INTJs and Math..

[Kfbr]

I've read that math is an INTJ's playground and understand why it should be. However, I've always had problems with algebra. I failed pre algebra in Junior High and Algebra twice in High School and now I'm taking the bare minimum algebra class in college to graduate with a degree and I'm having the hardest time of my life. Just pulled two all nighters in a row for a 1050 level math class and got a C on the test, terribly pissed off right now.

On the contrast, I can sleep through an English class or political science class but god help me I can't solve for 'X'. I can whip out a 10 page research paper in just a few hours and ace it. I'm about 65-70% right brained and I think this is why I'm so terrible at algebra and can do geometry so easily.

Is this just me or does anyone else out there really blow at Math?

[Headstrong]

I really liked math up until my sophmore year in high school. I had some crappy teachers from then on who let us slack off a lot. So, I never bothered to do the homework at home or understand it. I did just well enough to get an A or a mid B in the classes and I was happy. Currently I'm in a remedial math class for college and it's such a bore. I remember learning all of the material, but I still manage to get a good bit of it wrong. Geometry, Trig, and Calc are my stronger math classes. Algebra II and III are horrible.

[NoahAddle]

Hmmm... Most of the time, math is my friend. I like algebra. The methods of solving the problems are pretty standard and the answers can be checked pretty easily too. If you like, why don't you post a problem or two you're having trouble with? Explain what you're thinking as you're trying to solve the problem. If other posters don't jump in to post before me, I'll be happy to try to help you understand what's going on. Believe me, this stuff isn't that bad once you get the 'aha' moment.

[Figmentum]

I loathe math. But for an odd reason, I excel in it. It repeats too much.

[justmeiguess]

Maths is not one of my strong points - especially since I have done hardly any for about five years now. Where English and language in general comes easily and naturally to me, maths is more of an uphill slog. It took me an eternity to figure out how fractions worked, the same with algebra, but then something clicked and they turned out to be the easier parts on the exam paper. I know that might not seem to be much consolation, but the trick with algebra is to memorise the different types of formulas for use in different types of questions. The formula always tends to stay the smae, with just the numbers changing. I hope that helps. Now if only I could get my head around statistics...

As for maths being an INTJs playground, I think that perhaps I use language in a similar way, by learning and applying rules etc. (if that makes any sense).

[logan235711]

I think one of the problems that most people have pointed out is the wide variety of teaching methods for mathematics. But to be blunt one could say this about any subject.

Mathematics tends to apply itself to a certain rigour above other disciplines that forces the differences in teaching to stick out more whether for better or worse. However, because mathematics probably requires at least a near-graduate level before the real intricacies can start to be seen, it is then apparent why there can be so many teachers who educate their students using methods that show a lack of this deeper understanding.

One of the beauties of mathematics is that there can be multiple ways to a correct solution and often times it is not taught in this creative manner, or if it is the teacher allows too much freedom that doesn't familiarize the students with the more basic concepts that are enabling this varied approach to work. In either case, because of the rigour of mathematics, it should that an equal level of rigour in teaching mathematics should be applied as well. However, the lack of this rigour in teaching forces many people to suffer as a result.

One line of argument is regarding the notion of switching mathematics teachers as one progresses through school. One could easily argue that when one is switching so often it doesn't allow one to approach it for any length of time before having to switch methods that another teacher is imposing. The counter-argument that some might relate to is "I didn't appreciate and understand mathematics until X teacher taught me." The common story of having more points of view in which to approach mathematics enables a person to see mathematics more broadly than otherwise. Both of these arguments are simplistic and a lot more is to be said, but this is the beginning of the basic dichotomy in this area of thought.

Lastly, it is an entirely different issue which concerns itself with mathematical enjoyment. Having a teacher who can teach the concepts properly and a teacher who creates student enjoyment are two issues that constitute the fuller pictures of peoples' general outlook of mathematics when learning it.

To conclude I should say that the greatest enjoyment will most likely come when one takes mathematics up as a personal endeavor. Finding and learning mathematics at one's own pace and using one's own methods will more than likely lead to a better understanding than having others teach the material as personal experience with mathematics grows.

[Gabrielle]

Math (for me) is basically this:

Case presented.
Extrapolate the underlying theory.
Apply the said theory to new case.

Maybe it's because of this view that I'm better at Physics than Math. But basically, with correct kind of training anyone can be good at math (I'd know, trust me). If you solve enough problems (I'm talking about 50 to 200 here...), you'd start seeing patterns in how to isolate x's and y's. After that it's just plug chug. It becomes a habit... nowadays I just look at a differential equation and my hand goes to autopilot to solve it.

Practice makes everything near-perfect. :-)

[Kfbr]

I think my problem is I tend to see the end and not all the tiny little steps in between.

I see a problem, and I want to to like 5 things at once, I don't remember a specific order and it gets all mucked up. I'm not doing rocket science here, just quadratic equations.

This kills an INTJ.. maximum effort with little results.. a C+, fuck that :D

[Gabrielle]

Just WRITE stuff down! Usually my scratchwork is so messy that I can't read them after I get the answer. Write everything down as you think along.

Also, showing work usually earns you partial credit :-)

[OneBadMother]

My INTJ friend can sleep through the most advanced calculus, and tends to be able to rederive equations in his head. His math major is going to be finished two years early. I think that his mathematical ability is more of an individual thing than a type thing, though.

[Heretic]

My major required classes in calculus 1/2, multivariable calculus, and differential equations. I love math. :freak:

I would've taken more if I hadn't done a dual major (or if I went to graduate school).

[thegnat]

Oh man I enjoy math. And I'm good at it. A solved problem mathematically is beautiful....

I just can't do it all day. Depends though. I did a calc review book over the summer for fun sometimes....

[ScottH]

Hi,

Your struggle with math might be your teachers, not your aptitude. I've taught many people math--friends in a situation like yours--and found that with most, there's a "way" of explaining things that suddenly causes an epiphany for them. Each needed to hear the material "just right" so that it made sense to them, and then there was no stopping them.

I'm self taught, or rather book taught. I've never had a college level math class, but loved the topic enough to learn it on my own. I have found the same to be true of me (needing to hear it said the right way), so I tend to "saturate study" new topics. That is, I gather as many different sources on the topic as I can find and read them all. At least one of them seems to go in more easily, connect with my understanding, and make the topic make sense. If you hear the same thing said enough different ways, there's a point at which all uncertainty and ambiguity just goes away.

I love that point :-)

[thecraig]

Math is logical. The reason it is assumed that INTJs would be good at it is just because of that logical basis. We are usually creatures of logic.

And as far as not knowing how you solved for X.... that is intuition. My teachers used to get on me for not writing out my steps too. It used to agrivate me that they would make me waste time doing something I just knew was pointless. Later with more complicated equations it became more important to write out the steps for me, but I still wanted to skip some of the "steps" because they seemed so obvious so as not to need being mentioned.

I love to manipulate numbers. For instance my daughter was having some difficulty learning to multiply by 5 so I taught her how I do it. I devide by 2 and then multiply by ten.

[radioactivez0r]

I would also say it's not really type-based. To some extent, you either "get" it or you don't, but it can also be learned with the right method. For me, math was always pretty easy as long as it stayed in the realm of equations and numbers - Calculus III and some aspects of earlier Calc stopped making sense when I had to figure out how to approach a problem, what kind of problem it was, what type of equation might work, etc....Calc III just lost me because it seemed to get too theoretical. That's probably more of the INTJ.

[Solaris]

I loathe math. But for an odd reason, I excel in it. It repeats too much.

That's pretty much me. Math just annoyed me because it was easy. I oddly liked Trigonometry when I took it in college -- I think it was the teacher. He was a crotchety old crank who would dish crap out and I'd give it right back (and did my homework and did well on tests), so we got along.

[lucki]

Personally, I find INTP or ENTP to be the best personality types to be a (pure)mathematician. This is because their functions point almost in a parallel direction to the way math is done which consists of:
1) Finding a pattern in objects of interest
2) Abstracting the patterns into logical formalism.
3) go back to 1

1) is predominantly (Ne) function and 2) an (Ti) function.

I think INTJ, ENTJ do math in a different way. We tend to accumulate a lot of data and techniques for solving problems(Te function) to realize a certain vision or theory that well up in our imagination(Ni).

In philosophy, or literature this kind of approach is perhaps more fitting as these field predominantly deal with a logical expression of mental and subjective patterns and images, but the mathematical objects are too well-defined to be dealt efficiently in this way.

On the other hand, I think E/INTJ make a good math teachers because we are intuitively aware of the mental process of problem solving and are effective at using analogies to explain ideas.

[stasis]

I can't really do arithmetic operations without making errors, which makes mathematics testing a bother. No matter how many times I review the problem there's bound to be an arithmetic error in there somewhere. Everything else is fine though. Replace the numbers with variables and we're in business. Oh yeah.

[mind_wander]

I don't like math, but I can still do it.

[Agogo]

Brrrrrrr. **shivers at the thought of math**
I think I'd rather do something more creative the look at MATH problems!

[BloozeGit]

In my current postgrad studies and future career, math is a necessary evil. Fourier and Laplace are the 2 names that get the most mileage apart from DEs and complex analysis. I grit my teeth and plow through them, understanding just enough about the how's and why's and then I plug them into Matlab. The greater part of the battle is in understanding the results and knowing what to do when it doesn't work out, rather than being able to do every problem under the sun.

Even in my undergrad mech engrg course, I avoided numerical subjects and focused on more "tangible/practical" aspects of engineering. I can probably work a milling machine and lathe better than 90% of my cohort (that doesn't imply I'm any real good at it!), but they most likely have the upper hand in maths.

I look at it this way: My job as an engineer is to come up with algebraic equations that decribe/model the system or problem. Math majors are the ones who come up with formulae to solve them and make my life easy. Computing majors write programs like Matlab to make it even easier. Sure it would be great to be good at both the mathematical and practical aspects of it, but if I had to have just one it would be the latter, since there are ways to get around (most of) the math that you would use in a practical situation. Don't despair!

That's assuming you DO want to be an engineer....and not a math major :P

[Bossy Mom]

I have never liked math, especially geometry. My teacher in high school used to drive me crazy by making me prove everything. I drew the problem and go the answer -- let's get on with it! Give me literature or foreign languages any day!

[logan235711]

Brrrrrrr. **shivers at the thought of math**
I think I'd rather do something more creative the look at MATH problems!
math is very creative, probably the most freedom you will get to include out of any academic field

[rwyatt365]

I've always loved math and was good at it too!

BloozeGit: I'm a ME and I thought it was the best of all worlds; math, practical application, mechanical systems (gear 'n stuff) - who wouldn't love it!!

[BloozeGit]

I can certainly appreciate math when it can be seen happening in a mechanical system (vibration, resonances, truss systems, tolerances, 3D modelling etc) and thankfully, in an ME job that's not too rare!

When it starts becoming math for math's sake and European names start popping up all over the place (I remember learning stuff in high school that I've never used since then), I start daydreaming about big metal things that go rrrrrrrrr.....

[thegnat]

I have never liked math, especially geometry. My teacher in high school used to drive me crazy by making me prove everything. I drew the problem and go the answer -- let's get on with it! Give me literature or foreign languages any day!

Oh god, I loved proofs in high school geometry. I love seeing all the logic displayed. It's kind of beautiful in a way. Just like any solved math problem IMO.

[Jay]

I can't say I... well, actually. I suppose I did like math. I loved Physics math in high school. You know, the stuff that was actually practical and applicable to (for the most part) real life scenarios. Now, compare Physics to the random junk they had me doing in my "Math" class? Ugh.

I used to try and make my one Math teacher say the word "parabola" as many times as I could in class. Simply because she was Polish and her accent made it sound really funny...

[Ian]

Mathematics (not including statistics which is just b/s) is about the only thing I was good at at school - eventually did a degree in maths. My first choice was to study physics, but I found the science courses too imprecise and uncertain. Generally what I saw in these courses was - "this is what we see, this is what we measure, so we believe that these things are happening, but it is only a theory -there is no proof".

[GOD]

I've read that math is an INTJ's playground and understand why it should be. However, I've always had problems with algebra. I failed pre algebra in Junior High and Algebra twice in High School and now I'm taking the bare minimum algebra class in college to graduate with a degree and I'm having the hardest time of my life. Just pulled two all nighters in a row for a 1050 level math class and got a C on the test, terribly pissed off right now.

On the contrast, I can sleep through an English class or political science class but god help me I can't solve for 'X'. I can whip out a 10 page research paper in just a few hours and ace it. I'm about 65-70% right brained and I think this is why I'm so terrible at algebra and can do geometry so easily.

Is this just me or does anyone else out there really blow at Math?

I remember working out co-ordinate geometry when I was about 8-9 and teaching the class because my useless teacher didn't understand it.

I think Math is boring (We used to make it fun as kids by racing to see who could complete the set questions in the quickest time and then we used to help the other kids). People that teach Math kill any "passion" for it and kill any divergent applicational thought to it. When you do maths you turn your brain off. I'd expect the Sensing types would be best at Math to be honest. It would frustrate the NT's too much.

[WavesSootheMe]

I got straight As in math all through high school, but I don't think that I ever considered it my playground. In college, math was not a priority and I was annoyed with professors that a) treated me like a math major (if I had to derive an equation I was gone, not because I couldn't but because I didn't have the time to learn it in that depth) or b) treated me like I had all the time in the world to do frivolous projects like finding the volume of an in-and-out cup (I wouldn't put up with any homework beyond practice problems). I shopped around until I found professors I could appreciate and then got straight As there too. I think I was really good at the actual math part, but applying numbers to situations (i.e. complex word problems like in physics or general chemistry) was a bit difficult for me. I prefer puzzles. There's my playground. I loved organic chemistry.

[snoogit]

I had a much easer time in Geometry and Trig then I did Algebra. I was taught under the "Chicago Math" program, just as all the old teachers were retiring, so it was really bad at that point. When an old teacher retires your task is more like busy work then actual learning, and that drove me away from Math for a while. I too had to take an algebra class in college, and Had a teacher that was a blast to work with, ended up getting some of my best math grades in college. In fact I ended up getting a lot of my best grades in college.

[Nomad]

Yucky I say blah.

That being said, I can do trig in my head, as well as geometry.I never took a class in either. I can't prove it on paper, but the shells always landed in the right place.

-Nomad

[BloozeGit]

Yucky I say blah.

That being said, I can do trig in my head, as well as geometry.I never took a class in either. I can't prove it on paper, but the shells always landed in the right place.

-Nomad

That's a comforting, yet discomforting thought for a front line grunt!

[deicruxified]

I've read that math is an INTJ's playground and understand why it should be. However, I've always had problems with algebra. I failed pre algebra in Junior High and Algebra twice in High School and now I'm taking the bare minimum algebra class in college to graduate with a degree and I'm having the hardest time of my life. Just pulled two all nighters in a row for a 1050 level math class and got a C on the test, terribly pissed off right now.

On the contrast, I can sleep through an English class or political science class but god help me I can't solve for 'X'. I can whip out a 10 page research paper in just a few hours and ace it. I'm about 65-70% right brained and I think this is why I'm so terrible at algebra and can do geometry so easily.

Is this just me or does anyone else out there really blow at Math?

i had the same experience as you did. i find algebra a waterloo but i pass.. somehow. but strangely, i'm good at trigonometry, algebra, physics and computer programming (we had visual basic in highschool... don't ask me if i can still remember any of them...) what's funny is that pre-college when we took the national aptitude and multiple intelligences/interests, i score superior in math and ties with science and language which is weird. then came symbollic logic which they say is similar to algebra. i thought i'd fail the class and delay my graduation but i scored top in the class. i got highly addicted to it to the point that i was solving symbollic logic problems while i'm taking a dump... err call me freak ok? and then not only do i come up with one solution but whatever possible solution i can think of. my prof thought i was a robot back then... two terms later, there was analytical philosophy which made me realize, i want to take up physics.

i was thinking of giving myself this christmas an algebra book and self-study then calculus because i realized i am a late bloomer in algebra.

[DeepPurple]

I was very good at math in middle school. In high school I was average in math. There was this one time when my math teacher was trying to teach me a problem and I came up with the answer by doing it my way. After I showed him how I came up with it, he decided to show me the "correct" way and I was lost again.

[The Many]

I am pretty good at maths, got straight A's and all that - but I still hate it. Primarily due to teachers, but also due to an eternal repetition of the same problems, over and over again. Also my mother forcing me to learn the answers to all multiplications up to ten (when I was ten years old myself, mind) was probably not a good thing either. When we did this in class I always finished twice or three times as fast as everyone else and got every solution correct... quite pointless, and extremely boring (even though I learnt pretty fast). Was always better at teaching myself, for instance I worked my way through an entire course where I had been doing quite badly for two weeks before some national exams, but I ended up finishing with the highest grade possible in the course due to my results on that test.

[Lensman]

Hmmm.... math I think I've never approached it hte way the texts said but always ended up with the right answer. In Highschool Geometry during proofs I would do everything to include CPCTC somewhere in it and I angered my Calc teacher by refusing to work in anything but binary and then converting back into base 10 when I had an answer.

[RoqueBear]

I liked my higher level math classes.... Thinking beyond just numbers and answers.... Turning it more into systems and possibilities for far more complex applications... Though, that really is the basis of my INTJ personality.... I was always the guy in class asking the questions about, whats next... I was told to slow down, thats next chapter..

[INTJohn]

One of my degrees is in Mathematics; the other in Geodetic Engineering - Math is just a tool that I use in my Profession and life in general on a daily basis. I have no emotional attatchment to it...........

INTJohn

[AresX9]

I'm taking both Physics and Pre-Cal, and what's even better is that they're back to back. Physics in the morning, Pre-Cal leading to lunch, then AP American History to finish off the day.

My Physics teacher gives us worksheets that aren't following the textbook, nor is he using it. He's throwing off the entire class and there's only 3 students in the class (Myself included) then manage to keep up.

[supreme_nogi]

i used to hate maths until i had a great teacher and started becoming good at it

[bubbles]

I got straight As in math all through high school, but I don't think that I ever considered it my playground. In college, math was not a priority and I was annoyed with professors that a) treated me like a math major (if I had to derive an equation I was gone, not because I couldn't but because I didn't have the time to learn it in that depth) or b) treated me like I had all the time in the world to do frivolous projects like finding the volume of an in-and-out cup (I wouldn't put up with any homework beyond practice problems). I shopped around until I found professors I could appreciate and then got straight As there too. I think I was really good at the actual math part, but applying numbers to situations (i.e. complex word problems like in physics or general chemistry) was a bit difficult for me. I prefer puzzles. There's my playground. I loved organic chemistry.

I kind of want my professors to treat me like a math major since I like learning things in depth, but the math and science professors here just treat everybody like an engineer and tell us that we really need to know the basics to apply it.

I really don't know whether I'm good at math since people seem to assume I'm good at math since I'm good at learning the concepts and solving problems, but in reality, I make a lot of "stupid mistakes" on exams and was too lazy to do some of the homeworks in high school (which resulted in B's and A-'s). Now I'm thinking about majoring in math...

[Laura_Palmer]

I loved math all through school, especially algebra and geometry. Solving complex problems was actually very exciting for me (and still is). Heck, I was even on the Math Team! Huh, didn't realize how nerdy I was!

[cylontoaster]

For the most part I've done well in math, though I am generally unmotivated in the subject.

I often found myself frustrated by dense mathematical notation and trying to express my ideas in it. It was like trying to understand and then write an essay in a foreign language, which at times had been randomly brandished in front of my face. In fact, no teacher saw fit to demonstrate how to do proofs properly until I took discrete math.

In any case, the real problem with math is that it takes so much foundation in order to get to the more interesting concepts. Most of my math classes would focus on the mechanics and little details of how to solve a problem without wondering why we ought to care about such problems in the first place. (And for the most part we would never use it again outside of class, or if we did, provided that we understood the concept, we could have just written an application to do such tedious calculation for us.) Since most of my classes have been taught this way, without clear purpose in the subject and application in the real world, it killed my interest in it rather early on.

[Drayakir]

I know that I hated trig, but was good in algebra, and okay with geometry as long as I had to do no proof.

Although to be fair, I haven't taken calc yet, so I'll see what comes of that. Then again, I'm a bio major, so I doubt I'll need it for more than a) growth charts, b) crossover linkages.

[Danisty]

I'm about 65-70% right brained and I think this is why I'm so terrible at algebra and can do geometry so easily.Geometry came naturally for me, but I didn't understand algebra until I took chemistry. I'm not bad at math now, but I really just don't like it very much. I think there is a big problem with math teachers in general though. They are all very good at math and because of that, they aren't very good at explaining it to people who don't have a natural talent for it.

[Splittet]

I like math, especially on my own terms. I was talented, but didn't really like to study it at university level, but I haven't liked studying in school for a while anyhow. I love statistics, and I think I mastered geometry and algebra about equally well.

I feel math is one of the fields I am most creative in. I did very well in a math competition with tasks outside what we learned in school, better for example than a straight A student with better math grades than me. I felt I was more creative than him, and it showed in these tests. Also my pragmatic problem solving skills came in handy, and I was able to produce a lot of good guesses, based on only hunches and little concrete.

I love to use math under different circumstances, and I still frequently look up some of the stuff I learned in school, because I need to use it for something.

[Booko]

I did very well in math but sometimes had to force myself to do the work. If I can't find some practical use for it, I sit there wondering why I should bother and it's hard to get motivated.

And despite all the math that I've had, the most mathematics I've needed in chemistry is...proportions. Uh, I learned that in what...4th grade? OK OK, I have to calculate percentage yields too. Big whoop.

Linear algebra came in handy for the software engineering, though, and that was the mathematical field I loved the most.

[AresX9]

Time to add some more to this...

Now I prefer Pre-Cal over Physics. In Physics, there's no basic standard on where to start. I think there is, judging from my textbook. My teacher just hasn't shown us a way to attack every problem. It's even worse when you're an INTP, as you know so many different ways to approach something due to the rigorous information intake that one simple method that you can come up with might not be the right way to solve a problem.

Pre-Cal I am excelling in. I really understand what's going on, compared to Algebra II last year. Ironic, yes, indeed. Understand a higher level math more than a lower level one. Currently learning Analytic Trig and we're doing Verifications using Fundamental Identities.

You know, stuff like:
cos u= 1/sec u
cot u= cos u/sin u
sin^2u+cos^2u=1
sin u= 1 /csc u

[gandalph]

mathmatics is a great tool to solve many problems. i think alot of people have a bad perception of math expecially where number and letters are mixed trying to figure out the unknow. its all in the approach.

[steph with a capital T]

The only reason i like math (besides the fact that it isn't hard so i have no reason to dislike it) is probably not because of the strict logic needed, but a more quixotic reason. Long equations and figurings in calculus are known for their incomprehensible appearance; but once the comprehension is acquired, whole new interpretations of the universe are readily available. You can revolutionize your mental model of the universe with repetitious squiggles with hidden rules and implications-- all very profound and inspiring.
Otherwise, a total bore, haha. I never pay attention in trig, and comprehension comes easily.

[Heero]

The only reason i like math (besides the fact that it isn't hard so i have no reason to dislike it) is probably not because of the strict logic needed, but a more quixotic reason. Long equations and figurings in calculus are known for their incomprehensible appearance; but once the comprehension is acquired, whole new interpretations of the universe are readily available. You can revolutionize your mental model of the universe with repetitious squiggles with hidden rules and implications-- all very profound and inspiring.
Otherwise, a total bore, haha. I never pay attention in trig, and comprehension comes easily.

Then you haven't taken advanced math. Honestly as a mathematician I find the "squiggles" comment rather offensive.

I'm a mathematician, I'm an INTP, so I don't know if that counts for anything, but I have enjoyed math since calculus. So...yeah. Good stuff. The logic appeals to me, the systems of proof appeal to me, and the inherent beauty of pure math as well as the usefulness of applied math appeals to me.

[Booko]

You know, it occurs to me that it's my INTP husband that likes to do the mathematical puzzles. Same for my son.

I'm not that fond of mathematical puzzles for their own sake. I do like puzzles, but it seems like they have to have an end product to hold my interest.

So I don't do sudoku, but I do jigsaw puzzles (you get a nice picture as a result and I find doing them mentally relaxing).

I love spectroscopy, which is really just "puzzles for chemists," but then I've never had to do spectral analysis for no reason -- it was part of research that had a purpose or early on it was the method by which I would be learning analytical chem.





Booko added to this post, 9 minutes and 2 seconds later...

I'm a mathematician, I'm an INTP, so I don't know if that counts for anything, but I have enjoyed math since calculus. So...yeah. Good stuff. The logic appeals to me, the systems of proof appeal to me, and the inherent beauty of pure math as well as the usefulness of applied math appeals to me.

Do you think there may be something to the INTJ/INTP split on subjects like math, then?

I see the beauty in mathematics, but that is not enough for me to pursue it. The INTPs in my family find the aesthetics to be reason enough, and it seems from your post that's more the case for you as well?

It's like I see the beauty but want the practicality, but INTPs maybe see the practicality but want the beauty?

My son (INTP) who has just started college found a mutlivariable calc book and is reading it in his spare time for fun. His major is physics, but it's the theoretical side that appeals to him.

By contrast, I preferred linear algebra, because I could see the applications in everything from economics to agriculture easily. I got through the "proofs" section fine, but can't say I enjoyed it that much. I knew it was necessary to get on to the later portion where the real fun of applications came in.

[More Tea]

Love/hate relationship with math: one the one hand I respect math, deeply. On the other hand, I failed an algebra course in high school, and ended up in language studies as a more or less direct result. I used to have nightmares about this later experience, until getting a "A" in a heavily-mathematical class in law school (corporate finance). Now the nightmares are about English classes. Go figure, eh?

[Mechanical Messiah]

Math is the closest thing to divine revelation that I can grasp. It describes the framework of our physical laws. I see math in everything I do. If I'm at work taking an engine apart, my mind wanders... I think about the electro-chemical reactions that caused the corrosion that I see. I think about the relationship between torque & horsepower... and how this relates to the operation of a water-brake dyno. When I drive the forklift, I notice how the rear steering wheels follow the front wheels in a hyperbolic fashion. I see trig functions all over the place... and I find it disturbing that these functions that are so integral to the fabric of the universe can't be described using rational numbers... it makes me question the very nature of "rational". I can even name a few mathematical anomolies that would, IMO, leave room for the existance of something that some might call God. When I ponder things like irrational numbers, the Heizenburg uncertainty principle, and chaos/bifurcation theory... I can only conclude that there are certain things that we humans quite literally CAN NOT know.

I know that there are classes that delve into the "imaginary plane" that would shed some light on this (at least the imaginary numbers... and by extension, at least some irrational ones)... and I might look into it some day. I've got enough on my plate as it is, though.

I've taken some fairly heavy math classes over the years working toward my mechanical engineering degree... Calc. I, II, and III, then differential equations. It was all interesting stuff, and gives lots of insights into how our world works.

I'll never be a mathematician, though- I have a life, after all. I've come to respect math majors for their persistence and work ethic. I've never run across a mathematical concept that I couldn't wrap my little mind around... but there's a lot of WORK involved. I've spend four hours on a single homework problem... and I know that that's nothing to some math majors. Differential Equations was a mindfuck... I got an A in the class, and it was the most difficult A I ever earned. Not sure that I want to pursue any more difficult math classes for some time. My interest in math is only in passing- I'm not interested in making a career of it. But it makes for great stuff to ponder as my mind wanders around.

Certain equations- like the logistic exponential growth equation- have even influenced my long-term view on the future of mankind. It's a very comforting equation... quite unlike the standard exponential growth equation... which is working for me financially every moment of the day. Exponential growth is a powerful thing regardless of starting point- so much so that even on a small fraction of my current diesel mechanic's salary... I should be a millionaire multiple times over by the time I'm an old geezer (not that it'll be anything special by then).

Here's my favorite Einstein quote:

"To the extent that mathematics describe reality, they are not precise; and to the extent that they are precise, they do not describe reality."

[Heero]

By contrast, I preferred linear algebra, because I could see the applications in everything from economics to agriculture easily. I got through the "proofs" section fine, but can't say I enjoyed it that much. I knew it was necessary to get on to the later portion where the real fun of applications came in.

I love linear algebra, but only because it was explained to me in an abstract way. I hated differential equations, I thought it was just a bunch of boring hooey.

For me it is also that I find meaning in mathematics, perhaps it is partially a matter of aesthetics, but I also don't require it to be naturally beautiful, I enjoy the elegance, but elegance isn't as important as rigor to me really. The logic is the real beauty, the aesthetics are just a nice compliment.

The real wonders of it for me are the connections I feel when I do it. I feel a deep and personal connection to those who came before me as mathematicians as well as mathematics itself. I feel that with all of science. The knowledge of the world as a whole is beautiful, be it applied or pure. It's just beautiful how everyone of the world contributes to the mass of knowledge.

I have an interest in applications, but not all applications, I'm really into theory above all else. I think INTPs just love theoretical systems really, of various sorts. Be it historical, mathematical, whatever. I think a lot of it is just what your natural aptitudes are and then how you enjoy them is somewhat dictated by type. Ie: theoretical versus applied physicists, applied versus pure mathematicians.

Also, don't take this as a generalization, I don't think type determines it all.

Anyways, just my $0.02.

[Zilal]

Math is definitely my worst area in terms of comprehension, yet I suppose I'm still way better at it than the general public. I have sort of a love/hate relationship with it... I absolutely love it when I can solve the problems, but I experience intense frustration when I can't. In any case it is truly beautiful and elegant and I wish I were better at pure abstraction so that I could go further with it, but my real skills all lie with language and design. (I know language can be abstract too, but math seems more so.)

I like calculus way better than algebra and find it easier. Most of the issues I've had with calc exams have to do with not knowing enough algebra or trig to do the problem properly.

[systemsguy]

I began college being a bit scared of math. That is, until I had the right teacher and I had an epiphany, as one mentioned above somewhere. After that, I was never afraid, and changed my major to Electrical Engineering. Interestingly enough, I never excelled in the math classes, but I loved it and learned a lot. I think I learned more about math in my engineering classes than in the math classes. I guess the applications in engineering were more geared toward the personality type than the tendency toward more abstract, non-application approach in the math classes.

I still work with math on the job (systems engineer), and I read calculus and differential equations text books for fun.

SG

[Pinkie]

I'm awful at maths, but I love logic and logical puzzles. My favourite module this semester was semantics and pragmatics, because I got to spend so much time drawing tree diagrams to illustrate reductio ad absurdum proofs. But for some reason, I just can't work mathematically.

[Hdier]

Keep in mind that I am actually an F with a strong T.

I am very naturally good at math. I automatically see patterns and shortcuts that can be taken, and would probably be in Pre-Calc right now (freshman taking Algebra for the third time) were it not for the fact that I moved multiple times, with either bad communication or bad school systems keeping me in Algebra I.

[helices]

I love mathematics.

At school I was always good at it but found it rather dull. I think this was because it was taught through repitition mostly - we would be told to do sets of nearly identical questions until everyone in the class could do that type of question before moving on. I would do one or two and then relax, knowing I had learnt that method...

I began to develop a deeper understanding and appreciation of maths at university, where it was taught as a much more unified way of thinking, rather than a collection of different methods for solving various exam questions.


So I use maths a lot as an engineer, and I also like to read around the subject for my own satisfaction. I love to read about the great mathematicians (Euler etc) as well as the philosophy of mathematics and about the processes by which our brains attribute meaning to the sets of symbols that make up our mathematical language - great stuff!



helices.

[AntimonyLegault]

I dislike math because I feel the number system is annoying and imperfect. We only have 9 numbers, there isn't any number for 10,11,12 and so on, also exact measurement is impossible (like trying to measure something with building blocks). In short I really don't like numbers (or math) for this reason.

[Race]

I really enjoy algebra. It's so functional. But I made a high B in Geometry. Not bragging, but that is extremely unusual for me. My parents flipped. My girlfriend, though, made a perfect score on every test. My god, if we have kids, they'll be Hawkings. But back to the point. Math isn't for everyone. I know a crap load of people who are fanatical grammarians but couldn't solve a proportion for the life of them. We all have our nacks. Life is the pursuit of yours. Them excell at it.

[FBUnicorn]

I love maths, the purer the better. Just started a Phd in Algebraic Topology. I am definitely an INTJ, but I really don't like applied maths, it just seems trivial, the pure stuff is a higher abstraction, a level above.

I intensely disliked my undergrad papers on linear algebra, partial differential equations, complex variables etc. I also hate sudoku - I just don't see the point, it's trivial (in the mathematical sense). I've heard of people who do long division for fun, I couldn't think of anything more tedious. If I know how to solve a problem I lose interest in it.

I believe the way maths is taught generally turns people off it at such a young age, it is one of the few subjects where it is socially acceptable if not encouraged for the general population to boast about lack of ability. So many people think maths is arithmetic - it is most certainly not.

[Daniel]

I get great grades in math.But it takes so much effort to get good and it always seems that others achieve the same result without putting that effort.I am a perfectionist and I want to understand every detail -that takes a lot of time.
But the result seems to be the same as that of those who don't take it that serious.
I'm confused.Does that mean I'm not suited for math?

[Bear Warp]

Math is, academically, my definite weak point. (Even though I'm a "guinea pig" in my high school's first ever Calculus class)

I don't necessarily hate math, though. If I understand the topic at hand, I can and will enjoy myself. But, if my teacher gives me some ambiguous definition, or goes into once his "number frenzies", as I like to call them, I get lost and often frustrated.

So, math and I have a total love-hate relationship.

[xhaan]

I've read that math is an INTJ's playground and understand why it should be. However, I've always had problems with algebra. I failed pre algebra in Junior High and Algebra twice in High School and now I'm taking the bare minimum algebra class in college to graduate with a degree and I'm having the hardest time of my life. Just pulled two all nighters in a row for a 1050 level math class and got a C on the test, terribly pissed off right now.

On the contrast, I can sleep through an English class or political science class but god help me I can't solve for 'X'. I can whip out a 10 page research paper in just a few hours and ace it. I'm about 65-70% right brained and I think this is why I'm so terrible at algebra and can do geometry so easily.

Is this just me or does anyone else out there really blow at Math?

I'm awful at math. Not that I can't grasp it, but my mind wanders too much, and I tend to be forgetful. But I still do like math, even though I can't do it for crap. I can barely do quadratics, and certain theories, graphing, trig, etc. is just right out. I know I could learn them, and understand them, but there's just so many variables which cause my mind to go "?!!"

Like with proper use of Pythagorean Theorem, and quadratics, take this brain teaser for example:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That sort of thing just makes me go "WTF?"
I can solve it, with some work, but I can't just rattle off the answer like some people seem to do.

[iamnotspock]

I second what lucki said. NTP's take a "pure" problem solving approach. INTJ's are feeling too pinched to work through problems, I think. Anyway, I am no good at math. And excellent at social sciences, writing, etc. So INTJ does not necessitate math skills, at least in my case.

[quizicsr]

I'm a math moron, but got As in algebra. Maybe the letters made it more interesting. Anything with numbers traps me. Including today's date and my phone number. I resist the inflexibility of mathematics. And when all else fails, I read the directions. I hate the minutia of logistics. Love developing strategies. There I find flexibility and the ability to use logic. I love languages and writing. In the 4th grade I wanted to be a UN interpreter. I admire mathemeticians, especially women. I'm a shameless Madam Curie and Einstien fan. Jeez, does that make me even more "different"?

[tabasco]

INTJ is just a personality type. In the end you are an individual rather than an INTJ.

[quizicsr]

This is true, grasshopper.

[Oica]

Math is easy, and unpleasant.
Basically, all maths have a system they are based on. There are several ways to solve these systems. You aren't taught very many ways. Rather than doing the math as the teacher says (boring), try making your own ways of solving.

When I was in algebra, I had a way of solving that was faster, easier, and required less overall work. My algebra teacher didn't get it. Moreover, he didn't trust that I was being completely honest about it.

Now in math class, I don't even listen to teachers. The lessons are too drawn out and diluted. Look at the book, know the system, do the problem or create your own system.

and of course... Don't feel pressured to do it their way.

[Sylvanus]

I'm really good and really bad at math. I am really good witht the logic portion of it, and if there isn't too much to it I can solve it in my head rather easily. However I can get dyslexic with the numbers, not literally, but they get all jumbled in my head. I also get bogged down if I have to write it out on paper, I am much better at visualizing it in my head. So I am still better than average, but these minor handicaps make if more frustrating for me than for other areas of study. So I tend not to try very hard at it, therefore I don't have the practice I need to be good. I would still say I am better than average.

I completely understand that it is easy to get frustrated if it isn't explained the right way. When my wife was taking pre-calc, she was almost in tears because she couldn't understand the work and she had several assignments overdue and was failing. I had to explain it to her three different ways in order for her to understand what to do. Then it was like 'click', and she finally understood it.

[Antares]

I've read that math is an INTJ's playground and understand why it should be. However, I've always had problems with algebra. I failed pre algebra in Junior High and Algebra twice in High School and now I'm taking the bare minimum algebra class in college to graduate with a degree and I'm having the hardest time of my life. Just pulled two all nighters in a row for a 1050 level math class and got a C on the test, terribly pissed off right now.

On the contrast, I can sleep through an English class or political science class but god help me I can't solve for 'X'. I can whip out a 10 page research paper in just a few hours and ace it. I'm about 65-70% right brained and I think this is why I'm so terrible at algebra and can do geometry so easily.

Is this just me or does anyone else out there really blow at Math?

I'm not THAT bad at math, but I'm not good either. In fact, I enjoy Algebra much more than Geometry and scored a highest average of 96 in Middle School, but I'm having trouble with my math tutor at the moment. She speaks Chinese and I can't understand the terminology that she uses. She had to explain substitution to me five times until I finally knew what she was talking about. Then she used five minutes rambling. Then I was like: Oh. You were talking about real numbers. She was like: What's a real number? I'm sort of slow since I'm not following what she was saying. I must look so stupid.





Camelopardalis added to this post, 4 minutes and 36 seconds later...

I'm a math moron, but got As in algebra. Maybe the letters made it more interesting. Anything with numbers traps me. Including today's date and my phone number. I resist the inflexibility of mathematics. And when all else fails, I read the directions. I hate the minutia of logistics. Love developing strategies. There I find flexibility and the ability to use logic. I love languages and writing. In the 4th grade I wanted to be a UN interpreter. I admire mathemeticians, especially women. I'm a shameless Madam Curie and Einstien fan. Jeez, does that make me even more "different"?

Interpreter is actually a good career. You have fun (at least I think they do) and if you're doing instant interpretation, you make lots. I can't do Geometry, but I can do Algebra, strangely (because most at my school is exactly the opposite) I love Einstein too :D I love strategic games, logic puzzles and word games. I admire physicists and astronomers... Yes. I was thinking about Stephen Hawking and Carl Sagan (My favorite free-thinker lol). Math geeks too, I guess. How their brains can handle such extensive and complex concepts is beyond me. I'm more into physics, writing, art and music. Ah well. Do you speak a lot of languages?

[desg90]

I'm also right brained.
And yes, I suck at math... on the academic level, that is.
I'm usually slow but good at math.
I have attended private lessons with my uncle (who studied Physics at college).
I easily grasp concepts, find patterns and take them beyond common human perception.
But I still can't get a stinking B on math class!

My only consolation is...
Einstein failed Math class while I still manage a passable grade. :laugh:

On the other hand... I'm good at literature and history.
Philosophy is a subject I can't wait to take.
And... I'm an INTJ...

[thephoenix1414]

I had a problem with math, especially with pre-algebra, until I hit algebra then math started to get better and now that I am in Calculus, i love it. I think most intj's are good at theory and concept and know why something works, but we just aren't always good at doing the repetitious and tedious work of actually solving the problem. Calculus involves abstract concepts and very few numbers. I think we intj's just aren't as good at accounting as accounting theory. Y'all agree?

I was so bad when I was a child that a teacher once told me and my parents that algebra would be hard for me and that calculus was a pipe dream, but now I am the top in my class.

[Capt57]

It may have something to do with left or right brain dominance.

Every test I take comes up right brain and it makes sense to me. I was not a great algebra student. I found pre-calculus very frustrating. I really tried and got a C; very unusual for me if I care to try! I did much better in calculus, geometry and physics. Chemistry was difficult for me to picture or take an interest in. I need to be able to SEE the theory behind things. I can see theory but not numbers. Doing math in my head is a nightmare for me. It sometimes makes me feel stupid I just can't see the numbers. Also most math teachers are Left brain dominant and present info that way...not good.

[bubbles]

It may have something to do with left or right brain dominance.

Every test I take comes up right brain and it makes sense to me. I was not a great algebra student. I found pre-calculus very frustrating. I really tried and got a C; very unusual for me if I care to try! I did much better in calculus, geometry and physics. Chemistry was difficult for me to picture or take an interest in. I need to be able to SEE the theory behind things. I can see theory but not numbers. Doing math in my head is a nightmare for me. It sometimes makes me feel stupid I just can't see the numbers. Also most math teachers are Left brain dominant and present info that way...not good.

I'm right brained, too, thought precalculus was the hardest math class ever (and it still is the hardest math class I ever took!). It's not good that most math teachers are Left brain and only focus on numbers, details, and computations and not the theory. It seems that your chemistry teacher was left brained too. It's amazing how a teacher's presentation of the material can affect a student's interest in a subject.

[IgnoranceIsKind]

It does make sense actually. Personally I've had problems with mathematics for as long as I can remember. But it is balanced in some sense, and for the lack of competence I have in mathematics, it makes up in my linguistic capabilites. Do not take at face value what you see here in this reply :P

INTJs are known to be the ultimater analysists, but this is honed to perfection under conditions of interest too. If something bores an INTJ (as math does to me), your mind basically goes auto-pilot and discards any urge to understand it. In an otherwise manner, anything that is poetry or prose gives me great pleasure in reading, annotating and ultimately analysing the text.

I hope this answers your question. Like you, I've actually thought about this alot.

[Yongkb21]

Truthfully.. I HATE maths.. As you can see the word hate is underlined.. Twice, hehe. I say learn the basics and that's all you really need in life. Unless of course you decide to do engineering of some sort or something similar. To everyone else.. who would sit in the supermarket wondering what (x-3)x(y+4)= how many sausages?

[desg90]

Truthfully.. I HATE maths.. As you can see the word hate is underlined.. Twice, hehe. I say learn the basics and that's all you really need in life. Unless of course you decide to do engineering of some sort or something similar. To everyone else.. who would sit in the supermarket wondering what (x-3)x(y+4)= how many sausages?

Actually, that kind of equation would apply to different priced sausages or something of the sort... :rolleyes:
How can I know that, if I hate math as well...?
Teachers use that with banal things in order to give a "practical use" to algebra...
They have done it so many times, I already relate algebra to the market. :p

[Jed3]

I like maths. I find it easy to understand and i enjoy the challenge of solving problems
and figuring out where i went wrong.
Is this and INTJ thing?

[PortInStorm]

I hate math so much I'm actually terrified of it. It honestly is my only real fear, and I had to face it to do a standarized SAT-type test for graduate school. I had a tutor for the entire summer, and still only got in the 35 percentile or something ridiculous. Me, who never cries or makes big scenes in public, used to cry and freeze in those tutoring sessions in a panic. My brain just shut off. I have no idea why I'm so bad at it, it's the only thing about myself I can't understand. I have an 88% average in university (where most grad school entrance cutoffs are 75%), and I was in the high 80s in stats, so go figure. I love the logic and multitudinous methods of analysis in stats, and the computer does the calculating for you.

It really does suck that they teach you arithmatic first and not more pure math. I never got a chance to find out if I liked the pure stuff, and I'd probably be great at the theory. I honestly think that, due to the discrepancy between my other grades and math grades, that I have a learning disability in it.

[quixotic]

I hate to break the trend here, but I love math. I majored in it in college, and even seriously considered going into graduate school to study probability and statistics. As it is, I currently work in the field of statistics and I love every minute of it.

[bubbles]

I like maths. I find it easy to understand and i enjoy the challenge of solving problems
and figuring out where i went wrong.
Is this and INTJ thing?

That's the reason why I'm doing a degree in computer science, but I still don't like math because I'm very bad at computations (they're made for computers to do).

I also love stats and probability when I took a class in it in high school, but the calculator did most of the computations.

[AgentofGaming]

I also love stats and probability when I took a class in it in high school, but the calculator did most of the computations.

Well the goal is to let technology deal with the repetitive and tedious so humans can focus on understanding and interpreting mathematical results.

If they don't let you use the calculators, either they'd have to give easy conceptual questions only or waste their time training you for something a calculator can do.

Oh and Software is the best bailout from doing Calculus. I don't want to take Electromagnetic Fields at all...