Do INTJs think that they are better?

[TheFreeThinker]

Do other INTJs think that they are better than many/majority because of their rational way of thinking?

Frankly, I think that way. I know I make mistakes but I try not to. I don’t know many things but I’m constantly learning about anything that shows me a better (rationally) way of living or is just interesting. Maybe this is one of the reasons that makes me self-confident.

[Jbmontag]

I do think our way of thinking is preferable, perhaps because it is mine. In practice the thought process does seem to be more streamlined. I do have another INTJ friend who I worked with. He's about the only person I'll ask for opinions on raw ideas from, I can count on him for directness and honesty, or a different perspective. I have some feely type friends that I'll defer to when confronting issues on arguments, or how to give my opinion to someone with out making them cry ;D

[Doppelbock]

Do other INTJs think that they are better than many/majority because of their rational way of thinking?



No. We KNOW we are better.

DB ;-)

[qwerty]

An interesting thought. My answer: Yes and No.

It's like comparing two toys, for this example we'll use a totally awesome remote controlled robot and a block puzzle. The RC robot is fun to play with but there is only so much you can do with it. A block puzzle on the other hand seems boring on the outside but holds endless possibilities.

So it comes down to the person playing with the toys at the end of the day.

[bikerscars]

i think i am more aware of what drives my decisions/actions than the average person

rational/scientific analysis always seems preferable to me; of course that's because of the way i'm wired

so although i don't necessarily think being intj is always better in every situation- overall we make more sense

[Zeinland]

In my early year's, I thought I was the best, that I din't need nobody, I could do anything by myself. Well since im more older and more responsible, Iv'e have grown out of this "plastic" (My sister still call's me that).


Do other INTJs think that they are better than many/majority because of their rational way of thinking?



No. We KNOW we are better.

DB ;-)

Yes We are better, But we gotta know that some people are better than us.... We have an undispited Arrogance!!!!!!!

[TheFreeThinker]

Yes We are better, But we gotta know that some people are better than us.... We have an undispited Arrogance!!!!!!!


Yes, there are people who are better than us and know things that we probably don't know but our thirst for knowledge and honesty about the things that we don’t know make us more efficient and better problem solvers.Fixed coding

[TheFreeThinker]

Reading everybody’s reply, it seems we are just different edited copies of same masterpiece. :thumbsup: I guess, generally INTJs must have higher IQs too??? :suspicious: I have. I know few INTJs and their IQ is at least around 140.

[Capwolf]

The things being listed aren't only INTJ traits, though - they're NT traits. And I don't think NTs necessarily make more sense in general. We [try to] adhere more to logic, and we tend to make more sense to each other, but we can seem just as erratic and incomprehensible to other types as they can seem to us. The problem is differing thought patterns and priorities, not one type or one group of types objectively 'making more sense'.

I do think most types think they're better than others, though, at least in some ways. Friends/family and I experience mutual moments of "Poor thing; so misguided!" when we (as mismatched pairs) discuss S/N, T/F, or P/J. It's pretty funny.

[deicruxified]

in some cases i do think yes... if things have gone nonsense. but then i am always told i am insensitive so i guess there is a flaw on that subject which i can't really grasp.

as of now, my intj internal bullcrap meter says our ceo's 99.9% pure bullcrap.

1. he can't determine what possibility and reality means... true that it is possible that tobacco companies can sponsor our upcoming event but then reality tells that as per the law, tobacco and liquor companies should stay away from children. then he tells "no they are not selling anyway?" but the point is, we've called phillip morris stating they're not into events with kids... see? bullcrap...

2. he's dictating his ideas on us and not analyzing whether it is feasible or not. when i say dictate, we should say "yes". then when things go wrong, as he said, we should report, he says, it's wrong coz we're not doing it right and our actions are our own personal attacks that's why we're not doing it. but then, since he dictates, when we say "no" he's gonna retort stuff like we're just slacking off...

sorry i'm ranting lol

[Firelie]

I didn't think I was better than anyone else in the past, but I've been thinking about this question today, and I've come to the conclusion that yes, I am under the opinion (however unconscious it may have been) that INTJ's have a better way of thinking. I know this because I'm constantly getting annoyed when people don't handle situations the way I would have...which generally means that I think I'm right and they're wrong and that I'm probably just as arrogant as the lot of you. Har! [smiley=smug.gif]

[Jon]

If we were really so great, we would be ruling the world, not the ESXXs (probably ESFJs).

[Max T]

I like bikerscars take on this. * My view is more extreme cos I have to work with others and really, really value being rational.

Thinking that we are better than others due to our more rational processing can quickly be distilled to just plain "thinking we're better than others". * This is a hair's breadth away from just plain arrogance that those who MBTI typecast say INTJ's are.

The effects of arrogance are terrible-
1. It reduces flow of information to us and its accurate interpretation by us
2. It fuzzies our identification of patterns within patterns (the higher order effects)
3. It leads to our generally attributing all wrongs to others and all rights to ourselves, resulting in our continuous repetition of the same mistakes… mistakes that we don’t even know we’re making!

So it really screws up thinking. *It’s akin to following a heavily ideological, devout (note fanatically devout, not ‘church on Sunday’ follower), ‘willing to die and kill for it’ type of religion. * Thick lens on reality.

If we’re NT, why would we allow some basic human fault like arrogance mess us up? * That’s for everyone else to contend with. * * Surely what matters most is that we’re rational, which requires us to keep in check our self- confidence. * I have a written list of all my weaknesses. *

So joining the internal and external perspectives:

Self-confident and perceived by others as not arrogant = good. :thumbsup:
Self-confident and perceived as arrogant = not so good. :-/
Grossly self-confident (i.e. arrogant) and perceived by others as arrogant = bad. :thumbsdown:


Most have little to be arrogant about. *And the few that do have a reason, wouldn’t have achieved so much if they were.

I'm just better in tiny parts (and try to stick to these parts!) but otherwise average.

[Jezebel]

Yes and no. When it comes to skills and abilities I'm not very judgmental... I'm actually very critical of myself not being up to my own standards.

I do get frustrated by people a lot though. I make marketing/informational materials at work, and sometimes I train people. Things have to be dumbed down a lot. Sometimes I just can't understand how people can be so dense and not understand things that are blatantly obvious to me. For example, a program will have step by step instructions, and yet I'll STILL have to read everything out loud and walk people through the whole thing. I just don't get it.

I think my frustration isn't so much that I think that I'm smarter than most people, but that I view most people as too lazy to try to figure things out themselves. Not that I think there is anything wrong with teaching people things, just that every single thing shouldn't have to be spoon fed.

[Evalis]

What a silly question! Of course INTJs are better! (And I'll throw INTPs in there too since I happen to get that sometimes). Just consider the progression of society towards a technocracy.. towards the unfeeling, completely logical constructs that are created to do our bidding. INTJs have already recognized that this type of behaviour is more beneficial to society, and adapt.. while others need to be TOLD that this is a good thing. In fact.. in almost all things, other personality types need to be 'told'. Surmizing and theorizing and testing cause-effect for themselves is a foreign concept.

That isn't to say that non-logical people are bad or anything.. it just means we need to treat them like inferior lifeforms. I recommend we host feeding pens like we have for pigs or cows, and herd them all in there to 'socialize' and not do anything that could further tamper with society. Right now most CEOs fall under the 'feeling' type categories and we are in danger of being subjected to such rediculous inventions as toilets that wipe our asses for us, or the introduction of clothing that costs $5 to manufacture being priced (and purchased I might add) at $3000

This needs to stop.

Considering that all other MBTI types have something called.. uhm.. what is that again.. oh right: 'down-syndrome' it wouldn't hurt for us to go ahead with the above changes. In fact, I also recommend we put them in petting zoos, then it becomes a win-win. They get their touchy feely recognition without actually doing and work and interrupting the production flow (which is what they wanted anyway), and we all get cookies.

If you agree, please wipe my ass before exiting this forum.

Thank you!

-John

[Firelie]

I think my frustration isn't so much that I think that I'm smarter than most people, but that I view most people as too lazy to try to figure things out themselves. Not that I think there is anything wrong with teaching people things, just that every single thing shouldn't have to be spoon fed.

Exactly. I come to expect a certain amount of independence of mind in other people. I have a couple of coworkers that come to me for silly things that they could've easily figured out if they'd just taken the time to look over the document again, and another one that comes to me for advice on all sorts of stuff that I know nothing about...I've taken to telling that one to "google it" over and over, since that's about all I can do for most of her questions. She's finally started doing it herself, it only took me telling her dozens of times.

[Jack]

Hmm..Better than who exactly? ;)

[Tarrick]

Hmm..Better than who exactly? ;)

The masses I would guess. Anyways, it depends on "best at what". For a lot of things, we do have many advantages inherent in being INTJs, but we also have some remarking "disadvantages" (if you call them that) in regards to what most people think is normal activity. But oh well.

[MichaelH]

Other type's reasoning is chaotic and sometimes fundamentally flawed. My ESFP spouse keeps getting hung up on weird stuff that just "has to" be that way. Sometimes my logic can talk him around the sticking point, sometimes not. When talking fails, it's not a flaw in my logic!

However, I've become more humble about it over time. Everyone has their own biases and cognitive quirks, including me. Worse, the math is working against me.

Say an INTJ can come up with 100 good ideas a year, and the average non-INTJ person only comes up with (by my standards) half of one.

Me: 1 person x 100 = 100 good ideas a year.
Everyone else: 5 billion people x 1/2 = 2.5 billion good ideas a year

Obviously, sifting through other's ideas give me a much richer source to go on. I find it's most productive to ask around for a starting point, run with my insights for a while, then ask again when I hit a sticking point. Others are often surprised or pleased with where I've gotten, but without the input from them I'd have been stuck further back.

P.S. Don't get me wrong. SFs aren't "dumb", and they have an amazing advantage when working with things rather than ideas. However...linear, logical processes are not their strong suit.

[v1cious]

I like bikerscars take on this. My view is more extreme cos I have to work with others and really, really value being rational.

Thinking that we are better than others due to our more rational processing can quickly be distilled to just plain "thinking we're better than others". This is a hair's breadth away from just plain arrogance that those who MBTI typecast say INTJ's are.

The effects of arrogance are terrible-
1. It reduces flow of information to us and its accurate interpretation by us
2. It fuzzies our identification of patterns within patterns (the higher order effects)
3. It leads to our generally attributing all wrongs to others and all rights to ourselves, resulting in our continuous repetition of the same mistakes… mistakes that we don’t even know we’re making!

So it really screws up thinking. It’s akin to following a heavily ideological, devout (note fanatically devout, not ‘church on Sunday’ follower), ‘willing to die and kill for it’ type of religion. Thick lens on reality.

If we’re NT, why would we allow some basic human fault like arrogance mess us up? That’s for everyone else to contend with. Surely what matters most is that we’re rational, which requires us to keep in check our self- confidence. I have a written list of all my weaknesses.

So joining the internal and external perspectives:

Self-confident and perceived by others as not arrogant = good. :thumbsup:
Self-confident and perceived as arrogant = not so good. :-/
Grossly self-confident (i.e. arrogant) and perceived by others as arrogant = bad. :thumbsdown:


Most have little to be arrogant about. And the few that do have a reason, wouldn’t have achieved so much if they were.

I'm just better in tiny parts (and try to stick to these parts!) but otherwise average.

i disagree. i don't see arrogance as a negative trait; it is only a bad trait to have if you are terribly stupid like Bill O'Reilly or Al Sharpton, but it's pretty awesome if you're an INTJ (or me).

answer to the topic: unqualified yes.

[Max T]

i disagree. i don't see arrogance as a negative trait; it is only a bad trait to have if you are terribly stupid like Bill O'Reilly or Al Sharpton, but it's pretty awesome if you're an INTJ (or me).

answer to the topic: unqualified yes.

By "unqualified" do you mean:
1. not limited or restricted by reservations (to comment on the subject)
or
2. not fit, lacking the necessary experience (to comment on the subject)?
If you mean the latter, your humility is admirable.

[Max T]

V1cious- treat my last post with the contempt it deserves.
I just found the double-meaning to be funny.

But I can't believe that a lot of us deliberately set out to be arrogant towards others. Self-confident yes, but arrogant?

Because anyone who comes across us as being arrogant is a **** and we write them off immediately. So why should we expect others to treat us differently?

[biased]

I think I am better than most in the area of my intelligence (intellectual confidence) but I do not think I am better in social intelligence and I respect people who can do that with the ease that I can pull off intellectual confidence. So I'd say it's pretty balanced.

[v1cious]

V1cious- treat my last post with the contempt it deserves.
I just found the double-meaning to be funny.

But I can't believe that a lot of us deliberately set out to be arrogant towards others. Self-confident yes, but arrogant?

i have no problem with people who are arrogant about something that they have something to be arrogant about.

e.g. noel and liam gallagher of oasis. arrogant and conceited? yes. best band in the world? probably not. best-selling band in the world, an aspect (tons of record sales) which contributed to their fame during their hey-day? yes. so, why are they incorrect in saying that they were the best band in the world (in one or more aspects)? they certainly were, so why lie when you really do possess a high opinion of yourself? it all seems useless to me.

Because anyone who comes across us as being arrogant is a **** and we write them off immediately. So why should we expect others to treat us differently?


i don't write people off based solely on their arrogance. i factor in things like achievement, intelligence, etc. before performing the write off. bill o'reilly looks like a complete moron when he is arrogant, because he has absolutely nothing to be arrogant about; stephen colbert, on the other hand, is fucking hilarious, and it is also fucking hilarious when he is arrogant.

[INTJohn]

in some cases i do think yes... if things have gone nonsense. but then i am always told i am insensitive so i guess there is a flaw on that subject which i can't really grasp.

as of now, my intj internal bullcrap meter says our ceo's 99.9% pure bullcrap.



Physiologically, I think thats impossible. There has to be a significant amount of h2o in there somewhere which, when combined with the bullcrap (from my Chemistry & Physiology classes) would produce a vast supply of diarrhea............

INTJohn

[Max T]

To believe that a rational mind entitles someone to consider themselves better than the masses (and likely arrogant towards masses) is ludicrous- they are arrogant about something (rationality) they obviously lack. The more confident you become, the less rational also. It’s self-defeating.

Time and again humans overestimate their capabilities- e.g. >80% of Swedish drivers consider themselves to be above average drivers. Read an introductory psychology text on cognitive bias and heuristics and you’ll see INTJ’s irrationalities.

I have carefully considered your two posts, v1cious, but you haven’t supplied reasons in favour of being arrogant. Instead you have given cases when arrogance is acceptable to you. You can overlook writing off arrogant people if you alone approve of their type of achievement/ type of intellect or if they make you laugh.
Your mind’s default setting is “consider arrogance as bad unless (meets tight criteria)”.
To answer your question “why lie when you really do possess a high opinion of yourself? it all seems useless to me.”, the reason to ‘lie’/ keep in check your self-confidence is that if you come across as arrogant, you greatly increase the numbers who want you to fail and alienate some who previously supported you. So when you are successful and famous, if you become overtly arrogant your fame will diminish and you’ll struggle to build on prior success due to reduced support.
That is why you should temper your self-confidence.

I’ve tried to appeal to the INTJ in us by listing how arrogance screws rationality above.
A final attempt is to list some quotes from far wiser people than us on why arrogance is bad or that achievement comes through humility:

I found 1000 ways to not make a light bulb- T. Edison’s disarmingly humble take on his achievement.
If I have seen further it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants- Isaac Newton.
Arrogance and investment returns are inversely correlated.
Pride comes before a fall. (think Oasis).
Do you wish people to think well of you? Don't speak well of yourself- Blaise Pascal.
Life is a long lesson in humility.
After crosses and losses men grow humbler and wiser. B. Franklin.
Humility is to make a right estimate of oneself.
Pity the arrogant, for they are guarding their past and their future is bleak.

Most relevant to INTJs:
In a humble state, you learn better. I can't find anything else very exciting about humility, but at least there's that. John Dooner.

Pride (arrogance) is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right. Ezra Benson.

[v1cious]

To believe that a rational mind entitles someone to consider themselves better than the masses (and likely arrogant towards masses) is ludicrous- they are arrogant about something (rationality) they obviously lack. The more confident you become, the less rational also. It’s self-defeating.

no, it's not. you are drawing drastic conclusions that your premises do not support. "i think therefore i am" directly contradicts your claim that the more confident you become, the less rational also. i think that i am the greatest human being in the world, and it, no doubt, helps me in everything i do. is it delusional? possibly. does it work? fuck yes.

Time and again humans overestimate their capabilities- e.g. >80% of Swedish drivers consider themselves to be above average drivers.

k, why is this bad?

Read an introductory psychology text on cognitive bias and heuristics and you’ll see INTJ’s irrationalities.

the only irrationality in this quote is your suggestion to read introductory psychology text. "read the bible and you'll see why god exists!" provide some concrete proof for your claims or don't say anything at all.

I have carefully considered your two posts, v1cious, but you haven’t supplied reasons in favour of being arrogant. Instead you have given cases when arrogance is acceptable to you. You can overlook writing off arrogant people if you alone approve of their type of achievement/ type of intellect or if they make you laugh.
Your mind’s default setting is “consider arrogance as bad unless (meets tight criteria)”.

reason1: arrogance helps me achieve greater things
reason2: rightful arrogance only hurts those who are too stupid, and i don't care about the stupid anyways

To answer your question “why lie when you really do possess a high opinion of yourself? it all seems useless to me.”, the reason to ‘lie’/ keep in check your self-confidence is that if you come across as arrogant, you greatly increase the numbers who want you to fail and alienate some who previously supported you. So when you are successful and famous, if you become overtly arrogant your fame will diminish and you’ll struggle to build on prior success due to reduced support.
That is why you should temper your self-confidence.

I’ve tried to appeal to the INTJ in us by listing how arrogance screws rationality above.

by the very same token, you should not be an introvert because it greatly increases the numbers of those who want you to fail and alienate those who would otherwise support you. should we all conform to societal standards, even those that do not make any sense, just because it might increase our chances of survival? should we all lie about things we don't truly feel strongly about because it make us seem better? it's very ironic that you mention "tight criteria," because that's what this very much is.

there is no way to accurately judge exactly which action of ours will alienate someone who previously supported us. i am what i am, if people like me-- cool, we'll get along even if we have disagreements, if people don't-- fuck them, there's 6 billion people in this world and i will have absolutely no trouble finding those that i could consider friends.

A final attempt is to list some quotes from far wiser people than us on why arrogance is bad or that achievement comes through humility:

what makes you think that quotes from "far wiser people than you or i" (how did you even establish that?) are true? people who dislike those that are arrogant are usually very emotional and thus easily offended, and i bet that's what the origin of every one of those quotes is.

[Max T]

MAXTo believe that a rational mind entitles someone to consider themselves better than the masses (and likely arrogant towards masses) is ludicrous- they are arrogant about something (rationality) they obviously lack. * The more confident you become, the less rational also. * It’s self-defeating.

VIC no, it's not. you are drawing drastic conclusions that your premises do not support. "i think therefore i am" directly contradicts your claim that the more confident you become, the less rational also. i think that i am the greatest human being in the world, and it, no doubt, helps me in everything i do. is it delusional? possibly. does it work? fuck yes.

Telling yourself you're the greatest will work wonderfully in an artifical constructed reality. * You atttribute your achievements to your arrogance- so lose your arrogance and you stop achieving? No- you'll go onto greater successes. * Organise a project with 10+ people and see how they behave with an overtly arrogant project manager. *

MAXTime and again humans overestimate their capabilities- e.g. >80% of Swedish drivers consider themselves to be above average drivers.

VICk, why is this bad?
Because they will be prone to misjudgement as a result of this overconfidence.
30+ academic papers on the negative effects of overconfidence:
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MAXRead an introductory psychology text on cognitive bias and heuristics and you’ll see INTJ’s irrationalities.

VICthe only irrationality in this quote is your suggestion to read introductory psychology text. "read the bible and you'll see why god exists!" provide some concrete proof for your claims or don't say anything at all.
The majority of the biases are backed by nearly 3 decades of empirical research.
If you don't want to do the mental heavy lifting, at least read these (concrete proof):
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MAXI have carefully considered your two posts, v1cious, but you haven’t supplied reasons in favour of being arrogant. * Instead you have given cases when arrogance is acceptable to you. * You can overlook writing off arrogant people if you alone approve of their type of achievement/ type of intellect or if they make you laugh.
Your mind’s default setting is “consider arrogance as bad unless (meets tight criteria)”.

VICreason1: arrogance helps me achieve greater things
reason2: rightful arrogance only hurts those who are too stupid, and i don't care about the stupid anyways
reason 1- Sure, arrogance will get you off the ground in terms of achieving, but it will limit your greatest achievements. * You acknowledge that it's generally a negative trait... leveraging a negative trait to achieve positive greatness is illogical.
Reason 2 is a non reason- again you're justifying to yourself why arrogance is not always bad- only bad say 99% of the time. * You keep doing this.

MAXTo answer your question “why lie when you really do possess a high opinion of yourself? it all seems useless to me.”, the reason to ‘lie’/ keep in check your self-confidence is that if you come across as arrogant, you greatly increase the numbers who want you to fail and alienate some who previously supported you. * So when you are successful and famous, if you become overtly arrogant your fame will diminish and you’ll struggle to build on prior success due to reduced support. *
That is why you should temper your self-confidence.

I’ve tried to appeal to the INTJ in us by listing how arrogance screws rationality above.

VICby the very same token, you should not be an introvert because it greatly increases the numbers of those who want you to fail and alienate those who would otherwise support you. should we all conform to societal standards, even those that do not make any sense, just because it might increase our chances of survival? should we all lie about things we don't truly feel strongly about because it make us seem better? it's very ironic that you mention "tight criteria," because that's what this very much is.


Away from survival, societal standards and "things we feel strongly about" and back onto fame and increasing your subsequent success, IF you want increased subsequent success then yes, arrogance should be thoroughly tempered and yes, introversion should be slackened a little for you to say attend a few interviews rather than go back into isolation. * Hardly lying to ourselves. * *It's clear that arrogance deters more people than just being a little introverted.

MAXA final attempt is to list some quotes from far wiser people than us on why arrogance is bad or that achievement comes through humility:

VICwhat makes you think that quotes from "far wiser people than you or i" (how did you even establish that?) are true? people who dislike those that are arrogant are usually very emotional and thus easily offended, and i bet that's what the origin of every one of those quotes is.
The quotes are true- truisms- because millions have read them and agree.
Do you think that someone passing an electrical current through hundreds of permutations of bamboo cane coated with carbon was an 'emotional type'?
The origin to the quotes is not some knee-jerk emotional reaction following an encounter with an arrogant "****". *
The origin to the quotes is age and the mistakes that come with trying.



fixed broken quote tags.

[v1cious]

Telling yourself you're the greatest will work wonderfully in an artifical constructed reality.

lol, so give me a substantive definition of reality, then. who are you to say this reality is not artificial nor constructed by us? who are you to DEFINE reality? ALL reality is subjective; your reality is different from my reality, that's what the principle of "i think, therefore i am" is all about and that's why it's so fucking brilliant.

You atttribute your achievements to your arrogance- so lose your arrogance and you stop achieving? No- you'll go onto greater successes.

there's so many things with this chain of logic that are wrong that i don't even know where to begin.

your premises do not imply your conclusion. stop doing this.

Organise a project with 10+ people and see how they behave with an overtly arrogant project manager.

anecdotal scenario, therefore irrelevant.

watch: "organize a project with 10+ people and see how they behave with an overtly passive project manager. you know what they'll do? everything, because they will be able to control the project by themselves and have no need for authority...or something! conclusion: passiveness in everything is GOOD!"


Because they will be prone to misjudgement as a result of this overconfidence.
30+ academic papers on the negative effects of overconfidence:
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did you even read this? it doesn't anywhere imply that overconfidence in everything is intrinsically bad, it just says it CAN lead to mistakes, which is retarded and does not support your argument at all.

The majority of the biases are backed by nearly 3 decades of empirical research.
If you don't want to do the mental heavy lifting, at least read these (concrete proof):
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

i know what cognitive biases are. you have yet to justify how these cognitive biases apply to INTJ's, because that's what i originally asked for.

VICreason1: arrogance helps me achieve greater things
reason2: rightful arrogance only hurts those who are too stupid, and i don't care about the stupid anyways
reason 1- Sure, arrogance will get you off the ground in terms of achieving, but it will limit your greatest achievements. You acknowledge that it's generally a negative trait... leveraging a negative trait to achieve positive greatness is illogical.

your conclusion that it will limit your greatest achievements comes absolutely OUT OF NOWHERE. once again, you make the mistake of coming to a conclusion when the premises to do not imply it.

...why is leveraging a negative trait to achieve positive greatness illogical?

Reason 2 is a non reason- again you're justifying to yourself why arrogance is not always bad- only bad say 99% of the time. You keep doing this.

uhh, that's what i am arguing for. rightful arrogance is justified (e.g. me). arrogance by people who aren't as smart as i am is not.

Away from survival, societal standards and "things we feel strongly about" and back onto fame and increasing your subsequent success, IF you want increased subsequent success then yes, arrogance should be thoroughly tempered and yes, introversion should be slackened a little for you to say attend a few interviews rather than go back into isolation. Hardly lying to ourselves.

sounds like the philosophy of a spineless scumbag who is too afraid to challenge authority. also, argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad verecundiam.

It's clear that arrogance deters more people than just being a little introverted.

it's "clear"? as determined by an opinion of a single individual who does not represent the general opinion of intelligent people?

i would say that introversion deters far more people, seeing as how 25% of people are introverts that suffer because the majority that sets the status quo are extraverts.

maybe black people should be a little more white; after all, it would help them fit in, wouldn't it? maybe people with black hair and black eyes should be blonde-haired, blue-eyed because it would help them more in life? fuck individualism, right?

there so many things that are wrong with "conform just because it will benefit you" that my head begins to hurt.

what if i put a gun to your head and tell you to suck my dick and that if you don't, i will shoot you? will you conform or not? it'll ensure your survival, so why not?

The quotes are true- truisms- because millions have read them and agree.
Do you think that someone passing an electrical current through hundreds of permutations of bamboo cane coated with carbon was an 'emotional type'?
The origin to the quotes is not some knee-jerk emotional reaction following an encounter with an arrogant "****".
The origin to the quotes is age and the mistakes that come with trying.


so if a million people agree that 2+2=5, it will become so? how did you even know that a million people agree that all of those quotes are true? if there's a traditional standard that's been around for centuries that is the equivalent of 2+2=5, it is also objective, right?

also, bamboo? electrical currents? what the hell are you talking about?

[Max T]

I’ve listed some faults that others relate to being arrogant.

You’re defending arrogance because you attribute your past successes to being arrogant.

Therefore my views are an unintentional, yes unintentional, threat to your foundations to success (hence your response with gun reference, expletives, name calling).

It's certainly not my intention to criticise you so I'll immediately stop writing about arrogance.

Lets agree to differ, v1cious, and enjoy the other threads and our commonalities instead (of which there are many). *
:thumbsup:

[v1cious]

I’ve listed some faults that others relate to being arrogant.

You’re defending arrogance because you attribute your past successes to being arrogant.

Therefore my views are an unintentional, yes unintentional, threat to your foundations to success (hence your response with gun reference, expletives, name calling).

It's certainly not my intention to criticise you so I'll immediately stop writing about arrogance.

Lets agree to differ, v1cious, and enjoy the other threads and our commonalities instead (of which there are many).
:thumbsup:

this isn't a personal matter for me. i listed oasis as an example of arrogance that is beneficial and i can provide many more.

[Jeroen Jan-Willem]

Do other INTJs think that they are better than many/majority because of their rational way of thinking?
No. I do not think that the method matters if the results are consistently good. I also do not equate being successful with being (unqualified) "better" in any meaningful way. I also do not think "being better" is much of a point of attention, it's improvement I am interested in, and any input is welcome.

[GOD]

Do other INTJs think that they are better than many/majority because of their rational way of thinking?

Frankly, I think that way. I know I make mistakes but I try not to. I don’t know many things but I’m constantly learning about anything that shows me a better (rationally) way of living or is just interesting. Maybe this is one of the reasons that makes me self-confident.


Sorry, I don't think about being better, I know I'm better.

Everyone and anyone I have ever met that has been outstandingly intelligent has been almost certaintly an INTJ (maybe a ENTJ or anything like xNTx).


Perhaps INTJ's are exactly opposite to what you are implying. Its a well known trait to hang back while everyone stuffs up... and then for the INTJ to then take over and save the day. Why is this? You could say their introversion makes them less likely to step forward until they REALLY need to... or you could say that just perhaps they hang to the side in a classic contingency mode and step in when they know they are definitely going to get a positive cost/benefit personal WIN in the situation.

lastly, I believe its the INTJ's that you will find as the people giving advice to the limelight leaders, it fits their introversion and also provides them with plenty of contingency risk mitigation if the leader etc falls from grace.

Personally, INTJ's should step out and be a lot more arrogant as its fits their profile better, when they are wrong they'll get dented, but more importantly they'll improve intellectually reasoning through the jousts.removed empty space

[Max T]

I also do not think "being better" is much of a point of attention, it's improvement I am interested in.

Totally agree and want to add to this.
Believing you are better due to your rational thinking requires comparing to others.
This comparative "thinking we are better" is hollow/ fake on two counts:
1. you're comparing on existing, well-trodden grounds: hardly breakthrough and truly better is it?Absolute results (i.e. new achievement/ big improvement) matter more than relative results (relative to others/ minor incremental improvement).

2. you're comparing to others in areas that you value (rationality) and as an NT should excel at. Now try comparing more globally- e.g. in areas such as motivating 100 people to proverbially move mountains or correcting 1 person's dysfunctional behaviour through therapy... still feel superior? If you're going to think you're generally better, then to reach that view requires you to at least compare on broad global terms. Everyone's amazing in their own backyard.

Taken further, when you do create genuine improvement over mediocre "better", attack the creation like crazy (others will when you break the timidity to go public), instead of bathing in the afterglow of your """"new found wisdom"""".
I consider healthy, unrelenting confidence to come from real attainment, hard work (due to coming under other's scrutiny) and appreciating your weaknesses. Fragile confidence exists through comparative results, little work (esp. not externalising results) and downplaying your weaknesses.

Perversely, the better you think you are due to rationality, the more repellant you will appear to the few that you truly admire- those that are even more rational than yourself.
:-X

[Stopharian]

In my real life experiences it does seem as if INTJs think that their way of thinking is better. Of course, so do the ESTJs. Which raises an Interesting question......would you say that INTJs are the SJs of the NTs?

I might

I think INTJs have a lot in common with ants. but thats good cause we need ants. Ill just keep comin up with the ideas and you guys just keep implementing them.

[Evalind]

I "suffer" from an intense knowledge that for every single thing I think I know, there's someone else out there who knows more about it than I do. Being so aware of my own lack of knowledge keeps me quite outwardly humble most of the time.

[The Rose]

I went through most of my young life thinking everyone else was fine except me- till I was about 30.

[Max T]

In my real life experiences it does seem as if INTJs think that their way of thinking is better. * *

... Ill just keep comin up with the ideas and you guys just keep implementing them.
Assuming "way of thinking" and "ideas [for] implementing" are very similar, either this forum does not reflect real life to you or the above is illogical?
:thinking:


... unless you consistently come up with "ideas", such as the example above, which reflect INTJ behaviour (e.g. your view that INTJs think their way of thinking is better). * If your ideas are repeatedly INTJ-compliant, we are the original source of your ideas and you are implementing them as only someone could on a forum- by relaying them back.
But that viewpoint disturbingly nurses our INTJ ego.



... unless you're using 'INTJ-compliant ideas' as camouflage, to then encourage us to consider non-INTJ ideas such as:
Which raises an Interesting question......would you say that INTJs are the SJs of the NTs?

or even more harmful ideas such as:

I think INTJs have a lot in common with ants. *but thats good cause we need ants. *Ill just keep comin up with the ideas and you guys just keep implementing them.
But if you are doing this (which is a lot less derogatory to you than the previous two paragraphs), who came up with the idea for you to stir things up a little? Jezebel did- an INTJ. * *;D
So you're the ultimate implementor to an INTJ idea, you just aren't aware of it and are very dutiful, or you are aware of it and causes you discomfort, hence your posting.
;)
But this last viewpoint also disturbingly nurses our INTJ ego- a biased view that could distort my judgement. *Damn rational thinking. ;D

[sriv]

Once we get to know about ourselves and the others around us, we seem to have a superiority complex. This complex is good and bad. Good because it serves as a defense mechanism and tells us to be suspicious of all the conformity and rules around us. Bad because it gives us overconfidence.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

In my experience, people who think they are better than other people are arrogant. When I say arrogant, I mean that they believe that they have qualities and skills that they either do not possess or possess in much less abundance than they believe. Arrogance is a way of dealing with low self esteem.

[sriv]

A certain level of pride is necessary. If you keep lying to yourself how everyone around you is better than you, then you will start getting depressed and even more isolated than before. I agree that arrogance is a way of dealing with low self-esteem, but the truth is that some people have more ability than others.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

A certain level of pride is necessary. If you keep lying to yourself how everyone around you is better than you, then you will start getting depressed and even more isolated than before. I agree that arrogance is a way of dealing with low self-esteem, but the truth is that some people have more ability than others.
Ability does not = better than others. Are you better than an infant or a mentally challenged individual? Feeling superior to others is a psychological state of mind that allows people to deal with their emotional baggage in an unhealthy way.

Confidence is not the same as arrogance or feeling superior or thinking that you are better than others.

"A certain level of pride is necessary." I agree.

[sriv]

Ambiguously, a person is never better than another. This is what most people think of when they see better. Taking a test, it will give definite results. Taking many many tests on various topics and situations will give insight. Some person's existence may mean more than anothers. It is an elitist society.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Ambiguously, a person is never better than another. This is what most people think of when they see better. Taking a test, it will give definite results. Taking many many tests on various topics and situations will give insight. Some person's existence may mean more than anothers. It is an elitist society.
O.K.

[Lagawrd]

I most definately used to think I was always correct in my younger years. That changed however as I grew up and as I joined debate clubs at school.

Even though rationals are probably better than everyone at rational things, we certainly live in a place where more Fs live. So there is no real way to decide which is better or correct if you are siding that the majority is correct. Some degree of feeling with rationality is required to be ultimately correct to both sides. A strict Thinker and a strict Feeler can argue on and on without seeing each other's point of view. In this situation no one can really say he/she is correct and the other is not.

I do not think I am better or always correct, I wait a while before judging.

[Vivid]

INTJs are not especially rational. The iNtuitive preference is an irrational one.
I'm an IxTJ, but I don't think I'm better than others. There's things I'm good at and things I'm not good at it.

[azelismia]

I went thru most of my young life assuming I was the only intelligent person in the world. that I was Just the whiskers on the kitten.. I've had that knocked out of me though. I am much more humble now, but I do think NT'ts have an edge on everyone else mentally, Emotionally though I think other types are better off.

[onlyparallel]

Arrogance helps INTJs attempt things that other wouldn't try, sometimes it leads to overconfidence, but the important thing is that our arrogance makes us who we are. It means you'll have to really be right to win us over, we won't just follow blindly, we'll acheieve greater things through trying greater things. Imagine if no one had confidence, if everyone was willing to follow blindly and never forge their own way. Confidence is a good thing, don't hate on us becasue we're gifted with a lot of it.

[sriv]

Arrogance helps INTJs attempt things that other wouldn't try, sometimes it leads to overconfidence, but the important thing is that our arrogance makes us who we are. It means you'll have to really be right to win us over, we won't just follow blindly, we'll acheieve greater things through trying greater things. Imagine if no one had confidence, if everyone was willing to follow blindly and never forge their own way. Confidence is a good thing, don't hate on us becasue we're gifted with a lot of it.

Great way to put what I was trying to say earlier, onlyparallel!

Confidence makes us unique just as underconfidence makes a type like INFP unique.

[Lagawrd]

But confidence which will lead to 'overconfidence' will also put the illogical thought of you thinking you are correct the whole time. I know I am correct after some deducing, not because I relied on my confidence. If your confidence fails you (which will eventually happen), you would probably be so stunned you would lose your focus along with that confidence.

Now, no one says confidence is a bad thing, but there is a difference between having confident confidence and having blind confidence. Confident confidence is being confident because you are sure you are right because you either went through it already, or you studied it throughly. Blind confidence is arrogance which will lead you no where but to infinitely trust yourself blindly, until you get proven wrong of course... either in a debate or in a certain situation.

[Metafire]

INTJs are really better at things which can be improved by thinking (= nearly almost everything). The problem is just that they are so good that they can't understand people that are not so good, and that's not good. That's also the reason for the arrogance of INTJs. They just can't understand how icredibly stupid people can act and therefore don't take the stupidity into account which is a great mistake. Therefore INTJs are unforgiving towards others and therefore they aren't liked that much personally. That's one of many reasons why INTJs are not popular as leaders and so we don't rule the world, because the world is "democratic" at the moment.

Also INTJs tend to do everything right, but that's quite too much for others to bear. We are just stupid animals so we simply can't to everything perfectly. But we are the best ones for the important things. Other personality types are better for the fun things.

[Antares]

Well, if we look at the famous MBTI types on mypersonality.org, we have the longest list. The masses may be ES--s, but we tend to stand out, don't we? I used to love people; I really did, but when I started reading into politics and mass hysteria, I can't help but be frustrated. When they're reacting enthusiastically to propaganda, I was mentally screaming: "You're buying this? How COULD you?" Most people don't think; they do what they're told and believe what they're told. That's why propaganda is so effective, and I really can't respect people like this.

I think I'm better than most people; I really think I am. I definitely value NT more than SF, but I and J are open to question. My IQ is around the 140's, it doesn't measure overall intelligence, I know, but it definitely measures something. I spat out a philosophy piece with such creativity and brilliance that my English teacher, who hates me, told me it was great. "That was just... phenomenal... But I'm not sure your peers will be willing to edit it. They won't even want to read it; it's too intense." I'm taking a professional diploma for piano. I may be egotistic and arrogant, but I certainly earned it. I think I'm liked; in my very limited perspective. I have a lot of friends and they like me for who I am. I don't think I'm overconfident. I know exactly what I can do and what I can't. I know what I'm horrible at, and I admire those who are adept in those fields. I accept my fallibility and will admit when I'm wrong. I'm not that conceited.

Call me arrogant if you'd like, but I'm not sure I'd really care. I already know I am.

[enfpchick]

YES, YES, and YES.
funny thing is they aren't but are the only ones who don't know ;)

[Motor Jax]

i think INTJ's are spot on

i mean, even just the other day, my nuerons were fired up and i actually had to blow the collection of cobwebs and dust off my thoughts processes




random fact: did you know Sigmund Freud was typed as an INFJ, as well as Edgar Allen Poe?

[PRBori]

I don't see myself as superior from others... but do see myself as more knowledgeable than others...

So in the superior aspects Yes and NO... No because I have no issues dealing with people who are lower than me, in other words I get along well with the cleaning crew and I don't look down on them for their personnal choice..

Yes, because I do feel I have so much to offer and I see so many management decision that just don't make sense at all... and those I feel I'm superior because of my ability to see the "big picture" and easily streamline long tedious processes into less time consuming and less tedious process than previous ones...

So it really depends on the situation...

[Wolfgod]

I am better than most people - where I'm an expert.

There are plenty of things I'm not better than other people at, but I assign a low value to those things (otherwise I'd have gone to the effort to become an expert at them) so I tend to look down on them. It's entirely subjective, I know, but it's easy to get caught up in it.

[DrEast]

I only think I'm better than people who are worse than me.

The smartest, most capable person I know is an INFJ. One of the most fun, practical people I've ever been around is an ISTP. Personality types are largely unimportant for perceptions of competence, intelligence, or worth.

[Mafiaangel180]

So for those of you that know/think your better than everyone, if you are with someone, how do you view your significant other? Do you feel that you are better? Or do you see them as an equal?

[sriv]

So for those of you that know/think your better than everyone, if you are with someone, how do you view your significant other? Do you feel that you are better? Or do you see them as an equal?

I probably would not accept a significant other who is not my equal or superior.

[Iconoclash]

I asked this question from a slightly different perspective and I got shot down on my thread. Basically I was asking if you think INTJ is the personality of choice. All I got was, well, every type if balanced is preferable......there is good in every type.

*sigh*

Anyway, I believe that my way of thinking is best because it combines introspection with intuition/gut with rational head sense and logic. I'm a very balanced INTJ so I tend to possess almost both sides of the coin when it comes to Intro/Extro and Si/Ni. I'm a hardcore thinker and J.

I have a higher drive for success and attainment than most I see around me. A higher threshold for pain and isolation than most due to my relative ostracization by my peers who are often extroverted and Si to the point that they can't deduce much from life experiences and see things in when presented in abstract or alternate ways. THey cannot manipulate concepts and social constructs to their advantage as easily I can.

Everything with them is explicit. Not only can I see the explicit, I can also perceive the implicit as well. More avenues for attaining knowledge liberates one for better courses of action, in my opinion.

This world needs diversity as it is diverse by nature, so we wouldn't survive with an abundance or sole existence of INTJ's. In that light, you cannot really say if INTJ's are better than everyone if we cannot survive without everyone or anyone else.

But deep down inside.........my heart is nodding ............YAH!! lol





Iconoclash added to this post, 8 minutes and 20 seconds later...

A CAVEAT I just thought of....

What if the INTJ grand disillusionment of grandeur and superiority is fueled ..........in large part to their usual intense Introvertedness. Introverts are energized by mental auto-stimulation, being with themselves, engaging in solitary endeavors and such. What if all that time amassing knowledge and being by yourself, you lose a sense of being among others and feel you are better.......because the only "competition" you have truly have is yourself?

It's typical for an INTJ to be a social liability so to speak. They just....are different in demeanor, thought process, virtually every conceivable way in a heavily Extrovert dominant culture. So by spending time with/by themselves, they compensate this loneliness with feelings of being better than everyone.

They call us the "masterminds"....You know. The wild-haired, misanthropic sociopathic anti-social individual who uses his genius to exact revenge on the society who rejected him and blah blah blah. He develops this monolithic ego and his confidence is fueled by his rejection and being misunderstood.

Could that be something, as well?

[darkkodiak]

I don't think we consider ourselves better, more like we simply know what we don't know and that gives us the edge over others.

[gogurtdynasty]

mostly yes sometimes no

Yes for everything but social skills and Mine really aren't TOO bad

[airshiplogic]

I think that's an impression of other types. INTJs often know what they know and know what they don't so when someone says I know it's this way, it can be seen as arrogance. For me if you cannot support your ideas with good reasoning, I might just trash the idea. Other than that, I think it could be the directness. Blame the confidence.

But I do recognise that there are people better than me. (:

[onlyparallel]

I probably would not accept a significant other who is not my equal or superior.

I agree, I would NEVER accept a significant other who is not my equal or superior. I couldn't stand spending all of that time with them if they weren't. I need someone on my level or above for conversation and debate and moral questioning. Otherwise I think the relationship would just suck.

As for the question about INTJs being better than other people, yes we most certainly think we are. And we're right because we're always right. If you don't agree I dare you to prove that we're not. But due to INTJ's highly deductive reasoning, expert satus on anythingt that strikes their fancy, and ability to dissolve your pointless arguements into sarcastic jokes you will never win. So even if we're not the best at everything, we're the best at arguing, so you've already lost.

[strangeaslife]

We are infinitely superior.

[OneBadMother]

People who are [insert MBTI type here] on an [insert MBTI type here]-specific forum tend to think they are superior, though I haven't particularly seen that on the INFP forum. The proponents of INTJ superiority here have a sort of cool, mildly condescending, sometimes half-joking arrogance, while INTP elitists at INTP Central are quite outspoken and contemptuous of non-INTPs. Both are pretty bad, but as an INTP here I can at least dodge the "OMG UR NOT A REAL INTJ UR NOT X-TREEEEEEEEEME ENOUGH" rhetoric. :P The good thing is that, at least in this thread, I've seen mostly intelligent, moderate, and well-thought responses.

On the note of superiority complexes in general, I think everyone who's grown up feeling more intelligent and insightful or less societally-adapted than their peers has a bit of that going on. It's a matter of acknowledging it and figuring out what everyone else is good at and worth respecting for. :P

[Uytuun]

I've also noticed that lots of other types like to flame INTJs (/me waves at *****), whereas INTJs do not seem to feel the need to attack other types that much...which probably enrages them even more.

[errrzarrr]

I don't think (like doubting or guessing) I AM!

[Beery Swine]

An interesting thought. My answer: Yes and No.

It's like comparing two toys, for this example we'll use a totally awesome remote controlled robot and a block puzzle. The RC robot is fun to play with but there is only so much you can do with it. A block puzzle on the other hand seems boring on the outside but holds endless possibilities.

Great analogy dude. I have alot of sequential movement puzzles and they're the shizzle and so are INTJs.

[catd]

I've also noticed that lots of other types like to flame INTJs (/me waves at *****), whereas INTJs do not seem to feel the need to attack other types that much...which probably enrages them even more.

I have noticed this too. I think they might feel inadequate around us. Most people aren't confident, INTJs are.

[Deadgod]

It is simply natural for an NT to feel elitist and better than others. But it is always the case that whenever one's superiority is undermined by a so-called moron, typically through action, they become inclined to retreat to themselves, usually rationalizing, "How did I fail?". An Inferiority Complex thus arises, coupled with a Superiority complex to form the Inferior-Superior Complex. This is almost exclusively regarding INTPs and INTJs. And I would say it is really hurtful towards the INTJ because it is the natural tendency for the INTJ to simply know things, and when that knowledge is interrogated the tertiary function of introverted feeling is used.
Excuse the redundancies, if there are any present. I don't use the internet often due to time and schedule issues.






Deadgod added to this post, 4 minutes and 13 seconds later...

A solution for this "thinking that I'm better than you" problem is to simply go for excellency. Forget Perfection. The Perfectionist died before he reached the top of Mount Everest. The Excellent one climbed it twenty times over.

Don't worry about others. They have their strengths and weaknesses. An ISTP is a natural gunslinger but can't philosophize like an INTP or INTJ can.

[AJB]

i disagree. i don't see arrogance as a negative trait; it is only a bad trait to have if you are terribly stupid like Bill O'Reilly or Al Sharpton, but it's pretty awesome if you're an INTJ (or me).

answer to the topic: unqualified yes.

Couldn't agree more with this one V1cious

[bluestar]

I was talking today with some friends about how I feel that I'm better than other people (obviously the friends in the discussion were not included in the "other" category). I can't help but feel that I know how to do things better than other people do because I have thought them through, spent hours evaluating the validity of one method over another, and so on. I guess it's not so much thinking I'm better than other people, but knowing my actions are better thought out than those of most people.

[zoophilia]

It depends, in relation to what? In general though, yes. I despise elitism though. In my opinion if I am the best person around then it tends to make me depressed. I prefer to interact with those who are better than me (so I can learn and for the challange). I also long for the fusion of all the "bests" in the world and seek to be a person who can transcend all of those boundaries. However, I know I am not that (nor do I think this is possible neuronally [though I hope that we can achieve that through technological development]).