Social Engineering

[MrJibbles]

So I met an INTJ recently. But he's rather young and immature [for an intj].
I find him useful because when I need to make a decision on something I don't have info on that I know he does I just ask him what he thinks or what he would do, or what he knows.

Not to mention he's in denial that MBTI has relevance right now [mostly because I gave him misleading information on it because he's kinda a dick, but so capable that I don't want him to know because bad things will happen if he does].

So now I'm working on a social engineer project and wanted to know if any of you have any experience on this. I've been working on this for a while, but just now decided to throw it out in the open.

[Bioplasmoid]

Whom is the exact target and what is the aim of your project?

[Monte314]

I've been trying to figure out what you might be talking about here, but I'm just not getting it.

[Fanowene]

Yeah, same here. My worst-case scenario is that you are trying to manipulate somebody and do a human experiment. Or maybe you're just trying to help the person and see if it is possible to bring somebody back on the right track, by setting up situations, etc.

[Outlander]

It seems like your post left out the most important detail: what your project is.

Is this a personal "project" or something work related or what?

We need more info before offering any kind of meaningful recommendations/feedback.

[HackerX]

Heh, people with this superiority complex like yours are far too easy to manipulate. It's not even fun anymore :(

[MrJibbles]

Whom is the exact target and what is the aim of your project?

Target: World
Aim: Peace

It seems like your post left out the most important detail: what your project is.

Is this a personal "project" or something work related or what?

We need more info before offering any kind of meaningful recommendations/feedback.

No, it's not a personal project.
It's understandable that you would want something meaningful. Part of the project involves MBTI. And speaking of such, I find that NF's are the most useful with it because of the save the world mentality, but NT's are the riskiest because of the apathy thing going on. They can slide either way where they use it for personal gain or to help others. Since this place is crawling with NT's I'm a little skiddish on telling too much about it.


Heh, people with this superiority complex like yours are far too easy to manipulate. It's not even fun anymore :(

What you said displays a superiority complex if you haven't noticed.

However, you did bring to my attention that people may think that I have a superiority complex. But as I said in the above response, I'm somewhat skiddish about telling everything here because there are lots of NT's that can slide eitherway. Social engineering can be manipulative or something used to throw a party and have a good time and make sure everyone's happy. You can be a pickpocket, or prevent theft with it. You can start fights or prevent them. Etc. etc. etc..

But since I'm just a normal person like the rest of everyone else, and I came up with this on my own, I see it as a high probability that I'm not the only person who has and many others have as well, hence I'm here asking what the people of this forum have to say about the matter. That way I can piece together and compile all the info, as well as share my info and we'll go on our way.

We're all equals, not just the NT's but the SP's, SJ's, and NF's as well. Fuck it, go read my entry posts. I've been saying this the whole time. I hate when people say we're better or lesser than the next guy because it's bullshit

[Frag]

This was hip 20 years ago.

And stop sounding secretive, it'll cause a run on those damn spy lookin hats.

[Krazy P]

Social engineering in my world refers to activity - usually by criminals - to breach security for pecuniary gain. Pretending to be a phone worker, for example, and getting access to the phone room to get access to systems in a company to do hacking. Bluffing your way past a security guard by pretending to be an auditor. You see it done in the movies a lot. We train staff extensively on this - and test our training at all access points many times a year. Sometimes "activists" use these techniques to "pursue the public good".

I am not sure what the application is here - but I will not help whoever this is with their project.

[punkyplatypus]

Social engineering in what sense? I doubt you mean it in the political sense, unless you or your INTJ friend is in a powerful position. So it sounds like you either want to manipulate for self gain or increase efficiency in society. From a previous post, your target is the world and your aim is peace. So it looks like your intentions are "good" and your leaning towards the latter. Thus, I'm replying under the assumption you're on a mission to increase efficiency in our world society through peace.

So engineering society, recreating or modifying the current social system to gain world peace. There are a few things I don't understand.
What was the purpose of bringing up the INTJ fellow you know? Is he part of the plan? It sounded like you were taking advantage of him (misinforming him & using him), but you dismiss any wrong doing because he's "kinda a dick" and probably also because of your "good" intentions.
How do you plan on reaching world peace? Worldly social structure seems to be very complex in that its different among cultures and viewed differently from person to person. Not to mention the amount of power and influence one would need to actually make any notable changes. It just seems like a fantasy or a fool's errand.
Why are you asking us? Do you believe we as INTJs will have the answers you are looking for? How do we know you're not going to misinform us or use us the way you admit to misinforming/using the other INTJ? Perhaps you're more interested in a chaotic world and you'd like to use our suggestions to safeguard against peace.

Personally I have not really considered taking upon such a task. For a high school government class assignment, I developed rules for a country if I were to write its constitution. It was less in depth than governments in a video games and in no way a key factor in the answer for world peace.

Do I think there should be social engineers to create a system to govern the world's social system?
Maybe, but probably not. This seems like a lot of power to be giving a group of people, but it's not like we as individuals are making anything better. I don't know the qualifications of these social engineers or the extent of their power, nor do I know the future events that are to come if there is no intervention. I think it would be the social engineers' duty to provide me (& everyone else) with this information (& documentation from varying sources to both back it up and explain any cons) so I could make a proper educated decision on whether or not to give them the power to do their social engineering; just like any other engineering proposal.

[dragonsscout]

Hmm, well I'm a bit lost on your goals of your project. If it's to make him less of a jerk, go for it, but carefully. One of my friends [an IStP] tried to basically change me from and INTJ to an estJ. This put a big strain on our relationship, as I was resistant to this and think she was being a bit selfish and arrogant in trying to change me.

[blueback]

World Peace is a unicorn.

It is possible to define, but not to acheive, simply because the definitions are always vague or contradictory.

A world without conflict cannot exist. Period. A world without winners and loser cannot exist. Not even close. A world without suffering and death cannot exist. At least not in any sense that matters.

[MrJibbles]

Social engineering in what sense? I doubt you mean it in the political sense, unless you or your INTJ friend is in a powerful position. So it sounds like you either want to manipulate for self gain or increase efficiency in society. From a previous post, your target is the world and your aim is peace. So it looks like your intentions are "good" and your leaning towards the latter. Thus, I'm replying under the assumption you're on a mission to increase efficiency in our world society through peace.

So engineering society, recreating or modifying the current social system to gain world peace. There are a few things I don't understand.
What was the purpose of bringing up the INTJ fellow you know? Is he part of the plan? It sounded like you were taking advantage of him (misinforming him & using him), but you dismiss any wrong doing because he's "kinda a dick" and probably also because of your "good" intentions.
How do you plan on reaching world peace? Worldly social structure seems to be very complex in that its different among cultures and viewed differently from person to person. Not to mention the amount of power and influence one would need to actually make any notable changes. It just seems like a fantasy or a fool's errand.
Why are you asking us? Do you believe we as INTJs will have the answers you are looking for? How do we know you're not going to misinform us or use us the way you admit to misinforming/using the other INTJ? Perhaps you're more interested in a chaotic world and you'd like to use our suggestions to safeguard against peace.

Personally I have not really considered taking upon such a task. For a high school government class assignment, I developed rules for a country if I were to write its constitution. It was less in depth than governments in a video games and in no way a key factor in the answer for world peace.

Do I think there should be social engineers to create a system to govern the world's social system?
Maybe, but probably not. This seems like a lot of power to be giving a group of people, but it's not like we as individuals are making anything better. I don't know the qualifications of these social engineers or the extent of their power, nor do I know the future events that are to come if there is no intervention. I think it would be the social engineers' duty to provide me (& everyone else) with this information (& documentation from varying sources to both back it up and explain any cons) so I could make a proper educated decision on whether or not to give them the power to do their social engineering; just like any other engineering proposal.

You know, when i think about it, I may or may not be wrong or right.
Anyhow, throwing a party is considered social engineering if you ask me. I usually make a list of everyone I know who'd want to come to the party [a mental list because I don't feel like writing it all out MOST times]. Sometimes there are people who I know are fine when they're there by themselves. Say person A and person B are O.K. if either are there, but if both are there some kinda of drama will be sure to happen. I'll invite or but not the other.

Then there are the events and little things you know will get people talking, etc. etc. etc.. You're engineering a social situation by putting those things there. You've got an aim and you're doing what you can to get to that aim.

Currently, even though I'm not too big on parties, I've been throwing a lot of them and meeting lots of new "friends" [They think I'm their friend, but in a sense I'm really not. They're hear to serve my purpose (Learn from them, so that I can serve a greater purpose). But in the process they're all having fun, and in the end nothing will happen to them that's undesirable from their perspective.]. There will be group A, B, and C. No one from A knows people in B, or C, and so on. But I know all of A, B, and C. I throw a party with group A and pull someone from Group B and C and invite them to the party and then introduce them to selected individuals. Then I sit back and watch and see what happens. If things go wrong or get out of hand I step in and mend it. So far, Group A and B are almost at a point where it's Group AB, and group C is getting there. No one really know I'm doing all of this, but they all seem happier than they were when I initially met them. So it's progress.

The world peace thing works about the same as peace within a set community. Peace would be when everyone is happy and content. Each individual will have a different idea on what they need in order to be happy. It's the same as if you really want to piss someone off, you look at things from their perspective and then you act. When you want someone to be happy you look at it from their perspective and then give them what they need [not what they want] in order to be happy.

Aiming for world peace means that even if I don't make it that far I'll impact a larger area than if I aimed for something like peace in my neighborhood. The larger the goal the harder I'll try.

What else....hmm....

Oh yeah, if you're giving me information and it's disinformation It'll...*bites tongue*....um.....

So the INTJ guy I know, who's a dick. Why mention him. I don't know. I guess I was pointing out that I don't want him to know what I know because I know what an INTJ is capable of doing with information in general. Not to mention he's pretty self serving. I didn't bring him up for a contrast, that's for sure. I guess I just threw in details for the story with no reason other than to have a complete story.

But I don't plan to try to convert him over to my cause. Or really misinform him. Mostly just not tell him anything and keep an eye on him in case he becomes a threat.

Hmm, well I'm a bit lost on your goals of your project. If it's to make him less of a jerk, go for it, but carefully. One of my friends [an IStP] tried to basically change me from and INTJ to an estJ. This put a big strain on our relationship, as I was resistant to this and think she was being a bit selfish and arrogant in trying to change me.

Understood. I agree that it is pretty selfish and arrogant. Personally I'm having an internal arrogance battle with this project I'm doing right now [a different one than the above]. I'm trying to come up with a 5th thing to define a person by to go alone with how they recharge, gather info, finalize decisions, and organize information. The arrogance part is because I've been running into a lot of really smart ESFP's and then INTJ's who're dumb as all hell. Then a few INTJ's who just don't seem to try or care. But of all the INTJ's I meet I find that I'm very very different from them, so I'm seeking a method to define why I'm so different.

This is also inspired by my two brothers who're so different but both INTP's.

Either way I really really don't want to be an arrogant prick so I've been taking constant breaks from the project and coming up with things that'll humble myself so that I don't go to a point of no return and grab a one way ticket to asshole city.

[blueback]

I've been running into a lot of really smart ESFP's and then INTJ's who're dumb as all hell. Then a few INTJ's who just don't seem to try or care. But of all the INTJ's I meet I find that I'm very very different from them, so I'm seeking a method to define why I'm so different.

Aren't INTJs like 1% of the population? Where are you finding so many of them?

[Synamon]

The arrogance part is because I've been running into a lot of really smart ESFP's and then INTJ's who're dumb as all hell. Then a few INTJ's who just don't seem to try or care. But of all the INTJ's I meet I find that I'm very very different from them, so I'm seeking a method to define why I'm so different.


Wouldn't the obvious answer be that YOU are not an INTJ? We are the shadow type for ESFP, perhaps you act like an INTJ when you are under stress and are in fact an ESFP.

[Josephine1012]

Then there are the events and little things you know will get people talking, etc. etc. etc.. You're engineering a social situation by putting those things there. You've got an aim and you're doing what you can to get to that aim.

Currently, even though I'm not too big on parties, I've been throwing a lot of them and meeting lots of new "friends" [They think I'm their friend, but in a sense I'm really not. They're hear to serve my purpose (Learn from them, so that I can serve a greater purpose). But in the process they're all having fun, and in the end nothing will happen to them that's undesirable from their perspective.]. There will be group A, B, and C. No one from A knows people in B, or C, and so on. But I know all of A, B, and C. I throw a party with group A and pull someone from Group B and C and invite them to the party and then introduce them to selected individuals. Then I sit back and watch and see what happens. If things go wrong or get out of hand I step in and mend it. So far, Group A and B are almost at a point where it's Group AB, and group C is getting there. No one really know I'm doing all of this, but they all seem happier than they were when I initially met them. So it's progress.

The world peace thing works about the same as peace within a set community. Peace would be when everyone is happy and content. Each individual will have a different idea on what they need in order to be happy. It's the same as if you really want to piss someone off, you look at things from their perspective and then you act. When you want someone to be happy you look at it from their perspective and then give them what they need [not what they want] in order to be happy.



Ok, so what I know of social engineering is the following: You set up to accomplish a specific goal, but you purposely misinform your target of said goal, let's call it "goal". If the target is gullible and the "goal" seems worthy to the target. The target will attempt to help.... World Peace = Great "Goal"!

Now this forum can be analogous to a community (world) but only populated by individuals that were selected based on strict criteria.

Ok, the whole world peace thing is pretty ambiguous so I'm wondering if your aim is to see how you can impact interactions here. Best of luck

*hugs* NF

[punkyplatypus]

You know, when i think about it, I may or may not be wrong or right.
Anyhow, throwing a party is considered social engineering if you ask me.

Okay, I get what you're saying. I understand why you brought up the INTJ now; I like to be thorough in my explanations, too. I understand the whole party plan and I don't see a problem with it as long as you're not putting cyanide in the punch. However, I'm still lost on how you're going to use this method to create world peace. Do you have some sort of global BBQ pool party planned where world leaders will get together knock back some beers and realize we're not that different after all? Or are you using the parties to realize the basics to the social system so you can implement them to the world social structure? It seems like you're being secretive with your overall plan or you haven't fully developed it yet. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious and I'm looking too much into it.

[intj1999]

Ok, so what I know of social engineering is the following: You set up to accomplish a specific goal, but you purposely misinform your target of said goal, let's call it "goal". If the target is gullible and the "goal" seems worthy to the target. The target will attempt to help.... World Peace = Great "Goal"!

Now this forum can be analogous to a community (world) but only populated by individuals that were selected based on strict criteria.

Ok, the whole world peace thing is pretty ambiguous so I'm wondering if your aim is to see how you can impact interactions here. Best of luck

*hugs* NF


LOL....that is the first thing I thought when I read the original post.
I think this is more of a social "experiment" than social "engineering"....
Since INTJs are supposed to be "masterminds" who are natural leaders, that do not actually take leadership roles, unless they see a reason to do it, the OP is trying to get us to basically solve the question of "world peace" for him.
Amusing, but a bit futile.

[Josephine1012]

Not to mention he's in denial that MBTI has relevance right now [mostly because I gave him misleading information on it because he's kinda a dick, but so capable that I don't want him to know because bad things will happen if he does].

Oh, my being analytical is fun. Are you concerned he is going to make it over here somehow?
I don't see what else (meaning predictable outcome by you) can happen if he finds out he is INTJ...

[intj1999]

Oh, my being analytical is fun. Are you concerned he is going to make it over here somehow?
I don't see what else (meaning predictable outcome by you) can happen if he finds out he is INTJ...

I think that was supposed to be "bait" for us.

[Josephine1012]

Ok, i hate jumping to conclusions (well maybe not since I do it all the time) but given all the info provided by OP, I suspect he/she is a bit full of himself, possibly encouraged by his successes in the past, so perhaps manipulating an online community would be a great feat.

My other guess is, you're trying to set up conditions for measuring that elusive 5th aspect of personality. If so you probably shouldn't have mentioned that particular project, as that will probably cloud the data.





Josephine1012 added to this post, 0 minutes and 52 seconds later...

I think that was supposed to be "bait" for us.

Well, shoot he ended up "catching" ENFP instead, major oops

[intj1999]

Ok, i hate jumping to conclusions (well maybe not since I do it all the time) but given all the info provided by OP, I suspect he/she is a bit full of himself, possibly encouraged by his successes in the past, so perhaps manipulating an online community would be a great feat.

My other guess is, you're trying to set up conditions for measuring that elusive 5th aspect of personality. If so you probably shouldn't have mentioned that particular project, as that will probably cloud the data.





Josephine1012 added to this post, 0 minutes and 52 seconds later...



Well, shoot he ended up "catching" ENFP instead, major oops

I just read his other threads and he sounds like a sociopath to me, who thinks that he can manipulate situations. He seems to consider himself an expert at social interaction. Everything he states is stuff that almost anyone with life experience already knows, but does not use in such a methodical, manipulating way. I am not sure that he is a true INTJ because most INTJs would not consider using people.

[intj1999]

I'd love to hear more about it. I am bored at work and this is amusing. Where did he go? Is he busy planning his strategy to take over the world?

[intj1999]

I just found a post that talks about describing a cube in the desert. That's a pretty typical trick described to budding pick up artists in "the Game". Check out "How to Read People"

I saw that too.

[Josephine1012]

No, it's not a personal project.
It's understandable that you would want something meaningful. Part of the project involves MBTI. And speaking of such, I find that NF's are the most useful with it because of the save the world mentality, but NT's are the riskiest because of the apathy thing going on. They can slide either way where they use it for personal gain or to help others. Since this place is crawling with NT's I'm a little skiddish on telling too much about it.

Ok, so I'm not climbing out of this analyzing trap at all. I am quite literally caught, because here I am analyzing instead of being productive.

If you plan to use MBTI in your world domination scheme, it would be prudent to remember that MBTI as a model of a person is akin to plum pudding model of an atom (for those who absolutely <3 MBTI we can call it Bohr). Yes it describes certain functions quite well, but obviously a human is way too complex to say that there only 16 different types of people.

This brings me to my next point ....


Understood. I agree that it is pretty selfish and arrogant. Personally I'm having an internal arrogance battle with this project I'm doing right now [a different one than the above]. I'm trying to come up with a 5th thing to define a person by to go alone with how they recharge, gather info, finalize decisions, and organize information. The arrogance part is because I've been running into a lot of really smart ESFP's and then INTJ's who're dumb as all hell. Then a few INTJ's who just don't seem to try or care. But of all the INTJ's I meet I find that I'm very very different from them, so I'm seeking a method to define why I'm so different.



there are probably even more than 5 things to measure a personality (doing some math that gives us 25 different types of people), but the thing to remember -- these tests are either self report, or you're relying on a biased party to type someone. So the more elements you introduce, the more you are prone to error.

Also the measure you're trying to introduce, separating smart people from not so smart people, sounds like an IQ test.

Best of luck with your social experiment.






Josephine1012 added to this post, 5 minutes and 35 seconds later...

what I'm trying to say you can have a general guideline MBTI is a good one, but you can not type people and know their exact behavior. We aren't robots. So if you're interested in an individual you could get to know that individual and know what to expect from them. If you're seeking to come up with a scheme to explain everything the answer is 42.

[intj1999]

I noticed that he is no longer responding to this thread and I really wish he would because I need some entertainment and I need to learn how to "rule the world".

[MrJibbles]

Aren't INTJs like 1% of the population? Where are you finding so many of them?
some places say it's 1%, some say 3%, more often than not I see 2%.
1/50. I've meet 6 without meeting 300 people, so I consider that a lot since it beats the odds.

Wouldn't the obvious answer be that YOU are not an INTJ? We are the shadow type for ESFP, perhaps you act like an INTJ when you are under stress and are in fact an ESFP.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
No, I'm not an esfp.

The more time I spend with people the more drained I feel. I find relaxation when I'm zoning out, taking a nice long walk, etc. etc.. I could go on, but it's a waste of time [a thinking statement].

I'm a visual and auditory learner. I'm often thinking of the future and theoretical this and that, but my mistake comes because I don't think of right here, right now, enough.

Though some decisions are driven by emotion and how I feel they are never finalized by this. I wont do something if I don't think it makes sense. Remember, some doesn't mean most nor all. Just some. Technically some would mean less than or equal to 50%.

I hate being late. I really do. I generally don't go with the flow very well [hence I'm studying sociology]. I'd rather stick with the plan than wing it.

But, I do think INTJ's and all other types too naturally grow towards XXXX. So I take it as a compliment to be thought of as an esfp.


Ok, so what I know of social engineering is the following: You set up to accomplish a specific goal, but you purposely misinform your target of said goal, let's call it "goal". If the target is gullible and the "goal" seems worthy to the target. The target will attempt to help.... World Peace = Great "Goal"!

Now this forum can be analogous to a community (world) but only populated by individuals that were selected based on strict criteria.

Ok, the whole world peace thing is pretty ambiguous so I'm wondering if your aim is to see how you can impact interactions here. Best of luck

*hugs* NF
No matter if I say yes or no, people will believe what they want. Most will believe what makes sense. But, what am I doing here? Well, for example someone said that the cube in the dessert was something that can be found in a book called the game. I know of this book, but I never knew that it had filters like that inside of it. I've been pointed in the right direction.

Other than people throwing out new information I gain a lot of insight from NF's. Which I knew would be in high concentration here. If I ever did take over the world, I would set up a system that had me and an ENFP together. No decision would be finalized until both of us agreed it was O.K.. That way things would make sense, but they wouldn't be cold and heartless.

Why else? Think of the borg.....wait....fuck it, think of the borg. They're a collective mind. Each individual has it's own individual thoughts, but they all hear these individual thoughts, which gives them all a collect. Next they filter out the bad ideas from the good ideas and run with that. Only problem with them is that they're exaggerated in the.....fuck!!!

Just in....This is a double edged sword. I want to make people happy, simply be seeing what it is that'll make them happy and giving them that, but I don't want to assimilate people. That's what manipulation is.

Anyhow, there are various reason's to come here. I could go on and on, but I'll settle with the few I've said because I just don't feel like sitting here typing all day.

Okay, I get what you're saying. I understand why you brought up the INTJ now; I like to be thorough in my explanations, too. I understand the whole party plan and I don't see a problem with it as long as you're not putting cyanide in the punch. However, I'm still lost on how you're going to use this method to create world peace. Do you have some sort of global BBQ pool party planned where world leaders will get together knock back some beers and realize we're not that different after all? Or are you using the parties to realize the basics to the social system so you can implement them to the world social structure? It seems like you're being secretive with your overall plan or you haven't fully developed it yet. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious and I'm looking too much into it.

Conversions. For example, if you read Mystery Method the very beginning of the book mentions that he's dedicated his life to understanding people. But if you understand people by default you understand women. Through out the book it tells you basics for getting a girl to want you, and every so often says what's ethical and what's not, to enforce that you shouldn't be a selfish evil sociopath. Near the end of the book he mentions that if he's able to walk up to a girl that has all these things in the way that would be an obstacle in his path to get to the girl and he can get the girl every time anyway do you really think he feels nervous when he's confronted by a difficult person, or someone's trying to screw him out of a deal, or any other of life's daily social troubles?

If you can run a decent party and neutralize drama and make sure everyone's happy eventually you'll be able to do things like set up business meetings the same way. You just convert things a little bit.

Oh, my being analytical is fun. Are you concerned he is going to make it over here somehow?
I don't see what else (meaning predictable outcome by you) can happen if he finds out he is INTJ...
No. I just know what I've been able to do using the MBTI. Then I think about the bad things I could be doing with it. I think about all the shit that could go down if I was a bitter angry person who hated the world. And that kinda sucks. Considering all the things I CAN do, and all the doors knowing about MBTI opened for other things connected, I wouldn't want someone with the same capability as me but a different motive to have access to it. So I leave him in the blue.


Ok, i hate jumping to conclusions (well maybe not since I do it all the time) but given all the info provided by OP, I suspect he/she is a bit full of himself, possibly encouraged by his successes in the past, so perhaps manipulating an online community would be a great feat.

My other guess is, you're trying to set up conditions for measuring that elusive 5th aspect of personality. If so you probably shouldn't have mentioned that particular project, as that will probably cloud the data.





Josephine1012 added to this post, 0 minutes and 52 seconds later...


Well, shoot he ended up "catching" ENFP instead, major oops

No, I don't care to manipulate people online. It serves little purpose.
Yes I do want to find a 5 element to it.
I'll keep that for future reference.
ENFP's seem to be immune to INTJ manipulation as far as I've seen anyway.

I just read his other threads and he sounds like a sociopath to me, who thinks that he can manipulate situations. He seems to consider himself an expert at social interaction. Everything he states is stuff that almost anyone with life experience already knows, but does not use in such a methodical, manipulating way. I am not sure that he is a true INTJ because most INTJs would not consider using people.

I am an INTJ by the way.
I do know what I know and what I don't know. I know that I'm not someone who's the best ever at manipulation. I'm no expert. But, not to quote something you should already know or anything, but I found this on typelogic.com. Go ahead and read it.

"To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age...."

You, the outsider, seem to think that I'm arrogant.
The irony of it all is too much. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Anyway, you're also suffering from a flaw in intuition here. But that's normal considering you're intuitive. I can't recall what the flaw is. But it has a lot to do with association. You don't want me to be an INTJ because you're an INTJ and you don't like me. Since you don't like me you don't want to associate me with yourself. You say that most INTJ's would never consider using people. But the funniest thing about it is that you said MOST, not all.

Accept that I am an INTJ, which makes me, in a sense, very much like you. Hannibal Lecture is also an INTJ, and so is Black Heart from Ghost rider. Both used people quite a bit. Either way, come up with a better reason to say that I'm not an INTJ than that.

To kill two birds with one stone I'll ask you a question.
Why do you think I'm a sociopath? Tell me, with detail and quotes, why you think I'm such a bad person?

In closing, I came here because I don't consider myself an expert. If I did think I was an expert I wouldn't be here talking to people and directly asking for advice. Another reason I came here is because I used to have little to no social skills with I associate with being someone who'd rather read a book on economics than go to a raging party. Most INTJ's are like this. I hated it. I wanted to have social skills. So I know what it's like to be that way and wish no one was ever like that, so I do what I can to tell what I do know hoping that it will help someone out there who're not so happy.

bird one: I wanted to ask a question.
bird two: You wanted to be entertained.

Ok, so I'm not climbing out of this analyzing trap at all. I am quite literally caught, because here I am analyzing instead of being productive.

If you plan to use MBTI in your world domination scheme, it would be prudent to remember that MBTI as a model of a person is akin to plum pudding model of an atom (for those who absolutely <3 MBTI we can call it Bohr). Yes it describes certain functions quite well, but obviously a human is way too complex to say that there only 16 different types of people.

This brings me to my next point ....



there are probably even more than 5 things to measure a personality (doing some math that gives us 25 different types of people), but the thing to remember -- these tests are either self report, or you're relying on a biased party to type someone. So the more elements you introduce, the more you are prone to error.

Also the measure you're trying to introduce, separating smart people from not so smart people, sounds like an IQ test.

Best of luck with your social experiment.






Josephine1012 added to this post, 5 minutes and 35 seconds later...

what I'm trying to say you can have a general guideline MBTI is a good one, but you can not type people and know their exact behavior. We aren't robots. So if you're interested in an individual you could get to know that individual and know what to expect from them. If you're seeking to come up with a scheme to explain everything the answer is 42.

If there are 5 slots that each have 2 options 2x2x2x2x2 = 32.
But yes, I know MBTI is flawed. It's good enough to serve a purpose. A general concept is better to use than rely on one thing as a crutch.

Both my brothers are INTP. I can't stand my older brother. He's an asshole. He thinks he knows everything and he's conceited. My little brother is very easy to get along with. I can talk to him for days and days. They're both very very different from each other.

I know quite a few ESFP's. Two seem like they're exact opposites, but they're still esfp.

So, yes, I'm aware MBTI is flawed. But it's not useless.
If you didn't have the enfp up there I'd be weirded out because you remind me of my best friend Megan. She always has something to say that completes my thoughts. You do the same thing. I'll have something that makes perfect sense but bothers me a little bit, then she comes along and says something that's very insightful and everything's fine again. You seem to do that too.

But she's an ENFP. Which is why if I ever start my own business, or take over the world, or whatever, I'll make sure I have Megan with me, and no decision will be final unless we both agree.

[Josephine1012]

If there are 5 slots that each have 2 options 2x2x2x2x2 = 32.
But yes, I know MBTI is flawed. It's good enough to serve a purpose. A general concept is better to use than rely on one thing as a crutch.

Both my brothers are INTP. I can't stand my older brother. He's an asshole. He thinks he knows everything and he's conceited. My little brother is very easy to get along with. I can talk to him for days and days. They're both very very different from each other.

I know quite a few ESFP's. Two seem like they're exact opposites, but they're still esfp.

So, yes, I'm aware MBTI is flawed. But it's not useless.
If you didn't have the enfp up there I'd be weirded out because you remind me of my best friend Megan. She always has something to say that completes my thoughts. You do the same thing. I'll have something that makes perfect sense but bothers me a little bit, then she comes along and says something that's very insightful and everything's fine again. You seem to do that too.

But she's an ENFP. Which is why if I ever start my own business, or take over the world, or whatever, I'll make sure I have Megan with me, and no decision will be final unless we both agree.


Good lord, I am the last person who would need to be in cahoots with anybody to take over the world....

I just f'ed up a simple permutation after multiple years in advanced math in physics.

I highly recommend you rethink this tactic





Josephine1012 added to this post, 32 minutes and 27 seconds later...


No, I don't care to manipulate people online. It serves little purpose.
Yes I do want to find a 5 element to it.
I'll keep that for future reference.
ENFP's seem to be immune to INTJ manipulation as far as I've seen anyway.



Although my type isn't supposed to be susceptible to direct manipulation. They say it isn't above flattery. Another interesting thing about ENFPs I've read somewhere that they study and absorb people the way others read and assimilate books.

Lots _NTJs in my life, lord knows why.... This is cryptic, but I'm sure you can figure it out.

[MrJibbles]

Good lord, I am the last person who would need to be in cahoots with anybody to take over the world....

I just f'ed up a simple permutation after multiple years in advanced math in physics.

I highly recommend you rethink this tactic





Josephine1012 added to this post, 32 minutes and 27 seconds later...



Although my type isn't supposed to be susceptible to direct manipulation. They say it isn't above flattery. Another interesting thing about ENFPs I've read somewhere that they study and absorb people the way others read and assimilate books.

Lots _NTJs in my life, lord knows why.... This is cryptic, but I'm sure you can figure it out.

oddly, I can't figure it out....well I haven't figured it out.

If I was to be in some position of power and control I'd want an ENFP by my side to make sure that things were still kind warm and caring instead of simply systematic and heartless.

I often catch myself, when I don't have an NF around, nearly doing some stupid shit that only a heartless machine or a sociopath would do. I rethink it and feel like shit before I go through with it, but this whole process goes by a lot faster when someone's around who's an NFP. They read people like an open book.

Lucky me [well lucky other people], I live with an INFP and my best friends an ENFP.

[Josephine1012]

Well, I guess now you also have a chance to practice your intuitive and analytical skills.

[MrJibbles]

Are you saying you can read me the same way I can read a book.
There could be something else I'm missing.....
Any how, what.....um....hmm....
Hidden somewhere you left something in there that I'm not sure I found.
Messages or something like that.

Something like that.

[Josephine1012]

Are you saying you can read me the same way I can read a book.
There could be something else I'm missing.....
Any how, what.....um....hmm....
Hidden somewhere you left something in there that I'm not sure I found.
Messages or something like that.

Something like that.

I can not read you at all. I don't know you. You're obviously a very intelligent person. I can only guess by the mention of the cube and your overall demeanor that you're not above manipulation. Telling me I'm difficult to manipulate, is ENFP specific manipulation. Also known as flattery.

Obviously to really understand you I would have to know you, etc. But since you don't know me you are starting out with simple MBTI approach, no? That much I can literally read from your post.

That would probably work, if I wasn't already alerted by your previous statements... (this is off topic: you sound more like ENTJ. They have more of an interest in the world as a whole, instead of just personal self - improvement. You're too interested in the workings of other people to be INTJ)

[MrJibbles]

I can not read you at all. I don't know you. You're obviously a very intelligent person. I can only guess by the mention of the cube and your overall demeanor that you're not above manipulation. Telling me I'm difficult to manipulate, is ENFP specific manipulation. Also known as flattery.

Obviously to really understand you I would have to know you, etc. But since you don't know me you are starting out with simple MBTI approach, no? That much I can literally read from your post.

That would probably work, if I wasn't already alerted by your previous statements... (this is off topic: you sound more like ENTJ. They have more of an interest in the world as a whole, instead of just personal self - improvement. You're too interested in the workings of other people to be INTJ)

I'm in no way shape or form an E. This whole thing started because I wanted to improve my social skills. I continue to read about things like body language, social skills, etc. etc. etc.. because I improve myself in the process.

If it came off as flattery it wasn't meant to be. I just find that ENFP's are difficult to manipulate so I usually don't bother trying.

Cube in the dessert doesn't manipulate at all. It tells you things that an ENFP would probably know anyway. It reads a person.

Ethically, I seek the end not the means. If by killing, manipulating, or otherwise doing something ethically wrong to someone it'll make everyone else have a better life I'll probably fuck over that one person.

For example I would kill one guy if I knew he was going to go off and kill 10 innocent people if I didn't. But if I knew he was going to go off and kill 10 assholes who make life hell for everyone else I'd let him go off and do that.

So I use "morally wrong" tools sparingly. When I do something like that it doesn't make it any better, it's still wrong, but it's more ethically productive.

And look at the first word of the first five sentences I said in my above post.

[punkyplatypus]

Conversions. For example, if you read Mystery Method the very beginning of the book mentions that he's dedicated his life to understanding people. But if you understand people by default you understand women. Through out the book it tells you basics for getting a girl to want you, and every so often says what's ethical and what's not, to enforce that you shouldn't be a selfish evil sociopath. Near the end of the book he mentions that if he's able to walk up to a girl that has all these things in the way that would be an obstacle in his path to get to the girl and he can get the girl every time anyway do you really think he feels nervous when he's confronted by a difficult person, or someone's trying to screw him out of a deal, or any other of life's daily social troubles?

If you can run a decent party and neutralize drama and make sure everyone's happy eventually you'll be able to do things like set up business meetings the same way. You just convert things a little bit.


Alright. Now I have a basic understanding of your focus, your goal, and your method. However there are still a few things I do not understand.

What drives you to desire world peace? The fame, satisfaction of knowing the full extent of your influence on the world, or are you just a good & humanistic person?

Is this really a possible endeavor? And if it is, how long do you think this world peace last and how do you plan on maintaining it?

What obstacles stand in the way of you and your goal?

How are you qualified to complete such a task? Do you hold a position of power or do you consider yourself about average?

Are you recording your data or are you just committing it to memory?

How many more parties do you have to throw for practice before you can actually apply what you've learned to to test your theory?

Once world peace is achieved, what's your next step?

What do you really expect from this forum?

[MrJibbles]

Alright. Now I have a basic understanding of your focus, your goal, and your method. However there are still a few things I do not understand.

What drives you to desire world peace? The fame, satisfaction of knowing the full extent of your influence on the world, or are you just a good & humanistic person?
I always wanted it when I was a little kid. It's not for the fame or satisfaction of influencing all those people. It's because it would make more sense if everyone got along than if they didn't.

Is this really a possible endeavor? And if it is, how long do you think this world peace last and how do you plan on maintaining it?
Chances are it would last for just a little while no matter what was done to ensure it. Opportunist are always there to fuck things up.

What obstacles stand in the way of you and your goal?
Opportunist and many other things. So many things I don't feel like listing them all.

How are you qualified to complete such a task? Do you hold a position of power or do you consider yourself about average?
Yes I am, but the thing is: So are you and everyone else on the planet. One just needs to apply themself enough.

Are you recording your data or are you just committing it to memory?
Memory, I'm not that serious about it all to be honest.

How many more parties do you have to throw for practice before you can actually apply what you've learned to to test your theory?
None, I could already apply it. All I've learned is that you need to know what a person wants and set things up accordingly. Knowing other things like how they think is always useful.

Once world peace is achieved, what's your next step?
maintaining it, if I get there in the first place.

What do you really expect from this forum?
HAHAHAHA!!!! um.....fun and entertainment.

[punkyplatypus]

At first I was skeptical of your motives. Now, though I'm never 100% certain of anything, I believe you mean no harm. I can't say I approve of the manipulation aspect, but I'd be a hypocrite to condemn you for it. Not that I'm proud of it, but I've manipulated with less honorable ends in mind and I'll probably do so again in the future. As for your method, I doubt it'll work. I'm not saying you should give up, but there are too many variables to assume one set is going to act like another. But hell, if you're making other people happy then you must be doing something right.

I also think that even if I vehemently disagreed with what you were doing, it's not like I could do anything to stop you from doing what you think is right. With that I have a word of advice: pay attention to your control groups and the effects they have on each other when bringing them together. True group A & group B are getting along great, but is group B corrupting group A in some way? For example, group B introduces heroin to group A. They may seem happier together, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was the best thing that could have happened.

Anyways, good luck. I'll keep an eye out for "WORLD PEACE ACHIEVED" in the newspaper. :cheesy:

[VinceVanGo]

... I often catch myself, when I don't have an NF around, nearly doing some stupid shit that only a heartless machine or a sociopath would do. I rethink it and feel like shit before I go through with it, ...

So you are concerned that you are a sociopath. You seemed to say in a previous post that you are not. Just because you stop before going through with something is irrelevant. Sociopathic thoughts are just that.

Reading your posts reminds me of someone I used to know. He was very manipulative, and I hung around way too long trying to figure out what his motives and goals were. I finally realized that there were none. The constant manipulation was the goal. As this thread goes on and on I am coming to the same conclusion.

It appears you are going to keep mixing it up by placing straw men and introducing irrelevant information to distract and mislead everyone from the fact that you are saying absolutely nothing. An INTJ can clearly state their case if they so choose. I actually said that to my former friend once: "You have just talked for ten minutes and said absolutely nothing." LOL!!

Manipulation for me is second only to murdering my cat. Doing it to me invokes my wrath. I usually proceed with tearing the person apart with all the things I had noticed and filed away about them throughout the relationship. And then I end the relationship forever. No going back.

[Andrew Popovici]

wow that was a long post back there Mr. jibbles. I've definitely lost intrest in this topic
a while ago, but on a different note, what's wrong with human experiments? Muhuhahahaha!

[blueback]

I've meet 6 without meeting 300 people, so I consider that a lot since it beats the odds.

You've kept track of how many people you've met and what type they all were?

someone said that the cube in the dessert was something that can be found in a book called the game. I know of this book, but I never knew that it had filters like that inside of it. I've been pointed in the right direction.

The Game is a good book, but it's a story, not an instruction manual.

If I ever did take over the world...No decision would be finalized until both of us agreed

He he. . .that sounds like an INTJ. Even if one of us took over the entire world we'd want someone else there to shield us from some of the craziness of being in charge.

If you can run a decent party and neutralize drama and make sure everyone's happy eventually you'll be able to do things like set up business meetings the same way. You just convert things a little bit.

Check this out and let me know what you think To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You say that most INTJ's would never consider using people. But the funniest thing about it is that you said MOST, not all.

I think you'll find that there is less concern here for precision in language than you might have expected.

I wanted to have social skills. So I know what it's like to be that way and wish no one was ever like that, so I do what I can to tell what I do know hoping that it will help someone out there who're not so happy.

I hear ya'. The problem is that people are still people, even if they tend to stratify along the MBTI fault lines. And people, as a rule, don't change. They want to like who they are and at the same time they want to get more of the things that make them happy. However, if they have to alter something about themselves to get what they want that must mean that they don't like who they are now. If you like yourself then why would you ever change? If you don't like yourself why would you ever think you were capable of changing?

A general concept is better to use than rely on one thing as a crutch.

Until you gather data about that one thing. When you don't know anything about a person you have to predict their future actions based on concepts. Once you know what they've done in the past, however, that is a better predictor of what they will do in the future.

So, yes, I'm aware MBTI is flawed. But it's not useless.

An 80% solution now is better than a 100% solution too late.