McCain's Running Mate

[Functianalyst]

I saw where the two top choices are not going to be considered, but he has not made his selection. Interestingly Wikipedia has already declared that the VP selection will be:Sarah Heath Palin (born February 11, 1964) is the current Governor of Alaska, a former Miss Alaska runner-up, and a member of the Republican Party. She is the youngest and first female governor of Alaska. She is the Republican vice presidential candidate for the November 2008 election. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[ScurvyRose]

They were just where you saw it first. Apparently the word is out!

[Josh]

Such a blatantly transparent and shameless way to court women voters. His voting record is so anti woman it's ridiculous.

[ScurvyRose]

I am not impressed! Especially after reading To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[DrEast]

Be careful about putting "woman voters" in one big group. Female republicans (and female evangelicals) tend to be far, FAR more pro-life than their male counterparts, from my personal experience, whereas the more liberal philosophies tend to view a pro-life stance as "anti-woman." So yes, he's definitely trying to court republican women, but I doubt this choice is gonna sway any hard-core Clinton supporting females.

In any event, be very careful trying to divine anything about McCain from his "record." He'll do anything to increase power. He's one of the simplest politicians we've had in decades.

That said, this choice says this to me: He'd rather be president with a vice-president who's going to make herself a supreme headache to him for his entire term than not be president at all. The fact that he felt compelled to pick Palin, who would only have made it to his short list because of the vote-generating power of that name on the ticket, means that he realizes he's in pretty desperate straits.

[GuerrillaVoyage]

I am glued to CNN right now. This is amazing and the perfect pick for the Republicans. What's frightening to me is that I've been fiercely anti-republican for the past eight years, however the more I hear about Palin the more I find myself starting to tune into the Republican party and be interested. The Republicans hit a home run with this one. I personally cannot see myself voting republican considering how bad they've f***ed this country in the last eight years and I think McCain is absolutely the wrong man for the job but I'm doing something right now I never would've thought I would do by watching the RNC just to see what Palin is about.

Palin is really milfy too :p

[ScurvyRose]

Well she was Miss Alaska once upon a time!

[Josh]

LMAO. You can just say that's the main reason, no one will judge you.

[GuerrillaVoyage]

Well... I'm tuning in to listen to the Republicans right now because she has a 80% approval rating in Alaska right now, she has a reputation of being tough on corruption, she has a son going to Iraq, she's against gay marriage (which disgusts me) however she's upheld that gay couples get the same benefits as straight couples in Alaska (which to me means even if it's against her personal feelings, she'll do the right things) and she's a fiscal conservative. Also a lot of her personality traits appeal to me. I also have to think that the fact she hasn't been on a national political stage yet is a plus in my opinion (I'm that jaded on the system right now) and she has a reputation has a reformer. Plus she's a fierce Alaskan and I personally am fond of the Alaskan way of life. Depending on how she handles her speech and what she has to say and what her stance is on the drug war (The Drug War is one of my main issues) I may become a supporter of hers. Although the only way I'd vote Republican this election is if McCain dies before the vote.

Plus come on dude, don't tell me you wouldn't hit that. :laugh:

[SShack]

I'm intrigued by Palin mostly as an indication of the party's future. She does help McCain not just by reaching out to women, but also by reaching out to Gen Xer libertarian conservatives who are not happy with the GOP status quo. Those are the folks considering Obama and will cost McCain the election.

I don't think it will be enough to help McCain win. However, looking further into the future, it may be the first sign that the GOP will decide turn away from its neoconservative agenda and maybe head back to more old-fashioned small-government conservatism.

Of course, the GOP establishment isn't all that fond of McCain anyway, so if/when he loses, they might decide that the problem was that they weren't neoconservative enough.

[zibber]

This is clearly 100% strategic. It's transparent and will be generically criticised, but will probably turn out to be very smart. I appreciate and respect the move (but would still eat a bowl of rancid feces if that meant a Dem win).

[DrEast]

He got my vote: The voting bloc that would like to see a PRESIDENT Palin and is willing to gamble on a McCain heart attack.

Vote McCain-Stroke today!

[greenblob]

Hm... does McCain's family have a history of cancer, heart attack, or stroke? If it does, he just might get my vote.

[GuerrillaVoyage]

Wow... I can't believe she just praised Hilary. I'm going to need to see how she handles her campaign and how she does in the debates with Biden (I'm expecting a blood bath) but my first impressions of Palin are quite positive. I'm very cautious about her religion, and pro-life status but I like how independent she comes across and how she comes across as she'll do the right thing and work with the right people regardless of party lines. She also has a bit of an air-headed cheerleader quality but I'm okay with that. I really like how charismatic and self-confident she comes off as.

The Republicans just pulled off what I thought to be impossible 24 hours ago in that I'm paying attention and interested in where they're going.

However, time will tell. I really need more information and exposure and to see how she handles a national spotlight and pressure before I can throw my support behind her. And like I said, there's no way in hell I'll ever support McCain.

[ScurvyRose]

Hm... does McCain's family have a history of cancer, heart attack, or stroke? If it does, he just might get my vote.

He does turn 72 today!!

[SShack]

Based on a picture I just saw over at Reason.com's blog, she's also a better hunter than Cheney, heh. She also apparently killed that Bridge to Nowhere that became a symbol of pork-barrel excess, so she's got that going for her, too.

In the back of my mind, I've been speculating that either the first female president or the first openly gay president would turn out to be a Republican. I don't think that's going to happen this time, but keep an eye out for her in 2012 or 2016.

From what I'm reading, she is definitely more toward the libertarian streak of conservatism, theological considerations aside. We'll have to see.

[Josh]

Plus come on dude, don't tell me you wouldn't hit that.

Of course i would! I would do things to her that are only legal in Alaska...

He got my vote: The voting bloc that would like to see a PRESIDENT Palin and is willing to gamble on a McCain heart attack.

Vote McCain-Stroke today!

I think, and sincerely hope, you guys are joking.

She's definitely a better one as far as conservatives go, and who knows she might even do a good job as president. We'll have to wait for the analysts to start dissecting her life to see where she really stands. If it's true she had her sister's ex husband fired from the state troopers out of vindictiveness, then i definitely don't want a woman as emotional as that in control of the military. This is dangerous.

And to guerrilla voyage, if you ever want a change in this stupid war on drugs, do not ever vote for republicans. You think someone narrow minded enough to be pro life is going to do anything in this regard? At least Obama was a former pothead. One of my favorite quotes taken from his book and one i'm sure you'll love:

"Junkie. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man. Except the highs hadn't been about me trying to prove what a down brother I was. Not by then, anyway. I got high for just the opposite effect, something that could push questions of who I was out of my mind, something that could flatten out the landscape of my heart, blur the edges of my memory. I had discovered that it didn't make any difference whether you smoked reefer in the white classmate's sparkling new van, or in the dorm room of some brother you'd met down at the gym, or on the beach with a couple of Hawaiian kids who had dropped out of school and now spent most of their time looking for an excuse to brawl. You might just be bored, or alone. Everybody was welcome into the club of disaffection. And if the high didn't solve whatever it was that was getting you down, it could at least help you laugh at the world's ongoing folly and see through all the hypocrisy and bullshit and cheap moralism."
Another from 2004:

"The war on drugs has been an utter failure. I think that we need to rethink and decriminalize our marijuana laws. But I'm not somebody who believes in legalization of marijuana. What I do believe is that we need to rethink how we are operating in the drug wars, and I think that currently we are not doing a good job."

Yes he's done a little backpedaling recently, but this is only because he's intelligent enough to realize that if he were too open about it in the general election, the republicans would play it over and over, paint him as a darkie who wants to get everyone's kids to become stoners, and be met by nothing but cheers and applause by all the stupid sheep in this country.

I have a strong feeling that if he gets into office he will change these policies, if not in his first term, definitely in the second.

[GuerrillaVoyage]

Here's a good website if you're looking for more info on Mrs. Palin.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The reason I'm enthusiastic on Palin is that traditionally Alaskans have been relatively Anti-Drug War. At this moment I hope we have a Obama V. Palin election in 2012. However, I'm going mainly on what I feel and the information I have so my opinion is subject to change.

Man... that paragraph alone

"Junkie. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man. Except the highs hadn't been about me trying to prove what a down brother I was. Not by then, anyway. I got high for just the opposite effect, something that could push questions of who I was out of my mind, something that could flatten out the landscape of my heart, blur the edges of my memory. I had discovered that it didn't make any difference whether you smoked reefer in the white classmate's sparkling new van, or in the dorm room of some brother you'd met down at the gym, or on the beach with a couple of Hawaiian kids who had dropped out of school and now spent most of their time looking for an excuse to brawl. You might just be bored, or alone. Everybody was welcome into the club of disaffection. And if the high didn't solve whatever it was that was getting you down, it could at least help you laugh at the world's ongoing folly and see through all the hypocrisy and bullshit and cheap moralism."

Makes Obama my candidate. He seems to get it although his incredible ability to say nothing during this election worries me. However, I still think I'm going to vote for him. I'm just excited that the Republicans are finally getting away from the neo-conservatism that has f***ed this country for the last several years. Imagine actually having two competent functioning political parties in this country. I wish we had a Obama/Palin ticket.

[curiousjane]

What I find most interesting about this choice is that, no matter what happens, we are either going to end up with the first African-American president or the first female vice president.

Tentatively, without having read up on her, I see this as a good strategic move on McCain's part. It certainly made me sit up and take notice. And as a female smack dab in the middle of the demographic that would supposedly support this decision ...

Hmmm. Interesting, indeed.

[Henry]

I saw where the two top choices are not going to be considered, but he has not made his selection. Interestingly Wikipedia has already declared that the VP selection will be:

I figured McCain would have more integrity than picking this shamelessly-obvious affirmative action VP. -1

What I find most interesting about this choice is that, no matter what happens, we are either going to end up with the first African-American president or the first female vice president.

Tentatively, without having read up on her, I see this as a good strategic move on McCain's part. It certainly made me sit up and take notice. And as a female smack dab in the middle of the demographic that would supposedly support this decision ...

Hmmm. Interesting, indeed.p

Voting for people who look the same is the refuge of an ass. Vote for who's most capable and qualified, and I can assure you that this woman is not the most qualified.

I don't think it will be enough to help McCain win. However, looking further into the future, it may be the first sign that the GOP will decide turn away from its neoconservative agenda and maybe head back to more old-fashioned small-government conservatism.

Bull. The republicans are big-talking on cutting spending, but it doesn't happen. Ronnie held it constant as a percentage of GDP, both under both Bush presidents its increased significantly. And, oh yeah, the gradkids get to pay for these increases BTW, not the current generation of course.

[Danisty]

I guess you could say I'm one of those women that feels pro-life is anti-woman. I'm not really a liberal though. I'm just a woman who would do anything I had to do to not have kids.

[ScurvyRose]

I guess you could say I'm one of those women that feels pro-life is anti-woman. I'm not really a liberal though. I'm just a woman who would do anything I had to do to not have kids.

I appreciated Obama's new take on this issue. Let's look at better ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

[Henry]

I guess you could say I'm one of those women that feels pro-life is anti-woman. I'm not really a liberal though. I'm just a woman who would do anything I had to do to not have kids.

Well, not fucking is a good start, or having a guy with control who can pull out, or using condoms with spermicide. Or getting an abortion in the first trimester. Or even better, birth control pills and spermicide; all the pleasure, none of the risk, no uncomfortable ethical issues like ending a life because you are too lazy to care for it.

Not that I oppose early abortions, but its not as clear cut as pro-life=anti-women. That's a horridly self-absorbed position to take.

[Danisty]

Well, not fucking is a good start, or having a guy with control who can pull out, or using condoms with spermicide.Excuse me? I'm married and we use condoms, but last I knew, who and how I fuck isn't any of your business.

Or getting an abortion in the first trimester. Or even better, birth control pills and spermicide; all the pleasure, none of the risk, no uncomfortable ethical issues like ending a life because you are too lazy to care for it.It has nothing to do with being lazy. You are making an awful lot of assumptions. I've made a lot of posts on this forum about why I don't want children. Maybe you should read some of them before you attempt to attack me.

Not that I oppose early abortions, but its not as clear cut as pro-life=anti-women. That's a horridly self-absorbed position to take.You don't even know anything about my position. You're just being overly emotional for no reason whatsoever. This isn't even an abortion thread.

Prevention is fantastic. I'm all for it. It's not 100% perfect though. And before you tell me I need to go get a tubal ligation, I've tried. I can't find a doctor who will do it.

[Josh]

Well, not ******* is a good start, or having a guy with control who can pull out, or using condoms with spermicide

Henry are you even old enough for your high school health class yet?

[ScurvyRose]

Well, not fucking is a good start, or having a guy with control who can pull out, or using condoms with spermicide. Or getting an abortion in the first trimester. Or even better, birth control pills and spermicide; all the pleasure, none of the risk, no uncomfortable ethical issues like ending a life because you are too lazy to care for it.

Not that I oppose early abortions, but its not as clear cut as pro-life=anti-women. That's a horridly self-absorbed position to take.

This is not the type of forum for a comment of that nature, especially focused on a poster.

[Lights]

The Republicans needed a Grand Slam VP pick to even have a chance in this election. I knew from the moment that Obama became the presumptive nominee that the Republicans would pick a woman or a black man to be their VP choice. It is sad that it has become this predictable.

[Henry]

Excuse me? I'm married and we use condoms, but last I knew, who and how I fuck isn't any of your business.

You state you want to "do anything" to prevent having children. The easiest way to do that is to stop having sex. Guaranteed.

Re invasion of your sexuality, its flaunted all over the forums - notably your thread about loving to watch gay sex - so its not exactly a stretch to reference it, and the comment was general in nature.

It has nothing to do with being lazy. You are making an awful lot of assumptions. I've made a lot of posts on this forum about why I don't want children. Maybe you should read some of them before you attempt to attack me.

Who's attacking? I didn't insult. I used a "you" when I was referring to the issue of abortion generally.

You don't even know anything about my position. You're just being overly emotional for no reason whatsoever. This isn't even an abortion thread.

You brought up abortion in a VP thread, made a dumb comment about how anyone who doesn't agree with you is merde, and I hammered and am hammering you for it.

Prevention is fantastic. I'm all for it. It's not 100% perfect though. And before you tell me I need to go get a tubal ligation, I've tried. I can't find a doctor who will do it.

Take responsibility for your actions by either taking preventative measures, or getting an abortion in the first 3 months. Its pretty easy.

This is not the type of forum for a comment of that nature, especially focused on a poster.

Thoughtcop.


Edit, and be honest about why this bothers both of you so much: many radical pro-choice women want freedom from any responsiblity and to end lives whenever they find it convenient.





Henry added to this post, 49 minutes and 13 seconds later...

Henry are you even old enough for your high school health class yet?

Have you ever had sex with a real girl? Do you buy very much of what most high school teacher say?

[xtremegeek]

His choice sucks! I consider myself a conservative liberal...meaning I live my life very conservatively, but I firmly believe in giving people their freedom to do and be whatever they want. McCain's politics will never appeal to me. And about his choice for VEEP - she doesn't care about women's rights anymore than that b***h Condoleeza Rice.

[Snowdragon]

If only McCain picked Katherine Harris as is VP :p

[Wufnu]

Palin is interesting. Why can't McCain be the VP? :(

[Wuchak]

Stunning piece of tactical variation. But I'm not manipulated.

She may be the best personality to balance or rescue a desperate McCain. But is she the best person for the job in regard to experience, temperament, knowledge . . .?

To our younger male forum members, yes, she is relatively hot for a middle-aged mother of five children. Does that make her qualified for the job? If so, I can find hotter 44-year-old women who should be in politics.

[Karamazov]

Funny how the Vice-presidential picks transpired the way I anticipated it might. It's not hard for anyone to have seen this coming. Obama picking Biden; McCain picking Palin, which counterbalances both criticisms that have been leveled on the candidates.

[Wufnu]

Of course they did. Why wouldn't they? It makes all the sense in the world. I can't say that I expected Palin, however. I didn't even know who she was before they announced that he had picked her. As far as I can tell, it was a perfect choice (probably on both sides).

[Krazy P]

This pick surprised me, but from a strategy perspective, there are several upsides.

1. It takes Obama's "speech" off the table and puts Obama on the back burner - at least temporarily.
2. It indirectly highlights his inexperience and lack of actual accomplishments.
3. It mobilizes "boots on the ground" for the campaign (i.e. religious political activists). You need foot soldiers to execute the vote-getting process - don't underestimate this.
4. It negates, to some extent, the primary theme of Obama's "change" argument. Obama is actually an old school Chicago political machine person. Biden is a DC person.
5. It highlights the "personal narrative" issue. Palin is a bball player, bush pilot, hunter, commercial fisherman, mother of 5 - the personal narrative part of this story is huge from a branding/archetype perspective.
6. Palin - apparently - did actually take on the establishment - including "Big Oil". Obama has done... what exactly????

On the other hand there is the foreign policy stuff and experience and so forth - but aside from taking a trip, what is Obama's foreign policy experience?

Anyway, the devil is in the details. If she screws up, she will be toast. I bet the VP debates will get high ratings.

Also, her husband is ripped (part Aleut Indian, a union man, a championship snowmobiler) and she is a "photogenic" - to say the least.

Since I love Alaska and am an outdoorsman (been to ANWR, the Brooks Range, etc., she appeals to me on a personal level. If you are out hunting and get a moose and a griz shows up, what do you do? Car breaks down and its 30 below, what do you do? Bush plane stalls and the engine dies - what do you do? These are events that are part of everyday life in Alaska - seriously. I have met many Alaskan woman - they are pretty bad-ass as a group.

It certainly makes the race interesting!

[Snowdragon]

I see where he's going with this:

First Grampa Simpson uh..I meant McCain, has criticized Obama for being "too inexperienced", now he has picked someone with LESS experience than Obama. 2 years ago, she has managed a town of 6,000, now she's ready to be VP. She has no foreign policy experience compared to Obama.

McCain is a ladies man. He has made a joke about women wanting for enjoyment to be beastly raped and never apologized. He also made a joke about how ugly Janet Reno and Chelsea Clinton are and never apologized. McCain admits to several affairs. McCain was engaged to the heiress Cindy before his divorce from the crippled first wife was finalized.
The reason why Grampa Simpson chose Palin is desperation.

[SShack]

I'm surprised that pundits and the media are acting all surprised. I first heard her name bandied about as a possible Veep candidate a couple of months ago in the press and now they're all "Who is this unknown lady?"

[void]

Her fiscal conservatism is attractive. Her social conservatism is nauseating.

I also think that McCain's selection was predictable. The other front runners had their share of very visible flaws, while Palin is a clean slate. It is a brilliant strategic move by his campaign, as it now effectively guarantees the votes of social conservatives (a demographic he had problems with) and the Hillary-PUMA brigade. It is truly lamentable that millions of women will vote against their interests just because one of the VP candidates has a vagina. Nonetheless, it finally puts an end to the ridiculous "inexperienced" argument, which has been McCain's main weapon until now.

[Double Victory]

Her fiscal conservatism is attractive. Her social conservatism is nauseating.

I also think that McCain's selection was predictable. The other front runners had their share of very visible flaws, while Palin is a clean slate. It is a brilliant strategic move by his campaign, as it now effectively guarantees the votes of social conservatives (a demographic he had problems with) and the Hillary-PUMA brigade. It is truly lamentable that millions of women will vote against their interests just because one of the VP candidates has a vagina. Nonetheless, it finally puts an end to the ridiculous "inexperienced" argument, which has been McCain's main weapon until now.

Actually, I'm foreseeing a lot of women disliking the fact that one of the reasons Palin was chosen was specifically to attract Hillary supporters. Palin is still very conservative, and I don't think Hillary supporters are going to run into Palin's arms just because she's a woman.

[Colette]

I also think that McCain's selection was predictable. The other front runners had their share of very visible flaws, while Palin is a clean slate. It is a brilliant strategic move by his campaign, as it now effectively guarantees the votes of social conservatives (a demographic he had problems with) and the Hillary-PUMA brigade.

Would that be why the Obama strategists are now rubbing their hands in glee? :)

There's no way any thinking female Clinton supporter will vote republican based on this choice of a hawkish nobody from Alaska, and her good looks and ability to play up to the 'mom' image and take pot shots at Moose, isn't quite going to cut it with the swinging voters, imo. All it will do is paint McCain into a far right corner (if he hasn't done enough of that on his own already).

[void]

Actually, I'm foreseeing a lot of women disliking the fact that one of the reasons Palin was chosen was specifically to attract Hillary supporters. Palin is still very conservative, and I don't think Hillary supporters are going to run into Palin's arms just because she's a woman.

Would that be why the Obama strategists are now rubbing their hands in glee? :)

There's no way any thinking female Clinton supporter will vote republican based on this choice of a hawkish nobody from Alaska, and her good looks and ability to play up to the 'mom' image and take pot shots at Moose, isn't quite going to cut it with the swinging voters, imo. All it will do is paint McCain into a far right corner (if he hasn't done enough of that on his own already).

I sincerely hope you're both right. However you might be overestimating the intelligence of the average voter - or at least the ones who would not vote for Obama out of spite, even after Clinton endorsed him.

[Colette]

Well let's see at a glance what Palin is likely to give America as VP (somewhat difficult since she has no clearly articulated policies in a number of areas, including foreign policy, although I say give her a chance to get her ideas together - her nomination was as much a surprise to her as to everyone else). Anyway:

She supports drilling in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge even though McCain currently does not. She comes up “no issue stance yet recorded” on not only “foreign policy,” but also “war and peace," "immigration" and "free trade."

She and McCain both support offshore drilling for oil (despite clear directions from Kyoto and the IPCC that countries need to be quickly moving toward sustainable sources and uses of energy). They both oppose a windfall profits tax on oil companies (donations to the McCain campaign from oil and gas industry executives and employees rose to $1.1 million to McCain in June, compared with $208,000 in May, and $283,000 the month before).

And that's just energy policy. Don't get me started on their likely position on Iraq..

[PHS Philip]

Let's see.

Significantly less experience than Obama: check. Scientifically illiterate (pro ID): check. Opposes environmental protection: check. Wait, forget that. Radically opposed environmental protection: check. Opposed to non-barrier contraceptives: check. Human caused global warming denier: looks like it. Stances on foreign policy: none that we know of. Her stances on homeland security on ontheissues: " * Visits Kuwait; encourages Alaska big game hunting to troops. (Sep 2007) * Promote from within, in Alaska's National Guard. (Nov 2006) " (I kid you not)

All in all, this should be fun to watch...

[Colette]

Let's see.

Significantly less experience than Obama: check. Scientifically illiterate (pro ID): check. Opposes environmental protection: check. Wait, forget that. Radically opposed environmental protection: check. Opposed to non-barrier contraceptives: check. Human caused global warming denier: looks like it. Stances on foreign policy: none that we know of. Her stances on homeland security on ontheissues: " * Visits Kuwait; encourages Alaska big game hunting to troops. (Sep 2007) * Promote from within, in Alaska's National Guard. (Nov 2006) " (I kid you not)

All in all, this should be fun to watch...

I'm starting to think of the McCain/Palin ticket slogan as being something like:

"The Great Leap Backwards" :)

[Karamazov]

I'm starting to think of the McCain/Palin ticket slogan as being something like:

"The Great Leap Backwards" :)

More like "All Your Moose Are Belong To Us"

[Colette]

More like "All Your Moose Are Belong To Us"

Or how about:

"On target and shooting for a better future"? ;)

[Karamazov]

Or how about:

"On target and shooting for a better future"? ;)

The "Values Voters" will love that. I'd couple it with : "Palin can play basketball. Can Obama hunt?"

I have a feeling this election won't be a stealer for Obama. Voters are bound to be enthralled by this dynamic (considering the Media's fawning and accolades over the pick)

[Double Victory]

I sincerely hope you're both right. However you might be overestimating the intelligence of the average voter - or at least the ones who would not vote for Obama out of spite, even after Clinton endorsed him.

I would venture to say that the people who would be so angry to vote out of spite are probably somewhat immature, and possibly more likely to end up not actually getting around to voting. Of course, it still wouldn't be a vote for Obama, so that wouldn't be great.

Karamazov, you bring up a thought about this election being "enthralling". Either way, politics are bound to change. But somehow I see politics changing much more with Obama being president, versus Palin being VP. She would still only be VP. Not as good as getting a minority to the top slot.

Also, it would be very interesting if Obama gets elected, because then it seems our politics would go the way of suffrage, where African-Americans got it before women.

[Karamazov]

Karamazov, you bring up a thought about this election being "enthralling". Either way, politics are bound to change. But somehow I see politics changing much more with Obama being president, versus Palin being VP. She would still only be VP. Not as good as getting a minority to the top slot.

Also, it would be very interesting if Obama gets elected, because then it seems our politics would go the way of suffrage, where African-Americans got it before women.

True. I'm just pointing out how the talking heads are reeling over McCain's choice. All in all it was unexpected, and Obama getting elected would change the genetic makeup of the White House, if you will. I'm just doubtful that it will be the "Change" the Obama campaign proselytizes.

[Quisitor]

Does anyone have any estimations on the MBTI's of the running mates (Biden, Palin)?

I read recently in a Jung introductory book for the layman, that ethics are the concern of the F type, morals the concern of the T type. If Palin has been making waves for her stands on ethics, does that make her an F? On the other hand, social conservatives like her for moral reasons...

[JustMel]

I have several issues with Palin, she is being praised for being a breast feeding, "executive" mother--- so what so are thousands of other women. Whether she pumps or plops out a breast to feed at her desk or puts formula in the bottle should have NO bearing on politics and neither should the fact that she "chose to continue a pregnancy to term even knowing the child would be a Down's Syndrome baby" SO freakin' what? Thousands of other couples have made that same decision. She has some good points but I can't understand how anyone can say that she is fit to be second in command when she admitted she had no idea what the VP does all day. I just think that someone who is going to be in the White House should know what goes on there, at least in theory.

I spoke with my little sister today who is married to a guy in the 101st Airborne in KY. He is in Afghanistan currently on his 3rd tour over there since this started. She that there are a lot of the military men and WOMEN who are saying they won't vote for McCain because they do not want a female as Commander and Chief of the military. I don't think it matters if it's a man or a woman personally but apparently some of them do.

I'm not a huge fan of Obama either at this point and I haven't made my mind up who I will vote for but like others I am glued to the TV and CNN and all the other stations watching what happens.

It really doesn't matter what ANY of them say they are going to do because they can all lie well--they're politicians, what matters is what will happen after they are elected and no one knows what they will do then except them and they sure as hell aren't admitting it to anyone else now.





JustMel added to this post, 13 minutes and 52 seconds later...

It also doesn't matter who likes them or who doesn't because no candidate will be able to please all the people all the time. In this case I don't think they can please any of the people all the time.

[Colette]

Does anyone have any estimations on the MBTI's of the running mates (Biden, Palin)?


Who cares? :p

I'm more interested in her potential abilities as a VP, than her looks, reproductive skills, shooting prowess or (dare I say it) her MB type :)

[Snowdragon]

Does anyone have any estimations on the MBTI's of the running mates (Biden, Palin)?

I read recently in a Jung introductory book for the layman, that ethics are the concern of the F type, morals the concern of the T type. If Palin has been making waves for her stands on ethics, does that make her an F? On the other hand, social conservatives like her for moral reasons...

I'm guessing ESFJ.





Snowdragon added to this post, 22 minutes and 56 seconds later...

There's also a rumor circulatating around that Sarah Palin helped cover up her daughter's pregnancy She was taken out of school the last 4 or 5 months of her mother's pregnancy due to a prolonged case of "Mono". When Palin announced that she was pregnant (she was 7 months along), it came as a suprise to everyone (she wasn't showing).

This one's from "Super Tuesday"
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There's somthing dodgy about this photo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


But hey, I could be wrong...

But there's more...


"Gov. Palin's opted to board a jet from Dallas in April while about to deliver a child. Gov. Palin, who was eight months pregnant, says she felt a few contractions shortly before she was to give a keynote speech to an energy summit of governors in Dallas. But she says she went ahead with it after her doctor in Alaska advised her to put her feet up to rest. "I was not going to miss that speech," she says.

She rushed so quickly from the podium afterwards that Texas Gov. Rick Perry nervously asked if she was about to deliver the baby then. She made it to the airport, and gave birth hours after landing in Anchorage to Trig, who is diagnosed with Down Syndrome. "Maybe they shouldn't have let me fly, but I wasn't showing much so they didn't know," she says"

Pregnant women are not supposed to fly in an airplane when they are 7 or more months during the term.

According to Alaskan Airline representative, Caroline Boren: "Governor Palin was extremely pleasant to flight attendants and her stage of pregnancy was not apparent by observation as she didn’t show any signs of distress"

It's just a rumor...

[Quisitor]

ESFJ does seem to fit -- primary Fe would explain the capacity for high popularity, auxiliary Si would be a contributor to the athleticism. I'm hardly incorporating all the details about her. Would an introvert want to be mobbed by 5 kids? <GRIN> Albeit in a spouse pair, the probability that one of them is an introvert might be high.

I'm studying the type question further, but no guarantees that I'll have any revisions to our guess quickly...

[Dream Weaver]

Palin looks good on paper, but if you dig even a tiny bit it becomes abundantly clear she isn't qualified.

She may be the best personality to balance or rescue a desperate McCain. But is she the best person for the job in regard to experience, temperament, knowledge . . .?

Like I said.

[SShack]

If it turns out she's Bree from "Desperate Housewives," that will totally land her the Log Cabin Republic vote, heh.

Palin has revealed that her unmarried daughter is currently pregnant and hasn't given birth. So the baby is indeed her own. The daughter apparently is planning to marry the father.

[Snowdragon]

This woman cannot even teach her 17 year old daughter right from wrong, and yet she would prance about with the gall to tell everyone about "family values". :yuck:



AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!

Sorry about the histrionic outburst but I have problem with people who don't practice what they preach.

[Josh]

It's pretty damn hilarious when one of these backward ass republicans against sex education has their 17 year old knocked up. Yes lets keep telling kids that sex is bad, but not teach them how to do it safely, responsibly, or prevent pregnancy. Maybe one day they'll just stop ****ing. Idiots.

[Tocsin]

If McCain wins it'll be tabloid heaven.

News and rumors about the Palin's rural values escapades my even eclipse stories of Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears.

[xeeeej]

I'm guessing ESFJ.





Snowdragon added to this post, 22 minutes and 56 seconds later...



There's somthing dodgy about this photo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


But hey, I could be wrong...



When was that picture taken?

[xtremegeek]

Palin's teenage daughter is now pregnant. Palin's youngest child has Downs Syndrome. Perhaps, it's time for her to finally focus on her family and get her house in order. She can crank out babies, but does that mean she can raise them?! She's not ready for the White House.

[Wuchak]

I am struggling on a very personal level with the Downs Syndrome affected baby having a governor or a vice president, instead of a mother.

BTW, the birth cover up conspiracy theory never held water. When Palin continued to have children after the age of 35, Downs became an exponentially greater possibility as she grew older.

[Tocsin]

I'm sure the experience of having an unwed teenage pregnancy in the veep's family will give the situation some national coverage.

With their heightened awareness of the diffuculties of teenage parenthood, I'm sure we can count on the Republican's to increase social spending for pre and post natal care of the infants of teen mothers, regardless of race or poverty. After all... it is the moral thing to do.

Don't you think?

[Drezden]

Palin's addition to the McCain ticket has only made it worse in my opinion because she is exactly like all the nuevo-riche soccer mom types that live in my area with their fake smiles and kids with weird-ass names. Track, Trig, Bristol.....give me a break. Plus she's pro ID which in my book means that shes a complete idiot. If she is going to be VP then I cant wait to see what gems they pick for the rest of the cabinet.

I do love that shes big on abstinence only sex ed and her daughter is preggo, thats priceless and typical of republican hypocrisy. Almost as funny as McCain telling everyone that he knows how to win wars when he spent more time crashing planes in vietnam than he did flying them on missions. The man even set an aircraft carrier on fire. I guess the north vietnamese gave him some tips on winning while in their prison camp.

Now Im just wishing that Ron Paul wasnt such a crackpot because he made the most sense on fiscal policy during the debates. All the other republicans are clueless on how to fix the economy in this country other than making tax breaks for rich people permanent and hoping that trickle down econ will start working overnight.

PS. I hate the dems equally, but this is a Palin thread so Im rolling with it.

[Colette]

Palin's teenage daughter is now pregnant. Palin's youngest child has Downs Syndrome. Perhaps, it's time for her to finally focus on her family and get her house in order. She can crank out babies, but does that mean she can raise them?! She's not ready for the White House.

Do fathers who are politicians get judged like this? I doubt it. Our prime minister got endless grief from the public about her decision not to have kids and focus on a political career. No male politician making the same decision would ever get that kind of judgmentalism flung in his direction.

[ScurvyRose]

When was that picture taken?

That is very definitely photoshopped!!!

[silversun]

This is just amazing. Honestly.

McCain uses his argument of inexperience against Obama. Now he chooses a VP that is even less experienced AND has never dealt with foreign relations or national issues before. What if McCain croaks while in office? Do you trust Palin to know what she's doing as president when she's only been a governor (of a dinky state) for 2 years? I find this very irresponsible and I'm disappointed in McCain for not making a country-first choice. It's so transparent that she was picked just to help him get elected. I'd seriously bitch-slap McCain if he ever tries to use inexperience against Obama again. This really just shows that I prefer Obama's judgment over McCain's "experience" ANY day.

I find this next part funny. We've all seen McCain's celebrity ads against Obama. Well now what? Palin has a 17 year old pregnant daughter, who engaged in premarital sex. First of all, I'm amazed that conservatives are sympathizing with this. If she was a democrat, they'd be all over her. It shows just how hypocritical they are. Second, Jamie Lynn Spears anyone???

And third, Palin is an irresponsible parent and not a good role model for mothers. She is able to put aside her newborn with down syndrome so she can go run for national office! Seriously... Ambition, anyone? She really needs to pay more attention to her family, it already shows. Maybe if she spent more time with her kids she wouldn't have a pregnant daughter. I know this is mean, but this is honestly how I feel. And her new spotlight in the political arena is bringing all the attention to her daughter now. I would be SO embarrassed if I were her. Her poor daughter =/ Palin should be ashamed of herself.

I can't believe how hypocritical this all is. I'm very angry! I really hope other women are offended by this. McCain is a total womanizer. His wife is a RICH BITCH who doesn't even mention her 2 half-sisters, who never received a PENNY of the family fortune when their father died. It's not surprising that McCain picked a woman for VP -- I was really expecting this -- but aren't there more qualified women?? Is that ALL the GOP had to offer? Maybe he thinks her looks can get him into the white house.

=)

[Josh]

Do fathers who are politicians get judged like this? I doubt it. Our prime minister got endless grief from the public about her decision not to have kids and focus on a political career. No male politician making the same decision would ever get that kind of judgmentalism flung in his direction.

That most likely wouldn't happen in America, the feminists would pounce on and destroy anyone who even suggested there was something wrong with a woman not making babies to focus on career. However when a woman has a baby with Downs syndrome because she gave birth in her 40's and has a pregnant teenage daughter, it simply highlights her ridiculous, backward, conservative beliefs about sex education. You'd think as a christian she would take these two events as a personal communique from god telling her to wake the hell up, but alas no, she chooses to appeal to her base, the dimwitted, evangelical "family values" crowd. That is why this situation is being discussed by the liberal press, not because she's female.

[SShack]

And now apparently it turns out she belongs to an independence party in Alaska apparently devoted to trying to secede from the U.S. and making Alaska its own country. This is getting funnier by the day.

[ScurvyRose]

And now apparently it turns out she belongs to an independence party in Alaska apparently devoted to trying to secede from the U.S. and making Alaska its own country. This is getting funnier by the day.

Unfortunately they are doing a better campain in Obama's favor than they are doing for themselves!! Are there any independent candidates out there?

[Snowdragon]

When was that picture taken?

March 9th.

[ScurvyRose]

Very interesting that The pregnant 17 year old was carrying the baby, repleat with large blankets the entire time last night. With the face puffyness, hidden body, and timing of the outing, I fully expect that she is about 8 or 9 months pregnant.

And by the way....when did she turn 17? Did they decide 17 and pregnant sounded better than 16 and pregnant?

[SShack]

And now it turns out she's probably not even a real fiscal conservative, according to somebody (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) who followed her back when she was mayor. Guess I was wrong about shifting the party away from neoconservatism. She's just as bad as the establishment.

I think we're going to get a Mondale or Dole level pounding at the polls come November. We'll see.

[Josh]

Interesting article on Palin, Shack

[xtremegeek]

I'm sure the experience of having an unwed teenage pregnancy in the veep's family will give the situation some national coverage.

With their heightened awareness of the diffuculties of teenage parenthood, I'm sure we can count on the Republican's to increase social spending for pre and post natal care of the infants of teen mothers, regardless of race or poverty. After all... it is the moral thing to do.

Don't you think?

I think this election year has real potention to turn into a text book trailer park trash election. Just for fun, imagine this: Palin's daugther was artificially inseminated by Obama's wife, who has decided she's a lesbian. One of the Obama children is busted for cocain use (at 9 years old) and the other is expelled from school for carrying a weapon. McCain is caught groping some woman who is working on his campaign and McCain's wife sells her beer distribution company to a foreign company. Then his wife has verbal sparring in the media with Roseanne Barr. The day after the election, both camps - dems and reps - appear on the Jerry Springer show.

Yes sir, we have the makings of our first trailer park trash election. Bring on the food stamps, lottery scratch-offs and cigarrettes!

[Mozzes]

I think this election year has real potention to turn into a text book trailer park trash election. Just for fun, imagine this: Palin's daugther was artificially inseminated by Obama's wife, who has decided she's a lesbian. One of the Obama children is busted for cocain use (at 9 years old) and the other is expelled from school for carrying a weapon. McCain is caught groping some woman who is working on his campaign and McCain's wife sells her beer distribution company to a foreign company. Then his wife has verbal sparring in the media with Roseanne Barr. The day after the election, both camps - dems and reps - appear on the Jerry Springer show.

Yes sir, we have the makings of our first trailer park trash election. Bring on the food stamps, lottery scratch-offs and cigarrettes!

...I hope you don't mean to imply all of that'd be a bad thing. Talk about an election that delivers!

[xtremegeek]

...I hope you don't mean to imply all of that'd be a bad thing. Talk about an election that delivers!

A Hollywood block buster!

[Mozzes]

A Hollywood block buster!

And at the very least our top politicians would resemble what the rest of the world already seems to think of us. I've been saying all along that we might as well just dress up a pig in a tux and call it Mr. President. Maybe that pig from Charlotte's Web. He seemed like a nice fellow and so eloquent for an animal.

[xtremegeek]

And at the very least our top politicians would resemble what the rest of the world already seems to think of us. I've been saying all along that we might as well just dress up a pig in a tux and call it Mr. President. Maybe that pig from Charlotte's Web. He seemed like a nice fellow and so eloquent for an animal.

That would be Wilbur.
Which sounds better: Wilbur Obama -or- Wilbur McCain?

[Snowdragon]

Wilbur McCain. The US will be the laughing stock of the world with Wilbur McCain.


Oh, speaking of pigs, all animals are equal (but some are more equal than others).

[xtremegeek]

Do fathers who are politicians get judged like this? I doubt it. Our prime minister got endless grief from the public about her decision not to have kids and focus on a political career. No male politician making the same decision would ever get that kind of judgmentalism flung in his direction.

Actually, Bush was judged quite harshly while his one daughter was caught DUI several times, then caught drunk at parties too frequently.

[Snowdragon]

Actually, Bush was judged quite harshly while his one daughter was caught DUI several times, then caught drunk at parties too frequently.

It's okay if you're an evangelical Christian.

[xtremegeek]

It's okay if you're an evangelical Christian.

That's the game the politicians are playing. The, "What would the Religious Right Do?" WWRRD. Republicans try to play 'into' the religious right, while the Dems try to maneuver 'around' the religious right. But in the end, it's always about the religious right.

[SeaCzar]

On teen pregnancy.....

I had Cost Centres #2 (Male, 20 years old) and #3 (Male, 17 years old) at the beach for a week this summer. They were told the following:

"You two, listen up. If you meet some floozies down here, and get the urge to merge, you can do the horizontal bop until you drop, but you had better have your shit wrapped. If a pregnancy happens down here, your mother will have my ass, after which your's is mine."

Three hours later, here come the babes from Ohio. The next morning I said, "Remember what I said about those floozies."

Fortunately, both are smart and listen, and its been instilled constantly from an early age.

[azelismia]

Stunning piece of tactical variation. But I'm not manipulated.

She may be the best personality to balance or rescue a desperate McCain. But is she the best person for the job in regard to experience, temperament, knowledge . . .?

To our younger male forum members, yes, she is relatively hot for a middle-aged mother of five children. Does that make her qualified for the job? If so, I can find hotter 44-year-old women who should be in politics.

I agree and I wouldn't vote for her. Alaska isn't exactly known for having the best and the brightest in politics. it's one of the most corrupt states. It's just a transparent move to get the female voters. I find it rather insulting rather than interesting. If he were to die we'd be stuck with a soccer mom in office, who seems to have no problem with exploitation of the environment for cash.. no experience in foreign policy and not many years in govt.. Very scary imho.

[Phalanx]

Palin's two years as Governor are more valuable in terms of demonstrating functional executive leadership ability than Obama's time in both the Illinois Senate and United State's Senate combined. Governors are required to manage and coordinate large numbers of people in operations spanning the full spectrum of state affairs and be responsible for every mistake they make. Senators focus on a few political initiatives at most and vote, with very limited real responsibility. Obama might have spear-headed some pieces of legislation or managed a few small committees, but that does not compare to governing the largest state in the country.

The Commander in Chief of the United States must understand how to manage large numbers of people in order to be effective at implementing their strategic vision and responding appropriately to national emergencies. If you handed both McCain-Palin and Obama-Biden 25,000 people and had them compete to see who could dig a canal first (or some other huge project), the team with Palin would win easily because she is the only one of the four that has any real experience managing large groups of people, with McCain in second because of his Navy leadership experience.

I am merely pointing out the unique value that Palin adds to the Republican ticket that is not present in the Democrat's ticket. I will save my comparisions of McCain vs Obama for a more appropriate thread. I also agree with most of her stances and would rather have her as president than Obama in the event that McCain croaks.

Her other value as a potential vice president is in her demonstrated ability to directly challenge and defeat corruption, even in her own party, something that few if any other Senators can boast (Obama promises to fight corruption, something which she has already done). She also provides the ideological bridge to unite the Republican Party under McCain. To look at her selection as merely a play for female votes (while that was certaintly a benefit of her selection) is to ignore her demonstrated strengths as an elected official, and is just as ridiculous as someone saying that Obama was selected solely to appeal to black voters while ignoring his accomplishments.

(Bonus note: for every person that votes for Obama just because he is black, two people will vote for McCain just because Palin is hot.)

[Tenacious B]

I agree and I wouldn't vote for her. Alaska isn't exactly known for having the best and the brightest in politics. it's one of the most corrupt states. It's just a transparent move to get the female voters. I find it rather insulting rather than interesting. If he were to die we'd be stuck with a soccer mom in office, who seems to have no problem with exploitation of the environment for cash.. no experience in foreign policy and not many years in govt.. Very scary imho.
How ever corrupt Alaska may be, Chicago politics and the Daily political machine are far worse. The last portion of your comment applies to Obama more than anyone. So if Palin is too inexperienced to be second in line for the Presidency, Obama couldn't possibly be ready to be first.

[DrEast]

Why are people saying that her daughter's (possible) moral failing is a bad light cast on her as a family values politician? We're INTJ's here! We believe in autonomy! The daughter was her own person, not an appendage of her mother!

Which is more important: That the woman (mother Palin) stood by what she believed when she learned her daughter was pregnant, and the daughter showed some moral training in dealing with that crisis herself, or that the daughter got pregnant in the first place? I'd say it's the first.

Abstinence-only, as a political stand, doesn't TRY to guarantee a 100% success rate. It just puts sexuality firmly on the side of a moral question (instead of a morally nihilistic it-can't-be-wrong-because-people-keep-doing-it-and-we-can't-seem-to-stop-them approach) and states that people have a personal responsibility to remain chaste.

When did personal responsibility become so unpopular as a political movement? Isn't that the whole point of freedom? So Palin's daughter failed... but the most central freedom is the freedom to fail, the freedom to starve, the freedom to die. Without these freedoms, what can possibly be the value of the others? Why do I care that I'm free to succeed without the freedom to fail motivating me? Why do we discuss the freedoms of education, when at heart that's a denial of the freedom not to be educated? Same with the universal health care question: Why am I denied the right to not pay for someone else's health care in return for not having any of my own? But that's exactly what every politician is promising.

Why is the right to remove one's self from the system so repeatedly abrogated? Isn't this the definition of tyranny?

And this all applies to the pregnancy thing... in a free country, she got pregnant. Her mother does not believe abortion is morally right. Neither, apparently, does the daughter. How are these two things in any way a paradox? Why is this question even coming up?

As for Alaska having a history of corruption, that is true. But Palin did kill the bridge to nowhere... that's a point in her favor, corruption-wise. She's also not exactly popular with Big Oil, since she's trying to keep the money with the state that owns the oil instead of acting like all of the USA has the right to Alaska's resources, with the resultant cheap prices at the pump and big bucks in the oil company's pockets.

Why, that's downright rebellious! And good for her. We're the United States, not the United State... at least not yet.

[void]

Palin's two years as Governor are more valuable in terms of demonstrating functional executive leadership ability than Obama's time in both the Illinois Senate and United State's Senate combined. Governors are required to manage and coordinate large numbers of people in operations spanning the full spectrum of state affairs and be responsible for every mistake they make. Senators focus on a few political initiatives at most and vote, with very limited real responsibility. Obama might have spear-headed some pieces of legislation or managed a few small committees, but that does not compare to governing the largest state in the country.

Palin's contentious executive experience advantage is nullified by her frightening ignorance of foreign policy. Bush's aides are currently giving her a crash course to prepare her for questions from "journalists" (very few left on the big 3 networks). This situation is somewhat similar to that of GWB in 2000 - although he had a lot more executive experience than Palin does, he had very little knowledge of international affairs. And I think you would agree that it led to catastrophic results.

The Commander in Chief of the United States must understand how to manage large numbers of people in order to be effective at implementing their strategic vision and responding appropriately to national emergencies.

With the exception of the national emergencies bit, Obama fits this description to a tee, given the successful leadership of his campaign. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Palin has (fortunately) not yet had to respond to national emergencies.

If you handed both McCain-Palin and Obama-Biden 25,000 people and had them compete to see who could dig a canal first (or some other huge project), the team with Palin would win easily because she is the only one of the four that has any real experience managing large groups of people, with McCain in second because of his Navy leadership experience.

Highly contentious. Obama's campaign has experienced far more grueling circumstances than McCain's this election season, the latter of whom had the Republican nomination secured very early and with comparatively little effort. Furthermore, McCain's initial choices for campaign advisors were absolutely terrible ("nation of whiners"). Steve Schmidt is truly a well learned disciple for managing to turn his campaign around.

I am merely pointing out the unique value that Palin adds to the Republican ticket that is not present in the Democrat's ticket. I will save my comparisions of McCain vs Obama for a more appropriate thread. I also agree with most of her stances and would rather have her as president than Obama in the event that McCain croaks.

The unique value that Palin brings to the ticket is her social conservatism. Her being a woman was simply a bonus attack which did not pan out as the McCain campaign had planned.

Her other value as a potential vice president is in her demonstrated ability to directly challenge and defeat corruption, even in her own party, something that few if any other Senators can boast (Obama promises to fight corruption, something which she has already done). She also provides the ideological bridge to unite the Republican Party under McCain.

It's pretty hard to actively fight corruption from a purely legislative position - especially when you're a junior Senator. However, Palin's actions in this regard are admirable, even if she was for the bridge-to-nowhere before she was against it. Let's see if results from the Troopergate investigation negate that.

(Bonus note: for every person that votes for Obama just because he is black, two people will vote for McCain just because Palin is hot.)

And we'll have three idiots further contribute to the nation's decline.


EDIT: This discussion has ignored policy differences entirely. Fiscally, McCain will be anything but conservative, with his insistence on staying in Iraq indefinitely and watching the national debt soar. Going by her record in Alaska and criticism of the Bush administration's lack of an exit strategy, Palin does seem fiscally conservative.

[bucolic_]

And now apparently it turns out she belongs to an independence party in Alaska apparently devoted to trying to secede from the U.S. and making Alaska its own country. This is getting funnier by the day.

No, that party claimed she belonged at one time, then backed off of that claim. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. tml

[Josh]

Palin's two years as Governor are more valuable in terms of demonstrating functional executive leadership ability than Obama's time in both the Illinois Senate and United State's Senate combined. Governors are required to manage and coordinate large numbers of people in operations spanning the full spectrum of state affairs and be responsible for every mistake they make. Senators focus on a few political initiatives at most and vote, with very limited real responsibility. Obama might have spear-headed some pieces of legislation or managed a few small committees, but that does not compare to governing the largest state in the country.

Alaska's population is smaller than that of nearly any major American city. Moreover just because one is elected to a post such as the governor's does not mean they are any good at it. By that logic, one would say Bush would be the best candidate for this election because he has 6 times the executive experience of all 4 combined, but alas he is a moron. Experience and the ability to win a popularity contest is no substitution for common sense and competency.
Her other value as a potential vice president is in her demonstrated ability to directly challenge and defeat corruption, even in her own party, something that few if any other Senators can boast (Obama promises to fight corruption, something which she has already done). She also provides the ideological bridge to unite the Republican Party under McCain. To look at her selection as merely a play for female votes (while that was certaintly a benefit of her selection) is to ignore her demonstrated strengths as an elected official, and is just as ridiculous as someone saying that Obama was selected solely to appeal to black voters while ignoring his accomplishments.
And if she directly challenged this corruption as a political move to fashion that image for herself to fuel her own ambitions and subsequently be elected governor does that make her better or worse then the very corruption she supposedly fought? Read the link shack posted To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.. A somewhat biased source perhaps but one with far more inside information than any of us could ever hope to have.
Why are people saying that her daughter's (possible) moral failing is a bad light cast on her as a family values politician? We're INTJ's here! We believe in autonomy! The daughter was her own person, not an appendage of her mother!

It's not a failing, it's just completely ironic and extremely amusing that her own backward ways of thinking have slapped her in the face with a cold dose of reality twice by impacting her own family. The other said slap being the baby with downs syndrome, yes a horrible thing that i don't mean to make light of, but what the hell else do you expect when you don't use contraceptives and keep popping out babies in your 40's? I guess she's opposed to all that crazy science showing the correlation between this condition and the age of the mother.
Abstinence-only, as a political stand, doesn't TRY to guarantee a 100% success rate. It just puts sexuality firmly on the side of a moral question (instead of a morally nihilistic it-can't-be-wrong-because-people-keep-doing-it-and-we-can't-seem-to-stop-them approach) and states that people have a personal responsibility to remain chaste.

You call it being morally nihilistic, i'll call it being realistic. The idea of equating sex, with or without marriage, to being amoral is absolutely ludicrous. You know what happens to the children of right wing bible thumpers who try to push these kinds of ideas on their kids? They go to college and become whores. Sorry to be so blunt, but it doesn't take a psyche major to understand that the more taboo something is in our society the more impressionable, rebellious teens will be attracted to it as an outlet in the quest for self identity. Do you want them to have the facts and be safe about it or not? There is so much more i could say on the subject, but judging from your narrow minded views on it, i would never get through.
And this all applies to the pregnancy thing... in a free country, she got pregnant. Her mother does not believe abortion is morally right. Neither, apparently, does the daughter. How are these two things in any way a paradox? Why is this question even coming up?

Oh i promise you if the daughter considered abortion at first, a woman as politically ambitious and ruthless as Palin would have made absolutely sure her daughter saw things her way by the time she was done with her.
As for Alaska having a history of corruption, that is true. But Palin did kill the bridge to nowhere... that's a point in her favor, corruption-wise.
Only AFTER she supported it and it became politically unpopular to do so. She spent, spent, spent as the governor, read up my friend.

[Colette]

EDIT: This discussion has ignored policy differences entirely. Fiscally, McCain will be anything but conservative, with his insistence on staying in Iraq indefinitely and watching the national debt soar. Going by her record in Alaska and criticism of the Bush administration's lack of an exit strategy, Palin does seem fiscally conservative.

Not to mention his 'heathcare' plan, which involves ending the employer tax exemption for the funding of employee health plans, and using these funds to subsidise the purchase of health services in the private market. Private providers will exclude the poor, the elderly and the sick, so how does he plan to deal with this group? By having to open the public purse for them I would suggest; adding yet more government spending to the Defence side of the ledger.

In short McCain has little to no understanding of economic policy, and that becomes glaringly apparent every time he makes an announcement on the issue.

[DrEast]

Oh i promise you if the daughter considered abortion at first, a woman as politically ambitious and ruthless as Palin would have made absolutely sure her daughter saw things her way by the time she was done with her.


For a statement that has absolutely nothing backing it up, that's pretty strong. I could come back with a claim that the daughter never even considered it as a serious possibility because her mother had so imbued the daughter with the idea that abortion is immoral... but then you'd come back and call that propaganda, so what's the point?

The question to be asked is: How much right do parents have to pass their values on to their kids? How important is it that they do so successfully? Nobody's asking about the philosophy of parenting in this discussion, but it's the source of the clash, so it's where you gotta take the discussion.

For that matter, your "whores" comment, also without any evidence provided, shows again a difference in fundamental philosophy. Didn't I just talk about the freedom of children to fail? Morality can't be based in the human condition, or it ceases to exist in an absolute sense. We disagree in the absolute nature of morality (not ethics, morality), so that's where we'd have to take this argument. But it's an axiomatic difference, so all that's gonna end up happening is us shouting at each other and invalidating each other's points automatically from the axioms.

Since we don't actually know each other well enough to use our relationship leverage to alter axiomatic beliefs, the end result is sound and fury, signifying nothing. Welcome to teh internets!


Only AFTER she supported it and it became politically unpopular to do so. She spent, spent, spent as the governor, read up my friend.

Oh, I know. But the purpose of a state government is to bilk the federal government for all it can... and the purpose of the federal government is to bilk the people living in the states as much as IT can. It's the way the system is set up. To say that Palin spent huge amounts of money on her state is to say that she succeeded as the state governor at the only job state government has LEFT after the War of Northern Aggression.

Similarly, in a democracy the best politicians are by default the populist ones. The fact that Palin stopped supporting the bridge to nowhere when it became unpopular simply means that she listens to the people... unlike good ol' Ted, who, it becomes more obvious with every passing day, listens to his pocketbook. End result? A hugely popular governor... with the citizens of Alaska, but certainly not the U.S. or the oil companies. That speaks well of her character.

[Josh]

First of all thank you for remaining logical in your response instead of arguing. I love teh internets! lol
The question to be asked is: How much right do parents have to pass their values on to their kids? How important is it that they do so successfully? Nobody's asking about the philosophy of parenting in this discussion, but it's the source of the clash, so it's where you gotta take the discussion.
In my humble opinion, parents have the right and indeed the responsibility to NOT pass on their values to their kids. We don't need another generation of brainwashed people spewing the same antiquated, utterly impractical, close minded beliefs on their children under the guise of morality on things such as sex or religious ideology for instance. Parents have the responsibility to give kids every bit of knowledge that they can, foster their autonomous development, make them free thinking people that can make their own decisions on what is morally right and wrong. They do not of course, because some of them would clash with the societal norm.

What happened with the last great cultural revolution of the 1960s? The United States ended a pointless war, and civil rights and women's rights were established. And surely most of the older generation hiding behind the facade of "family values" did everything they could to stop it, viewing it as the unraveling of the moral fabric of our country. I'm not saying people like Palin don't have their hearts in the right place, simply their heads.

[Tocsin]

Palin is a porker!!

WASILLA, ALASKA -- For much of his long career in Washington, John McCain has been throwing darts at the special spending system known as earmarking, through which powerful members of Congress can deliver federal cash for pet projects back home with little or no public scrutiny. He's even gone so far as to publish "pork lists" detailing these financial favors.

Three times in recent years, McCain's catalogs of "objectionable" spending have included earmarks for this small Alaska town, requested by its mayor at the time -- Sarah Palin.

Now, McCain, the likely Republican presidential nominee, has chosen Palin as his running mate, touting her as a reformer just like him...

But records show that Palin -- first as mayor of Wasilla and recently as governor of Alaska -- was far from shy about pursuing tens of millions in earmarks for her town, her region and her state.

This year, Palin, who has been governor for nearly 22 months, defended earmarking as a vital part of the legislative system. "The federal budget, in its various manifestations, is incredibly important to us, and congressional earmarks are one aspect of this relationship," she wrote in a newspaper column.

In 2001, McCain's list of spending that had been approved without the normal budget scrutiny included a $500,000 earmark for a public transportation project in Wasilla. The Arizona senator targeted $1 million in a 2002 spending bill for an emergency communications center in town -- one that local law enforcement has said is redundant and creates confusion.

McCain also criticized $450,000 set aside for an agricultural processing facility in Wasilla that was requested during Palin's tenure as mayor and cleared Congress soon after she left office in 2002. The funding was provided to help direct locally grown produce to schools, prisons and other government institutions, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, a nonpartisan watchdog group.

Wasilla received $11.9 million in earmarks from 2000 to 2003. The results of this spending are very apparent today. (The town also benefited from $15 million in federal funds to promote regional rail transportation.)

***

Taylor Griffin, a McCain campaign spokesman, said that when Palin became mayor in 1996, "she faced a system that was broken. Small towns like Wasilla in Alaska depended on earmarks to take care of basic needs. . . . That was something that Gov. Palin was alarmed about and was one of the formative experiences that led her toward the reform-oriented stance that she has taken as her career has progressed."

Palin, he said, was "disgusted" that small towns like hers were dependent on earmarks.

Public records paint a different picture:

Wasilla had received few if any earmarks before Palin became mayor. She actively sought federal funds -- a campaign that began to pay off only after she hired a lobbyist with close ties to Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), who long controlled federal spending as chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee. He made funneling money to Alaska his hallmark.

Steven Silver was a former chief of staff for Stevens. After he was hired, Wasilla obtained funding for several projects in 2002, including an additional $600,000 in transportation funding.

That year, a local water and sewer project received $1.5 million, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, which combs federal spending measures to identify projects inserted by congressional members.

When Palin spoke after McCain introduced her as his running mate at a rally in Ohio last week, she made fun of earmarking. She said she had rejected $223 million in federal funds for a bridge linking Ketchikan to an island with an airport and 50 residents, referring to it by its derogatory label: the "bridge to nowhere."

In the nationally televised speech, she stood by McCain and said, "I've championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. In fact, I told Congress thanks, but no thanks, on that bridge to nowhere. If our state wanted a bridge, I said, we'd build it ourselves."

However, as a candidate for governor in 2006, Palin had backed funding for the bridge. After her election, she killed the much-ridiculed project when it became clear the state had other priorities. She said she would use the federal funds to fill those needs.

This year she submitted to Congress a list of Alaska projects worth $197.8 million, including $2 million to research crab productivity in the Bering Sea and $7.4 million to improve runway lighting at eight Alaska airports. A spokesman said she cut the original list of 54 projects to 31.

"So while Sen. McCain was going after cutting earmarks in Washington," said Steve Ellis of Taxpayers for Common Sense, "Gov. Palin was going after getting earmarks."


Full article:
McCain had criticized earmarks from Palin - Los Angeles Times (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

So... what we have is the usual in Republican lies, distortions, and hypocrisy... a pork barrel princess being painted as a maverick reformer... but the lipstick on the pig will only work for people who want to believe whatever republicans say - no matter how ridiculous it sounds... Saddam's WMD's... strong economy... maverick reformer.

Acceptance of republican propaganda is becoming a litmus test for gullibility.

[Darkmist]

And due to Alaska's close proximity to Russia, she has foreign affairs experience. Or so the McCain camp states. And because she is a woman, all of us need to lay off her or be labeled sexist (and yes, I am a woman). And the media is being unfair in investigating her. Her credentials don't matter. Go after Obama damn it and leave this paragon of virtue alone.

Give a speech in Texas after your water broke, with a DS child, stay a half hour, fly home 11 hours telling no one on the flight you are pregnant and
drive 35 miles to a specific town to deliver . . . Why?

Hubby a separatist and involved in her government though he's a citizen and not an elected official . . . (involved in the actual process not just hon this has been a hard day crap), pork barrel, corrupt, fundie . . .

(Yes I know it's biased but read the Huffington Post on her church. Jim Jones anyone?)

Every day I laugh and cry. Laugh because she's so absurb, yet not for a man who names Putin on video as ruler of Germany. (Youtube) Cry because in the unlikely chance they win . . . well I never liked mosquitoes or poisonous critters, but South America or even Australia, here I come.

[HeyZeus]

Vote McCain-Stroke today!

I love it...funny. But didn't y'all see McCain trot his 90-something mother out on the campaign trail to suggest his virility and longevity? True story--Gramz McCain came out on the campaign trail and the put her on a trampoline and had her doing knee and butt bounces. She wouldn't flip because she was wearing a dress...

[Avid]

I love it...funny. But didn't y'all see McCain trot his 90-something mother out on the campaign trail to suggest his virility and longevity? True story--Gramz McCain came out on the campaign trail and the put her on a trampoline and had her doing knee and butt bounces. She wouldn't flip because she was wearing a dress...

I hope you are joking. I have to go look that up.

[DrEast]

I actually like Palin more than any other candidate on either ticket because she seems a lot more human than any of the rest of 'em do. Since when was the president supposed to be a god?

Of course, this is the same line of logic that leads me to vote for whoever would screw up the country most, so we can stop the totalitarian trend when we realize that the presidency isn't supposed to be a dictatorship, and that government doesn't dictate personal responsibility. So you probably shouldn't pay too much attention to my opinion here.

[HeyZeus]

Her ankles are kinda nice. And she looks good in those eye-talian style glasses.

I am not yet ready to anoint her "the realest" of the candidates 'cuz I can't watch those speeches...robotic.

I was warmed a bit by the young impregnator flying in to bring his special 17 year old lady a bouquet though...kid is like a young Timberlake.

I will watch McCain for the lampooning potential thought. Hope Gramz shows up in her neon jumpsuit.

[Henry]

I actually like Palin more than any other candidate on either ticket because she seems a lot more human than any of the rest of 'em do. Since when was the president supposed to be a god?

Um, yeah, that's right, I want the trash I meet on the streets making decisions on macroeconomics and geopolitcs. Its certainly worked well for the past 8 years.

I don't ever want another president with an IQ below 130. Or a veep with an IQ below 110.

[Colette]

I was warmed a bit by the young impregnator flying in to bring his special 17 year old lady a bouquet though...kid is like a young Timberlake.


Oh the self-confessed redneck who apparently doesn't want kids? Well, he's got 'em now :)

[Airius]

There's too much attention on her family life for me that I believe they're using to their advantage. I asked mom what she thought about the speech tonight and I quote, "She gave a wonderful speech, and her family looks so sweet, that baby...."

I don't want to know about her baby. I want to know about her qualifications.

[Colette]

There's too much attention on her family life for me that I believe they're using to their advantage. I asked mom what she thought about the speech tonight and I quote, "She gave a wonderful speech, and her family looks so sweet, that baby...."

I don't want to know about her baby. I want to know about her qualifications.

Yeah that's what I said earlier on too, but I think we all knew which direction this thread was headed in, and it wasn't toward incisive political analysis ;)

[HeyZeus]

Bob Shrum can give you insightful analysis. Carville too. The Osmond Family Singers? They're fine entertainers, but they won't give you that punchy political analysis. This forum? It's a grab-bag. I'm on record that I'm here for irreverent humor.

This morning, web is abuzz that "a star is born" in Palin. She's just a veep. McCain is the key problem with the republican ticket. She's the problem in waiting.

I agree with Airius that the GOP is trying to mold this into a family values victory by flying in the young impregnator and now THEY'RE GETTING MARRIED. I haven't been this happy about a relationship since I saw Cinderella!

[DrEast]

Um, yeah, that's right, I want the trash I meet on the streets making decisions on macroeconomics and geopolitcs. Its certainly worked well for the past 8 years.

I don't ever want another president with an IQ below 130. Or a veep with an IQ below 110.

See, that's a fundamental problem in America today. The president isn't supposed to be making decisions on macroeconomics and geopolitics. In a free society, the first would be handled by the markets (or, if you're of a more progressive bent, Congress), and the second would be handled by Congress. The president is not the decider!

[void]

See, that's a fundamental problem in America today. The president isn't supposed to be making decisions on macroeconomics and geopolitics. In a free society, the first would be handled by the markets (or, if you're of a more progressive bent, Congress), and the second would be handled by Congress.

In an ideal scenario. However Congress has been in cahoots with GWB et al for a long time. You're also trivializing the role of a president by arguing that one with an IQ of 130 is no better than one with an IQ of 90 (no offense, but that's just absurd).

The president is not the decider!

That's the kind of talk that will get you thrown in Gitmo. How dare you question the Glorious Leader's assertion that he is The Decider(TM)? Are you some kind of America-hating terrorist?

[Henry]

See, that's a fundamental problem in America today. The president isn't supposed to be making decisions on macroeconomics and geopolitics. In a free society, the first would be handled by the markets (or, if you're of a more progressive bent, Congress), and the second would be handled by Congress. The president is not the decider!

The president is the single most influential person when it comes to tax and spending policy decisions. And these have a huge macroeconomic impact, and a bad president can really mess things up.

The president is supposed to be making decisions on geopolitics, often with the approval of congress but really its up to the president to make the decisions. Read the constitution.

[Riverratt]

I don't want to know about her baby. I want to know about her qualifications.

Actually, take a good look, Her qualifications are better than Obama's... Elected to Mayor, Defeated an incumbent Governor,and BEAT him in a primary election, than beat a former Democratic Governor in the general election.

She has an 80%+ approval rating in Alaska...REMARKABLE by any standard

And "Change" she would bring, she brought corruption charges against the chairman of her own party, in Alaska.

In truth, this woman should be at the TOP of the ticket.

[SShack]

Ugh, talking points! Run! Run!

[Riverratt]

Ugh, talking points! Run! Run!


Talking points?? From whom???

[DrEast]

The president is supposed to be making decisions on geopolitics, often with the approval of congress but really its up to the president to make the decisions. Read the constitution.

I have read the constitution. It's congress's prerogative to accept or reject treaties, and to declare war. Any use of military force outside of a declaration of war is a clear abrogation of the constitutional imperative, but it's a generally accepted one. In other words, the people currently in place to safeguard the constitution are, collectively, failing to do so.

Of course, part of that problem is that the constitution is a horribly regressive document. Its sole intention is the limitation of federal power. The federal government's main desire, of course, is the increase of federal power, so that they can "do their job." There's a fundamental philosophical point embedded in that concept that almost never gets raised: What is the responsibility of government? Why is everything considered government's job?

When Katrina hit, and FEMA failed, was it a failure on Bush's part, or was it, in fact, a problem inherent in the very concept of FEMA: That the Constitution doesn't GIVE the federal government power to spend money on ecological crises, and that's an assumption of power that should never have taken place? Katrina would have been terrible either way, but governments are terribly inefficient at just about anything but violence. Not only did FEMA fail at its own task, but it made sure that all other attempts to aid the people were rendered inefficient too, since it claimed jurisdiction where it really had none.

In any event, the president has veto powers, but all those can do, logically, is prevent things. They're intended to prevent unconstitutional acts of congress. This is not the way they are used today.

Y'see? The problems go so much deeper than Obama vs. McCain, Palin vs. Biden (we don't hear much about Biden these days, do we?). It's a push in the direction of a totalitarian view of federal power with the full support of the people, and nobody in the electorate seems to be realizing it.

[Josh]

Actually, take a good look, Her qualifications are better than Obama's... Elected to Mayor, Defeated an incumbent Governor,and BEAT him in a primary election, than beat a former Democratic Governor in the general election.
She was a mayor of a town with 7000 people and a governor of a state with a smaller population than detroit. Anyone can win a popularity contest, it just takes political saavy, reading a speech well, and the ability to manipulate people.
She has an 80%+ approval rating in Alaska...REMARKABLE by any standardBush had an 80% approval rating when he invaded iraq. She increased spending, increased taxes, and went from a balanced budget to 22 million in debt.
And "Change" she would bring, she brought corruption charges against the chairman of her own party, in Alaska.She did this to feed her insatiable political aspirations and make a name for herself. Why do you think she was elected governor?
In truth, this woman should be at the TOP of the ticket.
No for gods sakes, i trust McCain more than her, and that is saying a LOT.

[Samvega]

Did a quick google search for probability of McCain dying in office (I thought surely someone has already done the math, and I was right). Found the following:

Based on the statistical probability of any person dying at a certain age:

Okay, these are my computations so far. Using the probability of McCain dying between ages 72-73, 73-74, etc., I multiplied his chances of surviving together for four years, and then for the next four years if re-elected.

These numbers are as follows:
Term one: .96797*.96482*.96127*.95759 (death rates around 3.5 percent), providing a four year total giving McCain a 85.97 percent chance of surviving term one, or a 16.03 percent chance of death.

Term two: .95383*.94967.94492*.93950, providing an 80.41 percent chance of surviving his second term.

These numbers combined give John McCain a 69.13 percent chance of staying alive for two whole terms, or a 30.87 percent chance of dying.

In a further calculation, to account for stress, I have added 20 percent of the death rate. For example, if the death rate for a particular age is 3 percent, McCain's would be 3.6 percent. These totals give McCain's chance of staying alive 83.35 percent for term one (only down about 2.5 percent), 76.87 percent chance for staying alive in term two, and a 64.07 percent chance of staying alive for both terms.

So, McCain has roughly a 35.93 percent chance of dying in two terms in office (30.87 percent chance before stress).

Now, in addition, McCain would take office about six months from now. Chance of death from age 71-72 is 2.9363 percent. 6 months would be the square root of 1.029363, or 1.4575 percent (98.543 percent living).

In total, McCain has a 63.14 percent chance of staying alive long enough to serve two terms, or a 36.86 percent chance of dying. With using normal, no stress levels, it is still 31.88 percent.

I believe these numbers are entirely fair for Mr. McCain, and they do not include such things as presidential assassination risk, which are difficult to predict.

What do you think? Obama is about 25 years younger...

[PHS Philip]

Actually, take a good look, Her qualifications are better than Obama's... Elected to Mayor

Man, those towns of 9,000...they're like mini-Americas, right? Oh, wait... Defeated an incumbent Governor,and BEAT him in a primary election, than beat a former Democratic Governor in the general election.

OH MY GOD, SHE CAN CAMPAIGN WELL!!!

She has an 80%+ approval rating in Alaska...REMARKABLE by any standard

Yes, yes, that approval rating has come from dealing with numerous internationa...wait, what's that you say? The president often deals with completely different sorts of issues than the governors? Madness!

And "Change" she would bring, she brought corruption charges against the chairman of her own party, in Alaska.

Where to start...firing her police chief because she didn't like him? Trying to fire a librarian for stocking books she didn't approve of? Troopergate (if it turns out to be true)? Supporting anything and everything that would get money into Alaska, useless waste of taxpayer money or no?

In truth, this woman should be at the TOP of the ticket.

:laugh:

[xtremegeek]

Actually, take a good look, Her qualifications are better than Obama's... Elected to Mayor, Defeated an incumbent Governor,and BEAT him in a primary election, than beat a former Democratic Governor in the general election.

She has an 80%+ approval rating in Alaska...REMARKABLE by any standard

And "Change" she would bring, she brought corruption charges against the chairman of her own party, in Alaska.

In truth, this woman should be at the TOP of the ticket.

Hmmm...what's the population of Alaska compared to the population of Illinois?

[Aeroscoper]

In the past, politicians were just regular Americans, that just happened to be successful leaders. They weren't "professional" politicians, they were good people that had character and wisdom. They progressed into politics not by selfish ambitions, but by those around them compelling them to take the lead, and they did this begrudgingly. Those are the politicians I would want to lead me.

Today you have people that want to get into politics for the wealth and power. They go to all the right schools, know all the right people, and kiss all the right asses, and get into bed with just the right groups.

The framers and fathers of this nation never intended politicians to ever do it full time, they wanted people that represented the people and were from the people. Europe had taught a very painful lesson when this wasn't the case.

Think of those on the tickets today and think of which category of "politicians" they represent. The framers believed this nation would last 200 years, depending on this election, it could be close...

[TheLastMohican]

I like the choice of Palin, considering the other options. As a campaign move, it was clever. Not surprisingly, she is milking her status as a matriarch for all it's worth, effectively capitalizing on her youngest's Down Syndrome. She is working to build on her image as a backwoods type, using it as an appealing contrast to the stuck-up narcissist that Obama is being portrayed as.

[Aeroscoper]

I think it's just about the only thing I can think of that made me think McCain had any intelligence. The play was a good one, countering and subduing many of the plays by the Demo's. Yeah she's definitely milking the down syndrome kid and everything else, but when in Rome...

[mind_wander]

I question to all the female NF/NTs, I know Palin's speech reached out towards the SFs females. Does her speech reached out to you? Sorry, if you already answered. I am too lazy to read back the threads.

[azelismia]

Actually, take a good look, Her qualifications are better than Obama's... Elected to Mayor, Defeated an incumbent Governor,and BEAT him in a primary election, than beat a former Democratic Governor in the general election.

She has an 80%+ approval rating in Alaska...REMARKABLE by any standard

And "Change" she would bring, she brought corruption charges against the chairman of her own party, in Alaska.

In truth, this woman should be at the TOP of the ticket.


all except we're talking alaska where there is no serious competition. there are very few people up there. it doesn't take much to do what she's done in that climate. Alaska is terribly corrupt and small town.





azelismia added to this post, 2 minutes and 1 seconds later...

Hmmm...what's the population of Alaska compared to the population of Illinois?


exactly.. and who are they? Illinois is full of qualified people.. Alaska is not.

[enWTFp]

McCain's Running Mate For all I know it seems to be a woman.


(you never can tell with politicians)

[Colette]

I question to all the female NF/NTs, I know Palin's speech reached out towards the SFs females. Does her speech reached out to you? Sorry, if you already answered. I am too lazy to read back the threads.

No. She's scary in her dogmatism, and she talks in simplistic populist slogans. Her speech (obviously not written by her) reminded me of Reagan's.

[DrEast]

No. She's scary in her dogmatism, and she talks in simplistic populist slogans. Her speech (obviously not written by her) reminded me of Reagan's.

We're going to have to start distinguishing between objections based on the fact that someone's a conservative or a liberal, and objections based on the fact that someone's intelligent or unintelligent, and objections based on the fact that someone's making strategic errors (as opposed to good moves).

Objections based on the fact that someone's a politician will not, in and of themselves, hold much merit, inasmuch as Obama, Biden, Palin and McCain are all politicians to the core.

Given that she's very conservative, comparing Palin's speech to Reagan's is actually high praise. In other words, going up to Palin and with no explanation saying, "Your speech reminded me of Reagan's," would undoubtedly be taken as a compliment.

[Riverratt]

No. She's scary in her dogmatism, and she talks in simplistic populist slogans. Her speech (obviously not written by her) reminded me of Reagan's.

My god, to hear most of you all's visceral reaction, you would have thought I had insulted your mothers.

And this quote takes the cake.... You do realize that practically all, big time politicos, have speech writers??

INCLUDING OBAMA...

Yea, all that "Community organizing" in Illinois is really paying off, speaking of which, you folks like to talk about Corruption in ALASKA, Lets talk about the legendary levels of it in Illinois, heck, they practically invented "corruption" in Chicago.

And Obama when he was a state legislator, did absolutely NOTHING about it.

This, independent minded woman scares the hell out of left , don't she??

[BallentineChen]

We're going to have to start distinguishing between objections based on the fact that someone's a conservative or a liberal, and objections based on the fact that someone's intelligent or unintelligent, and objections based on the fact that someone's making strategic errors (as opposed to good moves).

Objections based on the fact that someone's a politician will not, in and of themselves, hold much merit, inasmuch as Obama, Biden, Palin and McCain are all politicians to the core.


+1

[SeaCzar]

Sorry to toss this bomb into the thread, but I think that all of the feminists are being uber-hypocrites here. Palin worked hard to be the successful woman that she is (she certainly did not marry her way up), starting as a PTA mom. Let me get this straight: Just because she's not spewing so much leftist twaddle, she's anti-women? Would someone kindly explain how a woman can be anti-women?

[xtremegeek]

Sorry to toss this bomb into the thread, but I think that all of the feminists are being uber-hypocrites here. Palin worked hard to be the successful woman that she is (she certainly did not marry her way up), starting as a PTA mom. Let me get this straight: Just because she's not spewing so much leftist twaddle, she's anti-women? Would someone kindly explain how a woman can be anti-women?

Do we women only have value if we can crank out babies? That's her stance, "Hey world look at me. Worship me because I cranked out 5 babies!" Read the article by Anne Kilkenny, an Alaskan woman familiar with Sara Palin. Ms. Palin doesn't care about women; she doesn't care about children; she doesn't even care about her husband and family. She just cares about being in the limelight. If she cared about women, she would know and understand the difference between rape and knowingly getting pregnant. She'd know and appreciate the difference between a single working mother and a woman who works but has the support of her husband. If she cared about women, she would question why so many women are paid 25% less than their male counterparts who perform identical jobs. If she really cared about women, she would speak to all women...not just the upper-middle class white women cranking out babies.

As a woman, I am quite offended by Ms. Palin. She does not represent me and the notion that throwing a woman into the political ring would automatically draw the female vote is also quite offensive.

[DrEast]

Do we women only have value if we can crank out babies? That's her stance, "Hey world look at me. Worship me because I cranked out 5 babies!" Read the article by Anne Kilkenny, an Alaskan woman familiar with Sara Palin. Ms. Palin doesn't care about women; she doesn't care about children; she doesn't even care about her husband and family. She just cares about being in the limelight. If she cared about women, she would know and understand the difference between rape and knowingly getting pregnant. She'd know and appreciate the difference between a single working mother and a woman who works but has the support of her husband. If she cared about women, she would question why so many women are paid 25% less than their male counterparts who perform identical jobs. If she really cared about women, she would speak to all women...not just the upper-middle clase white women cranking out babies.

As a woman, I am quite offended by Ms. Palin. She does not represent me and the notion that throwing a woman into the political ring would automatically draw the female vote is also quite offensive.

All that said, I feel compelled to point out that there are a great many women who do believe as Ms. Palin do, and it was a masterstroke of McCain's to pull her in as a VP. For one thing, it completely polarized feminism into right- and left-wing factions, which at the least cut Obama's support from voters who vote strictly on feminist principles by about a quarter, and what's more, pulled a great deal of that vote McCainward.

So from the point of view of actually winning elections, I'm impressed. And if you can't win an election, of course, all the noble beliefs in the world are worth diddly squat.

That said, I'm primarily libertarian, so I'd still like to see someone who'll sacrifice power and the government's ability to do anything, from wage war to help those in need, when they get into office. Neither major party's gonna do that.

[xtremegeek]

All that said, I feel compelled to point out that there are a great many women who do believe as Ms. Palin do, and it was a masterstroke of McCain's to pull her in as a VP. For one thing, it completely polarized feminism into right- and left-wing factions, which at the least cut Obama's support from voters who vote strictly on feminist principles by about a quarter, and what's more, pulled a great deal of that vote McCainward.

So from the point of view of actually winning elections, I'm impressed. And if you can't win an election, of course, all the noble beliefs in the world are worth diddly squat.

That said, I'm primarily libertarian, so I'd still like to see someone who'll sacrifice power and the government's ability to do anything, from wage war to help those in need, when they get into office. Neither major party's gonna do that.

I disagree. I think that there are far fewer women who can relate to Palin's situation. I predict that the election results will demonstrate this. I guess we won't really know until November though.

[PHS Philip]

In the past, politicians were just regular Americans, that just happened to be successful leaders. They weren't "professional" politicians, they were good people that had character and wisdom.

If you don't mind, could I ask when this golden age was? Was it at the time of Grant? The time of Jackson? Of Hamilton?

[DrEast]

I disagree. I think that there are far fewer women who can relate to Palin's situation. I predict that the election results will demonstrate this. I guess we won't really know until November though.

Well, elections have far more variables than the gender differences involved. Deciphering them is both difficult to do correctly and, being a prime example of a posteriori reasoning, not necessarily a beneficial undertaking in any event.

[PHS Philip]

This, independent minded woman scares the hell out of left , don't she??

You're cute. "If you don't like her, YOU'RE SCARED OF HER!" No, I'm not scared of her. I'm scared of the thought of an ignorant, inexperienced fool running America.

[xtremegeek]

Well, elections have far more variables than the gender differences involved. Deciphering them is both difficult to do correctly and, being a prime example of a posteriori reasoning, not necessarily a beneficial undertaking in any event.

Good grief Charlie Brown, just say it!!! They'll pull it out of their asses.

[DrEast]

Good grief Charlie Brown, just say it!!! They'll pull it out of their asses.

What she said.

[xtremegeek]

What she said.

lol...rolls eyes

[azelismia]

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Even heart (the band) finds Palin insulting...

[Snowdragon]

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Even heart (the band) finds Palin insulting...

Speaking of insulting...

McCain's choice makes a mockery of Hillary supporters (i.e. me). How dumb does he think we really are? I don't give a rat's ass about gender, I care about the issues they stand on. I would like to see a woman in office as much as the next woman but I can't stand the sight of this self-aggrandizer, Palin.

I didn't mean to sound like an SF





Snowdragon added to this post, 12 minutes and 0 seconds later...

Palin reminds me of Nicolae Ceausescu. :scared:

Nicolae Ceausescu (1918-1989) was once the dictator of Romania who cared about how many babies a woman can squeeze out despite the high rates of unsurvivable poverty and prolonged periods of famine. The two are so much alike.

[xtremegeek]

Some people seem to count their children among their possessions - the more they have, the wealthier they perceive themselves to be, and they place themselves in a higher level of importance in the food chain. I have a real problem looking at children as possessions. Even couples like Angelina/Brad and Madona/Guy bother me in this regard.

[kimsaid]

Sorry to toss this bomb into the thread, but I think that all of the feminists are being uber-hypocrites here. Palin worked hard to be the successful woman that she is (she certainly did not marry her way up), starting as a PTA mom. Let me get this straight: Just because she's not spewing so much leftist twaddle, she's anti-women? Would someone kindly explain how a woman can be anti-women?

She is George Bush in a dress without the pedigree. It is not that she is a woman, it is the kind of person that she is. There is no anti-woman sentiment, that is like saying if you didn't vote for George Bush then you are anti-Texan. (Although he is the only Bush baby not born in Texas and who has that fake cowboy accent. Where did he get that? In prep school? It is just so odd. I lived in Florida when Jeb Bush was Governor, he was born in Texas but no fake accent. Ditto for the rest of 'em.). There is a larger question here - Fake President??? Bought "the ranch" in 1999 to look like Reagan but afraid of horses...I digress.

I don't know what leftist twaddle is but George Bush In a Dress is, like him, unqualified to be president. Yes, I am afraid of her. Be very afraid.

[Snowdragon]

Palin is just another Katherine Harris if you ask me.

[kimsaid]

Palin is just another Katherine Harris if you ask me.

Yikes. Crazyville. Harris' staff actually revolted and left pretty much en masse near the end. She apparently spent a lot of time firing people, sound familiar?

Edit: Congressional staff. Don't know about Florida...

[blueback]

If she cared about women, she would know and understand the difference between rape and knowingly getting pregnant.
Not necessarily.

If she's an adherent of Natural Law (generally Christian) she would think that it is wrong to do something wrong to accomplish something right. Since she also believes that a human is produced at the moment of conception, and therefore killing it is murder, and murder is wrong, it is wrong to abort. Always.

Natural Law dictates that you cannot do things that are wrong, no matter how much good you could accomplish by doing them. Since murder is always wrong, you can't murder, even to save a life; even to save a million lives.

I disagree, but Natural Law is a pretty well established philosophy especially in religious circles. It makes the world very simple.

[kimsaid]

Not necessarily.

Natural Law dictates that you cannot do things that are wrong, no matter how much good you could accomplish by doing them. Since murder is always wrong, you can't murder, even to save a life; even to save a million lives.



Unexpected. Aren't you in favor of capital punishment and pre-emptive war? This appears like cognitive dissonance. Please explain further

[Henry]

She is George Bush in a dress without the pedigree.

Uh her speech showed far lower integrative complexity than Bush's pre-election speeches, and her background is more weak than Mr. Bush. He at least had an MBA and a decent undergraduate degree. She's a commmunications major from Idaho running for veep? lolwut

This will eventually backfire on McCain. Its impossibly shallow, she's not qualified, and this will show.

[blueback]

Aren't you in favor of capital punishment and pre-emptive war?


I don't remember saying anything about capital punishment, but I do remember saying this:


I disagree, but...

[void]

This will eventually backfire on McCain. Its impossibly shallow, she's not qualified, and this will show.

It will not backfire. The Republicans have an awe-inspiring ability to propagate misinformation and distract people from actual issues. It worked the last two times. It will work again.

I'm calling it 51% - 47% in favor of McCain.

[kimsaid]

I don't remember saying anything about capital punishment, but I do remember saying this:

My mistake. I must have you confused with someone else who was posting last night...





kimsaid added to this post, 11 minutes and 13 seconds later...

It will not backfire. The Republicans have an awe-inspiring ability to propagate misinformation and distract people from actual issues. It worked the last two times. It will work again.

I'm calling it 51% - 47% in favor of McCain.

Yes, half of politics is theatre. They both use it, but one side is definitely better than the other. However, I wonder if people are more aware of the tactics this go around?

[Mechanical Messiah]

I'm calling it 51% - 47% in favor of McCain.

I doubt it. The last two elections were pretty much 50/50. I don't think there are any MORE Republicans or Democrats this time than 8 or 12 years ago. The only thing that has changed is that millions of people are pissed off about Bush... and millions of young, new voters have been inspired by Obama.

Granted, Palin will help rally the mega-church vote... but no more than the gay marriage issue rallied them in 2004.

I predict that Obama will win by an electoral landslide.

[kimsaid]

Granted, Palin will help rally the mega-church vote... but no more than the gay marriage issue rallied them in 2004.

The Enquirer says they have the goods on her and an extramarital affair. Apparently, it's as well-sourced as the Edwards escapade. Supposed to come out this week. Might make this hard to achieve.

I predict that Obama will win by an electoral landslide.

You may be right. I don't trust the polls. They are usually done by land-line and asked of "likely" voters which I think means voted in the previous election. There are millions of new voters signing up and people under 30 often don't have landlines but cell phones so they are not being included in most of the polling.

[Aeroscoper]

There's been a recent poll that showed that the youth vote are declining in interest as the election proceeds. It makes sense, Obama got people charged up with his "change" message and it was very affective to the youth and those that were sick and tired as how things have gone. But the more people look into Obama and his campaign, its seems it's more of the same, WAY moreso than McCain. I mean McCain's got a track record of going against his own party. He's chose a female as his VP, one's that's got a track record of blowing the whistle against those in her own party.

Obama's track record (what little there is of it), shows he's ALWAYS voted along party lines. He's a lawyer, his wife's a lawyer, Biden's a lawyer, Biden's son is a lobbyist and hedgefund manager. He'll increase taxes, regulation, restrict free markets. He'll cater to entitlement and special interest groups. What's so new about this? He's a darker Carter.

The major difference that's realistic about Obama is his utter lack of experience, and his skin color. There's never been anyone close to Barack in his lack of credentials. You've got identity politics in high gear. This race has exposed which party are the racists/sexists in the country. If you're a white female, you vote for Hilary, black, Obama's your man, white male? John Edward.

Think of the irony.

[kimsaid]

Obama's track record (what little there is of it), shows he's ALWAYS voted along party lines. He's a lawyer, his wife's a lawyer, Biden's a lawyer, Biden's son is a lobbyist and hedgefund manager. He'll increase taxes, regulation, restrict free markets. He'll cater to entitlement and special interest groups. What's so new about this? He's a darker Carter.


Seriously? You're not serious, right?

He'll lower taxes for those making less than $250k. Do you make more? None of my business. What regulations? On the mortgage industry? Paying to regulate is far cheaper than bailing out - check out the news on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac today. It's called corporate socialism. Profits go to the shareholders, losses go to the taxpayers. If you really, fully beleived in the free market, it should really P*ss you off. There is not such thing as "too big to fail." You would rather pay billions on the back end? Seriously flawed money strategy.

What entitlement and special interest groups? The working poor and those without health insurance? First, for entitlement and special interest groups, see above. Also, Jesus's mission statement was about the poor. It's called the Sermon on the Mount. Unless you are one of those who say the poor are poor for a reason and we should just let it be? Goes against Jesus, but if you say so.

The major difference that's realistic about Obama is his utter lack of experience, and his skin color. There's never been anyone close to Barack in his lack of credentials. You've got identity politics in high gear. This race has exposed which party are the racists/sexists in the country. If you're a white female, you vote for Hilary, black, Obama's your man, white male? John Edward. Think of the irony.

No actual support for McCain? Are you saying that we need four more years of the Bush/Cheney experience? We know what you are against, what are you for?





kimsaid added to this post, 16 minutes and 57 seconds later...

Uh her speech showed far lower integrative complexity than Bush's pre-election speeches, and her background is more weak than Mr. Bush. He at least had an MBA and a decent undergraduate degree. .

And, better speechwriters.

She's a commmunications major from Idaho running for veep? lolwut.

You left out the other five schools she attended before she graduated. What was the one that she left because the campus was "too rainy?"

This will eventually backfire on McCain. Its impossibly shallow, she's not qualified, and this will show.

You can buy shares in the prediction market on whether or not she will be pulled from the ticket in October. Google it.

[Aeroscoper]

Seriously? You're not serious, right?

He'll lower taxes for those making less than $250k. Do you make more?


Hah!, you do work for the IRS I knew it! :p I kid.


None of my business. What regulations? On the mortgage industry? Paying to regulate is far cheaper than bailing out - check out the news on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac today. It's called corporate socialism. Profits go to the shareholders, losses go to the taxpayers. If you really, fully beleived in the free market, it should really P*ss you off. There is not such thing as "too big to fail." You would rather pay billions on the back end? Seriously flawed money strategy.

It completely and utterly pisses me off. Here's a bit of interesting history. In the late 90's, there was a huge deal being made by "neighborhood organizers", Rainbow Push Coalition, et al. and others of their ilk, on the disparity of mortgage loans, based supposedly on race. Of course taken individually, there were reasons why some could get mortgages and some couldn't, but that didn't matter, there was a disparity based on racial lines. Thus a huge outcry to "balance the playing field" by the left. So congress, Schumer if I recall correctly being the spearhead, passed legislation to lessen the requirements. That was then, this is now. See any connection? Why does both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac both contribute over a million dollars annually to Rainbow Push? These un-natural quota based and leftist "equality" legislations are destructive. Not to mention how many of those banks that were "bailed out" by congress, who many happen to be former boardmembers of said banks. Thus my mistrust of politicians in general. Not just liberal ones, all of them. So I personally will support the camp that goes for smaller, more limited government, thus limited corruption. And against the camp of larger government, larger bureaucracies, and the inherent corruption that follows. Right now that happens to be the conservative ticket. If and when that ever changes, so will I.



What entitlement and special interest groups? The working poor and those without health insurance? First, for entitlement and special interest groups, see above. Also, Jesus's mission statement was about the poor. It's called the Sermon on the Mount. Unless you are one of those who say the poor are poor for a reason and we should just let it be? Goes against Jesus, but if you say so.



Love the Jesus allusion...interesting. Anyway. If you saw my charitable donations and my volunteer work, I doubt you'd question my understanding of the Sermon. That said, we had a good discussion in another thread about the need to distinguish the roles of religion vs. role of government, not choosing to pick and choose where they should be involved (charity), and where not (governance). To me charity comes from the heart, and that's the only way it can be effective. When you use the guns of government to take from people, to spread about to others in some obscure/random/political way, it's no longer charity, it's another inefficient, ineffective bureaucratic wing of the government. I couldn't imagine a scarier thought than leaving the care of the most vulnerable in our society to the hands of politicians and government workers (shudder), current company excluded of course! Let the taxes stay in the pockets of those that earned it, let human kindness and charity use those resources take care of those that need it. If you question the heart of Americans, look up the donations for Katrina victims, the Tsunami victims, and anything else that happens around the world. Americans are the most generous people on Earth, government extortion or not, and like it or not, Christian ideals are responsible for a large part of that. If you look at how charitable contributions break down between red states and blue states that might back that up. But of course if this happens government wouldn't be allowed to grow God forbid. I mean do you really trust the people that would pay $300 for toilet seats and hammers and have almost half of all budgets unaccounted for right? But emotional leverage is a very powerful tool indeed.


No actual support for McCain? Are you saying that we need four more years of the Bush/Cheney experience? We know what you are against, what are you for?


Heck no, they gave conservatives a bad name. But most of their flaws, from expanding deficits (read fiscally liberal) to not securing our border (read socially liberal), are liberal mistakes. Makes no sense to me to correct a few liberal mistakes with a whole heck of a lot more that's for sure! Whichever party says they'll reduce size of government, and back the concept of individualism and freedom, they get my vote. Right now, that's McCain's camp.

[Snowdragon]

The Enquirer says they have the goods on her and an extramarital affair. Apparently, it's as well-sourced as the Edwards escapade. Supposed to come out this week. Might make this hard to achieve.



You may be right. I don't trust the polls. They are usually done by land-line and asked of "likely" voters which I think means voted in the previous election. There are millions of new voters signing up and people under 30 often don't have landlines but cell phones so they are not being included in most of the polling.

"You can make polls say whatever you want" -Katherine Harris.

She too, didn't trust the polls. When she was told that Senator Nelson "would crush her" she scoffed. She believed that she would beat him despite the fact that she was lagging way behind in the polls. She lost.

[Little Bo Peep]

I question to all the female NF/NTs, I know Palin's speech reached out towards the SFs females. Does her speech reached out to you?
She is the most scary choice conservatives could've come up with.
Power hungry, unscrupulous, anti-abortion, gun touting hockey mumster.
She was chosen to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives hope that her story could be shaped to their advantage and people wouldn't have time to check the discrepancies ( which are plenty). They might be right.
By the way McCain wanted Lieberman, not her, but he is so week in republican standing (McCain i mean) that they decided to take attention off him as much as possible. All this trumping of Palin, as if it is her who is being nominated.
Disgusting, but sadly successful. General public is easy to lead on and wouldn't
try to check things out for themselves.

[SShack]

It seems as though her efforts to censor the library and attitude toward sex education may have been skewed a bit more conservative than she actually is (with her politics anyway). There's no sign she actually attempted to ban any books and while she favors abstinence education (eye-roll) she has said she doesn't object to teaching other sex ed as long as it's not "explicit," whatever that might mean.

Of course, she would have an easier time countering the exaggerations if she weren't hiding from the press. What people are left with is examining her church to determine her politics, which isn't exactly an accurate reflection of how politicians necessarily behave in office.

[Snowdragon]

I question to all the female NF/NTs, I know Palin's speech reached out towards the SFs females. Does her speech reached out to you? Sorry, if you already answered. I am too lazy to read back the threads.

Her voice is like nails on a black board. Her extreme views, repulsive personality, and the fact that she likes to boast about "being-your-average-hockey-mom" (she's upper-middle class and likes to crank out babies-not your average hockey mom, average stepford wife is more like it) is bad enough. Her speech left a bad taste in my mouth. She doesn't care about the economy, she doesn't believe that global warming exists, she has NO foreign policy experience (living next to two countries doesn't count), has less than 2 years experience as governor (being a PTA mom doesn't count) and has the same mentality as GWB.

[xtremegeek]

Geraldine Ferraro was before my time, but I would love to see a comparison of her, Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin. Ah what the heck, to make it fair, add Nancy Pelosi to the mix, that way we have two Dems and two Reps. Of the four women, who would be the best candidate?

[Aeroscoper]

2 dems and 2 reps?

I count 3 dems and 1 rep. Since you brought it up, how do you all feel about Geradine Ferarro? I understand she's not thrilled with Obama...

[xtremegeek]

Ah that's right Pelosi is a Dem - thanks for catching. Well, we need another female Rep for balance. As for Ferraro, I want to know what her stance is on a number of issues. How does she feel about immigration, alternate fuel, women's pay not equal to men's, abortion, shifting tax dollars to private or magnet schools, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Anyone know Ferraro's stance on these issues?

[Aeroscoper]

I believe she was a Vice Pres candidate under Walter Mondale. From what I remember, pretty across the board liberal stance when it comes to the categories you mentioned. She's also a member of the National Women's Hall of Fame.

Last thing I've heard about her was when she said:

“If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”

and she was subsequently removed from Hilary's staff.

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I thought she did a lot for women in this country, the first woman to be nominated as V.P. in the country.

[kimsaid]

"You can make polls say whatever you want" -Katherine Harris.

She too, didn't trust the polls. When she was told that Senator Nelson "would crush her" she scoffed. She believed that she would beat him despite the fact that she was lagging way behind in the polls. She lost.

Yes, but Katherine Harris is a special kind of politican, with reality being a COMPLETELY foreign concept to her and all. Which is the kind of Republican you want representing you in Congress. The gossip blogs in DC were priceless about what her staff was suffering through. Speaking of her staffers and their torturous career turn...one is writing a book...

There is supposed to be a new book coming out in a few months...Winter 2009: Expect tell-all book about ex-Rep. Harris
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[xtremegeek]

I believe she was a Vice Pres candidate under Walter Mondale. From what I remember, pretty across the board liberal stance when it comes to the categories you mentioned. She's also a member of the National Women's Hall of Fame.

Last thing I've heard about her was when she said:

“If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”

and she was subsequently removed from Hilary's staff.

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I thought she did a lot for women in this country, the first woman to be nominated as V.P. in the country.

At the time she was on the ticket with Mondale, I wonder how many women were registered voters. I wonder if that number has changed much over the past few decades. Perhaps, the outcome would be different today.

I would love the statistical breakdown of women registered voters, as a percent of the population since 1922. Slice and dice it by party, by economic background, by ethnicity, then finally by level of education.

[Aeroscoper]

I've been "collecting mental data" on that topic for a long time now, (amongst thousands of others). I'd find it fascinating I'm sure.

[kimsaid]

Hah!, you do work for the IRS I knew it! :p I kid.

It completely and utterly pisses me off. Here's a bit of interesting history. In the late 90's, there was a huge deal being made by "neighborhood organizers", Rainbow Push Coalition, et al. and others of their ilk, on the disparity of mortgage loans, based supposedly on race. Of course taken individually, there were reasons why some could get mortgages and some couldn't, but that didn't matter, there was a disparity based on racial lines. Thus a huge outcry to "balance the playing field" by the left. So congress, Schumer if I recall correctly being the spearhead, passed legislation to lessen the requirements. That was then, this is now. See any connection?
.

No. This is most often brought up by white male Republicans, but no. Economics is one of my favorite subjects, I buy economics books just to read for fun, and can talk Keynes vs. Friedman all day long, but I don't know what to do with this.

Why does both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac both contribute over a million dollars annually to Rainbow Push? .

Where is the source of this data? Who else did they contribute to? I know they hired lobbyists that are Republicans. It was a requirement by Tom DeLay.

So I personally will support the camp that goes for smaller, more limited government, thus limited corruption. And against the camp of larger government, larger bureaucracies, and the inherent corruption that follows. Right now that happens to be the conservative ticket. If and when that ever changes, so will I..

Need an example from the last eight years, please.

Love the Jesus allusion...interesting.

That was bait, testing to see how compartmentalized your thinking is.

Let the taxes stay in the pockets of those that earned it, let human kindness and charity use those resources take care of those that need it..

Great, I know someone who is having a very hard time without health insurance right now and in need of some very expensive treatment. What is their number?

Heck no, they gave conservatives a bad name. But most of their flaws, from expanding deficits (read fiscally liberal) to not securing our border (read socially liberal), are liberal mistakes. Makes no sense to me to correct a few liberal mistakes with a whole heck of a lot more that's for sure! Whichever party says they'll reduce size of government, and back the concept of individualism and freedom, they get my vote. Right now, that's McCain's camp.

I don't even know what this means.

Let's just list a few of the accomplishments of the last couple of years, shall we?

1. Highest unemployment rate in five years
2. Housing crisis
3. Stretched military (broken military?)
4. Resurging Taliban
5. Energy incomprehension
6. Growing nuclear enemies
7. Global warming doesn't exist...except everywhere
8. Growing lack of healthcare
9. Underperforming schools
10. Failing banks
11. Corporate bailouts
12. Unprecedented deficits
13. Falling value of the dollar
14. Stagnant wages (adjusted for inflation you are probably making less than you were in 1999.)
15. Speaking of inflation, though the "core" inflation is relatively low in nominal terms, the actual inflation rate is around 14% when food, health care, and transportation/fuel is factored back in. Greater than the 11% under Carter, which was pretty bad and one of the reasons they started changing how it was calculated.
16. Skyrocketing tuition and credit shortage in available student loans.
17. The size of the government increased both under Reagan and Bush. Clinton actually decreased the size of government, marginally, but it didn't increase.
18. Automoblile companies asking the taxpayers to loan them billions of dollars so that they can "retool" their assembly lines for energy saving cars. Which could have been part of a comprehensive energy plan years ago.

Government subsidies? You bet. So much for free market economics..

and on, and on, and on.

Your argument for McCain is emotional, not rational.





kimsaid added to this post, 6 minutes and 2 seconds later...



I thought she did a lot for women in this country, the first woman to be nominated as V.P. in the country.

The Republicans tore her up because of her husband's financial issues and "possible" ties to the mafia. Don't know if it was ever proven but he definitely wasn't very helpful.

[invicta]

Originally Posted by mind_wander
I question to all the female NF/NTs, I know Palin's speech reached out towards the SFs females. Does her speech reached out to you? Sorry, if you already answered. I am too lazy to read back the threads.

I find soccer mom types, who identify as Mom rather than as an individual to be far from reaching out to me. This woman's values i.e. beauty contests, religious extremism, anti-choice are repellent.

I don't like to see her admonished for not being a stay at home mom, and especially from women, that's just sad. Her kids have a perfectly healthy father, too.

[xtremegeek]

I find soccer mom types, who identify as Mom rather than as an individual to be far from reaching out to me. This woman's values i.e. beauty contests, religious extremism, anti-choice are repellent.

I don't like to see her admonished for not being a stay at home mom, and especially from women, that's just sad. Her kids have a perfectly healthy father, too.

She should not be admonished for not being a stay-at-home mom. She has a 5 month old with Downs Syndrome and a teenage daughter who is pregnant. I do not believe that now is the time when her and her husband should pursue such a public life. Both of them should take a step back in their lives and focus more on their family and the special needs their children require at this time. I don't mind at all that she works. I just think she is not going to find that life/work balance that is needed if she pursues the White House. If I was in her situation, I would error on the side of my children and expect my spouse to do the same...the White House can wait.

[releviau04]

well i dont give to "craps" about her daughter being pregnant - the 50's are over!!! The Cleavers our way outdated - reality of America folks!!!

[DrEast]

well i dont give to "craps" about her daughter being pregnant - the 50's are over!!! The Cleavers our way outdated - reality of America folks!!!

The section of the country that most reliably votes, statistically, are those who would find that admonishment without merit. Not a criticism, just an observation.

[kimsaid]

She should not be admonished for not being a stay-at-home mom. She has a 5 month old with Downs Syndrome and a teenage daughter who is pregnant. I do not believe that now is the time when her and her husband should pursue such a public life. Both of them should take a step back in their lives and focus more on their family and the special needs their children require at this time. I don't mind at all that she works. I just think she is not going to find that life/work balance that is needed if she pursues the White House. If I was in her situation, I would error on the side of my children and expect my spouse to do the same...the White House can wait.

I'm sorry but I have to interrupt this. All this stuff is marginally interesting but it's about her story..."How the Moose Turns." (It doesn't. She shot it from a plane. ha. ha. Okay, bad joke.) What about her policies??? Her ideas??? Is what she saying real or fake???





kimsaid added to this post, 1 minutes and 1 seconds later...

I find soccer mom types, who identify as Mom rather than as an individual to be far from reaching out to me. This woman's values i.e. beauty contests, religious extremism, anti-choice are repellent.

I don't like to see her admonished for not being a stay at home mom, and especially from women, that's just sad. Her kids have a perfectly healthy father, too.

[Aeroscoper]

No. This is most often brought up by white male Republicans, but no. Economics is one of my favorite subjects, I buy economics books just to read for fun, and can talk Keynes vs. Friedman all day long, but I don't know what to do with this.


Cool, I love breaking the stereotypes, considering I'm not white, or a Republican. Since you've got such an interest in economics, I"m not sure if you're saying you're unaware of the situation with Cuomo and HUD, or just rather not talk about it. I'm going by memory here going back a few years, but if you want some references I"ll be happy to cite some after some digging, assuming that would really matter to you.

In 2000 a young up and comer in the Democratic party, known for his charm and charisma and silver tongue, (sound familiar), Andrew Cuomo was the treasurer of the Urban Housing and Development Dept (HUD), essentially the only entity that has any control over he Federal National Mortgage Association, ( Fannie Mae ), and the Federal Home Mortgage Corporation, ( Freddie Mac ). Since he was really interested in propping up his gubernatorial future, he decided as most Democrats do, pander. He decided to raise the quotas on low-income/high risk type loans, from 42% to 50%. Of course it was from the kindness of his heart. He also forced government sponsored enterprises (GSE's, or Fannie and Freddie) to heavily invest in very poor areas, but who cares? It was all federally backed, right? This forced those two to start taking on riskier and riskier type loans to meet those quotas, eventually even getting into riskier sub-prime and the dreaded 100%, no money down, "predatory lending" loans, since many in that segment had nothing to put down. Of course there were warnings, especially from people at the GSE's and conservatives, about what all this would lead to. At the time, and I may be a bit off here, Fannie's loans went from $1.2 billion in 2000 when this all started, to $9 bil the following year, then something like $15 bil or so the following with a combined over $80 billion in 03, to this mess we have today. All this time I'm like, what the heck do they think is going to happen??? Then in 2004 during the whole election mess, I read that HUD is pushing to raise it again to 56%. Sprinkle in a little bit of corruption and that big news of Frank Raines, a Clinton cronie, head of Fannie Mae and his $20 million dollar golden parachute amongst rumors of scandal, and you've got a case study in liberal politics. Again sorry about lack of citing but this is the only thing I could come up with in Google.

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I'll try to track some down tomorrow, again, if you really think that would make a difference and I'm not just another "white republican" who doesn't know what the heck I"m talkin' about because I'm....white?. Oh, and I think I'm more from the school of Keynes vs. Say, but I"m old as dirt. OH yeah, who started Fannie Mae and the concept of GSE's in the first place? ohhhh yea, FDR during his spasm of liberal programs...anyone ever hear of the social security crisis??



Where is the source of this data? Who else did they contribute to? I know they hired lobbyists that are Republicans. It was a requirement by Tom DeLay.


Here's one:

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"After Freddie Mac signed a $1 million contract for Rainbow/PUSH to run an “Economic Literacy” program, Jackson’s nonprofit coalition turned around and charged churches $1,000 to enroll in the program, the NCLP said.

Freddie Mac also pledged to earmark $1 billion in mortgage loans specifically for minorities."

And another:

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You have references to your lobbyist charge?



Need an example from the last eight years, please.


What's with you liberals and your shortsightedness? Eight years? You liberals live in a different timeline than the rest of us, B.B.(before Bush) and A.C.(After Clinton) So you want something 1 year B.B.? I'm a conservative, Bush was not, I'll say that right now, but his failings were stemmed from his liberal policies. As much as you hate him, you should hate Obama worse.



That was bait, testing to see how compartmentalized your thinking is.



I'm thinking I failed miserably, then again let me know next time you're trying to test me, pop exams weren't my forte.


Great, I know someone who is having a very hard time without health insurance right now and in need of some very expensive treatment. What is their number?


I'm going to use a word I"ve never used before, you're acting snarky.


I don't even know what this means.


It means you guys are always pointing all of Bush's failings, all which are right out of the liberal agenda. Such as, larger government, more social programs, yada yada yada. Yet you use your dislike of some liberal policies as rationale to support someone who has so much more liberal policies. Very illogical.



Let's just list a few of the accomplishments of the last couple of years, shall we?


1. Highest unemployment rate in five years 5 years? That's like, forever. Long range thinkers INTJ's? Who was pres 5 years ago to account for the great employment then, wish Bush was more like that guy.
2. Housing crisis Above
3. Stretched military (broken military?) Who's responsible for dwindling down the military before Bush got into office again? Clinton?
4. Resurging Taliban Who was the president that broke them down so far that they now are "supposedly" resurging? Who was the president that allowed them to rise to that much of a threat without addressing it in the first place? Where are they resurging again?
5. Energy incomprehension I guess Nancy Pelosi and T. Boone Pickens has the right idea. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
6. Growing nuclear enemies Please, I mean, please explain how Bush is responsible for this. Which side is against National Missle Defense? Which side wants to disarm us from these growing threats? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
7. Global warming doesn't exist...except everywhere except nowhere (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
8. Growing lack of healthcare Please explain how Bush took away people's healthcare, this should be good.
9. Underperforming schools Board of Education, a Democratic entity
10. Failing banks Covered.
11. Corporate bailouts Covered
12. Unprecedented deficits Covered
13. Falling value of the dollar Covered
14. Stagnant wages (adjusted for inflation you are probably making less than you were in 1999.) See High TAXES
15. Speaking of inflation, though the "core" inflation is relatively low in nominal terms, the actual inflation rate is around 14% when food, health care, and transportation/fuel is factored back in. Greater than the 11% under Carter, which was pretty bad and one of the reasons they started changing how it was calculated. See ban on drilling, attack by terrorists, and corrupt HUD charities
16. Skyrocketing tuition and credit shortage in available student loans. See How the heck is this Bush's fault? But take a look at Liberals that run and own Higher Education
17. The size of the government increased both under Reagan and Bush. Clinton actually decreased the size of government, marginally, but it didn't increase. Yes Bush, as I stated to you several times now, not my favorite pres, not really a conservative by my definition. Reagan lost many seats in congress during the 82 midterms, thus lost a lot of momentum, but did well overall. And I liked Clinton, about the most conservative Dem in a while. So all the things you like about Clinton=conservative. All the things you hate about Bush=liberal. Pattern forming.
18. Automoblile companies asking the taxpayers to loan them billions of dollars so that they can "retool" their assembly lines for energy saving cars. Which could have been part of a comprehensive energy plan years ago.
You mean like nuclear? Clean coal? Natural Gas? Oh wait, the spotted horney bush owl is endangered there...not our side

Government subsidies? You bet. So much for free market economics.. I say cut them, cut them all. As long as we lower corporate taxes to be competitive with the rest of the world so our jobs will stop going over seas. See we do agree on something, I knew it.

and on, and on, and on. you forgot he being responsible for Katrina (not Democratic Mayor Nagin, or then Democratic Governor) blowing the levies during Katrina because he doesn't like black people, the tsunami, Darfur, and killing of Bambi


Your argument for McCain is emotional, not rational.


Yes, you know how we males, especially, INTJ males are known for this trait. Talk about the pot calling the kettle culturally diverse.

[Karamazov]

I'm sorry but I have to interrupt this. All this stuff is marginally interesting but it's about her story..."How the Moose Turns." (It doesn't. She shot it from a plane. ha. ha. Okay, bad joke.) What about her policies??? Her ideas??? Is what she saying real or fake???

Is that a rhetorical question?

Genuine or not, her ideas are rather simple minded. Much like her congregation in her native Wasilla church. She has primarily focused on oil taxes and pushing for a gas pipeline. Otherwise, she's a social conservative on just about every "social" issue you can think of.

[Aeroscoper]

She should not be admonished for not being a stay-at-home mom. She has a 5 month old with Downs Syndrome and a teenage daughter who is pregnant. I do not believe that now is the time when her and her husband should pursue such a public life. Both of them should take a step back in their lives and focus more on their family and the special needs their children require at this time. I don't mind at all that she works. I just think she is not going to find that life/work balance that is needed if she pursues the White House. If I was in her situation, I would error on the side of my children and expect my spouse to do the same...the White House can wait.

You make some really good points. Nice to hear a woman actually defending family values. :)

[scholarwarrior]

Heck no, they gave conservatives a bad name. But most of their flaws, from expanding deficits (read fiscally liberal) to not securing our border (read socially liberal), are liberal mistakes. Makes no sense to me to correct a few liberal mistakes with a whole heck of a lot more that's for sure! Whichever party says they'll reduce size of government, and back the concept of individualism and freedom, they get my vote. Right now, that's McCain's camp.

I used to like McCain as you seem to, because he actually USED to resemble the person you describe. I recall him supporting some good environmental legislation, while now he calls for drilling off Florida (promising in months what takes 20+ years btw). Says he'll balance the budget in 4 years by cutting govt waste, which actually gets him...what...1/20th of that? problem is, he abandoned everything he stands for just to get GOP behind him. GOP is the party of the status quo. Even when not in power, that's what they are. They've been wallowing in waste and incompetence for 8 years, and they want to get away with it for another 4-8.
Obama lacks experience, but McCain/Bush/Cheney shows that you can have experience and still not know what you're doing. JFK and others show that if you're competent and have little experience, you can do a great deal. I don't believe that McCain, regardless of his intentions, is capable of doing any good. Its not just about the man, its about the parties they belong to, and the GOP is bloated and spoiled at the moment.

[salsipuedes]

Obama's a mask for the old left-wing machine.

Ted Kennedy must be laughing in his grave... oops, he's still alive.

I laughed when Biden was announced as Obama's running mate. What an old party hack he is. So much for Obama's "Change change change change change."

[Colette]

She should not be admonished for not being a stay-at-home mom. She has a 5 month old with Downs Syndrome and a teenage daughter who is pregnant. I do not believe that now is the time when her and her husband should pursue such a public life. Both of them should take a step back in their lives and focus more on their family and the special needs their children require at this time. I don't mind at all that she works. I just think she is not going to find that life/work balance that is needed if she pursues the White House. If I was in her situation, I would error on the side of my children and expect my spouse to do the same...the White House can wait.

Umm...but isn't that just exactly what you are doing in this post (admonishing her for her decision to pursue public office)? Since when did political leaders ever have (or aspire to) a work/life balance, and since when was that ever part of the presidential or VP job description? I reiterate my earlier point that if Palin were male, no-one would be bothering to explore the intricacies of her family situation and dynamics. The focus would be on her skills and credentials for office, which is where it should be regardless of gender anyway. Her decisions regarding her personal and family life are no-one's business except hers and her family's.

[invicta]

'm sorry but I have to interrupt this. All this stuff is marginally interesting but it's about her story..."How the Moose Turns." (It doesn't. She shot it from a plane. ha. ha. Okay, bad joke.) What about her policies??? Her ideas??? Is what she saying real or fake???

While I was amused at the soap opera reference, did you watch the speech at the RNC? The majority of it was about her personality and her values, and her admiration of McCain's personality and values. She threw in some negative comparisons of Obama's personality too. There was a brief bit about her historical oil drilling policies, but nothing about her plans for the white house, other than saying we need more oil, and that we should confront Iran.

Keep in mind that we are voting or not voting for McCain and not Palin, and as of yet she is not clear on what a VP even does, by her own admission.

[DrEast]

While I was amused at the soap opera reference, did you watch the speech at the RNC? The majority of it was about her personality and her values, and her admiration of McCain's personality and values. She threw in some negative comparisons of Obama's personality too. There was a brief bit about her historical oil drilling policies, but nothing about her plans for the white house, other than saying we need more oil, and that we should confront Iran.

Keep in mind that we are voting or not voting for McCain and not Palin, and as of yet she is not clear on what a VP even does, by her own admission.

Admittedly, until Cheney I thought I knew what a VP did. Now I'm not so sure myself.

[xtremegeek]

Umm...but isn't that just exactly what you are doing in this post (admonishing her for her decision to pursue public office)? Since when did political leaders ever have (or aspire to) a work/life balance, and since when was that ever part of the presidential or VP job description? I reiterate my earlier point that if Palin were male, no-one would be bothering to explore the intricacies of her family situation and dynamics. The focus would be on her skills and credentials for office, which is where it should be regardless of gender anyway. Her decisions regarding her personal and family life are no-one's business except hers and her family's.

The moment someone decides to run for public office, they put their personal life on a stage, under a spotlight. She is being subjected to the same critical eyes that George W went through when his daughter Jenna had a drinking problem; the same critical eyes that watched the Reagans struggle with each other's step-children. To say that she is only under this critical eye because she's female is very naive. She, like any male politician, has chosen to step into the spotlight. And in that spotlight, American voters are assessing her. I for one chose to assess her character partially based on her decision to put her career in the limelight ahead of the special needs of her family. If her husband was running as VP instead of her, I would make the same character judgement. They both should be focusing on their family and get the heck out of the limelight. She can run for president when the children are older and perhaps more prepared (with the help of mom and dad) to handle the spotlight which they would be thrust into.

If she can't put the needs of her closest loved ones before her own at critical points in their lives, what makes anyone think she will put the needs of the american people ahead of her own personal agenda?

[blueback]

If she can't put the needs of her closest loved ones before her own at critical points in their lives, what makes anyone think she will put the needs of the american people ahead of her own personal agenda?
How do you know what her children need? If you can answer that; how do you know more about what her children need than she does?

[xtremegeek]

How do you know what her children need? If you can answer that; how do you know more about what her children need than she does?

Have you spent anytime with a Downs Syndrome baby? Have you had to deal with a pregnant teenager in your life? I have. I don't need to speak to her children to know.

[Josh]

The funny thing is if Obama had a 17 year old who was pregnant, or was involved in an attempt to secede from the union, or he was putting his faith in "God's plan" as the answer to Iraq, or the troopergate thing, or the lies about earmarks and everything else, the country would nail him to a cross. Yet all this crap from Palin gets swept under the rug, because the feminists are there with their fangs dripping ready to accuse anyone who thinks about it as being sexist. I really hope either he or the press grows some balls and exposes her for what she is.

[xtremegeek]

Palin's situation is quite similiar to John Edwards' from an ego perspective. Edwards opted to continue his bid for the White House eventhough his wife was battling cancer at the time. Fast forward a few years, lo and behold, not only was he making a bid for the White House but he was also cheating on his wife. He put his needs ahead of his family's needs...just like Palin is doing during this election. I suspect Palin will be a quick rise/quick fall like Edwards.

[blueback]

Have you spent anytime with a Downs Syndrome baby?

Nope.

Have you had to deal with a pregnant teenager in your life?

Nope.

I have.

Okay.

I don't need to speak to her children to know.

To know. . .what?

Your answer to the question logically destroys itself. I asked why you knew better than HER. Since you are basing your opinion on the fact that you've delt with the same situations she has, what makes either of your opinions more valid than the other?

You still haven't explained how you know better than she does what her family needs.

[kimsaid]

Is that a rhetorical question?

Genuine or not, her ideas are rather simple minded. Much like her congregation in her native Wasilla church. She has primarily focused on oil taxes and pushing for a gas pipeline. Otherwise, she's a social conservative on just about every "social" issue you can think of.

Do you think it is? ha, ha

[xtremegeek]

If the Republicans wanted to capture more of the female vote, why didn't they select a woman with DC experience and staying power like Olympia Snowe? Is it because McCain can't work with a strong woman?

[DrEast]

If the Republicans wanted to capture more of the female vote, why didn't they select a woman with DC experience and staying power like Olympia Snowe? Is it because McCain can't work with a strong woman?

Not conservative enough. McCain wants to win elections, not serve principles. It's McCain! He's a known quantity! Palin was PERFECT. Which is why he went with her, instead of someone he'd probably prefer working with.

This is McCain, the man who managed to set his career on fire by apologizing his way out of the Keating Five. He's the consummate politician. Do you think Snowe would have set the media world on fire like Palin did? Not a chance. McCain's sucked the wind right outta Obama's sails.

[Wufnu]

I'm going to pass on a great money making idea that I read (as a joke) on another forum: Palin blow-up dolls. Man... if you had the resources to get this product on the market within a month, you would make a pretty penny.

[blueback]

You could just ship the ones you have now but include a bear-skin rug.

[Wufnu]

Bear skin rugs are expensive. Not enough margin and too few sales. Best to stick with what's simple. Unfortunately, I have no capital (or understanding if it's even legal). Hell, I can barely afford gas to class.

One of you rich folks can make'em, though. By all means. Hilarity.

[JustMel]

I don't fit the "ideals" of either party. I have beliefs that coincide with BOTH sides. I believe in a woman's right to choose and believe that we should be teaching our children about birth control and sex ed in schools since so many parents choose not to do so at home. "just don't" doesn't work on the majority of children and people who choose to teach abstinence only are finding out it doesn't work--ask Governor Palin.

I believe in the right of every citizen to own a fire arm if they choose provided they meet the criteria and are not a convicted felon. If you outlaw guns across the board only the outlaws will have guns.

I believe in SMALLER government not bigger.

I think the lobbyists should be rounded up and dropped on Alcatraz and left there to live or die. I don't care what they are lobbying for because if the American people gave two damns about their country they would stand up and make a voice that could be heard. Two different parties is a sure fire way to keep people separate. How about running on your merits and actual beliefs rather than those of the party you are affiliated with--what a concept.

I do believe in a stronger military but I also believe that they should be fighting a war to preserve our way of life not because the leader of a country couldn't be handled by the current president's daddy. People can complain about that statement and I don't care. If Bush had really been after Osama he'd have had him by now. If he fould Hussein in a hole he could find Osama in a mountain.

I don't agree with Bush's "no child left behind policy" it has caused a breakdown in education that will probably NEVER be straightend out and given parents a way to ensure their kid passes without having to actually get involved and be a parent when it comes to grades.

Bailing out the mortgage companies is simply cleaning up what was started when they were told to give more loans to meet their quotas. The ARM was a scam that should never have been allowed to happen.

We need a President who will strengthen our borders, lower our taxes, stregthen our schools and families, facilitate welfare reform that will actually work, provide health care and care more about its people than its politics and neither candidate can or will do all of those things.

I will not be voting for Obama. I don't know about McCain and Palin yet. The fact that she is choosing to step into the spotlight in spite of her familial issues is not a bad thing to me. No one would say a thing if it was the man that had 5 kids and one was pregnant and DS. Her daughter is 17---I have a child that is 17 and she's grown enough to get married and raise a child if that's what she chooses. I wouldn't recommend it but if it's what is handed to you then you deal. As for a DS baby--just maybe the kids who don't have a voice other than their parents would finally be heard. I like that idea--a helluva lot.

[Evalind]

I'm just doubtful that it will be the "Change" the Obama campaign proselytizes.
Well, isn't ANY "change" contingent upon the makeup of the house and senate? The president only has so much power when it comes to laws, no matter which side wins.

[DrEast]

Well, isn't ANY "change" contingent upon the makeup of the house and senate? The president only has so much power when it comes to laws, no matter which side wins.

Theoretically, but this hasn't borne out in recent practice.

The house and, even more, the senate have grown decadent. They don't want responsibility anymore, so they keep passing on power. The executive branch has taken to ignoring them completely, which should provoke a constitutional crisis but... that's just too much responsibility. Responsibility is risk! Risk ends political careers! Best to just let the president do whatever the heck he wants, outright cooperate with him on stuff, and then blame it all on him and get reelected.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Evalind]

Theoretically, but this hasn't borne out in recent practice.

A whole lot of "not much" has been getting done recently though... because... Bush doesn't want to hurt McCain's chances...?? What about establishing a "legacy" before leaving office? Wait, the house and senate do have a small majority of Dems. right now... nah...

[zibber]

Anyone seen Tina Fey NAIL a Palin impression on SNL? She and Amy Poehler's Hillary C. did a great job of satirically exposing the hypocrisy surrounding popular discourse on Palin.

(OT: Michael Phelps was surprisingly enjoyable also.)

[DrEast]

Anyone seen Tina Fey NAIL a Palin impression on SNL? She and Amy Poehler's Hillary C. did a great job of satirically exposing the hypocrisy surrounding popular discourse on Palin.

(OT: Michael Phelps was surprisingly enjoyable also.)

If a political person can enjoy their own satirist/parodist, then that satirist/parodist is not pushing the right buttons.

If you want the humor to have any meaning, it's gotta leave its target in a frothing, sputtering rage.

[invicta]

Anyone seen Tina Fey NAIL a Palin impression on SNL? She and Amy Poehler's Hillary C. did a great job of satirically exposing the hypocrisy surrounding popular discourse on Palin.

(OT: Michael Phelps was surprisingly enjoyable also.)

It was good, I liked the exasperation expressed by Poehler's Hillary.

[zibber]

If a political person can enjoy their own satirist/parodist, then that satirist/parodist is not pushing the right buttons.


OR

That person is too oblivious to realize the insulting nature of the satire.

:)

[Aeroscoper]

Palin said she dressed up as Fey for Halloween before. It seemed she found it ironic.

[dragonsscout]

Palin said she dressed up as Fey for Halloween before. It seemed she found it ironic.
Hahaha! All either one has to do is change their hair style and demeanor. I'll have to look up Fey's impression...

[zibber]

This is very interesting.

McCain's camp worries Palin may struggle without tight debate rules (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[invicta]

This is very interesting.

McCain's camp worries Palin may struggle without tight debate rules (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

I don't like to see this. After her Charlie Gibson interview, I was wanting to see how her inability/unwillingness to understand questions played out in a debate with a more classically intelligent person.

I'm glad the story was printed...if McCain dies, what is she going to do? Want special rules for which situations she is capable of understanding? Or, worse, use what she calls her confidence to implement bad ideas without thinking? I realize it isn't her asking for special treatment to accommodate her inabilities, but her own supporters don't think she can handle things on her own. That's not good news.

[Karamazov]

I personally found the Gibson interview to be hilarious. For others though, it isn't a laughing matter, considering the geriatric candidate that Palin might end up succeeding.

If her candid one-on-one is indicative of what to expect in a Palin presidency, then more of the same is ahead.

[gadjitfreek]

This is my take on Sarah Palin:

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[Kris3]

I personally found the Gibson interview to be hilarious. For others though, it isn't a laughing matter, considering the geriatric candidate that Palin might end up succeeding.

If her candid one-on-one is indicative of what to expect in a Palin presidency, then more of the same is ahead.

Precisely. More than anything, that interview showed just how similar she sees things as Bush sees them. Georgia to join NATO, hence forcing us to take military action against Russia? The gobbledegook she spouted in response to Gibson's query regarding her comment about how the Iraq War is a "task from God" was almost unintelligible.

Historically, the VP debate has meant absolutely nothing in terms of winning and losing votes for a candidate. I can't see that changing here, but the Republicans are right to be worried. She would get mauled in anything that resembled a classic presidential debate. However, Biden will have to be careful not to leave himself vulnerable to some sort of garbage buzz-line from Palin like "read my lipstick"...something that will overshadow her ineptitude with regards to the issues presented.

[dragonsscout]

I was getting annoyed during the interview. I was particularly annoyed when Gibson spent about 4 minutes trying to get Palin to answer a yes/no question. She's not really that good at redirecting and skirting questions, but that doesn't stop her from trying her hardest to do so. So much for "honest government."

I'm also not sure if she's really good at acting stupid or if she really is as stupid as she seems. "I can see Russia from my front yard." What kind of answer is that?! She can (maybe) see some frozen bit of nothing. "What is it that the vice-president does?!" Take any basic US government class, and you'll find out. Gah!

Sorry about the rant there. I really dislike her.

Palin seems like she's a great attack dog, but she appears to have the brains of a lemming and a political stance that would make McKinley cringe.

[Aeroscoper]

lol, I think she's great. Can't wait to see how she does as VP.

Anyone catch Biden's response on gun control? I'm pretty sure he made a threat to Obama, yet more comedic relief from our old boy Biden.

[Saint]

lol, I think she's great. Can't wait to see how she does as VP.

do you have, like, a reason for this thought?

[Aeroscoper]

I got, like, lots of reasons, thanks!

[Josh]

Aeroscooper, i have seen you attribute the currently abysmal economy on one occasion to the last 2 years when democrats had control of congress, and on other occasions to Clinton. I guess that 6 year period of executive and legislative control and the republican deregulation you love so much in between wasn't a factor eh? Cmon man you don't just get to pick and choose who to blame while ignoring the facts.

I used to like McCain as you seem to, because he actually USED to resemble the person you describe. I recall him supporting some good environmental legislation, while now he calls for drilling off Florida (promising in months what takes 20+ years btw). Says he'll balance the budget in 4 years by cutting govt waste, which actually gets him...what...1/20th of that? problem is, he abandoned everything he stands for just to get GOP behind him. GOP is the party of the status quo. Even when not in power, that's what they are. They've been wallowing in waste and incompetence for 8 years, and they want to get away with it for another 4-8.
Obama lacks experience, but McCain/Bush/Cheney shows that you can have experience and still not know what you're doing. JFK and others show that if you're competent and have little experience, you can do a great deal. I don't believe that McCain, regardless of his intentions, is capable of doing any good. Its not just about the man, its about the parties they belong to, and the GOP is bloated and spoiled at the moment.

Hey an insightful and accurate post. Bravo.

lol, I think she's great. Can't wait to see how she does as VP.

Ok i know you're quite stubborn and set in your ways politically but surely someone as intelligent as you can't actually believe this. Really?

I got, like, lots of reasons, thanks!

All ears my friend.