How to move without moving?

[Rohsiph]

I post here a lot in threads to do with women, dating, relationships, etc., usually offering a pretty cynical perspective that distrusts hope and social conditioning.

This makes me a bit reluctant to start this thread, but I know there are more than a few bright members here that I feel might be able to share some wisdom I'm failing to grasp.

I'll try to keep the 'story' short and to the point:

I met S in a class a year ago, she caught my interest but I never acted on it. A few months after that class, I was desperate to find an artist to help with illustrating a little project. All of my drawing/painting friends were busy at the moment, but I remembered S and that she was an art major and so I sent her a message and, surprisingly, she hopped on board and her part of the project turned out nicely.

I've been keeping channels open with her since we both returned to college since summer, exchanging messages a few times a week and spending some hours together when we can find time outside our very different schedules. She joined me to see a concert the other night and I was really tempted to awkwardly ask something like "How would you feel about trying to be more than friends?"

It's been half a decade since the last time I found myself interested in a woman where we both get along really well, legitimately enjoy each others' company, and she's single.

There's no magical way of divining exactly where the both of us stand in our relation except to in some way pose a question and hope that we both answer honestly . . . and I'm at a point where I've noticed a few things that make me pretty sure feelings are mutual, but my INTJ Achilles heel is acting up and I notice and keep trying to analyze how she's never really contacted me first. I trust that she and I are mature enough that we could stay friends if things didn't work out, but I'm having trouble convincing myself that now would be a good time to try moving things forward.

I wish she'd make a first move and save me all the worry, but don't realistically expect that to happen any time soon . . . so I wonder what the INTJ Forum community might think. Take the risk? Stay friends until she starts initiating things? Throw a brick through her window? ;)

I wouldn't mind if the topic eventually moves somewhere past simple advice, as I'm also interested hearing about what members might share, somewhat in corollary with the "Can a guy and girl just be friends?" topic, about how friendships can (or perhaps can't) evolve into more involved relationships--hence the title.

[radames]

This may be a different approach, but ask yourself why she jumped on board so quickly, then you will have begun to understand what attracted her to you.

[Tyrant Soup]

If you're unsure of her feelings, why not try to advance the relationship in steps? If she does not move forward, then you will have your answer.

Waiting for her to initiate is not a good idea because she might be doing the same with you.

[Rohsiph]

This may be a different approach, but ask yourself why she jumped on board so quickly, then you will have begun to understand what attracted her to you.

I like this idea at first glance :) I'll try thinking through that.

If you're unsure of her feelings, why not try to advance the relationship in steps? If she does not move forward, then you will have your answer.

Waiting for her to initiate is not a good idea because she might be doing the same with you.

Well, this also seems a good idea--but what "steps" are there to move through? Once the boundaries are defined, I should be good to go, but getting things off the ground always seems like the hardest thing in the world for me.

[ElstonGunn]

Is the problem that you don't know what to do, or is it that you don't want to do it? Once the cat gets out of the bag, how it happened doesn't matter too much.

[Rohsiph]

Consciously I believe the problem is that I don't know what to do. There's a tangent in mind that there are ways I might follow I don't want to do, but I found myself convinced I want to do something shortly before posting the topic.

I agree, once the cat's out of the beg the 'how' won't matter . . . there'll be reciprocation, or there won't be, or there'll be a short period of confusion that would blow over and things would sort back to the way they were before.

I'm looking for perspective on how I might move forward, and to what extent I should move at all.

[ElstonGunn]

So you're mostly looking for ideas about things you can actually do, not a bunch of people telling you that you're great, or that you should just do something, or other types of encouragement?

[Rohsiph]

If some reasoning could be attached to "that you should just do something," I'd appreciate it . . .

but yeah, mostly for ideas, reasons, solutions--advice that could be followed and considered. ;)

[wotrabbit]

She could be like me. I now no longer make the move because I've had a couple of bad experiences in the past when I've tried to make the move on the guy. Now when I like a guy, I make myself available to hang out with him and make sure he knows that I put things aside to make time for him. I don't see the point of playing hard to get....I make it as easy as possible for him to initiate if he is indeed interested. So it's possible she could be expecting you to. You say you've noticed signs it might be mutual, you guys are both single, enjoy each other's company. I think that's enough to go on, personally, given that you are confident there's some sort of mental/emotional/physical connection that is not completely one-sided.

As to how to move forward....well I don't know. I can only speak for myself. If I like a guy, I don't care how he moves forward really, just as long as he does it. If he's too chicken shit to even try, that's a turn-off and I find that hard to respect. If he tries but I don't like him in that way, I have lost zero respect for him. If he tries and I do like him, then I honestly I'll probably be too thrilled to care how awkward or dorky or nervous he comes off doing it as long as he let's me know :D

edited to add: the chicken shit comment didn't come out how I intended it to. If someone is terribly passive and something about their character makes them extremely difficult or unable to initiate relationships, I don't mean to say I'd rule them out. In that case I'd take into account their personality and work with them, i.e., meet them halfway, initiate myself, etc. It's when they are fully capable of it but don't that is a turn-off.

[Rohsiph]

Wotrabbit:

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I think it's really just the standard INTJ analysis method that still has me reluctant, because the positive signs I think I'm seeing, combined with a developing trust she's a mature enough woman that she wouldn't flake out if I'm wrong, I want to say is more than enough to go on.

So I sent her another message like the last few offering a couple options for her to join me if she wants . . . of all the kinds of activities I've so far suggested, she seems reluctant to do anything that would stay entirely at either of our homes, but if it starts somewhere else she's surprised me with how positive she's responded.

[zippikay]

if asking frontally may be too inconvenient, why not try with gestures? or what kind of conversations that you already had? can both of you feel comfortable to talk about much deeper issue? if yes, why don't you do that? relationship can go deeper without the proverbial declaration of "more than friend", right?

[Rohsiph]

Zippikay: you have a point :)

Yours is a solution that I would probably feel very comfortable trying out, except it's one that leaves me with just little more to stand on until something physical happens. That is, the declaration necessarily extends the boundaries such that both of us can be equally aware of where we stand in relation to our feelings towards one another. To dance around deeper issues, from my impression you suggest talking to her about relationships and letting on how I feel about her through the ideas I suggest (or something like this), allows her to play coy in a way where I could end up showing most of my cards without getting even a small glimpse of hers--until one of us makes a leap that's certainly beyond any common boundary of "just friends."

Man, ya gotta love how the INTJ mind makes all of this so f'ing complicated ;)

[seoa]

if you want to push the boundaries a bit further before making an outright statement, you could try something like:
find a reason to bring up relationships.... reference some current soap-opera, or a friend's life... or maybe reference the posts here on dating websites... get her talking on relationships, and get her answers to something that seems directly relevant, like "is she currently looking for a bf?" (which is why the dating websites topic might be more helpful - or maybe the "can men & women be friends?" topic...)

if she's in a place where she is sure she just wants friendship /doesn't want you, then this gives her a chance to shut you down completely... although you really ought to reciprocate by sharing (maybe first, to give her the correct context) that you're definitely looking, although you do prefer the in-person to dating websites...

if she doesn't shut you down completely, then say something... it doesn't have to be a big deal or very dramatic... maybe "so, this time we're spending together tonight - is it a date, or just-as-friends...?"

basically, you're not going to get great advice from people who haven't seen you together... and even then, it'll be coloured by their perspective on relationships... i have a couple of friends who spent hours together each week for over a year before either of them decided they wanted to be more than friends... now (if you believe them!) i just find this bizarre to the extreme... i cannot imagine being in a friendship with a guy for more than a couple of weeks, if that, before analysing where it might be going... but then that's just my personality type - i analyse all relationships /friendships i'm in on a regular basis, coz i like to know where they fit in my world map...

what i'm saying is, this all depends completely on her type... if she's good with people /pretty intuitive, then you can try subtle things like the conversational direction above... if she's cute, but kinda clueless about people-interactions, then hitting her over the head with a brick (i.e. asking her out with words) is pretty much your only option...

as i always say, do the risk assessment: best-case, likely-case, worst-case... if you want the best, and can live with the worst, then what do you have to lose...?

* note: if she's not someone who also haunts forums, feel free to mention the topics here as "conversations" rather than forum posts... still true, sounds less geeky... :laugh:

[Rohsiph]

Interesting approach, seoa. It gets to the point without starting fires--no one has to get burned. I like it.

I'm not the best at typing folks, but if forced to write down what I think she is then right now I'd say ISFP. Borderline E/I and N/S, but I'm pretty sure about F over T and P over J.

[Rohsiph]

Bringing this back because I've hit another point of confusion:

since starting the thread, this girl and I have screwed up plans twice (once her fault, once my fault), but ended up working things out such that we were able to spend some time together last night.

Suffice to say, I haven't managed to bluntly raise the idea of whether we're dating or not.

I'm still hopeful and confident that the words we're continuing to share are positive and open the possibility of moving into a deeper relationship. However, she's keeping some physical distance from me, and it's my natural method to keep myself at least an arms-length away from anyone . . . after last night, I'm aware the body language doesn't seem to be fitting with what we say. Or, at least, we're both guarded . . . I tried somewhat making myself look 'open' if she wanted to move closer to me, but couldn't notice her making any such openings for me.

It's also been bothering me that I was able to overhear part of a conversation she had on her cell with her sister: first she ignored her sister's call, but decided to take it when her phone rang again. The piece that worries me is her side of ending the conversation: as far as I know, her sister asked her something along the lines of "Who are you with," and what I heard was "With a friend . . . (my name) . . . no, not that (someone else with my name) . . . you don't know him . . . no it's not like that . . . no, you know what I'm hanging up."

My hopeful reading is that she was simply guarding her language because she knew I could hear her and she's as shy as I am about bridging the gap from friendship to relationship. But then I can't help but notice the other reading: that I've fallen into the 'friend zone' indefinitely, and she's made up her mind that she'll reject any future advances.

She left telling me she'd fill me in on something she's doing Sunday, tentatively inviting me--this'll be the first time she's drawn me into her plans if she follows through. I think that's promising.

But, I'm lost . . . as another friend said, the feelings and ambiguities surrounding everything is like "having the rug pulled out from under me."

[John F Kennedy]

I was once in a similar predicament. I put off doing anything for a long time and became more and more nervous about it. When I finally let her know, it was a great release. She said she wasn't really interested, and my attraction to her disappeared immediately - puff! Then we talked for a while, and she said that perhaps we could "move in steps", but because of her initial reaction I wasn't interested anymore.

[zippikay]

hmm, how much do you know already about this S? did she had any break ups prior to meeting with you?
assuming that what you heard over the phone is valid and the truth, this is an interesting fact, since (correct me if I'm wrong):
1. she get in touch with you right away after a while
2. yet she seemed reluctant and always keep her guard up
3. she seemed to like your companionship
4. she has someone with similar name as yours and her sister knows about it
so do you know anything about this person who has the same name as yours? how does her reaction, her tone, her facial expression during the phone conversation?

[Solaris]

I dated a male ISFP. I had to ask him out, and bluntly. He was too shy to do it himself. Once that was over, the rest was a bit easier. But he absolutely did not pick up on clues. Friends were so annoyed they threatened to tell him for me if I didn't because they just couldn't stand it anymore.

[Rohsiph]

Then we talked for a while, and she said that perhaps we could "move in steps", but because of her initial reaction I wasn't interested anymore.
This is among my biggest worries.
did she had any break ups prior to meeting with you?I was aware of her Facebook profile when I met her in a class a little more than a year ago, I wrote her off as an impossible pursuit because she was listed as 'dating' . . . but not anymore since late Spring.
1. she get in touch with you right away after a while
Not exactly right away, but enough signs I think are positive that I think your idea is still correct: she didn't back out after we had to change plans, then she mentions after we switched things that she's ditching other friends to spend time with me.
2. yet she seemed reluctant and always keep her guard up
3. she seemed to like your companionship
This is why I'm pretty confused after the other night.
4. she has someone with similar name as yours and her sister knows about it
so do you know anything about this person who has the same name as yours? how does her reaction, her tone, her facial expression during the phone conversation?
She had walked off a bit to a different room, and I tried respecting her privacy--thus, I didn't see her expressions . . . but of course I could hear her voice. It's hard for me to describe, I guess a good word would be 'casual,' maybe a little sarcastic.
As far as this other guy, I know of him only because her roommate mistook him for me a few weeks ago, sending me a message thinking I was him.

I dated a male ISFP. I had to ask him out, and bluntly. He was too shy to do it himself. Once that was over, the rest was a bit easier. But he absolutely did not pick up on clues. Friends were so annoyed they threatened to tell him for me if I didn't because they just couldn't stand it anymore.

I'm not sure this is it, but I think my situation might be like this . . . saying she's ISFP is a tentative guess. Since my last assessment, I'm more sure she's I, less sure she's S, and am now wondering if she's closer to the divide with T/F too.

[zippikay]

Rohsiph, i assume that you know that what we are doing here is basically try to analyze this S, and she may not appreciate what you are doing (which is trying to find out her motive)...
how much do you really interested about S? after all this time, how deep is your interaction? how much has she disclosed about herself to you?
how long have you been with S? how often do you interact? how do you assess the quality and quantity of your relationship?
you should have at least some figure or popular standard that after this long you should go to a certain level, but you may not yet reach that level given the time, thus your confusion...
please do understand that i only presume from your information, and any missing puzzle may lead to totally different conclusion

[Rohsiph]

Rohsiph, i assume that you know that what we are doing here is basically try to analyze this S, and she may not appreciate what you are doing (which is trying to find out her motive)... It's a treacherous bridge.
how much do you really interested about S? after all this time, how deep is your interaction? how much has she disclosed about herself to you?
I picked her out as one of the women that, if the opportunity arose, I'd try learning more about her when we were in the same class a year ago. The opportunity never really arose, although we interacted a little between then and Spring. In the Spring I asked her, on a whim, if she would collaborate on a creative project. She surprised me by saying yes, and our interaction during that time, from my end, was pretty business-like.

But I started warming up to her after we returned to school this Fall. Over the last month, she's taken over the role of a voice in my head that's reserved for the woman I'd most like to be with--a role that was previously occupied by a woman I'd been drifting away from, yet still kept her place in my mind for more than three years.

It's hard for me to say how much she's disclosed about herself--naturally, because I can't say how much I've yet to learn. But, I think we're learning about each other pretty quickly . . . moreso than I'm used to, in any case.
how long have you been with S? how often do you interact? how do you assess the quality and quantity of your relationship?
This information is in my previous posts, more or less . . . things have been ambiguous, from my perspective, for about a month. We try to meet once a week, but have been having some difficulties with ridiculous schedules; if we don't meet in person, we're still communicating in some way averaging every other day.

Quality and quantity? Positive and 3. Ahem. Quantity--how does one measure interpersonal quantity? I apologize, I'm unfamiliar assessing this.
you should have at least some figure or popular standard that after this long you should go to a certain level, but you may not yet reach that level given the time, thus your confusion...
Well, maybe not . . . it shouldn't sound bizarre here, but I'm 23 and have never dated before. In fact, I've occasionally railed against the phenomenon of dating, at least in the standard sense. This is completely uncharted territory for me, and I'm venturing forth trying to avoid common social mores and expectations--I'm trying to retain my integrity, that it's important to me I show only myself.

What's so confusing is my analyses are coming up far less hopeless than they ever have. Usually, it's easy to deduce that, if it's even possible, a relationship would be something short-lived and pointless. This woman and I get along well, we're both single, we're both creative and open-minded . . . bridging the gap from friendship to 'something closer' seems reasonable, and is something I feel I'd like.

please do understand that i only presume from your information, and any missing puzzle may lead to totally different conclusion

Thus I'll take the time to answer, aware that if she stumbles across this thread and figures it's about her it could muddle things (although I've no reason yet to think she's a member here), because I'm hopeful that someone might write a line or two that'll lead to some great insight.

[zippikay]

hmm, i'm actually still itching about how similar are you with this guy with the same name... do you look alike? what is the relationship of this guy with her? ex?

you said that you know that she is an introvert and you know her facebook; I would assume that you conclude her as being introvert by assessing how she interacts with you, her friends, and how many friends she has in her facebook--male and female

third point, let's try to guess about her conversation, I would refer the incumbent as S and her sister as R... I would assume that the "..." that you typed were actually where she fell silent, presumably her sister speaking at the moment...

R: hi, S, where're you at?
S: some place,
bla bla bla, the usual intro to conversation, then to the point where you heard about her words...
R: who are you with?
S: with a friend
R: who?
S: Rohsiph
if S didn't tell your name right away and her sister has to ask for your name for her to disclose your name, this may be significant point, move on...
R: either:
THE ROHSIPH who... (her sister really know about the person)
or
the guy that you told me about at that time? (her sister only heard about the person)
S:No, not that Rohsiph
R: well, do i know him?
S: no, you don't know him

... okay, at this point I would assume that:
1. her relationship with her sister is not that bad, otherwise they wouldn't call each other...
2. the significance of this other rohsiph that her sister also knows
3. the significance that she did not tell her about you
4. if the other rohsiph is only friend like you, then #2 would not be the case
5. from #4, then either this other rohsiph is childhood friend, kid from same neighborhood, or cousin (though I would doubt that this other rohsiph is a relative, since if it is, she would not refer as "that rohsiph"), or someone who has significance that she has to tel about him to his sister
6. if this rohsiph is so significant and her sister has to know him and he is not a relative, then this rohsiph has quite an impact to her live (which i presume that this person had touched S's emotion either as a friend or as other things)
okay, move on...

R:?????? ----> this is the piece that i would assume to be important, what did her sister said that make her said...
S:no, it's not like that
R:?????? -----> then her sister said something that make her want to hang up, which means that either:
1. she doesn't want to talk about it
2. she doesn't want to talk about it in front of you

you said that her tone casual, maybe sarcastic? how do you describe sarcastic? raised tone? raised voice? or maybe her sister said something that made her start to loose her temper and she tried to hide her loose emotion? she is aware that you may heard this conversation...

plus, you said that her roommate knows about other rohsiph? how did you meet her roommate, in her dorm? does she invite any friend to her dorm? if she is an introvert, she may not really inclined to do so, but like i said i presume and conclude from many things

so, how does my NT work, any correction or contradiction, or objection? we can always adjust it

[Henry]

I post here a lot in threads to do with women, dating, relationships, etc., usually offering a pretty cynical perspective that distrusts hope and social conditioning.

This makes me a bit reluctant to start this thread, but I know there are more than a few bright members here that I feel might be able to share some wisdom I'm failing to grasp.

I'll try to keep the 'story' short and to the point:

I met S in a class a year ago, she caught my interest but I never acted on it. A few months after that class, I was desperate to find an artist to help with illustrating a little project. All of my drawing/painting friends were busy at the moment, but I remembered S and that she was an art major and so I sent her a message and, surprisingly, she hopped on board and her part of the project turned out nicely.

I've been keeping channels open with her since we both returned to college since summer, exchanging messages a few times a week and spending some hours together when we can find time outside our very different schedules. She joined me to see a concert the other night and I was really tempted to awkwardly ask something like "How would you feel about trying to be more than friends?"

It's been half a decade since the last time I found myself interested in a woman where we both get along really well, legitimately enjoy each others' company, and she's single.

There's no magical way of divining exactly where the both of us stand in our relation except to in some way pose a question and hope that we both answer honestly . . . and I'm at a point where I've noticed a few things that make me pretty sure feelings are mutual, but my INTJ Achilles heel is acting up and I notice and keep trying to analyze how she's never really contacted me first. I trust that she and I are mature enough that we could stay friends if things didn't work out, but I'm having trouble convincing myself that now would be a good time to try moving things forward.

I wish she'd make a first move and save me all the worry, but don't realistically expect that to happen any time soon . . . so I wonder what the INTJ Forum community might think. Take the risk? Stay friends until she starts initiating things? Throw a brick through her window? ;)

I wouldn't mind if the topic eventually moves somewhere past simple advice, as I'm also interested hearing about what members might share, somewhat in corollary with the "Can a guy and girl just be friends?" topic, about how friendships can (or perhaps can't) evolve into more involved relationships--hence the title.

Stop whining, act like a man, and, provided you are both adults, make out with her for 3 minutes then grope her boobs and tell her what great tits she has. And I'm dead serious, because taking no action is the absolute worst thing you can do in these situations, worse even than making an arse of yourself.

[Rohsiph]

R:?????? ----> this is the piece that i would assume to be important, what did her sister said that make her said...
S:no, it's not like that
R:?????? -----> then her sister said something that make her want to hang up, which means that either:
1. she doesn't want to talk about it
2. she doesn't want to talk about it in front of you

you said that her tone casual, maybe sarcastic? how do you describe sarcastic? raised tone? raised voice? or maybe her sister said something that made her start to loose her temper and she tried to hide her loose emotion? she is aware that you may heard this conversation...

This is more or less my thought . . . what I've gathered about the other guy is he's part of a club she's in, that--jumping off the deep end--there's a chance he's crushing on her but not acting on it. But unless I meet him or ask her about him directly, I'm not going to find out for sure.

I think whether she wanted to explain why she was with me or not is more telling than the other guy. I'm pretty sure she was talking about me, that she hasn't told her sister about me, near the end of the convo. Which could be good or bad . . . she sounded slightly flustered by the end of the call. Her tone came from her being annoyed that she was being interrupted while we were watching a movie, but there was maybe a little anxiousness at the very end of the call.

plus, you said that her roommate knows about other rohsiph? how did you meet her roommate, in her dorm? does she invite any friend to her dorm? if she is an introvert, she may not really inclined to do so, but like i said i presume and conclude from many things

Only know about her roommate from a few lines she's said about her, and a message that was meant for the other guy from the roommate . . . which filled me in about his existence and how all three of them are in this same club.

so, how does my NT work, any correction or contradiction, or objection? we can always adjust it

I'm not worried about 'competing' for her, so I don't care to mine information about who this other guy who happens to share first names with me is. If she's trying to start something with him, then sure she won't want to move things along with me . . . but so be it. Call it what you will, I don't want to start a relationship with someone unless she wants to start one with me.

Stop whining, act like a man, and, provided you are both adults, make out with her for 3 minutes then grope her boobs and tell her what great tits she has. And I'm dead serious, because taking no action is the absolute worst thing you can do in these situations, worse even than making an arse of yourself.

There's some truth in your words . . . but this isn't something I'll end up doing without an indication that it's what she wants. I have no concern for "acting like a man." For better or worse, studying philosophy has led me to become even more inclined towards rejecting social norms whenever they don't fit comfortably. Asserting dominance so forcefully, especially in order to establish the foundation of what I'd want to be a mutually positive relationship, is something I can't respect, let alone make myself to do.

I'm doing what I can not to worry about it. I've got bigger things to worry about over the next few weeks--namely, I'll be taking the GRE a week from tomorrow. Not to say I don't want anymore advice, but, well, I know who I am, and think I know what I need--which would be to find the right hints that I could call 'green lights,' to justify a kind of action I haven't taken in years and years.

[ricearoni]

I'm doing what I can not to worry about it. I've got bigger things to worry about over the next few weeks--namely, I'll be taking the GRE a week from tomorrow. Not to say I don't want anymore advice, but, well, I know who I am, and think I know what I need--which would be to find the right hints that I could call 'green lights,' to justify a kind of action I haven't taken in years and years.

Wow. I thought I made things complicated.
Perhaps the problem isn't that you're seeking a green light from her, but yourself?

There's no magical way of divining exactly where the both of us stand in our relation except to in some way pose a question and hope that we both answer honestly . . . and I'm at a point where I've noticed a few things that make me pretty sure feelings are mutual, but my INTJ Achilles heel is acting up and I notice and keep trying to analyze how she's never really contacted me first. I trust that she and I are mature enough that we could stay friends if things didn't work out, but I'm having trouble convincing myself that now would be a good time to try moving things forward.

It seems like it's clear that there's enough interest to safely ask if she's interested in dating, ie she's gone on a few outings with you, she gets flustered when her sister asks what she's doing aloooone with you, she continues to make (well agree to) arrangements to meet up with you despite plans falling through...

And you've said that you know the friendship can survive the topic of being more than friends, it doesn't seem like there's any real problems other than how slow it may seem to be going. Plus, she's not as forward a woman as perhaps you'd like her to be.

I think you somewhat know how to progress the relationship, but maybe you're waiting until you're absolutely ready. Perhaps all this analyzing is a decoy for the fact that you're not quite ready to deal with the fact she might be equally as into you as you are her or maybe you just want to get all the exam craziness out of the way first.

But then I could be totally wrong and I'm just adding even more confusion to this.

Anyway, good luck whatever you do!
:)

[Rohsiph]

ricearoni--

You've probably got it right. I could say I've been a little disappointed/surprised that she hasn't been forward, but since I'm becoming increasingly convinced she's more introverted than I first thought it's something I can understand.

It's subconscious if I'm not ready to deal with her being into me, but maybe this could be . . . I am going a long way to look for anything suggesting that this isn't the case. I think it's very apt, however, that I want things in my life to settle a little more before jumping off a new cliff.

I'll see her again early next week . . . there's a conscious part of me that really wants to define boundaries, but another equal part that wants to make sure things proceed as naturally as possible.

In any case, I really do appreciate the analysis--and the good luck ;)

[zibber]

Just step out of your comfort zone a little bit and show you like her. Compliment her, maybe touch her every now and then (if you're comfortable with that, otherwise it will be awkward), and ASK HER OUT! This INTJ tactic of waiting in the shadows won't produce any tangible fruit, just a lot of theories in your head. This is something you can over-think, trust me.

Fuck green lights, what you know is that you like her. SHOW IT.

This may be a different approach, but ask yourself why she jumped on board so quickly, then you will have begun to understand what attracted her to you.

Then what, amplify the attractive behavior?


I agree, once the cat's out of the beg the 'how' won't matter . . . there'll be reciprocation, or there won't be, or there'll be a short period of confusion that would blow over and things would sort back to the way they were before.


How it comes out of the bag matters, though. Don't just ask her "hey, what if we tried having a relationship?!", that's dumb. Just go on some date-feeling dates; you can't know now whether you want a relationship.

[seoa]

all the analysis in the world is not going to help... the conversation with her sister most probably means more about her relationship with her sister than you (sisters are complicated sometimes...) i agree with the other poster that this is likely more about you being hesitant for whatever reason (probably out of practice...)

ultimately all relationships are risks... being friends is risky too... you cannot predict every curve of a relationship... so you can *always* find reasons not to try... you have to ask yourself if you're sufficiently risk-averse to be willing to stay single forever...

which is not to say you should necessarily ask her out... sometimes person A enters your life so that you can mull & cogitate & ask yourself (and us) a few questions, and open yourself up to maybe an alternate way of thinking, and a bit of self-development... maybe you won't be ready to ask this girl out in time (she'll move on before you're ready to move), and some future person B will benefit...

like i said before, your only option is to do the best/likely/worst case risk-assessment, and if you want the best, and can live with the likely & worst cases, then why wouldn't you do it...? if you aren't willing to live with the worst case, then don't go for it... bear in mind that your willingness to live with the different scenarios might change over time, so no harm in reassessing at intervals...

[44sunsets]

The "advice" that should be given for topics like this is always the same. Don't over-analyse things (this is a big thing, especially for highly introverted and intellectual types like us). Err on the side of action rather than inaction. Don't hide your feelings for her -- take the opportunity to snuggle/cuddle/poke her playfully. Lighten up and show your playful, sexy side -- everybody loves a fun-loving person. Learn to flirt, if you haven't already done so.

You have to be comfortable with yourself physically, and be secure sexually. A lot of people deny it, but attraction and sex are heavily intertwined. Your love interest needs to be able to imagine herself and you together intimately. If she can't, that means she feels no attraction for you. It's all about being a secure, self-assured, confident man.

Everybody always says to "tell her how you feel" but I usually advise against this as it is unnecessary, and often just makes things more complicated or worse. Her actions will always tell you exactly how she feels about you -- always believe actions rather than words.

And yes, you always need to believe that she wants you and that you're the man that she deserves. If you have any doubts, then she will have doubts.

Dating is all about finding out whether you're compatible with each other. You can go into deep intellectual conversations, but be sure to keep it as light and fun as possible. Don't venture into heavy, serious conversations -- this is why you should avoid stuff like "Do you want to have a relationship with me?". Don't put heavy expectations on her, because that sends out the "desperate" vibe and is a real turn-off.

I think the best "dates" are outings which are not dates. Don't call it a "date" when you organise one. You should do something rather active and physical, such as going to the amusement park or going for a stroll in the botanic gardens or visiting a good museum. It will give you a chance to interact with the environment as well as yourself, and you learn a lot about each other in the process.

Sitting down in a cafe and having deep conversations is good as well, but these should be interspersed with more active outings. The worst dates are of course the stereotypical movie and dinner dates.

ricearoni--
I could say I've been a little disappointed/surprised that she hasn't been forward

There are very few girls who are forward or direct, this is just the way females are. Men need to learn to read between the lines -- it's not all that difficult.

[Rohsiph]

The idea that "things just are" and that one must sway to reality, even when it's a burden to a certain individual, has never sat well with me. Perhaps its 'how things are now,' but this world isn't so determined that things won't change. Indeed, there is room for brilliant anomalies.

But that's neither here nor there . . . the next time I see this girl, I'll be consciously working on eye-contact, and if it feels like things are positive enough I hope to be able to say something along the lines of asking if she wants to date, or at least letting her know I'm starting to think of her as more than a friend.

If she shuts down and doesn't give me any positive feedback, I'll probably wait to make a move until after Thanksgiving, once things start settling down a bit more. I'm nearly past the point of stressing over this, and have tried something of a 'cost/benefit analysis' that I'm certain I'll say something--someday. Maybe not next week, with the both of us busier than we've ever really known . . . but maybe something'll blossom in winter, then. That'd fit for us symbolically--an emergence of life in the season of death . . .

[ElstonGunn]

The idea that "things just are" and that one must sway to reality, even when it's a burden to a certain individual, has never sat well with me.

I'm like that ten times over. If my choice is to decide between no one and a woman who's a slave to the idea that men are supposed to act first, I'll take no one and consider it an excellent bargain.

That being said, if you're willing to dick around with subtle indications, why not just make it clear to her that you're interested? Save both of you some time and frustration. Once you nudge that ball, it rolls itself.