months ago IQ disparity to divorce rate. Can't find the link, but the basic gist is. If you want to be happy, dumbing down aint the way.

To get to divorce, you have to get married. I can't find anyone worth dating! I am failing on stage one. Failing on stage three is not a concern.

[Luthor Rex]

I am quite fascinated by this. I have only known one INTJ female in my life (particle physicist) and she was always annoyed by her male colleagues treating her as second rate having to prove herself just because she had a pair of ovaries and breasts. I'm wondering if others are like this too. Ironically she's the only female I do respect in that way.

My sample size being one, doesn't allow me to extrapolate.

Well you can't blame us men, most women we meet in our lifetimes will be idiots. Gifted women (IQ's over 130) are something like less than 2% of the population. So we'll meet one maybe ever few years? If I was gambling and 98%+ of the time the roulette wheel always ended up on black I think I'd be justified to assume the next roll will be black until proven otherwise.

[universalis]

To get to divorce, you have to get married. I can't find anyone worth dating! I am failing on stage one. Failing on stage three is not a concern.

Yah I'm with you on this one. I'm rather social for an INTJ, (forced myself to be a few years ago), since I wanted girls. I'd hang around with non-NT friends, go clubbing, etc. I'm bored of partying and drinking as you never meet intellectuals that way, just good looking collection of atoms that can be ravaged and discarded. Rather dull in the long run.

[Luthor Rex]

I don't know if I get to participate since I'm not INTJ. But I am a female, in a highly technical field who is routinely underestimated due to both my flirtatious demeanor

Men are correct in not taking you seriously then. You're just a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen aren't you?

[universalis]

Well you can't blame us men, most women we meet in our lifetimes will be idiots. Gifted women (IQ's over 130) are something like less than 2% of the population. So we'll meet one maybe ever few years? If I was gambling and 98%+ of the time the roulette wheel always ended up on black I think I'd be justified to assume the next roll will be black until proven otherwise.

Yeah the trouble is I know exactly what I want. Attractive, IQ 130+, 23 year old in the same city, pref ENTP or maybe and INTJ. Probability of meeting those criteria in population 2 million, almost 0.

I don't mind dying alone. In fact I don't plan on dying so I'll just rewire myself not to need sex. :)

[Sinequanon]

I'm not a woman (I waited for some dudes to crash into the thread before I jumped in :)), but I would be annoyed with anyone who didn't respect my intellect.

That said I've always argued that there's a certain power that can be wielded by being underestimated. The sorts of interrelations with power and people aren't as black and white as some social theories attempt to portray.

[notthedroid]

Well you can't blame us men, most women we meet in our lifetimes will be idiots.

I don't blame them, but I think men have an easier time accepting partners less intelligent than themselves, which means they have a much wider selection of potential dating partners. Kind of makes me jealous.

Dumb guys are boner killers, bluntly. Sometimes I just want to yell at them to say one very smart thing and then shut the hell up.

[Josephine1012]

Men are correct in not taking you seriously then. You're just a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen aren't you?

Lol, not at all. And it isn't that they don't take me seriously is that they don't feel at odds with me. Just because you're friendly doesn't mean you're a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen.

I primarily bridge the gap between very technical and business people. It's important that I am liked and not threatening. I don't have to brag about my IQ.

There is a big difference between acting sexually inappropriate and being friendly and light-hearted.

Most people have no trouble identifying that difference.

[Solaris]

Hahaha you people are hillarious.

OMG Solaris is female. WTF! That avatar is so ENTJ. Off topic but do you get in guys space's, poking them in a friendly manner and shit like that? .



Holy crap!! I am. :P Anyway, this is my Halloween Avatar, I thought it suited my type. So far, I've been right.

I absolutely get in guy's spaces. That may be partly because I take martial arts, but I think not. I've always been that way.

On the dumbing down for a spouse -- I agree, don't. My ex was not stupid, but we weren't exactly equals. Since I said ex, you can guess success was not there.

[universalis]

Holy crap!! I am. :P Anyway, this is my Halloween Avatar, I thought it suited my type. So far, I've been right.

I absolutely get in guy's spaces. That may be partly because I take martial arts, but I think not. I've always been that way.

On the dumbing down for a spouse -- I agree, don't. My ex was not stupid, but we weren't exactly equals. Since I said ex, you can guess success was not there.

Haha good times - I suspected!. It's just like an ENTJ female I know. Lots of fun, she is nice and crude like the boys too.

So what's a efficient killing machine doing in a cold place like this? I'd grapple with you but I suspect I would be outmatched. I definitely suspect ENTJ's like physical combat. My business partner is a ENTJ. Loves MMA and pride fighting.

[rara avis]

I'm working in a support position right now in order to go to school, and the nature of such a job is generally to be underestimated. So I can take it. I'm not in a position where I feel competitive (I don't care a bit about the industry) and without that aspect, I'm not bothered by what people think, just as long as they stay out of my way. I harbor the sense that if it came to it, I could take most of them down before they knew what was happening, anyway. (Not physically, mind you.)

Of course, I like to think I'm all stealthy, flying under the radar- but do have the occasional gratifying moment when someone gives me a doubletake, or a nervous laugh.

I definitely alter my behavior more around women than men.

As for dating... I'm practicing hard at being, as my sister says with serious irony, "breezy!!!" and just trying like damn to have fun without writing people off immediately. But I'm having a difficult time finding a man who both compliments me and who could, on a psychological level, really give me a run for my money. I just can't be nicey-nicey all the time.

I feel like I'm expending alot of energy protecting people from myself.

Hope that didn't get too far off topic...

[alphawolf]

I don't respect anybody for how intellectual they are. I respect them for demonstrating how capable they are. Action has to be witnessed.

[Josephine1012]

I don't respect anybody for how intellectual they are. I respect them for demonstrating how capable they are. Action has to be witnessed.

Well, of course! But why bother proving yourself to someone who doesn't matter (hypothetically speaking). There is no point in laying all your cards out on the table.

[Solaris]

Haha good times - I suspected!. It's just like an ENTJ female I know. Lots of fun, she is nice and crude like the boys too.

So what's a efficient killing machine doing in a cold place like this? I'd grapple with you but I suspect I would be outmatched. I definitely suspect ENTJ's like physical combat. My business partner is a ENTJ. Loves MMA and pride fighting.

I get along well with INTJs. Pretty much every male best friend I've had was one. When I realized that, I wondered why -- and how, I mean, it's not a common type. I do like physical contact, in many ways. Playfighting just comes more naturally than hugging.

I'm working in a support position right now in order to go to school, and the nature of such a job is generally to be underestimated. So I can take it. I'm not in a position where I feel competitive (I don't care a bit about the industry) and without that aspect, I'm not bothered by what people think, just as long as they stay out of my way. I harbor the sense that if it came to it, I could take most of them down before they knew what was happening, anyway. (Not physically, mind you.)

Of course, I like to think I'm all stealthy, flying under the radar- but do have the occasional gratifying moment when someone gives me a doubletake, or a nervous laugh.

I definitely alter my behavior more around women than men.

As for dating... I'm practicing hard at being, as my sister says with serious irony, "breezy!!!" and just trying like damn to have fun without writing people off immediately. But I'm having a difficult time finding a man who both compliments me and who could, on a psychological level, really give me a run for my money. I just can't be nicey-nicey all the time.

I feel like I'm expending alot of energy protecting people from myself.

Hope that didn't get too far off topic...

Which "self" are you protecting people from? I do the same, but am wondering what you think you, specifically, are protecting people from. It's not often my intellectual self that I think they need protecting from, it's my emotional self. I try to keep that under wraps -- but I'm awful at masking it, so it usually sneaks out via facial expressions when I don't mean it to.

I think one reason I prefer the company of men, is that they don't often get or see this subtle stuff -- or they don't ask about it if they see it. I can just be me -- intelligent, sarcastic, funny, playful, flirty, whatever comes out. I am more on guard with women, and they tend to get more jealous of my intelligence than man.

[Deliberator]

I haven't encountered this yet. Of course so far I haven't had a serious job, and my major is almost exclusively women. I feel like women are less aggressive about their opinions, but also less open to new ideas. They get really ruffled when I propose new and interesting theories, like they're being threatened. Maybe it's just that I haven't had enough experience but I think I prefer men honestly. My favorite mentor is incidentally male, and not in my major. He is almost definitely an INTP.

The male characters I've come in contact with who haven't respected my opinions have been doctors. No surprise there. I just whip out some of my knowledge and watch them squirm a little. Doesn't bother me.

I guess I probably would be bothered in a group setting where my ideas weren't being recognized because I was a female. That would suck. But for some reason I don't think I'll have a problem.

[Monte314]

My wife is smarter than I. That makes it difficult to look down on women because of their gender.

[Mau]

looking down at wecomes comes naturally to me. Kidding.

[cullenisacreep]

Of course it's annoying, but it also helps me weed out primitive oafs from my circle of acquaintances.

[Lucid]

Well you can't blame us men, most women we meet in our lifetimes will be idiots. Gifted women (IQ's over 130) are something like less than 2% of the population. So we'll meet one maybe ever few years? If I was gambling and 98%+ of the time the roulette wheel always ended up on black I think I'd be justified to assume the next roll will be black until proven otherwise.

This is hilarious.

2.5% of the population (both male and female) are very superior in intelligence (over 130). Men have, on average, a 3-5 point IQ lead on women. On the scale of IQ scores, 3-5 points is pretty insignificant. So the number of women with IQs over 130 is only slightly less than the number of men with IQs over 130. At the level you're speaking of, the distribution of gifted women is roughly equal to that of gifted men, although the higher (or lower) you go on the scale, the greater the male/female gap. Meaning that men are likelier to have significantly high IQs (over 170)... but they're also likelier to have extremely low IQs as well.


Anyway. :rolleyes:

It's annoying and frustrating. But it also allows me to quickly identify the irrational and ignorant who walk among us.

Also, not all INTJs of either gender are intelligent. And there are lots of non-INTJs of both genders who are gifted. While type may be somehow related to one's intelligence, just scoring as an INTJ doesn't automatically get you into Mensa.

However, because our type is the least likely to try to fit in or to cave to social pressures, it's likely that most INTJ females who are intelligent are very apparently so, whereas women of other types might be less overt with it. With respect to the OP, since he knows only one female whom he respects on an intellectual level, perhaps he should look to his own gender bias. :)

[Andrew Popovici]

Well, don't get pissy but yes, there is a general stereotype that women are less smart (in general) than guys.

But the thing is, what we (INTJ guys in general) really like are those rare exceptions when there is a woman that breaks the mold to prove us wrong. There's one girl at my school that comes to mind. She's pretty outspoken, quite intelligent yet very humble, open-mided, jumps into debates and arguments head-on but is able to back herself sufficiently. She's really something else. And when you make it clear that you are different from every other bubbly, empty-minded, shallow materialistic chick out there, that's really something else. Don't worry about it though. INTJs are good at ignoring people's criticisms :)

[INTJane]

do you feel annoyed with men not respecting your intellect?

Sure, when this happens.

I'd imagine INTJ males would also feel annoyed with other males not respecting their intellect?

[notthedroid]

I'd imagine INTJ males would also feel annoyed with other males not respecting their intellect?

Excellent point.

I think the reasons why males are underestimated are typically less insulting.

That said, I don't run into this much. Most males I know are pretty enlightened and accepting of females in their mostly male club/group/whatever. If you can walk the walk, you're okay.

[Lucid]

Excellent point.

I think the reasons why males are underestimated are typically less insulting.

That said, I don't run into this much. Most males I know are pretty enlightened and accepting of females in their mostly male club/group/whatever. If you can walk the walk, you're okay.

Agreed. This is important to acknowledge. I think the place I run into the most outspoken sexism is on this forum, and even here it's by far the minority.

While there may be some amount of stereotyping that intelligent women of any type have to overcome, most people that I encounter are pretty fair minded and will judge a person by what comes out of his or her mouth, rather than their gender.

[rara avis]

Which "self" are you protecting people from? I do the same, but am wondering what you think you, specifically, are protecting people from. It's not often my intellectual self that I think they need protecting from, it's my emotional self. I try to keep that under wraps -- but I'm awful at masking it, so it usually sneaks out via facial expressions when I don't mean it to.

I'm just working at being gentle and fair, and sometimes I really feel the burn. I have an internal switch that flips very decisively to tell me when I'm DONE with someone- in a conversation, a relationship, a meeting...

And yes, I am a terrible, terrible actor, too- to the endless amusement of my friends- I put a lot of work into being patient and kind and explaining my view, but I think, in spite of my calm demeanor, occasionally people can see their death in my eyes. Er, so to speak. They can see that if I had the button for the trapdoor that's under their feet, I'd totally push it without blinking, because OK, we're done, here. And they don't know why, or what suddenly changed.

I think just about everybody experiences this to some extent, but I'm conscious of it all the time, especially in more artificial situations. I'm not all that wise or powerful- but experience has taught me that I can damage people unnecessarily harshly when I just speak my mind outright. I've been called "cutting." The smallest actions loom large to some people in interpersonal situations... and I don't actually want to hurt anyone- even when I think what they're doing is stupid. I just want them out of the way.

So, as my smartass grandmother used to say with disgust, "Nicey-nicey!" I do the "Gosh, Aren't I Quirky?" routine a lot.

I don't know whether that's all intellectual or emotional. I think it's emotion requiring a manual down-shift of intellect?

[Colette]

I also notice at work (which is female dominated - I work for Government) that when a male opens his mouth, people (including women) tend to listen more and harder than they do when a woman talks. I've noticed that women are more likely to get talked over than men, and more likely to be challenged on any opinion they're expressing. This is just a personal observation; it might be different in other contexts.

[Deliberator]

I also notice at work (which is female dominated - I work for Government) that when a male opens his mouth, people (including women) tend to listen more and harder than they do when a woman talks. I've noticed that women are more likely to get talked over than men, and more likely to be challenged on any opinion they're expressing. This is just a personal observation; it might be different in other contexts.

You know, I've noticed that females tend to be especially guilty of this. Whatever the cause is, it bugs the hell out of me.

I've also noticed that in my classes (which are mostly female) if a guy is talking and says something even slightly humorous the room bursts with indulgent giggles. That sure as hell doesn't happen when girls are talking.

[Josephine1012]

You know, I've noticed that females tend to be especially guilty of this. Whatever the cause is, it bugs the hell out of me.

I've also noticed that in my classes (which are mostly female) if a guy is talking and says something even slightly humorous the room bursts with indulgent giggles. That sure as hell doesn't happen when girls are talking.

Is it possible that most females tend to evaluate other females as competition... hence when another female excels at something, they view it in the light of comparison to themselves. Hence they process information in a threatening manner. No time to laugh then.

On the other hand, when a female evaluates a male, it is initially instinctively (I'm trying to be careful here) from mating perspective. So if it so happens that a male excels the reaction is quite different.

I think it works differently with male to male interactions. Perhaps, males don't view such remarks in the realm of competition. I haven't given that aspect much thought yet. Perhaps, a lot of women are more insecure in this area...

Please note my use of "most" as I am not trying to stereotype just find a sociological explanation to the phenomenon.

[Colette]

Is it possible that most females tend to evaluate other females as competition... hence when another female excels at something, they view it in the light of comparison to themselves. Hence they process information in a threatening manner. No time to laugh then.


I'm sure there's an element of that. Women will always judge each other more harshly than they will a man, in all kinds of ways. Unless they are good friends, they are less likely generally to 'affirm' each other in a mixed crowd than they are to affirm a male.

I think there's also something else at play in the scenario Deliberator described. Men have a greater ego investment than women in humour, imo. Accordingly it's more important for a male to feel (and be perceived) as 'funny' or 'witty' than it is for a women to be so perceived. Thus women (and men too) will tend to affirm a male more frequently (and at a lower threshold) when it comes to humour, than they would a woman. They're more likely to validate a woman's appearance (note how often a woman will get a comment on her hair or outfit, as compared with a male), or on something such as parenting (how often are men asked how their kids are, or what stage they're at, as compared with a woman who has children)?

Well, I could be flying a tattered kite here, but I don't think so ;)

[alphawolf]

But the thing is, what we (INTJ guys in general) really like are those rare exceptions when there is a woman that breaks the mold to prove us wrong. There's one girl at my school that comes to mind. She's pretty outspoken, quite intelligent yet very humble, open-mided, jumps into debates and arguments head-on but is able to back herself sufficiently. She's really something else. And when you make it clear that you are different from every other bubbly, empty-minded, shallow materialistic chick out there, that's really something else.

That's what I call admiration.

Don't let her get away.

[Lucid]

I also notice at work (which is female dominated - I work for Government) that when a male opens his mouth, people (including women) tend to listen more and harder than they do when a woman talks. I've noticed that women are more likely to get talked over than men, and more likely to be challenged on any opinion they're expressing. This is just a personal observation; it might be different in other contexts.

I think this is true. At least it typically is in my experience. I don't think people do it on purpose, rather that it's so ingrained in our society that it's unconscious.

While it's annoying, it has made it so that I can back up my opinions and so that I require that others do the same before I'll take them seriously. Also, try and talk over me. It doesn't help that I was raised by lawyers either. :)

You know, I've noticed that females tend to be especially guilty of this. Whatever the cause is, it bugs the hell out of me.

I've also noticed that in my classes (which are mostly female) if a guy is talking and says something even slightly humorous the room bursts with indulgent giggles. That sure as hell doesn't happen when girls are talking.

I've noticed this as well. However, I think that when there are just a few females in a class full of men it works the other way around. In most of my classes in college women outnumbered the men and the men got the most laughs. However, I minored in philosophy and in those classes (especially the formal logic classes) men outnumbered women by quite a bit. I noticed that in those classes any comment I made generally got more laughs than comments made by most men.

Although it's also possible that the philosophy majors just got my sense of humor better. :)

[intj1999]

I am thinking that by the time robotics and artificial intelligence progress to the point to be a solution, it will be too late for me and I would only want one for dishwashing and folding laundry. But just think - when you don't want to pay attention to him you could turn him off and put him in the closet!

"Coin operated boy" is stuck in my head.

Very funny. I actually know Amanda, but she is no INTJ. More like ENFJ.





intj1999 added to this post, 18 minutes and 52 seconds later...

I'm sure there's an element of that. Women will always judge each other more harshly than they will a man, in all kinds of ways. Unless they are good friends, they are less likely generally to 'affirm' each other in a mixed crowd than they are to affirm a male.

I think there's also something else at play in the scenario Deliberator described. Men have a greater ego investment than women in humour, imo. Accordingly it's more important for a male to feel (and be perceived) as 'funny' or 'witty' than it is for a women to be so perceived. Thus women (and men too) will tend to affirm a male more frequently (and at a lower threshold) when it comes to humour, than they would a woman. They're more likely to validate a woman's appearance (note how often a woman will get a comment on her hair or outfit, as compared with a male), or on something such as parenting (how often are men asked how their kids are, or what stage they're at, as compared with a woman who has children)?


I agree with this and it really bothers me when people try to give me a compliment based on my appearance. If I hear someone telling me that she likes my shoes or my outfit, my first reaction is to run away. Someone actually had to tell me that I should say "thank you" when someone gives me a compliment on the way I look.
It never occurred to me that this is something positive.(and I am a woman, but I cannot think like one).

[Synamon]

I've noticed this as well. However, I think that when there are just a few females in a class full of men it works the other way around. In most of my classes in college women outnumbered the men and the men got the most laughs. However, I minored in philosophy and in those classes (especially the formal logic classes) men outnumbered women by quite a bit. I noticed that in those classes any comment I made generally got more laughs than comments made by most men.


I agree that it's more about the novelty than about social constructs. When I was the only female at work a hush would fall over the room just by me walking into it. In a class room or social situation where there aren't many women, everyone listens to the women and talks over the men.

[Deliberator]

I agree with this and it really bothers me when people try to give me a compliment based on my appearance. If I hear someone telling me that she likes my shoes or my outfit, my first reaction is to run away. Someone actually had to tell me that I should say "thank you" when someone gives me a compliment on the way I look.
It never occurred to me that this is something positive.(and I am a woman, but I cannot think like one).

I used to have the same problem. Although now that I've learned just to say 'thank you' I'm beginning to have a closer fondness for pretty clothes and shoes.

[intj1999]

I used to have the same problem. Although now that I've learned just to say 'thank you' I'm beginning to have a closer fondness for pretty clothes and shoes.

But, can we be taken seriously, if we dress a certain way? I have found that when I dress in a conservative fashion, people listen and show respect. If I wear a skirt or anything that shows my figure, no one listens to me. It is ridiculous and sexist and true, unfortunately.

[Deliberator]

But, can we be taken seriously, if we dress a certain way? I have found that when I dress in a conservative fashion, people listen and show respect. If I wear a skirt or anything that shows my figure, no one listens to me. It is ridiculous and sexist and true, unfortunately.

I haven't come across this yet but I am worried about it. I don't want to dress in boring way for the rest of my life.

[notthedroid]

They're more likely to validate a woman's appearance (note how often a woman will get a comment on her hair or outfit, as compared with a male)

I go out of my way to compliment men on their appearance as positive encouragement. I figure they need it more than my female friends. Nothing too personal, just, "Hey, I like the color of your shirt." or something. Seriously, most of them need help. It's like my secret personal mission to better the world.





notthedroid added to this post, 24 minutes and 15 seconds later...

But, can we be taken seriously, if we dress a certain way? I have found that when I dress in a conservative fashion, people listen and show respect. If I wear a skirt or anything that shows my figure, no one listens to me. It is ridiculous and sexist and true, unfortunately.

I have learned a great deal from one friend/ex-roommate of mine who is probably an ESTJ and a former stripper. Holy crap does she know how to exploit an outfit. She is a very sharp cookie - she leaves no doubt that she has a brain and uses it. She is very much like the femme fatale of film noir. I can't take things to her extremes - not my style - but I have really learned the value of dressing up a little bit and being, well, female. I don't think it's something our personality type is naturally comfortable with (I think we tend to treat it like roadkill and poke it with a stick from a safe distance), but if you can become in tune with being a woman and being an INTJ ... It's like owning the world when you walk down the street.

Some men are sexist, and will always be so. I personally see no reason to deny what I am and restrict myself because of their poor reasoning. Hey, I'm female, and I'm awesome, and if I want to wear a little bit of makeup and a nice skirt and killer heels and feel like a zillion dollars, you are just going to have to deal.

[Synamon]

Some men are sexist, and will always be so. I personally see no reason to deny what I am and restrict myself because of their poor reasoning. Hey, I'm female, and I'm awesome, and if I want to wear a little bit of makeup and a nice skirt and killer heels and feel like a zillion dollars, you are just going to have to deal.
Anyone who is sexist will discriminate against you just because you are female, it won't matter one bit how you dress. They may insult the way you dress, but they would just find something else to pick at you about if you dressed like a nun. You are exactly right to dress in a way that makes you feel good.

[intj1999]

I am not so sure that I agree about the clothing. I have done some modeling in the past and I know how to play up my assets and how to dress them down, and I want to believe that the clothes do not have any correlation to the way you are perceived, but my personal experience had been that when I wear clothes that resemble masculine suits, people respond very differently than when I wear a dress and high heels.

[universalis]

I am not so sure that I agree about the clothing. I have done some modeling in the past and I know how to play up my assets and how to dress them down, and I want to believe that the clothes do not have any correlation to the way you are perceived, but my personal experience had been that when I wear clothes that resemble masculine suits, people respond very differently than when I wear a dress and high heels.

Just how when I dress smart and drive an expensive car, I automatically garnish respect from strangers. But if I catch a cab and im wearing a sweater I don't. Amazing stuff. :)

[notthedroid]

I am not so sure that I agree about the clothing. I have done some modeling in the past and I know how to play up my assets and how to dress them down, and I want to believe that the clothes do not have any correlation to the way you are perceived, but my personal experience had been that when I wear clothes that resemble masculine suits, people respond very differently than when I wear a dress and high heels.

I think it is a power that one should know how to use, instead of being afraid of it and stuffing it in the closet. I know too many smart women who are scared to be seen as female because of what men will think, which is bull.

It's just one more weapon in a substantial arsenal. Use wisely.

[intj1999]

I think it is a power that one should know how to use, instead of being afraid of it and stuffing it in the closet. I know too many smart women who are scared to be seen as female because of what men will think, which is bull.

It's just one more weapon in a substantial arsenal. Use wisely.

But when should one use it? If I am at work, I do not want the guys to be thinking about my breasts, when I am talking about a contract. I need them to focus on the work, not me. I do not like to manipulate men with my body. Too many women tend to do that and it really bothers me.

[rara avis]

I think it is a power that one should know how to use, instead of being afraid of it and stuffing it in the closet. I know too many smart women who are scared to be seen as female because of what men will think, which is bull.

It's just one more weapon in a substantial arsenal. Use wisely.

Hear, hear.

How you dress is like a cover sheet on a report, people will make assumptions about you- based on whether you're wearing coveralls, or a Jackie Kennedy suit, or dreadlocks- or all of the above. Wiser people will be able to take the initial info they garner from your appearance and build on it or alter their perceptions beyond their first impression.

But it is an awesome weapon, if you know how to work it tastefully and within reason. Because it can backfire- you wouldn't, e.g., want to show aaall your assets at work.

Just because I'm hotter doesn't mean I'm not about to prove I'm smarter...My experience has been that a lot of men take that like a mental sucker punch. :devilish:





rara avis added to this post, 3 minutes and 14 seconds later...

But when should one use it? If I am at work, I do not want the guys to be thinking about my breasts, when I am talking about a contract. I need them to focus on the work, not me. I do not like to manipulate men with my body. Too many women tend to do that and it really bothers me.

You can emphasize your beauty with out actually propping the girls up on the conference table.

Really, the boys are thinking about them anyway... but yeah, in many situations you want to downplay certain aspects of your appearance.

[intj1999]

It also depends what kind of job you have and how old you are. As an INTJ, I am not very comfortable drawing attention to myself, unless that is my job.

[notthedroid]

But when should one use it? If I am at work, I do not want the guys to be thinking about my breasts, when I am talking about a contract. I need them to focus on the work, not me. I do not like to manipulate men with my body. Too many women tend to do that and it really bothers me.

When you want to feel awesome?

I don't dress up for male attention. I dress up because it's nice every once in a while to be a woman, know that I look good, and be happy with myself - all of myself, brains and bust and ovaries and my short legs. That sort of confidence comes across to people - it is the confidence that is the weapon, not the shape of the body or how much is exposed. It's you saying, "Hey, I'm happy with myself. Wanna push me around? Suck it."

Women wear chador to "protect" themselves from men and prevent men from having sexual thoughts. Check this out (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) - here in Saudi Arabia they want women to wear chador that covers one eye because showing both eyes is too sexy.

Whose problem is this? The women, for being too sexually apealling, or the men, for being unable to handle seeing a pair of female eyes? It's an example of a line of thought taken to extremes.

If the sight of my calf and the skin at my neck and the fact that I have noticeable breasts under my top causes some men to freak out so that I need to censure my dress to not look female ... I am thinking a) I am screwed no matter what and b) why is this my problem?

Of course, I do not advocate dressing like a slut for kicks and saying men have to deal with it, ha ha. There's nothing professional about showing extreme cleavage or midriff or a skirt so short you have to be careful how you pick up a pencil from the floor. But it is quite possible to look classy, be confident, be smart, and be unmistakably female.

[hidden]

But, can we be taken seriously, if we dress a certain way? I have found that when I dress in a conservative fashion, people listen and show respect. If I wear a skirt or anything that shows my figure, no one listens to me. It is ridiculous and sexist and true, unfortunately.

This is the exact reason why I refuse to wear dresses, skirts or anything that shows my figure or excess skin (legs, arms). I want to be taken seriously.

[intj1999]

When you want to feel awesome?

I don't dress up for male attention. I dress up because it's nice every once in a while to be a woman, know that I look good, and be happy with myself - all of myself, brains and bust and ovaries and my short legs. That sort of confidence comes across to people - it is the confidence that is the weapon, not the shape of the body or how much is exposed. It's you saying, "Hey, I'm happy with myself. Wanna push me around? Suck it."

Women wear chador to "protect" themselves from men and prevent men from having sexual thoughts. Check this out (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) - here in Saudi Arabia they want women to wear chador that covers one eye because showing both eyes is too sexy.

Whose problem is this? The women, for being too sexually appalling, or the men, for being unable to handle seeing a pair of female eyes? It's an example of a line of thought taken to extremes.

If the sight of my calf and the skin at my neck and the fact that I have noticeable breasts under my top causes some men to freak out so that I need to censure my dress to not look female ... I am thinking a) I am screwed no matter what and b) why is this my problem?

Of course, I do not advocate dressing like a slut for kicks and saying men have to deal with it, ha ha. There's nothing professional about showing extreme cleavage or midriff or a skirt so short you have to be careful how you pick up a pencil from the floor. But it is quite possible to look classy, be confident, be smart, and be unmistakably female.


Of course this is possible.
The fact that I actually have to think about it bothers me.
When I got breasts, I cried, as a child because I could no longer run as fast, without pain. I was a tomboy growing up, but I developed at an early age, so I've had to deal with this type of stuff for a long time.
I am confident. I can wear a potato sack and make it look good, but I just wish I did not have to think about it.

[alphawolf]

I am confident. I can wear a potato sack and make it look good, but I just wish I did not have to think about it.

Get a sex change operation.

Or just accept the fact that you are a woman.

A little modesty also probably wouldn't hurt ;-) You will attract a much higher calibre man...

[intj1999]

Get a sex change operation.

Or just accept the fact that you are a woman.

A little modesty also probably wouldn't hurt ;-) You will attract a much higher calibre man...

I am not sure what you are trying to say with that? Modesty? As in I should be less confident? Or modesty, as in wear stuff that is not revealing? Or as in being more humble?
No, I do not want to be a man, although I wish we could just wear men's clothing and shoes which are so much more comfortable than women's clothing.
You have no idea what types of men I attract. I know that you may think you were joking, but this thread really strikes a chord with me.
In an ideal world, we would wear whatever we would want to wear and everyone would show us respect, no matter what our gender.
That is not how things work in the real world.

[notthedroid]

I am confident. I can wear a potato sack and make it look good, but I just wish I did not have to think about it.

I hear you.

(I definitely can't wear a potato sack and have it look good.)

Up until I was 18 or so I wanted to get a double mastectomy. It is very difficult to deal with being an INTJ, thinking and behaving in a way that is seen as masculine and puts you out of step with your peers, and then stuffed in a body that betrays you and causes other people to judge you (thin? fat? pretty? ugly?) and seems to only generate unwanted attention and ruin friendships. I wanted to be androgynous for the longest time - I dressed and acted it - just to take the focus off my sex in the hopes that people would see me for myself.

It has taken a lot of time and effort to understand how being female is a part of me, and accepting it, and maybe even learning to like it.

[alphawolf]

Or as in being more humble?

I wasn't trying to joke with you. I'm just being blunt.

Yes, I meant humble. And stating that you could make a potato sack look good is very far from humble. A decent man wants a humble woman, even if she does look like a million bucks after taxes.



In an ideal world, we would wear whatever we would want to wear and everyone would show us respect, no matter what our gender.
That is not how things work in the real world.

If you dress like a sexy, stylish woman, then you will attract men... to elsewhere than your brains.

If I dress like a bum, then I will not attract women. They might even move to the other side of the street to avoid me.

If I put on my tailor made suit, banker's shirt, handmade silk tie, handmade italian leather shoes, etc..., then I do definitely attract women. You know what ZZ Top said "Every girl crazy bout a sharp dressed man".. Same goes for men, they like a sharp dressed woman.

[cyan2012]

I do not work in a very technical field and maybe if I did I would have a different answer, however, I have to say, no, most males verbally acknowledge me as pretty intelligent soon after speaking with me for the first time.

Then they remark on how different I am compared to most females and start listing things off that they want to know if I am interested in - history, science, Star Trek...like eager little chldren (and I don't mean that disparagingly about men being children) that hope they've found a new playmate (not like the ones that are in certain magazines).

And, similar to many posts by INTJ women so far on this thread, most of my friends are male.

On a slight tangent, after getting to know me better the thing that men seem to appreciate more than my intellect is the fact that I seem less emotional than other women. I'm often am told things like, "You are the only female I'm completely honest with because I know you can absorb what I'm saying and not get upset or judge me."

But back on track, I like that I am seen as intelligent, but I don't like the feeling that I have any obligation to do or say intelligent things all the time. Sometimes I feel like when people know you are smart they are sort of waiting around for you to do some sort of intellectual trick for their amusement...I prefer to stay in the background. I was the kind of student that knew the answers, but wouldn't speak out in class.

[rara avis]

To me, a major point of this forum is learning how best to do things my own damn way... So.

Dress for what you want. I like aesthetics, and I like being able to customize things to suit me. Putting effort into how I dress is right up my alley. Even in the days when I was all conflicted about my first bra, I liked picking out the rest of my clothes.

To each her own, a lid for every pot, etc...

I say don't dress up in stuff that doesn't suit you - if it makes you feel bad, then doesn't it misrepresent you? Dress like Ellen Degeneres if you want to be a girl in clothes equally practical to men's. She looks good, and better yet looks like herself. Of course, she must have stylists, which helps... but there are a lot of guys who are more comfortable with a "comfortable" woman...

And, NOT every girl's crazy bout a sharp dressed man. Some girls find them kinda creepy or unmanly. (I'm not one of them, but hey...) Same goes for humility- some people like a partner who can do the trophy thing and stir up envy in others.

Looking good doesn't preclude comfy shoes. Especially if you can rock the potato sack. Clean and healthy, I'd say, are the only steady across-the-board traits just about everyone wants. And even then...

I'm NOT an expert in matchmaking, but it doesn't seem like a good start, hiding major points of who you are.

[Nikita]

I don't know what I am, but men almost always like my intellect (and the sarcasm with which I often wield it). It's kinda weird that women tend to get stiff around me, but men generally love to talk to me. It's only the extreme money-hungry yuppy men that seem to get annoyed. They don't like to be contradicted.

[Colette]

Yes, I meant humble. And stating that you could make a potato sack look good is very far from humble. A decent man wants a humble woman, even if she does look like a million bucks after taxes

Humble? Why's that? So he can feel superior to her, even if he isn't? This is what I really dislike about men; that they don't seem to feel secure enough to cope with a woman who is intelligent and capable, and who knows it. In order to attract and keep a guy, these women have to 'humble themselves' and massage his ego at frequent intervals. Women who aren't prepared to do this end up on their own. It's a double standard, and a pretty pathetic one, imo.

[notthedroid]

Yes, I meant humble. And stating that you could make a potato sack look good is very far from humble. A decent man wants a humble woman, even if she does look like a million bucks after taxes.

I am not sure humble is a word you use to describe an INTJ.

Edited:

Ha ha, I remember a funny story. When I was three years old my parents had a storage shed put up in the backyard. I was introduced to the contractor and I said, "Hi, I'm [notthedroid] and I'm smart."

The contractor said, "Yes, and humble, too."

Then I had to ask my parents to explain what humble meant.

[Van Diesel]

Women have intellect? Hahajk.

[Deliberator]

Humble? Why's that? So he can feel superior to her, even if he isn't? This is what I really dislike about men; that they don't seem to feel secure enough to cope with a woman who is intelligent and capable, and who knows it. In order to attract and keep a guy, these women have to 'humble themselves' and massage his ego at frequent intervals. Women who aren't prepared to do this end up on their own. It's a double standard, and a pretty pathetic one, imo.

People have such a disappointing association with the word "humble", somehow thinking it's synonymous with "self-depreciating". I'm pretty sure alphawolf was talking about humble in the sense that you shouldn't aimlessly publicize your superiorities (aka brag).

Wouldn't you consider it unattractive for a man to talk about how he can make anything he wears look great?

[Colette]

People have such a disappointing association with the word "humble", somehow thinking it's synonymous with "self-depreciating". I'm pretty sure alphawolf was talking about humble in the sense that you shouldn't aimlessly publicize your superiorities (aka brag).

Wouldn't you consider it unattractive for a man to talk about how he can make anything he wears look great?

Yes, but still it was a slightly unfortunate choice of words (although I appreciate that the intent wasn't bad). I'd use the word 'modest' to describe someone who doesn't brag about their appearance or achievements. Humility, to me, implies a sense of inferiority in relation to another..

[Nikita]

Yes, but still it was a slightly unfortunate choice of words (although I appreciate that the intent wasn't bad). I'd use the word 'modest' to describe someone who doesn't brag about their appearance or achievements. Humility, to me, implies a sense of inferiority in relation to another..

"Humble" is certainly a word that many would use in describing Mother Teresa. I don't think most would associate that with her being inferior to anyone.

[Colette]

"Humble" is certainly a word that many would use in describing Mother Teresa. I don't think most would associate that with her being inferior to anyone.

Perhaps not. It's all personal preference I suppose, but I don't expect to have to behave with 'humility' around a romantic partner, and I'm not especially attracted to men who come across as humble. I prefer men who are confident, but in a quiet, realistic sense, not in a cocky "in your face" sense. The latter are simply pathetic and unappealing, imo.

[Nikita]

Perhaps not. It's all personal preference I suppose, but I don't expect to have to behave with 'humility' around a romantic partner, and I'm not especially attracted to men who come across as humble. I prefer men who are confident, but in a quiet, realistic sense, not in a cocky "in your face" sense. The latter are simply pathetic and unappealing, imo.

I can understand that. I tend to be fatally attracted to "players."

[rara avis]

...A decent man wants a humble woman...
I think that this statement is both sweeping and narrow. It says that there's something wrong with a man who's attracted to an arrogant, proud, or self-assured woman. And it implies that a woman who doesn't express noticeable deference or meekness in some way doesn't deserve a "decent" guy.


If you dress like a sexy, stylish woman, then you will attract men... to elsewhere than your brains.

Regardless of how hot I manage to look, my brains are just not intimidated by the competition. (Interpret that how you will, I guess.) And men who can't appreciate both in women are just rabble.





rara avis added to this post, 0 minutes and 56 seconds later...

I can understand that. I tend to be fatally attracted to "players."

Fine and blurry line sometimes between confident and asshole.

[Nikita]

Fine and blurry line sometimes between confident and asshole.

Definitely. I have a knack for picking ones who respect me, though. At least that's something! ha One told me I was a "rubik's cube," another said, "I don't know whether to hug you or to shake you until you break." hmm ESTPs classic players?

[rara avis]

I dated a player for quite a while in my early twenties. He was the one who started calling me an odd bird- kind of charming the first fifty times that he didn't understand what I was doing or saying, but after a while, meh... and when I said rara avis once, (I don't speak Latin, but come on) he didn't know what I was talking about... and that was when I knew I'd had enough with him.

Actually, speaking of assholes, he used to warn me all the time that he was one, and got really offended once when I told him to quit giving himself permission like that.

Bad match.

[alphawolf]

Humble? Why's that? So he can feel superior to her, even if he isn't? This is what I really dislike about men; that they don't seem to feel secure enough to cope with a woman who is intelligent and capable, and who knows it. In order to attract and keep a guy, these women have to 'humble themselves' and massage his ego at frequent intervals. Women who aren't prepared to do this end up on their own. It's a double standard, and a pretty pathetic one, imo.

Humility regarding your outward appearance is not about superiority. Intelligence, capability, and confidence are very sexy. Stating that you look better than most is not sexy at all, it's incredibly shallow. Trust me, men are not blind.

As for ego massaging, everybody wants to feel desired for their mind - including women. If you don't want ME, then what in the hell are we doing together? Maybe you just like my money... Maybe I just like your ass.

Find the right man, and he will make you feel special in every way.

[Colette]

Find the right man, and he will make you feel special in every way.

Yeah, so they say :)

Many men I've been involved with want (and expect) ego massage. I'm prepared to show affection and appreciation, but I won't rave about his talents, looks etc for the sake of appeasing his ego. Just not into that..

[PRBori]

I am quite fascinated by this. I have only known one INTJ female in my life (particle physicist) and she was always annoyed by her male colleagues treating her as second rate having to prove herself just because she had a pair of ovaries and breasts. I'm wondering if others are like this too. Ironically she's the only female I do respect in that way.

My sample size being one, doesn't allow me to extrapolate.

Hmm... I work in the IT field which is mainly men and I have not encounter this yet... or maybe I'm ignoring it since I really don't care what others say all the time...with the exception of maybe 2% related to my career goals.

The only things that have happened is that I tend to do more than I'm required and get quite piss off when I'm not provided the tools I need in order to do the job I was asked to do. I tend to get slap in the face when I try to do my job correctly quite often in my new job because of "work politics" which I have never had issues with before.

Now does that mean I'm not respected intellectually? I don't think so, because they always ask for my opinion on the projects and value most of it... My boss says that my mind is programmed like a programmer which tends to analyzed everything from every angle and wants things perfect. He told me I need to un program myself. Stop showing the stick and put on some honey on it... which honestly drives me nuts because I like to do my job correctly at all times and be an over achiever.

I don't know, I haven't notice disrespect to my intellect at least with people at my level... not sure how others see me since my circle of people are mainly co-workers or people I meet in conferences related to my field...

The only people outside my circle have mention that I'm extremely independent and that I think and live like a men... and that has piss me off because I'm not a men... but I guess since I don't need a men to survive that's intimidating to them...

anyway..

[Nikita]

For some men, intellectual women are valued because we tend to be honest. Men appreciate honesty and straight forward communication. They also get a kick out of sarcasm, more often than not, and who better to wield the tongue of fire than an independent female?

[Monte314]

How much difference between intellectual level justifies one person "not respecting" the intellect of the other?

[phantasma]

I get really annoyed when men devalue my intellect. This is only compounded in my high school environment where I'm mostly surrounded by shallow insecure teenage boys. They only value my intellect when I help them with their class work, but otherwise, I'm viewed as a freak of nature. They seem to see a lower IQ as a female characteristic, and since I don't have that characteristic, I'm almost not female to them. That, and their superiority complexes get in the way so if they do realize that I'm smart, they are overly competitive, desperate to prove me wrong, and that is very tiring after a while.

[alphawolf]

Yeah, so they say :)


Don't listen to what men / women say with regards to romance, attraction, trust, etc. Pay attention to what they do, and how they make you feel when you are with them.

I never, ever tell a woman that she's beautiful or sexy or "hot". It's actually quite a detrimental (IMO creepy) thing to do, because she's already heard it from every guy (jerk) she's met and I don't want to do anything to be put into that category by association. If I really think that she is any of those things, then I will unmistakably make her feel that way through non-verbal communication. And that, she can believe because she trusts her own feelings. If she needs to hear any of these things verbally, then she's already way too insecure for me.





alphawolf added to this post, 7 minutes and 39 seconds later...

Yes, but still it was a slightly unfortunate choice of words (although I appreciate that the intent wasn't bad). I'd use the word 'modest' to describe someone who doesn't brag about their appearance or achievements. Humility, to me, implies a sense of inferiority in relation to another..

No, the intent wasn't bad. I just call it like I see it.

PC... I would have thought that you all were above this, that the lowest common denominator would have been far higher with this group.

How long until "vertically challenged" becomes a bad word, and people prefer to be called "short" again?

[Grace]

I am not usually in places where underestimation of my intellect is an issue. Perhaps it is more prevalent in technical fields. I have noticed that it happens less now, since I have gained some self-confidence, than it used to. It has never taken more than a brief conversation to re-set a man's estimate of me.

Alphawolf, If a woman actually IS more attractive than most others, why would you find it attractive in her to pretend she doesn't know it? It has been pretty hard for me to miss when I am walking down the mall, and men turn and stare and walk backwards into fixtures. I know I am attractive. What I find unattractive is the emphasis that certain people, male and female, place on fleeting physical features. I know I am attractive, but it isn't where I garner my self-worth. This body is simply the outer wrapping of my true self. I enjoy being seen as attractive outwardly and it has probably made my life easier in ways I don't realize, but a traumatizing injury could instantly change my outer aspect. Aging will change it most definitely (that process has begun).
Take heart, ladies. Many men do eventually grow a little sense as they get older.

[alphawolf]

Alphawolf, If a woman actually IS more attractive than most others, why would you find it attractive in her to pretend she doesn't know it?

Because humility is inner beauty. Looks won't last. I don't want to wake up with a woman who has an ugly mind.

[Antares]

For some men, intellectual women are valued because we tend to be honest. Men appreciate honesty and straight forward communication. They also get a kick out of sarcasm, more often than not, and who better to wield the tongue of fire than an independent female?

I wonder why I'm still single.

[Sinequanon]

You know, there are a lot of allegations being thrown around in this thread. Frankly, it may be time to break out visual evidence.

I mean, purely in the interests of scie--




...




I just received word that I've been asked to leave the thread. My apologies. ;)

[Deliberator]

If a woman actually IS more attractive than most others, why would you find it attractive in her to pretend she doesn't know it?

I don't think anyone's expecting woman to say that she's not pretty when she is; it's expecting her to not talk about it when it's not called for (it speaks for itself anyway).

If looks aren't the most important feature about you, why are you about to readily communicate it to people? There's no purpose on elaborating, other than vanity.

[bethanygm]

I used to dumb myself down A LOT to fit in. Of course, I still never fit in. But, at least I could have some boring conversations with people. I'm with my ENFP and it is cool, now.. I am myself with him.
I am working to get rid of some of the mannerisms I adopted in order to be "less threatening" to both men and women. If I am ever to be taken seriously I need to watch how I act and make sure it is consistent with who I actually am, now. Hopefully I will get it down in the next few years...
I act ditzy sometimes... I am retarded for doing that, but I felt much more accepted than when I used to confuse people by using "big words" and acting like myself...girls thought I was a "bitch" and guys were apparently uninterested -or they were threatened.
I don't have to care now that I am married and know that there are actually other people like me.. that I am not actually "messed up".

[Colette]

No, the intent wasn't bad. I just call it like I see it.

PC... I would have thought that you all were above this, that the lowest common denominator would have been far higher with this group.

How long until "vertically challenged" becomes a bad word, and people prefer to be called "short" again?

That's a ridiculous analogy. There is in fact a subtle (but important) linguistic difference between 'humility' and 'modesty'. Look up both terms if you don't believe me. A modest person is inwardly confident, but doesn't self-deprecate, or kow-tow to another.

A 'humble' person on the other hand is quite ready to allow others to assert their superiority over that person, and to either implicitly or explicitly assist them in doing so. It is that characteristic that I find unappealing in men, and am not prepared to cultivate in myself in order to obtain the affections of a man.

[Sinequanon]

That's a ridiculous analogy. There is in fact a subtle (but important) linguistic difference between 'humility' and 'modesty'. Look up both terms if you don't believe me. A modest person is inwardly confident, but doesn't self-deprecate, or kow-tow to another.

A 'humble' person on the other hand is quite ready to allow others to assert their superiority over that person, and to either implicitly or explicitly assist them in doing so. It is that characteristic that I find unappealing in men, and am not prepared to cultivate in myself in order to obtain the affections of a man.
I agree. Modesty implies an underlying confidence. A person could be outwardly confident about the thing, but they are deferring that confidence out of respect for the people involved in the situation. An example would be if a person has a doctorate degree in a subject at a dinner party, and is declining to note it in an argument with someone who has a bachelor's degree in that subject. Though they know they have studied the subject more thoroughly, they are being modest in not dismissing the other person's argument just by virtue of that knowledge.

Humility is, on the other hand, deference given without respect to the situation. A humble person in the above situation wouldn't even get into the argument, or wouldn't challenge the other person even though they have the weight of experience behind their words. The attitude of deference in general is somewhat anathema to an INTJ who would have pride behind their accomplishments without necessarily having the need to lord those accomplishments over everyone (which would be immodest).

[alphawolf]

I agree. Modesty implies an underlying confidence. A person could be outwardly confident about the thing, but they are deferring that confidence out of respect for the people involved in the situation. An example would be if a person has a doctorate degree in a subject at a dinner party, and is declining to note it in an argument with someone who has a bachelor's degree in that subject. Though they know they have studied the subject more thoroughly, they are being modest in not dismissing the other person's argument just by virtue of that knowledge.

Humility is, on the other hand, deference given without respect to the situation. A humble person in the above situation wouldn't even get into the argument, or wouldn't challenge the other person even though they have the weight of experience behind their words. The attitude of deference in general is somewhat anathema to an INTJ who would have pride behind their accomplishments without necessarily having the need to lord those accomplishments over everyone (which would be immodest).

Well, you are right on with that explanation, and I state that your explanation of modesty is what I am trying to push here.

However, that may be completely beside the point. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to me a radical feminist is the ugliest sort of woman that I can imagine. And a separatist feminist, well, she can just stick to other women because no man will ever be good enough...

I don't believe that women "need to be put in their place", nor do I believe that men "need to be put in their place". Human biology is what it is. Men are naturally sexually and physically dominant, and naturally the protectors and providers for women. There is no intellectualizing your way out of that. If civil war breaks out in your neighborhood tomorrow, you'll be wishing you had a strong man by your side and the feminist attitudes will fly out the window faster than a cigarette butt while driving down the highway. Either accept it and be happy with a healthy, biological male-female relationship, or buy a vibrator and be bitter and alone for the rest of your life.

I rest my case.





alphawolf added to this post, 1 minutes and 48 seconds later...

I don't think anyone's expecting woman to say that she's not pretty when she is; it's expecting her to not talk about it when it's not called for (it speaks for itself anyway).

If looks aren't the most important feature about you, why are you about to readily communicate it to people? There's no purpose on elaborating, other than vanity.

I concur.

[AliTree]

I normally make people feel stupid pretty quick upon meeting them. i don't mean to; i guess i just come off that way. i'm always to-the-point, extremely blunt, sarcastic and dry, opinionated, and i don't get offended easily at all so i offend people w/ my not so PC comments a lot.

so if i don't do any of that to offend them when meeting them pretty early on, then yeah that pisses me off. i normally will just make them seem incredibly stupid. it seems to be the quickest, easiest, and more sure fire way to make someone see your intelligence quickly.

i also am read incredibly wrong by my body language, makeup, and fashion. being female just adds on to that.

[Parallel]

Well, what kind of a woman wouldn't be annoyed with a man not respecting their intellect, INTJ or not?

[Colette]

Human biology is what it is. Men are naturally sexually and physically dominant, and naturally the protectors and providers for women. There is no intellectualizing your way out of that. If civil war breaks out in your neighborhood tomorrow, you'll be wishing you had a strong man by your side and the feminist attitudes will fly out the window faster than a cigarette butt while driving down the highway.

During what period of human evolution are we referring to here?

Either accept it and be happy with a healthy, biological male-female relationship, or buy a vibrator and be bitter and alone for the rest of your life.

In comparison with acceptance of your views, that option is starting to look vaguely appealing right about now.

I rest my case.

That would be awesome, but I suspect it won't happen, unfortunately..

[alphawolf]

That would be awesome, but I suspect it won't happen, unfortunately..

It already happened.

You may ask me for help some day; you can come and get it. I won't remind you of your previous negative comments - I will take the time to help you and you won't owe me a thing.

Peace.

[rain]

absolutely.

let's see, how about we rephrase your question so that it says:

you were only hired because you're a cute chick with a degree from an ivy league university. you're routinely underestimated because of your cuteness factor, but when you exert your competence, then you're yelled at, criticised, and treated as if you were more of a personal assistant than a team player due to the fact that you're cute, accomplished, well connected and highly competent.

what do you do, as an INTJ female when working with a sexist asshole?

hmmmmmm.......

[intj1999]

Well, you are right on with that explanation, and I state that your explanation of modesty is what I am trying to push here.

However, that may be completely beside the point. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to me a radical feminist is the ugliest sort of woman that I can imagine. And a separatist feminist, well, she can just stick to other women because no man will ever be good enough...

I don't believe that women "need to be put in their place", nor do I believe that men "need to be put in their place". Human biology is what it is. Men are naturally sexually and physically dominant, and naturally the protectors and providers for women. There is no intellectualizing your way out of that. If civil war breaks out in your neighborhood tomorrow, you'll be wishing you had a strong man by your side and the feminist attitudes will fly out the window faster than a cigarette butt while driving down the highway. Either accept it and be happy with a healthy, biological male-female relationship, or buy a vibrator and be bitter and alone for the rest of your life.

I rest my case.





alphawolf added to this post, 1 minutes and 48 seconds later...



I concur.

To be fair to alphawolf, he did use the word modesty in his initial comment about me. I just asked him to elaborate on his meaning of the word in the context of the post.
Anyway, when I wrote the post about the potato sack, I was trying to make a point about what my experience has been. Since this is an online forum where I have chosen not to post a picture of myself, or put up my resume, you have no way of knowing who I am or what I have accomplished, how I look, etc.
That being said, I do dress in a modest way and I tend not to draw attention to myself or boast about my degrees, etc....in the real world. That is why I chose to come to an INTJ forum in the first place, where I thought that others would understand what it feels like to be introverted.
As a woman, with some intelligence, I thought that answering to this thread might be of some value.
I am not sure what more needs to be said about the way intelligent women are treated by others. If we demonstrate our knowledge, some people will appreciate it, while others will be intimidated by it. Beauty fades and the mind can eventually go with age. The point is to try to make the most of what you have, while you still can.
Life is not easy for women who are physically attractive and intelligent. If they look for partners that are their equal, they may not be able to find them.

[smashy]

I am quite fascinated by this. I have only known one INTJ female in my life (particle physicist) and she was always annoyed by her male colleagues treating her as second rate having to prove herself just because she had a pair of ovaries and breasts. I'm wondering if others are like this too. Ironically she's the only female I do respect in that way.

My sample size being one, doesn't allow me to extrapolate.

Do you know the expression "the path to a woman's bed is winning her heart"? So, mine is winning my mind. So there you have your answer. Men that don't respect my intellect also don't deserve any respect from me whatsoever.

[Synamon]

absolutely.

let's see, how about we rephrase your question so that it says:

you were only hired because you're a cute chick with a degree from an ivy league university. you're routinely underestimated because of your cuteness factor, but when you exert your competence, then you're yelled at, criticised, and treated as if you were more of a personal assistant than a team player due to the fact that you're cute, accomplished, well connected and highly competent.

what do you do, as an INTJ female when working with a sexist asshole?

hmmmmmm.......
I know this was rhetorical but I'm going to answer anyway.

You just have to have faith that their irrational sexism will bite them on the ass someday. Their insecure behavior reflects just how much you threaten them so they lash out. To keep your own sanity you have to ignore them as best you can. And pity the women in their lives.

[Monte314]

I head a team of scientists, and I can't imagine any of us making less of an idea because it was created by a woman; or treating someone with disrespect because of their gender; or including in the evaluation of an idea any personal characteristics of its author.

I don't know where you people work, but I just don't see this kind of thing happening in the world I inhabit. It serves no one's best interests. I want our team to succeed, and I don't care about the genotype of those that make that happen... and nobody that works for me better, either.

[Kuu]

Well you can't blame us men, most women we meet in our lifetimes will be idiots. Gifted women (IQ's over 130) are something like less than 2% of the population. So we'll meet one maybe ever few years? If I was gambling and 98%+ of the time the roulette wheel always ended up on black I think I'd be justified to assume the next roll will be black until proven otherwise.

Is this true, honestly? As I have an IQ over 130, and can name at least five other girls with IQs higher than mine.

As far as not being respected for my intellect? Well I'm still in school, but at the moment it's not an issue.

[Josephine1012]

Is this true, honestly? As I have an IQ over 130, and can name at least five other girls with IQs higher than mine.

As far as not being respected for my intellect? Well I'm still in school, but at the moment it's not an issue.

It is unfortunately true for both genders....

Birds of a feather tend to flock together :)

[Lucid]

Is this true, honestly? As I have an IQ over 130, and can name at least five other girls with IQs higher than mine.

As far as not being respected for my intellect? Well I'm still in school, but at the moment it's not an issue.

It's not true that there are significantly fewer women with IQs over 130 than men. See my earlier post (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).