Is there something inherently wrong with this?

[OneBadMother]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?

[Evalis]

No, there is nothing 'inherently' wrong with that, but that isn't going to stop rest of society from expecting certain social connections to have a given emotional effect on a person. Keep in mind that 80-90% of the population is very likely to simply accept the way they are 'supposed' to think instead of attempting to think for themselves..

Answering the second part of your question though.. I have precisely the same line of thinking in this regard.. but it is less because my parents were both poor rolemodels, and more because my sense of morality and justice is far to strong to allow anyone to be provided with special treatment - emotionally or otherwise. My distance is purposeful in that it allows me to treat everyone with the same level of respect, without making special consideration for family or friends, and without descriminating strangers from anything I might be able to offer anyone else.

But.. this pisses off my friends sometimes.. and it usually prevents me from getting 'close' to anyone.. whatever that means >.>

[Selly]

...and more because my sense of morality and justice is far to strong to allow anyone to be provided with special treatment - emotionally or otherwise. My distance is purposeful in that it allows me to treat everyone with the same level of respect, without making special consideration for family or friends, and without descriminating strangers from anything I might be able to offer anyone else.

But.. this pisses off my friends sometimes.. and it usually prevents me from getting 'close' to anyone.. whatever that means >.>

I agree, and I do the same thing to a certain level. I think I confuse people. I know I sometimes confuse myself....

[Firelie]

Sometimes I think about the deaths of my parents just to make myself sad and thereby remind myself that I do love them.

[The Rose]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?Absolutely.
I hated my parents' guts for most of my childhood and young adulthood.
I didn't care one flip about them.
I used to fantacize about killing my father.

Does that make me a psychopath??!!

As I have gotten older
(and forgiven my parents)
I have become more keenly aware of death and the sorrow it brings.
I had to learn it though.
It didn't come naturally.

[Guido]

I remember contemplating suicide when I was 10-11 ish because of all the crap my mom has put me through. But then I decided that if I did that, she 'would win' and promised myself never to do it. I'm sure I thought about killing her too, but I realized pretty quickly that it wasn't feasible.

Now that I'm older, I'm pretty distant with my mom. She pulls this hurt puppy crap on me now that I don't call her enough and what not, which I don't have much respect for. I respect my dad a lot, but love would be a strange word to use. I guess I would be upset if either of them died, especially my dad. I guess that's the best I can relate to loving your parents :o

[The Rose]

Respect is the highest word of regard I can use toward someone.
If I respect and admire them, they are really something special.

[rwyatt365]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?

"inherently wrong", no. Socially unacceptable, yes.

I feel the same way about members of my family. I remeber as a child, upon the death of my grandfather, my sister chiding me because I dared to PLAY on the day of his funeral. I remeber thinking, "What's the big deal, he's gone. Why shuold that stop me from playing?!"

I'm not close to my two sisters, nor my mother or father. It's not that anyone did anything particularly bad to me. I just don't have any connection to any of them.

[mikey]

I'd say the idea of loving ones parents unconditionally is an absurd prospect at best. From reading others replies, I can see I'm not the only one with a considerably twisted parental-induced childhood. Mostly because my father is a sociopath and my mother a chronic pleaser. The best event that occurred was when they divorced 4 and a half years ago. Since then I haven't spoken to my father once. In conclusion I think 'love' is a subjective concept in respects to all of its forms.

[deicruxified]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?
most intj's are detached... people think we're cold but then that's the way things happen. period.

a lot of people thought i'm an insensitive and disrespectful. of course everyone expects that following your parents is a sign of respect but then again, we are also humans making decisions not only just our parents children. i have settled this with my parents no matter how bloody and brutally honest i seem. i told then i need respect as well which is true coz the tendency of most parents is to control their children's lives. i told them,

"what you think is good for me, is just your dreams. i should know better coz i own my life and my life will never be indebted to you since i just happen to be your kid by chance. if i follow your dreams and make, if you die what will become of me coz this is not what i want?"

so there... my mom stopped yacking

[jtskinner]

Emotions are just your brain responding to stimulus, emotions are an illusion and interfere with critical thinking and true logical thinking. In saying this, I do feel emotion, I do love my parents and I would feel sad if they died. There is nothing wrong with anyone not loving their parents.

[thegnat]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?

No, it's not inherently wrong.

However I do think that deaths in the family especially if you're close with them will rock your emotions no matter how rock-solid you think you are. You might not show it visibly but it does get you.

But I have certainly felt the same way. And actually kind of still do.

[Raven Queen]

Come to think of it, I don't love anyone in my life right now, and I don't think I ever did. I doubt I'd feel anything if someone I know died - don't think it would affect me much emotionally, even if it were someone I'm relatively close to. Meh. I'm such a heartless bitch.

I'd say this is unusual in an Asian society, where you're expected to love your family unconditionally and all that. But who cares what they think? *:P

[Epicurus]

I to feel the same. I prefer rationality before emotionality completely as the first is more useful for the important things wich manages to get the retardness of people in place and the world spinning. So there can't be anything wrong with it, its just that people aren't as rational and logical always.

[chocky]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?

Absolutely.
I hated my parents' guts for most of my childhood and young adulthood.
I didn't care one flip about them.
I used to fantacize about killing my father.

Does that make me a psychopath??!

As I have gotten older
(and forgiven my parents)
I have become more keenly aware of death and the sorrow it brings.
I had to learn it though.
It didn't come naturally.


So good to hear I'm not alone in this - in any of this less than socially acceptable issue.

I too have wondered if there was something inherently wrong with my feelings (or lack thereof). Several years back some pentecostal offshoot preacher even tried to convince me I was literally possessed because a human being naturally loved their parents no matter what bad things those parents did. (And it wasn't even as if my parents were that abusive - but i was a very sensitive child.)

That preacher proved himself to be a control hungry manipulator attempting to collect a docile flock, but for a time there, I half believed him. Truthfully, the social norms simply don't fit all of us - we are different and I'm glad of it!

[OneBadMother]

I was pretty worried posting this topic, but now I see it's somewhat baseless. Well, if it is cause for concern, at least I'm not utterly alone in my thinking. :P I know that any other forum'd get a million posts along the lines of "WTF is wrong with you?!111"

I've never been someone who feels emotions strongly most of the time, either. I'm stuck in a kind of neutral state a lot of the time. I've sometimes found myself almost trying to simulate anger in order to keep the people around me from thinking I have no emotions whatsoever. NFs always try to find some way to bring strong emotions out of me. They should really learn that it's a terrible idea to unleash said emotions.

[TruorTupnm]

No, I don't think that there is something inherently incorrect about employing terminology differently, if that works with the question. What feelings I work with are similar to those already expressed by others. I don't love anyone. Sounds scary.

I've had some family members that I enjoyed die and wasn't especially devastated, never cried or dwelt on memories.

Towards parents, neither of mine are dead yet. I don't believe that I will especially miss them. My evil father pretty much leaves me alone and doesn't talk much when he seeks me out. My evil mom lady attempts to employ guilt on me. I have developed an immunity.

Towards contemplating killing them, ::) although I am less a fan of my evil father, I never thought about killing him, merely wished to be left alone. I only thought about how I could kill my evil mom lady after she kept frustrating me by being so horrible with money and always taking all of mine and promising to pay me back. I could never come up with the perfect murder, so I never got around to it. ::)

[rwyatt365]

I was pretty worried posting this topic, but now I see it's somewhat baseless. Well, if it is cause for concern, at least I'm not utterly alone in my thinking. :P I know that any other forum'd get a million posts along the lines of "WTF is wrong with you?!111"

I've never been someone who feels emotions strongly most of the time, either. I'm stuck in a kind of neutral state a lot of the time. I've sometimes found myself almost trying to simulate anger in order to keep the people around me from thinking I have no emotions whatsoever. NFs always try to find some way to bring strong emotions out of me. They should really learn that it's a terrible idea to unleash said emotions.
Nah, you're not alone in that line of thought or other similar thoughts. Acceptance seems to be a hallmark in this forum (thankfully!).

Generally, I have three emotional states; mild amusement, pissed off, and "you really don't want to know". SF's seem to bring out the worse in me. Like you, I constantly am telling those types not to "go there" 'cause they really don't want to see what comes out - it won't be pretty. :scared: [smiley=skull.gif] [smiley=knife.gif]

[rocksteady]

Sometimes I think about the deaths of my parents just to make myself sad and thereby remind myself that I do love them.

I do this occasionally as well, except I continue and follow the thinking into what I would inherit from the death, what life would be like etc. This line of thinking tends to make me feel guilty and a bit shallow. I think I love my mother, but I honestly have no real concept of what love is, nor do I desire achieving it. I have great difficulty in identifying my emotions at all, I tend to only be aware of them in times of great despair or anger.

When I envision my personal future, and think about marriage, it is always about finding someone I can respect and relate to, not "love".

[Sylvanus]

I have a strong T, and while my I do have good parents, I have never had an emotional bond with them. I have never had anybody close to me die, so I may be unpleasantly surprised if I ever find out I do have emotion if it happens. I am mostly detached from emotion, unless sarcasm is an emotion (?).

I recall when I was younger my dad wanted me to help him install something in the electrical box (live electricity and everything). I kept thinking "I don't want to be here, hopefully that screwdriver will slip and he'll die and I don't have to help anymore". Then I realized that if he died my mom would have a difficult time paying the bills and we would probably lose all the nice stuff we had. Never once did it cross my mind that I might miss him.

I'm not even that attached to my wife, I realize more and more I am with her merely for pragmatic reasons. I think the only person I would miss if they died is my 3 year old son, but I'm sure I'd get over it.

[Zilal]

No, heh, if you don't feel love, you don't feel love. However, it's a nice feeling, and it might be worth trying to achieve it... we tend to think of love as something automatic or romantic, but it's often a function of performing kindly actions. That is, if we act as though we love people, the feeling will often develop.

[Pinkie]

I can't say I really know quite how you feel, because I really, really love and get on with my parents, but in principle, I get you. You don't choose your parents, so there is no onus on you to love them, just as I don't really think there's an obligation for a parent to love a child (except that they chose to create the child - if it turns into a little jerk when it gets older they don't have to love it) - just to care for it and make sure it grows up as well as possible.

[Mr Zip]

It took me a long time to get an equal relationship with my father. I think he was INTJ too looking back, and we never saw eye to eye untill I grew up and became a man, and then he became my best friend. When he died, it was the hardest and worst moment in my life.

It makes me wonder if he'd have died before we got to the point of mutual respect how I'd have felt. I know he always loved me, but I didnt always love him the same.

Tough call. Im to the point in my life that I'm more accepting of how I feel and try not to fight it if I think something is inherently wrong or socially different about how I feel. I just accept it, and it either becomes OK, or it passes. I don't know if you can call it right or wrong, it just is what it is.

[Santana28]

i've never loved my parents at all. growing up, i had a sadistic abusive INTJ father who did his best to make my life miserable. My ISFP mother, on the other hand, was solely devoted to him in such a way that i soon rejected her outright. Very early on we had your typical relationship, but our personalities are so drastically different i soom came to realize that all of her praise and "love" was meaningless because she really truly directed it towards me because of *what* i was and not *who* i was. i never had the opportunity to develop any feelings for my father (and he never made any attempts to develop any towards me) at all except pure hatred, but i've gotten past that now that i understand how truly pathetic he is. my mother moved out when i was 16 or 17, and my father kicked me out shortly after. and a few months after that, i moved several states away.

quite honestly - they're not a part of my life, and never have ever really been. i dont event think about them. my father and i dont talk at all, and if anything it is a short impersonal email. he's never called me, sent me a birthday card, etc... and vice versa. i try to call my mother on her birthday out of courtesy but honestly i usually forget all about it. i only hear from her when she gets drunk (she's an alcoholic) and calls me up to ask me if she was a good mother or not. i lie.

i love my family and i'm loyal to them and i will help them out in any way i possibly can, but i dont have a "relationship" with anyone in my family with the exception of the ones that genuinely tool interest in me and were there for me not simply because i was related, but because they liked me and accepted me despite our numerous differences.

i'm an only child.

[Octavianus Caesar]

I find myself detached from people. Where if i am friends with someone i can easily walk away and not feel anything (if it is just life moving on).

[Scorne]

I find myself detached from people. Where if i am friends with someone i can easily walk away and not feel anything (if it is just life moving on).

I down-heartedly agree with you, I've recently (The past 4 years) lost all 4 of my grand-parents which my family saw around 6 times a year. When I went to each of their funerals I felt a hint of sorrow but it wasn't compared to anyone else in the room.

Generally, I'm a very cold person. I recently broke up with around 20 close friends (not in a bad way) but I guess I wasn't close enough to them as they didn't text, phone, IM or come talk to me ever since (around 2 months ago). Sometimes I feel as though I shouldn't even need friends but then I read blogs and books with teenagers/young adults that have basements and LAN parties which sound really enticing but I've never found a friend that has the same or vaguely the same interests as me.

If anything, I crave a cycling partner but it's so rare to find one my age that can be dedicated and travel the country on a bike.

Oh well, one does dream.

[Bossy Mom]

When I was a child, I thought if anything happened to my mother I couldn't live anymore. When I was in high school, I thought if anything ever happened to any of my brothers (all six younger) I couldn't live anymore. They are all fine. Now I think if anything happened to my daughter I couldn't live anymore (and I'm not sure I could). Just because we're INTJs doesn't mean we're sociopaths.

[Santana28]

i'm INTENSELY emotional and attached to the rare people in my life who i have a genuine connection with. to a fault - i would do anything for them. but family is a whole 'nother animal... these aren't people you choose to be around. these aren't people who earn your love, or respect. they just expect it because they are related to you, and proximity. that really offends my sensibilities... i can't handle when people call me rude and demand respect from me they have done nothing to earn. and sadly, thats most of my family. but i am still the first person to send them money when i have it, and step in and help out when a problem arises. and - this goes for anyone, friend or otherwise - if someone asks me for help i always gladly give it, and not for any reason other than the fact that i have been asked to help. people with agendas i despise more than anyone.

[Zaclor]

I agree with you, but on one point. Those who have choosen to become my enemies. They I will not aid, nor give comfort. I may hasten there down fall.

[Octavianus Caesar]

I down-heartedly agree with you, I've recently (The past 4 years) lost all 4 of my grand-parents which my family saw around 6 times a year. When I went to each of their funerals I felt a hint of sorrow but it wasn't compared to anyone else in the room.

Generally, I'm a very cold person. I recently broke up with around 20 close friends (not in a bad way) but I guess I wasn't close enough to them as they didn't text, phone, IM or come talk to me ever since (around 2 months ago). Sometimes I feel as though I shouldn't even need friends but then I read blogs and books with teenagers/young adults that have basements and LAN parties which sound really enticing but I've never found a friend that has the same or vaguely the same interests as me.

If anything, I crave a cycling partner but it's so rare to find one my age that can be dedicated and travel the country on a bike.

Oh well, one does dream.

With myself, I find I am not "cold" but I am content with myself. The idea of needing someone for the sake of needing them is foriegn to me.

Also I tend to "pick" my friends with my insticnt, I will pick a friend because there is something about them, there is no need, nor anything they "can do for me" but I pick them because i want to, and if life moves on, I do not, generally feel anything, other than the occasional I miss them for the good times.

But at the same time, if someone lies to me, or puts somethng between me and my brother, they will see a very cold shoulder from and a coldness that will freeze hell.

I stayed with two cousins and they said i could stay with them for X amount of money, then when i paid them they would not accept it (it was from my grandmother, it was because of that they would not accept the money) and then when my brother moved up, he (my cousin) told me one thing and my brother another, and when i put two and two together I ripped into them for it, pretty much telling them stay away from me.

But at the same time I can be a very loyal person to those I choose and very indifferent to everyone else.

[Antares]

Come to think of it, I don't love anyone in my life right now, and I don't think I ever did. I doubt I'd feel anything if someone I know died - don't think it would affect me much emotionally, even if it were someone I'm relatively close to. Meh. I'm such a heartless bitch.

I'd say this is unusual in an Asian society, where you're expected to love your family unconditionally and all that. But who cares what they think? :P

True. That's why I never bothered to tell my parents every time they ask for a kiss (or complain that their friends' kids would always kiss their parents goodbye before they leave). I think Asians were supposed to revere their parents and take their words as authority (no, in the strictest sense, questioning is not allowed).

I think I've only truly loved one person in my life, but have been bitterly disappointed. Now, I'm detached from most, if not all relationships in my life. When my maternal grandmother died 7 years ago, I was the only one at the funeral (besides my younger cousin because he doesn't really understand what happened. He was 3) who didn't cry, yet I spent more time with her than my other cousins did. They all wept bitterly, while I was merely disappointed and unhappy, but mainly apathetic. I thought there was something wrong with me; I didn't feel anything.

I have tried to feel, trust me. I have always believed that feeling would make me more 'complete', as opposed to the almost empty life I'm leading right now.

[Santana28]

I agree with you, but on one point. Those who have choosen to become my enemies. They I will not aid, nor give comfort. I may hasten there down fall.

thats interesting. personally, in my mind i have no enemies. people that dislike me passionately at the very least know me enough to hate me, and i respect that. if my worst enemy comes to me asking for help, i will gladly give it.

to me, the worst punishment i can give is to ignore them. i will go about my lives as if they never existed. but in the event that they come back, i always have open arms. however, if it appears there are ulterior motives which are intended to harm me, of course i do not oblige them.

[Jgib5328]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?

I wouldn't care if most of my family died, I don't have much attachment. I'd be upset if either my mother or father died though. It is strange that you don't have any emotional attachment to your parents though. Also, you don't know how you'd actually react when one of your parents or family members died. You may think that you'd look upon the incident with indifference, but you could be completely wrong and when the time comes you could feel deep emotional pain.

[Race]

Growing up, I was an outcast from the rest of the kids. I was smarter, taller, and much stronger. So they viewed me as strange. I was chunky and that didn't help. I learned to depend on myself and to find ways to have fun as an individual. But now that I'm in high school, my brain is respected. As is my height and strength. But still I feel like an outcast because, as my teachers put it, I'm better.

There is a point to this, and it's that being taught from a young age how to function with minimal social and emotional connections has led me to be "cold" towards the world. Now cold is not to be confused with "evil" or psychopathic/ sociopathic. If my friends or family were to suddenly die in a horrible accident, I would most likely not feel anything. Of course there would be drastic changes in my life, including where I live and attend school .

Do I need therapy?

[Santana28]

I wouldn't care if most of my family died, I don't have much attachment. I'd be upset if either my mother or father died though. It is strange that you don't have any emotional attachment to your parents though. Also, you don't know how you'd actually react when one of your parents or family members died. You may think that you'd look upon the incident with indifference, but you could be completely wrong and when the time comes you could feel deep emotional pain.

i've had family members die that i didnt even bat an eye to. but 2 years ago someone very dear to me died - and he wasn't even a blood relation. my paternal grandparents divorced when i was 2 or 3, and my grandmother began dating a fellow for the next 13 or so years who i considered 100% to be my grandpa. they eventually broke up and he moved away, but honestly i respected him for it because he was trying to make a happy life for himself whereas my grandma was more concerned with leaving me and the rest of the family behind. i only saw him one time after that. he died almost exactly 2 years ago, and i very frequently think of him. he played a very important role in my life and even though he wasn't the best person in the world, he was never afraid to do things his own way without regard to what anyone else thought about it. he loved me more than even his own kids and grandkids. at the funeral, one of his kids told me that they found him on his desk with a pen in hand and a piece of paper and one of the last letters i had sent him. it looked as if he were going to write me. i'll never know what he intended to say. while my family was all upset that he didnt leave me anything financially, i could care less. while none of my family (except my grandma) showed up to the funeral because they disliked him, i came and i stayed the entire time and i went back after everyone had left. he was an asshole to everyone but me, and i loved him for that. he was always the father figure that i never had in my father, and he treated me with respect.

i'm perfectly capable of emotional attachments to people who mean much to me. it is unfortunate that most people aren't worth caring for.

[Colette]

If I ever said to anyone that I didn't love my parents, they would think I was a psychopath. Same if I said that I'm not emotionally affected by the deaths of people in my family. Maybe I just haven't lost anyone close enough, and I do respect my parents sometimes and value their input on things, it's just that I don't think love is really the right word. How about you guys?

No not unusual. I can honestly say I didn't 'love' my father (he is now dead - died 06), and the main reason was that he made it impossible for me to do so, by the things he did and said. I had some affection for him, but little respect, or love. I'm OK with that - love and respect are earned (even in family members), not demanded or expected as of right..

[Santana28]

No not unusual. I can honestly say I didn't 'love' my father (he is now dead - died 06), and the main reason was that he made it impossible for me to do so, by the things he did and said. I had some affection for him, but little respect, or love. I'm OK with that - love and respect are earned (even in family members), not demanded or expected as of right..

well, people for whatever reason believe that "love" is instantaneous for relatives. it isnt. my problem is that i never had the opportunity to develop a relationship with my family in the first place - so to act like love was there now is well, just an act.

[Jgib5328]

Growing up, I was an outcast from the rest of the kids. I was smarter, taller, and much stronger. So they viewed me as strange. I was chunky and that didn't help. I learned to depend on myself and to find ways to have fun as an individual. But now that I'm in high school, my brain is respected. As is my height and strength. But still I feel like an outcast because, as my teachers put it, I'm better.

There is a point to this, and it's that being taught from a young age how to function with minimal social and emotional connections has led me to be "cold" towards the world. Now cold is not to be confused with "evil" or psychopathic/ sociopathic. If my friends or family were to suddenly die in a horrible accident, I would most likely not feel anything. Of course there would be drastic changes in my life, including where I live and attend school .

Do I need therapy?

Out of curiosity, how tall are you?

[yondyr]

My parents were conventional small minded people... I was probably a disappointment, not coming through with demonstrations of attachment and happy to live half way round the world from them.
I thank whatever I'm an INTJ with attendant detachment. Losing two sons to schizophrenia tested me. I found I was strong, and nothing rocks my core. Grieving I did alone..then moved on, never looking back.

[Santana28]

My parents were conventional small minded people... I was probably a disappointment, not coming through with demonstrations of attachment and happy to live half way round the world from them.
I thank whatever I'm an INTJ with attendant detachment. Losing two sons to schizophrenia tested me. I found I was strong, and nothing rocks my core. Grieving I did alone..then moved on, never looking back.

wow, i'm sorry.

i've always wondered if there is a link to schizophrenia somewhere in our genes... my mother is very schizo-typal and i've often wondered about myself.

[yondyr]

There seems to be a genetic component, probably predisposition given certain factors in alignment. Adolescence coupled with use of mood altering substances, plus that hereditary factor.Who knew? No-one then, just scare tactics with little research, and ultimately, blame the mother/nurture. Oh dear, off topic again. lol ok to bring it back, detachment from parents has many causes, not the least being INTJ. There!.

[vkut79]

From a biological point of view, it is "wrong" that you don't love your parents. From that perspective, its also wrong that you don't have your emotions well developed in the first place.

Family doesn't "earn" your love. That's pretty ridiculous honestly. If your family has to somehow "earn" your love, then thats not even the same kind of love. People are meant to love their relatives unconditionally. (In evolutionary psychology I think its called kin altruism or something).

Of course the biological perspective doesn't mean ultimate "right" or "wrong", since there is no such thing in the first place.

But I do think that if you honestly don't love your family, that is very unfortunate for you because love for your family can provide a great source of strength when other things in life don't go your way. On the other hand, it can also be a great source of weakness when they leave you or die. In any case, its a big part of life for most people and its sad that a lot of extreme INTJs apparently miss out on it. As an INTJ I am much less emotional than other people but I am glad that I at least am not so extreme as to not love my family at least somewhat.

[yondyr]

Unconditional love for a group of people for no other reason than being related seems illogical. Particularly when much of the angst, abuse, disrespect directed at one from an early age comes from that direction. Were the conditions ideal from that early age, then the loved ones would have earned love, but it's far from common. Which comment in no way indicates I had such treatment, we were just too disparate for me to care.

[Santana28]

i do "love" my family in an altruistic sense. i'm just saying that the emotional attachment never really developed in some instances, for many reasons which weren't entirely my doing. my father is a very cold INTJ himself and was never interested in a "familial" type relationship, and my mother's emotions were so irrational and need-based that i rejected them as flawed. do they love me? they probably think they do. but they are both self-loathing people, and when you loathe yourself... what do you think they feel towards someone that represents the summation of their lives?

[OneBadMother]

I agree, yondyr. My parents can be friends sometimes, and I'm glad of that. But my mom often tries to imply that my family, and specifically herself, are the only people who really know me and really care about me, and that I should feel obligated to show love and affection to my family because I couldn't choose them. This is of course combined with a reminder of my position as an investment and of how much worse it could be for me. The worst part is that since my mom is an ENTP with extremes in everything but E, she thinks that she's being perfectly rational and logical and that I'm the one letting my emotions cloud my judgement.

[Sylvanus]

I agree, yondyr. My parents can be friends sometimes, and I'm glad of that. But my mom often tries to imply that my family, and specifically herself, are the only people who really know me and really care about me, and that I should feel obligated to show love and affection to my family because I couldn't choose them. This is of course combined with a reminder of my position as an investment and of how much worse it could be for me. The worst part is that since my mom is an ENTP with extremes in everything but E, she thinks that she's being perfectly rational and logical and that I'm the one letting my emotions cloud my judgement.

So she's trying to guilt you into loving her?

[yondyr]

lol and that reminds me, my father was such a model of public rectitude and private tyranny my two brothers and I were glad to be gone as soon as possible and when he died leaving his estate to the Salvation Army, we laughed and didn't care. Someone benefitted!

[Cookabara]

Manipulative overprotective ENTF father and INTJ mother. Never asked myself the question if I love them or not until I had my own children. It could be triggered by the hormones during the birth, I experienced what is probably love - a strong irrational attachment, and readiness to sacrifice myself for the babies. Well, no one can convince me that this is the feeling they experience towards their parents. Hence I didn't expect my children to love me reciprocally either. Love is for the parents, not for the children, this is my theory.

[vkut79]

Manipulative overprotective ENTF father and INTJ mother. Never asked myself the question if I love them or not until I had my own children. It could be triggered by the hormones during the birth, I experienced what is probably love - a strong irrational attachment, and readiness to sacrifice myself for the babies. Well, no one can convince me that this is the feeling they experience towards their parents. Hence I didn't expect my children to love me reciprocally either. Love is for the parents, not for the children, this is my theory.

Well, actually children love their parents very much when they are young. You probably loved them to you when you were young. The change comes when you become a teenager - at that point you are mature enough to be independent, and you don't need your parents so much anymore, so you stop loving them as much. When you are older, your love for your parents is not "biological" so to speak. You love them because you are grateful, because you have known them all your life, because you like them as people, etc. Its perfectly normal (biologically) to not love your parents much when you are an adult.

It all makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. You are attached to people when it helps ensure the survival of your genes. This happens due to hormones that are released at various points in your life. When you are a baby, you absolutely need your parents in order to survive, so you develop a love attachment with them. When you have children, they represent the future of your genes, so you love them also to ensure that they (and your genes) survive. This is why the young parent-young child bond is by far the strongest love possible. Sexual love is different because it is based on reproduction, its more complicated. With evolution in mind its actually expected that you love your parents a lot less, because it is now your time to leave them and have your own children, and this is harder to do if you remain emotionally attached to your parents. There are still some minor reasons why you would love them, but they are not as great as when you are very young.

[Santana28]

Well, actually children love their parents very much when they are young. You probably loved them to you when you were young. The change comes when you become a teenager - at that point you are mature enough to be independent, and you don't need your parents so much anymore, so you stop loving them as much. When you are older, your love for your parents is not "biological" so to speak. You love them because you are grateful, because you have known them all your life, because you like them as people, etc. Its perfectly normal (biologically) to not love your parents much when you are an adult.

It all makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. You are attached to people when it helps ensure the survival of your genes. This happens due to hormones that are released at various points in your life. When you are a baby, you absolutely need your parents in order to survive, so you develop a love attachment with them. When you have children, they represent the future of your genes, so you love them also to ensure that they (and your genes) survive. This is why the young parent-young child bond is by far the strongest love possible. Sexual love is different because it is based on reproduction, its more complicated. With evolution in mind its actually expected that you love your parents a lot less, because it is now your time to leave them and have your own children, and this is harder to do if you remain emotionally attached to your parents. There are still some minor reasons why you would love them, but they are not as great as when you are very young.

i'm not really sure about your assertion that children automatically develop a love attachment towards their parents for survival purposes. some of my very earliest (3-4 years of age) memories are those of confusion over and rejection of my mother's attempts of "love." of course, you could say she was the smothering needy type and i resented that. in the earliest years my father wasn't around much, so my mother was literally the one who my survival depended on - and i still rejected it. not completely (that came later as i grew to understand more her motivating factors), but i did not assimilate it into my personality.

i have a little boy who is 3 years old. i'm not ashamed to attest to the fact that i never really became emotionally attached to him until his personality began asserting itself around a year or so of age. i love him for the person he is - not the mere fact that he is my son. i grow to love him more each and every day, but that automatic "love" attachment was not there with him, or my parents.

[Antares]

Santana: Well, it might not be the case for everyone, but I did love my parents when I was younger. My mother told me that when I was about two or three, she jokingly told me that she'd send me to the orphanage, and immediately tears started streaming down my face. Yes. She felt guilty :D There's this time when I was four or five (also according to mom) on the bus I wouldn't leave her alone and kept trying to cuddle with her. She got quite annoyed and asked me to sit in my own seat, but I whined: "But I want to be close to you." I can never say such things now, but thinking back, it was quite adorable.

[vealimi]

Well...
You should not consider as a pyscopath to my understanding.
I don't hate my parent but I don't particularly love them.
My granpa and uncle died.
Any death makes me kinda 'still' though.

[Darkmist]

I have a bond with my parents, but as to love, I've never been able to define the word. And loving because they are your parents is bull. I hate it when people (s types) tell me that parents, grandparents etc deserve respect because they are older and wiser. That's the biggest load of crap out there.

As to deaths, I've had two people close to me die and I have felt emotions but I tend to get over it quickly. Others, not close to me who have died I could care less about. And funerals are ridiculous to me. Suddenly I'm supposed to openly express emotion I feel or don't feel because a church gathering and expensive hole in the ground is the place to do it.

I don't think so.

[yondyr]

lol, Darkmist, the public mass flaunting of emotions at funerals is repulsive. Who ARE these people that love to wallow so flamboyantly - go away and mourn in private with respect.

[Theodoric]

I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread. It makes me realize that I am not alone in the way I feel toward others.

I am actually in therapy now. From my experience, it does seem to help in a way. I would suggest it, not because there is something inherently wrong with you, but because it does help you to understand the ways that others function.

I'm currently in a relationship of 3 years right now. My girlfriend is a very strong ESFJ and frankly, she confuses me. She's been confusing me and I rarely understand how my actions affect her. That's why I'm in therapy. Not because I think there is something wrong with me, but because I wish to understand how others deal with emotions and how my actions affect them.

[Haphazard]

I'm afraid of my father. To an extent, I'm also afraid of my mother, but my mother's also a lot easier to stand up to.

I don't 'respect' these people like they think I should because they haven't earned it. I can talk to my mother on the same level as me, like a friend (sometimes), but as soon as she starts making decisions over me I become scared. It doesn't help that they both think I'm mentally ill. My dad wants nothing more than to make me a medicated wreck like himself, and my mother won't listen to me sometimes because "I'm not in my right mind."

Apparently 'I'm not in my right mind' comes from respect issues. From here, I can see that disrespect for people who haven't earned it but demand it anyway is downright normal (at least among INTJs). But there's no way I can make them understand this.

And that scares me.

[eMachine]

First, thanks mjartscom for your insight and experience in this thread.

I am a detached INTJ (like many of us, it seems), but I like to think that I do have feelings, they just don't really come to me in the form of 'emotion'... yeah, that may not make any sense. I see my intuition as my way of 'feeling'.

I don't communicate and connect well with my family, my mother least of all. I was able to correctly type my father before having my parents take the test for me (ISTJ), but I was way off about my mother (ISFJ, I'd figured INTP). During my childhood, I was very attached to my mother, I can remember a time or two when I hid in the trunk of her little hatch-back car when she was about to go to work or take my older siblings somewhere. At that time I was always scared and intimidated by my father, although he was never abusive in any way.

Neither of my parents paid much attention to me or took time to talk/bond with me growing up. Whether this was because they already had adolescent and teenage children when I was born, or because they both worked all the time for hardly any money, were always in debt and stressed... I don't know, but I've forgiven them. As young as 3rd grade I began skipping school (social anxiety) and put even more stress on them and our relationship. As a teenager, I hated both of them, they made no effort to understand me, didn't affirm me in any way or acknowledge and encourage my strengths. Yes, at times I even contemplated how to kill my mother and frame someone else, usually my aunt's abusive alcoholic husband lol.

I have a good enough relationship with them now. I talk to them about my kids mostly, but nothing deep or meaningful. I do think it's more likely that I would bring up a more meaningful topic with my father if given the chance, I respect and admire him, but my mother is quite the dense/gossipy/superficial type so it's more difficult for me to admire her, but she is a very nice and caring individual deep down and will not ever deny helping me if I need her for some reason, so I do respect her.

If they died though, I don't think I would be heartbroken. Yes, I would mourn them and miss them, but (intellectually) I find it rather selfish to wish for someone to be with me on earth when they can be free of the stresses of life. My grandfather, whom I was probably closest to as a small child and love very much, had a stroke in the early morning on 9/11... my family chose to keep him on life support for about 2 months, although he was in a coma and the doctors said the machines were the only thing keeping him alive. He had told my grandmother prior that he would not want life support, but she, my mother, aunts, and uncle chose to go against that wish. I did not go to his funeral, I'm not sure why, I guess I just don't like to be the one person not sobbing, and to have to try and fake emotion. One of my aunts accused me of not loving him because I did not go.

I loved him very much, I still do... but I don't believe in mourning. I want to honor and cherish my memories of him and remember his example of a wonderful human being. I think I will feel the same way about my parents if they die. Rather than focusing on my loss, I choose to focus on what they've given me.

[vkut79]

i'm not really sure about your assertion that children automatically develop a love attachment towards their parents for survival purposes. some of my very earliest (3-4 years of age) memories are those of confusion over and rejection of my mother's attempts of "love." of course, you could say she was the smothering needy type and i resented that. in the earliest years my father wasn't around much, so my mother was literally the one who my survival depended on - and i still rejected it. not completely (that came later as i grew to understand more her motivating factors), but i did not assimilate it into my personality.

i have a little boy who is 3 years old. i'm not ashamed to attest to the fact that i never really became emotionally attached to him until his personality began asserting itself around a year or so of age. i love him for the person he is - not the mere fact that he is my son. i grow to love him more each and every day, but that automatic "love" attachment was not there with him, or my parents.

Hmmm, interesting. Then I guess my theory doesn't hold for everyone. A number of people in this thread have mentioned that they lack this sort of instinctual attachment to their parents or, as you described, to your children. I'm very surprised by this. Perhaps then some INTJs must be an exception. I am still fairly certain though that this theory holds for a large majority of the population, that the parent-child love is in large part instinctual, automatic for evolutionary biological reasons.

[Sylvanus]

I recall a time when I was young, not sure what age, but I know it was before high school. I was helping my dad install a circuit breaker into the main junction box. I wasn't doing anything useful, but he wanted me there to watch or whatever, I was never clear on my purpose when he wanted me to help him. I was bored, and didn't want to be there, I thought: "I hope he electrocutes himself and dies, then I can get out of this. But if he dies, we won't have any money without him working, that would be bad. Maybe it would be best if he didn't die." I realized years later that a "normal" person would have been concerned over the loss of a close relative, but ever the pragmatist, I cared more about what the person did for me, not who they were.

[blueback]

I think that INTJs, being rational, don't think that anyone deserves their affection without having earned it. It's like Rand said about love, unearned love is an insult to all thinking men. If you have feelings for someone they should be inspired by things that person has done, not just arbitrarily assigned.

The simple fact is that not everyone would have picked their parents had they been given the choice. INTJs are much more likely than average kids to mature beyond their own parents rather quickly. We value certain things, self-improvement, rationality, etc and if someone doesn't display those traits in quantities we expect they just don't mean much too us. They are like all the normal people we ignore every day. If you parent happens to be too much like a normal person it makes sense you wouldn't feel any more attachment to them than to a stranger. Familiarity, yes, but not necessarily love.

[eMachine]

As someone else said earlier in this thread, love is about actions... I believe this is especially true for INTJ's.

There's been a little controversy in this thread about whether or not love and affection between parents and their children is a natural biological mechanism. I'm sure that for the most part it probably is, for genetic survival. But we're really learning to overcome our natural instincts more and more now, mostly for 'selfish' reasons.

For instance, a girl in college gets pregnant and hides her pregnancy, births the child and then throws it in a dumpster because the responsibilty of having a child would get in the way of her personal goals... it's obvious that her maternal instincts are not too strong to ignore.

Also, most mothers no longer breastfeed their infants, despite (probably?) hundreds of centuries of evolution to make sure that a child would have everything needed for healthy development of all sytems in their body, they now trust corporations to nourish their babies with synthetic substance because it's too old-fashioned, or vulgar to nurse, or because their breasts are sexy.

Maybe some of these biological instincts have weakened due to there now being so many of us, we see other humans around us so much more than before and we know there's no foreseeable (that's not a word is it?) possibilty of human extinction... or that overpopulation could be our demise...?

Anyway, back to my original statement before I got distracted. Love, for INTJ's may indeed be an understanding rather than a feeling, portrayed with actions rather than sentiment/intimacy. We love for reasons, we love with our minds rather than our 'hearts'. I have a toddler, an infant, and a husband who doesn't easily grasp daily responsibility when he's lost in his 'research' and other intellectual pursuits (or playing video games lol)... the infant is easiest for me to 'love' because I have no reason not to, he's also the only one I feel I have to hug and kiss and cuddle. My toddler and husband I can connect with in other ways, talk with, play with etc., and there are real things that I love about who they are, and I express my love by taking care of them in the wife/motherly way which does not come naturally to me, but is easier than trying to show affection the way other types do.

[Nausved]

I love my parents more than I love anyone or anything else (myself included). But I almost lost my parents when I was very young, so that may have something to do with it.

I also lost my brother and my uncle at an early age, so I'm acutely aware of the tragedy and finality of death. (Note: I have never believed in any sort of afterlife.)

And, just for the record, early rough experiences do not "toughen" you up to comparable incidents in the future. If anything, they make you that much more vulnerable to them.

[sriv]

I admit that I do not feel love towards my parents. I feel an obligation, a duty, and above all a gratitude towards them. They raised me and brought me up with much personal sacrafice (I cried 10 hours a day, some of the night as well). They want what is best for me and they live for me.

I feel compelled to repay my debt to them as it is only just. I agree completely with eMachine's first sentence. I could call the intense feeling of gratitude and respect towards my parents as love if I wanted, but to me, that is not really what love is. Love is more of an understanding.

[knitteratheart]

I never understood why we are expected/required to love or even respect our parents. If they deserve it, sure, of course. Mothers, I think should be given at least a little gratitude for having us, especially now in an age where abortion is so much easier. But fathers, I think, especially have to earn their children's love and respect. My father disapeared from my life for over a dozen years. The fact that after he showed up he expected me to have any good feelings for him still makes me angry. My reasoning is what is a father besides someone who made love to your mother? Just because you're connected to someone by blood doesn't mean you owe them anything. For example, if you were raised by foster parents since birth and twenty or so years later you find out that your real parents died in a car accident or something. How are you in any way required to shed one tear for them?
If you had good parents, love them, respect them, cheirsh them. If you didn't show them gratitude for raising you (and I use the word 'raising' lightly) but anything else depends on you and you only.