Can a guy and girl just be friends?

[enfpchick]

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?
Do you believe one of them have some underlying motif? or do these type of friendships lead to something more down the line?

All personal examples welcome!

[Synamon]

Depends on the guy and the girl. I have many platonic male friends. Some people have none.

[Monte314]

Sure, guys and girls can just be friends. It's easier if there is some non-social aspect of their association that keeps things focused on "business" (e.g., they are co-workers, members of the same club, work on a committee or board together, etc.)

[ElstonGunn]

Out of my five "good friends" (a subjective term, of course), three are female. I'm not romantically interested in any of them, but I do think they're romantically interesting in general terms-- all three are great catches and all have multiple traits that I like and admire (in women or people in general), but for whatever reason, they don't really do it for me. If I found out that one of them was interested in me, I'd be in no rush to act on that (but not completely opposed to hearing her out). If one of them threw herself at me in a sexual way, I'd refuse her as gently as possible.

I also have several acquaintances and friends-of-friends who are female, but that's probably not what you're asking about.

[tp6626]

I tend to be so selective with friends, that I see no reason why I wouldn't allow any girl who manages to qualify as a friend, to be a potential girl friend.

There may be one or two who feel more like sisters, so to speak, and that's a bit different.

It's a funny one really.

[Plum21]

watch "when harry met sally"

jk. i think the relationship would have to be really casual and in group settings. this coms from my experience in life. i definitely am open to being wrong. i think it is very difficult for a guy and girl to be in a close relationship without the question, "do we take this to another level?"

that is why many male pastors don't counsel women- at least alone. a group thing or marriage counseling is different.





Plum21 added to this post, 0 minutes and 45 seconds later...

many times when im a friend with a guy i will realize i am attracted to him in some way, even if he's not the one for me. yes, i do believe in the one :) and being alone can be dangerous.

[enfpchick]

. I also have several acquaintances and friends-of-friends who are female, but that's probably not what you're asking about.

No i mean like good friends, you can almost say best friends. They're the one you always call whenever something happens or you're always there for them.
Can they still coexist as just friends?

[ame]

I believe there is always underlying sexual tension.
They can remain friends if certain boundaries are kept.

[Synamon]

I believe there is always underlying sexual tension.
They can remain friends if certain boundaries are kept.

Correct. You have to 'click' with someone for them to be a very close friend on an intellectual and emotional level and there will be some kind of attraction, that is part of the intimacy of the relationship that develops naturally between men and women. Do you have sex with everyone who you find attractive? No. Do you have to have sex with everyone you are friends with? Again, no.

[notthedroid]

When I am having relationship drama or other difficult trouble that is seriously stressing out, I get out the big guns - I talk the man who married my best friend. He is probably the one person in the world I could talk to about anything, since my best friend passed on. We think of each other as family.

The two people in this world who understand me best are men. And both NFs, I think. Go figure. One I dated, but it didn't work out. We kept the friendship.

[Reon]

No i mean like good friends, you can almost say best friends. They're the one you always call whenever something happens or you're always there for them.
Can they still coexist as just friends?

I believe so, I have been friends with girls that I know are 'pretty' and such, being fairly close, and have never been 'attracted' to them.

[ElstonGunn]

No i mean like good friends, you can almost say best friends. They're the one you always call whenever something happens or you're always there for them.

Okay, that's the kind of thing I was referring to when I mentioned my five good friends, three of whom are female. (Well, in essence... I don't call or tell people when things happen, but they're free to tell me anything, and I might tell them a couple of things about myself, too.)

I don't think of them as potential love-interests. I don't really know why that is, because I like them plenty in a platonic way, and I can see that they have a lot to offer as love-interests for someone else. It's sort of like how I can understand why some people like baseball, but I have no interest in it myself. It's almost like a sibling kind of thing, I guess, like "Yeah, you're alright and I think you're great, but let's not go beyond that, please."

[Colette]

I believe there is always underlying sexual tension.
They can remain friends if certain boundaries are kept.

Yeah I agree. Based on my own experience I've had no friendships with men where there hasn't been any underlying tension (based on a latent mutual attraction, or one-sided attraction). Maybe it's possible; I just haven't experienced it. And I'll be totally honest in saying that this might be because I tend to avoid male friendships unless there is that underlying frisson - that is what seems to make it more interesting to me somehow.

[enfpchick]

95% of all my friends are guys. It's always been that way since i could remember. Anyways, someone once told me that its not possible for us, guys and girls, to be friends and they would jump my bones the first chance they got. I just don't believe this is true!
I feel that I have a platonic relationship with them and them with me.
But their girlfriends usually don't think that's possible, especially when i go out alone with them.

[punkyplatypus]

I think it's definitely possible, especially if there's a joined focus (related/family, job, school, mutual friend, etc). However from my experience, I think there's usually an underlying, romantic motive. Most of the girls I've been friends with, I've had an attraction to them and/or they seemed to have an attraction to me. Only a few really felt like truly platonic friendships with no sexual attraction or desire for anything more serious.

After thinking this through a bit, being close friends or best friends with someone of the opposite sex (and being straight) is even more rare. If me and a girl just clicked so perfectly that we could be best friends I think I'd be able to overlook some faults (like if I didn't find her physically attractive) and begin to consider her as more than a friend. I think this is especially true if I don't have many other prospects. On the other hand, if I were already in a committed relationship that I was happy with, I think having a girl for a close friend is possible as long as my current girlfriend didn't mind (I'd be careful to avoid that kind of drama, though).

[Lucid]

No i mean like good friends, you can almost say best friends. They're the one you always call whenever something happens or you're always there for them.
Can they still coexist as just friends?

My best friend of 10 years is male. He's awesome. Attractive in a general way, intelligent, responsible, all that. But he just doesn't do it for me. We've never dated, never had sex or even any kind of sexual tension. When something happens or when I need someone to talk to, he's the first person I call.

So whoever told you they can't be is just projecting their social misgivings onto the rest of us.

[jaythej]

i definitely think having female friends, as a guy, is possible ... because i have a lot of them. i've grown up around females so i get along with girls very well.

[LionsPride]

I have the theory that a guy and girl can be friends on one condition:

Each has to believe that the other person would sleep with them under some circumstance.

This is not to say that this would be desirable for the thinker, only that in the eyes of their friend, that there is some possibility, however remote, that the other person wouldn't be opposed to sex. For example: Billy may never be willing to sleep with Susie, but Billy is fairly certain that if he was the last man on Earth, Susie would be willing to sleep with him, not that he'd take her up on it...

The reason I believe this is that all guy/girl relationships that I have seen where one admits to the other that there is no chance, no matter how remote (last man on Earth included) that they would sleep with them, the friendship tends to dissolve and they lose interest in each other soon after.

I post this because I'm curious if anyone can honestly say "I know my best friend would never, EVER sleep with me under any circumstance and I am okay with that, I don't want to sleep with them either." I haven't met anyone who disproved it yet, but it's just a theory and still requires much vetting.

Just as a note, I assume 'friends' does not mean business colleagues or acquaintances. It means people you would actively put time into remaining friends with (ie. call them if they didn't call you in a while etc.) and that you do not have a crush on. It HAS to be platonic on your end.

[curiousjane]

watch "when harry met sally"
:thumbsup:

Personally, I cautiously agree that purely platonic friendship are indeed possible. However, in order for such a friendship to truly thrive, boundaries need to be obvious. And those boundaries are not often put in place by people, so it is much more likely that there will always be some deep underlying twinge of possibility existing under the surface.

It helps if the friend of an opposite gender is somehow "unavailable," because those boundaries do become obvious then.

But I also agree that it is so easy to begin to associate platonic affection with growing romantic twinges. The closeness would already be in place.

[Aeroscoper]

I would agree with others that most opposite sex friendships have an underlying sexual tension. I would also agree that it may possibly work with very clearly defined boundaries and very little room for mishaps.

I feel we INTJ's have the best chance since much of our attraction isn't a physical one. Though from my experience (I've had more closer female friends than males over the years), there's so much capacity for failure that I try to avoid those now that I'm married.

[intj1999]

Most of my friends are men because as an INTJ I get along better with men. I understand how they think, etc. As long as there is no physical attraction, it is very easy to be friends with someone of the opposite sex.

[Daj]

Definitely. I have women who are friends and i've never been attracted to them.

[rahdam]

Most of my friends are men because as an INTJ I get along better with men. I understand how they think, etc. As long as there is no physical attraction, it is very easy to be friends with someone of the opposite sex.

What is a relationship but simply good friendship layered with sexual attraction? Internally, I think of it this way.

[ScurvyRose]

Definitely. I have women who are friends and i've never been attracted to them.

**whomp** Trout slap!!

I generally find that while one person believes it is just a friendship, the other holds sexual attraction in addition to friendship.

[intj1999]

What is a relationship but simply good friendship layered with sexual attraction? Internally, I think of it this way.

That is how I think of it too, but I keep being told that this belief is mistaken and that there is some additional "magical" stuff that needs to happen. I, of course, stick to my original understanding of friendship+sexual attraction.

[AliTree]

if you'r a girl with a very dominating and independent personality (like mine) i think you can handle platonic male friends just fine. i think like guys and so bond with guys better but i don't feel attracted to every guy i become friends with. only a select few.
i think strong females can do this easier and possibly more emotional males can do this easier too.

[tp6626]

i think like guys and so bond with guys better but i don't feel attracted to every guy i become friends with. only a select few.

So if you turned the tables, do you think that they would have the same view of you as you do about them?

[Frag]

if you'r a girl with a very dominating and independent personality (like mine) i think you can handle platonic male friends just fine.
[snip]
i think strong females can do this easier
Sigh. Yeah, you (they?) can.

It's like I say to (strong) extraverts... its not you, its us.

[enWTFp]

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?Yes.Do you believe one of them have some underlying motif?In general, no. or do these type of friendships lead to something more down the line? Possibly. Not necessarily.

[metamagnet]

Chris Rock has an interesting argument lol
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[AliTree]

So if you turned the tables, do you think that they would have the same view of you as you do about them?

that's an interesting thought...i'm not sure. i know that some friendships i have had with guys where seen as flirting and feelings where hurt but others did not. i don't know. depends on the guy mostly.

Sigh. Yeah, you (they?) can.

It's like I say to (strong) extraverts... its not you, its us.

well i'm not an extrovert otherwise i'd be an ENTJ. i'm just fiercely independent. i definitely don't approach and make friends first. they have to come to me.

[Deliberator]

I don't know if that can be the case with everyone. How deep a friendship are we talking about? I don't think a heterosexual man and woman who have a deep friendship can escape some underlying sexual desire by at least one person. If you mean just casual friends then yes, absolutely.

My first boyfriend started out as a friend who I would never ever ever ever date. After awhile we got too close mentally and emotionally, so when he asked me out I said yes. And it was just as bad as I thought it'd be. I was never attracted to him physically, but I convinced myself that I was. Hell, I was barely attracted to him mentally.

I don't know about the rest of the world but I'm pretty sure being who I am, I can't be very good friends with a guy. Problem is, I don't get along with most girls either.

[ElstonGunn]

On the flipside, can gay people be friends? Or how about a straight woman and a gay man, or vice-versa?

[Cygnus]

95% of all my friends are guys. It's always been that way since i could remember. Anyways, someone once told me that its not possible for us, guys and girls, to be friends and they would jump my bones the first chance they got. I just don't believe this is true!
I feel that I have a platonic relationship with them and them with me.
But their girlfriends usually don't think that's possible, especially when i go out alone with them.

That is adding a whole new dimension to the topic..and indeed makes your initial question all the "loaded question" as I thought it was. I consider it dangerous and bad practice to spend time alone with a woman that is a friend, if that woman is romantically involved with a man. It shows no respect for him or their relationship together. It can lead to very hostile feelings when that relationship encounters some turmoil (which will happen in any relationship over time).

[Daj]

**whomp** Trout slap!!

I generally find that while one person believes it is just a friendship, the other holds sexual attraction in addition to friendship.

Might be true, but not the case with my female friends and myself.

[AliTree]

On the flipside, can gay people be friends? Or how about a straight woman and a gay man, or vice-versa?

i would have to say the bi/gay/metro guys become my close friends very quickly and easily. better then any other person, bye far.

[ElstonGunn]

i would have to say the bi/gay/metro guys become my close friends very quickly and easily. better then any other person, bye far.

So denotatively, you're evidence that men and women can be friends. If I understand the original question, then-- if (if) you and I can be taken at our words-- then you, I, et al are all conclusive evidence to close the case. (I thought the question was can men and women be innocent friends, as opposed to, 'is it the general paradigm...,' or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

[AliTree]

So denotatively, you're evidence that men and women can be friends. If I understand the original question, then-- if (if) you and I can be taken at our words-- then you, I, et al are all conclusive evidence to close the case. (I thought the question was can men and women be innocent friends, as opposed to, 'is it the general paradigm...,' or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

yeah, basically. haha.

[enfpchick]

That is adding a whole new dimension to the topic..and indeed makes your initial question all the "loaded question" as I thought it was. I consider it dangerous and bad practice to spend time alone with a woman that is a friend, if that woman is romantically involved with a man. It shows no respect for him or their relationship together. It can lead to very hostile feelings when that relationship encounters some turmoil (which will happen in any relationship over time).


Ya the girlfriends usually don't like me.

Now i can see why.

[Colette]

That is adding a whole new dimension to the topic..and indeed makes your initial question all the "loaded question" as I thought it was. I consider it dangerous and bad practice to spend time alone with a woman that is a friend, if that woman is romantically involved with a man. It shows no respect for him or their relationship together. It can lead to very hostile feelings when that relationship encounters some turmoil (which will happen in any relationship over time).

Yeah I tend to agree. I've tried to be 'friends' with married men (mostly at their instigation I might add) and it doesn't work. The man may not think they're not doing anything wrong in relation to their spouse, but usually the spouse doesn't agree, and I've had problems on at least 2 occasions with jealous wives. An 'exclusive' friendship (i.e. one where nobody else is involved on the social occasion), creates a sense of emotional intimacy I think, in people of the opposite sex. Emotional intimacy is only one step away from physical intimacy and (some would argue) is already in the 'cheating' category.

[Seppuku Savant]

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?
Yes, as long as both parties aren't romantically interested in each other.

Do you believe one of them have some underlying motif? or do these type of friendships lead to something more down the line?
Some may, but not always.

[taintedkitty]

That is adding a whole new dimension to the topic..and indeed makes your initial question all the "loaded question" as I thought it was. I consider it dangerous and bad practice to spend time alone with a woman that is a friend, if that woman is romantically involved with a man. It shows no respect for him or their relationship together. It can lead to very hostile feelings when that relationship encounters some turmoil (which will happen in any relationship over time).

Gosh, my closest friends throughout the years have all been guys.

Perhaps it is my naivety talking here, but I am a romantically involved female, who goes out with her male best friend (one on one) occassionally.

I don't agree that it shows no respect to my partner, or his partner. Such a remark is akin to viewing myself and my friend as territory. I can understand that it may cause some very hostile feelings, but I believe this arises out of a needlessly jealous person. So long as the bounds of a platonic relationship are clear to everyone and adhered to, there is little to suggest that either of us are cheating (or manipulating the other to cause conflict in their relationship). I view this unnecessary jealousy as a lack of trust. (What i'm talking about is the "omg you're talking to a man!!!! get away from my girl!!!" sort of jealousy).

It should also be noted, the emotional intimacy between myself and my partner is much deeper than any I've experienced with anyone else. However, that doesn't diminish the worth of my best friend in terms of emotional intimacy. It's simply, different.

[Cygnus]

Gosh, my closest friends throughout the years have all been guys.

Perhaps it is my naivety talking here, but I am a romantically involved female, who goes out with her male best friend (one on one) occassionally.

I don't agree that it shows no respect to my partner, or his partner. Such a remark is akin to viewing myself and my friend as territory. I can understand that it may cause some very hostile feelings, but I believe this arises out of a needlessly jealous person. So long as the bounds of a platonic relationship are clear to everyone and adhered to, there is little to suggest that either of us are cheating (or manipulating the other to cause conflict in their relationship). I view this unnecessary jealousy as a lack of trust. (What i'm talking about is the "omg you're talking to a man!!!! get away from my girl!!!" sort of jealousy).

It should also be noted, the emotional intimacy between myself and my partner is much deeper than any I've experienced with anyone else. However, that doesn't diminish the worth of my best friend in terms of emotional intimacy. It's simply, different.

The point being, you can needlessly complicate your friend relationship merely since his or her partner does not share your view on this topic. The very last thing I would ever want to do to a friend is make his or her life more difficult. My use of the word respect is appropriate to my view point, it does not imply anything other than being respectful for all people involved. Trust is a fickle thing and even the most noble of us have slips in judgement and make mistakes..sometimes it is best to not tempt fate and invite disaster by setting up an potentially explosive senario. Also when things get rocky in a relationship people are very quick to jump to conclusions that support their angry feelings....Part of a relationship is you assuming responsibilty of how your actions impact those you care for...or you can point the finger that it is someone's else trust issue...

[Antares]

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?
Do you believe one of them have some underlying motif? or do these type of friendships lead to something more down the line?
All personal examples welcome!
Well, I don't admit this to people, but I've 'sized' most of them up to see if they can be a potential romantic interest. But it doesn't progress much more than that (not saying I don't flirt, as in the popular definition of flirting that I disgree with, with them once in a while), as I discover my feelings for all of my male friends are strictly platonic. I would even call a relationship between me and a about three of my male friends 'fraternal', as they either feel like older, younger or twin brothers to me. I've had a crush on one of them, but it quickly deteoriated (First, he became 'fraternal') and now we barely speak (we just grew apart. Not anyone's fault in particular. We don't have classes together anymore). I never managed to develop serious crushes on any of my guy friends; they are what they are: Just friends.

[taintedkitty]

The point being, you can needlessly complicate your friend relationship merely since his or her partner does not share your view on this topic. The very last thing I would ever want to do to a friend is make his or her life more difficult. My use of the word respect is appropriate to my view point, it does not imply anything other than being respectful for all people involved. Trust is a fickle thing and even the most noble of us have slips in judgement and make mistakes..sometimes it is best to not tempt fate and invite disaster by setting up an potentially explosive senario. Also when things get rocky in a relationship people are very quick to jump to conclusions that support their angry feelings....Part of a relationship is you assuming responsibilty of how your actions impact those you care for...or you can point the finger that it is someone's else trust issue...

Ah, I understand now.

It really was my naivety and immaturity talking.

I think my reply to your first answer was out of .. i think its outrage?...at the blanket-statement - "I consider it dangerous and bad practice to spend time alone with a woman that is a friend, if that woman is romantically involved with a man."

It really meant "It can be bad practice..."
If the partner doesn't share your point of view. I think the wording just made me think you were ... what I said you were. A person who views people as territory, to be possessive of. Whereas in reality, it's a consideration of your friend and his position. I got a bit iffy at the idea that I should immediately cease going-out-somewhere with my friend, if he were to have a girlfriend. I think an appropriate response is to scope it out myself and also, ask him (and totally respect it if he said no). Another contributing factor could be the fact I rarely see him within a group of friends.

I can see that I have pointed the finger and called it someone else's trust issue. Time to amend my own viewpoint. To something less selfish, heh.

[SmileyMan]

Finally some people who have the same opinion regarding male-female (Psychologically) friendships as I do.

I do not believe that a man and a woman can be friends without the man, at least once, thinks about having sexual relations with the woman. I'm talking about a man who is psychologically male (Heterosexual) and a woman, whom the man regards as a female and not a "pal".

Other males always try to ridicule me or become angry whenever I pop this theory. I just think they're afraid of people seeing their "true faces" - the only real motivation behind their so-called friendships.

[Shoeless]

An 'exclusive' friendship (i.e. one where nobody else is involved on the social occasion), creates a sense of emotional intimacy I think, in people of the opposite sex. Emotional intimacy is only one step away from physical intimacy and (some would argue) is already in the 'cheating' category.

Pretty much sums up why I tend to avoid being too close with members of the opposite sex.

I used to have 3 close female friends (each one was at a different phase of my life). All 3 ended up wanting to take things to another level even though I saw myself as a brother to them. I do admit that I did see them as potential relationship material, but the thought faded away quickly and I saw myself as a brother looking after his sister.

While I avoid single women like plague now (since I'm emotionally unavailable for dating), I don't mind hanging out with attached/married women. The fact that they are unavailable sets the boundaries, and I do think of how their boyfriend/husband might think as well. Hence I try to avoid being seen alone with them (to avoid potential misunderstanding) and if one of them asks me out (not on a date, a cup of coffee for example), I always try to drag in someone else to make it become a group outing. Prevention is better than cure, always.

[Frag]

well i'm not an extrovert otherwise i'd be an ENTJ. i'm just fiercely independent. i definitely don't approach and make friends first. they have to come to me.
Didn't mean to imply this.

Rather, I don't doubt one party indeed can "handle platonic friends just fine" - and from their perspective, it is "just friends".

The other person, too often enduring unrequited love silently, can handle it too.

How long though, is questionable.

[AliTree]

Didn't mean to imply this.

Rather, I don't doubt one party indeed can "handle platonic friends just fine" - and from their perspective, it is "just friends".

The other person, too often enduring unrequited love silently, can handle it too.

How long though, is questionable.

i see what you're getting at. yeah, how the relationship is perceived by both parties may not be the same...

[Cygnus]

Ah, I understand now.

It really was my naivety and immaturity talking.

I think my reply to your first answer was out of .. i think its outrage?...at the blanket-statement - "I consider it dangerous and bad practice to spend time alone with a woman that is a friend, if that woman is romantically involved with a man."

It really meant "It can be bad practice..."
If the partner doesn't share your point of view. I think the wording just made me think you were ... what I said you were. A person who views people as territory, to be possessive of. Whereas in reality, it's a consideration of your friend and his position. I got a bit iffy at the idea that I should immediately cease going-out-somewhere with my friend, if he were to have a girlfriend. I think an appropriate response is to scope it out myself and also, ask him (and totally respect it if he said no). Another contributing factor could be the fact I rarely see him within a group of friends.

I can see that I have pointed the finger and called it someone else's trust issue. Time to amend my own viewpoint. To something less selfish, heh.

I am rather cryptic :) Odd for an INTJ, I know..perhaps it is my firm belief that how someone arrives at a conclusion is just as important as the conclusion itself. I have really enjoyed reading the content of this thread. Navigating the swirling waters of human emotion and human nature is tricky, and the exchange of ideas and perceptions can help us excersice better foresight to possibily avoid many obivious complications.

[radames]

For me, I would need something on which to focus rather than on the relation itself. I think that it would need to be something that keeps the mind busy on the action, or project, so that instinctual magnetism does not take over.

[Released]

From my experience, yes.

I'm a man, and all of my life the vast majority of my closest friends have been women, and practically none have been men. I've known other INTJs (and seen it said here) that INTJs tend to get along best with the opposite sex. I know it's true for me.

I've been friends with women I find attractive and those I don't, where there is/was physical or mental or emotional attraction and where there is/was none, and with varying degrees of emotional intimacy. The friendships last as long as they can, though they may not stand up to the challenges that a relationship or a best-friendship could withstand*. Circumstances can push people apart, but I know about 5 women with whom, were I to find myself being their neighbour or working with them, I could continue where we left off. In fact, finding old friends through social networking sites, this is what has happened: we've continued precisely from where we left off -- as very, very close friends who trust each other a lot.

So I would have to say yes. Romantic feelings can complicate things, and circumstances can complicate things, but yes, men and women can just be friends.


* To me, it's an entirely different question, and a very interesting one, if a guy and girl can be *best* friends and remain best friends throughout their whole lives without being romantically involved. A woman can have a female best friend and a husband (or a man a male best friend and a wife) and they can be close to each, each without threatening the other, as they are different relationships. But I'd expect it to be different for a male-female friendship where each consider the other to be a "best friend", as eventually, romantic feelings would cause problems, when one of the two has feelings for either the other (which changes the nature of the friendship) or for someone else (which threatens the primacy of the friendship in the eyes of one of them but not necessarily in the other).

[reb]

2 really good male friends

several really good female friends.

i spose it's the residual testosterone...i don't do well when someone starts pushing their testosterone on me...don't play well with others...

[Reganon]

My two best friends are guys. Both of them are intelligent, attractive, hilarious, and awesome, so it is inevitable that a bit of underlying sexual tension exists. (Mostly between the two of them as we like to joke) But we are such good friends that no amount of sexual tension underlying, or overlying for that matter, will ever cause us to not be friends.

[SongofSeptember]

Definitely! At least from my experience.

Two of my best friends are guys, and I know that I could never, ever, ever date them. It would be like trying to go out with a brother. I actually find them much easier to get along with than with girls.

Thing is, Some of my girl friends who don't share these types of experiences often tease me about it. I honestly doubt there's anything wrong with a guy and a girl being friends and just that, but it's the social norm that makes it seem like they can't.

[AliTree]

I'm a man, and all of my life the vast majority of my closest friends have been women, and practically none have been men. I've known other INTJs (and seen it said here) that INTJs tend to get along best with the opposite sex. I know it's true for me.

i would be one of those INTJs, haha.

[FoxyGirl55]

Have any of you read about The Ladder Theory? If not, just Google it. I'm not saying I buy it. I just thought it was something the individuals posting on this thread might be interested in. However, I do think it is good for a few laughs (if you're not overly sensitive) and some of it (based on my experience) does ring true.

[Chisos]

This is a hard question for a guy to answer with certainty. I believe that the sexual tension will be there. Period.

As the friendship develops, the sexual tension may move aside a bit, as the friendship develops. Seems like the thought of sex is still going to arise from time to time--even though it is not acted upon.

Can't say what chicks are thinking for sure. But from the posts it seems that the perspective is to some extent mutual among both sexes.

Also, as I write this, I think, "Since INTJ's seem to be selective in their friends, could they REALLY completely exclude sexual attraction from a person of the opposite sex who becomes their friend?" Not that they would act on the attraction--for one thing, it might destroy the friendship. But the urge is there, even if controlled or ignored.

[Sinequanon]

I'm going to say the answer varies between "no" to "it depends" but rarely "yes".

Speaking for myself here, it's "no" in the sense that I only really attempt to make friends with women who I find, in some way, attractive. This is because I require close friendship to be the prime prerequisite for a relationship. So I find it's best to exclude from my list of potential people I'd consider "close" those who I find unattractive (for a variety of reasons, not just appearance alone. Excessive materialism, or shallowness or ignorance or racism or any number of reasons could disqualify someone). Ultimately, I don't see myself allowing someone who is not a close friend to be someone I'd consider myself to be in a "relationship" with. Yet the primary purpose of developing a friendship with a female (if I were theoretically unattached) would be to explore whether a more serious relationship would be possible (and to enjoy their company in the interim of course).

"It depends" in the sense that my own personal morality will not allow me to violate another person's marriage or strong relationship. If I feel their relationship is in some way damaging (usually the only way I know this is because they've actually out-and-out said so), I will attempt to help them see that. But I will never directly inject myself into that situation. While we may be "just friends", it's a conditional situation dependent on some possibly temporary state.

"Yes" occurs when someone who I've already vetted as a close friend is, for some reason, disqualified as a potential mate. This would be an instance where maybe we've dated and ended things and are now friends, or a status my other female friends would take on if I were involved in a serious relationship with someone else, or if attempting a relationship would violate some other tie to that person that makes a lot of sense not to violate (the person is a student of mine or an employer of mine), or if someone I allowed to become close does something that makes me not want to be with them any longer (This one is more difficult but let's say, for a wild f'rinstance, she runs off and joins a cult or something).

[ElstonGunn]

Why does sexual tension preclude friendship in so many people's minds? It's impossible to find a friend attractive and keep that thought to yourself?

[Synamon]

Why does sexual tension preclude friendship in so many people's minds? It's impossible to find a friend attractive and keep that thought to yourself?

I think sexual tension makes a male - female friendship stronger. The chemistry creates an additional bond. I have no problems with it. Others do though, I'd be interested in why that would disqualify someone from being your friend as well.

[Released]

i would be one of those INTJs, haha.
One of many, many, many, many no doubt. Nice to meet you btw ;)

[michael ingram]

No.

[ame]

No.
Personal experience?

[RobinHood]

Hi, it's my first message on INTJf, please be gentle :) So far, what I have read, people seems quite friendly. Maybe I haven't met the more colorful ones yet...

I read a good book on the subject last summer, quite interesting treatment of the subject. I had a few of these kind of relationships and they are very nourishing. The summary:

:: Beyond Friendship and Eros: Unrecognized Relationships Between Men and Women ::

"Culminating a twenty-year personal and scholarly quest, the authors explore the phenomenon of loving relationships (minus the sexual attraction) between men and women. They articulate these relationships as dialogical love in which partners respond to each other's presence personally rather than categorically as friend or lover. In a society where relationships of dialogical love are neither articulated and named nor recognized as acceptable ways of being, they are usually mistaken as affairs or regarded as "just" friend relationships. Since these relationships are spontaneous, free, and open, their meaning is disclosed through examples rather than by traditional definition. Throughout the book, the authors share their own personal relationship, similar relationships of those they interviewed, and relationships from literature and popular movies. Further illuminating interpretations of friendship and love are excerpts from C. S. Lewis, Rollo May, Caroline Simon, and Robert Solomon. Personal relationships are explicated by the work of Martin Buber, John Macmurray, and Alfred Schutz."
[From Amazon]

Cheers.

[Josephine1012]

I think this topic is really interesting. I used to be a very strong believer in a "yes, absolutely, why not" As I got a little older and analyzed a little I realized that it isn't really true.

Majority of my friends have always been male. However, I do not have any male friends that have been consistently friends with me for an extended period of time (anything over 4-5 years for when either is involved with other people, about 4 months when we're both single).

There is always drama. I agree with LionsPride that even if you're not interested in your friend sexually you need to know that they will sleep with you under some circumstance. But given long enough time due to that little side note, someone always crosses the line.

I can honestly say I get along with men better, but it is because they are more forgiving of my quirks, writing them off as "she is a girl, so she is different.... eh, whatever"

Every single friendship I have had with a guy either ended in a relationship or ended very very badly with lots of hurt feelings. Or I was wise enough to keep the distance enough where it never crossed the line. But when you keep that distance is it that true all inclusive friendship we're really talking about.

I guess, I'm speaking from a personal experience, but I've never been friends with a guy who hasn't at some point tried to sleep with me... I know how it sounds, but it is the honest to god truth. I don't think I encourage it, but considering that stipulation mentioned by LionsPride earlier perhaps subconsciously I do. I doubt I'm alone in that though...

[AliTree]

Why does sexual tension preclude friendship in so many people's minds? It's impossible to find a friend attractive and keep that thought to yourself?

yeah, i don't really understand where the line is either (mostly because of my being female). do most guys really have a problem with being around a female who they think is even slightly attractive without thinking about her in a sexual way? i know i really don't have issues with that. i know i have attractive guy friends and i haven't entertained thoughts of being with them in my mind. i have with some of my guy friends when i see a connection between us on a personality level. that's when it becomes a kicker for me, i think. also, can the thought cross your mind (of the friendship becoming more) without you entertaining thoughts of it becoming more? (ie. you have thought "could this person and i be a couple?" and then compare you and them on personality & such, decide "yes" or "no" and then drop the subject in your mind) because i have done that.

One of many, many, many, many no doubt. Nice to meet you btw ;)

haha, nice to meet you too :]

[alphawolf]

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?

Not unless one of them is gay/lesbian. One of them is always attracted to the other one. Sometimes they both secretly fantasize about each other, but are scared to tell the other. Sometimes one fantasizes about the other, and if the other knew then he/she would be freaked out. Sometimes the other is not so freaked out. Sometimes the other was just waiting for you to make a move. Maybe waiting for a long time...

Even straight women have fallen in love with gay men friends. Fictionary example: Will and Grace

Summary: NO

[Synamon]

Why does the fact that one or both are attracted to the other preclude friendship? That's the part of this discussion I don't understand. Why do people have trouble being friends when there is attraction? Can't you choose NOT to act on the attraction and accept the friendship?

You seem to have contradicted yourself in your example, those two were in fact best friends.

[alphawolf]

You seem to have contradicted yourself in your example, those two were in fact best friends.

Put those two alone in a room, let Will say "I don't like men any more", count how long until Grace jumps his bones and boots start knocking.

Some couples are best friends, too. I think that's what we all wish for.

But when one of two friends is fantasizing about the other in some way, it is not "just friends", regardless if only one of them knows about it.

[Josephine1012]

I guess it is a matter of defining friendship. When two people of the same sex are friends the friendship remains somewhat stable for the most part. With the two people of the opposite sex it's just waiting to change into a relationship or at least there is always that promise that is not ignored by at least one of the parties. You have to be a lot more careful. At the same time there is always that desire to be desired, even if you don't want to deal with the consequences. It's a lot like playing with fire.

The way I see it, the motivations of those two friendships are different. It's a matter of someone biding their time because there is always that tension. People act differently with each other than they would with members of the same sex. It is still a lot of fun and I'm not saying those types of relationships shouldn't exist. But you gotta call things what they are.

The funny thing is I would never admit this in the real world, but that is for purely selfish reasons of wanting to keep my social circle. But I do believe in a male/female friendship someone eventually gets hurt or they end up dating.

[Synamon]

But when one of two friends is fantasizing about the other in some way, it is not "just friends", regardless if only one of them knows about it.

... I'm not saying those types of relationships shouldn't exist. But you gotta call things what they are.
To clarify, both of you think male/female interaction leads to relationships and cannot just be a friendship.

But I do believe in a male/female friendship someone eventually gets hurt or they end up dating.
This is where my experience and thought process differs from yours. I do not believe that a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is the one and only possible result of male/female friendships.

I have had and continue to have friendships with men even though I'm married. I can't be someone's friend if I don't like them, and liking someone involves some sort of attraction to their mind. Part of who I am is female so I relate to them as a female. Sometimes there is sexual tension as a result. It is just another bond. It is not acted on by either party and has never been an issue.

Maybe Josephine is right and it's playing with fire for people who don't know their own boundaries, in which case they should stay away from the opposite sex if they are not interested in a relationship with them. I just think it is a shame to discount 50% of the population as possible friends.

[PortInStorm]

Put those two alone in a room, let Will say "I don't like men any more", count how long until Grace jumps his bones and boots start knocking.

Some couples are best friends, too. I think that's what we all wish for.

But when one of two friends is fantasizing about the other in some way, it is not "just friends", regardless if only one of them knows about it.
See, here we have the classic conundrum of explicit vs. implicit, thought vs. action etc.

In psychology we have this debate all the time: is a person 'cured' when they act normally or when they think normally? So one of you says it's just friends when you act as friends, and the other says it's not just friends when you act as friends, because there's an implicit attraction.

So let me ask a question: do we put people in jail because they thought about harming someone when they were angry? Because they were tempted to steal? No, we do it when they actually harmed someone or stole something. In the legal world, we judge people on their actions, so why all of a sudden is the bar higher in personal lives? It isn't good enough that people reign in their impulses, but now they're at fault because they have these impulses at all?

[Josephine1012]

I was under the impression we were talking about close friendships... We all have friends we associate with on regular basis. But I guess I think that when we're talking about a much closer friendship, that's when things become an issue.

Once again, I'm pulling on my own experience, but.... almost every friendship I've had with a guy proceeded in one of these ways:

both of us are single, we hang out... but it invariably ends up that my friend expresses interest. if they are subtle, I subtly express the lack thereof and we continue to be friends until the guy meets the girl he likes and then he promptly excuses himself from my life...

There has been one situation where the interest was mutual so it ended in a relationship.

I also have several situations when my guy friends had significant others. But when they were seeking a VERY CLOSE emotional bond with another female usually spelled out doom for their significant other. I'm not talking about just being buddies, I'm talking about being close and sharing very personal things and being open.

I know I'm only speaking in terms of what I've seen and I'm not denying that there might be an example that will contradict my experience.

I'd be curious to hear if someone has a really close (let's say best) friend of the opposite sex with whom they have a true emotional bond. I'm curious to hear about such friendship that has been in existence for an extended period of time and the friendship line was never crossed by either party.

I don't seek out men for relationship purposes only, but i can not maintain a stable friendship with any of them without things getting messy. It is hardly ever my doing.

[Synamon]

I'd be curious to hear if someone has a really close (let's say best) friend of the opposite sex with whom they have a true emotional bond. I'm curious to hear about such friendship that has been in existence for an extended period of time and the friendship line was never crossed by either party.

That is the exact kind of friendship I refer to for myself. I had a close male friend all through university (we drifted apart when we started working in different cities) and I've had a number of other close friendships with others which lasted years as well. I've had as many male best friends as female during my life. I find it easy to relate to men and there are two that I'm close to at the moment and who I discuss private thoughts with.

[alphawolf]

It isn't good enough that people reign in their impulses, but now they're at fault because they have these impulses at all?

Desire is not a crime. Denial is not just a river in Egypt, either. A fly on the wall would allow the truth to be seen.

[Josephine1012]

That is the exact kind of friendship I refer to for myself. I had a close male friend all through university (we drifted apart when we started working in different cities) and I've had a number of other close friendships with others which lasted years as well. I've had as many male best friends as female during my life. I find it easy to relate to men and there are two that I'm close to at the moment and who I discuss private thoughts with.


Ok, I'm going out on the limb here.... But could it be the difference in our personalities that renders such different results. I'm completely stereotyping here (so I apologize in advance) but being an INTJ you are probably sought out as a very grounded, logical and reasonable friend who gives great detached advice, point of view, etc. In my case people tend to seek my friendship when they are in need of emotional support and are looking to unload emotional stress...

Does anyone have any thoughts on that? could this be the key, to whether a friendship like this can work, as in the initial reason we are attracting that friend of the opposite sex.

[Sinequanon]

Why does the fact that one or both are attracted to the other preclude friendship? That's the part of this discussion I don't understand. Why do people have trouble being friends when there is attraction? Can't you choose NOT to act on the attraction and accept the friendship?
It doesn't preclude friendship, in the sense that you can go out and have a good time, have deep discussions, enjoy one another, but it does preclude it if the question is "Is the foundation of this relationship strictly platonic, forever, and are both parties fine with that?"

In other words, in a straight male-straight male or straight female-straight female friendship, there is never, ever an underlying sexual question (assuming all parties are legitimately straight). That is not an easily replicable situation for an opposite-sex friendship.


See, here we have the classic conundrum of explicit vs. implicit, thought vs. action etc.

In psychology we have this debate all the time: is a person 'cured' when they act normally or when they think normally? So one of you says it's just friends when you act as friends, and the other says it's not just friends when you act as friends, because there's an implicit attraction.

So let me ask a question: do we put people in jail because they thought about harming someone when they were angry? Because they were tempted to steal? No, we do it when they actually harmed someone or stole something. In the legal world, we judge people on their actions, so why all of a sudden is the bar higher in personal lives? It isn't good enough that people reign in their impulses, but now they're at fault because they have these impulses at all?
But we're not talking about actions. Obviously if someone acted on the desire to be "more than friends", then we can judge that specific situation. The question is an abstract one: Can a guy and a girl just be friends? It speaks directly to intent.
I'd be curious to hear if someone has a really close (let's say best) friend of the opposite sex with whom they have a true emotional bond. I'm curious to hear about such friendship that has been in existence for an extended period of time and the friendship line was never crossed by either party.
Yes to the first part but no to the second part. I'd also venture to say that if the line remained uncrossed for the duration of the friendship, the fact that the line was uncrossed remained a regret for one or both parties.

(It sort of speaks to something I told my sister when she was... 15? "You don't have any male friends." She didn't believe me. She recently broke up with her long-time boyfriend, 5 years later, and come to find out, son of a bitch, she didn't have any male friends. ;))

[PortInStorm]

The question is an abstract one: Can a guy and a girl just be friends? It speaks directly to intent.

Disagree that it speak directly to intent. Depends on whether you think friendship is an action or attitude. I guess I'm thinking of that same question asked in a different context: can a male professor just be a teacher to a female student? I think many people would say yes even if he were attracted to the female student- as long as he kept his hands to himself.

[RobinHood]

...
I'd be curious to hear if someone has a really close (let's say best) friend of the opposite sex with whom they have a true emotional bond. I'm curious to hear about such friendship that has been in existence for an extended period of time and the friendship line was never crossed by either party.

I don't seek out men for relationship purposes only, but i can not maintain a stable friendship with any of them without things getting messy. It is hardly ever my doing.

I had a few of these kind of relationships. I am very happy with my gf, we are quite alike on most levels (she's an ETNJ). I have also many male friends for sports, beer, fun and such. However, I have an artistic side to me that I have to share and nourish, and my gf is not into that at all, and neither my male friends, at all. So, I have always had female friends of the artistic temperament, and currently one that I would qualify as very close. She shares with me her world, and she is so happy someone really listens, understand and contribute. What we bring each other that way is fulfilling. So, it's easy for us to set aside sexual attraction and be happy of what we have.

Don't you long for something that your SO or female friends can't provide? Don't you think it's too much to expect from your SO to fulfill all your needs? Just curious.

[Josephine1012]

Don't you long for something that your SO or female friends can't provide? Don't you think it's too much to expect from your SO to fulfill all your needs? Just curious.


I think the issue isn't what I may want. I enjoy people of all sorts, I have several male friends at the moment. At the same time, I've learned not to get too close. From what I learned, it is a ticking time bomb at least it is for me. I'm fully comfortable with being just close friends and not stepping over that boundary, however most of the people I know may say they are but that hasn't been the case.

I've gotten burnt a few times. Some people take rejection as an invitation to be vindictive, they blame me because they misinterpret my friendship as something more....

I realize that i'm not arguing for a popular point here. But my view comes from several very bad experiences.

[Sinequanon]

Disagree that it speak directly to intent. Depends on whether you think friendship is an action or attitude. I guess I'm thinking of that same question asked in a different context: can a male professor just be a teacher to a female student? I think many people would say yes even if he were attracted to the female student- as long as he kept his hands to himself.
This is a poor analogy. "Can a male professor be a teacher to a female student?" Yes, as long as he has no underlying desire to not actually teach her. Most people would say the underlying desire to have sex with your friends might, in some way, undermine the basis of the friendship, don't you think?

It's not that male-female platonic relationships can't ultimately be considered a form of friendship, but they won't be the type of friendship that exist between same-sex, straight friends. They will generally have some sort of "potential relationship in wait" status, regardless of whether it's ever acted on.

[Synamon]

I think the issue isn't what I may want. I enjoy people of all sorts, I have several male friends at the moment. At the same time, I've learned not to get too close. From what I learned, it is a ticking time bomb at least it is for me. I'm fully comfortable with being just close friends and not stepping over that boundary, however most of the people I know may say they are but that hasn't been the case.

Is the issue boundaries then? That's been mentioned in this thread a number of times. Is that the difference between M/F friendships that work and those that don't? In my case it is completely understood by both of us that there will not be a romantic relationship ever.

[RobinHood]

I realize that i'm not arguing for a popular point here. But my view comes from several very bad experiences.

Sorry to hear that. Actually, many people here are expressing the same concerns as you. It's not necessarily easy to create for me either, it takes a certain kind of girl. It's probably more difficult to manage as a woman? especially if you are pretty.

One important thing though... My gf knows well my friend, I don't hide anything. I explain sensibly why the relationship is important to me.

[Josephine1012]

As with any rule there are always exceptions...

[Krazy P]

To answer the question, no.

Biology. It's a word.

Look it up.

[Synamon]

These kind of friendships can't have exceptions. To get to a deep level of intimacy and trust the boundaries have to be clear. Respecting the boundaries is crucial.

So maybe we are back to the question of whether these kind of friendships are not for all types or certainly not for all people.

To answer the question, no.

Biology. It's a word.

Look it up.
Biology? So we are all just animals and a male or female would be helpless to resist the urge to have a physical relationship with any male or female who they liked? Sorry no, choices are made, we are not animals in the sense you mean. Just like in PortInStorm's example of a teacher and student, we can choose not to act on whatever impulses might exist.

[enWTFp]

My gosh, this thread always has 8 people... mm doing something... in it.

[Sliderule]

Biology? So we are all just animals and a male or female would be helpless to resist the urge to have a physical relationship with any male or female who they liked? Sorry no, choices are made, we are not animals in the sense you mean. Just like in PortInStorm's example of a teacher and student, we can choose not to act on whatever impulses might exist.

I think what Krazyp was trying to say was this:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Although not nearly as eloquently as these fine scholars of the human condition.
I couldn't resist.

[Josephine1012]

Biology? So we are all just animals and a male or female would be helpless to resist the urge to have a physical relationship with any male or female who they liked? Sorry no, choices are made, we are not animals in the sense you mean. Just like in PortInStorm's example of a teacher and student, we can choose not to act on whatever impulses might exist.

I don't disagree with that point, however you have to admit that suppressing impulses would change the rules of the friendship a little, compared to a purely platonic same sex friendship.

Which means that at the very least this kind of relationship IS different, which shouldn't imply that it is necessarily inferior.

[LionsPride]

From an outsider perspective, all of the friendship only, platonic relationships I have ever seen consist of person A pining for the person B and the person B is completely and utterly oblivious to the feelings of the person A. Person B then goes and posts in threads like this saying "Person A and I are so completely platonic, they're like my brother (or sister)!" Meanwhile person A suffers in silence. Sometimes, person A commits to the fact that person B will NEVER 'be' with them and they get used to that, but that still means that at some point in the relationship they had more than just friendly feelings for person A.

The only time I can imagine a friendship based relationship between a straight man and women working is when there is some sort of disparity in age. I can imagine two people of significant difference in age maintaining a friendship, as the sexual aspect isn't there for either. But, it could be argued that in large disparity in ages, the older one may feel more like a mentor and to some degree that's not the same sort of friendship as being discussed in this thread.

[ame]

Of course after everything we've discussed I guess I can come to the conclusion that men and women can't be friends because natural instinct for sex is too strong.
And by this same token I guess we can also conclude that men can't be friends with each other either because the competition instinct in men can't be overlooked. So...men shouldn't engage in friendships with either sex because due to testosterone he will try to sleep with the girl and engage in violent conflict with the guy.
We're all a bunch of cavemen and cavewomen, yes?

[universalis]

No, unless you gay.

[alphawolf]

And by this same token I guess we can also conclude that men can't be friends with each other either because the competition instinct in men can't be overlooked.

Two straight men friends sit in a hotel room, watch a football game, and down a 12 pack of beer. What are they competing for?

A man and a woman sit in a hotel room, watch a movie, and down a bottle of wine. One of them is secretly wishing to be in bed with the other, unless they are both gay. Hmm, interesting, did anybody ever know of a lesbian and a gay man who were good friends?

[PortInStorm]

This is a poor analogy. "Can a male professor be a teacher to a female student?" Yes, as long as he has no underlying desire to not actually teach her. Most people would say the underlying desire to have sex with your friends might, in some way, undermine the basis of the friendship, don't you think?

It's not that male-female platonic relationships can't ultimately be considered a form of friendship, but they won't be the type of friendship that exist between same-sex, straight friends. They will generally have some sort of "potential relationship in wait" status, regardless of whether it's ever acted on.
Yes, certainly we agree there. It is different than a single-sex friendship.

But as to the professor analogy: seriously, you don't think a professor could still be a teacher to a female student if he was attracted to her? I think that contradicts the experience of several thousands of male university professors who are attracted to at LEAST one young hot female EACH YEAR. And I think most people would say he taught her the material, and that his professional abilities were not limited by his attraction to her. I think if you asked onlookers if he could be her teacher, they'd say "Yes, he could teach her even if he were attracted to her". Therefore, I don't think the question "Can a guy and girl be just friends" implies intent but action.
Sorry if it was a bad anology- it was a spur of the moment thing.

Just one more itty misunderstanding- just because the friendship is different does not in any way mean that it is a 'relationship in waiting' or I would jump his bones if I just got a chance. Attraction or even sparks between male/female friends (and often there isn't even that) doesn't mean I secretly want to have sex with them.

[universalis]

Bad analogy you right.

Teaching is in the education domain. Friendship and romantic interest are in the overlapping sets in the interpersonal domain.

Now, here is the problem. X likes Y romantically. Y does not reciprocate. Therefore needs are not being met in the relationship, hence it "does not work". You can suppress it if you want and its technically possible but why waste your time.

I just view relationships always need to be win-win. Someone suffering in silence is retarded and pathetic.

[PortInStorm]

Alright, I'll try to be nice here. I shouldn't even address your first statement as it should be self-evident that, in the professor example, the whole issue is that the professional and the interpersonal realms have the potential to intersect.

Secondly, no person can fulfill the entirety of someone else's needs. We look to others to help fill those needs of various kinds, so even if it is the case that I feel an attraction to a male friend and he does not, it is not a no win situation. I gain that man's ideas, access to another human's feelings, experiences, knowledge. That is enough for me. Even though I may be attracted to that friend, I am not looking for sexual fulfillment from him- so no expectations are being violated, no time is wasted. Therefore I am fulfilled in the ways I sought from him. I do not 'suffer in silence'- I choose to gain from him in non-sexual ways.

Perhaps you need to broaden your perspective of what humans have to offer one another.

P.S.- Using the word 'retarded' betrays a certain ignorance all its own.

[Josephine1012]

Ok, I think I think that because this thread got so bloated we're missing the original question: "Can men and women JUST be good friends"

I think that is the question they are trying to address. I doubt that it means that you have to stay away from all members of opposite sex unless you're dating him. But it is nearly stating that such "friendship" carries it's own set of complications. These complications are not evident in same sex friendship.

And as it was admitted earlier, for a friendship to remain friendship both parties have to maintain a set of boundaries (this isn't an issue in the same sex friendship).

You are very lucky if you can put the feelings of rejection aside and still benefit from the interaction, however you are also relying on the other party to do the same to keep things from getting ugly. And that, my friend, is out of your hands.

[ame]

No, unless you gay.
No, you gay.

*Refer to my comment above.
Two straight men friends sit in a hotel room, watch a football game, and down a 12 pack of beer. What are they competing for?
Maybe they support different sides. One wants 7 beers because he thinks he deserves it. One wants to sit on the left side of the sofa and the other does too.
Maybe later on they'll have to decide who gets the bed if they roughed it, or who sleeps on the sofa. After all, they're not going to sleep in the same bed if they both like to sleep naked. I mean, don't we all have boundaries we keep in healthy relationships or simply for our own personal comfort.
So you mean to say you have no boundaries in your relationships with other men?

[universalis]

No, you gay.

*Refer to my comment above.


Odd. That seems hostile almost :). Can't possibly think why though.

[alphawolf]

Maybe they support different sides. One wants 7 beers because he thinks he deserves it. One wants to sit on the left side of the sofa and the other does too.
Maybe later on they'll have to decide who gets the bed if they roughed it, or who sleeps on the sofa. After all, they're not going to sleep in the same bed if they both like to sleep naked. I mean, don't we all have boundaries we keep in healthy relationships or simply for our own personal comfort.
So you mean to say you have no boundaries in your relationships with other men?

Men who are good friends never, ever fight over small stuff like that. Men who are good friends would never, ever argue over a girl, either. The bond of brotherhood runs far deeper than any new woman could break. If she were a problem, they'd both agree to forget her and find other women. Lived it, many times...

[Josephine1012]

Men who are good friends never, ever fight over small stuff like that. Men who are good friends would never, ever argue over a girl, either. The bond of brotherhood runs far deeper than any new woman could break. If she were a problem, they'd both agree to forget her and find other women. Lived it, many times...

Hehe, AS IF!!!!

But regardless, we're talking about a friendship between 2 parties, not about complications that may or may not be caused by a third party.

As a general rule 2 men doing tasks where they see the other person as a comrade and associate and not an opponent can get along quite nicely.

But keep in mind that a sense of competition isn't necessarily reserved for just same sex friendships. You can compete with the member of the opposite sex too. So being competitive is a "problem" across the board. Male/female friendships have that extra variable of sexual attraction. That is the matter at hand.

[Sinequanon]

Yes, certainly we agree there. It is different than a single-sex friendship.

But as to the professor analogy: seriously, you don't think a professor could still be a teacher to a female student if he was attracted to her? I think that contradicts the experience of several thousands of male university professors who are attracted to at LEAST one young hot female EACH YEAR. And I think most people would say he taught her the material, and that his professional abilities were not limited by his attraction to her. I think if you asked onlookers if he could be her teacher, they'd say "Yes, he could teach her even if he were attracted to her". Therefore, I don't think the question "Can a guy and girl be just friends" implies intent but action.
Sorry if it was a bad anology- it was a spur of the moment thing.

Just one more itty misunderstanding- just because the friendship is different does not in any way mean that it is a 'relationship in waiting' or I would jump his bones if I just got a chance. Attraction or even sparks between male/female friends (and often there isn't even that) doesn't mean I secretly want to have sex with them.
I think you misunderstood me. The reason it's a bad analogy is that a sexual tension doesn't preclude the possibility of tutelage. A teacher can teach a student and be sexually or asexually attracted to that person.

Most people would say, however, that a sexual attraction does, fundamentally, undermine a platonic friendship (some people would say, y'know, by definition). If that sexual attraction is both hidden and ever-present in one or both mates, is there really, foundationally, a friendship?

Thus, the correct analogy would be can there be a Teacher<->Student relationship if either the student has no true desire to learn, or the teacher has no true desire to teach? The idea being that there is some fundamental desire that would undermine the actual precepts of the relationship.

To put it more crudely, if you're okay with your friends having a latent or expressed desire to fuck you, then yes, men and women can certainly be friends. If that sort of thing (understandably) makes you uncomfortable, then you might need to re-assess what the relationship is. Maybe call it "Friendship 2.0". How Gen Y of me.

No, you gay.

*Refer to my comment above.

Maybe they support different sides. One wants 7 beers because he thinks he deserves it. One wants to sit on the left side of the sofa and the other does too.
Maybe later on they'll have to decide who gets the bed if they roughed it, or who sleeps on the sofa. After all, they're not going to sleep in the same bed if they both like to sleep naked. I mean, don't we all have boundaries we keep in healthy relationships or simply for our own personal comfort.
So you mean to say you have no boundaries in your relationships with other men?

Does competition preclude friendship? That's a completely separate argument.

[Josephine1012]

I think you misunderstood me. The reason it's a bad analogy is that a sexual tension doesn't preclude the possibility of tutelage. A teacher can teach a student and be sexually or asexually attracted to that person.

Most people would say, however, that a sexual attraction does, fundamentally, undermine a platonic friendship (some people would say, y'know, by definition). If that sexual attraction is both hidden and ever-present in one or both mates, is there really, foundationally, a friendship?

Thus, the correct analogy would be can there be a Teacher<->Student relationship if either the student has no true desire to learn, or the teacher has no true desire to teach? The idea being that there is some fundamental desire that would undermine the actual precepts of the relationship.

To put it more crudely, if you're okay with your friends having a latent or expressed desire to fuck you, then yes, men and women can certainly be friends. If that sort of thing (understandably) makes you uncomfortable, then you might need to re-assess what the relationship is. Maybe call it "Friendship 2.0". How Gen Y of me.



Does competition preclude friendship? That's a completely separate argument.

Not that you need my affirmations, but your point of view sums up my point of view quite nicely :thumbsup:

[Synamon]

I think you misunderstood me. The reason it's a bad analogy is that a sexual tension doesn't preclude the possibility of tutelage. A teacher can teach a student and be sexually or asexually attracted to that person.

Most people would say, however, that a sexual attraction does, fundamentally, undermine a platonic friendship (some people would say, y'know, by definition). If that sexual attraction is both hidden and ever-present in one or both mates, is there really, foundationally, a friendship?

Some people may say that sexual attraction does undermine a platonic friendship, many in this thread in fact. I'm saying it doesn't. I assume PortInStorm is saying it doesn't either. It is a difference of opinion. You are entitled to yours, just as we are entitled to ours.

If a professor can reign in their sexual attraction for a student then a man or woman can reign in the same attraction for a friend. There is nothing wrong with the analogy. We make choices, we have the ability to do that. Clearly if you do not think you can control your sexual urges you should stay far away from the opposite sex.

[Sinequanon]

Some people may say that sexual attraction does undermine a platonic friendship, many in this thread in fact. I'm saying it doesn't. I assume PortInStorm is saying it doesn't either. It is a difference of opinion. You are entitled to yours, just as we are entitled to ours.

If a professor can reign in their sexual attraction for a student then a man or woman can reign in the same attraction for a friend. There is nothing wrong with the analogy. We make choices, we have the ability to do that. Clearly if you do not think you can control your sexual urges you should stay far away from the opposite sex.
I don't see how you guys keep going back to this analogy. It simply doesn't work. A professor can teach a student because the relationship of teaching has nothing to do with sexual attraction. At best, a sexual tension could run parallel to the relationship of teacher. For instance, a student and teacher could actually be in a relationship. Now that that is going on, they might then experience problems with the parallel relationship of teacher-student. A similar relationship could exist between coworkers. Being coworkers doesn't preclude the ability for them to date. Those two relationships could exist in parallel. That doesn't mean that the relationship at home couldn't ultimately affect the one at work positively or negatively. This is a question, however, of ethics, not one of pure logic.

A platonic friendship is one in which neither party is presumably trying to be in a romantic relationship with the other person. It is actually primarily based on this defining characteristic. If either person is, in their heart of hearts, not really holding true to this, then it is not a true platonic relationship. A romantic relationship and a platonic friendship between the same parties are mutually exclusive. A teacher-student who are also romatically involved is not a mutually exclusive pairing. A more accurate example would be like being in a romantic relationship where one partner doesn't really love the other. Yes, they may carry on as if they were married, but for the most fundamental purpose, they are not, and the relationship will eventually come to a head because of it.

edit: Oh, and I specifically accounted for the situation you raised. If either party understands the other's desire, has rejected it and they're okay with that, then of course they can be friends. It doesn't change the fact that the desire was present in the friendship (it might have been the inciting incident) at some point. Some people (not myself but it's a legitimate point) would argue that if that was ever present in a relationship, it could not be a true friendship. Although, I kind of could see the argument between same-sex friendships. If one of my male friends came on to me, it would probably cause me to reassess whether or not we'd ever truly been friends.

[ame]

Men who are good friends never, ever fight over small stuff like that. Men who are good friends would never, ever argue over a girl, either. The bond of brotherhood runs far deeper than any new woman could break. If she were a problem, they'd both agree to forget her and find other women. Lived it, many times...
Alphawolf you break my heart. You truly do. Where does this leave me?

Does competition preclude friendship? That's a completely separate argument.
I happen to believe the left side of the sofa integral to this issue.

[Synamon]

A platonic friendship is one in which neither party is presumably trying to be in a romantic relationship with the other person.
Yes. I'm saying that they both chose a platonic friendship. Sexual attraction, if it exists, becomes a non issue.
edit: Oh, and I specifically accounted for the situation you raised. If either party understands the other's desire, has rejected it and they're okay with that, then of course they can be friends. It doesn't change the fact that the desire was present in the friendship (it might have been the inciting incident) at some point.
That was exactly the point I was making. Whatever attraction is present does not preclude the ability to be friends.

From the discussion in this thread apparently many people can't accept the above is possible. Anything you don't think is possible for yourself isn't. Hopefully this thread has helped a few people to decide if it is or isn't possible for them. I still stand by my first answer in this thread:
Depends on the guy and the girl. I have many platonic male friends. Some people have none.

[Sinequanon]

Yes. I'm saying that they both chose a platonic friendship. Sexual attraction, if it exists, becomes a non issue.

That was exactly the point I was making. Whatever attraction is present does not preclude the ability to be friends.

From the discussion in this thread apparently many people can't accept the above is possible. Anything you don't think is possible for yourself isn't. Hopefully this thread has helped a few people to decide if it is or isn't possible for them. I still stand by my first answer in this thread:
Then I guess my point is that if the friendship remains unexamined in this regard then I would hold that it most likely isn't truly platonic. But if it is examined, then it certainly could be.

[Webweasel]

Maybe they support different sides. One wants 7 beers because he thinks he deserves it. One wants to sit on the left side of the sofa and the other does too.
Maybe later on they'll have to decide who gets the bed if they roughed it, or who sleeps on the sofa. After all, they're not going to sleep in the same bed if they both like to sleep naked.


Ame but I have several good friends I have known for over 15 years and have a close relationship with, we respect each other and that just wouldn't happen.

However the stereotype you have branded men with does exist but it is still just a stereotype.

[Released]

I still maintain it's possible, that despite emotional or sexual attraction does not have to develop between friends, or that these forms of attraction are necessary precursors to a solid and close male-female friendship.

[ssrprotege]

Sure, I think a guy and a girl can be friends, not romantic friends. I have some female friends that I go along pretty well. I don't think when establishing a friendship, gender shouldn't be a matter at all. As long as they fit into my ideals, everyone is welcome.

[PortInStorm]

A romantic relationship and a platonic friendship between the same parties are mutually exclusive .

Yes, as I was reading the thread, this was exactly where I thought we differed. I do not think attraction and platonic friendship are mutually exclusive- relationships are intricately layered with all kinds of motivations. For instance, many women (ex. Celine Dion, Barbara Streisand) say that they passionately love their partners, obviously have sex with them, but feel cared for in the way a daughter feels cared for by a father. In the same way, I can feel some attraction to a man while at the same time consider him a platonic friend (other times I feel little to no attraction to a man, and more platonic feelings). It would be very nice to consider relationships black and white, but the more we experience them, the more we realize it isn't so.

[ElstonGunn]

After thinking about it some more, I'm changing my answer to a "no." My reasoning being that I'm a guy, which of course means that I have no control over my basest impulses and desires, not to mention that I hit on every girl I see, since, regardless of whether or not I'm attracted to them, I want to date and/or sleep with them all. Women really have no value to me (or any other man) aside from being sexual objects. It probably works the same way for women, too, but it's hard to tell since the truth/stereotype is that women are inherently and unquestionably less sex-crazed and purer than men are, which might mean that they're dumb and naive enough to think that men are interested in friendship, even though they're actually just interested in knocking boots. And since I'm like this (and I saw some other guy doing it once), that of course means that everyone else is as well-- I speak for everyone. It's airtight. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

[Synamon]

:laugh: You devil Elston.

[ame]

After thinking about it some more, I'm changing my answer to a "no." My reasoning being that I'm a guy, which of course means that I have no control over my basest impulses and desires, not to mention that I hit on every girl I see, since, regardless of whether or not I'm attracted to them, I want to date and/or sleep with them all. Women really have no value to me (or any other man) aside from being sexual objects. It probably works the same way for women, too, but it's hard to tell since the truth/stereotype is that women are inherently and unquestionably less sex-crazed and purer than men are, which might mean that they're dumb and naive enough to think that men are interested in friendship, even though they're actually just interested in knocking boots. And since I'm like this (and I saw some other guy doing it once), that of course means that everyone else is as well-- I speak for everyone. It's airtight. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
Oh Elston. You're after my very own heart.

[PortInStorm]

Didn't you hear him? He's not after your heart, he's after... well, you know ;).

[ame]

Didn't you hear him? He's not after your heart, he's after... well, you know ;).
Hardly.
The understanding between us is priceless.

[ElstonGunn]

Didn't you hear him? He's not after your heart, he's after... well, you know ;).

Not just me. And not just hers. Every man is after every woman's "you know."

[Synamon]

*sniff*

I thought all of you just wanted me for my mind.

The women probably want me too. And the guys probably want you Elston, deep, deep down.

[ame]

No-one has said anything about this question yet.
Who's gonna get the left side of the sofa?

[ssrprotege]

After thinking about it some more, I'm changing my answer to a "no." My reasoning being that I'm a guy, which of course means that I have no control over my basest impulses and desires, not to mention that I hit on every girl I see, since, regardless of whether or not I'm attracted to them, I want to date and/or sleep with them all. Women really have no value to me (or any other man) aside from being sexual objects. It probably works the same way for women, too, but it's hard to tell since the truth/stereotype is that women are inherently and unquestionably less sex-crazed and purer than men are, which might mean that they're dumb and naive enough to think that men are interested in friendship, even though they're actually just interested in knocking boots. And since I'm like this (and I saw some other guy doing it once), that of course means that everyone else is as well-- I speak for everyone. It's airtight. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

:laugh: Probably one of the greatest responses to this thread.

I can imagine if I say this to my ESFJ friend, she will be deeply, deeply offended by this.

[Sinequanon]

Yes, as I was reading the thread, this was exactly where I thought we differed. I do not think attraction and platonic friendship are mutually exclusive- relationships are intricately layered with all kinds of motivations. For instance, many women (ex. Celine Dion, Barbara Streisand) say that they passionately love their partners, obviously have sex with them, but feel cared for in the way a daughter feels cared for by a father. In the same way, I can feel some attraction to a man while at the same time consider him a platonic friend (other times I feel little to no attraction to a man, and more platonic feelings). It would be very nice to consider relationships black and white, but the more we experience them, the more we realize it isn't so.
I didn't say attraction and platonic friendship are mutually exclusive. Lots of strawmanning going on in this thread (Hi, Elston).

[PortInStorm]

No problem, we disagree on that too! I'm spent- you?












I can see this will make it into the "that's what she said" thread

[Ezion]

I'm going to agree with just about everyone else and say that a platonic relationship is possible, but that in most friendships there will always be a small level of underlying sexual tension. It may not be much or obvious, and may never appear, but it's there anyway.

[Rohsiph]

No-one has said anything about this question yet.
Who's gonna get the left side of the sofa?

The dragon statue. We'll have it super-glued to the cushion, and then staple the cushion to the bigger, foundational "sofa" furniture piece.

[blueback]

...a platonic relationship is possible, but that in most friendships there will always be a small level of underlying sexual tension. It may...never appear, but it's there anyway.
He he, that's pretty convenient for your theory. Logically that's equivalent to saying that gay people really want to be straight even if they never show any signs of wanting to be straight.

Sometimes things aren't simple.

[Ezion]

He he, that's pretty convenient for your theory. Logically that's equivalent to saying that gay people really want to be straight even if they never show any signs of wanting to be straight.


Logically it's more equivalent to saying that some gay men feel slight attractions to straight females, or that some straight males feel slight attractions to other males.

The human body doesn't need the mind's consent to feel phyiscally attracted, and it obviously doesn't report all of its activities to your mind. We can still conclude that our bodies are indeed undergoing millions of chemical reactions, despite the fact we aren't personally aware of them.

In addition, I didn't include any absolutes in my post for a reason, as I don't have any research to back it up. Merely speculation on my part, as is a large portion of the content on these boards.

[blueback]

I was just pointing out that when your theory includes the phrase "it's there even though it's never measurable" you might be cutting yourself too much slack.

[Solaris]

Ok, I don't promise I haven't said this already. I thought I had posted here, but apparently not. Maybe I misplaced the post...

Anyway, I have historically had mostly male friends. Women and I just don't seem to be able to have lasting friendships, with one or two exceptions. I think that it's probably about half and half for the number in which there was some sort of underlying attraction on one or both sides versus those with none. However, what individuals do with that is up to them. You can choose to maintain the friendship, move it to the next level, or leave the situation entirely. What you usually cannot control is the attraction, that's pretty much impossible to erase I've learned.

[blueback]

What you usually cannot control is the attraction
I agree. Attraction is not a choice.

[enfpchick]

Ahhhhhhhhh! One of my guy friends asked me out!
I was so taken aback because I thought that we were just friends. I had no choice but to turn him down gently.

[ElstonGunn]

I had no choice but to turn him down gently.

Sort of like beating someone to death gently.

[Aeroscoper]

So the answer is....?

It's possible, but not probable?

[Vagrant]

One of my best friends is female... but that's because I'm not completely attracted to her, and due to extenuating circumstances, it would never happen anyway.

[Synamon]

So the answer is....?

It's possible, but not probable?

What I got from this discussion is that it works for some people and not for others. Pretty much like anything else in life.

It does appear that more guys have trouble with the concept than women though.

[LionsPride]

I think most of the posts are in agreement, depending on how they defined 'just friends'.

I assumed 'just friends' implied a completely platonic friendship where neither party feels anything, undercurrent or otherwise, towards the other that would not be found in a same sex friendship of two heterosexual people. In that case, I do not think it's possible to be 'just friends' between a man and woman. Just because the undercurrent is never expressed or acted on, doesn't mean you are just friends, not in the same way a single sex friendship between straight people would be. Many of the advocates of platonic friendships in this thread even admit that undercurrents may exist but not expressing them is possible. I agree with this, but I hardly call that 'two people who are just friends' based on the definition above.

Of course, you could define 'just friends' as people who have not become more than friends, even though undercurrents might be present. In that definition, opposite sex 'just friends' relationships are possible.

I add that the above comments refer only to close friendships and not business friends or casual acquaintances where the dynamic is very different.

[Aeroscoper]

What I got from this discussion is that it works for some people and not for others. Pretty much like anything else in life.

It does appear that more guys have trouble with the concept than women though.

Interesting, since males would be required in such relationships.

Something to ponder, let's say most guys think it's not possible for arguments sake, and most females think it is, what would that say about the topic?

For example, if I have a very close female friend, and I say that there's an underlying sexual tension, yet she says there isn't, who's right?

[le Duc]

For example, if I have a very close female friend, and I say that there's an underlying sexual tension, yet she says there isn't, who's right?

To an extent, you're both right, as it's a matter of perspective and interpretation. Sexual tension doesn't exist on its own: it is the product of the mind and imagination (although this is not to say it's not real).

[Josephine1012]

Ok, i guess I have another question. What usually holds any friendship together? Is it shared activities? I guess if we can identify that we can perhaps answer this question more empirically.

[Synamon]

Perhaps I can respond to the claim that the analogy was poor, since I understood it. Often things do not translate well in text. Disclaimer: this is 100% my own opinion and may not reflect how PortInStorm intended the analogy to be taken.

My take on it was that PortInStorm suggested that if a male teacher could choose not act on sexual attraction towards a female student that was similar to a male or female friend choosing not to act on sexual attraction towards an opposite sex friend. Both are relationships to some extent and yes teacher/student is not the exact same as a friendship but that's why it was an analogy. The commonality was interaction and closeness and choosing not to act on sexual attraction. She did admit that it may not have been the best of analogies, but it should have gotten the point that thoughts are not the same as actions across just fine.

That was how I interpreted it anyway, clearly you did not.

[Sinequanon]

Perhaps I can respond to the claim that the analogy was poor, since I understood it. Often things do not translate well in text. Disclaimer: this is 100% my own opinion and may not reflect how PortInStorm intended the analogy to be taken.

My take on it was that PortInStorm suggested that if a male teacher could choose not act on sexual attraction towards a female student that was similar to a male or female friend choosing not to act on sexual attraction towards an opposite sex friend. Both are relationships to some extent and yes teacher/student is not the exact same as a friendship but that's why it was an analogy. The commonality was interaction and closeness and choosing not to act on sexual attraction. She did admit that it may not have been the best of analogies, but it should have gotten the point that thoughts are not the same as actions across just fine.

That was how I interpreted it anyway, clearly you did not.
Again my argument was twofold: First, intention in forging the relationship matters. Two people who (tacitly) agree to have a friendship are entering into a social contract that precludes sexual action. If a person has the intention of acting in a sexual manner it would call into question the foundation of the relationship (i.e. was it ever/always a friendship?). Secondly, a teacher-student relationship isn't necessarily one of these sorts of relationships. A teacher is only a teacher insofar as he intends to teach a student. If he is intending to also have sex with the student, it doesn't have to interfere with the ability to teach the student. A teacher would be behaving in a parallel "non-platonic" way if he or she never truly intended to teach their student. A sexual relationship between them is not automatically destructive to the teacher-student relationship (although obviously through experience we know it is a major complicating factor).

Her (I'm taking from your post) argument was that a teacher's desire to have sex with the student but an ability to not act on it was the same as a person having sexual desire for their friend but not acting on it. I disagree because the basis of a platonic friendship is that sexual desire should be excluded. A friendship + sexual desire certainly can be a friendship, but it's only a true relationship if both sides acknowledge and deal with the sexual tension; otherwise one party is not being forthright and has undermined the relationship at its base. Finally, in an exceedingly large amount of male-female friendships (i.e. most but not all) this sexual tension exists between one or both parties but is unacknowledged. So my argument is that examination of the natures of these relationships is necessary to legitimize them.

[PortInStorm]

You can be insulted if you wish- I'm just angry as well as frustrated that we keep missing each other's arguments, so I'll try again.

For the record, here are the posts I've made thus far on the thread before the mud-slinging. Of all of them (7), 5 are arguments not relating to the anology I made. So as to the charge that all I'm doing is appealing to the crowd and making poor anologies, not true.

See, here we have the classic conundrum of explicit vs. implicit, thought vs. action etc.

In psychology we have this debate all the time: is a person 'cured' when they act normally or when they think normally? So one of you says it's just friends when you act as friends, and the other says it's not just friends when you act as friends, because there's an implicit attraction.

So let me ask a question: do we put people in jail because they thought about harming someone when they were angry? Because they were tempted to steal? No, we do it when they actually harmed someone or stole something. In the legal world, we judge people on their actions, so why all of a sudden is the bar higher in personal lives? It isn't good enough that people reign in their impulses, but now they're at fault because they have these impulses at all?

Disagree that it speak directly to intent. Depends on whether you think friendship is an action or attitude. I guess I'm thinking of that same question asked in a different context: can a male professor just be a teacher to a female student? I think many people would say yes even if he were attracted to the female student- as long as he kept his hands to himself.

Yes, certainly we agree there. It is different than a single-sex friendship.

But as to the professor analogy: seriously, you don't think a professor could still be a teacher to a female student if he was attracted to her? I think that contradicts the experience of several thousands of male university professors who are attracted to at LEAST one young hot female EACH YEAR. And I think most people would say he taught her the material, and that his professional abilities were not limited by his attraction to her. I think if you asked onlookers if he could be her teacher, they'd say "Yes, he could teach her even if he were attracted to her". Therefore, I don't think the question "Can a guy and girl be just friends" implies intent but action.
Sorry if it was a bad anology- it was a spur of the moment thing.

Just one more itty misunderstanding- just because the friendship is different does not in any way mean that it is a 'relationship in waiting' or I would jump his bones if I just got a chance. Attraction or even sparks between male/female friends (and often there isn't even that) doesn't mean I secretly want to have sex with them.

Alright, I'll try to be nice here. I shouldn't even address your first statement as it should be self-evident that, in the professor example, the whole issue is that the professional and the interpersonal realms have the potential to intersect.

Secondly, no person can fulfill the entirety of someone else's needs. We look to others to help fill those needs of various kinds, so even if it is the case that I feel an attraction to a male friend and he does not, it is not a no win situation. I gain that man's ideas, access to another human's feelings, experiences, knowledge. That is enough for me. Even though I may be attracted to that friend, I am not looking for sexual fulfillment from him- so no expectations are being violated, no time is wasted. Therefore I am fulfilled in the ways I sought from him. I do not 'suffer in silence'- I choose to gain from him in non-sexual ways.

Perhaps you need to broaden your perspective of what humans have to offer one another.

P.S.- Using the word 'retarded' betrays a certain ignorance all its own.

Yes, as I was reading the thread, this was exactly where I thought we differed. I do not think attraction and platonic friendship are mutually exclusive- relationships are intricately layered with all kinds of motivations. For instance, many women (ex. Celine Dion, Barbara Streisand) say that they passionately love their partners, obviously have sex with them, but feel cared for in the way a daughter feels cared for by a father. In the same way, I can feel some attraction to a man while at the same time consider him a platonic friend (other times I feel little to no attraction to a man, and more platonic feelings). It would be very nice to consider relationships black and white, but the more we experience them, the more we realize it isn't so.

Didn't you hear him? He's not after your heart, he's after... well, you know ;).

No problem, we disagree on that too! I'm spent- you? I can see this will make it into the "that's what she said" thread


Alright, down to the arguments. You made 2 points, you said.

1. Intention matters in platonic relationships. Here we disagree, I believe that action counts. I think that's something Jo and LionsPride were alluding to- do we define relationships by intent or by action? I define mine by action, you by intent. Fine.

2. As far as I gather, your take is that sexual attraction would not necessarily infere with teaching, but it would interfere with relationships. The problem here is that you're defining one relationship (the teacher) by its action (he/she is still actively teaching), while defining the other (the opposite sex friendship) by intent. That's an differential application of principles. So if we say relationships are defined by action, then both professors and opposite-sex friends are fine with underlying sexual tension. If we say relationships are defined by intent, then both the opposite-sex friendship and the professor are... screwed, shall we say?

Oh, and there was a third argument in there re: full disclosure between friends, such that unrevealed sexual tension of one partner voids the friendship. I know lots and lots of friendships that don't feature full disclosure of any kind- they aren't destroyed by it.


And Syn had my original intent correct for the anology. Thanks!

[RobinHood]

I think most of the posts are in agreement, depending on how they defined 'just friends'.

I assumed 'just friends' implied a completely platonic friendship where neither party feels anything, undercurrent or otherwise, towards the other that would not be found in a same sex friendship of two heterosexual people. In that case, I do not think it's possible to be 'just friends' between a man and woman. (...)

Did you mean that you don't think it's possible for you to be just friends with a woman?

[Lupin]

Attraction to others (male) is surely sub-consciously sexual or maternal....or dare I say it, possibly both? Have tried and failed to be friends with men (other than gay men) and it's usually (read always) an erroneous voyage. Just my opinion through experience and, for obvious reasons, a great shame.

[Tophsquatch]

As far as I'm concerned...

Romantic relationships = Frienship+No Rival Romantic Interests+Physical Attraction+Soul Attraction+Long Term Positive Relational Possibility (i.e. Compatibility+Time)

If you have any of those factors in addition to friendship, but not all of them, it may be wise to break off the relationship before you get your heart broken because your going to end up frustrated. Having sex in such relationships makes it worse in the long term for both of you because the chemicals in the brain that respond to such stimuli further connect you emotionally whether you wanted to be or not.

[radames]

Ahhhhhhhhh! One of my guy friends asked me out!
I was so taken aback because I thought that we were just friends. I had no choice but to turn him down gently.

I could almost hear the laugh in your voice. You loved having that power didn't you? Kind of like the kid with the magnifying glass. ;)

[Sinequanon]

Alright, down to the arguments. You made 2 points, you said.

1. Intention matters in platonic relationships. Here we disagree, I believe that action counts. I think that's something Jo and LionsPride were alluding to- do we define relationships by intent or by action? I define mine by action, you by intent. Fine.
Okay...

2. As far as I gather, your take is that sexual attraction would not necessarily interfere with teaching, but it would interfere with relationships.
It would interfere with platonic relationships. A teacher-student relationship doesn't have to be platonic. A platonic friendship (I hate to be tautological) does.
The problem here is that you're defining one relationship (the teacher) by its action (he/she is still actively teaching), while defining the other (the opposite sex friendship) by intent.
Incorrect. I said a friendship is not a "true" friendship if one or both people in the relationship have no interest in maintaining a platonic relationship. That speaks to intent. I said the true analog is if a teacher has no interest in actually teaching his or her student (or, on the other side, if the student has no interest in actually learning). That speaks to intent as well. I don't know how you made the leap you just made. I define a teacher-student relationship and a platonic friendship both by intent.

Let me ask you this- a girl is head-over-heels in love for a guy, but he is only interested in marrying her so that he can get his green card and stay in the country. Valid marriage? What if she knows that he doesn't really love her, but is willing to get married anyway? What if he lies to her and strings her along? Is the relationship validated at a later point in time if, in spite of himself, he falls in love with her?
So if we say relationships are defined by action, then both professors and opposite-sex friends are fine with underlying sexual tension. If we say relationships are defined by intent, then both the opposite-sex friendship and the professor are... screwed, shall we say?
Again you seem to be making this leap that a sexual tension or action would somehow necessarily (I've been using that word intentionally) disrupt a student-teacher relationship. It doesn't. Sexual action would certainly necessarily destroy a platonic friendship. Sexual intention would certainly undermine it.

Oh, and there was a third argument in there re: full disclosure between friends, such that unrevealed sexual tension of one partner voids the friendship. I know lots and lots of friendships that don't feature full disclosure of any kind- they aren't destroyed by it.
Yet, to pull anecdotal evidence for just a second, enfpchick just testified that one of her "friends" asked her out recently. If one of your "friends" did that, would you have to question what the entire basis of your friendship was? I'm mostly going for the examined life (in terms of relationships, friendships, oneself, others) being more toward the maximal "good". Would you disagree with that?

[PortInStorm]

Well, I guess we can agree there- I'm all for examination.

I'm honestly not trying to be contrary, I just honestly take things more at face value in most circumstances. I mean, if the intention is EVIL, then I care. But other than that, I realize most people don't have control over their feelings.

So in ENFPchick's case, if I was still having a good time talking with the guy or hanging out, his feelings for me wouldn't cause me to reject him, therefore the relationship would be intact. Would that cause me to think about the relationship in a new way? Yes, but that would not ruin the relationship because I consider it to be defined by action ie. we would still hang out etc.

In the citizenship case, I would accept the relationship if it were of benefit to me, regardless of his intent, unless it was to harm me. If he is benefiting me (obviously he's getting benefit too), in the way I expected him to, then does it matter whether he loves me, loves someone else too, loves someone else instead, is using me?

[Sere]

Yes they can be friends if neither of the two are attracted to each other, which is quite challenging. It's up to the person to establish friendship and at the same time create a good amount of distance in order to maintain what you're expecting out of such a relationship.

However, if the question is based on whether a guy and girl can be 'close' friends, my answer would be no. As I said, it takes time to establish that kind of vibe between members of the opposite gender. In other words, you really have to size up to your friend's real intentions, make sure you're not giving him (or her, in the case of males), the wrong signals... when you don't want anything to happen more than a genuine friendship, he or she will feel the cold shoulder. That's the only way I can ever be close friends with a guy, which I'm not and I don't think I will and ever could. I'll be partial with a person I can really be that close to, which is reserved for the future.

Therefore, with whom can one establish a genuine friendship? In my case, only with a guy I don't get close to. Crossing the line which divides a moderate distance and closeness on the other side, it is likely to spark other factors, regardless of whether they can be controlled or not.

[Smoke n Mirrors]

I would say that in theory it should be possible. It's certainly possible if you don't get particularly close.

I seem to have this really annoying tendency to at least think I have a crush on any guy I get within ten feet of who treats me like a human being, and it complicates my ability to be "just friends" with them, especially if they pay a lot of attention to me and talk to me and stuff. (If they don't pay much attention to me, I usually forget about them for a while.)

Man, that whole post makes me sound really... I dunno. I don't like it. Oh, well.

[hullolife]

I loved When Harry Met Sally. And that's all I can currently contribute... sigh :D

[Fanowene]

Hmmm... At the moment I'm wondering if it is possible for me to differentiate between romantic attraction and the connection created by being friends. Somehow I wonder if for me there needs to be a critical point where the borders are set: "No we're not going to be dating." and then we can become friends? And if that critical point doesn't happen and it gets to uncomfortable for me, I look for a way to get out of the situation.

I also wonder if my mind can play tricks on me when it comes to that point. It seems like it did that on Sunday evening (I wrote an email that in hindsight could be translated to mean just about the opposite of what it said in words.). It resolved the situation to near full satisfaction, though (for me).

[cheewagacheewag]

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?
Do you believe one of them have some underlying motif? or do these type of friendships lead to something more down the line?

All personal examples welcome!

Yes, but only if there is no sexual tension or sexual interest. For example, the only TRUE female friend I have now is a lesbian friend that I used to work with.

I am a strong believer in the ladder theory. I do have other female friends, but if they asked me to sleep with them then I wouldn't hesitate.

[brainysmurf]

Have any of you read about The Ladder Theory? If not, just Google it. I'm not saying I buy it. I just thought it was something the individuals posting on this thread might be interested in. However, I do think it is good for a few laughs (if you're not overly sensitive) and some of it (based on my experience) does ring true.

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Is actually quite an interesting theory.

I'm a girl and I agree with the two-ladder-part of the theory for girls, but disagree with the rating system.

What do you guys think about the one-ladder-part of the theory for guys and their rating system?

[azelismia]

I think this topic is really interesting. I used to be a very strong believer in a "yes, absolutely, why not" As I got a little older and analyzed a little I realized that it isn't really true.

Majority of my friends have always been male. However, I do not have any male friends that have been consistently friends with me for an extended period of time (anything over 4-5 years for when either is involved with other people, about 4 months when we're both single).

There is always drama. I agree with LionsPride that even if you're not interested in your friend sexually you need to know that they will sleep with you under some circumstance. But given long enough time due to that little side note, someone always crosses the line.

I can honestly say I get along with men better, but it is because they are more forgiving of my quirks, writing them off as "she is a girl, so she is different.... eh, whatever"

Every single friendship I have had with a guy either ended in a relationship or ended very very badly with lots of hurt feelings. Or I was wise enough to keep the distance enough where it never crossed the line. But when you keep that distance is it that true all inclusive friendship we're really talking about.

I guess, I'm speaking from a personal experience, but I've never been friends with a guy who hasn't at some point tried to sleep with me... I know how it sounds, but it is the honest to god truth. I don't think I encourage it, but considering that stipulation mentioned by LionsPride earlier perhaps subconsciously I do. I doubt I'm alone in that though...


ditto on everything written here, I gave up on trying to have male friends years ago. you can't ever really let your guard down. if the person was really a "friend" that would not be the case.

[Maayan]

Who cares? Attraction doesn't mean treating someone like a piece of meat. A functional friendship isn't contingent upon asexuality. Although...

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(I hope I'm the first one to post this.)

[tp6626]

I think it's just that sex means less to men than it does to women. If you asked any male friend if they would have sex with you (no strings attached), just to pass the time for a bit of a laugh, I bet they'd mostly be up for it. Why wouldn't they? If you're close enough to be considered a friend, I'm sure they wouldn't flinch at having sex with you.

It is built into their nature after all to spread their seed as far as possible. Maybe this is part of it?

The only reasons I can think a man may avoid it, would be to avoid causing problems, treading on tows, feeling awkward, or catching some sort of disease. Doesn't mean he would actively not want to do it though, if presented with it on a plate.

It's an odd one.

[Maayan]

I think it's just that sex means less to men than it does to women. If you asked any male friend if they would have sex with you (no strings attached), just to pass the time for a bit of a laugh, I bet they'd mostly be up for it. Why wouldn't they? If you're close enough to be considered a friend, I'm sure they wouldn't flinch at having sex with you.

True. I know of a study in which a woman approached men on a university campus and propositioned them for sex -- no strings attached. Her proposition was almost invariably accepted, and those who turned her down had partners and didn't think that they could get away with cheating. Interestingly enough, when the researchers repeated the experiment with the genders flipped, all of the women rejected the proposition. The researchers even acknowledged that safety is an issue for women, and revised the experiment so that a trusted friend acted as a "middle man," who assured that the guy isn't a creep. Still, all of them rejected his proposition.

[daydreamer]

i have guys friends that i consider very close, and a lesbian friend as well. i don't feel any sexual tension. for one, i think i give off the vibe to anyone getting to know me that i have been with my mate for so long it's a foregone conclusion that extra-marital sex is out of the question. and although all of them are not married, each of their lives is complicated in its own right; why would we want to complicate the friendship with issues of sex? i think it's safe to say we just want to be friends, even though we may care for each other a great deal. i'm glad that someone believes guys and girls can be friends. :)

[llBradll]

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Is actually quite an interesting theory.

I'm a girl and I agree with the two-ladder-part of the theory for girls, but disagree with the rating system.

What do you guys think about the one-ladder-part of the theory for guys and their rating system?

I'm a guy and I'd have to agree with the female ladder. I think the male ladder is sort of inaccurate because it doesn't take into account the decent guys.
I'll be completely honest here. If an attractive female friend asked to fuck, I'd probably be open to it as long as she understands its just sex. I wouldn't lead her on to anything else.
The ladders just don't work out for nice guys though because they begin with comfort which sends them straight to the friends latter. They need to begin with attraction which will get them on the right latter. Thats also why girls like jerks. They start out with attraction and have much better odds being on the right ladder.

[BostonIan]

To me, "nice guys" are worse people than jerks. A jerk seduces a woman strongly, honestly. A nice guy lingers like a dormant virus, waiting for a moment of weakness, then does what jerks do, only weaker, hypocritically, while pretending to be a sweetheart. Good men are closer to jerks than nice guys, I think.

On topic, thinking back, every single female friend I've ever had was a woman who was in love with me, but who I wasn't attracted to. Whenever there was a mutual attraction, even in a group of regular "friends", there was always a distance between mutually-attracted people that would prevent a friendship from forming. I think what usually happens in one-sided "friendships" is that one is drawn to other for their attractiveness, moves toward them, breaks the familiarity barrier, and then sometimes gets stuck there, especially if they're non-threatening. The resulting relationship is less about friendship and more about making patient, polite conversation while stuck in sexual purgatory.

This is coming from a chastoid, by the way, I'm not jaded in these matters. Just calling it like I think it is.

[Samoan Corleone]

With all this talk of the Ladder Theory, I have to disagree with it. I mean, c'mon, it's basically a huge generalization. I have many good female friends who are funny, smart, good-looking and just genuinely good people, and any guy would be lucky to be with one of them, but if they made that kind of move on me it'd be awkward. I'd tell them no. Yes, I'm very much a straight male.

There's also no such thing as the "friend-zone". Just attraction and lack thereof.

As for the study that Maayan mentioned, I can honestly say that I would've turned down that girl if she approached me, and I'm single at the moment. There are some evil-ass bitches (excuse my passionate language) out there who use sex as currency, knowing that most males are too weak to resist. No way in hell am I letting them control me, man! I got a code of ethics, ya know?!





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 2 minutes and 47 seconds later...

In closing, I'd like to quote...myself:

"Every man is born with two heads, think with the one on your shoulders."

[sujit]

A guy of 20 years old can't see friendship between a girl and another guy initially because of comparatively higher sexual drive in comparison to a pratice of friendship.
Freindship is a spontaneity which comes after a certain time of association between two individual. It has nothing to do with any other man's frame of reference.

[alphawolf]

I have had sex at least twice with each of the women who are my "friends". This doesn't count coworkers, some of which I talk to quite regularly on a personal level but never see outside of work.

If I am spending time alone with a woman, I am always thinking about having sex with her. I don't spend time alone with ones that I don't want to have sex with, because there are too many that I do want to have sex with and life is short.

[Asinine]

Sure, I being just friends actually is possible, for me at least. But, there is always a question sitting in the back of my mind as to whether I'm missing subtle clues, or if I should take what I'm told on it's face. It's a bug in the system, since a lot of human courting relies on subtly and false pretenses.

To me, "nice guys" are worse people than jerks. A jerk seduces a woman strongly, honestly. A nice guy lingers like a dormant virus, waiting for a moment of weakness, then does what jerks do, only weaker, hypocritically, while pretending to be a sweetheart. Good men are closer to jerks than nice guys, I think.

So, nice guy's can't be honest about their sexual attraction?

[Vagrant]

I can be "just friends" with women that are already in relationships, or I don't find attractive.

Single, attractive women... well, that's a bit harder. lol double entendre

[Sesquipedalian]

No. It is absolutely impossible for guys and girls to be friends.

...

[probity]

I've never had a problem being 'just friends' with men, even men that I find attractive. Most people I make friends with are people I'm attracted to anyway, if I wasn't I wouldn't be interested in getting to know them. Only once have I ever felt the need to pursue a romantic relationship with a friend, in every other circumstance I've always been satisfied with letting the relationship stay friendly.

[Monte314]

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[Cyr]

Given there's no attraction whatsoever, I believe friendship is possible. And one of the two ppl looking like Frankenstein definitely helps staying "just friends"... :ugly:

[llBradll]

Can't I just be friends and be open to sex? I mean people are always looking to upgrade.

[Samoan Corleone]

Can't I just be friends and be open to sex? I mean people are always looking to upgrade.

That's called being fuck buddies, and yes they do exist.

[llBradll]

I would argue that that still counts as friends.

[enfpchick]

Being just friends with guys works well for me. It has to because most all of my friends are guys, less drama, and i certainly wouldn't do them.
lol expect for one but thats another story.

[darcmanD]

I think girls can be friends with 'F' type men - feelers, and in my exp Feelers do tend to have alot of female friends, perhaps cause they dont always get the emotional connections with male friends and can sometimes feel more comfortable with women

[Samoan Corleone]

Being just friends with guys works well for me. It has to because most all of my friends are guys, less drama, and i certainly wouldn't do them.
lol expect for one but thats another story.

Please, go on...

[Harmony]

I've got many guy friends. Now, whether or not they want to sleep with me, I have no idea... I try to avoid that topic. =P

Plus, I have a couple of gay friends, that makes it real easy to be friends with the opposite sex. =P

[Solaris]

I think girls can be friends with 'F' type men - feelers, and in my exp Feelers do tend to have alot of female friends, perhaps cause they dont always get the emotional connections with male friends and can sometimes feel more comfortable with women

In direct contradiction with that. Most my male friends, with one exception, are NTs. They typically tell me they enjoy my friendship because I'm easy to talk to, have conversation with, and am not all super-girly all the time, but that I'm still feminine. I think NT men enjoy the company of NT women for the same reason you think they'd like F women, just disagree that they would only get that from F women.

[brainysmurf]

Given there's no attraction whatsoever, I believe friendship is possible.

I disagree. I think you can have a great friendship ("just friends") even if there is some attraction on one or both sides.

[heyejanli]

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[llBradll]

^that's awesome. I think mine would be a giant section of akward with a relationship temptation area on the outside.

[Revlutio]

I have the theory that a guy and girl can be friends on one condition:

Each has to believe that the other person would sleep with them under some circumstance.

This is not to say that this would be desirable for the thinker, only that in the eyes of their friend, that there is some possibility, however remote, that the other person wouldn't be opposed to sex. For example: Billy may never be willing to sleep with Susie, but Billy is fairly certain that if he was the last man on Earth, Susie would be willing to sleep with him, not that he'd take her up on it...

The reason I believe this is that all guy/girl relationships that I have seen where one admits to the other that there is no chance, no matter how remote (last man on Earth included) that they would sleep with them, the friendship tends to dissolve and they lose interest in each other soon after.

I post this because I'm curious if anyone can honestly say "I know my best friend would never, EVER sleep with me under any circumstance and I am okay with that, I don't want to sleep with them either." I haven't met anyone who disproved it yet, but it's just a theory and still requires much vetting.

Just as a note, I assume 'friends' does not mean business colleagues or acquaintances. It means people you would actively put time into remaining friends with (ie. call them if they didn't call you in a while etc.) and that you do not have a crush on. It HAS to be platonic on your end.

I see the logic in LionsPrides words. ITs true because of the insinuating factor of this. Once you the have established that one could never be (sexually) with the other. the idea takes root and begins to pick at their ego (what's wrong with me, i thought he/she was my friend) and goes from the unconscious to the conscious mind and then resentment occurs and grows. soon after the very thought of the person inspires anger and negative feelings destroying the relationship.

Alright, I'll try to be nice here. I shouldn't even address your first statement as it should be self-evident that, in the professor example, the whole issue is that the professional and the interpersonal realms have the potential to intersect.

Secondly, no person can fulfill the entirety of someone else's needs. We look to others to help fill those needs of various kinds, so even if it is the case that I feel an attraction to a male friend and he does not, it is not a no win situation. I gain that man's ideas, access to another human's feelings, experiences, knowledge. That is enough for me. Even though I may be attracted to that friend, I am not looking for sexual fulfillment from him- so no expectations are being violated, no time is wasted. Therefore I am fulfilled in the ways I sought from him. I do not 'suffer in silence'- I choose to gain from him in non-sexual ways.

Perhaps you need to broaden your perspective of what humans have to offer one another.

P.S.- Using the word 'retarded' betrays a certain ignorance all its own.

I want to state that I stopped reading the posts after the 5th page. IT just started to bore me. So I may be addressing something someone before has already.

It is apparent to me the problem of most of this. How it was missed by so many (leading up to page five) Avails me. But many did cover good ground and just about hit the topic and then some. But others just made me feel embarrassed for them. ITs not the action that creates the issue. ITs the perception change not everyone is comfortable knowing that their friend what's to have sex with them. That in mind it forces them to see them in a different light and makes them cautious just how close they get. It make them to uncomfortable because they violated their trust by having a potential sexual motif towards them and having gendered their friendship. (I am not just a friend in his/here eyes I am a penis/vagina or platonic/sexual, person/gender) Not everyone has mastered their sexual urges to obtain fulfillment in other forms.

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?
Do you believe one of them have some underlying motif? or do these type of friendships lead to something more down the line?

All personal examples welcome!

Are you sure you are not asking us to see if he might be attracted to you because you have feelings for him? I believe under the right conditions you can maintain a platonic relationship. If closeness is limited and you make a strict set of boundaries and rules. But if your are discontent and or lonely your trust might lead to admiration then desire will start to root and you will notice his positive qualities more and start to find him attractive then you will want to bring your closeness to a higher level (lovemaking). Read Stendhals concept of crystallization

[ChristopherL]

Do you honestly think that a guy and a girl can simply be friends?
Do you believe one of them have some underlying motif? or do these type of friendships lead to something more down the line?

All personal examples welcome!
If one or both of them is gay and/or horrendous looking absolutely.

[Terian]

I would say that most of my friends are female. I have no romantic inclinations (physical or otherwise) towards any of them. And no, they aren't all unattractive.

[demaugustus]

In regards to the OP...

I've tried to be just friends, but it never works. Either my feelings get hurt, her feelings get hurt, or we sleep together. Once a man and a woman become intimate it's very hard to keep things from becoming sexual; although, I've known other guys and gals who've done it.

(It get's more complex than this, but I don't feel very complex today)

[auriga vega]

I think girls can do that. I have several great guy friends, and I'm not sexually attracted to any of them in any way.