View Full Version : Is existence without a god depressing?
StJimmy
09-27-2007, 04:50 AM
my own bent is to agree with that statement, if i had to pigeonhole myself i would say i'm a deist-leaning agnostic.
the thought of total atheism is something too depressing for me to accept. i like to think i replace "faith" with "hope," if that makes any sense.
my own bent is to agree with that statement, if i had to pigeonhole myself i would say i'm a deist-leaning agnostic.
the thought of total atheism is something too depressing for me to accept. *i like to think i replace "faith" with "hope," if that makes any sense.
We're totally coming full circle and ending up back at religion. Works for me. (Dear Jezebel, our Splitstress: I am sorry!)
What makes atheism depressing to you? I genuinely don't understand the viewpoint, but I would like to.
For me, the thought of there being a higher power is really unsettling because it makes me feel like everything is worthless. We don't earn anything we do because someone has either ordained us to have it, or allows us to have it. I'm not only talking about property, but life and free will and all that. If there are strings that lead back to something, it all means nothing to me because it's just a fabrication.
StJimmy
09-27-2007, 05:07 AM
eternal nothingness isn't depressing? hehe ;D
oh, and the way i look at it, "higher power" doesn't necessarily mean... you know... the old grey bearded dude on a hill. ever read heinlein? i found "stranger in a strange land" very comforting.
um, 3rd edit: yes i'm a hijacker. been that way for years. feel free to chastise me and/or move anything i post to an appropriate place, such as the trash bin, if need be :)
to refocus, in a nutshell, yes i think what most people believe about the bible to be misguided at best. i'm a terrible person, sure to be burning in hellfire for eternity.
eternal nothingness isn't depressing? hehe *;D
Clearly it's not eternal if we exist right now. The rest of the nothingness doesn't concern me because I wasn't aware during it, and I don't intend to be after I die. I like to think we came from nothing on our own accord, through luck and struggle. When we die, we'll know we were accountable for everything we've done because we chose to do what we did, whether or not we wanted to see it that way or not. Life isn't fair because we don't make it fair, so if anyone's life was subpar or ended through our own faults, we alone are ultimately responsible.
StJimmy
09-27-2007, 05:33 AM
ok. so before i was born, i wasn't "aware" of not being. now that i "am," my will maintains my existence. does entropy affect my will the same way it does my frail molecular structure? so eternity is not exactly eternal if you consider our brief lives, but for practical intents and purposes... it's good enough for me.
so, off on a somewhat related tangent i suppose, do you think the universe will just end... and that's it? or is there some sort of underlying cycle to the whole bang/rip thing that keeps it all in more or less perpetual motion
Jezebel
09-27-2007, 12:50 PM
Is existence without a god depressing? Is there comfort in knowing that there might be a higher power, or will it really matter if it's just nothingness after we die anyway?
[hr]
Split from Evolution's Missing Links thread (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).
StJimmy's reply was a response to Tarrick's comment:
I don't know how the universe was made. All I've ever said is that I think its much more unbelievable for it to have happened without some sort of Creator.
What makes atheism depressing to you? I genuinely don't understand the viewpoint, but I would like to.
For me, the thought of there being a higher power is really unsettling because it makes me feel like everything is worthless. We don't earn anything we do because someone has either ordained us to have it, or allows us to have it. I'm not only talking about property, but life and free will and all that. If there are strings that lead back to something, it all means nothing to me because it's just a fabrication.
Clearly it's not eternal if we exist right now. The rest of the nothingness doesn't concern me because I wasn't aware during it, and I don't intend to be after I die. I like to think we came from nothing on our own accord, through luck and struggle. When we die, we'll know we were accountable for everything we've done because we chose to do what we did, whether or not we wanted to see it that way or not. Life isn't fair because we don't make it fair, so if anyone's life was subpar or ended through our own faults, we alone are ultimately responsible.
That's pretty much what I think of all this.
I don't understand why one needs to be 'saved'
I don't see why there needs to be hope for something more/greater. *It's much better to just work towards something in the present, something that's here. *My goals are more immediate than that; I don't want a free meal, I want to earn it. *If I made the most of my life, I'd die and go into eternal nothingness willingly. *If I didn't, then it's not going to help that I go to heaven because it still means I've wasted my time. *It's so impractical to put empty hopes into something with no guarentee.
You know what I find depressing? *Living forever in heaven...
Imagine how immensely and ETERNALLY boring that's going to be. *Everything is perfect... meanwhile you run out of interesting things to do, because you have all the time you want to do everything; when you do whatever you want every day, you'll get sick of even the most interesting hobby... *It totally takes the whole point of living your life away. *How can you appreciate your life, how would you make the most of your time if you expect to go to heaven and have forever?
Guido
09-27-2007, 01:58 PM
I've never even of heard of someone rationalizing how heaven would be a horrible place o.0 But there it is hahaha.
Although I've said this in another thread, I personally do believe in God and the way I've chosen to live my life wouldn't have been changed had I not. As rough as this sounds, I've always equated those who are more moral because they believe in God to a child not hitting his sister because 'he'll get a cookie' rather than not hitting his sister because it's wrong to do so. Although religions everywhere have kept children from hitting their sisters, they've also encouraged crusades of sister hitting ‘in the name of God’. I've always thought of the net worth of religion being positive, however there's really no way to know this as keeping track of what's happened over the years with the billions of people in the world is impossible. People are also more likely to notice when religion fails rather than when it succeeds.
In keeping with the topic, I wouldn't find either view depressing. If God does exist, you'll have a lot of time to think this stuff over and figure it out when you die. Until then, you should be living a moral life regardless. I really have 0 understanding why some people can't see this.
Since I believe God exists, I would be depressed is he didn't. A very odd thought indeed.
Regarding heaven being boring: That is really weird. I can't imagine a more stimulating place, in any sense, than a place totally unhindered by lack of any kind. It's fun to exercise our intellects while we don't know it all. It will be a blast when we do. That's my opinion. If you don't like it, too bad. :P
rwyatt365
09-27-2007, 02:31 PM
Life without God (uppercase = old dude in the clouds, pulling our strings) would be heavenly (pun intended)! Imagine, not have that celestial goalkeeper keeping score from your every move. Being able to chart your own course not being tied to the "master calendar". And best of all, being responsible for your own actions! Imagine the freedom!
Seriously, life without God should be invigorating and rejuvenating. But there are some that need to have a codified rule book, and without God there is no direction.
As rough as this sounds, I've always equated those who are more moral because they believe in God to a child not hitting his sister because 'he'll get a cookie' rather than not hitting his sister because it's wrong to do so. Although religions everywhere have kept children from hitting their sisters, they've also encouraged crusades of sister hitting ‘in the name of God’.
Guido, I love your analogy!
So often parents (and by analogy God-fearing folk around the world) have taught the right=reward / wrong=no reward model to their children (followers). To the extent that "right" and "wrong" have no meaning, actions are motivated by rewards or their absence. And if a reward is present then the action (by example) must be "right". So, if you hit your sister and get the candy that she drops, then you are right for hitting her. Now, hitting becomes "right".
As rough as this sounds, I've always equated those who are more moral because they believe in God to a child not hitting his sister because 'he'll get a cookie' rather than not hitting his sister because it's wrong to do so. Although religions everywhere have kept children from hitting their sisters, they've also encouraged crusades of sister hitting ‘in the name of God’. I've always thought of the net worth of religion being positive, however there's really no way to know this as keeping track of what's happened over the years with the billions of people in the world is impossible. People are also more likely to notice when religion fails rather than when it succeeds.
That is a brilliant analogy *::)
Just for the record, that depresses me. *The reward system is something I grew up without, and is glad of it. *It is also a system I will never use on my kids. *I've demonstrated as such by training my dogs without treats. *:-X*There's a story behind that too, but that'd take us off topic.
People are more likely to acknowledge any failure than successes no matter what it is.
But the point is having failures means religion is not perfect. *And if religion is not perfect, I don't feel the need to follow it's path. *I might as well follow my own.
qwerty
09-27-2007, 09:21 PM
I never thought of god as being the eternal planner of the universe and indeed that would be an unsettling thought.
But in saying that having an idea that the rules of nature were imposed means it could be possible to understand them rather than chaos and it could gives me meaning to understand these rules. How can a rational exist without rationality to deduce from?
StJimmy
09-27-2007, 10:57 PM
And if religion is not perfect, I don't feel the need to follow it's path. I might as well follow my own.
:thumbsup:
matthew
09-27-2007, 11:11 PM
Is existence without a god depressing? Is there comfort in knowing that there might be a higher power, or will it really matter if it's just nothingness after we die anyway?
Freeing the mind from the god concept creates a relatively unfettered condition, in which one becomes empowered to look more directly at the specific causes and effects at work in one's given situation. This may be depressing - there is suffering in the world after all. Nevertheless, the greater potential for accurate insight that such a change creates, simultaneously produces conditions favourable to a more lasting, and thorough, kind of enjoyment of circumstances generally.
The opposite extreme from the god concept, consisting of mere denial without subsequent investigation of the genuine existential context for the processes of cause and effect (in both external & internal form) is, however, no more conducive to insight and pervasive enjoyment than one might expect a mere antithesis to be.
The life unexamined thoroughly is not -as- worth living.
There is always comfort to be found somewhere.
We seem to be predisposed to look for it, and, in most cases, a question tacitly assumes its answer. :P
Spartan26
09-28-2007, 12:39 AM
God or no god, things can still seem really pointless. *Maybe I did some good deeds, picked someone up who's stumbled, meh, so what? *Sometimes I walk around the lot where I work and see people who've truly "made it," and I can't help to think so what? *Not like hating on them but it's all so temporary and empty and I don't know, not enough.
I know that NT's have a need to viewed as competent. *So much in living for God is done w/out validation or immediate gratification. *I think part of the goal is to not look for it. *So in a sense get to the point of living as if there's no God because the life of sacrifice w/out expectation would be much more satisfying than one of acquiring. *Still, if there I'd really have a hard time living if I thought this was it, end of story, we are the highest existence. *Why freckin bother w/anything?
I personally find that no gods existing is empowering. Because that means I'm nothing more than an animal. So just like any animal that's in nature it's my duty to be the best and be number one. I owe that to myself, because this is all there is. So I'm going to be the best that I can be in whatever avenue I venture down. Mankind has grown a lot in the time we've been in power on earth. And we didn't become the dominant species on earth by sitting around and believing in gods. Some god didn't make me, I'm a product of species reproduction. I find that thought uplifting.
I don't take religion seriously, but if you believe in it that's fine by me. If you need a god to get through the day that's fine just keep it to yourself.
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 12:08 PM
I don't think that most INTJs "need" a God. But for those of us that believe there is one, live takes on a significant amount of meaning; meaning that goes beyond collecting stuff and enjoying what we can in life before biting the dust. Perhaps that's why we so split in the religion category.
I don't think that most INTJs "need" a God. But for those of us that believe there is one, live takes on a significant amount of meaning; meaning that goes beyond collecting stuff and enjoying what we can in life before biting the dust. Perhaps that's why we so split in the religion category.
What meaning does life take on by believing in religion?
I don't take religion seriously, but if you believe in it that's fine by me. *If you need a god to get through the day that's fine just keep it to yourself.
Yeah that's pretty much it.
"Don't try to save my soul without my consent." is a phrase I remember from somewhere that gave me a good laugh.
I worked at a medical lab during my summers, and one of the lab tech's kept trying to convert me. He kept telling me to "discover God" I was so seriously WTF-ed. :thinking: The most amazing part is that even if i wasn't working the same shift, he'd "follow up" on my progress. I quit the next summer so that I wouldn't have to talk to the guy again.
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 03:22 PM
What meaning does life take on by believing in religion?
Essentially? That there's a world beyond the sandbox that we all live in. They we aren't an "accident" or "random chance". That we were born for a reason, and that something/someone is responsible beyond atoms that clashing in just the most curious of was and chemicals reacted in just the correct manner.
That's all.
What meaning does life take on by believing in religion?
Essentially? That there's a world beyond the sandbox that we all live in. They we aren't an "accident" or "random chance". That we were born for a reason, and that something/someone is responsible beyond atoms that clashing in just the most curious of was and chemicals reacted in just the correct manner.
That's all.
I'd like to think we were made randomly by chance, and that we got where we are because we're brilliant. I'd rather I found my own reason to live than to have been made to serve a purpose.
What meaning does life take on by believing in religion?
Essentially? That there's a world beyond the sandbox that we all live in. They we aren't an "accident" or "random chance". That we were born for a reason, and that something/someone is responsible beyond atoms that clashing in just the most curious of was and chemicals reacted in just the correct manner.
That's all.
Oh that's all? No need to be snobbish about it.
Well that's not very reassuring. There are many planets, stars, and other cosmic objects that help take up all of that pesky empty space in the cosmos. I don't think we were born for a reason. I do not gauge my success with how many fancy objects I own. I gauge my success in my achievements and goals that I have accomplished.
If by some off chance there are some sort of god or gods. I would assume they would be similar to HP Lovecraft's fictional ancient gods. Where they just float around frozen in space waiting to be awakened to destroy mankind. I personally do no support awaking ancient evils to destroy mankind. Frogs can be frozen and can come back to life. Who's to say that it's totally impossible.
Tarrick
09-29-2007, 01:23 AM
I don't support ancient evils that want to destroy man kind either. But facts are facts, so either or not there is/are any God/gods out there is beyond our ability to call forth or deny from being.
StJimmy
09-30-2007, 02:32 AM
i sort of object to the way this thread ended up, my posts are somewhat out of context. no big deal though that's what i get for being a hijacker.
i think if the question was "is existence without the christian god depressing?" i would say no. i see more of a "system," rather than one "almighty deity" calling the shots.
OneBadMother
09-30-2007, 03:53 PM
It does seem like "Is existence without a Christian god depressing" is the name of the game here.
I've never found it particularly depressing for there to be an existence without a Christian god. In fact, I would be pretty glad of it, judging from the fact that no matter whether you interpret the Bible in a completely literal sense, selectively, or by ignoring it and simply being a Christian, God doesn't sound like a particularly great guy. Like with the Greek pantheon, he seems to be a reflection of all human pettiness combined with superhuman power and omnipotence. Plus, as a force of creation he sounds just a little too convenient, something easily thought up by the minds of human beings in a world without scientific explanations. Hmmmm.
What I find more depressing is the thought of consciousness being abruptly severed after death. I can make my own purpose in life, but I'm still gone when I'm dead, no matter what I do. That's a downer.
Jbmontag
09-30-2007, 06:53 PM
I am an atheist, I have been since my early teens. I don't worry about death, you can't remember the day before you were born. I imagine 1 second after I die, I won't know I have been alive.
I really don't know how someone holding a god belief can say life is precious, with a straight face. Considering in their view, life continues after you die? Why be sad if someone dies, when you know they're are simply living somewhere else?
I don't like using the words "chance" or "accident". Is it an accident the smartest kid gets the best grade on a test? Is it chance someone 6' 4" beats a dwarf in arm wrestling?
Personally I've never understood why a perfect being, one without flaw, would need praise. Are they feeling insecure about something?
Personally I've never understood why a perfect being, one without flaw, would need praise. Are they feeling insecure about something?
That's a good one. *I don't get it either.
It's just like in 300... I am a Spartan and God is Xerxes. *I don't care that God will give me a high place... I refuse to be under the rule of something else. *Any reasonable being should be able to accept that... unless they fear being overthrown
Edit:
I can't believe I just used 300 as a reference...
Jbmontag
09-30-2007, 07:35 PM
I'll forgive the 300 reference ;D I wasn't aware all Spartans were Calvin Klein underwear models.
I agree totally, imagine if your parents threatened you with torture to get you to clean your room? Clean your room Billy, or I'll roast you in a lake of fire FOREVER!!
I forgot to stay on topic and say, I don't believe it is a depressing existence. Though most of my life I dealt with the same accusation from the babbling bubble head personality types. Don't you get depressed being alone so much? I would go crazy without someone to talk to.
Tarrick
10-01-2007, 01:53 AM
I really don't know how someone holding a god belief can say life is precious, with a straight face. Considering in their view, life continues after you die? Why be sad if someone dies, when you know they're are simply living somewhere else?
I don't like using the words "chance" or "accident". Is it an accident the smartest kid gets the best grade on a test? Is it chance someone 6' 4" beats a dwarf in arm wrestling?
Personally I've never understood why a perfect being, one without flaw, would need praise. Are they feeling insecure about something?
First of all, I'll say life is precious. Why? Because this life is very different and unique to itself. We are in a place and position where we can become something wondrous, because after we "pass on" we won't have to struggle with life and won't have the same opportunity to fail.
Also, when you ask the question about the smartest kid, how did he become smart? How did he pass the test if he did not deliberately mark his answers? I see no accident there, but rather careful effort.
As for why God would need people to praise him, is it a flaw to be lonely? Is it a flaw to not want some recognition for what you have wrought? And as for the Angels, yes they may praise God in heaven, but they were designed from the ground up to do that. We on the other hand are allowed to choose to do it if we want. And that is what makes it much more precious to Him.
OneBadMother
10-01-2007, 05:00 AM
However, the stupidest kid also marked his answers, and got them wrong. :P Counter-question: If humans don't need appendixes or small, stubby tails, why do we have them?
Tarrick
10-01-2007, 05:45 AM
However, the stupidest kid also marked his answers, and got them wrong. :P Counter-question: If humans don't need appendixes or small, stubby tails, why do we have them?
Yes but even to answer wrongly he has to make deliberate movements to mark the answer. The pencil doesn't just mark it up because it felt like it.
As for the biology, I don't know. I didn't design the human body. Why did sex evolve? Why didn't nature just stay with asexual production?
OneBadMother
10-01-2007, 06:40 AM
Those are also good questions, and ones that cause a Christian God to come into question. Unless you're one of those Intelligent Design folks.
Jbmontag
10-01-2007, 09:33 AM
I really don't know how someone holding a god belief can say life is precious, with a straight face. Considering in their view, life continues after you die? Why be sad if someone dies, when you know they're are simply living somewhere else?
I don't like using the words "chance" or "accident". Is it an accident the smartest kid gets the best grade on a test? Is it chance someone 6' 4" beats a dwarf in arm wrestling?
Personally I've never understood why a perfect being, one without flaw, would need praise. Are they feeling insecure about something?
First of all, I'll say life is precious. Why? Because this life is very different and unique to itself. We are in a place and position where we can become something wondrous, because after we "pass on" we won't have to struggle with life and won't have the same opportunity to fail.
Also, when you ask the question about the smartest kid, how did he become smart? How did he pass the test if he did not deliberately mark his answers? I see no accident there, but rather careful effort.
As for why God would need people to praise him, is it a flaw to be lonely? Is it a flaw to not want some recognition for what you have wrought? And as for the Angels, yes they may praise God in heaven, but they were designed from the ground up to do that. We on the other hand are allowed to choose to do it if we want. And that is what makes it much more precious to Him.
Evolution is simply the competition of species to survive in their environment.
If that competition requires the smartest, the smartest will win. If it requires the strongest, the strongest will win. No accidents, no chances, hence my example.
As far as why or how the those two came to be in their current state. There is no concrete answer and is under debate by people more well versed in the subject than me.
So life is precious, because it is exactly like the afterlife? The only thing in your example to illustrate a difference between the two is, struggle and, opportunity to become wondrous? I've worked with severely mentally disabled children, they won't become anything "wondrous".
I find life precious because it is finite to me. It is my only chance to feel the wind and eat Twinkies, and a host of other things I've never seen a corpse do.
Yes, when you "want" or "need" anything, it is because you are lacking something. By definition a perfect being can't lack anything. Funny, your deity would want recognition, then hide its existence so well as to require faith from its followers. Faith being belief in the absence of empirical proof, or evidence to the contrary.
As for why God would need people to praise him, is it a flaw to be lonely? Is it a flaw to not want some recognition for what you have wrought? And as for the Angels, yes they may praise God in heaven, but they were designed from the ground up to do that. We on the other hand are allowed to choose to do it if we want. And that is what makes it much more precious to Him.
No disrepect, but I do think it is a flaw to be lonely. It means you need others to be content. If you are happy enough with yourself, you don't need anyone else. Recognition? Why is it then, that he asks his followers to do good without asking to be repaid until we prove 'good' enough when we die to go to heaven. Why must we prove ourselves, while he does not.
Essentially, as an INTJ, I will not bow my head and give respect until one has proven worthy of it. And God has not and is not proving anything to me.
Jbmontag
10-01-2007, 04:27 PM
It isn't a flaw per se, but does denote a need or want of something you don't have. I just used it to illustrate a point about perfection. In every monotheistic religion their deity, whatever the name, is always described as perfect. Perfect doesn't need or want for anything.
I don't take any disrespect from a question or opinion.
The real question is, is the Christian god an ESFJ, or an ESFP?
The real question is, is the Christian god an ESFJ, or an ESFP?
::)
How'd you determine the ESF part?
The real question is, is the Christian god an ESFJ, or an ESFP?
I would imagine it would be an ENTJ.
The real question is, is the Christian god an ESFJ, or an ESFP?
::)
How'd you determine the ESF part?
They're fueled by praise and they get lonely easily without company.
Tarrick
10-02-2007, 12:22 AM
No disrespect, but I do think it is a flaw to be lonely. It means you need others to be content. If you are happy enough with yourself, you don't need anyone else. Recognition? Why is it then, that he asks his followers to do good without asking to be repaid until we prove 'good' enough when we die to go to heaven. Why must we prove ourselves, while he does not.
Essentially, as an INTJ, I will not bow my head and give respect until one has proven worthy of it. And God has not and is not proving anything to me.
So, if loneliness is a flaw, then we should all be working to stamp it out of ourselves and not need any companionship right? I mean, if what you say is true then it's something then we should be working to be better hermits, not better members of any community. You make it out as if friends are a crutch that we need to lean on because we have a flaw.
Recognition, or the need thereof, is a bit more ambiguous, but if you made a whole universe and put people in it and cared for them, then wouldn't you want at least a small measure of gratitude?
As for asking us to repay him, he isn't. "We love because he first loved us." (Full Context (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. n=31&context=context)) If the bible is true (as I believe it is) then there is no need for us to "buy" our salvation. However, once one does accept it, wholeheartedly, they are asked to do as the Father asks. Why? It's frikkin polite that's why! Respecting the rules of the house and family that bring you in is just plain polite. Would you disrespect the rules of the house that you dwell in?
As for God's temperament, he's an INTJ of course! :P
Well if you put it that way.
I actually do work to be a better 'hermit', self-sufficient, self-reliant. *I only socialize for the benefit of other people, because apparently I'm very scary when I don't talk. *(Okay fine I may be stretching it a bit there. *But I do find needing companionship a weakness, just my opinion.)
Yeah I'd want a little gratitude... of course, I'm not perfect.
Guess the problem is I don't want to be taken in, and I'm not accepting it wholeheartedly. *I will say though, if I ever did, I would follow the rules... to some degree. =/
I do thank you wholeheartedly for explaining though. If this were at any other forum, this would be a raging battle field of non-related name calling by now.
Anyway...
Conclusion: I'm a hermit and a hobo in the religious sector. *;)
OneBadMother
10-02-2007, 03:13 AM
Loneliness is fine and dandy until it become possessiveness and jealousy. :P I would argue that God is a bit of both.
deicruxified
10-02-2007, 06:27 AM
The real question is, is the Christian god an ESFJ, or an ESFP?
I would imagine it would be an ENTJ.
they say god is an intj
The real question is, is the Christian god an ESFJ, or an ESFP?
I would imagine it would be an ENTJ.
they say god is an intj
He seems a bit too controlling for an INTJ. Always manipulating people to do his bidding with visions, forcing people to follow his rules or he'll banish you to hell. If god was an introvert then he wouldn't care what the human races does so because he does care about controlling the human race it would seem that he would be extroverted.
I suppose god could have developed some sort of control issues during childhood so he could be a manipulative and have control issues. Maybe he has borderline personality disorder, which would explain his sudden fits of rage towards the human race. So maybe god is an INTJ with BPD, but I think it would be more likely that he's an ENTJ.
Tarrick
10-02-2007, 10:01 PM
He seems a bit too controlling for an INTJ. Always manipulating people to do his bidding with visions, forcing people to follow his rules or he'll banish you to hell. If god was an introvert then he wouldn't care what the human races does so because he does care about controlling the human race it would seem that he would be extroverted.
You know what? I want proof. You say he "manipulates", show me where. You say we have to follow the rules or else we go to hell. Show me where that's stated. I've read the bible and I want know where exactly in you are coming from. Assuming we're talking about God from the Bible specifically, that is. List me some proof of your accusations. I've sited sources, you all can do the same.
deicruxified
10-02-2007, 11:49 PM
So maybe god is an INTJ with BPD, but I think it would be more likely that he's an ENTJ.
...or just a workaholic intj just getting his/her/its work done as he/she/it in a standard he/she/it set for him/her/itself
lol... what i could consider an intj is krishna... slay people for world order... actually ORDERS the king to do it... lol... krishna is a strategist and horseman of king arjuna
OneBadMother
10-02-2007, 11:53 PM
What, do you want freakin' citations and footnotes, Tarrick? :P C'mon.
You will admit at least that God expects obedience, right? He put down ten commandments, which are more or less rules. If you break the ten commandments, that's a sin. If you sin you are punished. So, god is rules-oriented and authoritarian. He expects people to follow those rules that he put down, and depending on who you ask either smites like Zeus for arbitrary reasons or is loving and ever-forgiving. But more often people subscribe to the former view, and based on that he is a control freak, which is not exactly an INTJ trait last I checked. <_<
deicruxified
10-02-2007, 11:56 PM
He seems a bit too controlling for an INTJ. Always manipulating people to do his bidding with visions, forcing people to follow his rules or he'll banish you to hell. If god was an introvert then he wouldn't care what the human races does so because he does care about controlling the human race it would seem that he would be extroverted.
You know what? I want proof. You say he "manipulates", show me where. You say we have to follow the rules or else we go to hell. Show me where that's stated. I've read the bible and I want know where exactly in you are coming from. Assuming we're talking about God from the Bible specifically, that is. List me some proof of your accusations. I've sited sources, you all can do the same.
as for the hell part, i do believe there was not any passage in the bible stating that there really is a place called hell. if ever the bible god intervenes, that is to redirect his people or just to test their faith like other gods and goddesses do in other religions.
What, do you want freakin' citations and footnotes, Tarrick? :P C'mon.
You will admit at least that God expects obedience, right? He put down ten commandments, which are more or less rules. If you break the ten commandments, that's a sin. If you sin you are punished. So, god is rules-oriented and authoritarian. He expects people to follow those rules that he put down, and depending on who you ask either smites like Zeus for arbitrary reasons or is loving and ever-forgiving. But more often people subscribe to the former view, and based on that he is a control freak, which is not exactly an INTJ trait last I checked. <_<
i was thinking of free will as well. if god really is an uber controll freak, then no such thing would exist as we would only be puppets. we always have the choice to sin or not. i just see it like a guitar when a string is off key as it would happen most of the time depending on some environmental conditions. just imagine yourself as a guitar string... a guitar string's "destiny" is to be in tune and be one with the guitar so the gutarist does a lot of plucking and strumming then tweaks the knob a lot of times... of course for the string it would hurt A LOT. but then the purpose would be is for every string to get the right note. in connection, i just think god is just following his own system and is just bound by it. a realization kicked in that he's not that free "free"... as he has some system to take care of.
:edit: i cannot show enough facts as this happens to be just a realization but then i am not claiming to be original on this one. i do hope i make sense.
StJimmy
10-03-2007, 08:15 PM
as for the hell part, i do believe there was not any passage in the bible stating that there really is a place called hell. if ever the bible god intervenes, that is to redirect his people or just to test their faith like other gods and goddesses do in other religions.
it is indeed a valid point to say that there's no "hell" mentioned in the bible; however, doesn't it refer to eternal damnation or some such, plainly enough? so i mean really, we'd be splitting hairs. and, as far as "hell" goes we owe far more to dante's inferno than the bible insofar as how most people perceive it nowadays.
no offense to anyone at all, but these sorts of conversations always sort of degenerate into a morass of tangents and fact-less opinions. i wouldn't bother trying to split threads like this. eventually i'd just lock them so forum goers can start more specific threads and re-work through the arguments from a fresh start, and maybe get some new opinions, to boot :)
INTJohn
10-04-2007, 07:17 AM
Hi Jezebel........in answer to your Q: a great book for you to start , I think, is Richard Carrier's book "Sense & Goodness Without God" subtitled "A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism"..........
This book is paperback and about 15/20 bux, I think, on line.......enjoy!
INTJohn
rwyatt365
10-04-2007, 08:54 AM
as for the hell part, i do believe there was not any passage in the bible stating that there really is a place called hell. if ever the bible god intervenes, that is to redirect his people or just to test their faith like other gods and goddesses do in other religions.
it is indeed a valid point to say that there's no "hell" mentioned in the bible; however, doesn't it refer to eternal damnation or some such, plainly enough? *so i mean really, we'd be splitting hairs. *and, as far as "hell" goes we owe far more to dante's inferno than the bible insofar as how most people perceive it nowadays.
no offense to anyone at all, but these sorts of conversations always sort of degenerate into a morass of tangents and fact-less opinions. *i wouldn't bother trying to split threads like this. *eventually i'd just lock them so forum goers can start more specific threads and re-work through the arguments from a fresh start, and maybe get some new opinions, to boot *:)
Actually, StJimmy & deicruxified, it depends on what you term "hell". In the Old Testament there are mentions of "Sheol" (in the Hebrew) - a place of the dead, and in the New Testament there are mentions of "Hades" (in the greek) - a similar place of the dead. Both of these words have been translated as "hell" in the KJV of the Bible.
There are also passages that spaek of places where there is "...weeping and gnashing of teeth...", and places of punishment where there is fire and despair. Yes, our movieland version of Hell is derived mostly from Dante's "Inferno", but the source of that vision is still the bible.
...and splitting this discussion might be warranted.
iamnotspock
10-09-2007, 03:38 AM
He seems a bit too controlling for an INTJ. Always manipulating people to do his bidding with visions, forcing people to follow his rules or he'll banish you to hell. If god was an introvert then he wouldn't care what the human races does so because he does care about controlling the human race it would seem that he would be extroverted.
You know what? I want proof. You say he "manipulates", show me where. You say we have to follow the rules or else we go to hell. Show me where that's stated. I've read the bible and I want know where exactly in you are coming from. Assuming we're talking about God from the Bible specifically, that is. List me some proof of your accusations. I've sited sources, you all can do the same.
"The" Bible? There are so many versions. Do you mean *your* Bible? Half of which a Jew would not believe? And which a Muslim would find to be incomplete?
Anyway, let's start with the ten commandmants, which the Big Three all sort of agree on, from Exodus. Here you will find God talking to his people in the desert, saying something like:
"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. You shall have no other god but me. And you shall not make any idols. B/c I am a jealous god. And if you make idols I will punish you and your children and your children's children."
So basically what the dude is saying is:
Remember back when you were the pathetic slaves of the Pharoh? Well, who is the Big Man who solved that problem? That's right. That would be me. Now would you like to go **back** to Egypt? B/c that can be arranged. If not, you will be doing exactly what I say. Good. Now the first thing is, you will be paying attention only to me. And if you don't, I am gonna level some nasty shit on you, and when I'm done with you, on your children, and when I'm done with them, on their children. I'm not even gonna tell you what that shit is, but you remember how it worked out for the Pharoh, with the frogs and the lice and the death of the first-born? Good, so keep that in mind.
Which, you know, sounds a lot like a pimp indoctrinating his women. Like:
Listen up you helpless little ho, you would be back in the shack with your drunk daddy if I didn't drag you out of there. So from now on, I am your Daddy, unless you want me to leave you out here on the street all alone. And if you find another Daddy, or ignore me, I'm gonna handle you like I handled him. Not only that, but I'm gonna take it out on your baby, and your grandikids, too. Are we straight? But if you follow all of my rules, and there are gonna be a hell of a lot of them, then I will be nice to you. Now get on your knees, wench...
Overall, I think this would qualify as blatant manipulation and intimidation. As the Talmudic scholars say, the Jews did not accept the ten commandmants so much as they were held over their heads like a mountain . . .
StJimmy
10-10-2007, 07:36 PM
Actually, StJimmy & deicruxified, it depends on what you term "hell". In the Old Testament there are mentions of "Sheol" (in the Hebrew) - a place of the dead, and in the New Testament there are mentions of "Hades" (in the greek) - a similar place of the dead. Both of these words have been translated as "hell" in the KJV of the Bible.
There are also passages that spaek of places where there is "...weeping and gnashing of teeth...", and places of punishment where there is fire and despair. Yes, our movieland version of Hell is derived mostly from Dante's "Inferno", but the source of that vision is still the bible.
...and splitting this discussion might be warranted.
yes, what we're calling "hell" here must be defined within a specific context. i submit that, while i necessarily believe in neither of them, what the bible actually says and what people believe are wildly different.
i've done quite a lot of reading on subjects like this already, so check this out To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. and see what you think. if you care to dispute any of the major points therein please do so here, and if a mod wants to move this to it's own thread that would be groovy too.
rwyatt365
10-11-2007, 10:23 AM
Actually, StJimmy & deicruxified, it depends on what you term "hell". In the Old Testament there are mentions of "Sheol" (in the Hebrew) - a place of the dead, and in the New Testament there are mentions of "Hades" (in the greek) - a similar place of the dead. Both of these words have been translated as "hell" in the KJV of the Bible.
There are also passages that spaek of places where there is "...weeping and gnashing of teeth...", and places of punishment where there is fire and despair. Yes, our movieland version of Hell is derived mostly from Dante's "Inferno", but the source of that vision is still the bible.
...and splitting this discussion might be warranted.
yes, what we're calling "hell" here must be defined within a specific context. *i submit that, while i necessarily believe in neither of them, what the bible actually says and what people believe are wildly different.
i've done quite a lot of reading on subjects like this already, so check this out To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. and see what you think. *if you care to dispute any of the major points therein please do so here, and if a mod wants to move this to it's own thread that would be groovy too.
I read it, and it made my head spin. Not because I was swayed by the arguments laid out, but by the context switches and labyrinthian mis-use of logical argument contained in the article. I'd have to do a more thorough reading with a KJV, word-study and Concordance in-hand and I'm not prepared to do that right now.
One thing that I will say is that if the author had taken his own advice and "take the Bible for what it says" he would disprove his own point - IMHO.
StJimmy
10-13-2007, 06:59 AM
ok then. my initial reaction was, quite honestly, to be flippant in my reply. after a rethink to clarify my position, i will say here that i was raised southern baptist... we used the king james, and i'm pretty familiar with it.... i never meant to imply the contents of that link to be irrefutable, or even well organized, merely an example of the plethora of material out there on the subject, to be had with a google search or two....
so how about this? he pretty much outlines the steps to what you suggest, with a copy of the KJV and a strong's concordance.... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
or how about this outline for a class taught by a phd from yale.... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
all i'm saying is that maybe we've gotten some wires crossed somewhere... if one admits the commedia had any influence on modern christian thought, it is important to understand that the work is a product of medieval christian culture....
i could go on and on, dispute the widely held interpretation of virgil as an allegorical expression of "reason," talk about why a pagan poet is featured so prominently in what is intrinsically a christian work... but that would be taking us even further off topic than we already are i suppose.
deicruxified
10-25-2007, 04:43 AM
on the hell ish... i do think it's more of a state of mind and i would have to agree with st jimmy a bit on eternal damnation. a lot of people's concept of hell is "location" so if we're looking for an exact place wherein god GOD said this is such thing as "hell" in the scriptures it would be quite impossible although we could compare "this is what hell looks like" or based on feelings "this is how hell feels like". i do hope people here gets my point. just to give you a history of our nation, way back in 1600's the spanish colonizers' way of herding the sultanate communities in the land were the use of church bells. of course everyone was curious so they went to the plains. way back, the sultanate territory is based on far can drum sounds be heard so hearing a different sound made them curious. the spanish taught religion by means of pictures since they don't know the language of the people yet and they exagerated the part on hell. until now, most catholics here have a concept of hell as a location so no matter so much people "sin" they don't care since they're not yet going there. that's because there was no clear cut description in the scriptures as to what hell is like. we cannot blame our ancestors for not knowing more about religion because the bible was not allowed to be touched by a commoner but by priests alone. i do think there are some similarities with other countries as well esp during the dark ages (i just think so but please refresh my mind) wherein the bible was not allowed to read by the lay people. going back, my point is that no clear thing about hell as a place but it's more of assumption of feelings toward what should be the outcome if you've done so-called evil. the "location" i think, just supplements the feeling.
hmm :suspicious: *migraine* :'(
Bossy Mom
10-25-2007, 12:16 PM
I think religion is for people who cannot accept the idea of infinity. I don't understand people who think that our lives had to have been planned. When one considers the size of the universe and the number of planets, life is probably on other ones, too. It is logical, not depressing.
vulcan
10-25-2007, 02:41 PM
No it isn't depressing because I am God.
I suddenly realized this one day when praying quietly to myself that I was in fact, praying to MYSELF! If there was no god, my daily act of prayer was merely self-meditation and I had the power within myself to change any problem I had.
Every person is their own god. This is how it has been since the dawn of time, and yet there are periods in history dominated by those who use every ounce of energy in denying their own and other's basic instincts.
StJimmy
10-25-2007, 03:12 PM
i grok thou art god, vulcan.
No it isn't depressing because I am God.
I suddenly realized this one day when praying quietly to myself that I was in fact, praying to MYSELF! If there was no god, my daily act of prayer was merely self-meditation and I had the power within myself to change any problem I had.
Every person is their own god. This is how it has been since the dawn of time, and yet there are periods in history dominated by those who use every ounce of energy in denying their own and other's basic instincts.
Read the avatar - I AM GOD. :P
jtskinner
10-27-2007, 07:46 PM
It depends on your level of cosmic fear I suppose. H.P. Lovecraft would call it a fear of the dark. Existence alone seems to be depressing at times even if you have a God. As an atheist I would say no, Albert Einstein strove to understand the mysterious and I agree. You need a purpose in life but not always a God in my opinion.
I'll take the OP as assuming one needs god for belief in an afterlife, even though one doesn't seem to need theism in it's many forms to believe in an afterlife.
I find the idea of a perfect being depressing, everything I achieve was thanks to him not me, and he could of achieved it himself, except infinitely more so. Basically life without god seems more adventurous.
As for the afterlife, well since I don't see any empirical evidence (and rarely believe in empiricism anyway), I went for the mathmatical approach: There's about 1 in infinite possibilities involving no afterlife, more specifically infinite in absolute infinite possibilities, since there are infinite no afterlife possibilities.
So basically it's a lucky dip, but MAINLY I see myself lucking at a phase which I can't comprehend. E.g Maybe I won't exist, but maybe I'll be in a state other than existence, something wildly beyond my imagination, so to make assumptions seems totally irrational, not bad though, but totally pointless in my current state of mind.
Epicurus
10-28-2007, 11:05 PM
Its the excistance of people who believe in God wich is depressing, or makes it depressing for the rest, in different ways.
Myrak
11-25-2007, 02:01 PM
Its the excistance of people who believe in God wich is depressing, or makes it depressing for the rest, in different ways.
This would be my view also.
I am still currently attending a Catholic high school and I am absolutely sick to the point of insanity of having this shit forced down my throat everyday. I know, I know... "Why are you still going to this school?" etc. Well I've got one year left and I'm out of there anyway, so I might as well see it out. Plus it was my parents' choice, and the actual school isn't bad at all, it's just the constant undertones which rack at my brain.
The best I can do is make light of them whenever I can (Religion class :undecided: ) but I can't even bare to do that any more. I just don't want to hear about the subject matter at all; so much to the point of I was given 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins as a birthday present, and I can't even bear to finish it several months later.
And just a point on religion and morality, in my case I'd say religion is completely unnecessary for morality. I consider myself a pragmatic person and would estimate I would make better ethical decisions than 95% of my year group. We spent this entire year "studying" ethical behaviour in Religion class. Without a doubt, it was the worst course I'd ever been through (narrowly edging out my Computer Science course). I still fail to see how making collages and watching random art house films relates to 'ethical behaviour' in any way, shape or form.
Ah, this forum is great catharsis already. :)
blueback
11-25-2007, 02:53 PM
We spent this entire year "studying" ethical behaviour in Religion class. Without a doubt, it was the worst course I'd ever been through
LOL, I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I'm going to a military school and we have an honor code, so, of course, we have honor classes where we learn how to be honorable. We basically just watch a clip from a movie and then stare at each other while the teacher tries to get us to talk about it.
stasis
11-27-2007, 03:20 PM
Is existence without a god depressing?
No. The thought of existence without accepting a god idea thusfar fails to bother me in the slightest.
my own bent is to agree with that statement, if i had to pigeonhole myself i would say i'm a deist-leaning agnostic.
the thought of total atheism is something too depressing for me to accept. i like to think i replace "faith" with "hope," if that makes any sense.
Dunno, but relying on the notion of a god is more depressing!
If God exists, then he's an alien. And there's more than likely to be one of them. Although maybe he's the one assigned to this planet <- I could accept that ;D.
The question really is, if everything is "gods creatures" then do animals go to hell? And if so, could Hell actually be full of fish? (And where would they swim?).
Angothoron
12-01-2007, 05:58 PM
I exist daily with the idea of a god non existing, and it is what drives my scientific thought process, I have tried, and hard, to stem that, in order to come closer to my family, and failed miserably.
If a physics experiment does what you expect, because you calculated it, and you attribute that to a God, great nothing extraordinary happened. If you instead attribute it to a natural phenomena, you now can say "Jeeze those calculations were good." And build off it, because you can be pretty sure it will happen again.
I exist daily with the idea of a god non existing, and it is what drives my scientific thought process, I have tried, and hard, to stem that, in order to come closer to my family, and failed miserably.
If a physics experiment does what you expect, because you calculated it, and you attribute that to a God, great nothing extraordinary happened. If you instead attribute it to a natural phenomena, you now can say "Jeeze those calculations were good." And build off it, because you can be pretty sure it will happen again.
One thing though, science only unpicks what exists... it doesn't actually say the original why?
To me as an analogy... Everything "knowable" is like a river, and science slowly allows us to swim upstream...to a source if we are lucky....
I also believe that if aliens exist... they may believe in their own god... we might all be similar in our lack of infinite understanding.
Angothoron
12-02-2007, 05:45 PM
Why do you need, or even desire why?
If we can figure out what happens, why is then essentially useless.
For example, Gravity. I can tell you how fast something will fall with near certainty, and make something based on that. Why it does that over and over again, is irrelevant. So therefore, even if some higher being tells me that he is doing it, bully for him. It still works according to my predictions and therefore I can plan accordingly.
Why do you need, or even desire why?
If we can figure out what happens, why is then essentially useless.
For example, Gravity. I can tell you how fast something will fall with near certainty, and make something based on that. Why it does that over and over again, is irrelevant. So therefore, even if some higher being tells me that he is doing it, bully for him. It still works according to my predictions and therefore I can plan accordingly.
Most people that think quite a bit will think Why?
If you don't think why, then you might as well be an ESTP or something fun.
Also, science revolves around the Why concept. Gravity has only been understood by people that think Why. If we didn't think Why there'd be no medicine or any technology to be honest.. We'd be worshipping some sun god or something.
So, people thinking about small Why’s and inventing will always think about the big Why. Remember, Purpose = Why.
Laura_Palmer
12-02-2007, 09:49 PM
I think religion is for people who cannot accept the idea of infinity. I don't understand people who think that our lives had to have been planned. When one considers the size of the universe and the number of planets, life is probably on other ones, too. It is logical, not depressing.
I agree and find existence without a god refreshing rather than depressing. The thought of a god being "in control" of everything out there doesn't comfort me in the slightest.
vkut79
12-03-2007, 01:52 AM
Most people that think quite a bit will think Why?
If you don't think why, then you might as well be an ESTP or something fun.
Also, science revolves around the Why concept. Gravity has only been understood by people that think Why. If we didn't think Why there'd be no medicine or any technology to be honest.. We'd be worshipping some sun god or something.
So, people thinking about small Why’s and inventing will always think about the big Why. Remember, Purpose = Why.
There is a difference between asking the question why in regards to something that is within the reach of our intellect and asking why in regards to something that is outside of it.
The question "why is gravity?" arguably is within our reach because we could hypothetically study physics further and advance to such a level of emperical understanding where we could find some underlying scientific cause to which we could attribute the answer to the "why is gravity?" question. It is a separate argument whether or not we can be certain about the truth of emperical knowledge, but if one accepts it in principal as a basis than the process works.
The question "why do I exist?" is a different sort of question from the previous one. It is not within the reach of our intellect by virtue of its subject alone. The question why can only be asked about things to which we can attribute causes, such as in emperical investigation, whereas with the question "why do I exist?" there is no possible cause to be found. If a cause exists, it would be found outside of our existence, and we have no means for investigating outside of our experience. Therefore, the question is not even reasonable. You could come up with any answer, and it could be plausible, because there is no way to test its validity.
This is why religions come in all shapes and sizes - all of them are attempting to answer a why question that is beyond the reach of our intellect, thereby producing numerous different answers, none of which can be proven true or false. They are plausible, but none of them are necessarily true. When someone believes in God, they don't have any real indubitable reason to believe in him, they just do on faith - unless they believe the hollow arguments of other believers.
I think religion is good for people who have a certain psychological disposition (most do). As for myself, I am a very rational person, and as such I find the idea of beliving in religion without any real reason to be completely ridiculous and laughable. I much prefer being an atheist, believing that nature is mysterious and infinitely complex beyond simplification. It is not depressing - it is very interesting and exciting (as in science, for example).
Paul V
12-05-2007, 08:50 PM
Not at all. In fact, it's exciting. As I've said before in a similar thread: "I refuse to believe that there's a supreme being guiding my every action, and rendering my free will useless."
I'd hate to believe that everything I've accomplished has been due to the will of another being.
Mechanical Messiah
12-05-2007, 10:08 PM
I would find it horribly depressing to believe that we are all just meat-puppets playing out the "will" of ego-stroking omni-being.
I would also find it depressing to believe that life was some cosmic ant-farm... all of us scurrying around, hoping to avoid the wrath of His Holy Magnifying Glass.
Personally, I find it liberating to know that any "meaning" in life can be of my own design and/or interpretation. Beats the hell out of trying to decipher meaning from a cryptic ancient text with multiple translation errors and obvious plagiarism.
Solnath
12-06-2007, 03:38 PM
Without a god? Any god? I can live without the Christian God, but life without Odin, the All-Father and the rest of his merry men and women? Kill me now.
silverlady
12-08-2007, 08:33 AM
I suspect there is something... but how it all works... hmmm... are we pulling the strings or is he/she/it? If our actions are being judged, shouldn't we know what right or wrong is? Or do we deep inside know (conscience)? How can we measure our effect our on the world around us?
Bonnie
12-08-2007, 01:25 PM
I find the idea that all THIS is just a 'test' for whatever's next far more depressing than the idea that this is it - having one shot at it makes so many things more worthwhile and valuable.
Hypomanic
12-08-2007, 04:38 PM
Existence without god isn't depressing at all. I have science. I find it creepy that people put such faith in something that cannot be tested or proven.
Newton's Laws Of Motion sum it up for me: "To every action force there is an equal, but opposite, reaction force". If you're evil, evil things will happen to you during your lifetime. If you are noble, you are bound to have novelty in your life. Karma. Everyone gets what is coming to them. No need to wait until death to punish the bad, you can find comfort in knowing they're being punished right now. Okay, that was a little dark, but like the belief in Hell isn't?
Antares
12-31-2007, 11:25 PM
I find it depressing that there are no unicorns and fairies, because they are what I rather believe in instead of reality (I don't really believe those lol), but in no way do I find the existence without God depressing.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams
I find that we don't have to add anything to our universe. It's amazing enough already.
Blacklustre King
01-10-2008, 12:23 AM
My view on this topic is ultimately self confidence. Many religions, particularly European, have engraved a kind of inferiority complex into their followers. If “God” had never existed as an idea or a principle we would not have this problem.
Religious people become violently threatened when their religions are questioned because these religions are the fundamentals of their own little world, the security they feel in being looked after by some mass hysterical imaginary friend. Truly it is more childish then anything.
Ultimately it comes down to humanity to decide for themselves, rather then submitting all thought and philosophy to a non existent entity. Finding comfort in a false principle, I’ am all for allowing those who want to believe in it to revel in their own insecurities. Allowing a fundamental fear control them, allowing those who preach this word to ultimately be the controllers, not this “God” of whom so many believe.
If humanity as a whole is ever to evolve conscious these “fear based” beliefs need to be extinguished. I’ am saying this purely as an INTJ, they damage a system that is already in grave disrepair. For when this world plummets into a crisis, a lot of the man power that would be required to maintain some inkling of modern existence is turned to “God” whether by suicide or hopelessness.
Beery Swine
05-22-2008, 08:07 AM
No, you got it bassackwards. Existence with a God/s is depressing, but thank God I cured myself of that mental malady.
No, you got it bassackwards. Existence with a God/s is depressing, but thank God I cured myself of that mental malady.
Explain. The vast majority of people who are truly happy with their lives are religious and it serves many psychological benefits.
If existing without having a God to look up to is depressing then consequently God would have to be pretty depressed himself, wouldn’t he…?
If existing without having a God to look up to is depressing then consequently God would have to be pretty depressed himself, wouldn’t he…?
Your logic is hilarious. (Not necessarily true, but still :laugh:)
Your logic is hilarious. (Not necessarily true, but still :laugh:)
Actually my whole thing is that I think more like a grown-up in these respects. To a child their parents are simply magical beings, who can make weird things happen, who have power, as if by magic. But the older you become the more you realize their true nature and their limitations. At some point you empathize with them by mentally putting yourself in their shoes, seeing things from their perspective. It is at that point that a child realizes that their parents are nothing but other people who have been around a bit longer. That’s when a child grows up.
Abrahamic mythology worshipers, who don’t even dare to think about what it would be like to be God (if there were one), are still very much like toddlers—very helpless and unreasonable. Still very much in the cradle…
Beery Swine
05-23-2008, 11:18 PM
Explain. The vast majority of people who are truly happy with their lives are religious and it serves many psychological benefits.
Sure, but in return you MUST justify your statement on psychological benefits.
When there's a God who is perfect and mercyful and just and blah blah blah you (I) feel like nothing but a miserable excuse for an entity who does nothing but make mistakes, always wondering whether you're doing what it deems right, just, etc. because it hasn't told you directly, and the people who do claim to have God on the blower tend to contradict each other, so you're left wondering who to believe in the absence of first-hand knowledge. It keeps you scared that you're never doing the "right" thing and because of this you will be tortured forever, even though you didn't know which set of petty rules to follow in the first place.
Oh yeah, I just thought of something else. When there's a perfect world that is promised you as soon as you die, if you truly believe this, as I once did, you should logically welcome your own demise, even long for it to the point of seriously considering handling the matter yourself, thus expediting your great reward. That's one reason why I don't think most religious people really believe what they say they believe and why I think the WTC hijacker really did believe what they said they believed.
Latte
05-23-2008, 11:22 PM
You may deem a person's reaction to a noun a property of that noun, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a reaction, and not a property of the noun.
The food is not tasty. You experience pleasure when experiencing yourself eating the food.
Sure, but in return you MUST justify your statement on psychological benefits.
When there's a God who is perfect and mercyful and just and blah blah blah you (I) feel like nothing but a miserable excuse for an entity who does nothing but make mistakes, always wondering whether you're doing what it deems right, just, etc. because it hasn't told you directly, and the people who do claim to have God on the blower tend to contradict each other, so you're left wondering who to believe in the absence of first-hand knowledge. It keeps you scared that you're never doing the "right" thing and because of this you will be tortured forever, even though you didn't know which set of petty rules to follow in the first place.
"Mercyful". God is still willing to forgive a person for his/her sins because everyone sins. Many of those who are truly happy are in an induced state of happiness based on their faith that God will forgive them for all the good they did in life. The ones that focus on the bad confess their sins and end up happy anyway. Keeping people scared that they never do the "right" thing is actually a relief for some because at the very least they know what is "right" and what is "wrong".
This thread (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)explains why a person may be happier being religious.
Oh yeah, I just thought of something else. When there's a perfect world that is promised you as soon as you die, if you truly believe this, as I once did, you should logically welcome your own demise, even long for it to the point of seriously considering handling the matter yourself, thus expediting your great reward. That's one reason why I don't think most religious people really believe what they say they believe and why I think the WTC hijacker really did believe what they said they believed.
Suicide is only applicable in certain cases for all the major religions. It is condemed by Christianity. I think "long for it" goes under desire, greed, and impatience all of which are not virtues.
Monte314
05-25-2008, 12:13 AM
Existence without a creator depressing?
As an INTJ, I guess I am a little depressed by the notion of an effect without a cause.
Moriarty
05-25-2008, 03:29 PM
Existence without a creator depressing?
As an INTJ, I guess I am a little depressed by the notion of an effect without a cause.
That sounds like another way of saying you don't like the idea of significant things existing without something causing them to exist. As an INTJ, where does your mind wander when you go backwards one more step in the causation chain?
gillyweet
05-25-2008, 04:55 PM
someone once told me that not believing in a God meant that you had nothing to fall back on. kind of like "if all else fails, at least God still loves you" and how you had someone you could confide your problems to and place your absolute trust in. also that you would never feel lonely if you believed in the Christian God because he's always there to look after you.
then that same person said she pitied me for not believing in the Christian God.
i was 14 at that time and that person's words had a very deep impact on me. i thought about it for weeks, got depressed that i was missing out on something bigger and i was not "whole" or "complete" without God in my life.
that didn't last though. i realised that inner peace and contentment doesn't necessarily have to come with the belief of a God. it has to do with understanding yourself and finding peace within (hence called inner peace).
so existence without a God is depressing only if you let yourself believe that you are deprived or missing something in life.
That sounds like another way of saying you don't like the idea of significant things existing without something causing them to exist. As an INTJ, where does your mind wander when you go backwards one more step in the causation chain?
Or when you go one step outside, wondering why the causation chain itself exists…?
Ultimately you will always arrive at something that exists for no reason (God or no God)—namely everything there is altogether. There is nothing other than everything there is by definition, meaning there is nothing that could have caused everything there is.
I don’t know about depressing, but it is actually fairly self-evident. It couldn’t possibly be any other way…
Ool added to this post, 3 minutes and 43 seconds later...
someone once told me that not believing in a God meant that you had nothing to fall back on. kind of like "if all else fails, at least God still loves you" and how you had someone you could confide your problems to and place your absolute trust in. also that you would never feel lonely if you believed in the Christian God because he's always there to look after you.
Well, in a causeless, infinite Universe you always have immortality to fall back on. You can comfort yourself by the fact that no matter what happens, you’ll survive, and even if life is shitty right now, eventually things are bound to change, given an indefinite amount of time…
And even if things are so bad that you’d rather be dead, it’s not as if you had a choice…
beverly penn
05-25-2008, 11:04 PM
I honestly don't care whether or not there's a god. I don't believe in an afterlife - the lack of logic surrounding the idea bothers me a lot.
I have a religious feeling, though, about science, math, and nature. There is beauty that we can see, feel, and understand, and it is an incredible thing. I don't know why the world without a deity depresses people...purpose is where you find it. It is not the ultimate purpose that the human ego would like to come upon some day, but an everyday sort of purpose. that's what i have found, at any rate.
Beery Swine
05-26-2008, 06:05 AM
Many of those who are truly happy are in an induced state of happiness based on their faith that God will forgive them for all the good they did in life. The ones that focus on the bad confess their sins and end up happy anyway. Keeping people scared that they never do the "right" thing is actually a relief for some because at the very least they know what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Suicide is only applicable in certain cases for all the major religions. It is condemed by Christianity. I think "long for it" goes under desire, greed, and impatience all of which are not virtues.
Here's what I think of that "happiness":
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw
It would probably be easier and more economical to invest in some heroin.
On the "right/wrong" part, I think you missed my point. My point was that because so many religious people (all of them) disagree on nearly everything, one becomes uncertain of who to believe, and therefore wondering when they take a decision whether it was the "right" one, and if it wasn't, how will the retribution at the hands of an angry god come about? Plus, when one thinks that divine retribution has been inflicted upon them they are still left with the question of which exact decision is being punished.
On suicide, the fact that it is prohibited does not stop one from fantasizing about it, obsessing over it, or even holding a knife one's wrist ready to take the plunge, somehow rationalizing why its acceptable to go through with.
If human society lasts long enough and isn't taken over totally by some theocracy or equally dogmatic secular faction *cough* communism, the term "religious" will go the way of the term "astrologer" and "alchemist."
vaguely dissatisfied
05-26-2008, 09:24 AM
Depression is experienced by theists and atheists alike. The rain falls on both the believer and the non-believer.
Here's what I think of that "happiness":
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw
It would probably be easier and more economical to invest in some heroin.
On the "right/wrong" part, I think you missed my point. My point was that because so many religious people (all of them) disagree on nearly everything, one becomes uncertain of who to believe, and therefore wondering when they take a decision whether it was the "right" one, and if it wasn't, how will the retribution at the hands of an angry god come about? Plus, when one thinks that divine retribution has been inflicted upon them they are still left with the question of which exact decision is being punished.
On suicide, the fact that it is prohibited does not stop one from fantasizing about it, obsessing over it, or even holding a knife one's wrist ready to take the plunge, somehow rationalizing why its acceptable to go through with.
If human society lasts long enough and isn't taken over totally by some theocracy or equally dogmatic secular faction *cough* communism, the term "religious" will go the way of the term "astrologer" and "alchemist."
You seem to be attacking religion more than staying on topic. Lol...
A drunk man is generally happier than a sober man. That is my point.
You're answering from the INTJ perspective. I'm answering from the religiously pious perspective. An INTJ would question the rules and attempt to rationalize them him/herself. A religiously pious man would not question the rules and would probably disassociate himself from sin altogether.
There are different ways for a religiously pious man to interpret a guide for life.
1) If it does not say anything against it, then I can do it.
2) I can only do what it says I should do.
Most people go with the 1st because it has much more leeway. Thus "right" and "wrong" remain extremely vague. I'm guessing that is your point. A person who previously followed interpretation 2 always has interpretation 1 to hold them steady and keep them from getting depressed that he/she sinned. The only case where a religious person would get depressed would be if he/she directly broke a rule. Even then, he/she is still being blessed ---
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
-Jesus
SerialPsychosis
05-26-2008, 02:33 PM
From my experience, no it isn't at all depressing. In fact, life became a lot less complicated and contradictory afterwards.
I was raised in a very religious family... two grandfathers being priests, dinners with bishops, summer bible school- however at the tender age of seven I started noticing major contradictions in the biblical texts, and some seriously strange rules (if you read the bible cover to cover you'll know what I'm talking about). Also, another problem I had was that a vast majority of my questions were being answered with "Have faith!".
Then, I ended up in the hospital a few times, my condition turning for the worse despite prayer circles and healing sessions and layings of hands...
After researching the religion I was in, and multiple other religions, and historical paths of wars started as a result (and noticing the same trends in both the past and the present)- I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't something I wanted to be a part of. None of it made any sense whatsoever, there was no real evidence other than "faith" to back any of these wild claims up, No rhyme or reason to any rules, So much corruption and contradiction... so I turned my back on the faith- am no longer recognized by much of my family and took up a life of Atheism.
Like a few others before me have said, I honestly feel a life -with- a god is far more depressing than one without.
zoophilia
05-26-2008, 11:14 PM
only if your life is shitty and you see no way out of it (which is probably why escapism into religiousity occured in the first place)
Beery Swine
05-27-2008, 09:18 AM
You seem to be attacking religion more than staying on topic. Lol...
A drunk man is generally happier than a sober man. That is my point.
You're answering from the INTJ perspective. I'm answering from the religiously pious perspective. An INTJ would question the rules and attempt to rationalize them him/herself. A religiously pious man would not question the rules and would probably disassociate himself from sin altogether.
There are different ways for a religiously pious man to interpret a guide for life.
1) If it does not say anything against it, then I can do it.
2) I can only do what it says I should do.
Most people go with the 1st because it has much more leeway. Thus "right" and "wrong" remain extremely vague. I'm guessing that is your point. A person who previously followed interpretation 2 always has interpretation 1 to hold them steady and keep them from getting depressed that he/she sinned. The only case where a religious person would get depressed would be if he/she directly broke a rule. Even then, he/she is still being blessed ---
Alright, fair enough. I still don't think that its at all comforting, but all I have to go on is my own experience. Then again I wasn't thinking about the liberal hippie religions that think everyone gets into heaven. I'll concede the point.
Skylla
06-14-2008, 11:59 PM
the thought of total atheism is something too depressing for me to accept. i like to think i replace "faith" with "hope," if that makes any sense.
I suppose it can be. Reminds me of my co-worker's belief that there's no life after death. She believes we die, and that's it. She believes we have no souls. Also, she thinks people are inherently bad, or evil. Now, that's a depressing thought.
Brutananadilewski
06-15-2008, 06:16 AM
I suppose it can be. Reminds me of my co-worker's belief that there's no life after death. She believes we die, and that's it. She believes we have no souls. Also, she thinks people are inherently bad, or evil. Now, that's a depressing thought.
Why would that be depressing?
Skylla
06-15-2008, 01:51 PM
Why would that be depressing?
To answer your question precisely, I have to explain my beliefs on what constitutes good and evil, I suppose. Since I am in no mood to chain myself to my laptop for the next x-amount of mins., I'll summarize: for me, it's depressing to believe that humankind is inherently evil, as I believe humankind is neither inherently "good" nor "evil." Instead, I maintain that humans simply "are."
f3nr1l
06-16-2008, 12:52 AM
I am of the tendency to think that for some, believing in no superior power-- that is to say, no specific individual god, just nothing above us-- would be depressing. To many, religion gives meaning and understanding and rules. There is a tendency among some to seek constant guidance and there is a tendency among even more to seek constant meaning. So, for many people, gods and such would give them reason to live, meaning to life, and a code to follow. An afterlife of sorts gives people hope that they will see the ones they miss someday, and that whatever hardships they endure, it will be worth it in the end. Without a deity to make that, I can't think of a case where an afterlife exists, and that would make some people morose, as well.
Personally, I find there no depressing concepts in the idea. I personally do not believe that, to any empirical or discernible level, one exists. I'm not sad about it, I'm actually quite pleased. For the same reason people go to a religion (presumably with holy texts), I relish in the opposite. If there was, then my life would have predestined meaning. I would be what I am and everything I go through, everything negative, was planned and made certain to happen. I have no true free will and no real freedom; I'd be subservient to something or other's will. That depresses me. The idea that something out there has divine and definite purpose for me depresses me, not the opposite.
What does depress me is the idea that after someone dies, they are gone. That is something very, very comforting about most religions. This bothers me, and I hate the idea of it. Death terrifies me because I don't know what, if anything (and I think it holds nothing), will result from it. I hate uncertainties in my life, especially very significant ones. What I hate the most is that other people will miss me, and will continue to live on, and have to cope with me not being around. That depresses me. I still rather have that then a predetermined life and predetermined success, though; I rather be able to have free will for a short time than eternity being controlled.
sam988
06-16-2008, 01:05 AM
I don't think that not believing in god is depressing. Just believe in something else, something that exists, and you're fine again.
Sara27
06-16-2008, 03:00 AM
I'm not depressed as long as I take my meds :).
Nexus
06-17-2008, 10:11 AM
I used to be a very strong-believing Christian. Specifically, I was a reformed Christian apologist. I went to a baptist church and actively engaged in debates with people over the existence of God. Over time my faith began to deteriorate and eventually I became an Atheist. All I can say is that I'm happier as an Atheist than I ever was as a God-fearing Christian. It restricted me, burdened me, depressed me, and gave me false hope. In the end I realized that I had no reason to continue convincing myself it was true, and my atheism has made me a stronger person. I feel I'm better equipped to deal with my issues and have also gained a better and fuller understanding of the world.
Death is something I've come to terms with and am no longer afraid of. The idea of there being nothing after death doesn't bother me, and in a way it's a comfort. I would hate to have to live forever; It would be hell in and of itself.
So is it depressing not believing in God? Absolutely not.
comet
06-17-2008, 11:51 AM
my own bent is to agree with that statement, if i had to pigeonhole myself i would say i'm a deist-leaning agnostic.
the thought of total atheism is something too depressing for me to accept. i like to think i replace "faith" with "hope," if that makes any sense.
It sort of makes sense to me. Just make sure religion is kept out of the equation OK??
jesse
06-17-2008, 01:20 PM
To some it is oblivion and unthinkable that there is no superior being(s) controlling the world, while others could care less. Somehow this makes it seem as if there can only be one correct answer. I disagree with the notion that there can only be a single truth and a single correct answer. This world is too big and too varied to only have a single set of norms to view the world through.
I couldn't answer whether deities exist or not, but if they do, they are doing a terrible job in managing this world, and whatever other worlds might exist elsewhere is the cosmos.
zibber
06-22-2008, 09:38 AM
What's initially depressing is realizing all values are fictional.
That sums it up, doesn't it?
comet
06-23-2008, 01:29 PM
I don't see existence without god as depressing.
I see it as an opportunity. Instead of being frightened of upsetting someone or something I can live my life in the relative comfort knowing what I do and how I do it is just me. I'm happy to own my life without a personal God.
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