Banning religion being taught to children

[mikey]

What are your thoughts? The idea of making it illegal to indoctrinate children with religious belief? That's not to say making religion illegal but treating it as we do certain other substances that are abused and harmful to humans.

Example: You must be 18 to purchase the bible, torah, qur'an etc.,

[OneBadMother]

Well... that's kind of absurd. <_< It rings a bit too much of "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" to me, with the thought crimes and all.

Kids can be doctrinated with religious belief, but they're really perfectly able to reject or accept it on their own terms once they're old enough. Introducing it as what you believe as a parent and as a possibility is fine. Touting it as absolute truth to the exclusion of all other possibilities, not so much. But as they say, it's not the gun that kills so much as the human behind it.

[Guido]

Why stop there? We could create organizations that could actually rip religion out of history! Imagine an organization that specialized in removing people from photos and documents that was backed by the government. That way, no one would ever have to be exposed to it. We could also construct camps to raise children to think the way we think they're supposed to. This would ensure that our youth stay pure in thought.

Nothing ever went wrong with the Ministry of Truth or Hitler Youth camps....

[Guido]

Guess I wasn't the only one who saw dystopia :thumbsdown:

[anul]

I agree but only because I don't think children should read. It's corrosive to their minds and paper cuts threaten their precious fragile fingers at every page. Parents need to stop forcing their children to read, and start forcing their children to get a job.

[Tarrick]

Absolutely! And we shouldn't allow parents to impart any form of morals, work ethic and sense of belonging to anything more then an individualistic state.

[Jon]

Guess I wasn't the only one who saw dystopia *:thumbsdown:

Yeah, but Dystopias give rise to lots of cool INTJ protagonists. Maybe we'd get a chance to rebuild the world in our image after the eventual revolt. We could at least go out into the world and discover glass and books and go live in an abandoned house.

[deicruxified]

What are your thoughts? The idea of making it illegal to indoctrinate children with religious belief? That's not to say making religion illegal but treating it as we do certain other substances that are abused and harmful to humans.

Example: You must be 18 to purchase the bible, torah, qur'an etc.,
i used to think that way but then again scraping off religion is another kind of indoctrination coz you deprive kids of an imagination of a god or spiritual things. i guess it would be best to give the kids an option like just reading comic books on religion for fun time. then it's up to him/her to decide if he/she wants to read the real scriptures . kids need imagination and some stories would help them (just don't let them watch disney...) since they learn best that way.

[rwyatt365]

Attempting to legislate behavior, morality, or religion is doomed to failure. Every attempt to do so has ultimately resulted in the creation of a culture of law-breakers, or the dissolution of those laws. Better to encourage people to teach their children to really think about the choices they make (moral, ethical, social) than to try to erase religious practice.

For me, telling me that I CAN'T do something will ensure that I WILL attempt to do it! ;)

[lollercancer]

What are your thoughts? The idea of making it illegal to indoctrinate children with religious belief? That's not to say making religion illegal but treating it as we do certain other substances that are abused and harmful to humans.

Example: You must be 18 to purchase the bible, torah, qur'an etc.,


i like this idea a lot, religion is a terrible sort of viral meme. we infect all of our children with anti-rationality from the start and then expect rational leaders to magically rise up to save us from our own stupidity.

I have such an antipathy for religion. It fills the soul with guilt, guilt, guilt. It is a method of control and of conservativism. It gives us all excuses as to why we should avoid doing good on earth.

Whenever I see someone talk about religion, all I hear is: "Gee Whiz, I can't wait to get killed. It's gonna be great, dying. Oh boy, oh boy."

[lollercancer]

Attempting to legislate behavior, morality, or religion is doomed to failure. Every attempt to do so has ultimately resulted in the creation of a culture of law-breakers, or the dissolution of those laws. Better to encourage people to teach their children to really think about the choices they make (moral, ethical, social) *than to try to erase religious practice.

For me, telling me that I CAN'T do something will ensure that I WILL attempt to do it! ;)


You think children are smart enough to outmaneuver parents who want to indoctrinate them?

"Hey kid, smoke this... cmon... smoke it, you'll like it..."

[Guido]

religion is a terrible sort of viral meme.

I'd choose your words a little more carefully than that. There are some on these forums that are religious, and some highly so. I highly doubt you have an understanding of the good that can come of religion. It's not something terribly evident until you become part of it. Would the world be better without religion? I don’t think so, but I could see points on how someone could argue otherwise. But to go as far as saying 'religion is a plague' has no logical backing as there is a lot of good that comes of it.

I don't think you can equate free thought and beliefs with chemical addictions. People have the choice to believe whatever they want to believe.

[wise]

religion is a terrible sort of viral meme.

I'd choose your words a little more carefully than that. There are some on these forums that are religious, and some highly so. I highly doubt you have an understanding of the good that can come of religion. It's not something terribly evident until you become part of it. Would the world be better without religion? I don’t think so, but I could see points on how someone could argue otherwise. But to go as far as saying 'religion is a plague' has no logical backing as there is a lot of good that comes of it.

I don't think you can equate free thought and beliefs with chemical addictions. People have the choice to believe whatever they want to believe.

While thinking about this thread, I read Guido's post. It reflects my thoughts better than I could have expressed.

[lollercancer]

religion is a terrible sort of viral meme.

I'd choose your words a little more carefully than that. There are some on these forums that are religious, and some highly so. I highly doubt you have an understanding of the good that can come of religion. It's not something terribly evident until you become part of it. Would the world be better without religion? I don[ch8217]t think so, but I could see points on how someone could argue otherwise. But to go as far as saying 'religion is a plague' has no logical backing as there is a lot of good that comes of it.

I don't think you can equate free thought and beliefs with chemical addictions. People have the choice to believe whatever they want to believe.

While thinking about this thread, I read Guido's post. It reflects my thoughts better than I could have expressed.


i use to be more religious than 99% of most people, i was recommended multiple times to become a preist when in catholic school.
I have a full understanding of theology and of religion and what it does. *i made the choice to become an athiest for a very good reason.

I understand, fully, the good that can come of religion.

You know, my major problem with these forums is the fact that people can just say what they please without logical backing. we're all guilty of doing it, but it's the reason why i usually never actually speak in a forum. *You can NOT accuse me of not having logical backing without first having my reasoning at hand.

the biggest problem with religion is that it's members are given the status to be able to tell athiests that "they have to PROVE" that there is no god. *Prove to me that there IS a god or combat me with your own "logic."


Edit:
By the way, a viral meme is something that replicates itself apart of and at the expense of it's host. If you want to dare and get into this debate with me, you can.

[lollercancer]

religion is a terrible sort of viral meme.

I'd choose your words a little more carefully than that. There are some on these forums that are religious, and some highly so. I highly doubt you have an understanding of the good that can come of religion. It's not something terribly evident until you become part of it. Would the world be better without religion? I don[ch8217]t think so, but I could see points on how someone could argue otherwise. But to go as far as saying 'religion is a plague' has no logical backing as there is a lot of good that comes of it.

I don't think you can equate free thought and beliefs with chemical addictions. People have the choice to believe whatever they want to believe.

While thinking about this thread, I read Guido's post. It reflects my thoughts better than I could have expressed.


i use to be more religious than 99% of most people, i was recommended multiple times to become a preist when in catholic school.
I have a full understanding of theology and of religion and what it does. *i made the choice to become an athiest for a very good reason.

I understand, fully, the good that can come of religion.

You know, my major problem with these forums is the fact that people can just say what they please without logical backing. we're all guilty of doing it, but it's the reason why i usually never actually speak in a forum. *You can NOT accuse me of not having logical backing without first having my reasoning at hand.

the biggest problem with religion is that it's members are given the status to be able to tell athiests that "they have to PROVE" that there is no god. *Prove to me that there IS a god or combat me with your own "logic."


Edit:
By the way, a viral meme is something that replicates itself apart of and at the expense of it's host. *If you want to dare and get into this debate with me, you can.

You know what? don't bother getting into the debate.

Give me a definition of Martyrdom and have your answer right away.

[Rei]

haven't read what everyone else has said yet. But my opinion on the development of children has always been one of loose control, strict observance and correction if absolutely necessary. Let the child learn on their own, and just nudge them toward the right direction every once in a while.

So essentially, I do think that people shouldn't be born into religion. They grow up so immersed in this single ideal that they don't see others very well. They should build their own values and ideas (perhaps from family, as well as friends' influence), and then choose a belief if they so desire.

I know several friends who are doing that. I also know friends who have a family full of people of different beliefs. On the other hand, I know many Christians born into their belief who don't really know what it's all about, or don't really believe it. They merely go with it to keep their parents' mouths shut. Honestly, what's the meaning in that?


However, I do think banning it all together is a bit over the edge...

[Jack]

What are your thoughts? The idea of making it illegal to indoctrinate children with religious belief? That's not to say making religion illegal but treating it as we do certain other substances that are abused and harmful to humans.

Example: You must be 18 to purchase the bible, torah, qur'an etc.,

Hmm,..I was going to say something, but as I started to type I got easy distracted by an outside influence, and lost all interest in the initial ideology of the original question. That must account for something! ;)

[Tarrick]

I personally blame the way that kids are taught today. They're taught to sit down, shut up, and listen to teacher. Teacher teaches fact and that fact is unquestionable. Kids are not taught question, to research, the debate. If you teach a kid something, they should have enough wherewithal to at least think about what their being taught before accepting it.

[deicruxified]

I personally blame the way that kids are taught today. They're taught to sit down, shut up, and listen to teacher. Teacher teaches fact and that fact is unquestionable. Kids are not taught question, to research, the debate. If you teach a kid something, they should have enough wherewithal to at least think about what their being taught before accepting it.
exactly... i do think there's nothing wrong with religion per se only people teaching them coz they're just plain scriptures being interpreted by people. you can't blame iraqis for bombing themselves for the sake of salvation because they were taught so and tribes for initiating head hunting expeditions blah blah...

:edit: just like chronicles being interpreted by a lot of historians and label them as history. i do think it's tantamount with what religion is now

as of now (call me whatever), i am helping y cuz raise his kid. however we're not that hardcore practicing religion people so i was experimenting with little bry. we had him read comic books about jesus and the bible. a few months later he wants the bible (smart kid hope he growns an intk) now he's like, "jesus is the only saviour"... so now i am scouting for any bagavhad gita or buddhism comics but then was figuring out to retell some sufi tales and draw some illustrations for him. i think that'd be kewl... on the other side of the coin, we're worried he'd get confused.

[Guido]

You know, my major problem with these forums is the fact that people can just say what they please without logical backing. we're all guilty of doing it, but it's the reason why i usually never actually speak in a forum. *You can NOT accuse me of not having logical backing without first having my reasoning at hand.

After saying something like that and then daring me to a debate on this, you're going to get my reasoning.

the biggest problem with religion is that it's members are given the status to be able to tell atheists that "they have to PROVE" that there is no god. *Prove to me that there IS a god or combat me with your own "logic."

There are arguments for both sides, neither of which can be proven. This also doesn't really pertain to our arguments as we're arguing whether religion is a good thing rather than it being correct.


Edit:
By the way, a viral meme is something that replicates itself apart of and at the expense of it's host. *If you want to dare and get into this debate with me, you can.

I'd never actually heard of a meme before you posted, but this is actually a term Dawkins invented which I googled before originally replying. I can manage to figure out things like this on my own… :/

Ok, so the first thing in question is you comparing religious beliefs to a virus (or quoting Dawkins.) I stand by what I said, and I think what you said is a dick thing to say knowing that there are religious forum members. Although I believe in God and yet I haven't attended church in years, I took offense to this as you are pretty much stating that I have 'viral' beliefs. I can only imagine how some of the other members here took it. As for the statement itself, I also stand by what I said in saying there's no logical backing to it. Using that same logic, I could claim your atheist thoughts are viral since you are in fact ‘spreading the word’ by quoting Dawkins. Yes, some religions do work like this, but the vast majority do not. These ones spread their beliefs in a non-negative way. Yes, there are some people that spread their beliefs negatively. To condemn an entire belief system because of a few outliers is ridiculous as there is so much good that comes from religion which was my point to begin with.

Now to the topic at hand; how can you say, for sure, that the goods don't outweigh the bads with religion? Here's something a 30 second google search came up with. I googled 'statistics families religion' and on the second page (first page was also stats can, but didn't have statistics) I got this:

Canadians who attend religious services every week report having happier, less stressful lives and happier relationships with their partners than those who do not attend services at all. Weekly attenders of religious services also placed greater importance on marriage and family than those who did not attend. While religion may be a source of conflict in some relationships, it seems that regular attendance at religious services is related to happier marriages. The odds of having a very happy marital relationship were 1.5 times greater for people who attended religious services weekly than for those who did not attend at all (after accounting for differences in age, education, income, religion, province, employment status and the decade when the marriage began).

from -> To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If a 30 second google search can come up with this, who knows how much it out there. Out of the billions of lives that have already existed and been positively affected by religion and the billions more that will, how can you say religion should cease to exist? This would remove all the good that could touch those billions of lives. The entire purpose of every religion I can think of is to better the lives of those who practice it. How can you say it's wrong for people to hold this belief when this belief improves their lives? Just because you have outliers that do evil things 'in the name of religion' is no reason to condemn it. Should we ban guns because people use them to kill? What would the police use to uphold the law? Should we ban the existence of companies because some of those companies do evil things? What would happen to our society? These ‘solutions’ would solve nothing and would most likely cause more problems. People who act on religion negatively would still be acting negatively if you took their religion away, they would just find another outlet. So even if you banned religion, people would still find reasons to fight. South park had a quaint episode on this: 3 atheist factions trying to destroy each other 'in the name of science.' This is a good example that people have no problem being retarded without religion. Blaming the problems in the world on a belief system where that belief system’s purpose is to improve people’s lives is silly. These problems exist because of the people that are behind them, not because of the beliefs they claim to follow.

Until you can prove that all the wrongs that occur in the world that are actually religion based (not wrongs that are done by people doing it 'in the name of religion'), obviously outweigh the goods of religion, you have no grounds to restrict peoples thoughts and learning. Proving such a thing is impossible, since there is no way to quantify how people are net affected by religion. Implementing such a system that limits what people are allowed to learn, is crazy talk; hence the entire forum making fun of such an idea.

I'm sorry, but I'm probably not posting anymore on this topic as it's pretty pointless. Although writing this was fun :D

[Tarrick]

exactly... i do think there's nothing wrong with religion per se only people teaching them coz they're just plain scriptures being interpreted by people. you can't blame iraqis for bombing themselves for the sake of salvation because they were taught so and tribes for initiating head hunting expeditions blah blah...

:edit: just like chronicles being interpreted by a lot of historians and label them as history. i do think it's tantamount with what religion is now

as of now (call me whatever), i am helping y cuz raise his kid. however we're not that hardcore practicing religion people so i was experimenting with little bry. we had him read comic books about jesus and the bible. a few months later he wants the bible (smart kid hope he growns an intk) now he's like, "jesus is the only saviour"... so now i am scouting for any bagavhad gita or buddhism comics but then was figuring out to retell some sufi tales and draw some illustrations for him. i think that'd be kewl... on the other side of the coin, we're worried he'd get confused.

I'm not just talking about religion. I'm also talking about pretty much everything in life. Kids are not taught in school reason. They are taught to accept everything that's poured down their ears and never question anything except anything that doesn't match up with what they "know".

[lollercancer]

-_-

"you offend people by what you say, don't say it"
fallacy

"you're a dick"
fallacy

"talk of logic without ever making logical statements"
-_-

"Spreading the word of Dawkins"
dude has a theory of biology (memetics) that can be applied to religion, I'm borrowing it because it works and because he has books with tons of LOGICAL evidence backing him. *I can give up the theory if i felt like it, it doesn't define my worldview and it doesn't replicate at the expense of me.
bammo whammo

"mad good in religion, we're not all like that"
all 3 of the major religions are death-centric and therefore wreck the worldviews of their believers. *you live to die. *YOU LIVE TO DIE. *you cannot even attempt to hit me back on that, but you can try.

-----
"30 second search on google, look religion is good"
O_O *If religion was never there to raise your hopes and expectations, nonreligious people wouldn't feel the emptiness of "losing santa." *We'd lose out on a ton of atrocities, too. *Civilization works without religion, just fine. *look at those swedish countries.

"Out of the billions of lives that have already existed and been positively affected by religion and the billions more that will, how can you say religion should cease to exist? This would remove all the good that could touch those billions of lives."
OMG, THE CAUSALITY! *RELIGION = HAPPINESS, because you say so... without evidence!

fallacy of anechdotal facts

"These problems exist because of the people that are behind them, not because of the beliefs they claim to follow."
wow, nice view on humanity. *death centric?

"Until you can prove that all the wrongs that occur in the world that are actually religion based"
I was just saying that it hurts developing minds. *Rationality>Confusion and a forced morality

I'm the one who's done. *No logical argument = no response from me!

[Rei]

I personally blame the way that kids are taught today. They're taught to sit down, shut up, and listen to teacher. Teacher teaches fact and that fact is unquestionable. Kids are not taught question, to research, the debate. If you teach a kid something, they should have enough wherewithal to at least think about what their being taught before accepting it.

Kids these days are just not motivated to get off their asses and learn their own stuff.
When I was little.. And even now, I research on much more than the stuff I am taught, and on more topics than the stuff I am taught.

Though it could just be us INTJs. We are the silent "crusaders" against incompetent "teachers".

[deicruxified]

I'm not just talking about religion. I'm also talking about pretty much everything in life. Kids are not taught in school reason. They are taught to accept everything that's poured down their ears and never question anything except anything that doesn't match up with what they "know".
lovely... i love bertrand russell's philosophy of education when he said critical thinking should be instilled in children... more on bertrand russell here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). it was something from william hare about russell and he made clear and distinct points. i guess schools should follow this thought.

[deicruxified]

Though it could just be us INTJs. *We are the silent "crusaders" against incompetent "teachers".

lovely..... ;D

[Rei]

"your a dick"
my a dick what? :thinking:

[lollercancer]

"your a dick"
my a dick what? *:thinking:
"You're a dick"

and you're a stickler for grammar -_-

[Rei]

"your a dick"
my a dick what? *:thinking:
"You're a dick"

and you're a stickler for grammar -_-

:thumbsup:

The term is "Grammar Nazi" ;)

[matthew]

I was permitted to voluntarily enter the custody of the state as a young teenager based on the strength of my antipathy toward the form of religion practiced by my parents. This was a freedom provided to me by the Charter of Rights & Freedoms in my country. Arguably the custody of the state was hardly superior to the custody of my parents, but it was certainly decent life experience, and I was able to make my own way.

[Firebert]

Religion is just more knowledge. Denying anyone knowledge is inhuman. If someone decides to live in ignorance, it's their mistake.

Learn all you can about everything, regardless of whether or not you agree with it.

[Epicurus]

You shouldn't be able to teach it in public school or anything like that, not untill you aren't a stupid little child then you can take Gods **** in your *** if you want to. Bibles however and such things should be allowed.

[OneBadMother]

I think that there's nothing wrong with it being taught in school, so long as it's made crystal clear that it is theology, rather than the one possible truth.

[Jbmontag]

I don't have a problem of teaching about all religions. Though I do believe adherents of each individual religion would have a problem with the others being taught.

I live in a very conservative Christian city. These people went ape shit when the idea popped up a few months back. They were adamant that these other religions not be shown as equal to theirs, they preferred a "they exist, but are wrong" attitude if they were to be taught.

[thegnat]

I personally blame the way that kids are taught today. They're taught to sit down, shut up, and listen to teacher. Teacher teaches fact and that fact is unquestionable. Kids are not taught question, to research, the debate. If you teach a kid something, they should have enough wherewithal to at least think about what their being taught before accepting it.

Kids these days are just not motivated to get off their asses and learn their own stuff.
When I was little.. And even now, I research on much more than the stuff I am taught, and on more topics than the stuff I am taught.

Though it could just be us INTJs. We are the silent "crusaders" against incompetent "teachers".


Well - I'm 20 and I do agree generally with your statement that kids are not too motivated to learn their own stuff - reading is not too terribly common - I also think actually looking at these other topics helps you know who you really are as a person.

I've always been curious - always wanted to learn - ever since I was little. Even now I like to learn about side topics aside from focusing on chemistry. I wish I had more time to learn other stuff. So if I'm learning outside of class it's more chemistry related than anything else, which I obviously like so it's all good :) but I do wish I had more time....

I also think that if one religion is taught, every religion needs to be taught to everyone. Not just people of that religion in that class. I think it's good to know a bit about them. But not just one.

[Epicurus]

You shouldn't be able to teach it in public school or anything like that, not untill you aren't a stupid little child then you can take Gods **** in your *** if you want to. Bibles however and such things should be allowed.Actually I would like to change my statement, and switch the word teaching with preaching. :(
Also I think its very important to improve the width of religions tought and the knowledge about them, more criticism please.

Anyway, its quite absurd that religion and religous people have special treaties compared to normal people. Atleast thats the way in Sweden, the freedom of religion law...a completely worthless law when it can be included in the freedom of speech. The only thing it does is that it makes people think they can have 9 year old wifes.

The thing you could do would be to put something like a ''parental advisory explict content'' labels on religous books and symbols. ;D

[matthew]

Religion is just more knowledge. Denying anyone knowledge is inhuman. If someone decides to live in ignorance, it's their mistake.

Learn all you can about everything, regardless of whether or not you agree with it.

Some religions are implemented using clauses which help to condition the minds of children against the wider spectrum of knowledge.

Whether one agrees with their fundamental principles or not.

[Firebert]

Some religions are implemented using clauses which help to condition the minds of children against the wider spectrum of knowledge.

Whether one agrees with their fundamental principles or not.

Oh I understand that, I was speaking of learning about religion, not practicing.

[hopscotch]

I think part of the disdain for teaching religion in schools stems from a common mistake: equating religion with theology. Learning religion doesn't mean you will become indoctrinated in a particular faith. The subject can be taught in an academic, objective manner. Gaining a basic understanding of the tenets of the major religions can be an important and enlightening educational experience. Stereotypes, misconceptions and plain ignorance can be lessened or erased as students learn the basis on which beliefs and ideals are built.

I write this as someone with a BA in religious studies. My university taught religion courses from a variety of perspectives (philosophical, historical, sociological, anthropological and psychological), allowing for lively debate and analysis. Professors didn't allow their personal beliefs to colour their lectures, nor did they push us to accept one religion as the sole true faith. All are valid and have had lasting effects on the development (or lack thereof) of culture, history and politics. Even a rudimentary grasp of religion provides context for other areas of study.

Religion can be taught successfully in public schools without prompting mass conversion or inciting hate. Religion teachers should have some education in the discipline themselves and must be cautioned not to allow their own beliefs to interfere with lesson plans. I don't think religion should be mandatory, but offered as an elective, like other humanities and social sciences.

(Incidentally, I was an agnostic entering university and remain so now that I've finished.)

[Raven Queen]

What are your thoughts? The idea of making it illegal to indoctrinate children with religious belief? That's not to say making religion illegal but treating it as we do certain other substances that are abused and harmful to humans.

Example: You must be 18 to purchase the bible, torah, qur'an etc.,

I don't think it would work very well, as parents and religious organizations can still teach children whatever they wanted to. There should be more of an emphasis on encouraging them to question and form their own opinions, instead of simply accepting what the adults tell them. I used to go to church, and my impression of it was that it was a virtue to blindly accept their preaching and that we shouldn't question them. Children should be taught to reason, not find out by themselves how to after they're grown up.