ISTJ/INTJ relationships - do they work?

[cprogess]

I was wondering how INTJs feel about dating ISTJs? It seems like this is an unlikely paring, though as an ISTJ myself I have many close relationships with both INTJs and INTPs (my father is an INTJ). Have any INTJs had a relationship with ISTJs, if so how did that work out? What were some of the pitfalls and what were the benefits? Does anyone know if there is an ISTJ forum?

[Colette]

I've had a few. I don't agree that INTJ/ISTJ are an unlikely pairing. Sharing 3 letters is I think a drawcard for both in terms of initial attraction, and the two types have significant common ground when it comes to personality traits such as a love of order and systems, careful and clever planning, a drive for efficiency and self-improvement, similar needs with respect to social contact and space/privacy, and a strongly rational bent that promotes a good mental connection.

However the S/N divide (at least in my case) proved to be the ultimate dealbreaker when it came to actually sustaining the relationship. I encountered communication difficulties (S types have trouble connecting with an N because of the N's tendency to talk in metaphors, and not follow a linear thought and conversation process). Also I found the ISTJ male type to be quite fussy and a little OCD in some areas, obsessed with the correctness of facts, and long winded storytelling, and a tendency to lecture and be a little self righteous and judgmental.

I'm sure some of my N traits were a source of frustration to them too. What I call creativity and a passion for ideas, they might see as absent mindedness or a pointless waste of time in pursuing areas of theoretical interest but no practical value. My lack of practicality and tendency to forget where I put things, or forget and fudge around minor details, could be similarly irksome.

ISTJs can tend to be more of a 'serious' type than the INTJ. They do have a sense of humour, but they use it sparingly, and it tends not to be the sarcastic/ironic sort. They don't tend to enjoy being teased, and they seem to prefer formal 'joke telling', which is not my preferred mode of humour.

I could go on and on about the difficulties of the S/N divide, but in my opinion this pairing is harmonious at the level of general lifestyle, values and the ability to plan together, but presents huge challenges at a communication and basic 'rapport' level. I doubt whether a pairing where the ISTJ's 'sensor' rating was high, would have a good prospect of success. The N can adapt better to S traits than the S can to N traits, I think.

[zudusu]

I'm an ISTJ female married to an INTJ male for 15 years plus three years of dating. I would say that overall we have a good marriage, mainly because we BOTH work very hard to make it work. We have a similar sense of humor and a similar parenting style (which in my friends with kids is possibly the biggest issue in their marriage.)

Some ways we clash- I have a tendency to flip out over something minor such as leaving a wet towel on the carpet. I'll shout "Why did you leave this wet towel on the carpet??" Once I yell, I'm over it. I'm not angry and I don't think he's a complete idiot in everything he does. My husband tends to come back with something I consider completely illogical such as "So you think I'm a bad father?" WHAT???? Then that annoys me and depending on both of our frame of mind and stress level that particular day, we can escalate into a full-blown fight. Also, he is terrible at instantly coming up with a "proper" reply and will often unintentionally say something hurtful or else he'll completely misinterpret my intentions. For example, I'll come home from work and say "Ugh, I have a horrible headache." He'll reply "I'm not a doctor, what do you want ME to do about it???" (Uh, nothing, I just wanted to whine about my headache. I never in a million years expected you to fix it.)

Over the years we've established some generic replies. If I bitch about my boss or whine about a headache, he replies "Oh, poor Susy." I think we have "mostly" established that I DON'T want him to kill my boss or cure my headache... I also try very hard to NOT complain to him about work or minor ailments. He tries hard to not take my wet towel on the carpet outbursts as a personal attack and tries to reply "I'll try not to do it again."

I think the fact that we both want the relationship to work and both work hard at it is far more important than any difference in personality.

[Jenny Penny]

My mom is ISTJ and dad is INTJ and they couldn't really connect on any level. I think they were drawn to one another because they saw another withdrawn soul who would not play games. My dad got tired of her nagging and withdrew into his head, which frustrated her even more.

I think the N/S is the most important preference for a romantic couple to have in common. That's not to say it can't work... it will just be more challenging at times.

[INTJoe]

I'm an INTJ male and I live with an ISTJ girl and we've been dating for 9 years, living together about 2-3.

Our relationship is quite silly sometimes, but it works and I think it will work for the long haul. The N/S difference is certainly difficult at times. But I like the difference. Where I'm the messy, genius, planner-type who envisions our future together and figures out how it will work, she's working "behind the scenes", paying the bills on time, keeping the house tidy, cooking, etc. She's very practical and loyal and low-maintenance and I really love and appreciate that about her.

Often times, I feel as though she doesn't appreciate what I bring to the table. I'm viewed as a sort of lazy, messy, unhelpful dude who gets away with way too much as she would put it. I often have to remind her of all the research I do about complex things that will affect our future family, such as financial planning. All aspects of it, including retirement accounts, savings, finding value in used cars, researching home prices in the area, researching property taxes...etc. All the things that are "boring" to her, but exciting and challenging for me. Things the definitely have an impact on our future family's future.

Where she throws the "I cook and clean and you hang out on the internet all day" argument at me, I have to retort with "the research I'm doing today will save us tens of thousands of dollars down the road. I'm sorry you cannot see the results of my labor yet, but don't attack me for that."

That is definitely Sensory of her to not understand this. Fortunately, because I understand MBTI, I'm not bothered by this. I understand that she doesn't "get it", and I simply remind her and she is fine.

Again, I think our relationship is good, because where she focuses on the here and now, I'm focusing on the next 5, 20, 50 years. Where my brain is full of messy ideas, she's keeping our apartment clean! She does sometimes feel incapable of carrying on a complex discussion with me, and she has a bit of a complex when it comes to me visiting INTJ forum and getting here what I don't get from her. That is deep, complex thought. It doesn't bother me at all. It might not be "traditional" in her eyes, but that's not an issue for me.

Another area we struggle is that she's always pointing out my shortcomings, and I NEVER point out hers. She knows it doesn't bother me much, but I do find it super annoying after a while. One day I just asked her "when was the last time I told you something you weren't good at, or tried to change you?" She couldn't think of one time, and I had to explain to her that I love her as she is, and she should do the same. I told her I know damn well what my shortcomings are, but having her point them out all the time is destructive and inefficient.

She brought home a 2 week old dog one day without asking me first, which I found completely irrational. We ended up keeping it though. But we'd had plenty of discussions about adding a dog to our family and none of them ended in the word "yes".

After understanding MBTI, I am glad my gf happens to be ISTJ. Not that I think it's the best match for me, but it seems like I would have severe problems with many of the remaining types.

Oh, she constantly has to give me a hard time for never getting "fired" for getting to work "late". She thinks I get away with too much and I have to explain to her that people in a corporate setting don't get fired because their schedule happens to deviate by 30 minutes from another's. It's so silly. It's like, does she WANT me to get fired??? lol. I'm totally cheating the system!!! :)

[Seppuku Savant]

I respect ISTJs, but there is no way in hell I'd date one.

[Grace]

Both my parents are ISTJ. So is my aunt, who also lived with us while I was growing up. I know how to get along with them, but I would find it impossible to be in a serious relationship with one.

[umm]

I'm a female ISTJ, and one of my best friends is a male INTJ. We've known each other for about 5 years, and I feel that we have a very strong and functional friendship/realtionship.

The positives: Friendship with him is extremely drama-free and relaxed. We're both have a dry, sarcastic humor so we find the same things funny, and share many of the same interests. We talk about books and recommend different titles/authors to one another, and enjoy many of the same hobbies. He is a great listener, and I really never feel judged by him. I can say whatever I want around him, and I know he is one of the few people that "gets" me. We can sit in silence together and not have it be awkward.

The negatives: Although there are many things I love about him, our realtionship can lack passion or excitement at times. Although we have lots of fun together and are at ease with one another, there are other types of people who really bring out the spark and passion in my life. The INTJ doesn't get to see my silly, fun side a whole lot. I feel that in general, we coexist on serious terms. I don't really know how to put this in the right words, but I'll give it a try. My INTJ makes me feel safe and has a very calming effect. He almost never gets excited about things, and neither do I -- which is great for being drama-free, but we're like an old married couple. On the other hand, I have a male ENFP friend who is quite possibly insane, but when I am with him I am constantly cracking up, having fun, and being pulled out of my comfort zone. The ENFP breaks down my walls and forces me to embrace my silly side. So which is better? I really don't know. Being around the ENFP is exhausting, and being around the INTJ is sometimes not so exciting -- I value what both of them bring to the table, but there's +'s and -'s to every type.

Overall, I've had a crush on my INTJ friend basically since I started really talking to him, Sometimes I get the feeling that maybe he likes me, and other times I really can't tell. I think we're both too shy to make a move because in the event that the other doesn't reciprocate, continuing with our friendship would likely be really awkward or difficult. Who knows, our relationship surived being apart from each other for half of our college years and I still consider him a very important person in my life. I think a relationship between us could work, but one or both of us have to be willing to break down and share our emtions openly (something that neither of us are particularly good at).

[normanajn]

While others have touched on it, the N/S divide really is a tremendous barrier. While the other character traits shape our reactions to our world, the N and S affect our base interpretation of it.

What this leads to in N/S relationships is often a disconnect in the ways we view events. The S in the relationship will often observe and event and concentrate on the concrete details, while the N (or in this case the NT) will observe the event and immediately be drawn to a larger, almost metaphoric view of the situation, often with high degrees of extrapolation into future events.

S-type personalities can't stand this type of generalization. It honestly drives them up walls. In contrast N-type personalities see the concrete, detail oriented approach that the S world takes, and write it off as simplistic, or lacking in vision.

N's and S's can be friends, co-workers, have casual relationships, but at their very heart there is an unmitigated incompatiblity with how they see the world, and it leads to problems that you will need to be willing to face.

[xtremegeek]

While others have touched on it, the N/S divide really is a tremendous barrier. While the other character traits shape our reactions to our world, the N and S affect our base interpretation of it.

What this leads to in N/S relationships is often a disconnect in the ways we view events. The S in the relationship will often observe and event and concentrate on the concrete details, while the N (or in this case the NT) will observe the event and immediately be drawn to a larger, almost metaphoric view of the situation, often with high degrees of extrapolation into future events.

S-type personalities can't stand this type of generalization. It honestly drives them up walls. In contrast N-type personalities see the concrete, detail oriented approach that the S world takes, and write it off as simplistic, or lacking in vision.

N's and S's can be friends, co-workers, have casual relationships, but at their very heart there is an unmitigated incompatiblity with how they see the world, and it leads to problems that you will need to be willing to face.

So basically, no different than any other two types in a relationship. The weak areas need to be worked on constantly in order for the relationship to grow and thrive. It could be T/F, N/S, P/J, E/I, male/female. There's no perfect relationship and no perfect partner. Find the most common ground you can and work on the rest.

[normanajn]

So basically, no different than any other two types in a relationship. The weak areas need to be worked on constantly in order for the relationship to grow and thrive. It could be T/F, N/S, P/J, E/I, male/female. There's no perfect relationship and no perfect partner. Find the most common ground you can and work on the rest.

I think you misunderstand the analysis. The N/S trait controls our data input and interpretation. The other three traits are effectively output or reactionary traits. The reason that the N/S divide is so crucial is that it form the basis of our entire world view and serve as the inputs to everything else. If that differs, then even with other traits being similar the patterns of interaction with and interpretation of events are so skewed as to be almost unrecognizable.

If you could have only 1 trait in common with a mate, friend or mentor, it should be the N. Intuitive thinkers in particular can not even begin to relate to the world as seen by any of the S-type personalities. The difference really is that stark, and the barrier almost insurmountable.

[PortInStorm]

I've had a few. I don't agree that INTJ/ISTJ are an unlikely pairing. Sharing 3 letters is I think a drawcard for both in terms of initial attraction, and the two types have significant common ground when it comes to personality traits such as a love of order and systems, careful and clever planning, a drive for efficiency and self-improvement, similar needs with respect to social contact and space/privacy, and a strongly rational bent that promotes a good mental connection.

However the S/N divide (at least in my case) proved to be the ultimate dealbreaker when it came to actually sustaining the relationship. I encountered communication difficulties (S types have trouble connecting with an N because of the N's tendency to talk in metaphors, and not follow a linear thought and conversation process). Also I found the ISTJ male type to be quite fussy and a little OCD in some areas, obsessed with the correctness of facts, and long winded storytelling, and a tendency to lecture and be a little self righteous and judgmental.

I'm sure some of my N traits were a source of frustration to them too. What I call creativity and a passion for ideas, they might see as absent mindedness or a pointless waste of time in pursuing areas of theoretical interest but no practical value. My lack of practicality and tendency to forget where I put things, or forget and fudge around minor details, could be similarly irksome.

ISTJs can tend to be more of a 'serious' type than the INTJ. They do have a sense of humour, but they use it sparingly, and it tends not to be the sarcastic/ironic sort. They don't tend to enjoy being teased, and they seem to prefer formal 'joke telling', which is not my preferred mode of humour.

I could go on and on about the difficulties of the S/N divide, but in my opinion this pairing is harmonious at the level of general lifestyle, values and the ability to plan together, but presents huge challenges at a communication and basic 'rapport' level. I doubt whether a pairing where the ISTJ's 'sensor' rating was high, would have a good prospect of success. The N can adapt better to S traits than the S can to N traits, I think.
Well said! I had an ISTJ partner at work, and it followed your description almost to a "T".

Don't underestimate their drive to be correct at any cost, or their drive period. You have to be uber-firm with them to keep them from bowling you right over. Make the boundaries rock-solid and exceedingly clear.

[curiousjane]

As I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum, my dad is an ISTJ and my mom is an INTJ. They have a rock-solid marriage of 29 years.

Of course, they aren't without their conflicts. I think it really is the S/N thing that is most difficult for them. My mom can dream up complex goals and possibilities (starting a business, investing, ways to raise the kids) and my dad will fixate on the details he doesn't like.

Other than that ... it is their love and commitment and strength of character that has kept them together. And I admire that about them.

[Darkheart]

This question is why I joined this forum! (Glad someone else asked it first.)

I'm an INTJ, my best friend is an ISTJ and I'm in love with her.
Its good to see well worded answers. I'll definitely think on it for a bit longer.

[patata]

Other than that ... it is their love and commitment and strength of character that has kept them together. And I admire that about them.

That's the truth. The N/S barrier is really difficult to deal with, but when both partners are mature and they have the will to stay together and commit, things will go fine.

[INTJoe]

I think you misunderstand the analysis. The N/S trait controls our data input and interpretation. The other three traits are effectively output or reactionary traits. The reason that the N/S divide is so crucial is that it form the basis of our entire world view and serve as the inputs to everything else. If that differs, then even with other traits being similar the patterns of interaction with and interpretation of events are so skewed as to be almost unrecognizable.

If you could have only 1 trait in common with a mate, friend or mentor, it should be the N. Intuitive thinkers in particular can not even begin to relate to the world as seen by any of the S-type personalities. The difference really is that stark, and the barrier almost insurmountable.

First of all, the first sentence I've bolded here is just, like, your opinion, man. I is probably the trait I most desire in my mate. You are just assuming that all Ns need another N for some weird reason. I get my "N" outlet online. That's where all the Ns hang out!

I can totally relate to the world as seen by an S. I just think it's really bland and simplistic. There is value to it, but to say Ns can't relate to the S-world is silly. I think an N can relate to the S-world much easier than an S can relate to the N-world.

While the difference is stark, the "barrier" isn't even close to being "insurmountable", imo. I hate several other personality types and, no matter how physically attractive they were, I don't even think I could stand an intimate relationship with them. But I love my ISTJ girlfriend very much. And I'm not sure if you even read this thread or not, but there are more examples of long, successful ISTJ/INTJ relationships found herein.

[Synamon]

If you could have only 1 trait in common with a mate, friend or mentor, it should be the N. Intuitive thinkers in particular can not even begin to relate to the world as seen by any of the S-type personalities. The difference really is that stark, and the barrier almost insurmountable.

I'll add my voice to dispute the N/S barrier as well, it can be done. MBTI type is NOT the most important thing in a relationship. I find that I seek out F types for those roles. In fact Ne is really annoying to me so half the other N's out there are NOT people I relate to.

My husband is an ESFJ which according to typology should be a terrible match (we share no cognitive functions). We rarely have any conflict and the differences make life interesting since we BOTH respect the other person and communicate well. People are individuals and type doesn't account for attraction and love.

It is an S world so I agree with INTJoe that most N's have had plenty of practice relating. There is no reason an INTJ/ISTJ relationship would be particularly difficult, sharing the auxiliary Te cognitive function would in theory make it one of the easier pairings.

[xctpx]

I'm an ISTJ female married to an INTJ male for 15 years plus three years of dating. I would say that overall we have a good marriage, mainly because we BOTH work very hard to make it work. We have a similar sense of humor and a similar parenting style (which in my friends with kids is possibly the biggest issue in their marriage.)

Some ways we clash- I have a tendency to flip out over something minor such as leaving a wet towel on the carpet. I'll shout "Why did you leave this wet towel on the carpet??" Once I yell, I'm over it. I'm not angry and I don't think he's a complete idiot in everything he does. My husband tends to come back with something I consider completely illogical such as "So you think I'm a bad father?" WHAT???? Then that annoys me and depending on both of our frame of mind and stress level that particular day, we can escalate into a full-blown fight. Also, he is terrible at instantly coming up with a "proper" reply and will often unintentionally say something hurtful or else he'll completely misinterpret my intentions. For example, I'll come home from work and say "Ugh, I have a horrible headache." He'll reply "I'm not a doctor, what do you want ME to do about it???" (Uh, nothing, I just wanted to whine about my headache. I never in a million years expected you to fix it.)

Over the years we've established some generic replies. If I bitch about my boss or whine about a headache, he replies "Oh, poor Susy." I think we have "mostly" established that I DON'T want him to kill my boss or cure my headache... I also try very hard to NOT complain to him about work or minor ailments. He tries hard to not take my wet towel on the carpet outbursts as a personal attack and tries to reply "I'll try not to do it again."

I think the fact that we both want the relationship to work and both work hard at it is far more important than any difference in personality.
That sounds exactly as the relationship should be, based on the actual characteristics of the classification.

In my relationship, me being an ISTJ female and him being an ISTJ, I tend to be the quiet one, listening to him ramble on about new technological innovations and products being released (and for the record, I enjoy listening very much). He's aware of my aversion, if you will, to contributing my own input on the matter. Usually I'll ask him short facts about the product, or I'll go home on my own and research it myself.

The only issue in our relationship (and it's not too big of a problem, as it only shows itself in certain circumstances), is communication. I have a serious problem translating my feelings or thoughts into words that seem to do these said feelings justice- or possibly I'm trying not to overuse 'feeling-words' so they don't become stale over time. I'm aware that he needs a type of concrete, absolute word and explanation for things, and it really does bug me when I can't give him an answer to "What's going through your mind right now?" or "How are you feeling?"

As for your situation and living together, we'll have to see what happens with this relationship for me to be able to answer that question. I can tell you that the INTJ is very accommodating and kind to people he cares deeply about. :)

[Henry]

I was wondering how INTJs feel about dating ISTJs? It seems like this is an unlikely paring, though as an ISTJ myself I have many close relationships with both INTJs and INTPs (my father is an INTJ). Have any INTJs had a relationship with ISTJs, if so how did that work out? What were some of the pitfalls and what were the benefits? Does anyone know if there is an ISTJ forum?

They're the two most intellectually rigid types, ISTJ typically being extremely inflexible and INTJ not being too far behind. That doesn't make for a great match IMO.

[ElstonGunn]

I've never understood the semi-reverence people seem to have for the S/N split. But to answer the question more directly, I think it would be really stupid to avoid a relationship with someone who interests you simply because of the Forer Effect.

[Indubitably]

Despite the fact that both are introverted judgers, I just don't see SJs and NTs getting along for any extended period of time. At work, in a structured environment, where the NT is the boss and the SJ is the subordinate, it is sustainable, but only because you get to go home at the end of the day.

[Synamon]

Despite the fact that both are introverted judgers, I just don't see SJs and NTs getting along for any extended period of time. At work, in a structured environment, where the NT is the boss and the SJ is the subordinate, it is sustainable, but only because you get to go home at the end of the day.

Are you implying that I'm the boss at home? :laugh: I'm probably repeating myself in this thread but I have an SJ husband and I know other NTs with SJ spouses who make it work too. The SJs may not be able to figure out where we are coming from or care, but we NTs are able to translate since we live in an SJ world. It can be hard work but show me one relationship that isn't.

Henry mentioned that it wouldn't work because both types are inflexible. I disagree, INTJs do what works, that is flexibility in a sense and that kind of commitment is exactly what's needed in a relationship.

Rejecting someone who is an SJ and holding out hope that some perfect INTx will come along is not rational. How many INTJs on this board had never met another one until they came here?

[Sinequanon]

Are you implying that I'm the boss at home? :laugh: I'm probably repeating myself in this thread but I have an SJ husband and I know other NTs with SJ spouses who make it work too. The SJs may not be able to figure out where we are coming from or care, but we NTs are able to translate since we live in an SJ world. It can be hard work but show me one relationship that isn't.

Henry mentioned that it wouldn't work because both types are inflexible. I disagree, INTJs do what works, that is flexibility in a sense and that kind of commitment is exactly what's needed in a relationship.

Rejecting someone who is an SJ and holding out hope that some perfect INTx will come along is not rational. How many INTJs on this board had never met another one until they came here?

This is a good point. I think I met 2 INTJs independently just recently. One is a TA of mine, and, as much as I see parts of myself in him (he screams textbook INTJ, I don't), he's so f'king awkward. I have spent a lot of time being forced to socialize by virtue of my upbringing (black, lower middle class, ESFP mother, very SP family, no chance to escape! :)), and my "mask" isn't as obvious as his is. He so clearly hates small talk that I wonder if anyone's ever approached him in a friendly manner. It's a shame, too, because he's quite attractive and I wonder how many girls have been put off by his nature (in this, I suppose I'm seeing a bit of myself). I know I've pulled his respect from some of the discussions we've had in class, though. I do wonder if we could be friends...

The other INTJ is a female (!) I met online. She's a bit restrained by her religion, though, which is a total bummer. But she's quite obviously intelligent and very interesting to talk to.

To bring this back onto topic, my father is an ISTJ. In just about every way an SJ is different than an NT are the ways in which we clash. While we tend to eventually externalize the world in the same way, the way we take information in is just fundamentally different. It seems like he has soaked up the values of the society (example: When I was 20 years old and 364 days, he never would have offered me a beer. When I turned 21, it suddenly became okay), whereas I've put in a lot of time to figure out what my own values are and to make sure they remain internally consistent with myself (in the prior example, I don't really see the distinction). He is rigidly scheduled, I am much more flexible on the day-to-day processes. He is very intelligent, but, in my view, shortsighted. He knows and acknowledges that I'm intelligent but believes I lack focus. It's an interesting dynamic. It's hard to imagine what the relationship would be like without a power disparity. I wonder aloud whether I'd be able to meet and interact with another ISTJ without reading those differences I have with my father into the relationship.

[True Rune]

I date an S type, but due to certain circumstances our interaction time is limited. I can handle it. But when I think of the ISTJ type in general, it'd be rather boring to me.

[Indubitably]

Are you implying that I'm the boss at home? :laugh: I'm probably repeating myself in this thread but I have an SJ husband and I know other NTs with SJ spouses who make it work too. The SJs may not be able to figure out where we are coming from or care, but we NTs are able to translate since we live in an SJ world. It can be hard work but show me one relationship that isn't.

Henry mentioned that it wouldn't work because both types are inflexible. I disagree, INTJs do what works, that is flexibility in a sense and that kind of commitment is exactly what's needed in a relationship.

Rejecting someone who is an SJ and holding out hope that some perfect INTx will come along is not rational. How many INTJs on this board had never met another one until they came here?

lol With you Synamon, they could be an ENTJ and you'd still be the boss. They'd just never even realize you were in charge until it was far too late.

Besides, I never said that an NT couldn't have a successful marriage to an SJ, just that they couldn't socialize with them for any extended period of time. Why do you think they invented tranquilizer guns. *imagines Synamon in a safari hat and khaki shorts as she scribbles furiously in a note book* XD

[Synamon]

lol With you Synamon, they could be an ENTJ and you'd still be the boss. They'd just never even realize you were in charge until it was far too late.

Besides, I never said that an NT couldn't have a successful marriage to an SJ, just that they couldn't socialize with them for any extended period of time. Why do you think they invented tranquilizer guns. *imagines Synamon in a safari hat and khaki shorts as she scribbles furiously in a note book* XD

Thanks for the feedback, I look great in safari hats. :laugh:

You are right that in a work situation the best dynamic would be with the INTJ in charge. I'm not sold on the socializing, I still think it would depend on the people more than the type. Are you a teensy bit biased by some bad experiences yourself and projecting or are you just basing this on typology? I've been playing devil's advocate in this thread since there are no SJs around to defend themselves, I do that.

[Indubitably]

Haha, see thats the difference between you and me, I play devils advocate because I think its fun to argue with people. XD

Anyway, no, I'm actually talking more about the SJs I have reasonably good relationships with. For instance, a dear friend of mine is an ESFJ, and while I do adore her, if we were trapped on a deserted island together I imagine it would take approximately 37 hours for me to decide that she was a better source of protein than company.

The fact that she is deathly afraid of tanning probably wouldn't help much either (she thinks it makes her look low class). Once she decided to go to the beach with a bunch of her friends but she "didn't realize there would be so much sun", so I had to go rescue her from the dark corner of a random beach side gift shop and escort her back to my car while she ran with a jacket over her head like something out a bad scene from Buffy the vampire slayer.

She is a fiercely loyal friend, and there are times when there is no one I'd rather have at my back, but she is also capable of talking for hours on end without saying anything what so ever, yet refuses to tell you outright when something is bothering her, and I swear, as sweet as she can be, the girl has a mean streak a mile wide.

[Synamon]

Maybe the N/S divide is easier to conquer if both of the types have it as their introverted function. :idea:

So NTs with Ni (INTJs and ENTJs) would have an easier time with SJs. There have been a lot of threads on here asking how to tell INTJs apart from ISTJs because they look very alike on the outside (same primary external function of Te). If both the N and S are introverted functions then all the differences are happening inside and are not as likely to get in the way. This sort of idea is why I'm not a fan of Keirsey's groupings, there can be subtle differences between an NT who uses Ne and one who uses Ni which would influence this sort of situation. So it might be harder for NTs with Ne to tolerate SJs, and the N/S divide would be even worse if both types have the N and S as their external function.

[Firebrand]

So basically, no different than any other two types in a relationship. The weak areas need to be worked on constantly in order for the relationship to grow and thrive. It could be T/F, N/S, P/J, E/I, male/female. There's no perfect relationship and no perfect partner. Find the most common ground you can and work on the rest.

I know of 3 INTJ/INTP couples who have none of these problems.

A NT can have mental leaps that an S type has tremendous difficulty understanding and takes the NT time to bridge the metal gaps to explain it in a form that is digestible to a ST. Likewise, the the ST can spend too much time on the linear order of things and never gets to the overview "big picture" that an NT gets almost automatically. Where a ST sees trees, an NT sees a forest with implications of the future. It's a very deep divide compared to other differences in MBTI.

I also think the cookie fortune wisdom of opposites attract or the "let's pound the square peg in the round hole" aka "Trying to work at it" needs to be weighed against the 60% and climbing divorce rate. If marriage was a student who got a 40% we would say marriage failed. By way of contrast Germany is about 20% and Italy and Spain are 10%. I'll take Europe's odds over ours anyday. Knowing a few people personally from Germany, I've learned that Germany is more T types which tend to approach relationships from a "Does this make sense" perspective. It seems to be working.





Firebrand9 added to this post, 5 minutes and 40 seconds later...

I get my "N" outlet online. That's where all the Ns hang out!

That's your opinion

[Anon722]

I have a Female friend who is an istj, And she is great, but great in a non-surprising way. It's awkward to say it, but I search for a bit of mystery in the other person, something that compensates sinergically, not only a "helping hand".


I might sound rude, but, oh well. It is true. I am not calling ISTJs dull. They are great, again, but the INTJ-ISTJ relation does not generally have a great long term potential.

my perspective, always.

[fearlessphoenix]

This is an interesting topic for two reasons. My mother is ISTJ and has recently taken an interest in MBTI and especially my personality (INTJ). This discussion even took a turn for the worse at the IHOP a few weeks ago when she asked if INTJ was a pathology because anywhere else in the natural world 1-1.5% would be a pathology of some sort . . . this came on the heels of a discussion about her finances not being where she wanted them to be and me pointing out (after being asked) where she could make some "cuts" only to be told that they weren't "practical" for her. So in light of that discussion I told her some people might consider it a pathology to not deal with the reality of their situation and stay stuck on stupid in a method that was obviously not working for them. That was the longest damned pancake breakfast ever. I always find the S/N divide the source of most conflict between us, even growing up, and continues to be painful. I am in the middle of a nasty divorce which she was not supportive of in any way shape or form for awhile. I could go on about the circumstances in which she influenced/bullied me greatly to the discount of my "N" and it has come back to haunt me terribly on many levels. It is my "N" that does keep me sane and I need to not ignore it - it is her constant need to operate as an "S" that seems to lend itself to her own confusion. One example would be that she wanted to see the emails that confirmed my husbands affair for herself (because he insisted all along he did nothing wrong) and so I opened the folder, printed them and let her read them. It seemed to satisfy her "S" need but greatly undermined my estimation of her and what felt like her trust in me to make a reasonable and rational choice about my relationships.

I recently went out for coffee with an ISTJ interested in getting to know me better on a social level. I was bored to tears, he completely shredded up anything I shared with him about projects I was currently working on and excited about and instead questioned my productivity. I admit within the first 45 minutes of trying to engage him in creative conversation and salvage it I was staring at his forehead with the "INTJ Look" and playing word games with the signage behind his chair hoping some friend would call my cell so I could feign an emergency and bail out. He became more of a curiousity than a companion. I am sure there are many nice and kind ISTJs out there but my experience with them has been terrible and I don't know that I would go out of my way to seek one out for any depth-worthy relationship as they leave me feeling rather unsettled and bored.

The two ESTJ relationships in my life being ones of apopolytic disaster. I know that all other MBTI alphabets are up for negotiation when forming a relationship but the S/N divide is one that I am unwilling and unable to conquer, whether that speaks of weakness in me or laziness I no longer care. I do have a preference for "I"s but it's not at all set in stone like the S/N thing has become over the last few years.

Long story short here: I find the XSTJ need for everyone to think and behave like themselves the deal-breaker, the especially strong willed ones are just not happy until everyone is falling in step right beside them. Whoever said that the differences between an ISTJ and INTJ are not obvious is operating from a "S" preference in my opinion. They couldn't be more obvious and the "live and let live" difference is the most glaring first clue in my experience.

[PortInStorm]

That's why I find there's a world of difference between an SFj and an STj. My husband is an ESFJ, and he doesn't have that world-destroying need to be right- he does live and let live. We have other problems, but that one isn't one of them.

But I would agree that for me personally, the S/N divide is pretty hefty. I can get a little crazy about the p/j difference, but once I make some adjustments to my expectations, it's alright. And I've even learned a little about spying opportunities along the way to my goals and changing them if the detour looks more promising.

[Nebula61]

My best friend is an ISTJ (I'm pretty sure) and although we've been friends since childhood, neither of us can ever imagine living with each other! We didn't even consider rooming together in college, because we knew we'd drive each other batty.

We've never agreed on anything our entire lives and our values are definitely not the same, but we value our friendship for the interesting differing perspectives we get from each other (at least, that's why I value it, I have no idea why she does, actually!)

[dcm]

My mom and best friend are ISTJ's.

My mom and I do NOT get along very well except on the rare occasion. I can NOT deal with her. It's just pure stress for me. She's constantly nagging, always on the "WHY DID YOU..." routine, likes to ignore my questions, and just a negative person in general. I tell her flat out about her behaviors, but I don't think she can or wants to change herself because it's engulfed her being.

Whereas,

My best friend (male) and I get along pretty well. I showed him the MB a year or two ago, proving to him that it's a practical and valuable tool for living life. I think that might have helped him realize his potential faults (my mom).

So my conclusion from reading the previous posts, and from personal experience is that if BOTH people are committed to creating a healthy relationship, it will work out. No doubt. Of course, might take extra effort for some personality types, but it will work out.

Also, I think INTJ's who know the MB well, can work out relationships with ANY type.

[NephilimAzrael]

Speaking on the grounds of a particularly significant ISTJ in my experiences. The S/N barrier is good so long as it remains somewhat structured. It does concern the S type when the mundane that they see in our foresight is "laziness" and the sterile habit of the S types as "automatic" in N perspectives. But if intermediating factors are not overwhelming, then the successfulness of the relationship is probable. Clarity seems important to both types on some level, but misunderstandings destroy such bonds when consistency is minimal.

[rara avis]

My mom's an ISTJ. We do have some natural conflict - I'm such an odd daughter for her to have- especially as her first one. But she worked so hard on my behalf. She calls me her Guinea Pig Child.

A very important factor in our relationship was that I had such a hard time in school when I was a kid. She loved me, saw me being damaged, and decided that it was her Duty to be my advocate. Teachers said I was lazy, retarded, or both, and she decided they were wrong. (She wasn't quite sure what was up with me, but she could see me trying and knew I wasn't dumb...)

So. She bought us every good story book about "different drummers". Told me when I was very small (and was probably saying it for her own good, too) that there are "Fasties" and "Slowies" in the world, and that we have to be patient with each other.

She applied herself full throttle to attending seminars and reading about children's ed and different learning styles, went to bat for me repeatedly against many teachers and principals. Finally pulled me out right of school in my early teens and hired private tutors, built my education to suit. (Do you know what a crazy thing that is for someone who is such a natural toer-of-lines?)

Do not come between my ISTJ mom and her god-given duty, she will take you out.

OK, she did medicate me for a while... but no hard feelings. :laugh: She was doing the best she knew at the time.

That said... would I choose to set up a life with an ISTJ partner? Yikes... There would have to be some seeeerious chemistry and all-out devotion to supporting each other's quirks. Tricky. Rigid people can have a really hard time with me.


(Now that I read it again, that last line seems to belong in the That's What She Said thread...)

[AliTree]

well my dad is an ISTJ and i'm an INTJ and we have never had a real relationship, though he thinks we do. i really cannot stand most of his traits. the most being that he can never admit that he is wrong. this is, i gather, a signature trait of ISTJs. so if you can get past that trait, or the person doesn't have that trait very strongly, then i guess it could work. i don't see a good connection, though. they're 2 personalities that don't deal w/ feelings well; not the greatest of combos.

[Henry]

I was wondering how INTJs feel about dating ISTJs? It seems like this is an unlikely paring, though as an ISTJ myself I have many close relationships with both INTJs and INTPs (my father is an INTJ). Have any INTJs had a relationship with ISTJs, if so how did that work out? What were some of the pitfalls and what were the benefits? Does anyone know if there is an ISTJ forum?

My policy regarding ISTJs is:

Socially, they're not very fun. Don't walk, run.

Professionally, they're a nightmare to work for. Don't walk, run.

As family members, they're generally a pain in the ass. Don't walk, run.

As lovers, they're boring and hard to deal with. Don't walk, run.

[rathnite]

I'm INTJ, and one of my best friends is ISTJ. One major divide which I have encountered is that while INTJ's are content to analyze the rules, toss out the old ones, and re-write new and better ones in their place, ISTJ's hold the rules as sacred and unchanging. At the extreme, they think that the rules have always been as they are now and should never be questioned or changed. To an ISTJ, the rules for anything were either written by far more enlightened people a long time ago, or spontaneously appeared from a divine source. Writing rules is both an impossible and unnecessary task for an ISTJ because they take it for granted that all the rules have already been written and will never need to be changed or improved. For an INTJ, it is obvious that rules can have flaws and exceptions, which can be discovered, tested, and eliminated. This is unthinkable and even horrifying to an ISTJ.

I can sum-up this difference in views with Hamburger Helper. There are Hamburger Helper, Chicken Helper, and Tuna Helper, all of which are just noodles and sauce without the meat, even if the noodles and sauce are the same, i.e. Tuna Helper Alfredo and Chicken Helper Alfredo. As an INTJ, I see all of them as just "Meat Helper", and I will interchange them as desired. I'm even daring enough to use turkey, shrimp, or crab. I first noticed this phenomenon when I had a box of Tuna Helper Alfredo and proceeded to prepare it with chicken. My ISTJ friend was totally bewildered and horrified by this. He does everything he can to convince me that I should follow the directions on the box. He even questions whether I should be using ground or canned meat, and it horrifies him if I adjust the cooking time to take into consideration that his stove and oven burn a little hot. Sometimes I cook the meat on the stove and then finish the "Meat Helper" according to the microwave instructions. The box doesn't say that it's okay to do that!

On a similar note, I have noticed that my ISTJ friend is helpless at cooking unless he has a recipe, and he doubts that my methods will have any success, even after he sees the results. Another of my friends has an ISFJ wife who is the same way. She is a great cook, but she wouldn't alter a pre-written recipe if her life depended on it. When I cook, I look over a recipe for the general gist of it, leaf through a cookbook for ideas, and then take a walk through the grocery store to compose a recipe of my own that won't be finalized until the ingredients are about to be put in he pot. I still might change it next time. He is unable to do it that way, and even continues to believe that my cooking only turns out good because of luck. This appears to be because he believes that the rules are always right, and that any successes accomplished by altering or ignoring rules are mere chance and not to be trusted.

[Jgib5328]

I could never date an ISTJ, their like a more boring version of us. One that is better at paying attention to details, likes things more traditional, and to take things slow. I don't think you can develop much as a person if you're dating someone whose close to you in personality.

[Marcus]

On a similar note, I have noticed that my ISTJ friend is helpless at cooking unless he has a recipe, and he doubts that my methods will have any success, even after he sees the results. Another of my friends has an ISFJ wife who is the same way. She is a great cook, but she wouldn't alter a pre-written recipe if her life depended on it. When I cook, I look over a recipe for the general gist of it, leaf through a cookbook for ideas, and then take a walk through the grocery store to compose a recipe of my own that won't be finalized until the ingredients are about to be put in he pot. I still might change it next time. He is unable to do it that way, and even continues to believe that my cooking only turns out good because of luck.

I tend to stick to recipes and I rarely improvise. On the other hand, my ISFJ mum follows recipes much more liberally.

[raz1337]

I can sum-up this difference in views with Hamburger Helper. There are Hamburger Helper, Chicken Helper, and Tuna Helper, all of which are just noodles and sauce without the meat, even if the noodles and sauce are the same, i.e. Tuna Helper Alfredo and Chicken Helper Alfredo. As an INTJ, I see all of them as just "Meat Helper", and I will interchange them as desired. I'm even daring enough to use turkey, shrimp, or crab. I first noticed this phenomenon when I had a box of Tuna Helper Alfredo and proceeded to prepare it with chicken. My ISTJ friend was totally bewildered and horrified by this. He does everything he can to convince me that I should follow the directions on the box. He even questions whether I should be using ground or canned meat, and it horrifies him if I adjust the cooking time to take into consideration that his stove and oven burn a little hot. Sometimes I cook the meat on the stove and then finish the "Meat Helper" according to the microwave instructions. The box doesn't say that it's okay to do that!

Haha. How much of that was analogy and how much was real? :)

I'm thinking the S/N difference is really hard. My mind is focused on the past and present. Yours is focused on the future. We make great partners for a project, but in a relationship? Hum.

I have a friend that's an INTJ. We both get along really well. I think it's the Te that makes us look at the world logically so we get along on that front. However, she's more imaginative than me. Take for example, our varying experiences in our classes. I had to read something in front of the class, and got in trouble for being too "thorough." She had to write a paper, and got in trouble for generalizing too much. I can see it when I talk to her, that I take a lot of what she says literally.

She said in one class that she was making "yo mama" jokes at work and offended someone whose mother passed away. As soon as I heard her say that she was even making those jokes, my interest in her faded a bit because I just saw those jokes as childish. The fact that she was interested in those jokes bothered me more than the fact that she offended someone.

[LionsPride]

I work with a MBTI tested ISTJ. I do enjoy working with him. When we team up on a project, there is always one outcome. The best, completely flushed out and analyzed system we can make. It's a great match. The downside is we don't work quickly and there are some very frustrating moments as we work through the difference in language. Frustrating, but rewarding. The frustration always leads to a light at the end of the tunnel and a brilliant solution. To give us both credit, I work on my INTJ weaknesses and he was typed 10+ years ago and has been working on his weaknesses that long (he's better at bridging the language barrier than I am). It's for these reasons we see each others' strengths and we work together well.

In an emotional relationship? I wouldn't. I couldn't. In a professional way I've seen it work, but I would say that if the views were personal and related to loving on another, I couldn't do that with an ISTJ

[rathnite]

Analogy? Why spend time concocting an analogy when some literal reality will do just fine? As unfathomable as it might seem, I didn't have to make that up. I really did prepare Tuna Helper Alfredo with chicken at the standing objection of an ISTJ. He was sure that it wouldn't work. He even got the box back out of the trash to double-check the cooking time and to show me that it said to use tuna. Not only was it good with chicken, but I also cut the cooking time by 2 minutes while he wasn't looking. I still have a package of ground turkey in his freezer. He's trying to avoid letting me use it in the Chicken Helper. I promise you: I will make Turkey Helper happen.

[Tishy]

I could never date an ISTJ, their like a more boring version of us. One that is better at paying attention to details, likes things more traditional, and to take things slow. I don't think you can develop much as a person if you're dating someone whose close to you in personality.

Oh come now... someone has to make sure the accounts balance, make sure we take our meds, and the house is clean enough for our projects.

As long as you are both aware that while you hate rules and other is all about rules and past experience, it can be done.

My guy is ISTJ and my sister is ISFP... they can make my kitchen nice and shiny.

[Antares]

It depends on the strength of preference for me. I'm borderline N so I can identify a little with sensing types, but I'm hypersensitive about some S types... Overstepping their boundaries to get me to do the 'right' thing. I work well with S types, but leaving their 'boundary' and violating mine can send me into a fit of rage.

[Psykokristin]

I was married to an ISTJ, but being an INTJ it was such hard work and I felt that we could never really connect. We were together for 11 years and really tried to make it work but our communication was hard. He is my friend now, much better than having him as a partner, I don't get disappointed as often now.

I didn't really have a lot of Ns in my life when I met my SJ husband, but recognizing how much easier it is to communicate with Ns, I had to let him go and I'm now searching for an NF instead.

Good luck :)

[Reganon]

One of my best friends is an MBTI tested ISTJ. We've been best friends for several years, but he does tend to drive me up the wall. He is a perfectionist, especially when it comes to details- which makes him an AMAZING violinist and student. But it makes working on group projects near intolerable. I have to withdraw from the group just because I can't stand how he runs it. He always gets good results, and it's infuriating because most of the time he doesn't even think about the big picture.

[Henry]

My mom and best friend are ISTJ's.

My mom and I do NOT get along very well except on the rare occasion. I can NOT deal with her. It's just pure stress for me. She's constantly nagging, always on the "WHY DID YOU..." routine, likes to ignore my questions, and just a negative person in general. I tell her flat out about her behaviors, but I don't think she can or wants to change herself because it's engulfed her being.

Whereas,

My best friend (male) and I get along pretty well. I showed him the MB a year or two ago, proving to him that it's a practical and valuable tool for living life. I think that might have helped him realize his potential faults (my mom).

So my conclusion from reading the previous posts, and from personal experience is that if BOTH people are committed to creating a healthy relationship, it will work out. No doubt. Of course, might take extra effort for some personality types, but it will work out.

Also, I think INTJ's who know the MB well, can work out relationships with ANY type.

I do well with ISTJ in an adult-adult or parent-parent relationship. This is common among peers. But if they're in a position of authority, my experience in that most ISTJs expect that to be a parent-child relationship, and Henry just don't play that.

[Aviatrix]

My husband is an ISTJ. We work together, carpool, live together. We're rarely apart. Our relationship is great because of the ways in which he complements me. We do have our frictions, but some personal insight helps us realize when we're merely being frustrated because our personalities are different. Every relationship takes work. Ours is no exception. He is definitely worth it. He brings out the best in me, and is the only person who can get me to open up. He's made me a much better person. He is also the only person I have ever been able to have a relationship with. Everyone else was too unintelligent and not worth the effort. Can a relationship with an ISTJ work? Absolutely. Is it effortless? Of course not.

[iamnotspock]

Impossible to say how much is *her* and how much is ISTJ but here's what I found:

Pros
-----
- totally down to earth, no emotional BS
- not flaky, very reliable
- paid her half of everything
- neat and organized
- adventurous
- good analysis

Cons
------
- Wanted to be friends w/ benefits, not into real relationships
- Many sex partners, boring sex
- Critical of EVERYTHING from how a random person is dressed to how my apt. is setup
- Thinks all words have only one proper pronunciation
- Sex is all about touching her or there, the physical; not the emotional or intellectual (as in power exchange)
- Foul-mouthed and unfeminine (tries to be in charge, too much of a tom boy)
- Boring Conversations, no big ideas
- No sense of humor
- Fear of emotional intimacy
- Talks way too much
- Addicted to cigarettes, coffee, sex, and anything else that stimulates the S

In the end all she wanted from me was sex, and boring sex at that. She was afraid to let anyone past her emotional guard and never had a real relationship before. And when I tried to show her what that's about I got suddenly dumped via email with a bunch of empty platitudes. I'm sure she was doing a new guy the next morning.

[shattered night]

Whoa.

I could possibly write a novel on INTJ/ISTJ relationships.

My long-term ex (We dated for nearly 4 years, and have not completely ruled out the possibility of getting back together sometime), and current best friend, is an ISTJ.

So, yeah, I think the ISTJ/INTJ combo works. Obviously it has it's pitfalls. We are both emotionally distant bastards, which was usually ok with both of us, though did more often become an issue for me than it did for him. It takes a lot of work, in some ways.

But, it's also easily the most comfortable relationship I have with anyone. I don't have to pretend to feel things which I do not around him. I do not have to censor my tendency to be a prick, because he can handle it. And, we respect each other, damn it, which is more than either of us can say for 98% of people we meet.

And yes, they are very similar personality types, so there isn't a lot of room for growth, but still...I think there is some. In this particular relationship, I believe I provide the silliness in his life, though not so much as to annoy him, while he provides the considerateness in mine, and inspires me to think more of other peoples wants/needs as I am usually just in my own little world.

And I suppose I do get bored with him sometimes. But I just have to remind myself that bored is better than annoyed, and retreat into my head for awhile, or throw myself into other friendships for a bit...and my physical/mental distance does not bother him. In fact, I often suspect I am not gone enough for his comfort.

Oh! We did live together for a brief period, and it was not unbearable, but he was exceptionally anal. I am fairly anal as well, but he takes it to a whole new level. So, you may have to cater to some very meticulous quirks, but if you can hang with that it's really not so bad.

[mind_wander]

Haha. How much of that was analogy and how much was real? :)

1. I'm thinking the S/N difference is really hard. My mind is focused on the past and present. Yours is focused on the future. We make great partners for a project, but in a relationship? Hum.

2. I have a friend that's an INTJ. We both get along really well. I think it's the Te that makes us look at the world logically so we get along on that front. However, she's more imaginative than me. Take for example, our varying experiences in our classes. I had to read something in front of the class, and got in trouble for being too "thorough." She had to write a paper, and got in trouble for generalizing too much. I can see it when I talk to her, that I take a lot of what she says literally.

3. She said in one class that she was making "yo mama" jokes at work and offended someone whose mother passed away. As soon as I heard her say that she was even making those jokes, my interest in her faded a bit because I just saw those jokes as childish. The fact that she was interested in those jokes bothered me more than the fact that she offended someone.

Recently, I am working and sitting with a married female ISTJ. She admired my previous work and I had to move because one side of the room is a loud box. So I asked nicely to my supervisor about my intj side-effects[I even got a option to move out of the room] and had it moved next to her. I wanted to contribute more in a group effort because this is what I lack? Plus, I am not good at socializing skills. Maybe learning something new.

Back to no.1; it is very difficult to tell the difference between the S/N. Although, its similar someone understand all the details, while the other see the surroundings. The end result should be the same. We'd agree most of the times, so there won't be a fight. It's difficult to tell someone said something is literal or non-literal. To make communications much more clearer before it happens explain if Do you really meant what had been said or not? [Note: Both agreed on this it's your judgement call 50/50 chance]

No.2: My female ISTJ will mentioned about the highest score, while I don't really pay attention to it. I didn't ignore her importance of high rankings. But I do harbor on this if you really wanted to be the true no.1 then follow my instructions specs planned out made specially for just you. Then, no one can beat you except for me. I understand the reason why? I don't need to enforce it. I made a honest comment,"There will be someone better than you out there. So there is no true no.1 person."

No.3: As mentioned, jokes are hard to tell from apart because we are too literal sometimes. It might be too cold or just for the spare moments. I don't mind working with an istj because there will be times where an istj gets some N once or twice. Might be wondering how come? Yeah, the frustration does comes out and shows. For Intjs, we tend to mellow the frustrations. ISTJs my guess doesn't mind showing it. Intellect is very important on their priority list too, as well do we. Who wanted to answered the same question over and over again? Seriously.

So far, I am cool with ISTJs, if they needed space. I glad to give it to him/her. Suggest a nice spot to go to.

[dogwoodlover]

I was wondering how INTJs feel about dating ISTJs? It seems like this is an unlikely paring, though as an ISTJ myself I have many close relationships with both INTJs and INTPs (my father is an INTJ). Have any INTJs had a relationship with ISTJs, if so how did that work out? What were some of the pitfalls and what were the benefits? Does anyone know if there is an ISTJ forum?

I had an ISTJ roommate for three semesters, and while we certainly were not romantically interested (:D), he was a great friend and an awesome roommate. We got along quite well, which I think attests to a certain degree of compatibility between ISTJs and INTJs.

[Liason]

hmm. well the only ISTJ I know of is my mother and were constantly arguing over petty things. She realises most of the time I don't beleive I did anything wrong when she punishes me and I realize that punishment does not show results for myself when I know I did not do anything wrong and endure the punishment. She has started to realize that I don't think I did anything wrong, however she still isn't sure what exactly she should do in this situation.

[umm]

I tend to think that when ISTJs and INTJs are equals in a relationship or friendship they can coexist very easily and stress free. Both value directness, competence, and loyalty. They also easily respect and understand the other's autonomy and need for space.

Any parental relationship, regardless of type, will be more difficult simply because there is an imbalance of power and experience. The dynamics in peer-to-peer relationships are very different from parent-to-child.

[Storm]

Obviously, from the above posts it is possible for INTJ/ISTJ relationship to work out.
But, for the fun of it, here's my personal experience with the relationship.
One my best friends is an ISTJ, and we get alone extraordinary well. We share lots of jokes, and like to go on "adventures" together. We are also both intelligent and can have fun conversations.
However, we tried dating, and it just didn't work. He seemed to become a different person in the relationship.

And here is where I'm going to bring in the gender difference.
I think male ISTJ and female INTJ is much less likely to work than female ISTJ and male INTJ.
The ISTJ tends to beleive in traditional gender roles. This works out great if you're a male INTJ, you have someone to cook and clean for you and will let you be in charge. However, if your a female INTJ with a male ISTJ, watch out! He may want you to act the traditional female role and let him "wear the pants."

Oh, and the Hamburger Helper scenario is the most hilarious literal analogy I have read in a while. It's so true!

[wotrabbit]

Man, I'm so glad this thread exists. I recently entered into a relationship with an ISTJ (me = female INTJ). I've never has this experience of being so similar to a person yet having such polar opposite interests and viewpoints before (that seems almost contradictory...). It sometimes feels like we're either freakishly similar, or wildly opposite but really not much in between those. We get along pretty well and have a similar sense of humor so we keep each other laughing and also we're both information junkies so we're always trading interesting information.

Despite the positives, the biggest division between us is that he enjoys doing mainstream things whereas I am a contrarian who tends to purposely avoid doing what the majority does. He is a total sucker for celebrating things like holidays and insists that it's the traditions and having common goals with a larger group (whether it be politics, sports, whatever) is very important, even if done ironically. I don't see the big deal with holidays or the importance of camaraderie with a group, not just because I'm introverted but because I'm an arrogant critical-thinking snob who looks down on the sheeple and their silly oblivious ways (hehe, sort of kidding...sort of...). Strangely enough, my ISTJ is even more introverted than me, yet he values so much this whole celebrating holidays/involve yourself in mainstream traditions.

For those who are more brushed up on the nuances of MB types -- what letter or letter combination is the cause of this difference between us. Is it the S vs. N, or something else? Also, is contrarianism and/or a disdain or skepticism for mainstream traditions a commonly found trait in the INTJ population or is it just me?

[Storm]

From what I've read, the INTJ is much more likely than a lot of other types to look at a tradition and ask "Why?" critically. If he/she doesn't find a suitable reason for its existence, it gets changed or tossed aside. I am actually clueless as to why more people don't do this, it seems natural to me.
Anyway, I'm still mighty skeptical of the whole MB typing thing, but then I read a post like yours. You could be describing the relationship with my ISTJ friend exactly. Freaky.

[Synamon]

Man, I'm so glad this thread exists. I recently entered into a relationship with an ISTJ (me = female INTJ). I've never has this experience of being so similar to a person yet having such polar opposite interests and viewpoints before (that seems almost contradictory...). It sometimes feels like we're either freakishly similar, or wildly opposite but really not much in between those. We get along pretty well and have a similar sense of humor so we keep each other laughing and also we're both information junkies so we're always trading interesting information.

Despite the positives, the biggest division between us is that he enjoys doing mainstream things whereas I am a contrarian who tends to purposely avoid doing what the majority does. He is a total sucker for celebrating things like holidays and insists that it's the traditions and having common goals with a larger group (whether it be politics, sports, whatever) is very important, even if done ironically. I don't see the big deal with holidays or the importance of camaraderie with a group, not just because I'm introverted but because I'm an arrogant critical-thinking snob who looks down on the sheeple and their silly oblivious ways (hehe, sort of kidding...sort of...). Strangely enough, my ISTJ is even more introverted than me, yet he values so much this whole celebrating holidays/involve yourself in mainstream traditions.

For those who are more brushed up on the nuances of MB types -- what letter or letter combination is the cause of this difference between us. Is it the S vs. N, or something else? Also, is contrarianism and/or a disdain or skepticism for mainstream traditions a commonly found trait in the INTJ population or is it just me?
Yes, it's the S vs N.

SJ's value tradition very strongly. Questioning tradition is an INTJ trait. Sounds like a bad fit, however, on the plus side, if things make sense they are usually acceptable to INTJs. So you two can probably work out some compromises, the fact that something is important to him can be enough to get you to accept some of those traditions, for his sake.

I have an SJ husband and have to make these kinds of compromises all the time. Some traditions are actually not so bad, really. :laugh: He compromises too, and accepts that there are some I just cannot embrace, so it's up to him to send out birthday cards, and forgive me when I forget our anniversary, etc.

[zudusu]

I'm learning so much from this thread :) As the ISTJ wife to an INTJ, I most certainly am in charge of keeping the checkbook balanced to the penny, paying all the bills ON TIME and making sure the kids are in bed at a regular, decent time. If I've ever been late to work, there must have been an amazing reason. I honestly can't remember it happening. Ever.

However, the holiday traditions thing has me stumped. It must just be me, but I HATE holiday traditions. I could happily do away with all holidays, as well as birthday and anniversary celebrations. I never send cards and only buy presents for children. My husband buys for everyone, including the neighbor kids. Also, my INTJ husband is the most boring sexual partner! I'd love to try new things, but after 18 years of attempts I've pretty much given up. I certainly don't feel any draw to traditional male/female roles and am quite comfortable being in charge of my household. As for the "meat helper" I have to admit that I'd probably not think to make Tuna Helper with chicken. BUT, my INTJ husband would NEVER do that. He might add a bag of frozen veggies or a different spice, but he'd never make tuna helper with chicken. LOL.

[Nihilum]

After reading this thread...Sriv, you had better watch out, eh?

[Aurelia]

I'm an INTJ male and I live with an ISTJ girl and we've been dating for 9 years, living together about 2-3.

Our relationship is quite silly sometimes, but it works and I think it will work for the long haul. The N/S difference is certainly difficult at times. But I like the difference. Where I'm the messy, genius, planner-type who envisions our future together and figures out how it will work, she's working "behind the scenes", paying the bills on time, keeping the house tidy, cooking, etc. She's very practical and loyal and low-maintenance and I really love and appreciate that about her.


As I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum, my dad is an ISTJ and my mom is an INTJ. They have a rock-solid marriage of 29 years.

Of course, they aren't without their conflicts. I think it really is the S/N thing that is most difficult for them. My mom can dream up complex goals and possibilities (starting a business, investing, ways to raise the kids) and my dad will fixate on the details he doesn't like.

Other than that ... it is their love and commitment and strength of character that has kept them together. And I admire that about them.

That's the truth. The N/S barrier is really difficult to deal with, but when both partners are mature and they have the will to stay together and commit, things will go fine.

INTJoe described the relationship my husband (who is an ISTJ) and I have perfectly. We have been together for almost 7 years now. The N/S conflict matters less as the years go on. In order for any relationship to work, the focus has to be on how you can overcome differences rather than on the irritating qualities of your significant other.

[tleegold]

I am an INTJ male, and my wife is an ISTJ. I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread. We have a fairly "comfortable" relationship, where she does a lot of the practical things around the house while I spend a lot of time planning and analyzing how we could improve things.

The S/N difference does produce some misunderstandings. At worst, there are times when I think we lack a "deep" relationship - different priorities and difference understandings of things that we encounter. However, we overall have a strong relationship - I think, in part, because we help support the other's weaknesses - I definitely like having someone organized to remind me to pay the bills. Also, my wife is a relatively open minded and intellectual ISTJ (she is a scientist with a PhD), and I have learned, over the years, to appreciate the sensory aspects of life, including some traditions.

[Ace1337]

I think that is not a good combination. So similar yet SOO different.

[tleegold]

By the way.. I definitely agree with the cooking stories. I love to improvise - I use a recipe as a "guideline" the first time I make something. Once I understand the role of the ingredients, I make changes to fit what I think would be better (or what I have in the fridge/cupboard) and quickly develop my own recipe. Although my ISTJ wife does a good job of cooking, it makes her nervous... she needs to have a precise recipe that she follows exactly.

[azwildcat2001]

I've (INTJ) been married to my ISTJ husband for almost five years. We have an amazing relationship. We really cool discussions about stuff because we are both such strong T's we bounce ideas off of each other from our unique S vs. N perspectives. My husband is sometimes floored at how I put ideas together.

I do have to agree with the initial post that sometimes ISTJ can be so stick-in-the-mud as to how they want to do things. I always called it a genetic stubborness, but it's probably also his personality. There are also times when I say something and I feel like it went right over his head. Not becuause he's dumb, he's just not thinking about something the same way I do. We also have fights about the stupidest stuff sometimes, but the good thing is that because he's ISTJ, he won't let us go to bed angry. Which can be aggravating in the moment but I'm thankful for it.

Although, for my husband and I, I'm the one who is more organized and I have to make sure that he remembers to do stuff like pay the bills. Which since I'm an INTJ its a little like the blind leading the blind, but we make it work.

[Mesonoxian]

I can sum-up this difference in views with Hamburger Helper. There are Hamburger Helper, Chicken Helper, and Tuna Helper, all of which are just noodles and sauce without the meat, even if the noodles and sauce are the same, i.e. Tuna Helper Alfredo and Chicken Helper Alfredo. As an INTJ, I see all of them as just "Meat Helper", and I will interchange them as desired. I'm even daring enough to use turkey, shrimp, or crab. I first noticed this phenomenon when I had a box of Tuna Helper Alfredo and proceeded to prepare it with chicken. My ISTJ friend was totally bewildered and horrified by this. He does everything he can to convince me that I should follow the directions on the box. He even questions whether I should be using ground or canned meat, and it horrifies him if I adjust the cooking time to take into consideration that his stove and oven burn a little hot. Sometimes I cook the meat on the stove and then finish the "Meat Helper" according to the microwave instructions. The box doesn't say that it's okay to do that!
I had a needed laugh at this, thanks. It's good.
The cooking time you are sensible in adjusting, IMHO.
I have always worked under the assumption that the flavor or sauce packets are designed to harmonize with the variety of meat cited on the box (which may be purchased in the form that you desire).
So you may get seafood flavored sauce with the Fish Helper which might not taste good with the Cow Helper. Or Fowl Helper.
So I'd consider that Turkey was Ok to put in the Fowl Helper or Lamb or Pork in the Cow Helper, or Scallops in the Fish Helper.
But not Hamburger in the Tuna Helper because of the particular blend of flavors in the sauce.
But if is edible, no one will really care.

[MsPronunciation]

My dad is an ISTJ who recently scored 100% J. He drives me completely bonkers. I have wished so many times that I could understand what's going on in his head, but I don't think I ever will. In my experience, he's unable to have a conversation without saying something critical or competitive; however, he seems to believe he is the pinnacle of humility. (He was raised Catholic and later became a Protestant. As a child, he slept in a burlap sack during Lent of his own volition and planned to become a priest.)

Before he and my mom (an INFJ) got married, his mother warned my mom, "There's something you need to know about ---. He's just so RIGHT." My parents divorced after nearly 25 years of marriage. My mom was the one who wanted out.

My dad is particularly critical of my ENFP husband and my sister's ESFP boyfriend. He makes subtle snide comments in their presence to imply that they're not very intelligent or that they're immoral or maybe have a screw loose. Needless to say, I'm sure one of the major reasons I chose an ENFP partner was my desire for the polar opposite of my father.

I also had a supervisor once who I believe is an ISTJ. Working for her was awful. She was disturbingly passive aggressive.

I did have a close friendship with an ISTJ for a few years, but we've since grown apart. I wouldn't mind seeing her again...we had a very weird and violent sense of humor in common.

So I'll have to say there may be something to the previous comments about power dynamics. An ISTJ who is an equal can be a good companion, but ISTJ bosses and parents (based on my tiny sampling) have great power to torment an INTJ (namely, this INTJ). That's not to say all or even most ISTJs in positions of authority are like my dad or former supervisor. I can't think of any other ISTJs I've known, though, aside from the three I mentioned.

One of the worst aspects of my relationship with my dad, too, is that for years he's been the only SJ in a family of NFs and NTs, so I've felt bad that his relationships with all of us were so filled with misunderstandings, especially since he's someone for whom family and tradition are extremely important. At least he has a new girlfriend now who I think might be an SJ!

[Saturnine]

Old thread resurrection.

This is probably a bit off a tangent with my query but I thought it fits in with this thread the most (rather than creating yet another thread). I currently like what I believe is to be an ISTJ . But I'm curious as to how do ISTJ displays that they like someone?

And to contribute to the thread properly itself, my mother exhibits strong ISTJ characteristics and like you MsPronunciation we don't really get along quite well, thus the powers of torment exist quite strongly between me and my mother. But yet two of my really good friends are ISTJs and we get along really well.

[Storm]

ISTJs usually will exhibit that they like someone through traditional channels of romance. So, if they are male, they would ask you out on a date, hold doors for you, bring you gifts, pay for stuff, etc.

If they are female, they will openly flirt. On a date, they will appreciate traditional gifts such as flowers and traditional dating venues (dinner and a movie).

[Chronos]

Often times, I feel as though she doesn't appreciate what I bring to the table. I'm viewed as a sort of lazy, messy, unhelpful dude who gets away with way too much as she would put it.

Ding.

Another area we struggle is that she's always pointing out my shortcomings, and I NEVER point out hers. She knows it doesn't bother me much, but I do find it super annoying after a while. One day I just asked her "when was the last time I told you something you weren't good at, or tried to change you?" She couldn't think of one time, and I had to explain to her that I love her as she is, and she should do the same. I told her I know damn well what my shortcomings are, but having her point them out all the time is destructive and inefficient.

Ding.

Your whole post (and a bunch of other posts in this thread, but yours especially) rings a lot of bells with me, but these two points are especially dead on. Eerily so. This describes my ISTJ ex's underlying attitude towards me (as I perceived it, anyway) to a tee. Of course, I can also relate to a lot of good points about the ISTJ type that you and others bring up, but ultimately, the overwhelming feeling of not being truly appreciated for my good sides, while constantly being reminded of my bad sides was too much - even knowing her type didn't help that much; it didn't change the way she made me feel. Maybe if I had seen a thread like this back then, it would have made me realise even better just how little she could help her behaviour towards me - but I doubt it, really. I just became more and more convinced that she didn't really like the 'real' me, and that she was constantly trying to mould me into something more to her liking, while I never had any major complaints about her myself, and found her to be just fine as she was. More and more, I put up a sort of mask around her, distancing myself from her, treating her as a friend (and not a particularily close one, at that) more than a lover, almost morbidly afraid of letting her catch so much as a glimpse of my true colours. In the end, I found that I was pretty much living a lie, and that I would never be truly happy with her, let alone self-actualised - and that she was pretty much in the same position. So I ended it, and I don't regret that decision.

Anyway, on analysing the source of these problems, one finds that it really boils down to the differences between temperaments; NT vs. SJ - when one considers just how fundamentaly different these two temperaments are from each other, the fact that INTJ and ISTJ differ by 'only one' letter becomes much more significant.

I see the NT/SJ pairing as somewhat troublesome overall. NTs are abstract and usually very independent and self-sufficient at their cores (for instance, viewing romantic relationships as at least somewhat logically-based choice that reinforces the rest of their lives, rather than an essential basic need that they feel empty without), while SJs are down to earth, tend to view relationships after a more rigid and socially standardised fashion, and basically 'need to be needed' (in every sense of that term, especially when it comes to regular, somewhat standard reminders that they are indeed needed and appreciated; something NTs tend to be bad at, since their drive for efficiency and rationalism tends to lead them to cut the fat when it comes to tokens of affection and appreciation - the 'default' mode is that they are happy and content, and will tend to speak up only when they have something to complain about that needs fixing - see the story of Einstein's first words (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.-anecdotes) for a perfect example).

There's a whole host of problems that could stem from these fundamental differences in communication styles and core needs, but of course, any problem can be overcome, given the proper willingness and effort - but for me at least, I'm not sure it's really worth it. SJs just aren't my cup of tea, nor I theirs. I don't much savour the thought of getting into another relationship that has a negative feedback loop where my lack of steady tokens of appreciation leads to her being unhappy with me, which leads to her expressing said unhappiness through constant critisisms of my character (instead of simply understanding and expressing just what it is that she's unhappy about, which would be the NT way of going about it - but which I realise probably seems way too contrived and artificial to other temperaments, who like to take a more emotional and organic approach to relationships (this applies not least to SJs and their adherence to social norms), and I get that, really - if you want tokens of appreciation, you don't want to have to ask for them explicitly, as this would kind of ruin the whole point), which leads to me withdrawing further, etc. Because I just know that this is most likely what a relationship with another SJ would be like, even if I tried actively to break the loop.

It's remarkably hard to change your core values and the behaviour that stems from them. It's much easier to find and be with someone who just, well, shares those values, and truly gets you and isn't bothered by who you are, deep down.

[Dave C C]

Every relationship based on consideration between both partners will work, personality profiles do not matter.

[raz1337]

I admire their indifference to their environment and sharp intellect. It's what makes me keep being attracted to INTJ girls. ><

[Chronos]

I admire their indifference to their environment and sharp intellect. It's what makes me keep being attracted to INTJ girls. ><

Heh, indifference to my environment is definitely one of the things that my ex did not find appealing about me. She called it 'lack of respect for one's environment'.

[raz1337]

Heh, indifference to my environment is definitely one of the things that my ex did not find appealing about me. She called it 'lack of respect for one's environment'.

I'm just also very introverted, so I tend to look for other people that are the same way that aren't as attached to the world, but see it as a game instead with close friends.

[Xaleph]

I'm married to an ISTJ and I have to say it's absolutely amazing. Yes, the issues that have been mentioned here I've found several to be true - but the benefits that both of us provide, as long as the differences are understood and respected, outweigh these issues. Just remember they like specifics, even if those specifics change as long as you tell them exactly what you have planned (or make something up) it works (again you can make it up - they don't mind you changing it, but they like to know in advance).

[dontlookback]

In my experience,it doesn't work. But hey,one douche-y ISTJ guy can't sum up all ISTJ's in the World. So :thumbsup:

[paperclip]

My mentor is an ISTJ ... which I figured out after many months of hypothesizing. And its great... He has attention to details and timelines, that really I could care less about. He is keeping me on track to attend a fantastic grad school, and is able to think about things from an institutional point of view, something I readily dismiss if I don't feel like it suits me. Though he can be very self-righteous and even...snooty at times.. most of his insights compliment my N in ways I wouldn't have thought of.

Both of us are interested in a very small field of study ... so that probably helps with the ''boring'' conversation. He is a bit stiff though, and never discusses his family life but schedules time with them in a manner I find abhorrent.

His ISTJ works well for me because I often need that extra kick to fulfill my potential. He sees me as his project -- but then again, I can go home....ISTJ in a relationship OH LORD!