Questions from INFJ who was dating an INTJ

[ellie]

I've never posted before, but I've been lurking for awhile. I'll try to keep this short although that is not my forte.

The cliff notes story is that I was dating an INTJ for four months and then he just suddenly broke it off. The rest of the context is below.

I guess my basic questions here are:
1) Can an INTJ actually be interested in someone and then choose not to pursue it further out of a desire to focus on work or is he just not into me?
2) Are there any INTJs (or others who have dated an INTJ) who have any insight into this situation? I'm very perplexed.
3) Is there any chance he'll reconsider? There is no way I'm going to throw myself at him or even contact him again, and I realize that reconsidering is not something INTJs generally do. However, I assume this lack of reconsideration is just because they have come to a conclusion that they have thought long and hard about and have complete confidence in, but I got the impression that he had not finished his thinking and he just felt forced to give me some sort of answer and that he wasn't confident in the decision.

I'm an INFJ (weakish F, very strong J-- used to occasionally test INTJ, but I am definitely not one). About four months ago I met an INTJ who was a friend of a friend but we'd never been introduced or spoken to each other. I'm not sure if he knew who I was previous to this or not. He just walked up to me and started talking to me despite the fact that another guy was talking to me and I could tell he was very nervous, but I thought he was cute and enjoyed talking to him. We didn't talk very long, but he contacted me again through a social networking site and we spoke on there for a few weeks. He eventually asked me for my phone number and asked me out.

We went on more dates than I can count and they were all great. He planned fun and interesting things to do that I enjoyed. I am very picky and have never been so impressed with someone on the first date (and I continued to be impressed by him). As things progressed he kept me up to date on important events and called me immediately when he found out he got a new job he'd applied for and showed me pictures of the place he was going to rent before he did. He'd told his parents and friends about me and introduced me to his closest friend and talked about going out with one of his other friends and that friend's long time girlfriend. He told me I was his dream girl and talked about future things he wanted to do, and to be totally honest he seemed so into me that I was a little overwhelmed even though I knew I liked him very much.

We're both in our early twenties and he doesn't really have any relationship experience (I've never been in a long-term relationship, but I suspect I have more experience than him). Everything was going absolutely great until he started this job, and the second he started the job he started getting more and more distant. I gave him a little space knowing that that is important to INTJs (and its important to me as well), and thought that maybe he would like me to initiate something since he'd done basically all of the initiating before. When I asked him to do things (which was only once a week) he would make time in his schedule for me and seemed fine when he saw me (it was during this time period that he introduced me to his close friend).

However, when it had been a few weeks and he was contacting me less and less and hadn't initiated anything for awhile I assumed more was up and didn't contact him or ask him to do anything for three weeks guessing that he needed space or something (although I did respond the two times he contacted me, one of which was to ask me to hang out for a little while because he was in the area, but I was busy that night and couldn't).

After three weeks of little to no communication I decided that space and understanding are all good and fine, but its unfair to not at least key me in to the general thought process. I sent him a message thinking that would give him time to think about his response and basically asked him where he thought things were going. (We'd had a where is this going conversation early on that he brought up where he basically told me he really liked me and wanted to take it further but also was torn because he didn't know what was going to happen b/c he was looking for a job and a new place to live at the time. He basically left it in my hands as to whether I wanted to take it slow or go a step further which I guess I assumed was to make it official. I told him slow was just fine with me.) He responded by saying he'd been thinking about it a lot and did I want to meet to talk.

When he got to my place I asked him about work and he went on about it for awhile and asked me how I'd been. I eventually got sick of wading through the b.s. to get to it so I was silent until he brought it up and then he started in on the most convuluted chain of thought I'd ever heard come out of his mouth (I seriously could not tell if he was talking about work or me for the first 4 sentences). He kept going in circles and repeating himself and was getting more and more agitated and started to get teary-eyed which caused him to get more agitated and seem angry (although I know that was him just trying to cover his emotion). Somewhere in the midst of all this I managed to gather something about how he felt stuck in neutral and he thought if he thought about it more he'd be able to work it out, but he'd been thinking about it and didn't know that he could promise he'd have a handle on things in the next two weeks and he felt overwhelmed by work and couldn't get a handle on it and didn't feel like he could give me all of him when he felt so overwhelmed with work (and he said he'd spent the entire last weekend working, which I believe) and we should probably just make a clean break and not talk or see each other anymore.

I just sort of sat there stunned and having no coherent response or point of view worked out yet just tried to say soothing things like, "Its okay," and, "I understand," because he looked like he was going to implode. About 24 hours later after I'd had time to react, think, calm down, and think some more I sent him by thoughts which basically read something like: I am confused as to where this came from, and it would make more sense to me if there was something about me you discovered and felt like wasn't a good match. I told him that I thought it was unhealthy to focus so much on work (or on anything, including a relationship) that life becomes unbalanced, and that there would always be more demands than time and that it was all a matter of how he chose to prioritize and that I hoped at some point in the future he would put a relationship somewhere in those priorities because he would be missing out and so would someone else. I basically conceded that I wasn't the girl, but tried to be affirming and nice and to tell him my point of view hoping that he would take it from an F so he won't be lonely forever (he told me he was very lonely and depressed last year and I gathered from things he said that he very much wants to be in a relationship). I don't expect him to respond to what I said, and if he does I don't expect it to be for a very long time because it takes him forever to process things, but there's my story anyways. Does anyone have any insight into this?

[curiousjane]

We'd had a where is this going conversation early on that he brought up where he basically told me he really liked me and wanted to take it further but also was torn because he didn't know what was going to happen b/c he was looking for a job and a new place to live at the time. He basically left it in my hands as to whether I wanted to take it slow or go a step further which I guess I assumed was to make it official. I told him slow was just fine with me.
Ohhhh ... been there, done that. Except it was ME looking for a job. And I got the same conflict of emotions/interest/intent/circumstances talk ... the same admitted confusion ... the same concern ... and I said slow was fine, too.

He responded by saying he'd been thinking about it a lot and did I want to meet to talk.
Still sounding familiar.

When he got to my place I asked him about work and he went on about it for awhile and asked me how I'd been. I eventually got sick of wading through the b.s. to get to it so I was silent until he brought it up and then he started in on the most convuluted chain of thought I'd ever heard come out of his mouth (I seriously could not tell if he was talking about work or me for the first 4 sentences).
Yes!! This too!

He kept going in circles and repeating himself and was getting more and more agitated
Did he stare into your eyes and look ashamed/confused/scared/overwhelmed?

and started to get teary-eyed which caused him to get more agitated and seem angry (although I know that was him just trying to cover his emotion).
Typical for any guy, actually.

Somewhere in the midst of all this I managed to gather something about how he felt stuck in neutral and he thought if he thought about it more he'd be able to work it out, but he'd been thinking about it and didn't know
Oh ... yes ... got this too ...

that he could promise he'd have a handle on things in the next two weeks and he felt overwhelmed by work and couldn't get a handle on it and didn't feel like he could give me all of him when he felt so overwhelmed with work (and he said he'd spent the entire last weekend working, which I believe) and we should probably just make a clean break and not talk or see each other anymore.
Ouch.

He doesn't realize that you could be a support system for him through this. Again, this sounds very familiar to me. The clean break is his only option to sort out part of his life. He doesn't think it is fair or reasonable for either of you to be disconnected or distant if there is no hope for a future.

I just sort of sat there stunned and having no coherent response or point of view worked out yet just tried to say soothing things like, "Its okay," and, "I understand," because he looked like he was going to implode.
You don't even KNOW how much I understand this part! It's the strangest feeling, isn't it? That feeling that you care so much you don't want the other person to hurt or be so confused ... and you understand ... and you want the best for him, even if it doesn't mean you ... and then you think, "what the heck?!!! I just soothed him when I should be upset that he just sucker-punched me emotionally and mentally!" But you don't say anything, because you don't want to make a scene. Or say the wrong thing. So you say nothing, and later on wish desperately you had said something in your defense.

About 24 hours later after I'd had time to react, think, calm down, and think some more I sent him by thoughts [...] I don't expect him to respond to what I said, and if he does I don't expect it to be for a very long time because it takes him forever to process things, but there's my story anyways. Does anyone have any insight into this?
Oh, man, here's a big ol' hug from a fellow INF-er whose had an almost identical experience. I wish I knew what to tell you, but I'm about as lost as you are.

The only word of encouragement I can provide is that when this happened to me, I thought it was the end, but it wasn't. I had come away with more questions than answers when we had a "talk" about the way things were heading. The difference with my story is he didn't mention discontinuing getting to know each other or "breaking up". And things have been slow ever since. Here and there ... more contact ... more hope. And then it is dashed away by additional circumstances. We're in limbo, relationally.

In your case, you've been pruned off. I don't know if he'll come back. It's tough to say, but ... probably not? He's moving forward the only way he knows how. If it helps any, it sounds like he was quite into you, but couldn't reconcile his need to focus on work with his desire to focus on a strong relationship with you. He needs money to survive. He doesn't need dating and affection.

I hope the INTJs have better news for you.

[cyan2012]

I agree that he probably likes you very much. However, in much of what you say I see, what I interpret to be, clear evidence that he shows the typical INTJ perfectionist traits. He put in a lot of effort to make your dates went well. Now he's at work and he probably wants to put a lot of effort into that as well. INTJs can be extremely focused and single-minded when they take something on. They also have a high need to achieve. I would ventured to say that he doesn't think he can do both (work and relationship) to his high standards and mediocrity is not an option for him in either area. So, I do think he's been as honest as he can with you and that it really isn't that he doesn't like you. I hope this helps.

[venice]

I also agree with Jane and Cyan

This had nothing to do with him not liking you or thinking you weren't a good match for him. I think a lot of men (not only INTJs) can only tackle one major thing at a time. So that means if his job is stressing him out and he wants to optimize it, he has to put all his focus on it. So in his mind, ending things with you is the only fair option. He can't multi-task his energy.

So maybe are you asking yourself, why did he talk about all this future stuff when he had no intention of following through? INTJs LOVE to talk and plan the future and I'm sure at the time he said those things, they were true for him. But inevitably the future becomes the present and there is some new exciting future possiblity to plan. And work goals became his future, you'd didn't fit his goal, and he found the energy required for managing both things exhausting. He re-evaluated based on new information. It didn't matter what came before. I'm sure it was difficult for him because he really likes you.

Will he come back? Impossible to say, but DO NOT LIVE IN LIMBO LAND. He already has a goal that he is moving on to. It's not constructive to sit around and pine. Go do your thing and then after some time has passed, you can contact him. If he were any other personality type, I'd say don't contact him at all because I think when a relationship is really worth something, they go after it, not matter what, especially if they know the other person wants to move things foward. If you have made your desire to move forward known, and they dilly-dally around, they don't know if they really want you or not. I personally would not want a relationship with someone that finds me just "ok". Shyness does not stop them. Life does not stop them. Difficult situations do not stop them. "being scared" does not stop them. However, in the case of an INTJ, I think they are more likely to drop things, even when they may still be interested.

[Griffen]

I'm not necessarily the best judge of his intent, as he does seem to be doing things differently than I do (especially the inability to express himself. Given some time to think on it, I'll have the words, I just rarely say them), but my guess would be that he still likes you. If I were in his position, it'd probably be similar where I'd cut myself off a lot to get my alone time, but I'd probably make more token efforts for phone calls, emails, etc. It could be as another poster said that he didn't realize that sometimes its ok to lean on someone (albeit not for too long). Sometimes when I've had a crappy week at work I'll spend a Friday evening with my girlfriend watching TV or something and not really doing anything. To answer your questions:

1) Can an INTJ actually be interested in someone and then choose not to pursue it further out of a desire to focus on work or is he just not into me?

In my estimation, its more out of overload than wanting to pursue work over you; this is at least how I operate. I tend to do at least the minimum required to cover work, although I must admit my ability to determine the minimum sucks, as I probably overdo it, and then try to maintain relationships. I guess if he feels he can't do both, he'll keep the one that lets him pay rent. Perhaps the thought of getting a new job doesn't enter his mind because it means admitting he's not good enough to handle it (a self-defeating thought mind you).

2) Are there any INTJs (or others who have dated an INTJ) who have any insight into this situation? I'm very perplexed.

In my past experiences, if I don't have my mental equilibrium, I close up more often. If I'm at work a ton, I clamp down on my solace time like Fort Knox. One can overdose on it though, as sometimes I'll stay in my room all weekend, and find out I feel at the end that I've wasted my time, and should have left and done suchandsuch.

3) Is there any chance he'll reconsider? There is no way I'm going to throw myself at him or even contact him again, and I realize that reconsidering is not something INTJs generally do. However, I assume this lack of reconsideration is just because they have come to a conclusion that they have thought long and hard about and have complete confidence in, but I got the impression that he had not finished his thinking and he just felt forced to give me some sort of answer and that he wasn't confident in the decision.

He might, but it will be because he's seen some flaw in his logic. He's probably thought about it a lot, but that doesn't mean his logic is perfect and absolute. He might find himself in a few days, or years, looking in to the mirror and thinking what a huge mistake he made. Or he might not and be miserable forever, you don't know. Don't hold yourself to his decisions, as only he can change them.

[ElstonGunn]

1) Can an INTJ actually be interested in someone and then choose not to pursue it further out of a desire to focus on work or is he just not into me?

Yes. Unlike most other people, for a lot of INTJs simply liking or having an interest in someone is not a good reason to pursue a relationship with that person.


2) Are there any INTJs (or others who have dated an INTJ) who have any insight into this situation? I'm very perplexed.

It sounds like it wouldn't really matter if I tried to explain my perspective. He explained it already, and he's better at talking about himself than I am at talking about him.


3) Is there any chance he'll reconsider? There is no way I'm going to throw myself at him or even contact him again, and I realize that reconsidering is not something INTJs generally do.

If it were me in his position, I wouldn't, even if I wanted to (it's the same thing I'm talking about in my answer to your first question). I'd also think that since it's my fault that things didn't work out the first time, that I don't have any legitimate claim to attempting another try. Basically, I already screwed it up, and whether or not the relationship gets another chance isn't for me to decide. I'm not saying that that line of thought makes objective sense, but that's the idea that I'd be operating under.

[Webweasel]

Yes this is a description of past relationship experiences I have had.

This guy really likes you. He likes you so much that he does not want to hurt you at all.

He knows that as an intj when we are dedicated to something like a new job its all or nothing. This is an intensely stressful experience for him and he knows that at the end of the day he will need a lot of alone time, almost meditation to get over it. He does not want to upset you by being grumpy that you are interupting his alone time.

I found this really hard when I was in a full relationship, I didnt know how to express my need for periods of no social interaction and became frustrated as a result, upsetting my partner and then getting more upset as a result.

He has to understand this for himself before he could open up to you.

The best advice I can give is to let him know that you care for him and would like to pick the relationship up when he is ready to. Once he is settled in his job and can refocus himself, you will be the centre of his world once again. Intj's don't date people lightly and we tend to make our decisions very quickly. We retreat into our introverted shells if we feel we might hurt people, we think we cant hurt them if we don't interact with them.

[ellie]

Basically what everyone has said sounds like a good description of what he's thinking. I mean he's been nothing but genuine so I realize I should take his words at face value, its just difficult for me to accept his logic because it makes no sense to me. I'm a law student and I work as well, I have close friends I enjoy spending time with, and my own outside interests, I'm just as busy as he is, but there is no question in my mind that from my perspective it could work. I don't expect that it would be practical to see each other very often, but that's something I'm willing to accept. I guess its just frustrating to me that he seems to work all of this out in his own mind and then come to an unshakable conclusion without even conversing with me about it. As an IN myself I understand the introverted thought processing, but it just seems like he's working without all the data when he does that. Instead of consulting me about what I would envision our relationship to be like he consults an idealized and unrealistic version of what a relationship looks like that he's got in his head that can't work given the realities of everyday life.

And thanks curiousjane, its nice to know there are other NFs out there who understand. I hope things work out for you and your INTJ : )

[Circle of Owls]

...he seems to work all of this out in his own mind and then come to an unshakable conclusion without even conversing with me about it...he's working without all the data when he does that. Instead of consulting me about what I would envision our relationship to be like he consults an idealized and unrealistic version of what a relationship looks like that he's got in his head that can't work given the realities of everyday life.

That's probably an excellent description of what is going on, and it is very typical for an INTJ. Working without all the data is also typical for an INTJ under stress. We spend enormous amounts of mental energy building our mental models of reality and we'll quickly shutdown all input when we get really overwhelmed.

Relationships and new jobs are both tremendously stressful, it sounds like work has pushed him past his limit - a sensory overload. He sounded almost panicked, not rational. I agree with Griffen, he hasn't "chosen" work over you, he is just so overwhelmed that it's taking all that he has just to hold himself together at work.

I think that Webweasel's suggestion is a good one: send a quick supportive email suggesting that you are there for him, maybe that you'll still consider him a friend, you hope he's making progress at work, etc., but make no demands on his time for now. When/if he has a firm grip on his work situation he'll start trying to rebuild the rest of his life, hopefully with you as a priority (and some awfully big apologies). I'd consider him a friend for now.

If you are able to establish a dialog, work within his system - point out the data that he is missing, that you want to work with him, give him the space and support he needs, etc. As ElstonGunn mentioned, he's going to feel guilt that he broke it off, that he couldn't handle both parts of his life at once, and he's going to feel your blame for that, whether it is there or not. He may be able to return to a friendship with you on his own, but it will be up to you to make it clear that you want to take it further. He will not believe that he deserves anything more.

[VinceVanGo]

Wow, I had a flashback to a past relationship of mine that sounds very similar to this. I am the INTJ, of course.

Just a reminder that there are a lot of things that play into a person's behavior. MBTI info is only part of it, and when on this message board I find myself thinking that the descriptions we have read about certain types are all there is to know about them. That has created problems for me in the past because I started ASSuming I knew all about a person because I had categorized them with MBTI, and I based all my interactions on that, not realizing there was a whole other part to this person of which I was unaware.

Things like family issues, both current and past. Mental illness, sexuality issues, self esteem. These things may or may not be related to being an INTJ. He is a whole person, not just the acronym. Does that make sense? It's very hard to avoid this when problem solving a relationship with someone who is not communicating well.

I see you doing things like that, i.e. "I gave him a little space knowing that that is important to INTJs ..." I've had people do that for me thinking it would help, but I perceived that act as the person pulling away from me, which made me feel like crap and like the relationship was over.

Or here: "Instead of consulting me about what I would envision our relationship to be like he consults an idealized and unrealistic version ..." Do you really know that about this person, whom you've known for four months, or are you reading into his behavior (guessing) based on MBTI?

In my experience, four months is the point at which I am starting to know for sure whether or not I'm moving forward in a relationship. Anything prior to that is the honeymoon phase--you are both excited with the newness and ignoring warning signs. His confusion at this point to me reveals to me that he is putting together pieces and not seeing a good match, although he obviously likes you (hence the confusion). If you start to try to guess what to do to make it better you are losing yourself in this person and it will not likely change anything, although it may keep him hanging on a couple more months. Don't do that to yourself.

You are also at the point where you are seeing him for who he is. Hint, hint.

Sorry, I hope this doesn't come across as mean. I certainly don't intend it that way. I've done what you're doing many times, and I can definitively say that the square peg does not fit in the round hole. When you have to start guessing and reading into things and changing your tact, it's time to sit on your F and pull out your J and really look at this situation.

[ellie]

I think it is a good observation that people are not just their MBTI, and that is something that I have actually thought about with him. I do think to some degree my giving him the space I thought he needed to think may have come off that way. Although I did start by initiating more things with him thinking that that's what he wanted and it just got to the point where I was like, okay if he wanted to see me he could call me and I'm not going to keep putting myself out there.

I have also considered the fact that maybe he just doesn't see me as a good match. In fact my inclination in scenarios like this is to immediately assume that that's what's going on and that any other "excuses" are just him trying to be nice (hence the first question I asked, is it even possible that this "excuse" is for real?)

To be honest though, I just don't think its that he thinks we're not a good match. I saw him two days before he started his job and he seemed like he was just as enamored with me as ever, and then it was almost an immediate 180 once work started. I just find it difficult to believe that if it was just me, or the way we interacted or something, that the change would have been that immediate and coincided with the start of work when I know from conversations with him that in the past work had been a HUGE stressor for him and that the few times I talked to him after his job started he seemed fixated and worried about it to an extreme. I also find it hard to believe based on how clearly upset and emotional he was during the conversation, and the fact that he seemed to be kind of grieving the things we'd never get to do that he'd talked about wanting to do, that the problem was primarily with me/us.

[ElstonGunn]

I see you doing things like that, i.e. "I gave him a little space knowing that that is important to INTJs ..." I've had people do that for me thinking it would help, but I perceived that act as the person pulling away from me, which made me feel like crap and like the relationship was over.

Me too. Pulling away because I just like being alone at times is my thing. If the other person isn't already in the habit of being alone for personal pleasure's sake, then I see it as a possible-to-likely deliberate change in behavior-- namely, avoiding me because they don't want to deal with me. Or they might just be busy or whatever, but not wanting me around is a definite possibility, and it seems much more likely if there have been relationship problems recently.

[ricearoni]

As an IN myself I understand the introverted thought processing, but it just seems like he's working without all the data when he does that. Instead of consulting me about what I would envision our relationship to be like he consults an idealized and unrealistic version of what a relationship looks like that he's got in his head that can't work given the realities of everyday life.

YES!!! I find that super frustrating also!

How can someone make such a huge and painful decision without even asking me what I think? It's hurtful because it seems like they're completely underestimating my abilities and desire to be in a relationship. Like they don't realize that I can handle the distance and won't resent them because they're not next to me 24/7. It's like come on! Just give it a chance! Yeah the destination is important, but the ride can be fun too! But eh. They don't want to even try.

Anyway, something helpful a friend once told me was that it's not about me. She said that, even though the guy really cares about me and would be willing to give things a chance if the circumstances were different...he knows deep down inside that right now he's not capable of it.

Ok, that wasn't exactly cheery news, since I'm the type who would call out sick from work just to spend time with a friend who was feeling down. So it's hard for me to relate to someone who would behave more cautiously. But I guess it made me realize that I'm dealing with someone who isn't as um...resilient?

I don't think I'm making any sense now. But I think that you're probably reading him right. It sounds like work is stressing him and he does like you. I also agree with webweasel's advice and think that if you can stomach it, I'd trying staying friends with him.

[ElstonGunn]

How can someone make such a huge and painful decision without even asking me what I think? [...] It's like come on! Just give it a chance! Yeah the destination is important, but the ride can be fun too! But eh. They don't want to even try.

How can you answer huge and painful questions about difficult situations with unbiased honesty? You can't. Not if you have a subjective interest in the outcomes. I'm not saying that you're lying or anything like that, but people usually look at these things in the way that they want to see them, which is usually shortsighted, and underestimating of the problems and overestimating of your ability to deal with them.

Why bother trying something that you're already convinced will fail? That's adding unnecessary misery for no reason aside from the useless self-satisfaction of "Well, I tried..." Yeah, you tried and you failed. So it's confirmed: you do, in fact, suck.



...I'm just saying this an an example of what goes through my head in those situations. If it was the best way to do things, it would show up in movies more often.

[ricearoni]

...I'm just saying this an an example of what goes through my head in those situations. If it was the best way to do things, it would show up in movies more often.

Got it. That's sort of what my friend was saying to me. It's not my fault that someone has decided things won't work out. Usually a decision like that is made because of their own negative past experiences. So for them it's real difficult to see how things could ever work out because experience has shown them it wouldn't. It's unfortunate, but I think that's something that they have to resolve on their own.
Still...

How can you answer huge and painful questions about difficult situations with unbiased honesty? You can't. Not if you have a subjective interest in the outcomes. I'm not saying that you're lying or anything like that, but people usually look at these things in the way that they want to see them, which is usually shortsighted, and underestimating of the problems and overestimating of your ability to deal with them.

Who's to say that the person who thinks a relationship could work is being shortsighted? I could also say the person who thinks it'd fail is being blinded by their farsightedness, overestimating the problems and underestimating their ability to deal with it.

I think that INTJs and INFJs are similar in that we don't view relationships in a short term kind of way (I could totally be wrong though). So while it seems optimistic that I think a relationship could work, it's not because I think things will be all rosy and easy. I just know that when I need to be, I can be very patient and tenacious. Just because there's a conflict (or a bunch), doesn't mean I'm going to give up on the relationship. I'm willing to compromise if needed and I'm willing to work on whatever issues that may pop up.

Why bother trying something that you're already convinced will fail? That's adding unnecessary misery for no reason aside from the useless self-satisfaction of "Well, I tried..." Yeah, you tried and you failed. So it's confirmed: you do, in fact, suck.

I agree. If someone is convinced it will fail, they've got a self-fulfilling prophecy brewing and it will fail. It doesn't matter what role I'd play in the relationship because they'll always be seeking failure.

[ElstonGunn]

It's not my fault that someone has decided things won't work out. Usually a decision like that is made because of their own negative past experiences.

No one's saying that it's your fault if someone else decides something. You could maybe try to prove the nay-sayer wrong, but that would require unreasonable amounts of a very specific kind of effort that most people aren't very good at understanding, let alone putting forth (least of all myself), not to mention putting up with gigantic piles of crap in the process.


Who's to say that the person who thinks a relationship could work is being shortsighted? I could also say the person who thinks it'd fail is being blinded by their farsightedness, overestimating the problems and underestimating their ability to deal with it.

Absolutely. The pessimistic person probably is inflating the problems and deflating the availability of solutions. But that doesn't cancel out the optimist's bias. So now we have two sets of problems to deal with.


I think that INTJs and INFJs are similar in that we don't view relationships in a short term kind of way (I could totally be wrong though).

Inasmuch as it applies to me, you're not wrong at all. That's why I'm so pessimistic about it. If it was just a few weeks or months of dating, then how could it matter at all if there was a potential for future problems?


So while it seems optimistic that I think a relationship could work, it's not because I think things will be all rosy and easy. I just know that when I need to be, I can be very patient and tenacious. Just because there's a conflict (or a bunch), doesn't mean I'm going to give up on the relationship. I'm willing to compromise if needed and I'm willing to work on whatever issues that may pop up.

You say you do, and maybe you would, but how could I believe that? How many people go around saying, "Hey, you know, I don't think I'm willing to put any effort into this relationship"? That's like walking into a police station and explaining the crime you're planning on committing next week to the desk sergeant. But plenty of people aren't willing to put much effort into a relationship, even if they don't admit or aren't consciously aware of it.


I agree. If someone is convinced it will fail, they've got a self-fulfilling prophecy brewing and it will fail. It doesn't matter what role I'd play in the relationship because they'll always be seeking failure.

Then it comes back to the "prove me wrong" stage. Although it would be hard to do that if I don't give you a chance to do it, of course. A lot of it depends on what the problems are exactly. Can they be fixed, and if so, how difficult would it be to fix them, or is there nothing that can be done about them? ...Which leads me to believe that it might be better to talk about the problems rather than take a 'try and see' approach. But then, talking about the problems leads back into what I was saying before about how it's hard to discuss those things with objective honesty when you have a stake in them.

...On second thought, I think I'm just an over-thinking idiot. Where's an impulsive ESFP when you need one? ;)

[ellie]

...On second thought, I think I'm just an over-thinking idiot. Where's an impulsive ESFP when you need one? ;)


Hahaha, that's exactly what I said to myself. All these years I complain because I meet a ton of guys but I say always say no because at best they seem like simple idiots and I find them incredibly predictable and unoriginal. Now I'm complaining that he ruined everything by overthinking it and making it as complicated as neurophysics. I'm an "over-thinker" too, but he far eclipsed me. If I cut all the complicated crap I think it should just come down to: do you like what you know of me so far and want to get to know me more or don't you.

Relationships are fraught with risk anyways. There is no risk free relationship. I'm not saying we should be reckless, but being too cautious can be just as bad. Besides, if things don't work out anyways it hurts for a little while, but you inevitably learn something.

I heard a quote that I think was from Colin Powell awhile ago, and it was something to the effect of-- you need to act when you have between 30% and 70% of the information you need, act before that and you're being reckless, act after that and you have lost an opportunity. My natural inclination is to require 100% of data before acting, but after a painful hitting my head against the wall experience with religious issues I chilled out. I still want more information than the average person before I act, but I realized that my ridiculously risk averse behavior was costing me a lot. I kinda see "my" INTJ as needing to learn that lesson too. I think that he potentially lost out on something that could have worked because he was too risk averse.

[ElstonGunn]

If I cut all the complicated crap I think it should just come down to: do you like what you know of me so far and want to get to know me more or don't you.

When I read that, I started thinking, "But it's not that simple. There's more to it than that. Because...." I'm incorrigible.


I kinda see "my" INTJ as needing to learn that lesson too. I think that he potentially lost out on something that could have worked because he was too risk averse.

Maybe. But if that's the case, he did avoid the risk, didn't he? ;)

[ellie]

Well it could be that simple if we (and I'll include myself here because I do this too) stopped borrowing trouble. Problems will arise, that is how relationships work, and they should be dealt with when they do arise. I think its premature to end a relationship based only on problems that the NJ senses could arise. Not that we should ignore the NJ completely, there are scenarios where I could see it being a wise decision to stop something that is working before a problem arises, but not in average cases.

Maybe. But if that's the case, he did avoid the risk, didn't he? ;)

Well here's where I'll play the, its not that simple card : )

He maybe avoided the risk of getting more deeply involved in something that could have resulted in even more pain, but by doing so he did make risks. He risked missing out on more learning experiences that he probably could use given his limited dating history. He risked the potential relationship that was there. And if he doesn't change certain premises that seem to be underlying his approach to dating he risks future potential relationships as well. There is not a single decision we make that doesn't risk something.

[ElstonGunn]

Problems will arise, that is how relationships work, and they should be dealt with when they do arise. I think its premature to end a relationship based only on problems that the NJ senses could arise.

Fair enough. But what about not-starting, as opposed to ending something? That's the part I'm thinking about and much more likely to do. "Let's not get into this," rather than "Let's call it quits." If I have the proverbial "commitment issues," the reason for them is that I don't want to break a commitment once it has been made. So because of that, I'm a tough sell for commitment. But as I said before, I'm also an idiot.


He maybe avoided the risk of getting more deeply involved in something that could have resulted in even more pain, but by doing so he did make risks. He risked missing out on more learning experiences that he probably could use given his limited dating history. He risked the potential relationship that was there. And if he doesn't change certain premises that seem to be underlying his approach to dating he risks future potential relationships as well. There is not a single decision we make that doesn't risk something.

Yeah, there's no free lunch. But regretting a missed chance is way, way, way better than regretting a screw-up in my mind. The problem is that they're both regrets that are based on the future-- based on the idea that something that will turn out either well or poorly-- so you're guessing either way. But I think the "loved and lost" line is a steaming pile of fresh shit right out of a bull's ass, so that influences my preference, to say the least.

[Aeroscoper]

Lots of good insight and advice here. I think the only thing I could add is that I've been through this as the overburdened INTJ b/f in the past so I can relate to what the guys going through. As Elston said, he probably won't rely on his emotions and his caring of you as the determining factor right now.

Keep in mind many INTJ's have a compulsion to feel "adequate", so if his job's taking up so much of his mental time and resources that he's unable to meet what he in his mind thinks is what a good boyfriend should be/do, than he may rather give up altogether than feel as he wasn't doing what he should for you.

In my experience I would break things off abruptly if:

1. I didn't see things working out long term and something a bit more reasonable came along.

2. I was so busy with school/work that I wasn't able to give enough of myself to the relationship and felt it unfair to my partner, thus "let her free" to find someone that could treat her better.

Your case sounds like a classic case of #2. In every instance of #1, I always vocalized that it wasn't working. My #2's came out similar to what your guy said, because as much as he thinks it's the right thing to do, it still hurts him to let you go.

Only real thing you can do is let him know that you're o.k. with him trying to get things straightened out at work, and you'll wait. I don't think it's productive to be "clingy" or call him while sad/lonely for a while, it'll just reinforce how crappy of a b/f he is.

Hope this helps, and good luck with him.

[ellie]

Fair enough. But what about not-starting, as opposed to ending something? That's the part I'm thinking about and much more likely to do. "Let's not get into this," rather than "Let's call it quits." If I have the proverbial "commitment issues," the reason for them is that I don't want to break a commitment once it has been made. So because of that, I'm a tough sell for commitment. But as I said before, I'm also an idiot.
I can respect the tough sell for commitment for that reason, I'm the same way, although I don't think to the same degree. I think what this overlooks is that some sort of formal commitment is not "the beginning," things start well before that and people's mental and emotional energy is already involved (albeit less so than it would be at a later stage).

But regretting a missed chance is way, way, way better than regretting a screw-up in my mind.
Hmmm...this is interesting. I can think of a lot more missed chances I regret than screw ups. Though there's a good chance this is because of my extraordinarily risk averse behavior.

Aeroscoper, your comment actually helped a lot. I haven't been able to succinctly explain to myself what he was trying to say to me because he was all over the place, but #2 is exactly what he was saying. He didn't really give me an option of "waiting" because he told me that wasn't fair to me. Now when the average person says this I would think well they are just trying to get rid of you in a "nice" way, but for some reason I actually believe him. However, I think this sort of position is unfair and paternalistic. I am the best judge of what I want and will accept in a relationship. I am also the best judge of whether or not I'd like to be free to pursue other options; I live in a city big enough to provide plenty of single guys my age and I have met more than I care to and have not been impressed. I also think its unrealistic. I mean of course its not ideal for one or both people to be so busy at the start, but if you're in it for the long haul you have to assume that busy schedules and other stressors will come and go. Aren't times like this when a relationship can truly grow and persevere, and when both individuals can benefit from the help/comfort of the other?

[ElstonGunn]

I can respect the tough sell for commitment for that reason, I'm the same way, although I don't think to the same degree. I think what this overlooks is that some sort of formal commitment is not "the beginning," things start well before that and people's mental and emotional energy is already involved (albeit less so than it would be at a later stage).

How formal? I'm talking about the initial stages of awareness that people are interested in developing a romantic relationship when the interest is out in the open and confirmed. That's kind of a start of something new, isn't it?


Hmmm...this is interesting. I can think of a lot more missed chances I regret than screw ups.

I think I could, too. But that's quantity. As far as quality of regrets go, screw-ups give me more bang for my buck, by far.

He didn't really give me an option of "waiting" because he told me that wasn't fair to me.

Hold that thought.


I am the best judge of what I want and will accept in a relationship.

Okay, maybe you are. But he's best as figuring out what he wants, too. And one thing he doesn't want is the idea that he's being unfair to you, which he thinks he would be if he stayed in the relationship. The problem isn't really about you, as odd as that might sound. You can say what you want, but he's still going to think he's being unfair.


Aren't times like this when a relationship can truly grow and persevere, and when both individuals can benefit from the help/comfort of the other?

Nah, I don't want to burden my girlfriend/wife with my dumb problems. I'm always glad to help her with hers, but she doesn't need to deal with mine, too.

(Another example of my way of thinking. As wrong as it may be, that's where I go first and the position that I'd be most comfortable with.)