Election 2008: The Great Debates

[TheLastMohican]

This thread will be for the discussion of the presidential and vice presidential debates. The first Obama vs. McCain debate was tonight.

Was there a winner? Were the questions moronic? Would the outcome be perceived differently if the debate was only broadcast over the radio?

[PHS Philip]

Cool, debate: cliff notes edition! I couldn't force myself to watch, personally. Stupidity and rhetoric is so endemic in this campaign that it's too painful (especially from McCain, but to a lesser extent from Obama too)

[TheLastMohican]

In my humble opinion, it was lame. They weren't given enough to disagree on, and when they did disagree (and interrupt each other, especially Obama a couple of times), it was usually a case of "he said, he said" regarding their quotes, votes, and the quotes of their friends and advisors.

[CaptainA]

Not a great Debate, but if anybody won it was Obama.

[TheLastMohican]

...if anybody won it was Obama.

Why?

[Tenacious B]

In my humble opinion, it was lame. They weren't given enough to disagree on, and when they did disagree (and interrupt each other, especially Obama a couple of times), it was usually a case of "he said, he said" regarding their quotes, votes, and the quotes of their friends and advisors.
That's pretty much my take on it as well. It was hardly worth the trouble.

[whiteslate]

That's pretty much my take on it as well. It was hardly worth the trouble.

Yeah, agreed. Am waiting for the 15 Oct - presidential contenders. Topic: Domestic and economic policy.

Well, for those who missed it here's a transcript from LA Times (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). It makes me think that a better debate would include laptops, projectors, mindmaps, and better VERIFIED figures. I'm not advocating a powerpoint show rather than a strong oratory offense/defense here, but at least non NTs will not be swayed just by body language/voice.

[Josh]

I watched the debate, i really don't think there was a clear cut winner. Because this was McCain's strong suit and he has such a big lead on national security and foreign policy issues with voters, the mere fact that Obama held his own i'd say was a victory. If there's one thing McCain does well it's twisting facts and changing the focus of a a conversation, thats the only reason he stayed competitive, both in the debate and in the polls.

[TheLastMohican]

The vice presidential debate is long past now, but I wanted to revive this thread for the latest Obama vs. McCain debate. I think the questions were better this time (interesting...), and the candidates had more substantive things to say. There was still the factual nitpicking that took up a lot of time without going anywhere, but the format kept things moving along fairly well. Overall I'd say it was significantly better than the first.

Thoughts?

[metamagnet]

Meh, the second debate was OK.
In retrospect they probably said more things of substance than the first, but it still felt like a rehash of the first debate.

So far I've found the VP debate the most useful.

[TheLastMohican]

Well, the last debate is arriving tonight. Any predictions?

I'll miss the first 20 minutes or so. :cry:

[Karamazov]

Well, the last debate is arriving tonight. Any predictions?

I'll miss the first 20 minutes or so. :cry:

Banal talking points has so far ruled in the past two debates, so you won't miss much. Unless Bob Schiefer's moderation will somehow demarcate the end of it all. They will be seated at the same table next to each other, so expect touching. I have goosebumps already...

Townhall made me cringe. Some people just can't ask substantive questions.

[PHS Philip]

I love it: McCain attacks Obama over 'associating with terrorists' and acorn, Obama, destroys the argument, and then McCain repeats what he already said almost to the word.

I guess this election means that I have a few new comedy channels for a while, though, which is nice.

[TheLastMohican]

I think this debate turned out the best of the presidential debates this year. I didn't like that McCain and Obama wasted a bunch of time in the middle bickering about the campaigns and things shouted at rallies (as if it has anything to do with the their policies), but I thought the questions overall were better this time around. I found the "Joe the plumber" segment quite amusing; Obama handled it very gracefully.

[Karamazov]

Yeah, the whole Ayers diatribe was a total non-issue; time could have been better spent on more pertinent matters. If you're voting for McCain though, I wish you the best of luck If you happen to stand in line with anything resembling the vitriol of the other, more belligerent and irrational crowd. That should have been skipped as well in the debate. It's still amusing though to watch nonetheless on video..

[PHS Philip]

They both got education wrong, badly. The problem with no child left behind isn't funding. The problem with no child lift behind is no child left behind.

I didn't watch the whole thing, but I heard that McCain went into his antiscience crap again, once again bashing Obama for earmarking money to replace a 40 year old projector at a planetarium.

[Elsien]

Haha, I listened to the debate on the radio wile traveling. The ONLY thing I could hear were the underlining rhetorical meanings that even a 5th grader could have followed.

In a nut shell McCain tried to tear down Obama, and Obama tried to keep (for the most part) the debate on track and moving forward. Both strategies, and I have to agree with everything PHS Phillip has said in this thread so far. It was very entertaining. I seriously felt like I was listening to a freshman debate in high school.

The educational system needs a serious serious reform. I STRONGLY! disagree with standardized testing. I can not remember where I read this but I do remember it being credible: Studies have shown that kids in America start disliking school starting in 4th grade. A nationwide study between the differences in 3rd grade and 4th grade teachings was simply: STANDARDIZED TESTING. Teachers have to stop teaching kids based on the kid and start teaching the kids based on a standardized test. The creativity and personalized teaching methods get thrown clean out the door when teaching for standardized tests. Simply put they try to teach all the kids in the exact same way, which is most not so good for kids that are wanting to enjoy a learning experience.

[Librorum]

Why oh why doesn't Obama challenge McCain on that projector thing and ask him if he has a problem with educating children about science?

I can't say I know much about education, but these ideas about competition between schools makes me nervous. These are not businesses, and children are not widgets. Students should compete with each other, but schools? How is it helpful when a kid knows their school is not a "good" one? Shouldn't we be trying to make every school a good one?

I found it interesting that the US has the most expensive education system but has among the poorest results. That sort of mirrors the health system (and perhaps defense too!). What is it about the US that causes this to happen?

[Tocsin]

Phony debates built on rules set by both political parties are nothing more than talking points publicity releases. They might as well just have both candidates record their own twelve minute infomercials and air those back to back.

I would have traded every politicl debate to have seen Obama and Mcain both on The Daily Show at the same time. That would have been much more informative, entertaining, and honest at the same time.

[enWTFp]

I found it interesting that the US has the most expensive education system but has among the poorest results. That sort of mirrors the health system (and perhaps defense too!). What is it about the US that causes this to happen?People 'manage' it, instead of carefully handle it.

Applies everywhere.

Even worse though, people are hostile towards those who maintain high quality, and force them to 'manage' it too, until the quality is reduced. It is obsession with speed, similar to what Mario Andretti says: "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

Well, there are limits. And then a crash.

[PHS Philip]

The educational system needs a serious serious reform. I STRONGLY! disagree with standardized testing. I can not remember where I read this but I do remember it being credible: Studies have shown that kids in America start disliking school starting in 4th grade. A nationwide study between the differences in 3rd grade and 4th grade teachings was simply: STANDARDIZED TESTING. Teachers have to stop teaching kids based on the kid and start teaching the kids based on a standardized test. The creativity and personalized teaching methods get thrown clean out the door when teaching for standardized tests. Simply put they try to teach all the kids in the exact same way, which is most not so good for kids that are wanting to enjoy a learning experience.

Standardized testing is a big part of it. Another big part is that our teachers really aren't that good. Most elementary school teachers teach because they like kids, which is good, but they don't really know enough to teach well. They tend to have a poor grasp of science, for instance. They aren't held to any kind of standard.

And then there's NCLB. No child left behind forces schools to funnel resources into kids who are doing poorly, which is in many cases a lost cause (by about 6th or 7th grade, it's very hard to change a student's course, and before then, so much of it is reliant on parents. If the parents don't push the kids to learn, they won't learn). This means that time and resources are funneled away both from average kids and (especially) the top kids. "Closing the achievement gap by pushing down the top is like fostering fitness by outlawing marathons."

[whiteslate]

I'm not too familiar with public education in the States, apart frm what I've observed frm Boston Public, etc. Zero Tolerance laws, standardized testing and NCLB, tho, runs parallel to the system we have in my country - at first glance.

The difference is that our way of channelling the academically poor students to technical/vocational/craft schools have proved to be quite affective: egalitarian and economically sound. Dropout rates are low, therefore - and we only have the Compulsory Education scheme few yrs back.

Standardized testing begins very early on tho - some places at nurseries and kindergartens; i.e aged 4-6. From first grade til the third, it seems that the kids are all grouped together randomly - but some schools have a way of streaming them based on elder siblings' grades [if they're in the same school] or the educational/professional level of the parents. It is rationalized that this would be an effective way to stream the [anticipatedly] better performing students or weaker students together - thus making it easier for teachers to teach.

At fourth grade, we have a major streaming exercise [i.e standardized testing across the grade] again, and would shift classes according to abilities. Note that there's not even optional courses yet at this level - everyone took the same subjects, or a few more if they're 'smarter'.

At grade six, there's another major exam - will decide if we can get into the better Upper Grade schs [i.e. Secondary Schools]. If they fail these after third attempt; off to technical/vocational schools they go. Usually low IQ kids, but they can be very hardworking and make gd crafts apprentices.

For the rest, there's five streams for the different ability groups to complete the OLevels course [aged 13 to 16 or 17] - Normal Technical [6 years; but most just go off to Technical schools on their Fourth], Normal Academic [it will take them 5 years to complete the course] and most else - Express [Four Years; the British standard.] Us INTjs either gets streamed into Special [Four Years, with special papers to take - top 5% of cohort - gets a pick of the best schools in the country on scholarship] and then, there's always geniuses in the Gifted Education Program [yes, you, Mr Starke] who pretty much do our own projects in dark corners of the school and then still have to take our O Levels after 4 Years. They don't allow us to skip grades here, which is an anomaly frm other countries.

Sorry I got carried away,.
There's further channelling after that - to meet different abilities and needs.
It's NCLB without shoving it down our throats. [Despite the country leaders being called tyrants at times - which might be true to some.]

It's working for us.
It's basic algorithms.

And pls don't hit me with a sliderule for now for meandering off too far.

[Librorum]

That's fascinating. I don't know how that would fly in Canada. The idea of streaming would be contrary to our notions of equality, and parents would probably rebel against the suggestion that their children are not as smart as others. Looks like the smart way to go, though.

I was lucky--I got put into French Immersion from 6-9 and then the International Baccalaureate, so that kept me busy. Then I hit university and was bored to tears and my marks fell. :(

[reb]

those weren't debates, they were 'cons'. take a real debate course, or join a debate club, do a ton of research on a topic and premise you don't agree with, and then go present it...then you'll know what debate is...these farces perpetrated on an ignorant public are 'showmanship' in the worst sense...p.t. barnum was soooo right...

[void]

The debates were little more than 1:30 hr mixed stump speeches from all four candidates. I credit McCain with being more concise and actually trying to answer (some of) the bloody questions instead of spending minutes on preludes. Obama ameliorated his annoying verbosity in the last debate. The "buy up bad mortgages" line was a really bad move, of course. McCain's incredulous "zero?!?" moment was priceless. This whole Joe the Plumber bit has got to be one of the most ridiculous things in national politics since the feigned outrage over Clinton's blowjob.

Still, shame on all 4 moderators for not calling out the candidates nor squeezing answers out of them.


EDIT: How can you tell John McCain is old? His blinker is on (yeah, yeah, groan)