Should illegal immigrants be deported?

[Autumnleaf]

Sometimes this topic comes up around here and there seems to be many here in favor of leaving them alone. What do you think? Americans I work with complain about them not learning to speak English and not teaching their children English so their children take up extra teacher time in public schools because the teacher has to teach English to them instead of math or whatever to the class. Then there is their tendency to take low paying jobs which qualifies them for government assistance such as Medicaid and even if they are uninsured they can get 'free' healthcare at the hospitals. This translates to regular Americans having to pay more or the medical places closing for lack of funding. Then there is the economy. Americans are out of work. Employers love hiring illegal immigrants because they are cheaper and they tend to work harder than Americans. Please help fill in the picture where I left blank spots, ie Americans aren't having enough live births to make a tax base to pay for the baby boomers to retire.

How should illegal immigrants be deal with?

[larkin]

You forgot to mention the part where the economy is absolutely dependent on them, because Americans won't take the jobs they have.

You can deport whoever you want, spend whatever on enforcement you want but it won't solve the problem until you deal with the employers.

As for having to "teach them English" - yes, immigrants need to learn English, legal or illegal. We need to find a way to teach them. I'm sorry if that means extra resources being spent by your school district in ways that don't directly benefit every kid. Lots of schools have football programs that don't directly benefit every kid. People get over it.

[Shahira]

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.

[Distance]

You can deport whoever you want, spend whatever on enforcement you want but it won't solve the problem until you deal with the employers.The easiest way to deal with this is to fine employers with hefty fines. Once you've removed incentive for the bulk of illegals to attempt entry since they'll likely starve without employment, you can then deport the smaller numbers.

[babsa]

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.

What part of illegal does not translate to a crime?

---------- Post added 05-27-2012 at 02:26 PM ----------

The easiest way to deal with this is to fine employers with hefty fines. Once you've removed incentive for the bulk of illegals to attempt entry since they'll likely starve without employment, you can then deport the smaller numbers.

That is one way. It is odd that people talk about how terrible the working man has it, but when the employers are unwilling to create incentive for their jobs, it is automatically a crisis that they can not find employees. Whole Goods opened up near where i lived about 4 years ago and offered (i think it was) $10 per hour starting pay for cashiers and store associates, i saw a HUGE line of people, young people, middle-aged people, old people, trying to get a job there.

[SarcasticVlad]

It depends. Can those immigrants contribute in a significant way to the country (scientists for example)? If so, keep them. If not, deport them.

But if only it were that simple. The entire system is broken.

[Traverser]

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.

My sentiments exactly. This whole business of something being illegal (prohibited by the state) equating to a crime is nonsensical. A crime, by definition, involves a victim. How is crossing a geographic boundary harming someone, unless it is crossing private property that was homesteaded? It's hardly different from accusing the Apollo astronauts of illegally immigrating to the moon, when no one has ever homesteaded any of its territory before.

Furthermore, Americans like to blame immigrants for taking advantage of welfare, as if being a citizen gives you a right to someone else's property. By and large, it is mostly American citizens who are feeding off the public trough.

Lastly, we ought to be thankful that the dollar goes further in Mexico and Canada than it does here, as it is the primary reason why these workers are working for less and saving the consumer money. It has nothing to do with any racial predispositions toward work. They are human like the rest of us.

[Distance]

That is one way. It is odd that people talk about how terrible the working man has it, but when the employers are unwilling to create incentive for their jobs, it is automatically a crisis that they can not find employees. Whole Goods opened up near where i lived about 4 years ago and offered (i think it was) $10 per hour starting pay for cashiers and store associates, i saw a HUGE line of people, young people, middle-aged people, old people, trying to get a job there.Part of the incentive has to be the legal residents themselves. If a corporation isn't willing to pay decent wages, refuse to consume their goods.

[babsa]

My sentiments exactly. This whole business of something being illegal (prohibited by the state) equating to a crime is nonsensical. A crime, by definition, involves a victim. How is crossing a geographic boundary harming someone, unless it is crossing private property that was homesteaded? It's hardly different from accusing the Apollo astronauts of illegally immigrating to the moon, when no one has ever homesteaded any of its territory before.

Here we go:
Crime[n]:
1.
an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.

Operating off of the exact definition of the word "crime" it does not have to involve a victim, if it is injurious to the interests of the state and illegal, it is a crime. Illegal immigrants do not ask permission from the state to work under their system, this undermines the established system of immigration where the government is able to choose and potentially fill the demand for whatever workforce deficiency there is. You also get into the aspect of having unregistered people in our society which would have obvious repercussions, not to mention that they have not been initially screened or even given an english competency test.


Furthermore, Americans like to blame immigrants for taking advantage of welfare, as if being a citizen gives you a right to someone else's property. By and large, it is mostly American citizens who are feeding off the public trough.

Lastly, we ought to be thankful that the dollar goes further in Mexico and Canada than it does here, as it is the primary reason why these workers are working for less and saving the consumer money. It has nothing to do with any racial predispositions toward work. They are human like the rest of us.[/QUOTE]

[sunitaishot]

I don't think Americans (or Canadians for that matter) hold a right to be anti-immigration.

Unlike in the Old World the same majority/minority factors don't apply.

[powerplant]

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.



If they are trying to escape poverty or war then they can apply for asylum it is entirely different. Those who want to work in Britain have to have the skills to do so to immigrate legally. If they do not have these skills to do important jobs such as medical care etc then they may choose to illegally sneak in and take low skilled jobs. Like, taxi driver and cleaner. This may in turn prevent other people from the UK who need these jobs from getting them.



"I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. "

This is not sensible in my opinion, suppose 1,000,000 people illegally enter the UK in 2013 under your system they would be allowed to stay which would cause major strain on the services here and further reduce they amount of available jobs. This would cause major friction in the UK which could even cause people to turn to the far-right for answers which will not end well.


Immigration laws exist for a reason as do border controls. The risks posed by uncontrolled immigration can be severe.


I should point out I am not opposed to immigration, (although I have disagreed with your opinion about illegal immigrants here) immigration can help a country but unchecked immigration is not sensible unless you have the resources and large amounts of jobs for these immigrants otherwise this can cause friction as I mentioned earlier on.

[babsa]

I don't think Americans (or Canadians for that matter) hold a right to be anti-immigration.

Unlike in the Old World the same majority/minority factors don't apply.

Any country has a right to impose whatever laws they want on immigration, i don't understand where this rationale is coming from.

[DrMacKay]

usa is the favorite destination for immigrants, it is the opposite of Europe for example, where extremists are growing because of immigration (they blame immigrants of the economic collapse) but it is a mistake, Americans should not be like that, if you do like Europeans do the "American dream" will lose its sens

[Agent 00]

the "American dream" will lose its sens

The American Dream is an American Fallacy any more. I'm fine with immigration as long as taxes are paid and they bear some type of burden with regards to the services they get as citizens do. So I don't think they should be deported, rather sign them up for citizenship.

[Traverser]

Operating off of the exact definition of the word "crime" it does not have to involve a victim, if it is injurious to the interests of the state and illegal, it is a crime.

babsa, I get it; you don't care if anyone is harmed by someone's actions. You only care if it's prohibited by those who like to wield clubs against those who freely act without their permission. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that this kind of legal thinking is dangerous. Would you threaten me if I "illegally" (as per your personal decrees) worked without your permission?

Oh yes, that's right. It's suddenly morally acceptable when you have the support of your neighbors through voting against little ol me. Aint gang violence nice?

Illegal immigrants do not ask permission from the state to work under their system, this undermines the established system of immigration where the government is able to choose and potentially fill the demand for whatever workforce deficiency there is.

The government has no business determining who should work and in what industry. It is Orwelllian to say the least to read posts like these.

You also get into the aspect of having unregistered people in our society which would have obvious repercussions,

Spit it out. What "repercussions" are there for someone refusing to make his associations and identity known to the government? Getting imprisoned by the government? That's a given.

not to mention that they have not been initially screened

Screened for what? Parasites? Criminal thoughts? Americans have those in abundance, metaphorically speaking.

or even given an english competency test.

Apart from the fact that many, if not most, Americans write and speak English poorly...dealing with someone who doesn't speak your language is simple. Either learn their language, or don't deal with them at all.

By the way, if you know as many non-English-speaking, yet very rich, customers as I do...you're going to think twice about staying monolingual.

---------- Post added 05-27-2012 at 08:19 PM ----------

Any country has a right to impose whatever laws they want on immigration, i don't understand where this rationale is coming from.

It's very easy to understand, babsa. If I am not depriving you the freedom to use what is rightfully yours by trade or homestead, what makes you think it okay to forbid travel? What's to stop someone like yourself, based on your own logic, to declare Ganymede (a moon of Jupiter) off limits? Answer: Nothing.

Nothing, except, someone else like yourself...with guns.

[mozartus]

If so, Native Americans ask when y'all going home?

[Booko]

What part of illegal does not translate to a crime?

The part where your parents bring you here as a child and you had no choice in the matter.

[DesertKnight]

It depends. Can those immigrants contribute in a significant way to the country (scientists for example)? If so, keep them. If not, deport them.

But if only it were that simple. The entire system is broken.


This is a point of decent perception. I don't believe that we deal with immigration properly in the United States. That isn't to say I'm against immigration entirely I just believe the system we are currently using is so messed up it needs to be overhauled so that the people who want to come to this country for bettering themselves and their families can, and the people coming here with ill intentions are kept at bay.

This country was founded on the principle of immigration and elitism has destroyed that principle, I believe it needs to come back but I have no idea how that would be accomplished. Politics and opinion are so widely disparate these days that I don't think an amicable solution can be reached. So for the immediate and probably not so immediate future, nothing can be done to fix what is wrong.

[envirodude]

Without respect for the rule of law, where would we be, and where are we going? Change the law, or enforce it. I know this doesn't answer the question, but it should limit the alternatives.

[Doggzilla]

As someone who spent four years completely surrounded by Hispanic immigrants, I can provide some insight.
They do not know how to be Americans, and they do not like to interact with Americans, due to us making them feel insecure and inferior. They know they are on our turf, and they see us as having a great deal of power over them. They do not understand that we want them to be Americans, and they dont feel they can survive in an American world. This is why Hispanics tend to create neighborhoods. They want to be separate.

Having experience with a good deal of Hispanic medical workers, I find that they intentionally harm American patients, and often completely ignore blacks. Many of them trained in Hispanic only classes, never learned the American way of medicine, and many of them resent Americans due to being surrounded by only the sick/needy Americans. They have an absolutely astonishing level of racist hatred for blacks, but the blacks tend to handle it very well.
In professional settings, they do not usually try to emulate Americans. They believe in very strick classes, and those barriers are not to be crossed. They seem to be completely unaware that Americans of any class can interact with each other. A hispanic who is upper class to Hispanics also believes they are above middle class Americans and looks down apon them. They refuse to interact on a personal level with anybody of a different class, either lower or higher.
For instance, I know someone who is the highest class of Hispanic, he is a VP of sale for a telecom company. Hispanics are puzzled by someone of a low American class interacting so closely with this VP. They do not understand that because he is a third generation American, that he does not abide by Hispanic traditions. He has personally expressed to me how strange it is to be segregated from other classes while he is in south America. The others of his stature seem to be blown away when he interacts with low class people. The others have guards and groupies who follow them around, and they think this is normal.
Pretty much, we arent getting through to them. They are mixing the worst of their culture with the worst of ours, and they are suffering for it. They have an abnormally high rate of mental disease.

The most clear solution is to show them the way, try and interact with them more closely, share values, and treat them as equals. This country has developed a nasty habit of allowing citizens to shit all over other citizens. We dehumanize other people in our minds, even those of the same race and social status, and we use it to justify treating them poorly for our own short term gain. Then others do the same to us, and it screws everyone. Peer pressure is the answer to this, make people feel like certain behavior will brand them as trash, and they will avoid that behavior.

[Subgenius]

Americans I work with complain about them not learning to speak English and not teaching their children English so their children take up extra teacher time in public schools because the teacher has to teach English to them instead of math or whatever to the class.


Maybe you should take an English class. This sentence is badly written. What is your job? What kind of work do your coworkers do?

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 12:51 AM ----------

As someone who spent four years completely surrounded by Hispanic immigrants, I can provide some insight.
They do not know how to be Americans, and they do not like to interact with Americans, due to us making them feel insecure and inferior. They know they are on our turf, and they see us as having a great deal of power over them. They do not understand that we want them to be Americans, and they dont feel they can survive in an American world. This is why Hispanics tend to create neighborhoods. They want to be separate.

Having experience with a good deal of Hispanic medical workers, I find that they intentionally harm American patients, and often completely ignore blacks. Many of them trained in Hispanic only classes, never learned the American way of medicine, and many of them resent Americans due to being surrounded by only the sick/needy Americans. They have an absolutely astonishing level of racist hatred for blacks, but the blacks tend to handle it very well.
In professional settings, they do not usually try to emulate Americans. They believe in very strick classes, and those barriers are not to be crossed. They seem to be completely unaware that Americans of any class can interact with each other. A hispanic who is upper class to Hispanics also believes they are above middle class Americans and looks down apon them. They refuse to interact on a personal level with anybody of a different class, either lower or higher.
For instance, I know someone who is the highest class of Hispanic, he is a VP of sale for a telecom company. Hispanics are puzzled by someone of a low American class interacting so closely with this VP. They do not understand that because he is a third generation American, that he does not abide by Hispanic traditions. He has personally expressed to me how strange it is to be segregated from other classes while he is in south America. The others of his stature seem to be blown away when he interacts with low class people. The others have guards and groupies who follow them around, and they think this is normal.
Pretty much, we arent getting through to them. They are mixing the worst of their culture with the worst of ours, and they are suffering for it. They have an abnormally high rate of mental disease.

The most clear solution is to show them the way, try and interact with them more closely, share values, and treat them as equals. This country has developed a nasty habit of allowing citizens to shit all over other citizens. We dehumanize other people in our minds, even those of the same race and social status, and we use it to justify treating them poorly for our own short term gain. Then others do the same to us, and it screws everyone. Peer pressure is the answer to this, make people feel like certain behavior will brand them as trash, and they will avoid that behavior.

Can you back any of this up? This kind of reads like a bad Passing of the Great Race. Maybe you should read it, for it might give you some tips.

[eagleseven]

From what I've read, more illegals are returning to Mexico than are coming, ever since the 2008 crash. Easier to live in Mexico on very little, than in America.

At this point, I think border enforcement is pointless and impossible. I've traveled along the Texas/Mexico border...you can't tell the difference between the Americans and the Mexicans. And you better speak Spanish. Trying to round up that many people, sorting out who has papers, who's hiding illegals, tearing apart families, etc, is a task that would challenge Mussolini. No way in hell the US Government could pull it off.

Honestly, what's the difference if they pick cheap fruit here, or they pick cheap fruit in Mexico which gets shipped to the US (NAFTA)? Whether it's cheap labor domestically, or cheap imports from Mexico, the US worker gets hurt regardless.

[DrMacKay]

Agent 00 wrote: "The American Dream is an American Fallacy any more"

no! compared to USA many country look like hell, I don't agree, my own country is the hell compared to USA.

[thod]

I reckon lots would show up for deportation. It's a free vacation back home, catch up with the relatives, hang out a bit then return to the US. Why pay for it yourself.

[Nonsuch]

It doesn't seem possible to prevent illegal immigration so can't there be found a way to tax illegal aliens ?

[Booko]

What part of illegal does not translate to a crime?

The part where your parents bring you here as a child and you had no choice in the matter.

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 11:13 AM ----------

But if only it were that simple. The entire system is broken.

The system certainly is broken. Why in the Information Age the INS is using paper records (and constantly losing them, apparently) I'm sure I don't know.

Example: I know a grad student who submitted his paperwork in accordance with the law three(3) times and each time the paperwork was lost. He did everything legally required of him, but because INS lost the paperwork he is "illegal." We finally advised him to just keep his head down, finish his grad school, and then return home (which he did). This student's situation is not that unusual.

The problem is few Americans seem to realize just how messed up this gov't agency is, so when they start babbling about "illegal immigrants" the only thing they think of is it's all people who crossed the border to take away our jobs.

But "illegal immigrants" are also people who did everything right but INS screwed them over because they are understaffed, poorly organized, or flat out incompetent. I'm sorry, but your immigration lawyer making an honest mistake on one piece of info on your paperwork shouldn't get you tagged as "illegal" either, but that also happens.

Plus our system needs an overhaul.

Example: Why a Pole needs to get a visa to come here and a Pakistani-born citizen of the UK does not just beats the hell outta me. Many Poles have relatives they are still in contact with in this country and they want to come visit. And I've yet to hear of anyone from Poland wanting to come blow stuff up here. It's ridiculous they should have to pay hundreds of dollars and wait a long time just to come visit their cousins while someone who might conceivably have ties to extremist groups gets a free pass.

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 11:15 AM ----------

Any country has a right to impose whatever laws they want on immigration, i don't understand where this rationale is coming from.

Because Europeans all came here "illegally" hundreds of years ago, and sunitaishot neglects to notice that times have changed more than a little since then.

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 11:27 AM ----------

If so, Native Americans ask when y'all going home?

OK, I'll move back to Europe, but for the rest of me that isn't European, what body part do you suggest I leave behind?

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 11:30 AM ----------

Politics and opinion are so widely disparate these days that I don't think an amicable solution can be reached. So for the immediate and probably not so immediate future, nothing can be done to fix what is wrong.

The politics right now are certainly messed up, but eventually the math will be compelling. The only way we can realistically deal with the demographic bump that is my generation is to encourage sufficient immigration to keep the economy running when few of us are left able to work.

Well, it's not the only way I suppose. We could just leave the Boomers out on the street to die, but speaking of politics, since older people vote more than younger people do that's not likely to become public policy.

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 11:50 AM ----------

The most clear solution is to show them the way, try and interact with them more closely, share values, and treat them as equals. This country has developed a nasty habit of allowing citizens to shit all over other citizens. We dehumanize other people in our minds, even those of the same race and social status, and we use it to justify treating them poorly for our own short term gain. Then others do the same to us, and it screws everyone. Peer pressure is the answer to this, make people feel like certain behavior will brand them as trash, and they will avoid that behavior.

There is some hope, though. If you look at our history from a century ago it was the same old tune but just different groups (Italians, for one example), and those groups were eventually assimilated as well. It's unfortunate it should take a generation or two, but when xenophobia stands in the way, it's understandable it would take longer.

I live among many immigrants as well, since this part of Atlanta seems to be the landing zone for new immigrants (it has been for 25 years). The Russians and Eastern Europeans are accepted very early on in society but as you say, the Latinos are not. The Asians are to some extent, but even so they band together in communities to some extent only because good luck finding the food you want to eat at your local Kroger. They don't exactly stock lemongrass or a variety of choys.

One of the bad PR problems here in Atlanta that the Latino community has created for itself is doing things like offering Spanish classes for the English-speaking peoples already here, not because we might find it useful, but because there's an expectation that contractors and other employers should just learn Spanish and immigrants don't need to bother to learn English. As you might imagine, that pisses people off quite a bit. Many people would give a foreign-language speaker a break if it seems they are at least trying to learn English, but when people act like they can't be bothered and we should all just learn Spanish, the reaction is predictable enough.

Unfortunately there's also the assumption that all Latinos that are here actually think this way, but I haven't found it so. The elementary school where I work as a poll manager is nearly all Latino students. It's a struggle to educate the kids, but they do the best they can. But I meet the parents who are concerned that during the summer their kids have little to do but run around while the parents are working the long hours they work, and the worry the kids will lose some of their English skills. So they look for religious organizations to help their kids continue improving their English over the summer. My community has been involved in efforts like this for years now.

I guess I'm not bothered if immigrants don't have good English skills, probably because my grandparents all spoke English and French-Canadian and my husband's on one side spoke Polish. Sure they could all speak English in public by the time I knew them, but when they first got here...not so much. The next generation doesn't remember much of the original language, and their kids hardly speak a word at all. It just seems to be how immigration works here and how it always has, so I don't get my knickers in a twist if recent immigrants from Asia and Spanish-speaking countries don't speak English well.

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 11:56 AM ----------

From what I've read, more illegals are returning to Mexico than are coming, ever since the 2008 crash. Easier to live in Mexico on very little, than in America.

I can see the difference where I live. It shows up in how many guys are standing in certain places around here and how far the school enrollment fell since the crash.

Honestly, what's the difference if they pick cheap fruit here, or they pick cheap fruit in Mexico which gets shipped to the US (NAFTA)? Whether it's cheap labor domestically, or cheap imports from Mexico, the US worker gets hurt regardless.

I hate to say it, but Stephen Colbert seems to have done the best "reporting" in the issue of migrant workers in this country. Go figure.

And it isn't even about cheap labor. The people doing that labor grew up doing it back home. Hell, just watching the guy arranging the bananas on the stand at the local market is amazing. I seriously doubt most of our youth could hope to keep up with that.

And yes, I've hired guys who are probably illegal to do landscaping work. I've worked with our own folk also. You may not think that short stocky dude from Honduras could outwork a guy from here who's built, but I'll take the guy from Honduras every time because he's just a better worker. But I saw guys in my grandparents' and parents' generation who could do that.

Sorry guys, but in many ways we really have become a nation of wimps.

[babsa]

babsa, I get it; you don't care if anyone is harmed by someone's actions. You only care if it's prohibited by those who like to wield clubs against those who freely act without their permission. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that this kind of legal thinking is dangerous. Would you threaten me if I "illegally" (as per your personal decrees) worked without your permission?

First and foremost, it was not my "personal decree" it IS the DEFINITION of the word crime. Second, no one is threatening anyone with clubs and guns, so save your emotional diatribe for some other soapbox. Lastly, you are absolutely correct, i do NOT have any remorse for someone that is deported because they were here illegally. They disregarded the law on immigration and are being deported in consequence of their actions, not my actions, not anyone else's actions. Would you have the same sympathy for a complete stranger that takes residence in your house without your permission?


Oh yes, that's right. It's suddenly morally acceptable when you have the support of your neighbors through voting against little ol me. Aint gang violence nice?

Gang violence?? What part of voting is interpreted as violence to you? You seem to have an affinity with the victim card. In this scenario, it is completely acceptable, you are not a citizen, and you do not get to a vote.


The government has no business determining who should work and in what industry. It is Orwelllian to say the least to read posts like these.

The government has every right to determine who is granted entrance to our country. The government does not have any right to determine who should work and in what industry. These two statements are not one of the same. Although the government does not have any say in who works what job, it does not mean that the immigration system can not filter applicants by their education or qualifications.


Spit it out. What "repercussions" are there for someone refusing to make his associations and identity known to the government? Getting imprisoned by the government? That's a given.

Screened for what? Parasites? Criminal thoughts? Americans have those in abundance, metaphorically speaking.

Metaphorically speaking? I will disregard that last assertion, as it most likely does not have any bearing on the discussion at hand. You want to know what the repercussions could be from allowing a person to enter our country who could potentially have ties to terrorism, criminal activity, or perhaps even have a communicable disease? I won't coddle you, if you don't understand the dangers of allowing anyone in the country without any sort of medical screening and background check then there is no reason to have any sort of rational discussion with you.


Apart from the fact that many, if not most, Americans write and speak English poorly...dealing with someone who doesn't speak your language is simple. Either learn their language, or don't deal with them at all.

The existence of illiterate citizens does not make illiteracy acceptable. Just like the existence of murders in our country does not make murder acceptable. When someone is a citizen of the country, our country is obligated to deal with them. When someone is NOT a citizen of the country, our country is NOT obligated to deal with them.


It's very easy to understand, babsa. If I am not depriving you the freedom to use what is rightfully yours by trade or homestead, what makes you think it okay to forbid travel? What's to stop someone like yourself, based on your own logic, to declare Ganymede (a moon of Jupiter) off limits? Answer: Nothing.

Nothing, except, someone else like yourself...with guns.

I don't own any guns. The United States is an established government the provides public roads, protection from threats foriegn and domestic, public education, etc. Juptier's moon, on the other hand, does not have people nor a government that can provide any of these things.


The part where your parents bring you here as a child and you had no choice in the matter.

Ahh the ol' baby tether debate. It has no impact on the discussion at all.


The system certainly is broken. Why in the Information Age the INS is using paper records (and constantly losing them, apparently) I'm sure I don't know.

Example: I know a grad student who submitted his paperwork in accordance with the law three(3) times and each time the paperwork was lost. He did everything legally required of him, but because INS lost the paperwork he is "illegal." We finally advised him to just keep his head down, finish his grad school, and then return home (which he did). This student's situation is not that unusual.

The problem is few Americans seem to realize just how messed up this gov't agency is, so when they start babbling about "illegal immigrants" the only thing they think of is it's all people who crossed the border to take away our jobs.

But "illegal immigrants" are also people who did everything right but INS screwed them over because they are understaffed, poorly organized, or flat out incompetent. I'm sorry, but your immigration lawyer making an honest mistake on one piece of info on your paperwork shouldn't get you tagged as "illegal" either, but that also happens.

Plus our system needs an overhaul.

I completely agree, our immigration system needs to be overhauled.


Because Europeans all came here "illegally" hundreds of years ago, and sunitaishot neglects to notice that times have changed more than a little since then.

What of it? Are you saying that we should allow illegal immigration because of this fact, or that you are simply stating sunitaishot's opinion?

[CanrHoldLimes]

I would say they should be deported knowing there were measures put in place to significantly reduce them being able to get into/overstay in the country in the first place.

Deportation costs somebody money, and it's not illegals'.

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 01:58 PM ----------

If so, Native Americans ask when y'all going home?

What's that got to do with anything. Illegals would be deported from an economy not just some land mass.

[Distance]

I don't think Americans (or Canadians for that matter) hold a right to be anti-immigration.

Unlike in the Old World the same majority/minority factors don't apply.This thread isn't about immigration. It's about illegal immigration.

[Booko]

Ahh the ol' baby tether debate. It has no impact on the discussion at all.

Ah, the old "dismissive" ploy.

If we're talking about deporting people who are here illegally, people who are here now as adults who were brought here as small children and don't even remember their supposed country-of-origin or have any link to it certainly does have an impact on this discussion.

Or is there something in our law these days that believes the child should be blamed for the sins of the parents? If so, I had missed that change.

I'm certainly not saying we should open the door of legal immigration to anyone whose parents can manage to smuggle them into this country as a 17-year old and keep them here for year.

But the idea that we should deport people who are far more culturally American than they are connected to the culture of their parents strikes me as absurd. We should be able to find some sensible path to citizenship that isn't just a free pass.

What of it? Are you saying that we should allow illegal immigration because of this fact, or that you are simply stating sunitaishot's opinion?

sunitaishot's opinion, or so I hope.

At least I've seen the argument before that we should just open the borders because the earlier waves of Europeans came here with no immigration requirements. I don't give the argument any serious consideration though, since we're hardly living in the 1600s.

[plotthickens]

If so, Native Americans ask when y'all going home?

Thank you! I was wondering if this would ever be touched. All or none -- if you want to deport all the illegals, OP... you first.

[Traverser]

First and foremost, it was not my "personal decree" it IS the DEFINITION of the word crime.

It was a hypothetical situation, meant to convey a point, which you have, so far, virtually ignored. No surprise here. You're not the first collectivist, and not the last.

Second, no one is threatening anyone with clubs and guns, so save your emotional diatribe for some other soapbox.

Right. Border Patrol and ICE agents are only armed with candy canes and fruit rollups, and they always cart people off with their permission. Uh huh. "Emotional diatribe" indeed.

Lastly, you are absolutely correct, i do NOT have any remorse for someone that is deported because they were here illegally. They disregarded the law on immigration and are being deported in consequence of their actions, not my actions, not anyone else's actions. Would you have the same sympathy for a complete stranger that takes residence in your house without your permission?

Do you not understand what "homestead" (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) means in my the context of my discussion? It means to "claim and settle". So yes, if someone was in my house without permission, which I either bought from someone who homesteaded it, or homesteaded it myself, I would be pissed. But why cart someone off from foreign territory which no one has homesteaded? And with my tax dollars, which are not given up voluntarily?

You don't care. Fine. But I do...because people like you demand that I pay for it.

Gang violence?? What part of voting is interpreted as violence to you? You seem to have an affinity with the victim card. In this scenario, it is completely acceptable, you are not a citizen, and you do not get to a vote.

I'll chalk this up to the failure of whoever schooled you. I was not referring to the voting itself as violence, but voting as a lousy excuse for butting into actions that are none of your business. So a man wants to build a cabin in the middle of the Chihuaha Desert, hypothetically-speaking, which no one has ever appropriated before; how exactly is he depriving you of anything by this mere act, and why does mere voting consistute as a reasonable justification to get involved?

After all, is it not apparent that majority-rule can justify just about anything against the individual? Hence, "gang violence"; it is merely a group who agree together to induce violence against someone, preferably smaller groups.

The government has every right to determine who is granted entrance to our country. The government does not have any right to determine who should work and in what industry.

Because the government says so. I've heard all this before. Meanwhile, the government continues to forbid people from working in this country without its permission. That most certainly constitutes as determining who should work and in what industry; it's just a negative one-size-fits-all approach. Unions must love it.

These two statements are not one of the same. Although the government does not have any say in who works what job, it does not mean that the immigration system can not filter applicants by their education or qualifications.

Oh, there's no disagreement here. Governments already filter people out according to their race, after all, and the Federal Government is no exception. So they most certainly can filter by education and other characteristics. It's social-engineering at its finest. (sarc).

Metaphorically speaking? I will disregard that last assertion, as it most likely does not have any bearing on the discussion at hand.

Disregard whatever you want. I'll let the other readers in the forum determine whether it's hypocritical to ban immigration on the bounds of "screening" when plenty of Americans exist in this country who were never screened in the first place.

You want to know what the repercussions could be from allowing a person to enter our country who could potentially have ties to terrorism, criminal activity, or perhaps even have a communicable disease?

Translation: Everyone must prove themselves both innocent and safe (whatever arbitrary threshold the latter may be) in order to cross certain lands, lest they be kidnapped and sent elsewhere. Nevermind whether the lands in questions are remote from civilization, or whether it's terroristic to threaten otherwise peaceful people with deportation...just because an organized body of people decreed it.

To hell with "no harm, no foul", eh?

I won't coddle you, if you don't understand the dangers of allowing anyone in the country without any sort of medical screening and background check then there is no reason to have any sort of rational discussion with you.

You can wash your hands after touching an illegal immigrant, if that makes you feel better.

The existence of illiterate citizens does not make illiteracy acceptable. Just like the existence of murders in our country does not make murder acceptable.

One is ignorance. The other is a breach of property rights of the worst kind. I find it funny that you'll compare it to murder. I wonder what you'll say about about people who don't know math (like many Americans I know!)

When someone is a citizen of the country, our country is obligated to deal with them. When someone is NOT a citizen of the country, our country is NOT obligated to deal with them.

Never said that they had to deal with immigrants. Merely to leave them alone and respect their enterprise, as they leave others alone with theirs. Apparently, that's difficult for you to understand.

I don't own any guns. The United States is an established government the provides public roads, protection from threats foriegn and domestic, public education, etc. Juptier's moon, on the other hand, does not have people nor a government that can provide any of these things.

Putting aside the naivete of how governments work, there are whole swaths of land in the United States that have no people, let alone public roads and utilities. You must be blind not to see the parallel between preventing someone from exploring these regions, and forbidding people from exploring the regions of space. Simply incredible.

In short, you demand a portion of my income to prevent people from homesteading previously unused land, and to forbid them from competing in the marketplace. Who is the terrorist here?

And one last point here, which I think we can both agree with at least. If you really want to stop immigrants from flooding into this country, then resist the welfare state. You and I both know that people on both sides of the fences want a free lunch at someone else's expense. At least with an immigrant, I can avoid doing business with him or her by denying so. With government; not so much, unless you're comfortable living in a jail cell, or being kicked out of the country altogether.

[Dangime]

I don't have a problem with some immigration. Unlimited undocumented immigration is a problem though. Basically, it is foreign countries using the United States as a crutch. If they can't feed/support their underclass, no worries, they'll just make their way to the USA and send cash back home. This allows them to not reform their nations and remain eternal shit holes. If they had to deal with the limits of their own resources there would be revolutions and reforms in various countries.

Also, people assume food would not get to market if not for illegals. Americans spend a very low percentage on their income on food compared to other parts of the world. Even if farmers had to double their labor costs, the net effect would not be a doubling of food prices since labor is just a fractional part of the total cost of supplying food (transportation, machinery, packaging, storage, retail frontage, advertising). If employers had to offer double what they are offering now for farm labor the food would still make it to market, it would just be more expensive, and no one would starve. There might be less wasteful spending in other areas of the economy though, to make up for the increased costs of necessities. The system would work either way, what we have to ask ourselves is what system do we want, one that exploits the desperation of disadvantaged people, or one that employs people at a living wage.

At a certain point, living standards become a zero sum game. Taking in someone from outside can remove opportunities or benefits from others. In the world today there's not any non-marginal resources waiting to be used by new unskilled people. Those days are gone.

[powerplant]

For the argument of Americans should go back to Europe as the Native Americans were there first. If we did that then why shouldn't all humans on Earth immediately relocate to the Cradle of Humankind in South Africa (and yes I am aware that I am at risk of Reducto ad absurdum and even a straw man). Colonisation and colonialism are in no way the same as illegal immigration.

The question which defenders of illegal immigration need to answer i, why are these people illegally immigrating in the first place?

Is it because there is a war or risk of persecution in their home nation? That would make them refugees or asylum seekers which is not the same thing as illegal immigration.

Immigration laws are in place to help protect the residents of a nation, the services, the security, the jobs and a variety of other areas of a nation that it has in place. Illegally immigrating into a country undermines this and causes problems especially on a large scale.

[plotthickens]

For the argument of Americans should go back to Europe as the Native Americans were there first. If we did that then why shouldn't all humans on Earth immediately relocate to the Cradle of Humankind in South Africa

Homo sapiens might have ousted a few neandertals via natural competition, but no other humans.

Europeans deliberately ousted (killed, poisoned, diseased, starved, cheated) the First Peoples. Who, by the way, are still alive and being screwed over. Repeatedly.

There's a bit of a difference.

[powerplant]

Homo sapiens might have ousted a few neandertals via natural competition, but no other humans.

Europeans deliberately ousted (killed, poisoned, diseased, starved, cheated) the First Peoples. Who, by the way, are still alive and being screwed over. Repeatedly.

There's a bit of a difference.

True however this never surprised me, humans have done the same wherever they go to the native people (with the natives fighting back in variety of creative ways (such as Ntive American scalping), as far as I can see there are more examples of conflict between two radically different cultures then them simply getting along. The Europeans won as they were better equipped imo.

I wonder if any people around today feel guilt for what the conquistadors did in South America (to use one example) and feel responsible for it.

However this deviates from the initial point of the thread somewhat.

[plotthickens]

True however this never surprised me, humans have done the same wherever they go to the native people, as far as I can see there are more examples of conflict between two radically different cultures then them simply getting along. The Europeans won as they were better equipped imo.

Guns, Germs and Steel. Still doesn't make it right.


I wonder if any people around today feel guilt for what the conquistadors did in South America (to use one example) and feel responsible for it.

However this deviates from the initial point of the thread somewhat.

Not really. The OP is pushing to get illegal immigrants thrown out of the US, as long as we don't talk about the original illegal acts. The fact is that these hard-and-fast rules about who is good enough to stay and who is bad enough to need to be kicked out is another dress for racism. Honey we all need to be a little more understanding because nobody is so far from the abyss that they can stare into it and not be seen.

Which is why the OP and all the others arguing about the dress' length are ignoring me -- they're dressing their prejudice up so that nobody has to realize that The Dance is evil. That's what all the media-noise about immigration is about. Stop going to the fucking dance, you media morons, it doesn't matter where your hemline is. It's still wrong, and you're still paying to attend so you're condoning it.

[CanrHoldLimes]

You guys are being ridiculous with the whole Native American thing. Look they fought, they were conquered, they lost.
We all know this is coming from a "white guilt" perspective, but look at it this way.

In the Caribbean, there are nations now established owned by minorities(in terms of U.S perspective), there were Indian tribes that lived there, should those people who were taken there through slavery give up their nations and go back to Africa?

Things have changed, learn to adapt. Illegal immigration is NOT the same as colonial expansion however many centuries ago, that's just how the world used to work.

[powerplant]

Guns, Germs and Steel. Still doesn't make it right.


Not really. The OP is pushing to get illegal immigrants thrown out of the US, as long as we don't talk about the original illegal acts. The fact is that these hard-and-fast rules about who is good enough to stay and who is bad enough to need to be kicked out is another dress for racism. Honey we all need to be a little more understanding because nobody is so far from the abyss that they can stare into it and not be seen.

Which is why the OP and all the others arguing about the dress' length are ignoring me -- they're dressing their prejudice up so that nobody has to realize that The Dance is evil. That's what all the media-noise about immigration is about. Stop going to the fucking dance, you media morons, it doesn't matter where your hemline is. It's still wrong, and you're still paying to attend so you're condoning it.


Of course, going around killing people because they are new and different is a cultural or any other way is not right and I would hope humanity has moved on enough for that not to happen again. I place great emphasis the hope bit here.

Of course understanding is a good idea but I still don't see how simply allowing anyone to settle anywhere in whatever numbers they wish can always be a good thing. It leads to overpopulation and if you grant amnesty to it them what is the point of the the laws in the first place?

Granted there are benefits to migration but can you imagine large numbers moving to an area it will place great stress on services in that area, a point I made earlier on.

In cases like this I like to apply common sense:

Should we have completely open borders? No.

Should we take in refugees? Yes.

Should we give amnesty to illegal immigrants? No, unless there are extenuating circumstances as to what those are is different for each person. I also realise up to this point I have not yet mentioned this.

Should we encourage immigration through the proper channels so the recipient nation and the nation from where the worker is coming from benefits as well as the individual moving? Absolutely, this ensures that the best result can be obtained whist the country where the worker originally comes from does not experience significant decreases in numbers of its workforce.


The last point would be in an ideal world, something we do not have. Although people are free to disagree with me and criticise.

[plotthickens]

The last point would be in an ideal world, something we do not have. Although people are free to disagree with me and criticise.

I understand what you're saying. It's very reasonable. But you're throwing it from inside a glass house.

[babsa]

Ah, the old "dismissive" ploy.

Lol, what do you expect when you merely bring up a topic and do not elaborate?


If we're talking about deporting people who are here illegally, people who are here now as adults who were brought here as small children and don't even remember their supposed country-of-origin or have any link to it certainly does have an impact on this discussion.

I know what news article you are talking about, as i am sure we are both thinking of the same thing. If they do not have a country of origin than i'd venture to guess it would be appropriate for them to be able to become a citizen. The fact that they were legal residents prior to the discover should easily grant leniency.


Or is there something in our law these days that believes the child should be blamed for the sins of the parents? If so, I had missed that change.

Why do you consider it punishment for a child to be deported to his/her parents' country of origin? Do you think that our country should take in all the poor children of the world?


I'm certainly not saying we should open the door of legal immigration to anyone whose parents can manage to smuggle them into this country as a 17-year old and keep them here for year.


I agree.


But the idea that we should deport people who are far more culturally American than they are connected to the culture of their parents strikes me as absurd. We should be able to find some sensible path to citizenship that isn't just a free pass.

I am sure there could be a sensible solution, but any solution escapes me, other than deportation that is. What it boils down to, is that people think that someone is entitled to live somewhere if they illegally lived there for X amount of time. This is no longer the colonial days, where people run around and lay claim to land. People hearken back to these days and think that land is land, regardless of imaginary borders - it is simply delusional and somewhat anarchistic of them.



At least I've seen the argument before that we should just open the borders because the earlier waves of Europeans came here with no immigration requirements. I don't give the argument any serious consideration though, since we're hardly living in the 1600s.

But it seems like you understand the differences between hundreds of years of development.

Thank you! I was wondering if this would ever be touched. All or none -- if you want to deport all the illegals, OP... you first.

Do you usually completely disregard clauses in the constitution?

It was a hypothetical situation, meant to convey a point, which you have, so far, virtually ignored. No surprise here. You're not the first collectivist, and not the last.

Because it was not a valid point, so you really shouldn't be surprised.


Right. Border Patrol and ICE agents are only armed with candy canes and fruit rollups, and they always cart people off with their permission. Uh huh. "Emotional diatribe" indeed.


Border Patrol is part of homeland security. I don't understand why someone who crosses our border illegally would need to give their permission. Apparently you have trouble understanding that they have no right to enter our country without permission.


Do you not understand what "homestead" (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) means in my the context of my discussion? It means to "claim and settle". So yes, if someone was in my house without permission, which I either bought from someone who homesteaded it, or homesteaded it myself, I would be pissed. But why cart someone off from foreign territory which no one has homesteaded?

Foreign territory? Like Guam or Puerto Rico? I don't see how this pertains to the discussion.


And with my tax dollars, which are not given up voluntarily?
You don't care. Fine. But I do...because people like you demand that I pay for it.

Are you claiming that taxation is against your constitutional rights? Please elaborate.


I'll chalk this up to the failure of whoever schooled you. I was not referring to the voting itself as violence, but voting as a lousy excuse for butting into actions that are none of your business.

So you say one thing, but you don't really mean it? Why? Do you realize it makes your stance look weak when you have to constantly revise what your silly metaphors mean?


So a man wants to build a cabin in the middle of the Chihuaha Desert, hypothetically-speaking, which no one has ever appropriated before; how exactly is he depriving you of anything by this mere act, and why does mere voting consistute as a reasonable justification to get involved?

So you consider this land free game to do whatever a person wants? Part of the Chihuahuan Desert is under United States' jurisdiction. Unless you are speaking of the other part of the Chihuahuan Desert that is part of Mexico? Your use of the word appropriated conveys that you understand that he IS taking something that is not his, in this case, land. Is it the fact that the land is not actively being used that has you think this way about it?


After all, is it not apparent that majority-rule can justify just about anything against the individual? Hence, "gang violence"; it is merely a group who agree together to induce violence against someone, preferably smaller groups.

No, not just about anything, but nice try. Everyone has rights, but if they break the law, they are dealt with accordingly. Inherent human rights do not trump established law, if you are on U.S. soil, you are subject to these laws.


Because the government says so. I've heard all this before. Meanwhile, the government continues to forbid people from working in this country without its permission. That most certainly constitutes as determining who should work and in what industry; it's just a negative one-size-fits-all approach. Unions must love it.

From ENTERING this country without it's permission, there is a difference.



Disregard whatever you want. I'll let the other readers in the forum determine whether it's hypocritical to ban immigration on the bounds of "screening" when plenty of Americans exist in this country who were never screened in the first place.

You mean... when they were born? -_-


Translation: Everyone must prove themselves both innocent and safe (whatever arbitrary threshold the latter may be) in order to cross certain lands

Uh yes. This is how every border in the world works. Welcome to the world.


lest they be kidnapped and sent elsewhere. Nevermind whether the lands in questions are remote from civilization, or whether it's terroristic to threaten otherwise peaceful people with deportation...just because an organized body of people decreed it.

To hell with "no harm, no foul", eh?


LOL kidnapped. If someone does anything to break the law and is arrested, you call it kidnapping? Or perhaps your rationale only applies to illegally entering a country.


You can wash your hands after touching an illegal immigrant, if that makes you feel better.


I don't plan on touching one, it just isnt kosher.


One is ignorance. The other is a breach of property rights of the worst kind. I find it funny that you'll compare it to murder. I wonder what you'll say about about people who don't know math (like many Americans I know!)

Apparently you have trouble understanding basic logic.


Never said that they had to deal with immigrants. Merely to leave them alone and respect their enterprise, as they leave others alone with theirs. Apparently, that's difficult for you to understand.

If they want to be left alone they can stay in their own country.


Putting aside the naivete of how governments work, there are whole swaths of land in the United States that have no people, let alone public roads and utilities. You must be blind not to see the parallel between preventing someone from exploring these regions, and forbidding people from exploring the regions of space. Simply incredible.

Apparently you don't understand that this isn't the wild frontier in the colonial days.

[envirodude]

...They do not understand that we want them to be Americans, and they dont feel they can survive in an American world. This is why Hispanics tend to create neighborhoods. They want to be separate. I think it's a lot more complicated than that. Most people are quite tolerant of multicultural neighbourhoods. However, macro (community) outcomes do not reflect micro (personal) preferences.

They have an absolutely astonishing level of racist hatred for blacks I have found the same thing. Also, a racist prejudice against aboriginal americans.

They believe in very strick classes, and those barriers are not to be crossed. They seem to be completely unaware that Americans of any class can interact with each other. Agreed.

The most clear solution is to show them the way, try and interact with them more closely, share values, and treat them as equals. This country has developed a nasty habit of allowing citizens to shit all over other citizens. We dehumanize other people in our minds, even those of the same race and social status, and we use it to justify treating them poorly for our own short term gain. Then others do the same to us, and it screws everyone. Peer pressure is the answer to this, make people feel like certain behavior will brand them as trash, and they will avoid that behavior.You are an optimist! But I hope you are correct.

Maybe you should take an English class. This sentence is badly written. No, it's fine. Criticise Al for being a racist firebrand if you like, not for poor English.

[curiousgeorge01]

Seems like the only real issue is the immigrants taking advantage of hospitals/Medicaid. But that's not their fault, that's our systems fault.

[themuzicman]

Sometimes this topic comes up around here and there seems to be many here in favor of leaving them alone. What do you think? Americans I work with complain about them not learning to speak English and not teaching their children English so their children take up extra teacher time in public schools because the teacher has to teach English to them instead of math or whatever to the class. Then there is their tendency to take low paying jobs which qualifies them for government assistance such as Medicaid and even if they are uninsured they can get 'free' healthcare at the hospitals. This translates to regular Americans having to pay more or the medical places closing for lack of funding. Then there is the economy. Americans are out of work. Employers love hiring illegal immigrants because they are cheaper and they tend to work harder than Americans. Please help fill in the picture where I left blank spots, ie Americans aren't having enough live births to make a tax base to pay for the baby boomers to retire.

How should illegal immigrants be deal with?

Let's seal the border, first. Then start sending them home.

[Austerenight]

I live so close to the US/Mexico border that our highway signs are written in kilometers and not miles. In Arizona, immigration is a big deal for politicians. Recently, they've developed legislation that promotes racial profiling in law enforcement and ethnic discrimination in our public school system.

Its all pretty ridiculous. If I break the law, I expect that at some point I will pay the consequences. I don't understand why people are so gung-ho about protecting illegal immigrants. A crime is a crime is a crime - Trying to tell people that its okay for them to be here illegally because the conditions are bad in their country (which is what most people say who are in support of this) doesn't justify breaking the law to be here. If people are so concerned about this, then they should change the law or create new ones that fit the situation more accurately.

That being said, I also think its a shame that so many US citizens of Hispanic origin in my area are subject to profiling, and have had their rights infringed upon in embarrassing ways in the pursuit of those who are here illegally.

[Paul Siraisi]

Deport.

Or, for every Mexican that comes over illegally, annex 2 acres of Mexico and s/he can have amnesty.

[Moxiie]

Let's call this debate what it really is GET RID OF MEXICANS AND OTHER BROWN IMMIGRANTS.

We didn't have this "debate" when Ireland was emptying...there were still massive waves of European and Russian immigrants coming into America well into the 1900's. This is about Latin American countries.

I note that no one has mentioned closing or fencing the Canadian American border..oh wait, Canada isn't a brown country who speaks a different language than xenophobic redneck church goin' 'mericans - most of whom have never met and sat and had a meal or discussion with an "illegally" immigrated family.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Subgenius]

Let's call this debate what it really is GET RID OF MEXICANS AND OTHER BROWN IMMIGRANTS.

We didn't have this "debate" when Ireland was emptying...there were still massive waves of European and Russian immigrants coming into America well into the 1900's. This is about Latin American countries.

I note that no one has mentioned closing or fencing the Canadian American border..oh wait, Canada isn't a brown country who speaks a different language than xenophobic redneck church goin' 'mericans - most of whom have never met and sat and had a meal or discussion with an "illegally" immigrated family.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ah, have you tried to get over the northern border lately? It sucks.

Why do I doubt you have sat down with an illegal immigrant for a meal or discussion, let alone a family? You sound kind of kneejerk.

[Moxiie]

Ah, have you tried to get over the northern border lately? It sucks.

Why do I doubt you have sat down with an illegal immigrant for a meal or discussion, let alone a family? You sound kind of kneejerk.

I live in WA and have dual citizenship in Canada as a First Nations tribal member, I have no problems going over the border through the J Treaty.

Actually, I have sat with an "illegal" immigrant family and shared a meal, multiple times (food was delicious!) and talked with them about immigration, albeit awkwardly through a translator. It was illuminating.

And yes, you're absolutely correct, complete kneejerk reaction to xenophobia - it reeks of hypocrisy and lack of intelligence or rational thought.

[Tito]

How should illegal immigrants be deal with?
They should be deported. Its not fair to those that went through the hassle of doing everything by the book, which is a tedious, time-consuming and expensive task; to see others who took the easier route gain the same benefits. If anything, such action would encourage even more illegal immigration and that has the potential of seriously undermining the authority of law enforcers, IMO.

Another thing we should look into is the morality of the person. Do we really want people that disregard the law and are willing to do anything for money or do we want people that want progress but also value honesty, doing what's right because its the right thing to do, law-abiding, etc?

[Nonsuch]

Homo sapiens might have ousted a few neandertals via natural competition, but no other humans.

Europeans deliberately ousted (killed, poisoned, diseased, starved, cheated) the First Peoples. Who, by the way, are still alive and being screwed over. Repeatedly.

There's a bit of a difference.

Generally speaking, European nations managed to colonize and eventually take over lands which already had native peoples living on them because the native peoples were not civilized. They were ignorant of some of the fundamental principles of a civilized society and this was a decisive disadvantage. It also led Europeans to conclude that such native peoples were not their equals and thus did not deserve to be treated as such.

Here are some of the differences:

1) Native peoples were not organized into nations, they were generally a bunch of independent tribes. With no central representation, representatives from Europe had great difficulty in negotiating comprehensive agreements since they could not deal on a nation-to-nation basis. From the European standpoint, what was wrong with colonizing an area if no nation already existed there ?

2) Native peoples were illiterate. Hard to have a written treaty and observe it when one party can neither read or write.

3) The concept of land ownership was unknown to native peoples. Hard to buy land from someone who does not recognize that this is possible. Hard to negotiate mining rights to a piece of land when the other party believes that natural resources cannot be owned.

4) There was a decisive technological gap between the Europeans and native americans. For example, Europeans built ships which sailed across oceans while native americans built canoes. And so on.

There were other things like European greed and religion which were also contributing factors. Also, Cortez actually did overthrow a civilized native american nation (the Aztecs) as far as I can tell.

Later, native peoples did acquire literacy and did try to organize into larger political units, but by then European attitudes were already set and new nations had already been established in the Americas.

[Subgenius]

I live in WA and have dual citizenship in Canada as a First Nations tribal member, I have no problems going over the border through the J Treaty.

Actually, I have sat with an "illegal" immigrant family and shared a meal, multiple times (food was delicious!) and talked with them about immigration, albeit awkwardly through a translator. It was illuminating.

And yes, you're absolutely correct, complete kneejerk reaction to xenophobia - it reeks of hypocrisy and lack of intelligence or rational thought.

Yeah, I'm a stereotypical Scandinavian American and I get screwed every time I cross with searches/time wastage of searches of other folks/missing flights because customs can't deal with a line/etc, and it's the same thing for my buddy coming from Winnipeg to visit me. For something as easy as you are making it out to be, it's a lot less porous then my experiences with crossing the southern border.

[MechanicalSun]

Yeah deport all of them, fresh, 1st generation, 2nd , 3rd 4th, 5th, etc ...

[Cooper]

Yeah, I'm a stereotypical Scandinavian American and I get screwed every time I cross with searches/time wastage of searches of other folks/missing flights because customs can't deal with a line/etc, and it's the same thing for my buddy coming from Winnipeg to visit me. For something as easy as you are making it out to be, it's a lot less porous then my experiences with crossing the southern border.


Maybe its just the way you look....all suspicious and whatnot?

[Tito]

Yeah deport all of them, fresh, 1st generation, 2nd , 3rd 4th, 5th, etc ...
In the United States, only an immigrant can be an illegal. Any generation born in the country, even from illegals, are fully fledged Americans and as such, can't be deported anywhere since they are in their constitutionally recognized country.