Forer Effect?

[Naokohiro]

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Okay, so I read about this, and I wonder if this could be true...
So, basically it's saying that personality traits determined by things like astrology are easily believed, because your "unique" personality actually applies to a large number of people(almost anyone).
Do you think that the MBTI test could be like this?
One thing that I've noticed is completely off and could be part of the Forer effect is the Jung descriptions. It's description for an intj was completely off from who I am...(For example, it says INTJ's are pessimistic)
Demonstration test of the Forer effect: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Video demonstrating the Forer effect: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The same video, but on Youtube: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Videos:
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Post more videos if you want...

[Max T]

This 'forer effect' is an interesting NT issue.

Based on our responses to astrology (valid? no= 94%):
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.. it suggests that INTJ's can discriminate between traits that apply to us INTJ alone and traits that can apply to most people. That implies that forer would not apply to MBTI.

A few other thoughts might also suggest that forer does not apply to MBTI:
- percentage distribution of types are uneven e.g. INTJ- 1-2%, ESFx- >10%(astrology signs are presumably 1/12th of population)- adds 'credibility' at least since we know some personalities are a minority.
- for its commercial success, pop astrology in the back of magazines need to be changed every week (or daily). MBTI has no such demand placed on it, reducing likelihood of types overlapping and general confusion and forer effect.
- astrology appears to be more vulnerable to misreadings by its thousands of 'practitioners', whereas MBTI has more disciplined prescription (e.g. no hundred variations of questionnaire), aiding trait description consistency and diffference between trait descriptions and so reducing forer.


Away from forer effect, there's the error with any self-attribution test that you end up selecting the MBTI type that you most admire.
"I want to behave/admire people that behave as some of the MBTI questions ask, therefore I admire INTJs and, low and behold, I think I am an INTJ because I really like the description!"
Kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Seriously, I want to be more decisive (J) and find other poeple who spot patterns (N) to be interesting.

So perhaps the best way to deliver MBTI is to have close relatives fill the questions for us. But I don't think any MBTI questionnaire version has been made for this 3rd party judgement.

[Naokohiro]

Okay, so the Forer Effect doesn't apply to the MBTI test, mainly because it is so in depth.
But, the Forer Efect is out there. I personally never believed in horoscopes or any of that, because they're not very accurate. But, many people fall for them, and it's probably just the affects of the Forer Effect. Because the descriptions are really vague and could apply to almost anyone.

[ChrisnOrbit]

So perhaps the best way to deliver MBTI is to have close relatives fill the questions for us. But I don't think any MBTI questionnaire version has been made for this 3rd party judgement.

Interesting. I would like to see something like this made but it would seem difficult to do. How can a test like that be made i wonder

[azelismia]

Interesting. I would like to see something like this made but it would seem difficult to do. How can a test like that be made i wonder


right, because you're relatives always KNOW the real you so terribly well.

My mother believes I am someone entirely different than I am because of my horoscope. She refuses to realise I am nothing like my horoscope because horoscopes are ALWAYS right...

according to my mothers horoscope vision of Me I am something like an esfj. (leo) Maybe Entp, it depends on which books she's reading what fits best.

[Erika Redmark]

I agree; they're completely different. The so-called "traits" of each zodiac sign are so vague and multifarious that sometimes they couldn't even all apply to one person.

[sriv]

MBTI, in the right hands, is definitely not completely the Forer effect. The biggest reason for which is that it it based on empirical data.

[Antares]

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It's an article on MBTI. Seriously though, I don't think N should be a 'sixth sense' thing. It implies ESP, like the ability to predict what's coming. I agree with Shermer and his people that the supposed predictive abilities of intuitives are actually lucky guesses. I've been doubting MBTI for ages now, but always found it more practical than Astrology or Enneagram. For example, whenever I debate my mom now, I know her stance on almost everything based off her type: ISFJ. Maybe it's because I know her too well, but I think MBTI has helped me loads.

[Noehelia]

I do not see an immediate relation of Forer effect with MBTI or even with astrology (I am not talking about the weekly astrological predictions in newspapers).
His example is so clear that it can describe almost all of people. It uses words like "some, at times, other times" and even if you do not agree with some of the statements there are others that do not let you discard the whole profile. Would I rely on something like that to accept that it really is my type? No. When we try to identify ourselves we do not just read one passage of text and say "That's it", we try to find tendencies that show a distinct difference with others.

[Marcus]

I think that there are good type decriptions associated with astrological signs. There are two inherent problems:
1. There are only 12 types and not 16.
2. It is believed that the date of birth determines the type.

Still, 12 types are a good approximation of 16, and horoscopes have a lot of built in tricks to refine the type. I basically think that types were around since humans exists, so it is a kind of logical that people observed these types and developed good descriptions, even if they had no scientific basis (that the MBTI lacks, too).

For example, Virgo is a good match for ISTJ.
Here is a list of Virgo traits from
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* Analytical / critical
* Precise / meticulous
* Orderly / methodical
* Practical
* Mental / intelligent / inquiring
* Responsible / reliable
* Perfectionistic
* Shrewd / witty
* Conventional / conservative
* Refined / polite
* Hygienic
* Reserved / cool / undemonstrative

Of course, the above list could have been fine tuned to the MBTI by clever astrologians, but something like it have been around for centuries.

PS: My mother also regularly reads the leo horoscope for me. BTW, her sign description matches her MBTI type (Taurus/ISFJ), so she might have found some truth there.

[Erika Redmark]

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. though, I don't think N should be a 'sixth sense' thing. It implies ESP, like the ability to predict what's coming.

Yeah, I think of N more as a "meta" thing, like taking a step back and thinking about sensory input (about the context, or whatever) rather than letting that be it.

And IMO, the "profiles" at the end of that article aren't very well written or a good example of what most of such profiles are like.

[Marcus]

N is about seeing patterns, but it is hard to define exactly what a pattern is.

It's sometimes seen as a sixth sense, because it is supposed to reside in the non-verbal right hemisphere and we might experience it as sudden and unexplicable realizations. Maybe the non N people rarely have insights and for them it is a kind of a mysterious sixth sense.

PS: I'm far from fully understanding the N, just trying to speak about it. :)

[cBorg]

N is about seeing patterns, but it is hard to define exactly what a pattern is.

It's sometimes seen as a sixth sense, because it is supposed to reside in the non-verbal right hemisphere and we might experience it as sudden and unexplicable realizations. Maybe the non N people rarely have insights and for them it is a kind of a mysterious sixth sense.

PS: I'm far from fully understanding the N, just trying to speak about it. :)

I think N could be also described as seeing and understanding systems. My boss keeps telling me this is a big strength for me...that I can see how everything fits together. It bridges the gap between people who understand the details only and those who only see the goals. N lets you connect them. I don't think of it as a sixth sense at all, its more about focusing on the synthesis of all the senses you receive.

As for the validity of MTBI...I don't see companies investing thousands of dollars to study astrological signs, but they go to great lengths to train sales people how to sell to different personality types.