The Black People

[Malotis]

Now this may come across strange to many, being as the whole "racial equality" fad has taken such root these past recent years, but the black people, or better yet, African Americans, are retrospectively inferior beings in terms of calculated use towards the betterment of society as a whole. Now it is not uncommon for members of the far left to cry in outrage at such a non-politically correct sentiment, however, that doesn’t change the facts. The facts are that the black people are substantially more prone to committing horribly grave offenses including rape, murder, armed robbery and assault. For example, between the years 2001 and 2003, blacks were 39 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than reverse and 136 times to commit robbery. Furthermore, during these same years blacks committed, on average, 15,400 black-on-white rapes per year, while whites averaged only 900 white-on-black rapes per year. Maybe that explains why the black people make only 13% of the countries population and yet they make up nearly half the countries prison population. In some states this discrepancy is even greater, what with illinois having a 15% black people population and yet a 65% black prison population.

Personally, I found these numbers almost difficult to believe. How could anything that suggested that whites were better for society than blacks possibly be true? Wasn’t I always told that there was no difference between whites and blacks? Well I for one, consider it a possibility that we live in a horribly, corrupt and racist society where the police are racist, employers are racist, prosecutors are racist, jury are members racist, judges are racist, and just about everybody else, racist, for then we have a perfectly rational and politically correct explanation for why the black people are being jailed a bit more frequently… though how can racism exist in America when kids are getting Martin Luther king’s day off for school? I mean, I see plenty of black judges, lawyers, employers, law enforcement officers, not to mention presidential candidates, how can they all be racist and why would they treat their own people differently?

Call me a racist, call me a bigot, call me ignorant, call me whatever you’d like, the bottom line is that if one group of people is significantly more prone to commit horribly heinous crimes than another group of people, and if I don’t want horribly heinous crimes committed against myself or those I care about, then why wouldn’t I try to avoid one group of people over the other?

[Tocsin]

Your basing a supposition on the cause of unequal rates of criminal activity only on one possible cause: race, when there could be other possible causes, such as poverty and/or population density.

To see if your theory is valid, you would need to compare the crime rates of poor urban blacks to poor urban whites, poor rural blacks to poor rural whites, affluent urban blacks to affluent urban whites, and affluent rural blacks to affluent rural whites.

You would also need to do a study of conviction reversals and false arrests for each group, to see if their is unequal justice or incorrect convictions, which would result in false positives that skew the statistics to inaccurate results.

Return when you have those results (and please source your data), and we'll reexamine your claim.





Tocsin added to this post, 4 minutes and 5 seconds later...

It would additionally be of use to compare education levels as a possible variable as well, which would mean studying the data for 16 different groupings.

[Avid]

You have valid concerns. I live in a dominantly african american city and really the problem I see is culture. There is a particular culture that I guess you could call "hip hop/rap culture" and it affects many different races really but is dominant in blacks. That being said, I went to school with many black people who were great people. They were educated and well mannered and some of my best respected friends. Some of them complained about blacks around them that adopted the trash culture. They said it stemmed from blacks being rebellious of the "white is right" mentality and they choose to operate their own ways and "get back at the white man".

When I look at people I'm usually more concerned with how they dress and function. While it isn't always accurate...it seems a little more accurate then just avoiding a whole race (which would be impossible for me anyway). Trash comes in all colors my friend.

There is some racism in the court system as is evidenced when people do identical crimes, yet the black guy serves a harsher sentence (could also be attributed to money and who they know). But there is sexism, too. Women repeatedly get let off the hook while the man fries..or at least something less severe (I digress). Our judicial system has all sorts of flaws.

[Evalind]

Your basing a supposition on the cause of unequal rates of criminal activity only on one possible cause: race, when there could be other possible causes, such as poverty and/or population density.
...
Return when you have those results (and please source your data), and we'll reexamine your claim.

IAWTC

[Monte314]

I agree with Avid. I see "black America" as an historically exploited and ravaged people group that is still in the process of being allowed to take its rightful place in mainstream society.

The formation of sub-cultures is an anthropological coping mechanism; when people are placed into a pathological (e.g., racist, economically/politically repressed) culture, pathological sub-cultures arise as a means of survival. This is where gangs come from, for example. This is also where the Nazis (who were not black) came from. I think it is invalid to attribute pathology that might arise in stressed sub-cultures to inherent inferiority of the people who comprise it.

Indeed, the true inferiority is the moral inferiority from which the racism itself arises. It is this inferiority that is the ultimate cause of the pathology you describe.

[muguly]

The problem with "the black people", as you put it, is simply a lack of knowledge. Growing up in under-funded schools, in poverty stricken neighborhoods, with little to no help from anyone outside the community. It's a cycle that continues to happen: a child is born to an under age mother, the father can't get a job that pays enough so he begins selling drugs to support his family. The father gets locked up, leaving a mother and child to survive. The mother can't afford things on her own and relies on public assistance for her needs. They move into a low-income neighborhood and the child goes to a school that doesn't have enough anything to have a proper education. The child, if a boy, sees the benefits of being a drug dealer and decides that's what he needs to do to support his mother. If a girl, she longs for the love of her father, who is in prison, and seeks it from other men. She get's pregnant and starts the cycle over. He, the male child, will father a child, get locked up and start the cycle over.

Black people are the same as everyone else: we want happy families, happy lives, and to be comfortable with our surroundings. Sometimes some might seek to get those things through illegal gains but others strive and try hard and eventually become what they have aspired to be all their lives. I know because I speak from experience.

[Avid]

You know Muguly, I always did wonder something. Most areas have some sort of black history month (to my knowledge) and they almost always mention George Washington Carver but to most he is simply "the peanut guy". I think society as a whole could learn a thing or two from this guy... past just peanuts. Here is the whole article if you are interested and if you like you can skip the top and go right to the "born a slave" section. Anyway, I truly admire the man. His main theme was overcoming obstacles and self reliance.

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[Josh]

Totally agree with avid monte and muguly on this thread, it angers me to no end when people blame it on laziness or inferiority or some other idiotic reason.

[Mozzes]

Totally agree with avid monte and muguly on this thread, it angers me to no end when people blame it on laziness or inferiority or some other idiotic reason.

Laziness and inferiority are real traits of people but apply to the individual and not the group or culture. I think there's something to be said about the gap in educational achievement and economic mobility contributing to the discrepancy in incarceration rates of whites and blacks. Of course whether education and economic paralysis of blacks are root causes of black crime or whether black crime, lack of education and economic paralysis all share a common foundation (I guess the difference between the typical "liberal" and "racialist" views on the topic) who only knows.

Also, statistics can always be manipulated to make a point. About 90% of crime in America is INTRAracial according to the Department of Justice. The difference in raw numbers for interracial crime is due to the difference in crime rates between races - not because blacks specifically target whites as seemed to be implied by the OP.

Also consider that there are 3 times as many whites incarcerated in America as there are total people in prison in India, which has four times the population. See? Easy to make a group of people seem violent and savage.

America has somewhere around 25% of the world's prison population but only a tiny percentage of the world's African and African-descendant population. I think there's more to this than meets the eye.

[Lights]

The facts are that the black people are substantially more prone to committing horribly grave offenses including rape, murder, armed robbery and assault. For example, between the years 2001 and 2003, blacks were 39 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than reverse and 136 times to commit robbery. Furthermore, during these same years blacks committed, on average, 15,400 black-on-white rapes per year, while whites averaged only 900 white-on-black rapes per year. Maybe that explains why the black people make only 13% of the countries population and yet they make up nearly half the countries prison population. In some states this discrepancy is even greater, what with illinois having a 15% black people population and yet a 65% black prison population.

A few more things to consider....
1. It is estimated that only about half the crimes committed in this country are reported
2. Crime statistics are based on arrests and convictions

To argue that the statistics truly say that blacks as a group are more prone to committing these crimes you have to first prove...

1. Blacks commit the same percentage of the crimes not reported as the crimes that are reported.
2. That blacks and whites are equally as likely to be arrested and convicted under the same circumstances.

The reason you have to prove such is because...

1. People may be more prone to reporting crimes with black offenders over crimes with white offenders.
2. Under comparable circumstances, the justice system may be more prone to arresting and convicting black offenders than white offenders.

In fact, I believe if you do a little research you may find the above two points have studies which seem to indicate they are true.

What is clear are your statistics are inadequate for proving the assertions you have made because they do not account for issues such as income, level of education, crimes unreported, and inequitable treatment in the justice system. Inferential statistics must always be treated as correlations and not causes, and there are simply too many variables that are unaccounted to come to the conclusions you have.

For example, if you are to avoid people under the basis of skin color, does that mean you will avoid any educated, high income black individual just the same as you would the undereducated, low income black individual? Would you feel safer hanging out with an undereducated, low income white individual than an educated, high income black individual? Can you even argue that income and education level do not play a far greater role than skin color in reports, arrests, and convictions, without conducting a study like Tocsin has suggested?

[DrEast]

Call me a racist, call me a bigot, call me ignorant, call me whatever you’d like,

Okay: You're a troll.

That said, isn't "horribly heinous" a bit redundantly repetitive?

[blueback]

Lets assume for the moment that your assertion is correct; that people who are genetically "negro" are more violent than people who are genetically "caucasian."

What amount of white blood does it take to civilize a black? Is a half black, half white person as civilized as a full white person? Does it take 3/4 white? Does it take 99.9% white? In the inverse sense, how much black blood does it take to break down the natural civilizing instinct of the white?

[meanlittlechimp]

If you take white on Black (or Native American) crime and the reverse in the last 200 years, there would have to be a LOT more murder and rape to make up for what's been done to them (to tilt the number of black on white crime in their favor).

Whites were enslaving, murdering and raping millions of blacks over the last few centuries - is there something inherent about whites that makes them partake in these criminal activities?

though how can racism exist in America when kids are getting Martin Luther king’s day off for school?

If there wasn't rampant racism, MLK wouldn't have had anything to protest in the first place, been harassed and impeded by the FBI, or have been assassinated. Giving him a day doesn't make racism vanish.

Native Americans are 10 times more likely to be incarcerated than whites. Do they have something inherently criminal about them as well? or do you think it has something to do with the poverty caused by their genocide and theft of their lands, by whites?

Okay: You're a troll.

I don't think he's a troll, I think a huge minority or even a slight majority of people holds these views (as well as many on this forum). Most won't discuss it openly, but they think it nonetheless.

[Lights]

If you take white on Black (or Native American) crime and the reverse in the last 200 years, there would have to be a LOT more murder and rape to make up for what's been done to them (to tilt the number of black on white crime in their favor).

But would it really be rape for a white slave owner to have sex with all his female slaves so that he can expand on his stock? I would say that is more like diversifying your assets.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[JustMel]

regardless of the reason there will never be true equality unless people realize that we all bleed the same. You fall into one of the blood types--we all do. There is no blood type that is ONLY for one race--it may be predominate in one or the other but it's not all or nothing.

I know just as many white trash families as I do black ones. I know good people in all races. I get tired of hearing how evil we were for buying slaves from Africa when it was the Africans selling their own people that made it possible in the first place. Whatever the market there will always be consumers.

If you want to get into who has more right to the country due to familial lines---we're all screwed except the Indians that we stole the land from to begin with. Columbus didn't discover America--it was already here and in use. He just claimed it. People also forget when talking about white vs black and crime that this country was built by people escaping taxation that included LOTS of rapists, murderers and theives. We anglos are not innocent nor are we unequivocally guilty.

There were white sharecroppers and slaves and indentured servants as well. Yes, blacks were sold into slavery---just like blue eyed blondes are sold into sexual slavery to this day.

Get off your ass, white or black, get a job and take care of yours and stop expecting something for nothing. Raise your kids to show respect in order to earn respect instead of demanding something they haven't earned. Spend your free time with your kids instead of looking for your next meal ticket. Teach your kids to help someone instead of tearing them down. If you put out hate and violence that's what you will gain as well. I'm so tired of hearing discrimination because of color that I could puke. Stop bitching about the want for things to change and get off you ass and make them change. Stop spouting statistics and go be a big brother/sister and show some of these kids that have potential what their options ARE instead of what their lineage HAS been. Stop expecting special treatment for something that happened more than 100 years ago and asking for reparations for something that you probably don't deserve or better yet seek the reperations from the people that sold your ancestors into slavery instead of the country that is supporting you now. White, black, green, purple---we all bleed the same. If you were dying and needed a heart transplant would you refuse it if it came from someone of the opposite race? If yes, you deserve to die otherwise you'd take the gift and make something of your life.

Prisons are overcrowded because there are too many non violent offenders in the prison system, too many convicted felons sitting on death row for 20 years instead of getting the needle when they were convicted, too many foreigners in the system that should have just been shipped back to whatever rock they came from and because we live in a society that fosters "gimme" instead of "earn me"

[Monte314]

Wow.

Personal responsibility... you mean we aren't all just victims, dependent upon the system that enslaved us?

Here here!

[Mozzes]

"The Black People" sounds like a good title for a terrible B horror movie.

[blueback]

But would it really be rape...
I don't like to call it rape; that's such an ugly word. I prefer "suprise sex." Everyone loves a suprise!

[Krazy P]

The best business person I ever worked with was black - he was also one of my best mentors. He ran an engineering group for a major company comprising around 8000 people.

That being said, and him being an unusual person, it is true that the stack ranking of IQ by race is Asian, white, hispanic, black and native american. This is important for policy purposes because, while in the past the best predictor of future income was the income of the parents (inherited wealth), the best predictor of income today is education - which is directly related to the way the western world measures "IQ" (I know there are "multi-cultural measures, but let's face it, we live in a "western world")

I do agree that culture is the culprit and the cultural problem has been called the "red-neck" rejection of education. Whether white or black, a culture that rejects education as a societal value is doomed in the long run.

Bill Cosby has it exactly right on this issue - good luck to him - but he is running against the prevailing political machine which has vested interests in the status quo.

[Avid]

I don't like to call it rape; that's such an ugly word. I prefer "suprise sex." Everyone loves a suprise!
"...Unwilling sperm recipient..." -George Carlin

*Yeah, you are right Krazy.

[Monte314]

Yes, KrazyP's wisdom is shining again.

Bill Cosby is an outstanding example of moral courage and concern for people. What he is saying is good for the goose AND the gander: People of all backgrounds need to begin acting on the fact that personal responsibility is necessary for personal success. This begins with self-preparation for participation in a technological society.

[reb]

up until 2003, the mbe was 'off limits' to 'people of color'. therefore, they were so confused, they had no opportunity to classify themselves into 'subgroups', and warred against themselves and everyone else. in fact, i had read that women were not allowed to take the mbe until the millennium (was that 2000 or 2001 or 1999?). these things MUST be corrected...this world will not be complete until we are all equal in every respect....i will have to start carrying a sign on the corner of main and drag.

ahem. trying to be serious, my adopted brother is 'black'. to me, there is no color there. he's just my brother. in this culture, one can be insulted for all sorts of things. i remember when it became worse to be called racial epithets than to be called 'a lazy good for nothing scru off'. this has been only in the last 30 years.

i don't watch a person of color any closer than i do the transparent ones. i watch the whole batch as closely as my attention deficit disorder will let me. otoh, around here, i have to 'play the game' like 'they' are the enemy. to quote pogo (one of my favorites) 'we have met the enemy, and he is us.'

color, sex, economic status, social status-malarkey.... distractions to keep us from dealing with the real problem, which is usually in the mirror.

what i want is reparations from the viking peoples who raped-uh, surprised with sex-my scottish ancestors in the 700s. those dang scandihoovieans left me with trace dna, and i can prove that the current view of them being 'so civilized' is calumny!
reb

[rwyatt365]

My...oh...my.

Words cannot express my sadness at reading the initiating post. I know that there are people that think this way, but I wouldn't have thought to run into that here.

I will surpress the anger that immediately rises when I encounter this kind of mindset (because it is counter-productive, and would only strengthen the argument of the OP). I will, instead, offer the following metaphor;

If you beat a dog long enough, you will either create a raging monster, or a cowering wreck. That dog will either snap at anyone and everyone, and attack at the slightest provocation. Or that dog will be afraid of the approach of anyone. In either case, you shouldn't admonish the dog for the work that you have done to make it be what it is. Instead, examine the things that have created that beast and fix the cause - the dog's behavior is merely a symptom.

"The black people" are not all good, neither are they all bad - they (we) are people.

[blueback]

To be fair, he did present his theory up front and then attempt to support it.
The facts are that the black people are substantially more prone to committing horribly grave offenses including rape, murder, armed robbery and assault.
Of course, he did a poor job.

I'm pretty sure this theory doesn't stand up to analysis, but I can't say for sure. There are genetic differences between caucasian americans and african americans, that's an established fact. It is theoretically possible those genetic differences would influence behavior. Of course, there are also cultural differences that can influence behavior. There are also environmental differences that can influence behavior. Define the variables, control every other variable, and see what happens.

[Fej]

To be fair, he did present his theory up front and then attempt to support it.

Of course, he did a poor job.


Poor job? He added statistics to support his statement.

[Karamazov]

Poor job? He added statistics to support his statement.
What is clear are your statistics are inadequate for proving the assertions you have made because they do not account for issues such as income, level of education, crimes unreported, and inequitable treatment in the justice system. Inferential statistics must always be treated as correlations and not causes, and there are simply too many variables that are unaccounted to come to the conclusions you have.

I thought that summed it up quite nicely.

[Jakalwarrior]

All emotions and feelings aside you have another Nature vs Nurture debate. The requisite statistical data to suggest correlation to either nature or nuture would require a grand experiment, which will never happen. That aside, is it not possible for somone with the genes you label as flawed to exist as a higher member of society if given the right nurture? Surely it must because it happens!. Pair that with your knowledge of cultural differences that exist and you end with a pretty easy observation: Raise a kid with non-violent education focused culture and you get somone who is much more likely to succeed, reguardless of race... Raise a kid on thug culture with no emphasis on education and you get a person who is much more likely to fail reguardless of race. If that isn't enough to quell your doubts then do some research on just how much affect childhood mental stimulation and learning affects a human being. There have been some interesting psychological studies on it.

[Sequoia]

Now this may come across strange to many, being as the whole "racial equality" fad has taken such root these past recent years, but the black people, or better yet, African Americans, are retrospectively inferior beings in terms of calculated use towards the betterment of society as a whole. Now it is not uncommon for members of the far left to cry in outrage at such a non-politically correct sentiment, however, that doesn’t change the facts. The facts are that the black people are substantially more prone to committing horribly grave offenses including rape, murder, armed robbery and assault. For example, between the years 2001 and 2003, blacks were 39 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than reverse and 136 times to commit robbery. Furthermore, during these same years blacks committed, on average, 15,400 black-on-white rapes per year, while whites averaged only 900 white-on-black rapes per year. Maybe that explains why the black people make only 13% of the countries population and yet they make up nearly half the countries prison population. In some states this discrepancy is even greater, what with illinois having a 15% black people population and yet a 65% black prison population.

Personally, I found these numbers almost difficult to believe. How could anything that suggested that whites were better for society than blacks possibly be true? Wasn’t I always told that there was no difference between whites and blacks? Well I for one, consider it a possibility that we live in a horribly, corrupt and racist society where the police are racist, employers are racist, prosecutors are racist, jury are members racist, judges are racist, and just about everybody else, racist, for then we have a perfectly rational and politically correct explanation for why the black people are being jailed a bit more frequently… though how can racism exist in America when kids are getting Martin Luther king’s day off for school? I mean, I see plenty of black judges, lawyers, employers, law enforcement officers, not to mention presidential candidates, how can they all be racist and why would they treat their own people differently?

Call me a racist, call me a bigot, call me ignorant, call me whatever you’d like, the bottom line is that if one group of people is significantly more prone to commit horribly heinous crimes than another group of people, and if I don’t want horribly heinous crimes committed against myself or those I care about, then why wouldn’t I try to avoid one group of people over the other?

There have been so many logical arguments refuting these assertations, I can think of no more to add. So I am going to take a different approach.

I wish to offer my sympathies to those members of INTJf who are african american. You did not deserve to be sucker punched like this.

I know how it feels; I deal with antisemitism from time to time in the most unexpected of places.

In the end, genetically, we are all one species with all the same range of behaviors available to us. The amount of melanin a person's skin happens to produce doesn't change that.

[blueback]

I was gonna say "then why are black people better dancers?" but then I remembered that I know a black guy who's a horrible dancer. If only I could hold multiple contradictory thoughts in my head at one time; conclusions would be so much easier to reach.

[Reon]

There have been so many logical arguments refuting these assertations, I can think of no more to add. So I am going to take a different approach.

I wish to offer my sympathies to those members of INTJf who are african american. You did not deserve to be sucker punched like this.

I know how it feels; I deal with antisemitism from time to time in the most unexpected of places.

In the end, genetically, we are all one species with all the same range of behaviors available to us. The amount of melanin a person's skin happens to produce doesn't change that.

Although I don't like how the question was asked (The black people? srsly?) but it 'is' a legitimate question and he did support his statement. I can't state much that hasn't been stated already so...yeah. we are all humans, not some sub class of a 'wasp' (Sorry, got to get back to practicing)

[muguly]

I was really hoping this thread wouldn't last this long but since it has....

....what "the statistics" don't show are the amount of successful, educated, wealthy black people. There is rarely a study done to highlight the positives of "minority" races so when the "researchers" release their findings on "minority" stats they are only showing the negative side of things.

For instance, did you know that weight lifting actually damages your muscles? The act of weight lifting causes tears in the muscle fiber which is what the soreness is the following day.

Now, I left out all the benefits of weight training and only focused on the damage it does to the muscles. If someone were to read my study, they would conclude that weight training is not productive. Get it?

[rahdam]

we are all humans, not some sub class of a 'wasp' ...

We are all humans, but there are very tangible genetic differences between the races; do you think it is a conincidence that EVERY man in the 100m final in Beijing was of African descent?

That said, I agree with others that on the subject of the issue raised, the statistics presented by the OP are most likely the result of hundreds of years of institutionalized rascism rather than any genetic predisposition.

[Tocsin]

We are all humans, but there are very tangible genetic differences between the races; do you think it is a conincidence that EVERY man in the 100m final in Beijing was of African descent?

Just out of curiousity, is there anyone here who believes that differences between the capabilities of people, physical or intellectual, justify diefferences in how we treat each other, as people?

Is a "white person" more or less of a person than a "black person?"

Is a "strong person" more or less of a person than a "weak person?"

Is a "smart person" more or less of a person than a "dumb person?"

[rahdam]

People have different capabilities, but should not generally justify differences in how we treat each other. However, if I know someone is not particularly intelligent, there is a very low probability that I will attempt a discussion of quantum mechanics with that individual. Technically, this is treating this one individual differently. But is it wrong?

The answer to your question, in my mind, would come in shades of gray. Generally speaking, differences in capability should not justify differences in treatment, but certain cases can be constructed.

edit: I reread your post. With a newfound emphasis on "as people," there is no difference. We are all people. But on an individual level, I think that it is justifiable in cases as described above to treat people differently based upon capability. Classroom teachers do it every day; it's called differential instruction.

[enWTFp]

Check out the Stanford Prison Experiment. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Iterate over populations.

It's not about the genes of pigmentation, it's about social labeling, over many generations. It's a cyclic process. The labeled label themselves too, as a defensive mechanism.

It's all about grouping people nowadays, and that's the easiest way to form the "teams". It doesn't matter at all the real qualities, the real potential of individuals. I bet the average birth potential does not differentiate much between most of the groups we could test: races, nationalities, social classes, etc. But as long as you form "teams", and put a social cycle of generations of labeling - you get increasing discrepancy.

The right question here is: what should we do?

Should we participate in the cycle to get it worse, or should we resist? It's a tough question. It's like the question whether to run with the herd towards their common tragedy in undefined future, or to resist and face all the negative consequences right now. Of course, the majority choose to continue the run, even if most of them are aware it's a run in the wrong direction.

It's all about the scales, and the time frames you choose to think about.

[zibber]

What if law making and enforcement was biased? If corruption, fraud and other "white collar" crimes (some of which probably aren't even classified as such) were dealt with as decisively as something as relatively innocent (trivial, even) as the marijuana trade (quite a factor in the insane amount of underpriviliged people in jail), your little statistics would already change drastically. (That's an interesting word by the way, isn't it? Underprivileged? Ever heard about the poor guy stealing bread for his family?)

To go even further back, what the heck is the "betterment of society"? You probably refer to the betterment of society as viewed by white westerners, looking through your own caucasian frame.

We are all humans, but there are very tangible genetic differences between the races; do you think it is a conincidence that EVERY man in the 100m final in Beijing was of African descent?

Good example; I find it very hard to believe that genetic differences between the races of man are limited to pigmentation and other superficial qualities. Whether such differences could really lead to such an all-consuming genetic predisposition for violence/crime, however, considering the conventional conditioning most somewhat privileged people enjoy, is quite doubtful.

[Deliberator]

"The Black People" sounds like a good title for a terrible B horror movie.

There actually is a vampire b-movie out there called "Blacula". I want to see it!

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[rewhu]

...the betterment of society...

I cannot stand that word. I know it’s real but it sounds made up and that just grates on my nerves.

"The Black People" sounds like a good title for a terrible B horror movie.

HA!! I only entered this thread because based on the title I thought it was a clever new nickname for INTJs! Disappointed and disturbed yet again. If I had known I never would’ve come in here.

...I know that there are people that think this way, but I wouldn't have thought to run into that here...

Agreed. I only quoted a portion but I think your post was very well put.

[Reon]

What if law making and enforcement was biased? If corruption, fraud and other "white collar" crimes (some of which probably aren't even classified as such) were dealt with as decisively as something as relatively innocent (trivial, even) as the marijuana trade (quite a factor in the insane amount of underpriviliged people in jail), your little statistics would already change drastically. (That's an interesting word by the way, isn't it? Underprivileged? Ever heard about the poor guy stealing bread for his family?)

To go even further back, what the heck is the "betterment of society"? You probably refer to the betterment of society as viewed by white westerners, looking through your own caucasian frame.



Good example; I find it very hard to believe that genetic differences between the races of man are limited to pigmentation and other superficial qualities. Whether such differences could really lead to such an all-consuming genetic predisposition for violence/crime, however, considering the conventional conditioning most somewhat privileged people enjoy, is quite doubtful.

I think we do have 'genetic differences' and an example of this (to me) is diseases like diabetes/high blood pressure, that effect 'black' people more than they do white. Since the guy I quoted, quoted, something about the african american runners in the olympics, you think 'black' people are more physically adept than white?

Another question, the op grouped the 'black' people into one group but thats just a color (and even at that, you can't really say your 100% black most of the time) what about the 'black' people culturally? I'm black in race but culturally, I'm very 'white'. As a black person, does my race make me more prone to murder someone?

(Sorry, just got home from school, if its hard to understand.

[JustMel]

INTJs should know that statistics don't mean squat. Statistics can be skewed any way you want them to in MOST cases depending on the parameters you set when gathering the data.

I live in the south and I can tell you that there are just as many ghetto fabulous jackasses in the black and white communities.

My daddy has black neighbors on one side and white on the other---I like the black ones better--they are quieter, more social when it comes to passing them, they mowed my dad's yard and didn't even tell him--took him 4 days to find out who did it so he could thank them. When their mower was stolen it was my dad "the white man" who got with the neighborhood gossip mongers (the old, retired white guys) and found out where it was and who had it so the guy got his mower back. The white neighbors are hard pressed to pick their beer cans out of the yard.

I know white people who have been on welfare for the last 5 generations and there is not a damn thing wrong with them other than they fooled some Dr into thinking they were disabled. Laziness is NOT a disability. I know just as many black people living on welfare because daddy and/or mom is in prison for drugs, hot checks, burglary.....etc, etc. My husband's own neice in is prison for 2 of the three and mine is in FEDERAL prison for prostitution of minors and transporting them across state lines because when her black pimp got busted with underage girls she had her white butt right there with him.

It's not based on color and while a case can be made for nature vs nurture SOME of the time sometimes I believe you are just prewired to be less than you can be and some are wired to succeed no matter the odds.

If you are one of the people who feels the need to judge people based on the color of their skin you, IMO, should be the one to take a long walk off the short pier. Regardless of whether you are black judging white or vice versa. Color should not matter. Ability, intelligence, and general character is what makes the person.

Prison populations differ depending on area of the country you are in as well.

[Sequoia]

Ability, intelligence, and general character is what makes the person.

Need anything more be said? Exactly!

[JustMel]

Need anything more be said? Exactly!

You know me, it takes me half a page to say what I could have said in 10 words..............oh well it either makes me annoying or endearing and I don't care which...

[Aeroscoper]

Odd OP, but an even more odd the emotionally driven reactions. Though the OP made a few leaps to lead to certain conclusion and lacked much support for his premise, the violent reaction to this is quite surprising amongst INTJ's.

I too consider it more of a cultural thing than a race thing. But something to consider, there have been many large groups of immigrants that have come to this country that have been subjected to almost identical environmental challenges, that have succeeded in overcoming them to infiltrate the mainstream, and don't succumb to criminal behavior for survival.

The Irish during the potato blight, the Italians, the Polish, the Dutch, the Chinese, Koreans, etc etc etc. The one major difference is the "cultural mindset". There's never been a group of people that ever succeeded in history that relied on guilt of the oppressors for their well-being.

The culture that Bill Cosby denounces that is so prevalent in black communities is highly self-defeatist. And I agree with him in that those that sympathize are "enablers" and feed into a mentality that won't allow them to overcome and succeed as a group as a whole for a sustainable amount of time.

The "slavery" issue is one of pure emotions. If the logic is that any group of people will fail due to slavery and prejudice and ills done against them as a group, then Jews should rank the highest in poverty and everything else. Don't recall them having much issues getting jobs. The Japanese enslaved Chinese and Koreans, as a matter of fact, everyone alive today probably has an ancestor that's been enslaved at one time or another. That logic is very short-sighted.

It's amazing how we're allowed to speak our minds on this forum about anything from masturbation practices to how idiotic Christians are, yet to bringing up a topic about race garners such a hostile reaction.

It seems no temperment is impervious to the political correct influence.

Mindcrime and thought police should follow shortly. It always has.

[Sequoia]

You know me, it takes me half a page to say what I could have said in 10 words..............oh well it either makes me annoying or endearing and I don't care which...

Mel, the rest of what you said wasn't superfluous. It's just those 10 words summed up nicely what I felt about judging people based on any other criterea.

[muguly]

Odd OP, but an even more odd the emotionally driven reactions. Though the OP made a few leaps to lead to certain conclusion and lacked much support for his premise, the violent reaction to this is quite surprising amongst INTJ's.

I too consider it more of a cultural thing than a race thing. But something to consider, there have been many large groups of immigrants that have come to this country that have been subjected to almost identical environmental challenges, that have succeeded in overcoming them to infiltrate the mainstream, and don't succumb to criminal behavior for survival.

The Irish during the potato blight, the Italians, the Polish, the Dutch, the Chinese, Koreans, etc etc etc. The one major difference is the "cultural mindset". There's never been a group of people that ever succeeded in history that relied on guilt of the oppressors for their well-being.

The culture that Bill Cosby denounces that is so prevalent in black communities is highly self-defeatist. And I agree with him in that those that sympathize are "enablers" and feed into a mentality that won't allow them to overcome and succeed as a group as a whole for a sustainable amount of time.

The "slavery" issue is one of pure emotions. If the logic is that any group of people will fail due to slavery and prejudice and ills done against them as a group, then Jews should rank the highest in poverty and everything else. Don't recall them having much issues getting jobs. The Japanese enslaved Chinese and Koreans, as a matter of fact, everyone alive today probably has an ancestor that's been enslaved at one time or another. That logic is very short-sighted.

It's amazing how we're allowed to speak our minds on this forum about anything from masturbation practices to how idiotic Christians are, yet to bringing up a topic about race garners such a hostile reaction.

It seems no temperment is impervious to the political correct influence.

Mindcrime and thought police should follow shortly. It always has.


Understood, however you must include the fact that though those groups of people were put through hell, they were put through together. Africans were taken from their tribes and forced to live with others who didn't speak their language. Then, forced to live by skin pigmentation; the fairer skinned people living in the master's house and the darker skinned people living the fields.
The amount of segregation that was forced upon the slaves for 300+years became part of the culture;you followed the rules and norms so you could live.

I'm not saying it is an excuse for anyones behavior but, unfortunately, those slave mentalities still reside is some people. So while I understand that every other ethnic group had hard times, it's not the same as the enslavement
of millions over the course of 300+ years.
Just a side side note: the slaves that came to America were seem as easy to manipulate and enslave, the others were seen as too strong or arrogant and therefore left in the Caribbean Islands.

[Little Bo Peep]

Although I think that Malotis is a troll I want to add to the issue of statistics.
The serial Killer statistics:
84% - caucasian
90% - male
76% - american





Little Bo Peep added to this post, 26 minutes and 51 seconds later...

here is more: sex offenders:
rape - 56% - white; 42% - black; 2% - other races.
other arrested sex offenders - 75% white





Little Bo Peep added to this post, 8 minutes and 38 seconds later...

"The second major source of crime data is the NCVS, administered by the Bureau of the Census for the Bureau of Justice Statistics. By sampling the general population about criminal victimization, the NCVS is able to uncover unreported crimes and describe the characteristics and relationships between victims and offenders. Overall, while the NCVS also indicates disproportionate involvement of racial minorities in street crime, the gap between minorities and whites is typically smaller than is apparent in the UCR (Walker et al.). African Americans account for 52 percent of all personal victimizations, including 49 percent of all violent crimes (excluding homicide, which is not determined by the NCVS). Hispanics account for nearly 49 percent of all victimizations, including 43 percent of violence. Although the vast majority of most crimes are committed intraracially (that is, white on white or black on black), respondents in the NCVS perceived that only 25 percent of violent offenders were African American (Bureau of Justice Statistics). These data, together with the much higher arrest rates of minorities for violent crimes, suggest that minorities probably commit fewer crimes than their arrest rates would suggest but are disproportionately caught and punished for the crimes they do commit.

Finally, one major explanatory factor that must be taken into consideration when studying disproportionate minority representation in crime is the socioeconomic status of minorities in American society. Despite legislative and judicial decisions over the past several decades, African Americans and other racial minorities remain as much or more residentially segregated at the turn of the millennium as before the monumental changes in the 1950s and 1960s (Massey and Denton). The ghetto experience is typical for most African Americans, including the entrenched poverty, unemployment, poor schools, and lack of social opportunities that are associated with such transitional and "disorganized" neighborhoods (Hagan; Wilson). Indeed, the various inequalities that exist within ghetto communities have been linked to numerous crimes, particularly homicide (Kovandzic, Vieraitis, and Yeisley).

Combined, these sources indicate that racial minorities (particularly African Americans and Hispanics) are disproportionately involved in street crime, victimized by street crime, and brought under the control and supervision of the criminal justice system. Furthermore, street crimes are more characteristic of impoverished, inner city, and ghetto neighborhoods; and occur more often among the nonemployed, young, and male. These same groups also appear to be more likely to penetrate deeper into the criminal justice system, with racial disproportionality increasing at each successive step into the system.

There is a near complete absence of valid or reliable white-collar, corporate, and governmental crime statistics in the UCR and NCVS measurements. This is an extremely important void when considering the relationship between race and crime, because by even the most conservative estimates street crimes account for only a fraction of all crimes. Nonetheless, American media, politicians, public, and even criminologists tend to focus on street crime, thereby dramatizing and potentially exaggerating the real racial over-representations of racial minorities in crime and the criminal justice system."To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[SeaCzar]

I really did not want to comment on this thread, but feel compelled to now. Leaving all of the statistics and cultural issues aside, one thing rings true: Success is easier for someone in the United States if they are white. Period. And this is coming from one who is about as WASPy as you can get.

[Wuchak]

I detest bigotry. And I loathe narrow-minded oversimplifications. If this thread existed at all it should have been framed for the purpose of causal analysis and discussion of how to improve the causal systems.

[Aeroscoper]

Understood, however you must include the fact that though those groups of people were put through hell, they were put through together. Africans were taken from their tribes and forced to live with others who didn't speak their language. Then, forced to live by skin pigmentation; the fairer skinned people living in the master's house and the darker skinned people living the fields.
The amount of segregation that was forced upon the slaves for 300+years became part of the culture;you followed the rules and norms so you could live.

I'm not saying it is an excuse for anyones behavior but, unfortunately, those slave mentalities still reside is some people. So while I understand that every other ethnic group had hard times, it's not the same as the enslavement
of millions over the course of 300+ years.
Just a side side note: the slaves that came to America were seem as easy to manipulate and enslave, the others were seen as too strong or arrogant and therefore left in the Caribbean Islands.

It seems you feel that the slave event of the African blacks is somehow rated higher on the "harsh" scale than slaves from other time periods. You point out several specifics of events that of course is horrific, yet to do so is to lessen the specific horrific trauma's that each slave group over the ages must have suffered. Using the Jewish experience is most likely over-kill and generalized, but considering how many times they've been enslaved, and the death camps and incineration chambers during WWII, I don't think the experiences you've cited alone can explain away much. This is a highly emotional one and not one that can easily be discussed rationally, but far from what's being taught nowadays, slavery and the atrocities that are associated with them have occurred as long as man has existed. The only real thing that's unique about the American slave chapter of history is that a portion of the en slavers chose to kill their own on behalf of the slaves, instead of a violent revolt by the oppressed, or an outside entity liberating them.

Wealth and the luxury of sentiments have always lead to similar mindsets in people of great nations. Rome is a great example of this.

Our society has very successfully demonized the white race to the point that even those of their own race hold a guilt and shame to what is nothing more than human nature. This coming from a very non-white. If you think this type of behavior is somehow originated with the whites, take a look at Monrovia (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), even the freed slaves held themselves in higher regard than the others, just human nature.
Unless this is made known and the past is no longer regarded as acceptable reasons for failure, the status quo will continue until this country guilts itself to oblivion.

And in any crime statistic, you have to regard them as percentages per race. To look at overall statistics when whites make up a huge majority of the population is misleading.

And stating a person of the majority race of any country is able to obtain a job more readily than a minority of the land is not only naive, but inaccurate. With today's quota systems, if there are two individuals with similar accomplishments and credentials applying for the same job/school, the minority will always have the advantage now. If you don't believe this talk to someone in a HR dept for a large corporation, University, or someone involved with government contracting. And go to Japan as a white guy and try to get a job, or go to Italy as an Asian...

I'm sure most will regard anyone speaking this way as "racist", as you're programmed to do, but then so are Thomas Sowell (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), Shelby Steele (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), Armstrong Williams (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), Walter Williams (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), and Clarence Thomas (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), great men who happen to share many of these same beliefs, and men that prove that much of those excuses used by many are nothing but that, excuses. It's not the race, it's the culture, one that's doing something that hundreds of years of slavery failed to do, destroy the black family and community. The fact is that the black population in the U.S. has increased in wealth and influence faster than any other population of blacks ever in recorded history, a large part of that due to whites. It's available for those that can fend off the victim mentality, and exercise the unique opportunities this country provides. The "victimization" mentality is one that's always benefited a political party and not necessarily those they claim to "help". People need to stop looking to politicians for help and salvation, it's never worked in the past and it will never work in the future.

*end of rant*


I detest bigotry. And I loathe narrow-minded oversimplifications. If this thread existed at all it should have been framed for the purpose of causal analysis and discussion of how to improve the causal systems.

Ignorance tops my list of "things to loathe". Populist censorship is another.

[muguly]

What culture do you speak of? The black culture? The hip-hop culture? The lack of education culture? I think you missed my point: the years of, for lack of a better term, institutionalization has had detrimental effects on the black culture. So much so that it's become almost impossible for some to over come what has naturally or artificially ingrained into their minds. Just like someone who has been in prison for most of their lives; they are programed to ask permission to do everything, they are programed to eat and sleep at a certain time. It's a hard thing to break. And, saying that the prosperity of blacks is largely due to whites is a little far fetched. Their success and prosperity is due to those who fought for civil rights. It's due to programs that were either put into or taken out of place to some what level the playing field. Now, with that said, there is no excuse for people to constantly blame "the man" for their problems, but in some instances it is a general lack of funding, education, resources, support, etc., that leads to a class of people who resort to criminal activities to make ends meet. If the things that are available in middle class suburbia were available in the lower class neighborhoods then there would be less crime. I have been in several schools, some in the suburbs, some in the lower income places, and the difference in resources is astounding. I have seen libraries that only have one wall of book for an entire school of children. I have also seen classrooms with a computer for every child in the class. Problems like these fall directly on the politicians because at the end of the day, they are the ones who allocate where the funds go. Maybe it's just me........I'm done.

[Fej]

So much so that it's become almost impossible for some to over come what has naturally or artificially ingrained into their minds. Just like someone who has been in prison for most of their lives; they are programed to ask permission to do everything, they are programed to eat and sleep at a certain time.

Oh c'mon, don't be so dramatic. That's bullshit.
That's called manners, something that the majority of blacks lack.

[blueback]

How can a majority of a group lack something that is so hard to define?

[Lights]

Oh c'mon, don't be so dramatic. That's bullshit.
That's called manners, something that the majority of blacks lack.

Is that suppose to be a joke?

[Neuro]

I WISH this person was a troll so I could at least read some manifesto or something. Race and religion forum fights are so tedious.

[Lights]

I WISH this person was a troll so I could at least read some manifesto or something. Race and religion forum fights are so tedious.

That is because they aren't based on anything but intuition and subjective experience. They are simply arbitrary arguments an individual makes to make themselves feel superior to other individuals. But it seems to be a common pattern that people embrace narcissism and arrogance when they don't feel secure enough in themselves. Probably, as blueback suggested, because those traits have been selected for their ability to help us survive in a tribal world. Which is undoubtedly why racists and bigots form their own little tribes in order to avoid isolation and protect themselves from being confronted by opposing views.

[Aeroscoper]

The same culture you're referring to.

I hope you can see what I'm saying and not think I'm "hatin", I'm not. If anything I'm frustrated at what's being done to the group as a whole by some in government.

That said I've said all that I should and I'll leave it with one thing, your entire argument is premised by the fact that money can fix everything, or be the cause of so many ills. I disagree. I've grown up in the same types of schools as you and there were good/bad kids/students at each of them. The delineating factor wasn't money, it was always the family and culture their families chose to participate in.

And I've seen Chinese/white/hispanic kids grow up in "black culture" mentality and they tend to fail as well. It's the culture, not the race.

Take it easy.

[Sequoia]

The same culture you're referring to.

I hope you can see what I'm saying and not think I'm "hatin", I'm not. If anything I'm frustrated at what's being done to the group as a whole by some in government.

That said I've said all that I should and I'll leave it with one thing, your entire argument is premised by the fact that money can fix everything, or be the cause of so many ills. I disagree. I've grown up in the same types of schools as you and there were good/bad kids/students at each of them. The delineating factor wasn't money, it was always the family and culture their families chose to participate in.

And I've seen Chinese/white/hispanic kids grow up in "black culture" mentality and they tend to fail as well. It's the culture, not the race.

Take it easy.

It's not the culture of blacks, but the culture of thugs and gangs. I watched it arise through the decades and watched it get strong with the rise in popularity of rap and the messages it spread; watched the messages spread beyond that segment of popular culture and permiate so many areas. It was made worse by "leaders" and "experts" that claimed it was not their fault, but the fault of the oppressors solely; but these people had other agendas and were using this as an excuse to further them. This process still continues. In the meantime, those who embrace this culture of "what's in it for me and mine and the rest of you don't matter and the rules don't apply to me" lovingly teach their children these values who in turn are now having babies as teens. So now we have 3 generations in some families of this destructive culture. And since this culture was popularized into the mainstream by entertainment industries emphasizing coolness, this culture spread to all ethnic groups and around the world.

Those people who have avoided this destructive culture are no less black for it, or no less a member of any culture they choose to belong to.

[GuerrillaVoyage]

Man you know seriously I salute this thread and I salute the original poster for bringing up a taboo subject in such a brutally honest way. I think his original post was attempting to be more shocking and angry than honest dialouge but the subject of race still should be talked about in our culture and not feared.

With that said I completely disagree with most of the original post. In my opinion a human brain is a human brain, a human soul is a human soul regardless of where it's ancesters are from. DNA doesn't have a race. So you can't really blame someone for their race if it has no effect on their character or intelligence. So what makes a stereotypical black person different from a stereotypical white person? The culture. and this is where I'm probably about to offend some people. I think the modern black culture is programming the black society to be ignorant, stupid, and stereotypical. I mean how ridiculously racist and stereotypical is BET. In my opinion so much of mainstream rap is absolute garbage (well... to be fair you could say that about most mainstream music these days). It seems what's marketing towards black society is suppressing and negative. I mean what happened with the absolute revolution in thinking in black culture in the 70s and the re-emergence in the 90s? It's like it totally disappeared. You rarely see those ideals in how the black culture is being marketed too. And so rarely does black created art surface in the mainstream. I think The Boondocks is the first black show that was really given a chance in the mainstream since Fresh Prince of Bel-Air (you could say some of those shows on Fox and UPN but honestly I never felt those networks treated those show as potential flagship or franchise shows, I always thought they were more gimmicky) and The Boondocks is in my opinion the best show in the last decade. Also it seems to me that education in the black community is frowned upon. I don't mean that in a racist way but it seems to me that a black person who tries to educate themselves is frowned upon because it's thought to be "too white". And I mean what role models do black kids have? It's the only real black dominated art form is rap and most rappers claim they're involved with crime or other non-productive things and engaging in those is how they made it to role model status. I just think the black community has been programmed to fail. And what's trippy to me is there was such surge of black independence and freedom of the body and mind in the 70s. One of my favorite speeches of all-time which I find a lot of interest in was The Ballot of The Bullet given by Malcolm X. You had so much ridiculously awesome writing, movies and music coming out of the black community and it seemed like they were going to make it and then a lot of that energy just seemed to evaporate. It kind of came back in the late 80s and early 90s. However, now I think this black generation is just being programmed with negative stuff.

I don't know, those are my thoughts. I hope I don't offend anyone with them. To me race is such a weird thing to get mad about because it doesn't trigger anything in me. My old girlfriend used to call me every racist slur she could think of and it never triggered anything in me, in fact I was confused as to why she thought those words were insults. However, I do acknowledge that it totally triggers something in black people which I just don't understand but want to be respectful and mindful of.

[Claptonian]

Oh c'mon, don't be so dramatic. That's bullshit.
That's called manners, something that the majority of blacks lack.

Have you actually come into contact with "the majority of blacks"? :laugh:

[Fej]

Have you actually come into contact with "the majority of blacks"? :laugh:

Its almost impossible to stay away from them. Of course I've come across nice, well-mannered blacks. In fact my best "acquaintances" (I don't say friends because I don't have any) are black. And they themselves talk about the degrading of black people.

[enfpchick]

I'm black
lol just wanted to throw that in.

[Reon]

Voyage brought up a good point (Seems odd that we are still talking about this, but ok) that education is considered 'white'. Like I said in one of my earlier post that I have been culturally raised white and that does include education wise. In most of my ap classes I am one of the only two black men in the room and in my electives I'm usually the 'smart' kid that doesn't talk. Most of my friends are white, as well, because of the fact that i'm 'to white' or 'he's gay because he doesn't fuck anything that moves'

I think that the 'thug' culture that so many people seem to be into is highly defeatist and, now that I think about it, between the 70's and now I can see a big difference between the optimism and abilities of black people.

[Neuro]

I'm black

*pat* ;)

[Mechanical Messiah]

Fej brings up a valid point. Let's say my wife and I sit down in a movie theatre... and a group of young black males walks in and sits near us. I know from experience that we're gonna have to get up and move... or we won't be able to hear the movie.

That said... I wouldn't be too quick to make blanket statements about ethnic groups, ESPECIALLY if you're going to blame genetics. Do the math: over ten generations, you have over a THOUSAND ancestors. You could have ANY ethnic group in your background. I found out only a few years ago that I have a significant amount of Native Amerikan in me... including Cherokee (which according to one theory- a long and twisted story involving the Spanish Explorer Lasalle- have a significant proportion of Turkish ancestry). So I'm part Whitey, part Injun, possibly part Turk... and probably several other things. But culturally, I'm whiter than Pat Buchanon.

I read a statistic years ago saying that 99% of black americans had at least one white ancestor, and 25% of white Americans have at least one black ancestor. I suspect that actually numbers are even less 'pure' as few Americans really know much at all about their family history.

[Aeroscoper]

I would agree with the culture of thugs and gangs, and entertainment being a very powerful drive behind how ubiquitous it's gotten. There's nothing in your post that I haven't witnessed myself over the years and have come to the same conclusions. One thing I would point out though is that the largest group that supports those vehicles of mass indoctrination into this culture tend to be black. As another poster pointed out, BET, rappers, many of the sports celebrities, they all embrace and support the beliefs and mindset of this "thug culture", and are mostly targeted and purchased by the black population. Of course they're all guilty of exploiting their own people for monetary gain, just look at Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. To me it's a travesty of justice to see Dr. King's message of personal responsibility and character valuation co-mingled with today's message of hate, vengeance, reverse discrimination, hypocrisy, entitlement and materialism. And of course the politicians that can only stay in power with such a destructive industrial/political complex in place are the ultimate scumbags and hold much, of not most, of the culpability.

It's not the culture of blacks, but the culture of thugs and gangs. I watched it arise through the decades and watched it get strong with the rise in popularity of rap and the messages it spread; watched the messages spread beyond that segment of popular culture and permiate so many areas. It was made worse by "leaders" and "experts" that claimed it was not their fault, but the fault of the oppressors solely; but these people had other agendas and were using this as an excuse to further them. This process still continues. In the meantime, those who embrace this culture of "what's in it for me and mine and the rest of you don't matter and the rules don't apply to me" lovingly teach their children these values who in turn are now having babies as teens. So now we have 3 generations in some families of this destructive culture. And since this culture was popularized into the mainstream by entertainment industries emphasizing coolness, this culture spread to all ethnic groups and around the world.

Those people who have avoided this destructive culture are no less black for it, or no less a member of any culture they choose to belong to.

[Reon]

Ehrm, I'm a bit confused here, it seems like its ok to be 'racist' but only to a certain extent? (Unless I'm inferred something wrong)

Edit: I said that wrong, I meant that it seems like its ok to expect certain behavior from a group of people.

Edit 2: The people who don't fall into the culture are constantly being told that they are 'rejecting' their own people, its not an easy thing to constantly hear.

[Aeroscoper]

Fej brings up a valid point. Let's say my wife and I sit down in a movie theatre... and a group of young black males walks in and sits near us. I know from experience that we're gonna have to get up and move... or we won't be able to hear the movie.

That said... I wouldn't be too quick to make blanket statements about ethnic groups, ESPECIALLY if you're going to blame genetics. Do the math: over ten generations, you have over a THOUSAND ancestors. You could have ANY ethnic group in your background. I found out only a few years ago that I have a significant amount of Native Amerikan in me... including Cherokee (which according to one theory- a long and twisted story involving the Spanish Explorer Lasalle- have a significant proportion of Turkish ancestry). So I'm part Whitey, part Injun, possibly part Turk... and probably several other things. But culturally, I'm whiter than Pat Buchanon.

I read a statistic years ago saying that 99% of black americans had at least one white ancestor, and 25% of white Americans have at least one black ancestor. I suspect that actually numbers are even less 'pure' as few Americans really know much at all about their family history.

Thus it's not race, it's culture, and the black race in this country fall prey to the trappings of this culture more than others.


I'm black
lol just wanted to throw that in.

I hope the things I write can be seen for what I'm truly saying and not what it may seem to many. My brother in law is black and I've received many of these sentiments from hanging out with him.


That is because they aren't based on anything but intuition and subjective experience. They are simply arbitrary arguments an individual makes to make themselves feel superior to other individuals. But it seems to be a common pattern that people embrace narcissism and arrogance when they don't feel secure enough in themselves. Probably, as blueback suggested, because those traits have been selected for their ability to help us survive in a tribal world. Which is undoubtedly why racists and bigots form their own little tribes in order to avoid isolation and protect themselves from being confronted by opposing views.

sheesh...

Ehrm, I'm a bit confused here, it seems like its ok to be 'racist' but only to a certain extent? (Unless I'm inferred something wrong)

Edit: I said that wrong, I meant that it seems like its ok to expect certain behavior from a group of people.



It's human nature to do so. Cultures tend to be pretty consistent in their beliefs. I wouldn't find it wise for a yuppie to wander into a bar with a "biker" culture, etc.


Edit 2: The people who don't fall into the culture are constantly being told that they are 'rejecting' their own people, its not an easy thing to constantly hear.

And that's sad and I empathize with these people tremendously. I'm one that's rejected people of certain cultures in my own race and have grown up being ostracized by people from my own family. But success and the empowerment of truth is a reward worth achieving. Something to take heart in, this country rewards such people immensely, by those that aren't too far indoctrinated into the "we're all the same" societal brainwash. They're typically more apathetic to such trials than most. Such irony.

[JustMel]

It's not the culture of blacks, but the culture of thugs and gangs. I watched it arise through the decades and watched it get strong with the rise in popularity of rap and the messages it spread; watched the messages spread beyond that segment of popular culture and permiate so many areas. It was made worse by "leaders" and "experts" that claimed it was not their fault, but the fault of the oppressors solely; but these people had other agendas and were using this as an excuse to further them. This process still continues. In the meantime, those who embrace this culture of "what's in it for me and mine and the rest of you don't matter and the rules don't apply to me" lovingly teach their children these values who in turn are now having babies as teens. So now we have 3 generations in some families of this destructive culture. And since this culture was popularized into the mainstream by entertainment industries emphasizing coolness, this culture spread to all ethnic groups and around the world.

Those people who have avoided this destructive culture are no less black for it, or no less a member of any culture they choose to belong to.

Careful, not all teen mothers teach their children it's okay and that the rules don't apply to them and not all teen mothers were taught that by their parents.

I do agree with the "thugish" behavior being an impact in and of itself. I also agree with someone else who asked what role models these young men and women have and how they tend to be exploited for someone else's gain that is supposed to be on their side.

[rahdam]

I'm going to throw in my two cents here; this is going to be a "P"-type post for sure.

I work in a high school in which there are no white students. Our student makeup is approximately 40% black, and 40% hispanic, and 20% asian. Suffice it to say, there is no representation of white culture. I'm white.

Not to brag, but I am generally thought of as the best teacher in the school according to students because I relate to them better than any of their other teachers, and because I teach them effectively. In their own words, I understand them better than the black teachers ever could. I am routinely told that I must be "black on the inside" by my black students (My hispanic students also think I can get down with the latinos, but that's another story)...

What they don't understand is that my ability to get along with them comes from the fact that I can become whatever is necessary to succeed (classic INTJ trait).

The point of the above is to illustrate that at work, I morph into "one of them" and they do not see me as "white" at all. This allows me to be privy to their fascinating discussions on "white people" (I could write another thread about this sometime). When I raise an eyebrow and joke about "those crazy white people," they are quick to tell me "but you don't count, you are different".

...I'm gonna have to finish this later, I've sat for the last 5 minutes thinking...Ni needs more time to formulate this :-p

Edit: Just to make give some J-type conclusion, my kids, in my opinion, act VERY differently in the presence and absence of white people. There is some racial tension between black and latino students, but its minimal. I'll explain more later.

[Aeroscoper]

Rahdam,

I'm one that would be very interested in some of the things you've experienced first hand with your students. I've spent much time in differing cultures and would enjoy "comparing notes".

Those thoughts would work well in this thread in my opinion.

[Neuro]

The point of the above is to illustrate that at work, I morph into "one of them" and they do not see me as "white" at all. This allows me to be privy to their fascinating discussions on "white people" (I could write another thread about this sometime).

Please.

[Reon]

I'm interested as well, I want to see(well, read)about how you can 'morph' into one of 'them'

[Sequoia]

So would I. I once taught in a school where I too was the only white person; the whole school was black except for one middle eastern student and myself. I had no problems there, and I didn't pretend to be other than who I was. But I was teaching emotionally disabled elementary school children who often came from violent backgrounds. I was able to provide a place of safety and stability for them.

Mel, I wasn't claiming that all teen parents came from such a background nor embraced thug culture, only that I have observed this happening with those that do. It is heart breaking to witness.

Serge, to be ostracised for rejecting the current thug culture must be very painful and a strong incentive for many to accept it. If this is what you are experiencing, I commend you for staying true to your own values.

Just a bit of information; my own slightly extended family has many ethnic groups in it; wasp, jewish, italian, chinese, african american, mexican, native american and south american. It is hard to maintain racial bias in such a family, lol. I sure don't.

[Tigress]

Poor job? He added statistics to support his statement.

as we said before, statistics can be misused. Correlation is not always equivalent to causation.

An example I heard used to illustrate this is this:
Ice cream sales rise and fall with the same timeline as crime rates.

are we to believe that ice cream sales are causing violent crimes?

NO, because both ice cream and crime are more prevalent during the summer months. There is a correlation of rates, but not a causation.

I can agree that it seems that there is crime ridden subculture in poor income city areas. I believe the minorities are extremely prevalent in these areas.
This does seem to be a subculture that is perpetuating these stereotypes and I can't come up with any way to defend those cultures. I am disappointed in their inability to pull themselves up. I am not qualified enough on the data to make a formal judgment though.

[Mozzes]

I'm interested as well, I want to see(well, read)about how you can 'morph' into one of 'them'

Blackface? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[JustMel]

My sister is married to a black man who I like more than her. He's welcome in my house--she is not.

[Aeroscoper]

Blackface? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

:laugh: That's just wrong, but funny.





Aeroscoper added to this post, 0 minutes and 54 seconds later...

My sister's married to a black man too, as much as they argue, I think I"m more welcome in his house than she...heh