Fatherhood

[Fireath]

The last year or so, I've noticed an increasing urge to father and raise children, but in sampling my selection of friends and a few randoms, I've come to the conclusion that I'm in a drastic minority. It's raised a few concerns/doubts in my own aspirations. Let me outline my reasoning (as I understand it) and my concerns.


My Reasons For
Why does anyone want to have kids, really? For my own part, I have some desire to continue the cycle of life that I've been involved in. I've been given the spark of consciousness, and I'd like to pass that torch on to the next generation of my family. I'd like my accomplishments during my life to stand on their own, and I'd like one of those to be an ability to raise and educate my children. My parents raised three Ph.D./Masters science graduates, and I can't even imagine how good that feels. But it isn't a selfish feeling, it's a mutual one, and something they've given to me "with no strings attached." I want to be a pinnacle of influence in raising my children, not just stand aside or send alimony checks to some girl that I knocked up. I want my children to contribute something good, whatever it may be, to the future generation(s) of this world.


Argument Against
I mentioned earlier that most of my friends have absolutely no compulsion (at the moment) to have children, and they've cited a number of reasons. It's also a statistical fact that educated people tend to have less children per capita than others (perhaps this is due to cultural influences and government benefit programs? A can of worms for another thread, perhaps...). In the case of my friends, the most common answer is that they are selfish - they don't want to deal with the cost, the hassle, the time commitment, or otherwise are unwilling to give of themselves for the benefit of their children. For men, I hear more often that they don't "like" kids. For women, at least where I live, a popular excuse is that having children would restrict them from being able to sleep around and have multiple boyfriends.

Society is also mentioned, though not nearly as often. That is, people don't want to raise a child 'in this dark/evil world we live in'. America's failing education system is often cited as an example of this. Personally, I believe that with proper education and preparing, a child can be raised (as I was) to not only live in this world, but strive to change (or preserve) it for good, whatever the child/person believes to be 'good'.

The other reason I hear is that people don't believe they'd be good parents. I thought I'd mention this; it's not a problem I personally suffer from and it's a perfectly legitimate concern. I won't discuss it further.


Personal Concerns
So there are a few things now that concern me about parenting, and fatherhood specifically. The first is the lack of someone that I could trust as a partner in this endeavor (regardless of my financial stability and desire to raise children, I live in America and I'm male, so it's impossible to adopt, and I'd want the child to have a mother in its life anyway). Not only do you have to trust someone not to leave you or do something to make you leave them, but you have to trust them not to leave the child as well. It seems nearly impossible to find someone that loves you, agrees with enough of your life values to work well as a partner in parenting, and that you can form a romantic relationship with, and has a desire to raise children in the first place. And as I get older, it seems like the few women that do exist that fit the order are all already married, forming families, or have no interest in me "in that way" (I've had plenty of girl friends in my life, but only one girlfriend). My view of a family also seems to be a dwindling dream, where in (American) society now we almost just expect that the woman will raise the children and the man will go do his own thing and pay alimony. That is, I need a woman who recognizes my desire to actually be a part of my children's lives and allow me to do so. Certainly, our legal system has enabled her to dismiss me at any time she pleases.

My other primary concern is that of motivation. As the years of constant and absolute rejection go on, I find myself continually growing more lonely. I can't deny that I crave the love of any children I might have, though there is of course no guarantee they will love me. I just don't want to fall into the category of 'had children because he was lonely, should have gotten a cat'. Perhaps I will find that once I enter a mutually loving, romantic relationship, this urge to parent will dissipate or be replaced by my partner's companionship. Perhaps I will never find such a thing. I don't believe it's a matter of loneliness alone, as I've mentioned many other reasons for wanting to have children above, but I don't, at any point, want my desire to be a father to become a selfish one.



So what do you guys think? Do you have a desire to have children? If not, why? Do you feel that my concerns specifically regarding being a male parent are justified, or am I worrying over nothing? In the (extremely likely) event that I can never attract a partner, what are your thoughts on being a single father parent and what options would even be available for such a thing?

[changos]

So what do you guys think?
Amazing description. Little to add.-

Do you have a desire to have children?
Yes, healthy, happy and free.

Do you feel that my concerns specifically regarding being a male parent are justified, or am I worrying over nothing?
People underrate the parenthood... the whole love relationships in general. The mental health of your kids is in danger when you take bad decisions.

I think it all comes from the fact that people "think they are ok" and they are trying to make a mother out of anything (sorry, with all respect) and this works for the girls too. Many choose "anybody" to build a family. SURE at the moment it seems ok, but their own lack of knowledge won't let them see. Only years later (it goes from 7 months to 3 years, also the legendary 7 years) to find out they choose "anybody" for the task. People worry too much to find a partner (lover, whatever) without seeing if that person can be a wife or husband years into the future)

In the (extremely likely) event that I can never attract a partner...
slow down.. IMHO you attract partners... pretty sure many married girls (and single) see your potential and how you see family. Some get scared, some see you too concerned, some might see you focused on being a father (not also a husband) and some with enough experience perhaps want to try but are already married. Married people already know the needed characteristics to raise kids, so there you have it...

what are your thoughts on being a single father parent and what options would even be available for such a thing?
If my marriage fails I'm not willing to let my kids go. Single father? adopting? I don't think thats for me. I had a relationship with a widow, long story but I want to see the reflection of my eyes there, the best of both parents... so adopting? I think is ok but raising a kid is hard enough... is better when you are there on time (since the beginning).

I live in Central America... a guy adopting a kid? no no no. Pretty sure the very neighbors will call the police to say you practice some kind of child abuse. Its sad here...

---------

I understand your concern. Finding a true friend is hard enough, not to mention a life partner (and not to mention somebody who can share the task of having a family). Sorry if this bothers some of you but where I live... it doesn't matter how pretty the girls are, almost everyone feels ugly, fat, scared... there is a relationship with how you feel and not wanting to pass that to the kids, it makes sense. So, first a person has to work on the self. Or...

...A bag of worms for another thread...I quote that line of yours as today many people think they can be on crack, then regret it and there you go, they are ready for anything. We can't make a father or a mother out of anybody. Take infidelity... for many, that's only a mistake from the past, so at present you have to hear their confessions and trust? no.

I think having a family and keeping it together, happy with their feet on the ground is one of the hardest task nowadays. Good luck, there are good people around, here per example we can find very healthy and mature opinions from girls and guys. There is hope, there's healthy people willing to live the next part of life.

I think this is all getting harder as nowadays "family" is a very abstract concept as many come from "unhealthy living groups."

[gadjitfreek]

So what do you guys think?
Really nicely expressed!

Do you have a desire to have children?
No, not even remotely. I couldn't stand kids when I WAS a kid! Besides, I'm sterile, thanks to my pituitary tumor.

Do you feel that my concerns specifically regarding being a male parent are justified, or am I worrying over nothing?
I think your fears are entirely justified. The odds are not all that great for American fathers. Your wife decides she wants out, she claims abuse and you never see her or your children again...or your paycheck. My personal distrust of other people kicks in pretty quickly.


In the (extremely likely) event that I can never attract a partner...
With the mistrustful thoughts that folks like us harbor, you might attract them, and then you find you don't want to take the risk. I never found anyone, and I have no regrets.

what are your thoughts on being a single father parent and what options would even be available for such a thing?
I wouldn't do it. But that's just me. Why not spend some time with kids, volunteer for kid's organizations and first see if you can tolerate being around kids before you take the leap?

Mark

[SeaCzar]

So what do you guys think?

First off, you are correct that the ideal environment to raise a child(ren) is with both father and mother, both very much involved raising and nurturing their child(ren). I'd suggest first that you find a partner that sees things as you do concerning this matter, and someone you are compatible with.

You also use the term "trust" in your post. This is an over-arching concern. IMHO, its extremely easy to love someone. Trust is a completely different story. Marriage is a crap shoot, and the odds are (very much) against you. However, if you find a partner that you love and trust, you have found the key. Irrespective of why, should you have to divorce down the road, you'll still have a mother of your child(ren) that your can trust to do the right thing.

You're friends are correct as well. There are two kinds of people: those with kids and those without. Once you have a child, your life is never the same. That said, being a (good) father is the best thing that can be said about any guy.

[Fireath]

...some might see you focused on being a father (not also a husband)...

I think this is all getting harder as nowadays "family" is a very abstract concept as many come from "unhealthy living groups."

Well, it's not like I open up conversations with women by saying "do you want to have babies?" I'm trying to take it one step at a time, but I live in a city where even just meeting women, much less getting any sort of positive response from one, is incredibly difficult. Perhaps someday I'll write about it, but probably more in a blog/rant form.

As for the second quote, I completely agree. I think this is what scares off many would-be parents; all the evidence that we, as (in my case) Americans are unable to keep a relationship together or choose proper partners. All reasons (cultural or otherwise) and other effects aside, it's daunting for people to see each other failing so miserably. As far as relationships are concerned, we live in a society that breeds mistrust.

I wouldn't do it. But that's just me. Why not spend some time with kids, volunteer for kid's organizations and first see if you can tolerate being around kids before you take the leap?

If I thought I could without being branded a freak or a pervert...

But good idea. When it comes time, I'll see what I can do.

You also use the term "trust" in your post. This is an over-arching concern. IMHO, its extremely easy to love someone. Trust is a completely different story. Marriage is a crap shoot, and the odds are (very much) against you. However, if you find a partner that you love and trust, you have found the key. Irrespective of why, should you have to divorce down the road, you'll still have a mother of your child(ren) that your can trust to do the right thing.

Eloquently put. Thank you for reiterating this point; you hit the nail right on the head there. I hate to just write a "pat on the back" or a "thumbs up" response, but that's pretty much exactly how I've always felt.

[Monte314]

I have three children, and a grandchild. It is a wonderful thing, and I cannot imagine how much poorer my life would be without them.

Two are adults. One is married with a daughter, and the other is in graduate school, and single. The youngest, 15, is still at home.

My wife and I homeschooled all three from Kindergarten up, so we have had much more time with them than most parents have with their kids. Being a dad is great. And, as you said, the great part is not about what you get, but about what you give.

[Released]

So what do you guys think?
Very interesting post. I was similar though my desire came earlier than yours...

Do you have a desire to have children? If not, why?
I've wanted to be a father ever since I was 13. I really looked forward to having children, raising them, loving them, providing them with a happy childhood that I never had. In fact even before I was interested in finding a wife, I wanted to have kids. I've always loved kids and still do. I wanted a girlfriend for the company and companionship, but my drive to be a dad was stronger than the drive for sex or companionship.

Do you feel that my concerns specifically regarding being a male parent are justified, or am I worrying over nothing?
Your circumstances are different than anyone else, and your assessment of the risks is correct. However, the likelihood of a woman leaving you depends on a lot of factors -- and personality is but one of them. The older you are, the less likely you'll think you have time to spare, and your peer group may decrease in quantity as you get older. So you're right to be worried, but at the same time, worrying won't get you toward your goal. I'm married to an INTJ and we click. You just need to find someone you click with (whoever she is) and go from there!

In the (extremely likely) event that I can never attract a partner, what are your thoughts on being a single father parent and what options would even be available for such a thing?
I agree with posters above who have taken issue with this statement. There is no reason you can't attract the right partner. INTJs have skills when it comes to women. Learn the types, learn what makes them tick and use that information to appeal to them.

[changos]

Well, it's not like I open up conversations with women by saying "do you want to have babies?" I'm trying to take it one step at a time, but I live in a city where even just meeting women, much less getting any sort of positive response from one, is incredibly difficult. Perhaps someday I'll write about it, but probably more in a blog/rant form.

As for the second quote, I completely agree. I think this is what scares off many would-be parents; all the evidence that we, as (in my case) Americans are unable to keep a relationship together or choose proper partners. All reasons (cultural or otherwise) and other effects aside, it's daunting for people to see each other failing so miserably. As far as relationships are concerned, we live in a society that breeds mistrust.

I know what you mean and I agree, one step at a time. In my case I find very disappointing to date girls and then the white turns to gray as we speak. Many people trying to find someone change the speech, I know... but is a waste of time.

Where I live many are focused in "not being dominated by man" and time goes by... then you find old ladies desperate to try a relationship

What about... yes, maybe naive but... professions? after talking about this with some friends we found out (with strong evidence) about the ambition of lawyers, the perfectionism of architects... and so on) we just thought that teachers have a different way of living and they value family and kids. As for the other ones we are just tired of "smoking-drinking professionals" (sport guys don't get along with these when is about having a family)

[Krazy P]

I had a very strong desire for children and I have 5 of them. I got married at 20 and had my first child at 23.

My reasoning is this: what is the purpose of all life? (this is one of those conversations I had in my head when I was 13)

All life, from microscopic organisms to higher mammals are hard wired to procreate.

So, my basic job was to do that and give my gene set the best chance to survive and prosper.

I sought out a woman who had good genes, good wealth and with whom I was compatible. Once that was accomplished, we set out to have a lot of kids and provide for them.

Worked for me.

[Fanowene]

So what do you guys think? Do you have a desire to have children? If not, why? Do you feel that my concerns specifically regarding being a male parent are justified, or am I worrying over nothing? In the (extremely likely) event that I can never attract a partner, what are your thoughts on being a single father parent and what options would even be available for such a thing?

Yeah, I want kids. Eventually. Once I'm done with college, married (haven't even had a boyfriend yet) and settled, etc. I just want to. I want to have little children to give my love away to, my own children to form and to see them grow.

Hey, don't you worry about attracting somebody. Just by reading your post I was extremely attracted to you. :)
But it sounds like you're way older than me, so... But, unlike women, you have more time to find a mate. For women reproduction ends around 40. (Though I don't know how hard you want to insist on finding a partner that is your age.)

I would not go with being a single parent, though. That's too unbalanced and too unstable in my opinion.

[Fireath]

[/B]I agree with posters above who have taken issue with this statement. There is no reason you can't attract the right partner. INTJs have skills when it comes to women. Learn the types, learn what makes them tick and use that information to appeal to them.

What about... yes, maybe naive but... professions? after talking about this with some friends we found out (with strong evidence) about the ambition of lawyers, the perfectionism of architects... and so on) we just thought that teachers have a different way of living and they value family and kids. As for the other ones we are just tired of "smoking-drinking professionals" (sport guys don't get along with these when is about having a family)

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the encouragement, but this wasn't exactly how I'd hoped the conversation would go. Regardless, there's no great way for me to respond to this right now without entering into one heck of a rant, but suffice it to say, there are basically no single women where I live.


Yeah, I want kids. Eventually. Once I'm done with college, married (haven't even had a boyfriend yet) and settled, etc. I just want to. I want to have little children to give my love away to, my own children to form and to see them grow.

Hey, don't you worry about attracting somebody. Just by reading your post I was extremely attracted to you. :)
But it sounds like you're way older than me, so... But, unlike women, you have more time to find a mate. For women reproduction ends around 40. (Though I don't know how hard you want to insist on finding a partner that is your age.)

I would not go with being a single parent, though. That's too unbalanced and too unstable in my opinion.

Thanks! Actually I'm 26. For some reason I thought it was in my profile here, but it isn't. My primary concern about age is simply that my peer group, especially the single ones, are already marrying off and having children, leaving the 'pickings' slim as far as finding a partner. Age is one of those things that has never particularly bothered me, but I find that the older my peer group gets, the less available partners become. More specifically, the older I get, the less time I feel I have to form a trusting and loving relationship before I'm comfortable having the kids with them in the first place. But again... getting off track here.

I'm still debating the single parent thing. I don't want to raise children alone, but if I don't have a choice...

[changos]

(1)...there are basically no single women where I live...

(2)Thanks! Actually I'm 26. For some reason I thought it was in my profile here, but it isn't. My primary concern about age is simply that my peer group, especially the single ones, are already marrying off and having children, leaving the 'pickings' slim as far as finding a partner. Age is one of those things that has never particularly bothered me, but I find that the older my peer group gets, the less available partners become. More specifically, the older I get, the less time I feel I have to form a trusting and loving relationship before I'm comfortable having the kids with them in the first place. But again... getting off track here.

I'm still debating the single parent thing. I don't want to raise children alone, but if I don't have a choice...
(1) that's an issue out of your control unless you go to where the fish are, or... it would be no fishing :(

(2) Yes, as we grow old, the less available people available (and the ones available are single for one of two reasons: nobody wants them (nobody see future there for family, rejected or whatever...) or they are single by choice just as you backup your situation of trust on a relationship (or any other reason by choice).

The thing is, back to the original post of parenthood: the older the girls, the more mature and willing they get to have a family. Generally, people in begin to drop fantasies and bad attitudes as they see none of that is working, so there is more chance (or better chance) to find your partner for parenthood). At least where I live its very evident the dream of a big fantasy-expensive wedding at some age, then it disappears they older they get and they concern more and more for the same things you mention on your first post (the real thing).

I understand the weight of the emotional content of the post (your concerns), but in my case and this one, I don't see other option but to expand the search getting to know more people. Its a hard job but I don't see other way. If what you see where you live is not available, is not fertile land or for some other way are not appropriate for the task I'll say expand the search (not big help, sorry, I find myself locked in a cage too) but at least hope that seeing others concerned for the same real thing as you are can help you to see you are not alone on this.

I don't judge your age, but with the society we live in... there are little chances that a lady with the same age could have things so clear, willing to commit for what you mention (no disrespect, at least is a strong tendency where I live... people in general don't think of family at this age, there are plenty of studies here to back that up, again, where I live)

[Fireath]

(1) that's an issue out of your control unless you go to where the fish are, or... it would be no fishing :(

(2) Yes, as we grow old, the less available people available (and the ones available are single for one of two reasons: nobody wants them (nobody see future there for family, rejected or whatever...) or they are single by choice just as you backup your situation of trust on a relationship (or any other reason by choice).

The thing is, back to the original post of parenthood: the older the girls, the more mature and willing they get to have a family. Generally, people in begin to drop fantasies and bad attitudes as they see none of that is working, so there is more chance (or better chance) to find your partner for parenthood). At least where I live its very evident the dream of a big fantasy-expensive wedding at some age, then it disappears they older they get and they concern more and more for the same things you mention on your first post (the real thing).

I understand the weight of the emotional content of the post (your concerns), but in my case and this one, I don't see other option but to expand the search getting to know more people. Its a hard job but I don't see other way. If what you see where you live is not available, is not fertile land or for some other way are not appropriate for the task I'll say expand the search (not big help, sorry, I find myself locked in a cage too) but at least hope that seeing others concerned for the same real thing as you are can help you to see you are not alone on this.

I don't judge your age, but with the society we live in... there are little chances that a lady with the same age could have things so clear, willing to commit for what you mention (no disrespect, at least is a strong tendency where I live... people in general don't think of family at this age, there are plenty of studies here to back that up, again, where I live)

1) I'm stuck here for about another two years.

2) I find the "single by choice" is more common around here. If a woman is single, it's because she hates relationships, hates men, doesn't want someone to slow her down, doesn't have time, etc. I think these people have the wrong perspective on relationships. Yes, they're work, and yes, they take some time, but a healthy relationship is not a burden, and an ideal partner would do the exact opposite of slowing you down. Of course, most of the times I've heard these excuses, I discovered they'd entered a relationship with someone else soon after and just didn't want to be honest with me about an issue of incompatibility.


As for my age, I don't think it's too early to be thinking about this. I'm not talking about wanting to go out and start popping out kids tomorrow. First steps first. It takes a while to get into a steady, healthy relationship/marriage that's conducive to raising children. Some people never do. I just wanted to share some concerns and get some discussion going about fatherhood and the challenges of being a male parent.

[Astra]

I think it's great that you're thinking about all these issues now, but tbh the biggest problem for most new fathers IME is the sudden lack of free time/lack of attention from their wives/general commitment to being home at a certain time most nights. It isn't really the existential issues.

If you are ready to put someone else's needs before your own pretty much all the time, then you are ready for fatherhood.

And if you wait about 4 more years, you will find plenty of newly-single women your age who are very keen to have children ;)

[Fireath]

I think it's great that you're thinking about all these issues now, but tbh the biggest problem for most new fathers IME is the sudden lack of free time/lack of attention from their wives/general commitment to being home at a certain time most nights. It isn't really the existential issues.

If you are ready to put someone else's needs before your own pretty much all the time, then you are ready for fatherhood.

And if you wait about 4 more years, you will find plenty of newly-single women your age who are very keen to have children ;)

That's very true, and something that I'm not sure I'm prepared for just yet. I'd like to get situated in my career and in a more stable position before I feel I'd be ready for such a commitment.

Even now I'm beginning to notice some women my age rebounding from failed long-term relationships. I'm actually in the same boat, myself, although my previous marriage was many years ago already. I do fear the woman whose only interest is in my man gravy, though.

[muguly]

I used to say I wasn't having children until my son was born. He's the greatest kid alive!

[Astra]

I do fear the woman whose only interest is in my man gravy, though.

Quite right too - although having just split up from the father of my children, I have to say I'm personally feeling a helluva lot more picky now than I would if I were childless...

[Colette]

So what do you guys think? Do you have a desire to have children? If not, why? Do you feel that my concerns specifically regarding being a male parent are justified, or am I worrying over nothing? In the (extremely likely) event that I can never attract a partner, what are your thoughts on being a single father parent and what options would even be available for such a thing?

This is what I think (and I'm sorry if this comes across as condescending, I don't intend it to be). I think you are overthinking this issue. Perhaps there is some truth in the view that people generally underthink the decision to have kids (such that many people who aren't really suited, or in the right kind of situation in life) end up becoming parents, and not very good ones at that.

Yes it's a huge responsibility to bring another life into the world, and raise a child to be happy and successful, but imo there are very few right or wrong 'motives' for having a child. For instance the need for company, or the fear of growing old alone, isn't necessarily of itself a 'wrong' motive for having a child, as long as you can offer the child a happy and stable upbringing, and avoid projecting your own unfulfilled needs onto the child in a way that make them responsible for your happiness.

People become parents for all kinds of reasons, and I don't think there is any single set of 'acceptable' motives or circumstances in life, for bringing a child into the world. More important by far, is the question of what sort of environment and qualities you can offer the child as it grows up - can you ensure its basic needs for food, shelter and love, are met, and in addition to that provide stability in terms of home environment and values. Are you willing to be in it for the long haul, or do you see a child more as a 'project' or an 'accessory' to your life? These are the questions you need to ask yourself.

Last of all don't be deterred by the fact that you don't have a partner. Hell, if Jodie Foster can do it, so can you! If you haven't met anyone suitable in a few years' time, adopt or find a surrogate.

[Shoeless]

In the past, I used to want to have children. One of the reasons why I wanted to have children of my own is because of what my mother used to tell me when I was young, "You'll understand when you become a parent". That made me hell bent on finding out what I'll understand, but my stand has wavered somewhat.

First of all, I feel that this world is going to the dogs. And I totally with what a Columbine High School student wrote after the mass murders there;

The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings, but shorter tempers; wider freeways but narrower viewpoints; we spend more, but have less; we buy more, but enjoy it less.

We have bigger houses, but smaller families; more conveniences, but less time; we have more degrees, but less sense; more knowledge, but less judgment; more experts, but more problems; more medicine, but less wellness.

We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom and hate too often. We have learned how to make a living, but not a life; we've added years to our life, but not life to our years.

We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul; we've split the atom, but not our prejudice. We have higher incomes, but lower morals; we've become long on quantity, but short on quality.

These are times of tall men and short character; steep profits and shallow relationships. These are times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more leisure but less fun. These are days of two incomes, but more divorce; fancier houses, but broken homes.

Sounds so much like the world we are living in eh? That's why I'd rather not have children so that they will not see the ugly things I have seen. This place is just not an ideal environment to bring up anyone. Another thing that drove the nail into the coffin was when I saw how messed up the majority of the younger generation are; they don't give a flying f*ck and think that the world owes them a living.

I don't doubt my ability to raise children with strong values, but a huge part comes down to the child's character/personality as well. If he/she is easily influenced by others, there isn't much I can do anyway. The rewards may be great, but it's just too troublesome so I'll probably give it a miss.

[changos]

Sholess, that was very deep.

I hate to see the lower values society has now. Every book, every movie, even the so called "relationship experts" and even church and religion itself is selling the idea that anybody can be a good father-mother and have a healthy family:

Just stop being the irresponsible selfish idiot you've been for 20, 30 or 40 years and there you go. Life, God, society itself should give you a chance (right when you want it). If not, those who refuse to try that with you are the ones to blame. Meaning? society looks bad at those who pretend to have a healthy family. There are many promises in the air of "anything can and should be forgiven".

Trust? you can't trust that person? then you have a problem to forgive, to understand, or to give people a chance. That's ruining society. Companies can reject a person because she or he is lazy, but you? we? no. We have to give people a chance... we ask to much... (rant, irony)

Shoeless, I agree with what you say to some extent. I refuse to give up. Good things can come and happen. What worries me is that people around me (even "friends") steal, cheat, lie and they are having kids... and they are teaching them the same. That worries me, my kids could grow around them... then having more problems to find someone to share life.

[Exponential]

there are basically no single women where I live.

Do you actually live somewhere very very rural, or do you live in a bigger town but that is just your personal perception? What is the approximate population of the town you live in?

This interesting article about the percentage of singles shows that in the US, even in populated places where there are less singles than the national average still at least 1 in 5 women are single:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So i'm curious, your assertion that there are no single people, is that because you live rural, there is a very substantial gender imbalance, or, just because you have not personally met any recently?

[Solaris]

This thread fascinates me a lot more than I thought it would. Kudos on posting something very deep when a lot of postings of late seem to be avoiding deeper issues.

I'm a female. I fall into that category of women who divorced a husband because I got married too young. When I realized that we were not actually healthy for each other, goodbye. I could have never had his children, even thought I didn't want them. It turned out that I just didn't want his children.

Now, let me wax conservative/traditionalist for a minute. I believe children are best raised in a two parent household. I think God/biology wouldn't have arranged the creation of children to take two people otherwise. I do not think it has to be a man and a woman, though. I do think it just takes two parents to do the job adequately. Can single parents be great parents? Yes. Do I think they are the best balance? No. Why? Because one person cannot be two people. It just can't happen.

As an adult who became single late in my 20s, adult dating makes zero sense. So, maybe some of those women you see out there just don't know how to date? I don't. I think men are afraid of me for some reason, though I'm not a scary person. We live in a time when women my age are viewed as leftovers, aging party girls, or divorced women hunting for daddies. Well, I'm not any of those, but I can't exactly go around wearing a sign to that effect, can I? Well I could, but I'm not.

I think that men who understand and appreciate and desire the full experience of fatherhood are pretty rare. I have had the same thought processes of "why bring children into this ugly world" and "..if they were raised properly" idealist thoughts too. I think every educated person who realizes they want children go through this. When I was 5, I remember thinking a lot about adopted children, I don't know why. However, I realized, even then, that the world has many children in need of homes and families. I think I'd still like to have some of my own, but adopting (and the whole topic of adoption) has been such a theme throughout my life, that I see a place for that as well. (three out of four of my closest friends are adopted, and that happened entirely by chance that I met them)

I have worked with children in various places and at various times over the years. I love teaching them (no, I am not a teacher and don't want to be, it's a sometimes thing for me). I love the glow of wonder in their eyes when you are teaching them something new for the first time. To see their spark when they explore and learn independently is equally amazing. Those are the things that make children in this ugly world worth it.

[Fireath]

You guys have all provided some amazing feedback so far. Thanks!

Shoeless - As ugly as the world may be (or appear), there will always be those of us that try to improve or evolve society, if even only in our small little way, or even just avoid it completely. I would hope that my children would continue to carry that torch and light the way for others as well, but of course there's no guarantee. You can only do your best.


Do you actually live somewhere very very rural, or do you live in a bigger town but that is just your personal perception? What is the approximate population of the town you live in?

This interesting article about the percentage of singles shows that in the US, even in populated places where there are less singles than the national average still at least 1 in 5 women are single:

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So i'm curious, your assertion that there are no single people, is that because you live rural, there is a very substantial gender imbalance, or, just because you have not personally met any recently?

Reno (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Checking out some of the singles sites (biased poll, I know) I've noticed ratios of anywhere from 1.5:1 to 2:1 male:female ratios for Reno. Primarily I'm basing this on personal experience, though.

There are countless other factors involved that I don't have the time or motivation to write out at the moment, but the general consensus among my friends and myself (those that travel or live in different areas) is that our (local... it is a tourist town after all) population is more obese, hostile, snobby, and/or otherwise unpleasant than anywhere they have ever been. Except Las Vegas. I hear it's worse down there.

I could explain all of my observations here for you, but it would not only be completely off-topic, but you probably wouldn't be able to believe me that the dating scene could be so horrible without actually experiencing the city yourself. I've made believers out of many of my out-of-state friends, though.

The good thing is, the solution is rather simple. It's just going to take me a year or two to finish my work here before I can move. I travel very often, and I've found many other places in the world that I absolutely adore, where the people don't treat each other like trash, and women appreciate it when men show interest in them.

I think men are afraid of me for some reason, though I'm not a scary person. We live in a time when women my age are viewed as leftovers, aging party girls, or divorced women hunting for daddies. Well, I'm not any of those, but I can't exactly go around wearing a sign to that effect, can I? Well I could, but I'm not.

I feel exactly like this (except with women, of course). I am guilty of generalizing many single women as being "aging party girls", but where I live, that tends to be a correct assumption. Reno is full of retired strippers, whores (no, seriously), and college party girls. Ugh. I don't want this to turn into just another thread about dating, so I'll stop there before the ranting begins.

When I was 5, I remember thinking a lot about adopted children, I don't know why. However, I realized, even then, that the world has many children in need of homes and families. I think I'd still like to have some of my own, but adopting (and the whole topic of adoption) has been such a theme throughout my life, that I see a place for that as well. (three out of four of my closest friends are adopted, and that happened entirely by chance that I met them)

My brother was fully/legally adopted by my father, and there was never any doubt in any of our minds growing up that he wasn't really, fully our brother. My father loved him like any of his other children. Adoption hasn't been such a strong theme in my life, but I fully realize that parenting doesn't necessarily need to have anything to do with blood. Especially considering how many children there are in the world in need of a good home. As Shoeless pointed out, broken families and deadbeat parents are in ample supply these days.

[Deliberator]

I'm currently married and my husband and I do not want children right now. We've even admitted that we might never have children.

I go back and forth between feeling selfish and feeling like I need to pass on my genes. Sometimes just thinking about the mindless horrors and boredom involved in parenting makes me shudder. But honestly, I think it'll catch up to me someday because my husband and I will want to take on the challenge.

Our reasoning at the moment is (1) We could've been more successful had our parents raised us better. Let's have children and give them the support that we didn't get. (2) We need more smart people in the world. (3) We have great genes and great personalities; with our powers combined we could beget the coolest people ever!

See, we don't have enough people that we can relate to in our lives right now. What better way to cure that then to raise your own people? Silly I know, but true nonetheless.

I think your reasons for wanting children are pretty justified. No kid is ever going to be raised perfectly, as long as you give them the tools to work through the problems they may face.

[Colette]

Now, let me wax conservative/traditionalist for a minute. I believe children are best raised in a two parent household. I think God/biology wouldn't have arranged the creation of children to take two people otherwise. I do not think it has to be a man and a woman, though. I do think it just takes two parents to do the job adequately. Can single parents be great parents? Yes. Do I think they are the best balance? No. Why? Because one person cannot be two people. It just can't happen.

Yes, and for a woman this becomes even more of an issue in raising sons (I have two). I don't even try to be 'Dad' - any attempt to play that role would be false and hollow, and the kids would probably laugh at me. I leave the 'dad' stuff to their Dad and male relatives, and hope like hell it's enough, and at the right time. So far, so good. Neither of them appears to have experienced any terrible gender confusion or depression brought on by their 'broken home' status.

I have worked with children in various places and at various times over the years. I love teaching them (no, I am not a teacher and don't want to be, it's a sometimes thing for me). I love the glow of wonder in their eyes when you are teaching them something new for the first time. To see their spark when they explore and learn independently is equally amazing. Those are the things that make children in this ugly world worth it.

For what its worth, I think one day you'll be a mom, and a very good one. Whether it's with the partner of your dreams or not, who knows - none of us has a crystal ball, but I'd offer the same advice to you as to the OP. Don't allow the lack of a suitable partner to put you off having them, if it's your heart's desire. Kids can be happy in all kinds of settings and circumstances, if the prerequisites of food, shelter and lots of love, are all there. They can be raised by single men and women, by gay couples, by grandparents, aunts or uncles, or even in a commune.

Kids don't come into the world pre-programmed as to what is the "right" type of family to be born into - that's a societally dictated standard that we impose on them (and ourselves), and for the 50% or so of parents who achieve that, more power to them. For the others, we don't need to be dogged by a sense of failure to measure up. In 10 years' time I hope my kids will have independent lives and careers, and (maybe) stable relationships of their own. I hope they'll come to me and say "Mom, you did your very best, and we're proof of that".