"In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God"

[TheLastMohican]

73% (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) of Americans claim 100% certainty that God exists.
91% (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) are in favor of leaving "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.
90% (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) approve of the inscription "In God We Trust" on their currency.

Can any of this be defended?

[Henry]

73% (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) of Americans claim 100% certainty that God exists.
91% (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) are in favor of leaving "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.
90% (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) approve of the inscription "In God We Trust" on their currency.

Can any of this be defended?

Note that a lot of the people that don't believe in God aren't opposed to it. I don't believe in god, but I'm comfortable allowing other people their traditions.

Its namby-pamby to claim that your rights are trampled on because of "In God We Trust" is on the penny or in the pledge. Differing views about the world are everywhere,and when no one is harmed by peaceable expression of religion, why are you concerned?

[PHS Philip]

They were stuck in during the cold war under the theory that "they're evil godless commies, so we should be religious." Even setting aside the obviously flawed logic, the cold war's over. I want my wall of separation back.





PHS Philip added to this post, 2 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Note that a lot of the people that don't believe in God aren't opposed to it.

Er, what? I'm confused by this. The US is only 5-10% atheist.

Its namby-pamby to claim that your rights are trampled on because of "In God We Trust" is on the penny or in the pledge. Differing views about the world are everywhere,and when no one is harmed by peaceable expression of religion, why are you concerned?

The establishment clause was supposed to drive "a wall of separation." That wall of separation is there for a reason. The government shouldn't be part of a peaceable expression of religion. Like I said, I want my wall back, please.

[blueback]

namby-pamby
LOL. Is that a technical term?

Seriously though, calling someone "namby-pamby" is in itself "namby-pamby". Which means either it's not perjorative or you are masochistic. I kind of wish I could take the SAT again. . .just to see what I get now.

[TheLastMohican]

Differing views about the world are everywhere,and when no one is harmed by peaceable expression of religion, why are you concerned?

Does the fact that it does not cause physical harm to non-theists make it right? This is a matter of the neutrality of government that is supposed to be one of the key principles of our democracy. All tax-paying citizens are contributing to the inscription of "In God We Trust," though many of them do not agree with that statement. It is respecting the establishment of a religion, something that the Constitution prohibits.

[Karamazov]

The establishment clause was supposed to drive "a wall of separation." That wall of separation is there for a reason. The government shouldn't be part of a peaceable expression of religion. Like I said, I want my wall back, please.

Its always been there; people have always been chipping away at it. They play around with the semantics, start arguing about whether the Constitution is a "Living Constitution" or an originalist one. Much like equality, it was largely ignored due to economic and social norms.

[TheLastMohican]

Er, what? I'm confused by this. The US is only 5-10% atheist.

For years the total was around 8%, but recently it has been rising, with some polls showing more than 10%.

[Henry]

Er, what? I'm confused by this. The US is only 5-10% atheist.

Last number I heard was 3%.

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I supposed I'm speaking from experience. The only 2 athiests I know personally aren't petty enough to be worried about "In God We Trust".

The establishment clause was supposed to drive "a wall of separation." That wall of separation is there for a reason. The government shouldn't be part of a peaceable expression of religion. Like I said, I want my wall back, please.

I believe the legal term is "diminutive".

LOL. Is that a technical term?

Seriously though, calling someone "namby-pamby" is in itself "namby-pamby". Which means either it's not perjorative or you are masochistic. I kind of wish I could take the SAT again. . .just to see what I get now.

Not that anyone cares, but apparently you would still do rather poorly on the SAT:
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To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

And that looks a bit like self-congratulation for knowing what "perjorative" and "masochistic" mean, which is an epic failure on a couple levels.

Does the fact that it does not cause physical harm to non-theists make it right? This is a matter of the neutrality of government that is supposed to be one of the key principles of our democracy. All tax-paying citizens are contributing to the inscription of "In God We Trust," though many of them do not agree with that statement. It is respecting the establishment of a religion, something that the Constitution prohibits.

You feel harmed by "In God We Trust"?

You feel financially slighted by the fraction of a thousandth of a percent of government spending that goes towards "In God We Trust" on pennies?

[Undead Bonzi]

I think that given the trends of our government in the last quarter-century the phrase should actually be changed to 'God help us all'. Even as an agnostic I would get a chuckle out of that one.

Other contenders would be:

#1. 'In a non-denominational higher entity do some of us maybe trust'

#2. 'I'm rich biatch!'

#3. 'Made in China'

[Doc]

I'm not a religious person, but I still voted for supporting it. If there was an option for "don't care" I would have chosen that though. I see the In God We Trust and Under God "issues" as being non-issues. Right now our nation is facing economic problems, falling education scores, and what I'd consider to be foreign-relation troubles. We don't need to be arguing over what is printed on our currency. If it's not broke, don't try to fix it.

[Zedicus]

I think that given the trends of our government in the last quarter-century the phrase should actually be changed to 'God help us all'. Even as an agnostic I would get a chuckle out of that one.

Other contenders would be:

#1. 'In a non-denominational higher entity do some of us maybe trust'

#2. 'I'm rich biatch!'

#3. 'Made in China'

If I can't get the coffee cleaned from my keyboard, I may send you a bill. :cheesy: I don't know why but I found that the funniest post I have yet to read on this forum.


Anyway, I would have picked the "Don't care" option if it was there but since it wasn't I had to pick "support neither".

[Avid]

Eh, my only problem is it shows obvious favoritism. We are a diverse country with many different religions who don't believe in a god they believe in some other named being or none at all. Better term would have been Creator. Religious people could attribute it to their dieties and atheists could have decided it was Earth (or whatever) Are those printed words really a big deal? Probably not. Only it cements some weird belief that SOME Christian people believe and/or perpetuate which is that they are more important and Better than everybody else. In the end though I don't care that much and I'm more annoyed with the added "under god" part in the dang allegiance and I left it out everytime I had to say it and people noticed and the atheist toture began!

[Moriarty]

It doesn't really concern me much at all. It's pretty much a non-issue.

Just for the sake of discussion, though, putting that inscription on our currency certainly "begs the question", doesn't it?

As for the Pledge, I more often hear the words "one nation under God" used in some kind of pseudoscientific defense of creationism or proselytism than when someone is actually reciting the Pledge. I think the addition of it to the Pledge, the history of which a great deal of our countrymen seem to be in the dark about, has confused many people about the separation of church and state.

Having said that, I still don't really care enough about it to even notice most of the time.

[Monte314]

I think the legal argument of proponents has centered on the notion that these are expressions, not of religious conviction, but American historic cultural distinctives. This the courts have upheld.

[Tocsin]

I'm in favor of the "made in China" substitution as long as it includes "all your base are belong to us" (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) as well.

Maybe we should show some respect for other religious perspectives by including some other popular religious slogans on our currency, such as:

Deus Vult

Allahu Akbar

Gott Mit Uns

[Monte314]

I'm in favor of the "made in China" substitution as long as it includes "all your base are belong to us" (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) as well.

Maybe we should show some respect for other religious perspectives by including some other popular religious slogans on our currency, such as:

Deus Vult

Allahu Akbar

Gott Mit Uns

These are all theistic, so are covered by "In God We Trust".

[Tocsin]

These are all theistic, so are covered by "In God We Trust".

I'm glad someone noticed the similarities between the U.S. claiming some sort of divine providence and other fanatical and fascist movements also claiming forms of divine providence... which is a good reason why we (the U.S.) shouldn't.

It is also interesting (and has been noted previously) that both "In God We Trust" and "One nation under God" were added to the fabric of our nation during times of war, fear, paranoia, and self-righteousness - when common sense and notions of impartial consideration and fairness were at low points.

[Motor Jax]

i support both...

[jesse]

I would rather not have clear hints toward religion on money nor in any pledges. Oh well, it's not like they are going anywhere any time soon. Secondly, it is wasted effort to even bother finding a way to remove such phrases from coinage and other mumbo jumbo. ...although you could resort to checks and credit cards if such phrases bother you to no end :p

[sriv]

I disagree with the whole concept of The Pledge of Allegiance and would relate it to communistic parade slogans.
I'm not going to ask for a redress of greivances over it though.

[Valiyn]

On one hand, if there is a God.....it sure as hell wouldn't hurt to have some extra sucking up when things get really bad.

On the other, if there isn't a God...then it really doesn't matter one way or the other.

[PHS Philip]

On one hand, if there is a God.....it sure as hell wouldn't hurt to have some extra sucking up when things get really bad.

On the other, if there isn't a God...then it really doesn't matter one way or the other.

Because Pascal's wager hasn't been destroyed time and again or anything. Wait a sec...

[superjo562]

neither. separation of church and state...

should be: in cpi indexes and military-industrial complexes we trust...

[Antares]

I don't care. Leave it, change it, it's the same to me.

[MindOverMatter]

I understand this line of thinking and agree, it has no reason to be in either in the first place. It just isn't a top concern.

[TheLastMohican]

I understand this line of thinking and agree, it has no reason to be in either in the first place. It just isn't a top concern.

I am of the opinion that something like this, while not a top concern, is worth a bit of effort to correct. Anything contrary to our basic principles of democracy upon which our government is based should be separated from government support, and our currency is certainly representative of our government.

[dragonsscout]

I'm religious (though would probably qualify as Jewish deist) and don't like the references to God in the government. It also bugs me that Congress made Christmas a national holiday (and that they took a day off for Rosh Hashanah. I took half a day off and didn't expect anyone else to!). Like others, it's not my top concern, but every little bit counts.

[Sir Paul]

Aren't you guys forgetting all the diplomatic implications of appearing to be a religious nation. By merely claiming such a position you open the country to ties with various other powers, for example, the Pope, Delay Lama, Church of England, Various Orthodox European nations not forgetting Israel. There is so much more than just appeasing the citizens of any country.

[Tocsin]

Considering the collapse of the American economy and the value of the dollar perhaps we should scrap paper currency and "In God We Trust," and get back to "In Gold We Trust."

[DrEast]

I'm actually opposed to the pledge of allegiance with or without the "under God" clause. It supports a patriotic collectivist utilitarianism, exceedingly harmful to liberty.