Modern Slavery

[Jakalwarrior]

So the only way to live in modern society is to sell your future and agree to much more than the actual value for objects so you can have them now and survive. I am talking about housing, education, transportation, medical care, etc... We spend our entire lives working to be able to pay for the things we need to survive so we can continue working. What little we have left over after ~40% taxes, finance charges, unhealthy food, etc... we spend on toys and entertainment that we are convinced we need. Some people make more money because more money is being made from them (directly or indirectly) and a lucky few at the top collect on it all.

Does this make our lives better or worse? Do our lives really suck that bad or am I just stuck on a nihilistic trip? (I do that sometimes). I mean our base purpose is only to survive and reproduce, but why purposefully introduce misery into the equation? or do I have it wrong and we are happier this way?


Also, how the heck does an economy of virtual slaves go into a recession? We still work our arses off and hand all of the compensation right back (generalizing the general populace).

[Tyrant Soup]

The slavery is entirely voluntary. We can choose not to waste our lives away working to acquire worthless crap like $4000 suits.

[Jakalwarrior]

The slavery is entirely voluntary. We can choose not to waste our lives away working to acquire worthless crap like $4000 suits.

You mean the homeless people who stay that way because they feel free? Or the people popping out babies and living on welfare + section 8?

[Skatt]

I've been thinking about becoming homeless. Not even joking. I feel the way you feel about this system. It's perpetually boring to me and I don't really have a desire to be a part of it at all. I don't think there is a real escape though. It hard though because as much as I don't want to, I am still compelled to care. I'm rarely passionate about anything more than politics and religion, the two things I think are the cause of the current human mentality. Not just on our side of the world, but everywhere. It typically feels like I'm watching a 'Faces of Death' film every single day. I don't want to watch, but I can't resist. I don't think there is a solution to any of this either.

[Dave C C]

Sounds like you our unsatisfied with our little experiment of representation with massive taxation.

[metamagnet]

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^^ here's how a hard working country comes into a recession

[lisakki]

You mean the homeless people who stay that way because they feel free? Or the people popping out babies and living on welfare + section 8?

I still don't see your point about the slavery. I rent out an apartment to a woman who does exactly what you say in your example; living on welfare+section 8. But to me, it's obvious that it's her choice. She CHOSE to have all those children, not go to community college, or try to improve herself in any way.

While I know America certainly isn't perfect, as someone who used to live in a Communist country I can honestly say that America has some of the best process equity in the world.

[Jakalwarrior]

I still don't see your point about the slavery. I rent out an apartment to a woman who does exactly what you say in your example; living on welfare+section 8. But to me, it's obvious that it's her choice. She CHOSE to have all those children, not go to community college, or try to improve herself in any way.

While I know America certainly isn't perfect, as someone who used to live in a Communist country I can honestly say that America has some of the best process equity in the world.

Wasn't calling those people slaves, calling them the ones remaning seperate from the system.

[Skatt]

I don't really mind the taxes much. It's what the government does with them that I mind. If we put $10billion/month into nothing but defense if would be pretty difficult for us to be attacked. If we put all diplomatic focus of the countries that were actually potential threats instead of going after the ones that haven't been real threats since we went there last time, we would be a lot better off. I don't see how taking out the biggest threat to our biggest threats was a smart move on the quest to preserve our false liberty.

I'm pretty positive that the word slavery wasn't meant in the literal sense. It's a reference to the way that so many of us work more than 40 hours a week and don't even have enough money to take care of all the necessities.
Globalism is the most current and obvious problem, though it would have been possible to balance it with the national economy if there weren't so many trigger-happy free-market capitalists that don't really think about the immediate and long term effects of the global market on the lower class workers. Then the blame is tossed back on education. So maybe they should be working on education instead of globalism until education can keep up with it.
I'm losing my train of thought, so I'm just going to leave it incomplete and let it get picked apart.

[changos]

Ambition.

It's becoming a jungle as others will fight or charge less money to get your job so you have to protect it. The same with your girl as others will try to take her away from you. Besides more and more people work to have plan A and plan B because of how aggressive things are becoming.

So, can we be not aggressive on a society so aggressive? this aggression is the slavery we fall into. I hate it too. The more you earn the more taxes you have to pay.

It's also the "price of freedom" unless people want to live with their parents or rent something, we are doomed to pay a house so we can make our family on our own. It sucks right? a house is too expensive. I think there is no honor, no respect nowadays... you can loose your job overnight... and making your own company takes big efforts (try it being honest). It sucks...

In my case the pressure comes from trying to have a plan A and plan B. Look in Central America how many banks went to bankruptcy with peoples money! and they never got it back. That sucks.

Plus, the health problems... not everybody can count with family to take care of them when they are old. Some husbands-wives just go away when their partner becomes seriously sick, so health is another problem.

[Krazy P]

I was wondering how the younger generation would respond to a real recession.

Read about the 80's if you are wondering what is coming. Whine about it if it will make you feel better (sorry, my INTJ is showing).

The bottom line is you better "get busy baby" because no-one cares about your pain.

As far as slavery goes, you have no f'nn clue what slavery really is.

Check out what China is up to in Africa if you want to know that slavery looks like in the modern world.

My goodness, get a grip.

[Avid]

We aren't talking about what China is doing in Africa. We also aren't talking about "real slavery". We are discussing the ridiculous work schedule/cost of life in the "best country" in the world. We are allowed to reflect on the things that affect our life. I think it is shit personally. I refuse to be in debt but in order to advance in the world...I would have to be (not whining, stating facts). Screw that. Just take my time. You can't deny the US is in dire need of many reforms in order to restore harmony to people on the home level and our friends in other countries.

I think the younger generations would do fine in a recession. Younger people are better connected and they would cry when they couldn't afford the "toys" but they would live, we would live. The main thing would be securing our food, water, and shelter. Unless the government wants to start randomly claiming land used for farming because some <insert rare species here> was found on it or maybe they want to run a highway right through the middle of my (fantasy) farm. Douches.

[Jakalwarrior]

I was wondering how the younger generation would respond to a real recession.

Read about the 80's if you are wondering what is coming. Whine about it if it will make you feel better (sorry, my INTJ is showing).

The bottom line is you better "get busy baby" because no-one cares about your pain.

As far as slavery goes, you have no f'nn clue what slavery really is.

Check out what China is up to in Africa if you want to know that slavery looks like in the modern world.

My goodness, get a grip.

I could care less about the recession. It will give me job security and make my first home purchase cheaper (if I can get a loan). Though I do feel sorry for the others and I feel sorry that I am paying this stupid welfare for douchebags bailout plan.

Anywho, you dont see the American economy as even the slightest bit exploitative of the citizenry?

[Henry]

So the only way to live in modern society is to sell your future and agree to much more than the actual value for objects so you can have them now and survive. I am talking about housing, education, transportation, medical care, etc... We spend our entire lives working to be able to pay for the things we need to survive so we can continue working. What little we have left over after ~40% taxes, finance charges, unhealthy food, etc... we spend on toys and entertainment that we are convinced we need. Some people make more money because more money is being made from them (directly or indirectly) and a lucky few at the top collect on it all.

Does this make our lives better or worse? Do our lives really suck that bad or am I just stuck on a nihilistic trip? (I do that sometimes). I mean our base purpose is only to survive and reproduce, but why purposefully introduce misery into the equation? or do I have it wrong and we are happier this way?


Also, how the heck does an economy of virtual slaves go into a recession? We still work our arses off and hand all of the compensation right back (generalizing the general populace).

Work your ass off for 5 years, don't spend on anything you don't need, save 150k in 5-10 years, buy a house free and clear somewhere in the midwest, retire and work when for the things you need to live ($200 a week should suffice) which should be achievable on a part time job.

[Delarge]

Theodore Kaczynski and the "Freedom Club" had the right ideas. I suggest reading "Industrial Society and Its Future" if anyone here has not already done so.

[zibber]

Jakal, I couldn't agree more.

I still don't see your point about the slavery. I rent out an apartment to a woman who does exactly what you say in your example; living on welfare+section 8. But to me, it's obvious that it's her choice. She CHOSE to have all those children, not go to community college, or try to improve herself in any way.

If that improvement has to take place within the confines of the reality of one system, how free is that?


As far as slavery goes, you have no f'nn clue what slavery really is.

The fact that the majority of people is entirely unable to perceive immaterial problems in the same way as material problems (and gets angry at people who do) is a large part of the reason those immaterial problems are the most stubborn and hardest to pass through.

Theodore Kaczynski and the "Freedom Club" had the right ideas. I suggest reading "Industrial Society and Its Future" if anyone here has not already done so.

I'm not sure if this is intended to be serious, but I'll go out on a limb and express my agreement with this. Bombs aren't cool, but the expression/execution of a philosophy shouldn't have any bearing contentually on that philosophy. Charles Manson also has very interesting moments of lucidity (on the mental prison) in the interviews I've seen.

[PortInStorm]

My main complaints are
a) education for surviving, and education for life in the real world are so very different. By the time you've grown up enough to think about whether you want to survive (ie. off the grid, self-sufficient, out of the rat race), you've got most of the real world education and no friggin' clue about survival skills (ex. farming, hunting, making clothes, basic medicine etc)

b) there is no opt-out! Should there not be for people who want to simply survive, legally? You should be able to get that 150,000 then buy the land and opt-out of welfare, health care, etc. If you die, you die, suffer etc.

This way, you can have it either way- be the relatively wealthy (compared to most of the world) slave, or have a shorter, free life (most likely).

And yes, I did go through the recession in the 80s. It wasn't pretty.

[thod]

You are told you need a degree to get a good job. You see you cannot earn much at that age and so go to university foregoing income and instead amassing debt. You graduate and find everyone has a degree and the jobs are just not there. So you lower your expectations and still you cannot find an entry level position on minimum wage. So now you either take the unskilled job, if you can find one, or you work for free as an intern, amassing more debt.

But then you need somewhere to live. It's no more an optional purchase than is food. You either pay huge rent, leaving you nothing after your student debts are paid or you take on a huge mortgage further increasing your debt. And why is that house so expensive? Because it is a bidding war, the more the banks will lend to others, the higher the prices go. The banks will lend right upto capacity to pay, meaning no spare income.

All men are born free, but quickly become indentured bondsmen having signed away their future just to have the basics of survival such as shelter. The system is set up so that the product of your labour is promised to other men, lest you sleep on the streets. If the banks did not lend, the price of a house is what you can earn and save. Thus it is the banks which make everything so expensive by their predatory lending. They mask this fact by claiming to be helping people buy homes, by helping the other guy buy a home, they are preventing you and starting the bidding war. The only way to bring down house prices is to build more and they restrict this by planning controls.

So you hit 30, maybe got the student debt payed down. Thinking about getting the mortgage with a deposit. Well you are going to need more money to start a family. Hardly surprising that the average age of motherhood is rising. The rich have found a means of stopping the poor from breeding as well as extracting their labour.

The only way to have your kids at a natural age is do so on the dole. Live in social housing and receive your welfare payments. It is not those teen mothers living in trailers that are dumb, it is the university graduates. Those who bought the American dream find why it is called a dream, suckers.

[Shauru]

This is one of those I'm glad someone else said it situations. I said it once and some bitter old lady laughed at me.


I agree with the general sentiment. I don't really see how this system of ours is free. Capitalism gains a lot from keeping people in debt. I mean interest=profit. So having housing loans and car loans and student loans is making someone rich, but usually not you.

Now granted, you're not chained together working in a field, but for the large part having what you want/need often times puts you in debt to someone else in a way you can't really get around. I think this is probably more accurately noted as Feudalistic.

I know there are going to be quite a few who think this is an overreaction, calling it slavery, but it is not ideal by my standards. I don't subscribe to this idea that humans must constantly live in a struggle to survive and fight for everything they gain. Yes nature works like that often with animals and we owe much of our evolution to conquering those hurdles, but I can't see any good reasoning why me must struggle so hard against a self imposed system.

A great deal of things could be done differently, but too many people are all about themselves.

I'm not quite sure how to solve the problem. How to live with what you want, without becoming massively indebted to those around you. So for right now I'm doing what I can. I stopped going to college so my college debt is decreasing not increasing. I have now only 2 loans to pay off.

I think the best one can hope for in modern times is to prevent yourself from having to pay loans as loans really keep you indebted to someone else. If you want something you have to work hard.

I can understand that some are definitely taking advantage of the situation, such as those using welfare programs, but as with most things responsibility is key. And as someone who acts responsibly I hope I can somehow find a way to escape this, serfdom.

[hubcap]

The solution lies within each individual. Just say "no".

The desire for instant gratification causes most everyone to say "yes" instead. Want a new car? No problemo we've got financing. Want a widescreen TV? No problem, we finance. Want high speed internet, 2,389 channels of cable TV with 321 movie channels, an I-phone, cool clothes, a big house in the burbs? Not a problem - financing available. Want a credit card? No problem we'll give you several with a low introductory interest rate of only 18.99%

Just say no to all those things and you will never have to worry about being a slave. Pay for everything with cash.

[Warrior]

The solution lies within each individual. Just say "no".

The desire for instant gratification causes most everyone to say "yes" instead. Want a new car? No problemo we've got financing. Want a widescreen TV? No problem, we finance. Want high speed internet, 2,389 channels of cable TV with 321 movie channels, an I-phone, cool clothes, a big house in the burbs? Not a problem - financing available. Want a credit card? No problem we'll give you several with a low introductory interest rate of only 18.99%

Just say no to all those things and you will never have to worry about being a slave. Pay for everything with cash.

Exactly. Thousands, probably millions, live just this way. Is it fun? Not exactly, at least not at first, but the long-term benefits far exceed the minor pain of delayed gratification. If you want to be different from most people and not be in the same "system", you can't do what everyone else is doing. It is hard to get ahead (for lack of a better term) when you are buried in debt. Hard to save when your income is already promised to everyone else. However, it is not the fault of the banks, the credit card companies, the housing industry, schools, or anyone else. You have to take control of your life. People do it all the time. Success stories aren't hard to find and they come from all walks of life, not just "the rich".

[MrDoom]

Exactly. Thousands, probably millions, live just this way. Is it fun? Not exactly, at least not at first, but the long-term benefits far exceed the minor pain of delayed gratification. If you want to be different from most people and not be in the same "system", you can't do what everyone else is doing. It is hard to get ahead (for lack of a better term) when you are buried in debt. Hard to save when your income is already promised to everyone else. However, it is not the fault of the banks, the credit card companies, the housing industry, schools, or anyone else. You have to take control of your life. People do it all the time. Success stories aren't hard to find and they come from all walks of life, not just "the rich".

This is my own sentiment as well.

Stop whining about how much the system sucks and apply some self-discipline. The "working poor" I see in the town I live within could be pretty well off if they didn't blow their money on cigs, lottery tickets, and child support (no real way to fix that after the fact however) and instead put it into a basic investment fund. Application of intelligence and a little basic arithmetic has its rewards but most people are too cognitively lazy to do the research, because our culture is about NOW NOW NOW.

[lurk]

Your only weapon is to thoroughly understand compound interest. You can find a start here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). At all times strive to arrange your affairs so that you collect interest rather than pay it. Start young - time is on your side.

Edit: The link is to the Dow Theory Letters website written by Richard Russell. It seems that the link misses the header information that identifies it as such.

[blueback]

I've been thinking about becoming homeless. Not even joking. I feel the way you feel about this system. It's perpetually boring to me and I don't really have a desire to be a part of it at all.

And the homeless are interesting?

Don't let other people define who you are. You don't have to be limited by a binary decision to "buy in" or "opt out." You can just do your own thing and take advantage of all the other people who let others tell them who to be. Define their world for them. That should be interesting.

I don't think there is a solution to any of this either.

Just because something can be phrased as a problem, doesn't mean it actually is. Our language is faulty that way. Facts of nature are not problems, they are just things we have to deal with. That people will always take advantage of each other is a fact, not a problem. Because it is not a problem, it cannot be solved. It can merely be accounted for.

It's becoming a jungle as others will fight or charge less money to get your job so you have to protect it. The same with your girl as others will try to take her away from you.

How is that any different from any other point in history? That's not a description of the way things are becoming, that's a description of the way things have always been and will always be.

So, can we be not aggressive on a society so aggressive? this aggression is the slavery we fall into.

That doesn't make any sense. We have masters who make us aggressive? I always thought of slave masters as specifically training their slaves not to be aggressive. Passive slaves are less likely to cause problems.

I hate it too. The more you earn the more taxes you have to pay.

And the less you have to worry about starving. If someone is paying half of their income in taxes, but they can still maintain their yacht, they aren't suffering. Taxes are relative but survival is objective.

It's also the "price of freedom" unless people want to live with their parents or rent something, we are doomed to pay a house so we can make our family on our own. It sucks right? a house is too expensive.

So do something else. Get a mobile home. Camp. There are always options. The issue isn't that you can't do something else, the issue is how many things you feel are unacceptable.

I think the younger generations would do fine in a recession. Younger people are better connected and they would cry when they couldn't afford the "toys" but they would live, we would live. The main thing would be securing our food, water, and shelter. Unless the government wants to start randomly claiming land used for farming because some <insert rare species here> was found on it or maybe they want to run a highway right through the middle of my (fantasy) farm. Douches.

Did you have a point?

Anywho, you dont see the American economy as even the slightest bit exploitative of the citizenry?

In what way can an economy be exploitive? Economies don't have goals. People and corporations have goals, so they can be exploitive, but not impersonal systems.

And yes, people and corporations will always be exploitive if they can get away with it. It works. That is why government exists to create rules that level the playing field. The recent economic tsunami was created AFTER sound banking regulations were removed.

My main complaints are
a) education for surviving, and education for life in the real world are so very different. By the time you've grown up enough to think about whether you want to survive (ie. off the grid, self-sufficient, out of the rat race), you've got most of the real world education and no friggin' clue about survival skills (ex. farming, hunting, making clothes, basic medicine etc)

That is a good point. I think the reason for that is our economy is founded on the principle of specialization of labor. Instead of each person having a variety of skills, each person has one skill. If you want something done, you hire the person with that skill. It's a good philosophy in a factory, but it leaves a lot to be desired in a society. However, I think (as a culture) we are beginning to realize that.

b) there is no opt-out! Should there not be for people who want to simply survive, legally? You should be able to get that 150,000 then buy the land and opt-out of welfare, health care, etc. If you die, you die, suffer etc.

Two things in life are inevitable: 1) death and 2) taxes.

What you've forgotten is that a person who retires to their plot of land and "opts out" of the system is still benefiting from the system. They are surrounded by a stable, secure landmass that ensures they don't have to worry about being invaded. If "opting out" was actually a viable option as you've drawn it, it would only be because the government protected it with appropriate laws. For someone to fully "opt out" of the system would mean they are also beyond the protection of its laws, which would make them fair game for any criminal activity at all. Since the person wasn't part of a government, no one could commit a crime against them.

Taxes are paid to support the system that provides us with security and stability. Thus, we cannot "opt out" and still enjoy the fruits of the system we no longer support.

All men are born free, but quickly become indentured bondsmen having signed away their future just to have the basics of survival such as shelter.

If you want to be free of debt you can always go somewhere else. Go live in Northern Canada or the jungles of South America. I guarantee the governments won't care too much about you and no debt collectors are going to bother trying to find you. Of course you will have to take care of yourself. You won't be able to go to an ER, or an unemployment office, or get a drink of water from a public fountain.

The actual BASICS of survival aren't particularly expensive. The question is how basic you are comfortable surviving at.

If the banks did not lend, the price of a house is what you can earn and save. Thus it is the banks which make everything so expensive by their predatory lending.

Prices are set by the interplay of supply and demand. If the entity that owns a thing can't sell it at their price, they will either lower their price or go out of business. If you thing you want is more than you can afford it's your job to not go into debt chasing it. Banks don't drive up home prices, people who think they can sell homes for more than they bought them for drive up home prices. If the area you live in is too expensive, go somewhere else. Or go into debt. The choice isn't made for you.

Well you are going to need more money to start a family. Hardly surprising that the average age of motherhood is rising. The rich have found a means of stopping the poor from breeding as well as extracting their labour.

That doesn't make sense. Wouldn't the rich want to poor to breed so that the cost of their labor would drop? Isn't that why the government provides so many financial incentives to people who want to get married and have kids?

The only way to have your kids at a natural age is do so on the dole. Live in social housing and receive your welfare payments. It is not those teen mothers living in trailers that are dumb, it is the university graduates. Those who bought the American dream find why it is called a dream, suckers.

Yeah, so, you're being silly right? This argument isn't even vaguely sound; you're better than this, so it must be motivated by something else.

[Tyrant Soup]

I have never carried debt on anything that doesn't generate a positive net return. It is not as hard as many make it out to be. The desire for instant gratification is what keeps people in servitude.

[JanusthePhoenix]

I think many people, when faced with no real immediate problems in their lives, begin 'rationalizing' problems so they have something to solve. Probably INTJ's do this in particular. I know I'm guilty. I won't admit that our society is perfect, but it is what it is, and what that is is the safest and wealthiest society the planet has ever seen. Ever hear of anyone dying of dysentery or from an infected cut? Me either, but this wasn't the case only a hundred or so years ago.

My impression is that feelings like Jackal's (and I have felt this way as well sometimes) come from the dissonance between the world we perceive today and the world we evolved to live in. Our poor, ancient instincts tell us "No! The world shouldn't be like this!" no matter how more efficiently our resources are used or how much safer and better our lives are compared to the way the world "should be". The problem you're feeling is not with the world, but with the way our outdated brains feel about it. You can train your brain to shut out such feelings, but I fear there is no good solution to this problem. Things like globalization are not going away, no matter how badly some of us want them to.

[dan888]

The only reason to work is to have the money and status to get laid. If I was still attractive to woman while broke and jobless, I'd never work seriously again. Unfortunately that is not the case :(

[freeeekyyy]

Products are only expensive because they are worth it to people. If they weren't valued that high, they wouldn't sell that high. Simple supply and demand. And you're not a slave. You just live in the real world, where actions have consequences. The consequence of not working is not having money. You aren't made to work, it's just that if you choose not to, you suffer the consequences.

[Shauru]

The problem you're feeling is not with the world, but with the way our outdated brains feel about it. You can train your brain to shut out such feelings, but I fear there is no good solution to this problem. Things like globalization are not going away, no matter how badly some of us want them to.

How is capitalism not directly related to basic survival instinct. It appeals to one of man's worst qualities; Greed. You are required to work just to acquire the basic necessities, food, water, clothing. Instead of an evolved sensibility that humans have a meaning and purpose, it requires us to live by survival instinct.

You just live in the real world, where actions have consequences. The consequence of not working is not having money. You aren't made to work, it's just that if you choose not to, you suffer the consequences.

Yes, but the point of the whole post was that it's largely involuntary. Slaves didn't HAVE to work, and they likewise suffered the consequences. Many of us didn't choose to live in this system. And it's fine and good to say you can escape it, but you can't. You can't escape taxes on your land or your need for upholding zoning regulations. You can't escape the need for water or power. And there are major limits to what can be utilized "off the grid". There is no hope for living a modern life outside of this system.

[Nightsun]

@OP: I don't get your point. Slavery is something you must do. You don't need to work all day or buy stupid things. Society push you to do so, but you don't need to do so. Actually I have an average salary, my wife is doing housewife, I have the same car for ten years, the same cell for 5 years and I work just enough to have a pleasant life (about 36 hours a week), I dedicate my time to my family, reading, being in the nature, travel, etc..

I know, USA is harder than Italy, but trying to change the system is better than depression.

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 05:24 PM ----------

..and I feel sorry that I am paying this stupid welfare for douchebags bailout plan...

Oh well so I really didn't understand your first post, you are not saying that work and capitalistic/consumistic system is a slavery, but that paying tax to keep the nation more equal is a slavery?

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 05:30 PM ----------

I agree (strangely :P) with Hubcap and Warrior. Just say no, is usually enough.

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 05:31 PM ----------

By the way. Is the situation so critical in the USA?

[freeeekyyy]

How is capitalism not directly related to basic survival instinct. It appeals to one of man's worst qualities; Greed. You are required to work just to acquire the basic necessities, food, water, clothing. Instead of an evolved sensibility that humans have a meaning and purpose, it requires us to live by survival instinct.



Yes, but the point of the whole post was that it's largely involuntary. Slaves didn't HAVE to work, and they likewise suffered the consequences. Many of us didn't choose to live in this system. And it's fine and good to say you can escape it, but you can't. You can't escape taxes on your land or your need for upholding zoning regulations. You can't escape the need for water or power. And there are major limits to what can be utilized "off the grid". There is no hope for living a modern life outside of this system.
You won't be beaten to death if you don't follow. You aren't a slave.

[Shauru]

You won't be beaten to death if you don't follow. You aren't a slave.

Exactly. As I said the analogy is probably overdrawn and if anything much resembles serfdom.

[dan888]

@OP: I don't get your point. Slavery is something you must do. You don't need to work all day or buy stupid things. Society push you to do so, but you don't need to do so. Actually I have an average salary, my wife is doing housewife, I have the same car for ten years, the same cell for 5 years and I work just enough to have a pleasant life (about 36 hours a week), I dedicate my time to my family, reading, being in the nature, travel, etc..


Agree. I feel more like a prostitute than slave.

[freeeekyyy]

Exactly. As I said the analogy is probably overdrawn and if anything much resembles serfdom.
Well there's only one alternative people have developed that doesn't have this side effect. Communism. And on the whole, I think most people agree that causes much more harm to people than capitalism or socialist capitalism ever could.

[Grimstad]

It really amazes me sometimes exactly how cheap things are. Sure a new car costs 15 to 40 thousand dollars but for a couple grand you can get a really nice used car. Like that 37” LCD TV? Wait 3 years and it will be a fraction of the price. Can’t wait? Check Craigs list. You can get a CRT style for free.

We are only slaves to our own expectations.

[Ray9]

Let's see, what would be fair? How about if we divide the entire wealth of the country by the population and give that figure to everyone so we will all be equal. If we did that the dollar amount for each person would only be about $3,000 a year because most of the money in this country is just worthless paper with nothing to back it up. But even if we did that, within a year we would all be getting zero because there would be no incentive for the truly talented to create new wealth. Then you would see what real slavery is.