Young, Thin, White, and Female

[Malotis]

Thanks to the wonderful public school system, I consider it a privilege to have become reasonably acquainted with many thin white females, several of which are often deemed very attractive as voiced by those obnoxious, insecure males whose need to express how straight they are is so dire that they talk endless bull shit about which girls are hot and which are not and how many girls their currently fucking or have fucked, but that’s not the point.

If it's one thing you can count on about young ytwf, it's that they know a lot of other ytwf's. They form ytwf cliques comprising of an endless mixture of drama, gossip, backstabbing, and pure all around cut throat bitchiness, with 99.9% of conversations typically ranging from calories, eating disorders, boy friends or gossip, all part of a hierarchy where the thinnest of the girls reign supreme. What happens with these cliques from here I would speculate would depend directly on wealth, what with the tiffany jewelry, ugh boots, designer label clothing, and the latest electronic gadgets.

I think what lies at the core of these obnoxious cliques among young females is the desire to be thin. Who can a girl relate to more than someone who wants to be thin as she does? Once a connection is established they can all come out and finally speak openly about their stories of popping prescription meth labeled as diet pills, constantly throwing up after meals, various degrees of hunger pains, exercising like crazy, and doing whatever else it takes to keep that precious calorie count low. Which I guess isn’t all that much of a problem really? I mean when you think about it. The only people I see who get hired at my work are the young thin white females. All the thin white females I know who work gets paid good money for what they do. And what do they do? They get paid to look good. Someone wants to buy something, and when they make that purchase they prefer to do it from something that looks pleasant. If the number is large enough, then who can rationally really say that these girls have a problem?

[Colette]

Ummm....are you referring to the ESFP girl population at large?

I'm guessing none of the INTJ women can relate even vaguely to this phenomenon. I couldn't care less about my weight, bouffante, or how much bling I'm sporting (or not) at any given moment in time..

[Airius]

I'm young, thin, white, and female.
(you can check the picture threads for reference)


Yes, I'm viewed as attractive.
Yes, I know a lot of YTWFs. Among other people.
I do like to be fashionable; designer clothes, a tiffany necklace, and my latest electronic gadget would be my laptop. I am very far from rich, but I am financially savvy.

No, I don't like drama or gossip nor do I associate myself with it.
I'm a surgical tech student. I don't have time for bullshit.

I do not cut my calories, watch what I eat, or take dietary suppliments.
I do not throw up after I eat or stop eating for periods of time.
I don't exercise at all.


I think you're investing too much energy in prejudice.

[Monte314]

If you have nothing upstairs, you have to make the most of what's downstairs.

[mayumi]

I think what lies at the core of these obnoxious cliques among young females is the desire to be thin. Who can a girl relate to more than someone who wants to be thin as she does? Once a connection is established they can all come out and finally speak openly about their stories of popping prescription meth labeled as diet pills, constantly throwing up after meals, various degrees of hunger pains, exercising like crazy, and doing whatever else it takes to keep that precious calorie count low. Which I guess isn’t all that much of a problem really? I mean when you think about it. The only people I see who get hired at my work are the young thin white females. All the thin white females I know who work gets paid good money for what they do. And what do they do? They get paid to look good. Someone wants to buy something, and when they make that purchase they prefer to do it from something that looks pleasant. If the number is large enough, then who can rationally really say that these girls have a problem?

I'm not white, and I can't relate much how it is with ytwf..?. But if you deprived yourself of nutrients when you're a teenager by too much dieting, you'll look like a hag by the time you're 25-30. And if the only thing you exploit is your looks to make a living...that won't last very long will it. If they don't marry rich soon, they don't have a future.

[ScurvyRose]

I would venture this thread was generated from the animosity resulting from a personal experience rather than an interest in the grouping.

Ever watch the movie "Mean Girls", or "Heathers", or any of the hundreds of movies made based on this theme?

Like every stereo type or profile there are those that do not fit the "mold" as well as those who enforce it. It is wholly up to you how you interact with it.

[Lucid]

I would venture this thread was generated from the animosity resulting from a personal experience rather than an interest in the grouping.

Ever watch the movie "Mean Girls", or "Heathers", or any of the hundreds of movies made based on this theme?

Like every stereo type or profile there are those that do not fit the "mold" as well as those who enforce it. It is wholly up to you how you interact with it.

Yes, there seems to be a lot of animosity in the OP.

I'm confused though. Only white females do this? No females of any other ethnicity diet or clique up and act bitchy and shallow? Are we to gather that the OP thinks all young white thin females act this way? :rolleyes:

However, to the OP I would say that once one is out of high school, one's exposure to such people greatly decreases.

[reb]

once, i had a ytwf...she was like laying on a bag of toothpicks with a few rocks mixed in. after that experience, i've tried to pick more padding given a choice....i like 'em 'sleek as a seal'.

give it up...just have sex, and quit analyzing it so much...analysis kills the fun. earplugs help if you don't like what someone says...this is why the ipod is such a hot seller....ipod sex, now that sounds good....
reb

[OneHertz]

I didn't see anything but blind hate in your post. No reasoning no nothing. What did they do to you? YTWFs make this life worth living... Everything in life is about sex whether you admit it or not and they are just playing by the rules.

[Snowdragon]

I'm young, thin, white, and female and I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE HORRIBLE BITCHES YOU DESCRIBED IN YOUR POST *caps lock*.

[enfpchick]

If you have nothing upstairs, you have to make the most of what's downstairs.

OMG I am so using that from now on!
esp. on some of these YTBF i have to deal with.

[changos]

OMG I am so using that from now on!
esp. on some of these YTBF i have to deal with.
Ha, another one here, great line!.

What you describe can be used here where I live to describe a group of girls from X university... people take like 5 seconds to say the same name... Yes, they are very alike there. If they are not, it takes a while but they all end up using the same words and clothing style... BUT, it is because their age, social level and social "thing"...

Not every girl is the same, just as we the guys we are all different. It can be, from time to time, true for the same social level and school, but as time goes by, the differentiation grows (see for example the group of girls at school, they will look alike as much as we the guys, just as any social sign or "group").

I do agree with part of what you say, I work on a media company and yes, we see a lot of this... but "we" the guys feed that. Because as many girls come to the office trying to sell an idea (that sucks) all the guys will celebrate their idiotic idea... so, thats feeding the circle.

BUT, not every girl is alike. I have known several AMAZINGLY beautiful girls with extremely distant characteristics, such as:

1. Some feel bad about their looks (really) as all people see is their looks.
2. Some other take advantage from this (on purpose)
3. Some become insecure... as the quality of guys that approaches them is very low...

I can go on... I get your point, every girl is different, but yes, there are patterns.

[iuniperus]

It's foolish to judge a person's personality simply by their physical appearance.
I'm a relatively young, fair skinned, female who could probably use to gain a few pounds. HOWEVER, none of these factor are in my immediate control. I didn't ask to be a "ytwf," my genetics and time I was born simply prepositioned me to be this way at this time.

I don't consider myself to be more attractive than other woman who aren't a ywtf. In fact, there are many non-ywtf woman who I feel that are more attractive than myself. Additionally I have never counted calories or obsessed about my physical appearance.

I wear nerdy plastic glasses. I read a lot of classic literature. I study psychology for fun. I find college courses a pure pleasure to attend rather than burden. I work at and have a passion for libraries.

I'm hardly one of those "ywtf" you described.

Good day.





iuniperus added to this post, 7 minutes and 0 seconds later...

ALSO, I was always mercilessly picked on (yes, PICKED ON) in school as a child because I was so thin. I got "You're so thin it makes me sick" more times than I could count. So was my mother. And currently so is my 16 y/o sister who is constantly subjected to vicious attacks from her jealous peers.

Grow-up and gain some perspective, dude.

[AliTree]

well all i have to say to this post is that there are some girls who fit this "ytwf" look but that doesn't mean that their weight and looks are what they obsess on 24 hours a day. it also doesn't mean that's how they pick their friends.

i will admit, i am very conscious about my weight. i want to be a healthy thin and since i don't really do a lot of physical activity, i have to work-out when i go home to keep the body i like. i have never done an extreme and will never. i don't want to be 5'9" and a size 0-1. my size 2-3's are just fine with me. i consider that healthy. i achieve it through physical work and eating healthy. i don't count anything, but i don't eat a crapload of bread and candy in one day.

i don't consider myself attractive; i think i'm cute. but i do constantly check on my makeup. this is not in any way because i am vain. this is because i am a perfectionist. i want to make sure i look as good as a i can 24-7. so make sure you don't confuse the two with some.

i understand your anger, though. i would agree that a lot of girls (not just thin or white) are this way. it's not healthy.

[CarolinetheENFP]

haha somebodys bitter
but yeah that is really prevalent in our culture
and quite annoying
thats why its so refreshing when one breaks the mold

[Malotis]

Hello all, I appreciate the attributing perspectives to the given post, just thought I'd further comment on a few of them.

Yes, there seems to be a lot of animosity in the OP.

I'm confused though. Only white females do this? No females of any other ethnicity diet or clique up and act bitchy and shallow? Are we to gather that the OP thinks all young white thin females act this way? :rolleyes:
Your confusion is understandable; I did not mean to imply that this sort of behavior was strictly limited to white females and white females only, because it isn't. However, whites do tend to be a bit wealthier, and what plays a larger role in culture difference than class?


However, to the OP I would say that once one is out of high school, one's exposure to such people greatly decreases.
See, it's these sort of comments that always sadden me. It makes me feel like I'm writing something so out of line from your conventional belief system that you're forced to draw erroneous conclusions that attack my personal objectivity/ credibility for the sake of being able to better maintain previously held beliefs.
Not that it's relevant, but I've been out of HS for many years and my exposure to "such people" has far from decreased.

I didn't see anything but blind hate in your post. No reasoning no nothing. What did they do to you?
I would have called it bitter contempt. Whether there's reason behind it or not I'm sure is subject to controversy. And quite frankly, they once gave me something very valuable (something I value much more than things I can get on my own like drugs or money) for many years... and then took it away.

I'm young, thin, white, and female and I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE HORRIBLE BITCHES YOU DESCRIBED IN YOUR POST *caps lock*.
Come on now, isn’t "horrible bitch" an unnecessarily derogatory label to describe a ytwf as? :rolleyes:

It's foolish to judge a person's personality simply by their physical appearance.
I agree that it is foolish to judge a person's personality solely by their physical appearance, but if you start to ignore physical appearance completely in your judgments you're going to miss certain factors that are connected to that physical appearance.
For an example, it is known that midgets kill themselves at a significantly higher rate than that of the average population. There is also much evidence that connects suicide to depression. Put two and two together, and walla. You can infer that one person is more likely to be depressed than another person... simply based on their physical appearance.

Good day

[Tocsin]

I've been out of HS for many years and my exposure to "such people" has far from decreased.

Which begs the question, if you dislike these type of people so much, why continue to be around them? Do circumstances of employment, or other circumstances, make it impossible to avoid associating with them? I don't associate with people I don't like because I don't want to, and even in professional situations it is not difficult to keep people at more than an arms length if I don't want to know them.

...they once gave me something very valuable (something I value much more than things I can get on my own like drugs or money) for many years... and then took it away.

So far, this is the most intriguing thing you have said. What is this thing that you value so much which they gave to you and then took away?

[Lucid]

Your confusion is understandable; I did not mean to imply that this sort of behavior was strictly limited to white females and white females only, because it isn't. However, whites do tend to be a bit wealthier, and what plays a larger role in culture difference than class?

Then why bring race into it? Why did you feel it was necessary to include the race of these girls in their description? Your anecdotal evidence aside, I've found this behavior to be typical of people of all kinds of races, religions and genders. The superficial trends may vary (what brand of shoes, what kind of necklaces), but the behavior is the same. The only thing class changes is the monetary cost of the material objects in question.


See, it's these sort of comments that always sadden me. It makes me feel like I'm writing something so out of line from your conventional belief system that you're forced to draw erroneous conclusions that attack my personal objectivity/ credibility for the sake of being able to better maintain previously held beliefs.
Not that it's relevant, but I've been out of HS for many years and my exposure to "such people" has far from decreased.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. The quote below is the reason I assumed you were in high school.

Thanks to the wonderful public school system...

[LionsPride]

You know, I thought the behaviour I witnessed (which bears some resemblance to what you speak of) in high school was odd. Odd in that requirements such as thin and dumb seemed unlikely to develop as a completely internal system. The description of which you speak where they meet and find "thinness" in common and all snowballs from there is really an over simplification. The really ridiculous things they discuss actually serve of a purpose of attracting men. While you don't see the obvious allure of a ditsy thin girl, I have witnessed men drool over these girls and honestly, the one who can act the dumbest and flakiest always wins the guy. I have literally seen somewhat intelligent girls out dumb each other for the benefit of getting the guy. I have also seen men pass chances to spend a conversation with a girl who *might* be their intellectual equal or better. The interest in gossip, makeup and other 'dramas' as you describe tend to make the men they date feel they have a place in the girls lives tending the 'important' stuff. It makes the men feel more manly and that they have a purpose. Something they tend to lack in relationships with secure, intelligent and independant women. Now this is all more prevalent in the teenage cultures in N.A. as they try and define what is male and female in an absence of strong real adult figures in their lives. As they mature, many leave this behind, but some don't mature beyond it and they find rewarding lives as career bad waitresses and retail sales women who talk on the phone rather than serve customers. A similar phenomenon is found with the 'jock' who never grows out of the phase and becomes nothing more than a has been.

[Tocsin]

A thoughtful analysis, LionsPride, but I'm wondering if the fundamental appeal of the "vacuous airhead" type of girl to the "walking penis" type of guy is that the "walking penis" thinks to himself that the "airhead" is going to be easier to get into bed than a woman that actually seems to possess a working brain?

[searcher]

I'm a ytwf and I am going to enjoy picking your post apart

If it's one thing you can count on about young ytwf, it's that they know a lot of other ytwf's.

No I don't.

They form ytwf cliques comprising of an endless mixture of drama, gossip, backstabbing, and pure all around cut throat bitchiness, with 99.9% of conversations typically ranging from calories, eating disorders, boy friends or gossip

Nope. None of that here.

all part of a hierarchy where the thinnest of the girls reign supreme.

um...no. if that was the case I would be so much more popular than I am at school.

the tiffany jewelry, ugh boots, designer label clothing, and the latest electronic gadgets.

no, no, no and no.

I think what lies at the core of these obnoxious cliques among young females is the desire to be thin. Who can a girl relate to more than someone who wants to be thin as she does? Once a connection is established they can all come out and finally speak openly about their stories of popping prescription meth labeled as diet pills, constantly throwing up after meals, various degrees of hunger pains, exercising like crazy, and doing whatever else it takes to keep that precious calorie count low.

uh....no. Heard of fast metabolism?

The only people I see who get hired at my work are the young thin white females. All the thin white females I know who work gets paid good money for what they do. And what do they do? They get paid to look good.

and for that I have two letters. B S

[LionsPride]

Often that's the case tocsin, dumbness gives the men a perceived better chance of scoring, so does drunkenness, but it doesn't explain why the men stay with the girls for periods of time beyond the first little while. And as one member already explained, scoring with a girl who's an idiot is not 'all that it could be'. I see the teenage relationship as a mock, exaggerated version of what they feel adulthood should be like. They are like a magnified image of the things that go on in adult relationships. The idea that the female is concerned with appearances of self, family and home and is the social networker of the pair. The man is the 'provider and protector' of the pair. I'm not saying this image is a correct one, just that teenagers pick up on these things that they see in media and in family and then exaggerate it to a degree that the whole thing seems ludicrous.

Now, when you start to look beyond high school, you don't see men wanting to pair bond with these girls. They really are looking for a short term liaison, but you will still find a majority of them, when faced with a group of girls of varying intelligence and similar attractiveness, that they tend to pick the one that is no more intelligent than they perceive themselves to be, often the one a step down in intelligence.

I by no means feel this applies to INTJ's as a whole. We are only 5% of the population and could easily be a large portion of the anomalies that do not fit within the social 'norm'.

[Antares]

Seriously, I think it's more personality than age or skin color. The stereotypical clique-obsessed YTYF (Young, Thin, Yellow Female) aren't much better. A lot of YTWF aren't like that, but the bitchy and loud ones get all the attention.

[Avid]

In regards to most of this thread.../facepalm.

Crap like this is what bothers me the most. I'm thin, currently young, technically white (I'm part italian and get brown as hell in summer), and female. I look a certain way and I dress fairly normal for my age range and I get clumped into the stupid, shallow, "cheerleader" group. I start talking and new people all have a whole "WTF" look on their face (sometimes good and sometimes bad but always funny). I can't help that I'm small and well built and apparently don't put on much weight and I LOOK like someone that would fit in the group you described. Most of middle school..yeah I hung around with other ywtf (and a black and a chinese) but I wasn't backstabbing and didn't play their drama games. I also didn't do anything drastic to get thinner. I was actually working to put on muscle. They were fake friends and a big waste of time.

They are a problem because they are a big smear stain on the image of women sort of like over zealous feminists.

The heirarchy btw isn't based soley on thin. It seems to have more to do with who is the brattiest and has the most money. The top girl at my school was somewhat chunky but dressed pretty with lots of money. She was sugar to your face and poison behind your back.

The white part doesn't matter so much as the attractiveness level. The attractive "bitch" group spans other races and sometimes they are all mixed around. The core of the group is to "appear" popular and awesome for no real reason other than image and to feel like they are special or above the "common" people. The men that get sucked into that don't hold any value or interest to me so they aren't an issue.

[zibber]

I haven't seen this point yet, which is a shame: there are conventions which have been in place long before this generation of "YTWFs" even came into existence. Don't mistake their actions for truly intentional, sincere actions, as they are mostly just living up to conventions. Attack the conventions, not so much the humans bound to them. If you are born in a certain environment with certain physical and mental attributes highly suitable to the reigning conventions of that environment, I imagine it would be insanely hard to spontaneously rise above those conventions.

(This is coming from an overzealous male feminist, by the way.)

i don't consider myself attractive ... i do constantly check on my makeup ... i want to make sure i look as good as a i can 24-7

Why is make-up such a vital factor in looking good? (Please don't say you're someone who "needs" make-up. *clinches hands in a praying manner*)

[Avid]

Yeah zib, I'm more of an overzealous equalist (to the extent of reason). The term feminist is feminist as it only serving to females. The world is composed of 2 genders and we should seek to balance not overpower.

I saw the supposed "way I'm supposed to act" and said f that and do my own thing. Women (people) should be able to look at the rules set before them and pick out what they choose to adopt or reject and I have no sympathy for those who misplace value in such things. The conventions are only in place because too many people just let it go and don't question or reason it out so it passively fades away. A lot of women either here or in my life that I've talked to directly regret trying to live up to some gender role imposed on them by either their parents or I suppose society. Shame they couldn't break loose of it sooner.

[zibber]

Yeah zib, I'm more of an overzealous equalist (to the extent of reason). The term feminist is feminist as it only serving to females. The world is composed of 2 genders and we should seek to balance not overpower.

I'd describe myself as a gender abolitionist, ie a strict equalist, but "feminist" is just a.. conveniently conventional term. Ugh, I know what you mean. I take feminism to mean the striving for emancipation for any underpriviliged group and I think it is generally understood as such, but I agree that the term is VERY far from optimal.

I saw the supposed "way I'm supposed to act" and said f that and do my own thing. Women (people) should be able to look at the rules set before them and pick out what they choose to adopt or reject and I have no sympathy for those who misplace value in such things. The conventions are only in place because too many people just let it go and don't question or reason it out so it passively fades away. A lot of women either here or in my life that I've talked to directly regret trying to live up to some gender role imposed on them by either their parents or I suppose society. Shame they couldn't break loose of it sooner.

Well, conventions are inherent to the human species and many animals in general. They're so stubborn, though, and I think some of the more arbitrary conventions stand in the way of actual freedom (of thought as well as action). Enough is enough; I wish there would come a point when we can truly move on to a sort of postconventional, eclectic mode. We're already a long way there, so why not? It must be noted that even the most nonconventional person still unwittingly follows a bunch of conventions/norms (down to basic stuff like being bothered by stray locks of hair, other superficialities and an indubitable plethora of silly ones I can't think of because I completely take them for granted), but they are not so urgent at this moment. I think nowadays, there are enough relatively nonconventional people to raise general awareness of the more absurd conventions somewhat (I'd easily list make-up and leg/pit shaving here, both of which I know are still practiced by the majority of women), hence my own constant repetition of a couple of statements and questions.

Again: don't criticise the hardware, criticise the software..

[Avid]

Yeah, I totally get ya zib. Some of those "conventions" though I like to think of as personal choice. For example, if I really didn't want to shave my body I plain wouldn't do it..but I guess some of the cultural norms soaked in and don't really bother me too much. The mind control junk and social twisting is a bigger issue to me. People feeling like they have to fit some mold and can't be themselves. I say so long as you aren't hurting someone just go ahead and be yourself.:)

[ScurvyRose]

Just jumping back in...

Make-up - The condition of my face is what affects my need for make up. Having struggled with acne for pretty much my entire life make up was the one camoflauge I counted on.

Appearance, or actually your view of your own appearance has a tremendous effect on the confidence you have in yourself and how you believe you are being perceived by other people.

We do not learn until later in life that when certain school mates are degrading to others that it really stems from their own insecurities, and not due to an actual fault in yourself. That is a tough lesson.

I have always fit the Young, Thin, White, and Female catagory. I am hoping the first two stay around a bit longer!!

I do not diet, I hate going to the gym, I could care less how thin my friends are and those factors have no play in my choices of friends, never have.

The leader of the pack for the bitchy girls (any race, any size, any age, any gender) tends to be the one with the most toys, money, or status. Where do you think Bridezilla came from! My sweet 16! These shows put a spotlight on this type of behavior and place value on being demanding and cruel just because people let you.

Yes, I said let you. The only reason people ever get away with this behavior is other people buying into it. Seriously. Groupies in this case are like their own personal media circus.

If you give the person and their actions meaning, you are furthering the drama. You tell them like it is, and you just leveled the field.

It is always up to you how you deal with any issue.

[zibber]

Some of those "conventions" though I like to think of as personal choice. For example, if I really didn't want to shave my body I plain wouldn't do it..but I guess some of the cultural norms soaked in and don't really bother me too much.

Yeah, that's always seemed both intuitive and problematic to me.. That's kind of like the "meh" position, in regard to certain seemingly inoffensive conventions (although leg/pit shaving is another one of those peskily fictional/exaggerated distinctions between men and women) and I'm certainly not immune to it either. It's the dilemma of being fully human/animal/physical, yet very philosophical. The less philosophical are even more indifferent to conventions, and all the more convinced that they want to do certain conventional things (and would do so whether that convention existed or not!).

Appearance, or actually your view of your own appearance has a tremendous effect on the confidence you have in yourself and how you believe you are being perceived by other people.

While there is certainly generally an empirically demonstrable connection between appearance and public image, lamentably, actual appearance or personal perception thereof doesn't have to have anything to do with "self-confidence".

[ScurvyRose]

.....

While there is certainly generally an empirically demonstrable connection between appearance and public image, lamentably, actual appearance or personal perception thereof doesn't have to have anything to do with "self-confidence".

I disagree. Self perception is THE main factor in self confidence. If you see yourself as a failure, are you saying that same person can still have self confidence?

How you see yourself, your abilities, your appearance, your ability to contribute to society has everything to do with how confident you are. There are thousands of self help books, websites and counselors who work on these issues.

Here is a quote from just one of them...

Self-confidence is considered one of the most influential motivators and regulators of behavior in people's everyday lives (Bandura, 1986). A growing body of evidence suggests that one's perception of ability or self-confidence is the central mediating construct of achievement strivings (e.g., Bandura, 1977; Ericsson et al., 1993; Harter, 1978; Kuhl, 1992; Nicholls, 1984). Ericsson and his colleagues have taken the position that the major influence in the acquisition of expert performance is the confidence and motivation to persist in deliberate practice for a minimum of 10 years.

Self-confidence is not a motivational perspective by itself. It is a judgment about capabilities for accomplishment of some goal, and, therefore, must be considered within a broader conceptualization of motivation that provides the goal context. Kanfer (1990a) provides an example of one cognitively based framework of motivation for such a discussion. She suggests that motivation is composed of two components: goal choice and self-regulation. Self-regulation, in turn, consists of three related sets of activities: self-monitoring, self-evaluation, and self-reactions. Self-monitoring provides information about current performance, which is then evaluated by comparing that performance with one's goal. The comparison between performance and goal results in two distinct types of self-reactions: self-satisfaction or -dissatisfaction and self-confidence expectations. Satisfaction or dissatisfaction is an affective response to past actions; self-confidence expectations are judgments about one's future capabilities to attain one's goal. This framework allows a discussion of self-confidence as it relates to a number of motivational processes, including setting goals and causal attributions.


edit: the quote is from this book: Learning, Remembering, Believing: Enhancing Human Performance (1994)
Commission on Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education (CBASSE)

[Skatt]

I'm pretty sure that despite being composed of four specific adjectives, ytwf was specifically meant to describe the behavior pattern of the 'popular girls'. I can honestly say that I know for a fact that there are a lot of females that never grow out of this. I think it's fair to judge these girls based on appearance if you want because they don't really fit the pattern unless they judge everyone using strict appearance standards. There are also males that have a similar pattern that is never grown out of. Many do out grow it for sure, but not everyone. I can't really call it wrong though because it works. I wouldn't want to be a part of it though.

[Reganon]

Technically I fit into the YTWF category, although you can all imagine as an INTJ my behavior couldn't less resemble the stereotype.

I do happen to know a lot of YTWFs at my school who do act like that, but in my personal experience, these girls aren't always very thin or attractive. The only requirement is low self esteem and less than functional mental faculties.

I personally pity these people for living such a shallow and purposeles life. It is best not to let them bother you. That's giving them too much credit.

[CarolinetheENFP]

baisically theyre all ESs
ive come to use that as an insult by the way
ill be muttering to my mr. INTJ
there goes another S .. i swear we have an infestation..
lol

[PeterIMC]

Thanks to the wonderful public school system, I consider it a privilege to have become reasonably acquainted with many thin white females, several of which are often deemed very attractive as voiced by those obnoxious, insecure males whose need to express how straight they are is so dire that they talk endless bull shit about which girls are hot and which are not and how many girls their currently fucking or have fucked, but that’s not the point.

If it's one thing you can count on about young ytwf, it's that they know a lot of other ytwf's. They form ytwf cliques comprising of an endless mixture of drama, gossip, backstabbing, and pure all around cut throat bitchiness, with 99.9% of conversations typically ranging from calories, eating disorders, boy friends or gossip, all part of a hierarchy where the thinnest of the girls reign supreme. What happens with these cliques from here I would speculate would depend directly on wealth, what with the tiffany jewelry, ugh boots, designer label clothing, and the latest electronic gadgets.

I think what lies at the core of these obnoxious cliques among young females is the desire to be thin. Who can a girl relate to more than someone who wants to be thin as she does? Once a connection is established they can all come out and finally speak openly about their stories of popping prescription meth labeled as diet pills, constantly throwing up after meals, various degrees of hunger pains, exercising like crazy, and doing whatever else it takes to keep that precious calorie count low. Which I guess isn’t all that much of a problem really? I mean when you think about it. The only people I see who get hired at my work are the young thin white females. All the thin white females I know who work gets paid good money for what they do. And what do they do? They get paid to look good. Someone wants to buy something, and when they make that purchase they prefer to do it from something that looks pleasant. If the number is large enough, then who can rationally really say that these girls have a problem?

You need to get out more.. lol. I don't mean to bars or places like that where you socialize, but in life in general. I have the luxury of having to visit clients in various different markets, (in relation to what you´re saying it's a luxury, though I'm trying to not having to get out often.) and it just depends on the market, or when it's a big company, which department, what kind of people are hired.

There are markets / departments where presentation is very important, that's where you find most people that focus on looks. Other markets / departments don't have this specific need, but at the same time I can't say that in these places all women are old, fat and black. It really doesn't make much difference. The distribution is the same. However, presentation is different.

Maybe an Extroverted manager or boss will hire the women you described, in order to improve his or her self image, which makes me wonder if you´re really an INTJ. That you know so many of these types of women is not the fault of the public school system. You do that your self and since you consider it a privilege, I'm guessing it's important to you. That raises the question on how introverted you really are. Probably not so much and maybe you´re even an E in stead of an I.

[zibber]

I disagree. Self perception is THE main factor in self confidence. If you see yourself as a failure, are you saying that same person can still have self confidence?

How you see yourself, your abilities, your appearance, your ability to contribute to society has everything to do with how confident you are. There are thousands of self help books, websites and counselors who work on these issues.

Here is a quote from just one of them.

Scurvy.. self-help books want to get sold. "Life coaches" want to get paid. The medieval guy selling potions on a wooden podium wants to sell potions.

With that out of the way, I didn't say that.

actual appearance or personal perception thereof doesn't have to have anything to do with "self-confidence"

Actual appearance, the way you actually appear physically, or personal perception thereof, your mental image of your actual physical appearance, has no logical link with your perception of your ABILITIES.

Sure, that has something to do with self-confidence. I prefer the term self-knowledge, though, but I think that to elaborate on that would be to depart from this thread's true topic.

[graciela224]

INTJs are more concerned with ideas than with the physical and concrete. So we tend not to obsess over things like how much we weigh. In the big scheme of things, being thin really doesn't matter. And INTJs generally don't give a crap about things that don't matter - or people who care about things that don't matter.

[Mozzes]

INTJs are more concerned with ideas than with the physical and concrete. So we tend not to obsess over things like how much we weigh. In the big scheme of things, being thin really doesn't matter. And INTJs generally don't give a crap about things that don't matter - or people who care about things that don't matter.

We're all going to be dust eventually. The universe is just one giant clockwork machine slowly winding down. In light of that it seems as if you define things that don't matter as things that don't interest you and people who don't matter as people who don't value what you value. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that though I do think many INTJs would do well to ditch their titanic sense of self-importance.

[Reckoner]

I know the kind of girls the OP is talking about, but I don't think you should generalise every ytwf into this category.

I met some of these girls in my hostel during my first year at Uni, lets just say no matter how much they obsessed over their weight the notorious hostel food caught up with them. We call it the 'Fresher Five'.

[graciela224]

We're all going to be dust eventually. The universe is just one giant clockwork machine slowly winding down. In light of that it seems as if you define things that don't matter as things that don't interest you and people who don't matter as people who don't value what you value. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that though I do think many INTJs would do well to ditch their titanic sense of self-importance.

I just think that INTJs are good reality-checkers. I don't believe that people with different values than my own are unimportant, although I apologize that I didn't make that clear in my last response. We're not really concerned about ourselves. We're actually more extroverted in our thinking. We believe that what is true to us is universal, whether or not it really is (your dust theory, for example.) I don't believe I am better than anyone else. In fact, that is what I dislike so much about the stereotypical 'ytwf' - obsession with the self is where the true titanic sense of self-importance lies.

[lancelot]

If you have nothing upstairs, you have to make the most of what's downstairs.

LOL!





lancelot added to this post, 2 minutes and 20 seconds later...

If you have nothing upstairs, you have to make the most of what's downstairs.

Love is where you find it, yet the reasons for love are complex, especially to someone who is intelligent.

Would you be happy with a woman with a 78 IQ? If so what would you talk about?

[alphawolf]

Contrary to what Freddy Mercury said, YTWFs make the rockin' world go round.

[Solaris]

You need to get out more.. lol. I don't mean to bars or places like that where you socialize, but in life in general. I have the luxury of having to visit clients in various different markets, (in relation to what you´re saying it's a luxury, though I'm trying to not having to get out often.) and it just depends on the market, or when it's a big company, which department, what kind of people are hired.

There are markets / departments where presentation is very important, that's where you find most people that focus on looks. Other markets / departments don't have this specific need, but at the same time I can't say that in these places all women are old, fat and black. It really doesn't make much difference. The distribution is the same. However, presentation is different.

Maybe an Extroverted manager or boss will hire the women you described, in order to improve his or her self image, which makes me wonder if you´re really an INTJ. That you know so many of these types of women is not the fault of the public school system. You do that your self and since you consider it a privilege, I'm guessing it's important to you. That raises the question on how introverted you really are. Probably not so much and maybe you´re even an E in stead of an I.

Seriously? There was nothing in his post that even warrants the "you aren't a real INTJ" card. Just because somebody posts something you disagree with, does not make said person less of an INTJ, or not an INTJ at all. I am very tired of this particular piece of mud being thrown around this forum.

My guess is that he used to get on better with this set, and something happened that ended that. Maybe he broke up with one? Who knows. Because, guess what? Even INTJs date and have relationships.

I do think that most of the OP was motivated by bitterness. I think much of it was overgeneralized. (I am a young, white female (I guess you could say I'm thin...I would say athletic as I consider thin to be a state with a less muscular appearance). I am not this way. Yes, I have known some that are.) Anyway, back to overgeneralizing -- I also think that you are doing the same thing by bringing in the idea that his post is not stereotypical INTJ behavior. We all use all the preferences, or we'd be severely mentally unbalanced, we just use some more often than others.

[Firebrand]

This is just what the culture advocates these days. Current clothing styles also help dictate this and the trends between the culture and fashion industry feed off each other. The stupidity, generally low moral character, and emotional drama are more due to social conditioning and lack of education on the value of spending time and effort on things other than what is trendy and "tre-hip".

I recently met this woman who is model-beautiful (and I mean this quite literally) but I was beyond pleasantly surprised to find she was also intelligent, funny, cool, and enjoyable to hang out with. She could even handle my typical INTJ eccentricities without a hitch so these women are out there who throw the stereotypes for a loop.





Firebrand9 added to this post, 40 minutes and 48 seconds later...


Maybe an Extroverted manager or boss will hire the women you described, in order to improve his or her self image, which makes me wonder if you´re really an INTJ. That you know so many of these types of women is not the fault of the public school system. You do that your self and since you consider it a privilege, I'm guessing it's important to you. That raises the question on how introverted you really are. Probably not so much and maybe you´re even an E in stead of an I.

He didn't say he was the manager or that he hired them. And of course it's not the fault of the public school system. I think he meant that because of being at the school system where you would see much of the range of the current culture, he sees many of these types of women. And I also think it's typical of an INTJ to resent the socially-conditioned automoton of the culture and women like the ones he describe are a current trend.





Firebrand9 added to this post, 5 minutes and 54 seconds later...


actual appearance or personal perception thereof doesn't have to have anything to do with "self-confidence"

Actual appearance, the way you actually appear physically, or personal perception thereof, your mental image of your actual physical appearance, has no logical link with your perception of your ABILITIES

I've got to disagree with you also. I am a body-builder and this, most especially when I first started 16 years ago, did wonders for my self-confidence. My muscle is not for show. I can and do use it and, for better of for worse, I am a personal trainer and certified furniture-mover for many of my friends. So my mental ability of what I can do with it has everything to do with my ability to use it, especially when I was bench-pressing twice my body weight which only a small percentage of all people can do. You should read the "Training Your Mind" chapter of "The Arnold Schwarzenegger Encyclopedia of Modern Body-Building".

[Deliberator]

Although I would have to disagree with the strict classification of YTWF as the type of person he described, I am too familiar with this type of girl so I'm not going to take it personally.

That said, I FEEL YOUR PAIN. I am surrounded by them every day as well, at school. I act really nerdy and aloof to make sure they don't think I'm one of them. As a result, I am happily a loner at my school (and in general).

The thing I hate most about looking the way I do is that other girls view me as competition. They'll resent me and get jealous of me. Idiots. Or they'll swoon over the fact that I'm married. I don't get it.

Ooh, what really pisses them off is when I say that I never wear makeup and I eat lots of fatty foods, don't exercise, and that I actually have trouble keeping my weight up. heheh.

I'm sure I'll come in contact with them in the business world who will use their looks to get ahead. I couldn't care less, I've got brains too.
Wa-TAH! *judo chop*

[DRG]

There is a phrase I use, cookie cutter blond, for women who are or are trying to be the blond YTWF stereotype. It is the lack of uniqueness about them and bright blond hair with black eyebrows that annoy me the most.

I make a point of complementing anyone that dares to be different and risk showing a flaw. Examples: not having a designer purse or wearing "cheap" jewelry that actually looks nice. In a town like Washington, DC (where I am) social positioning is unfortunately important.

[INTJoe]

Awesome OP, Captain Obvious!

People are attracted to young thin girls!? Holy crap! I've seen the light.

What's wrong with a girl being thin? Like 90% of the American population is overweight, and it's gross. And why are you racist towards White people? What's that about?

[Saint]

Malotis,

Whats even worse than Young Thin White Females are Asinine Bitter Generalizers. (ABG's)

I'm a little appalled at your statements. I understand there's a demographic that fits your precise description, but it's a rather small circle on the venn diagram of YTWFs.


What you've done here, and why it's so terrible isn't hard to see. You've taken four physically descriptive traits and then equated them to character traits.

Whats even worse, 3 of the 4 traits no one has any choice about. Nobody asked to be young, white, or female. Those happen automatically. Thin some people are by nature, others by very hard work (and some by pills, granted).

This ever-so-slightly makes *you* an asshole for trying to pin character flaws on this physical group. What gives?

[Vagrant]

I'm not even sure if the original poster even understands what an INTJ is. We don't behave like the so called "YWTF." Even those among us who ARE ywtf don't behave like the stereotype.

Now, I personally loathe the "popular" stereotypical people, but generalizing them is not something that should be done.

Not to mention, there are plenty of other cliques that are just as shallow as the OP described, but aren't young, white, thin, or female.