White Getting African American Scholorship

[Avid]

This isn't an opinion post (for me). I'm seeking YOUR opinion and I don't care about your "feelings". This is purely a call on judgement and logic based solely on the basic principle of fairness (I'm not going to define fairness for you as the principle is so simple if you ask for one I will just make fun of you). OK so now that we got that out of the way my actual issues open for discussion. Don't be shocked if I don't directly apply and I won't attack any line of logic unless you break the rules. I read everything everyone posts but obviously I give preferential treatment to those who put more effort into it (duh). Now the fun part...

I was just reading about a guy, born from parents descended from Irish (easily recognizable as white), who was born, raised, and grown in Africa and later immigrated to the US for educational purposes. OK, whatever I lost interest past that.

But should he be entitled to an "African American" scholarship as he actually is one? Why? and why not?

In case I missed some punctuation in that allow this to pacify you
,,,,,,,,,,.................,.????????!!!!!!!!! I have a pet peeve when people just reply to point out I missed a comma.

[Wufnu]

Sure, why not. He's African, isn't he? Perhaps if enough non-black people from Africa get the scholarships we could see a decline in use of hyphenated Americans. It would merely be a semantic change, however, from "African American" to "black" scholarships (or whatever term they might replace African American with). I kind of like "colored" but apparently that's not in use anymore. It doesn't have the negative connotations "black" does (re: night, villains in movies, etc). In fact, from my point of view, colored is better than blank. Positive word, eh?

I don't think this person getting a scholarship will have any effect on much other than pissing racist blacks off and giving KKK members and skinheads something to gloat about.

[Mozzes]

It's no coincidence that "black American" and "African American" are considered synonymous. It's as much a cultural designation as it is racial.

Besides, African Americans are considered to be Americans with African ancestry. This guy, on the other hand, would be an African immigrant. It depends on how pedantic you want to be. It would obviously not be the in the traditional spirit of African American scholarships.

[Avid]

Good first answer.

Someone argued "Why doesn't he just look for a white scholorship?" The minority scholorship paid better and had lower standards and at least according to the figures I saw. With specified naming of "african american"I fail to see how skin tone would be an actual issue in regards to his qualifications. The most advantageous thing would be to apply for the minority one.

I like "colored" too but too many years and too much abuse of the term has made it a no no term. "Exceptionally well Pigmented" is too long to put on a form and "Extreme pigmentation" sounds like a disease. <--goes off in search of a more appropriate word

Also, I chose black/white simply because I figured it would generate more views. This simple questioning of color/heritage/entitlement applies to everyone.

*Second post also has good stuff to ponder.

[Ijz]

Not being from the USA, I don't really know much about the hidden meaning of all your racially related words. My take on it is that "African American" just means "Black American". I mean if you follow the logic of the term "American American", then there would also have to be "Aussie American" or "European American". So therefore, no it doesn't really make sense that he applies for an "African American" scholarship.

I kind of like "colored" but apparently that's not in use anymore. It doesn't have the negative connotations "black" does (re: night, villains in movies, etc). In fact, from my point of view, colored is better than blank. Positive word, eh?
That really blew my mind. So if there are "colored" people then there must be "non-colored" people right......white people? So you are actually separating white people from non-white people is that what you're saying? I think by saying "black" you actually acknowledge them as they are. There is probably a lot of hidden tension in those words and that's whats makes things so complicated.

[Wufnu]

Yes, white would be the non-colored people. Apparently it was the more gentile term for blacks in ye olden days. Oddly enough, "colored" didn't include Asians (yellow), Hispanics (tan), Native Americans (red), etc. Like I said, the word "colored" sounds positive in my mind but I wasn't even alive when it was popular so I suppose there is something negative about it to some. When I hear it, I think "colorful" which is a good thing.

PS - they're not really black, as I'm not really white. Whites have the word "caucasian," however. I'm not aware of a term like that for blacks but it would seem that we could use one. Perhaps we could use the general term "African" the same way we use "Asian." Or just use black, as we have been doing. I've never liked black, or white, because they're not accurate. It's also possible that we could stop trying to tell them what to call themselves and stick to African American, which it would seem they prefer. Just something about the hyphenated Americans that seems wrong to me.

Derail: I have no problems with "Native American," even though it could be considered one of those hyphenated American words. They're natives. Of America.

[Solitas]

Well, considering the point of those scholarships is to give an unfair advantage based on something as arbitrary as a phenotype I think it's all fair. I always put Hispanic when I fill out applications. How can they say someone isn't dark enough?

[Karamazov]

I've always hated these classifications, especially when people confuse ethnicity and nationality.

His being white is irrelevant. He is a citizen of that region, born and raised; therefore he can be rightfully called "African-American". The same would go for anyone else, regardless of race/ethnicity.

It's funny how this confusing disparity has become so ingrained in our society. When ever people ask me where my parents hailed from, I reply that my father is from Northern-Africa; yet, that suddenly means that he's black. Not including the various other regions where black people are to be found (not just Africa)

[Monte314]

I head an organization that awards scholarships.

The money is *always* managed in accordance with the wishes of the donors. People who willingly choose to fund a scholarship have the right to determine the conditions of award.

If you don't like the way a particular scholarship is managed, then get out your checkbook and establish one based upon your values.

(And when you do, how interested do you think you will be in the opinions of uninvolved third-parties who complain about how you decided to use your own money?)

[Avid]

I seriously love this forum from the bottom of my dead, broken, yet still somehow functioning heart. This is the first time I've asked something like this and someone didn't go over the deep end. All of your insights have been appreciated.

To be honest, I don't care about the overall outcome of the scenario but mostly I've been musing over the hypocritical nature of things I observe.

[ElstonGunn]

Perhaps we could use the general term "African" the same way we use "Asian."

The problem with that is that someone from Tel Aviv or Irkutsk or Delhi is just as geographically Asian as someone from Tokyo or Xi'an. "African" has the same problem-- Cairo, Marrakesh, Johannesburg. "American" is like that, too. Anyone from this hemisphere could be called an American. Just because one country was dumb enough to give itself a name that doesn't allow for a convenient adjective form, that doesn't give it a right to seize the name of two continents.

Derail: I have no problems with "Native American," even though it could be considered one of those hyphenated American words. They're natives. Of America.

Just like me. Or did you mean their distant ancestors? In that case, isn't the theory that they'd be "Native Asians," or, going even further back, "African-Americans"?

[Wufnu]

Well, the problem is that most other races have some sort of term to describe their race which, as often as not, is based upon the nationality of their races origin. In the case of Native Americans the American bit, to me, means the Americas not USA. As far as I know, they are rather particular to the Americas. I'm sure I'm neglecting something; I haven't put much study into races of the world.

[ElstonGunn]

Well, the problem is that most other races have some sort of term to describe their race which, as often as not, is based upon the nationality of their races origin.

That's part of why race seems like such an arbitrary thing to me. It's often based on color, in which case "black" and "white," while not literally accurate, seem like the best terms to me if people insist on drawing such a distinction. Other times it's within color, whether you're talking about Germans and Italians or Tutsis and Hutus.

[Karamazov]

That's part of why race seems like such an arbitrary thing to me. It's often based on color, in which case "black" and "white," while not literally accurate, seem like the best terms to me if people insist on drawing such a distinction. Other times it's within color, whether you're talking about Germans and Italians or Tutsis and Hutus.

Based on biological anthropology, in a scientific sense, there are only 3 races: Mongoloid, Caucasoid and Negroid. All ethnicities fall under those 3, so using "White" or "Black" seem like the best to use, so far as race is concerned.

[Wufnu]

That's the word! Negro. I knew there was something I just couldn't remember it. I'm not sure if that's a polite word anymore, however.

[Avid]

There was something I came across once that said there was a secluded tribe or region that had been left alone for long enough that their genetic variance almost qualified them as another species. Don't remember where I found it and I'm not sure it was peer reviewed. I tried to re-discover the article first so you could make what you will of it (I'm forever skeptical of "new discoveries" until it is peer reviewed) but so far google has failed me....I tried human+ recently+discovered race+secluded tribe and some other variables of that. If I discover a sequence that works I'll get back to you. :thumbsup:

Wuf- I don't understand how that word should be considered bad either as it means the same thing as black only in spanish. But I'm not going to go into the discussion of "otherwise unoffensive things that get jacked to the world of evil according to some sort of peer group". I might do that in another topic like that for those of us who may wish to explore that further. I tried to tentatively discuss this in school (a place of learning)but it was quickly nipped in the bud by feelers and in the interest of not having to go to the office I didn't press it and let them get back to their shallow discussion about symbolism (sigh). Nice input though wuf.

Kara-I definitely like the logic. I would make more conversation with you but don't see *where I could add on anything of general importance.

[ElstonGunn]

Based on biological anthropology, in a scientific sense, there are only 3 races: Mongoloid, Caucasoid and Negroid.

I've heard of that, too. Just out of curiosity, what do "biological anthropology" and "scientific sense" mean? Is it like a DNA thing or physical features or what?

[Karamazov]

I've heard of that, too. Just out of curiosity, what do "biological anthropology" and "scientific sense" mean? Is it like a DNA thing or physical features or what?

Yeah, pretty much. It all pertains to genetics and biological evolution, along with the scientific terms that have been thrown around, regarding racial typology. I wouldn't personally bank on the terms though, since a lot of it has been discarded as outdated and actually racist. Much of it has do with the term's connections with so called race science and eugenics.

I just brought this up, due to the past history of others positing this.

[Canegrande]

Welcome to the club bruthah! Ghetto passes and playah cards will be recieved by mail.

[Avid]

Welcome to the club bruthah! Ghetto passes and playah cards will be recieved by mail.

You have to admit to some extent racism is funny since the core issue is mostly cultural.

[Well Then]

I think this has gotten lost in semantics. Most "African American" scholarships are intended for Americans of Native African descent, the standards are lower and the rewards are better as a part of a blanket attempt to "better" the status of that particular ethnic group by providing easier educational opportunities.

In that sense, your white South African friend is outside of the target audience. Whether or not he still deserves the scholarship has a bit more to do with the merits of awarding preferential scholarships to minorities. Either that or I suppose it's morally justified to claim things due to semantic loopholes, and as far as I know, that only works in a court of law.

Also, I gotta say, one of the best things about being black is watching other people squirm to find polite ways to say things. It's a pretty potent reminder of the hypocritical idiosyncrasies we have - I mean, it shouldn't matter how you phrase things if your intent is spot on, right? Right? Style over substance fallacy?

=D

Pardon me, I'm going to go run outside and yell "nigger," because I'm apparently allowed to based on my skin color. As long as Russel Simmons isn't around...

[DrEast]

A past differentiation of color, evil and mistaken, has led directly to attempts in the present to continue to benefit, on all sides, from the differences in the coloration of people's skins.

It's always been a false distinction, it always will be, and I find anything (besides a purely aesthetic discussion) based in skin color or any other surface difference to be arbitrary, and attempts to institutionalize these differences to be offensive.

Edit: That said, I also firmly believe in the right of people to give their own money to whoever they so desire. So I would stand firmly on the side of the scholarship if it were completely privately funded and turned this gentleman down.

[rahdam]

a guy, born from parents descended from Irish (white), who was born, raised, and grown in Africa and later immigrated to the US for educational purposes. OK, whatever I lost interest past that.

But should he be entitled to an "African American" scholarship as he actually is one? Why? and why not?



"African American" is a very interesting pair of words. I have always taken it to mean an American of African descent (the individual or some reasonable ancestor of the individual was born in Africa). The gentleman in question is African, not African American. If the wording of the scholarship is African American, I would argue that he does not fit the requirement, unless he has U.S. citizenship and is therefore an American. Then, being of African descent (he himself was born there), he is an African American and eligible for the scholarship. I dont think, given the phrasing of the problem, that race is an issue at all in this instance.

[Autoptic]

I kind of like "colored" but apparently that's not in use anymore. It doesn't have the negative connotations "black" does (re: night, villains in movies, etc). In fact, from my point of view, colored is better than blank. Positive word, eh?

That's the word! Negro. I knew there was something I just couldn't remember it. I'm not sure if that's a polite word anymore, however.

Both have serious issues in the southern US. They're antiquated and remind one of the past. It's more a matter of association with the times when they were used than what they were even meant to imply. Someone using them now, unless it's worn off recently, suggests a backward, at least unintentional racist.

Why aren't people like the Inuit a more distinct group? They have a number of curious physical adaptions no one else does, and there are other similarly distinct groups.

[Zedicus]

Why aren't people like the Inuit a more distinct group? They have a number of curious physical adoptions no one else does, and there are other similarly distinct groups.

You mean something like this?

On April 1, 1999, Nunavut (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) separated from the Northwest Territories to become the newest Canadian territory. The creation of Nunavut was the outcome of the largest aboriginal land claims agreement between the Canadian government and the native Inuit people. The Inuit, who make up 83% of Nunavut's 24,730 residents, will be one of the first indigenous peoples in the Americas to achieve self-government. Nunavut means "our land" in Inuktitut, the Inuit language.

[Autoptic]

Actually I meant adaptions like this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), though apparently, such differences are also common.