INTJ and INFJ differences

[toonia]

It seems worth exploring the similarities and distinctions between INTJs and their closest MBTI cousins. INFJs are often misrepresented as primarily feeling types when this is not the case. They are iNtuitive dominants like the INTJ.

I do think that some male INFJs test as INTJs because of cultural norms related to gender expression of emotion. I also believe the reverse is true. Because of this, only the most extreme male F's are likely to identify with the INFJ label. The reverse could be true of women. INTJ-INFJs are look-a-likes because they share the dominant function, both tend to be motivated to be high achievers, and both actually have a strong, inward sensitivity.

The types that share a dominant Sensing or iNtuitive function will especially look similar, since it is the S and N that cause the most distinction between types. They will also be most easily confused between the two genders since it is the F and T that create the distinction and the gender roles are culturally prescribed. These would include
1. INFJ-INTJ Ni
2. ISFJ-ISTJ Si
3. ENTP, ENFP Ne
4. ESTP, ESFP Se

[thegnat]

Hmm I have a couple thoughts on this:

1) cultural influences probably have *some* degree of influence on personality but not all.

Like let's just take INTJ women expressing themselves as INFJs because of society saying you should be emotional and touchy feely
and all that stuff. that person has to have to an extent...faked that F at some point in her life or in certain social situations. But it's fake. And she knows it. And it's uncomfortable and not preferred.

There's only so much you can fake consistently. And if you're answering these personality tests honestly and true to what you *truly* prefer and not necessarily your "fake" personality that's more accepted in society, then you're still typed as an INTJ.

Personally I'm shitty at faking. I'm pretty strongly INTJ which does differ me from mainstream women quite a bit. And I just don't bother faking. I'm kind of stubborn that way. And I honestly don't give a damn if people think I'm weird. I embrace my weirdness. I would think it wouldn't be fun being a cookie cutter female. But that's just me.


2) Societal norms are here for a reason. Most likely overall personalities of men were x way and overall personalities of women were y way.
An F guy or T female will most likely chose one or the other of the following:
a) Stay true to myself and deviate from the norm or

b)try to change personalities to fit in (humans are social animals - it's understandable if this is tried) which can either result in

i) succeeding and fitting in(and becoming that other personality -they really aren't F or T respectively anymore so you really can't say they're mistyped. They're accurately typed. Just changed from before) or

ii) realizing they can't change their personality and staying true to themselves and not minding they're outcast or what not. Though the F guy might be a little more sensitive to that, he'll probably accept it. The T female will be like awesome! I'm different! I don't give a shit what others think of me!

At least that's my opinion...

[toonia]

I should note (and can dig up quotes as needed from the literature), that INFJs are the emotionally coolest, most distant, most abstract thinkers of the NFs. They are not feeling dominant and not all that touchy-feely by comparison. They get misread a great deal because they don't offer many external cues because they are too focused on taking in information from the outside world. They also tend to accept and give criticism more than the other NFs. The external Feeling aspect tends to relate to a heightened awareness of emotional cues in the external world, rather than expressing traditional gestures of feeling.

The degree of E and I also impact the degree of emotional communication. Consider the following scale

ENTJ.................INTJ..................INFJ... ................ENFJ
(Te-Ni-Se-Fi)....(Ni-Te-Fi-Se)......(Ni-Fe-Ti-Se)......(Fe-Ni-Se-Ti)

[thegnat]

If you're saying that NFs are similar to us in emotional distance too, personally, then why should societal norms affect their personality so much?

[toonia]

If you're saying that NFs are similar to us in emotional distance too, personally, then why should societal norms affect their personality so much?

I'm not certain what you mean here. Societal norms will affect people in general to some degree - some types more than others. Part of these norms involve gender roles relating to what is expected in their emotional communication (i.e. men are not supposed to cry, etc). I'm closer to asking a question than making a declaration as to what extent these norms influence the testing and reading of types. I can't say if social norms affect types greatly or slightly, just that it is an element worth considering.

My hypothesis is that there is gray area between types that share a dominant N or S function. This gray area is in the complex interplay of T vs. F being overlaid with societal gender norms. Certainly there are clear examples for both types within both genders (women who are clearly INTJ, and men who are clearly INFJ, etc). It is this gray area that is often misunderstood, but could shed a great deal of light on true nature of both types if correctly understood.

[thegnat]

I think they probably affect them slightly - and that is impossible to measure - but I think it has more so to do with the individual.

I guess I'm unsure of what you're asking.

[mind_wander]

Before entering this website, I was more intrigue about the INTJ-INFJ true compatiblity. Check it out: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. There is alot of reading too.

Also, welcome toonia. If you felt like crying its ok, perfectly understandable. At least there is some on/off faults when to stop and start. Actually, on another website da-forums there is 2 INFJ's mostly males. However, I have to say out of the 16 personality traits. The no.1 rarist INFJ, so in here you are always welcome for sure. But, the only difference I see is that INTJ's don't like to flex the F side alot. On the other hand, INFJ's does make us feel accepted.

[toonia]

Before entering this website, I was more intrigue about the INTJ-INFJ true compatiblity. Check it out: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. There is alot of reading too.
What they describe as an immature INFJ on that link, comparing the death of a loved one to their dead goldfish, is not an immature INFJ, but a complete dolt. Seriously, no one with any intuition or Fe could come up with something that insensitive to say. The immature INFJ is more likely to not say anything, but come up with some type of theory about how the person is feeling loss. It is Fi, not Fe, that uses personal experience as the primary point of reference in understanding others. Fe is open to the external environment and more adaptable to the meaning of emotion in the present.

The immature INFJ hasn't taken in enough data in their Ni to be able to create a nuanced subjective system in their mind. They have some sense of being able to read people and will trust in it too much, making too many assumptions of being correct. Sometimes they will be right, but the more you doubt yourself, the more accurate you are likely to be in making assessments. Yes that is a paradox, but Ni is all about reconciling paradox.

Also, welcome toonia. If you felt like crying its ok, perfectly understandable. At least there is some on/off faults when to stop and start. Actually, on another website da-forums there is 2 INFJ's mostly males. However, I have to say out of the 16 personality traits. The no.1 rarist INFJ, so in here you are always welcome for sure. But, the only difference I see is that INTJ's don't like to flex the F side alot. On the other hand, INFJ's does make us feel accepted.
Thanks for the welcome. Thanks for the permission to express emotion. While I can feel strongly, it's typically held in check and analyzed and second guessed. The feelings that really matter to me are not expressed unless it serves a purpose. I'm pretty tough. :thumbsup: One reason I do consider myself an INFJ is because i typically have command over my feelings as the result of many years of analyzing and experiencing. I'm also fascinated by subjective systems such as people's emotions. I consider it a failure when my emotions get away from me without a reason or a purpose.

[mind_wander]

Put it this way, I managed to help out an Austrilian guy with another Asian female. This is mostly due to cultural difference. I can solve it; I had to sort it out in my mind the guy is very sober live online and the emotional side is *very high. So I give the true facts, about the realistic goals, the if's, buts, what's, etc. etc. Ok step 1, get rid of all those negative Asian stereotypes; you want to gain her attention, reduce that emotional side with logic. Step no.2, know what is she looking for and know the true Asian social norms without having a messup relationship. In the end, listening about 1hr or so, yeah in a emotionally setting, I never for a doubt[be mature about this] say this guy is a wimp. Just a misunderstanding of the Western/Eastern cultural differences. In the end, they are very happy. Sux, that I helped one out, still I don't got a GF. If I can help someone out like that, I would. Does that mean my F side is kicking in? Probably.

Nice for you to explore more about your INFJness and thread, I am very intrigue about it too. Here is some music videos: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. This should suit you very well, sorry about the language. Music is a natural language.

As for those INTJ's: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. who are in here, wondering what our counterparts, the rarest personality: INFJ's is like:
Female INFJ: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Male INFJ's: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

When the male INFJ was speaking, I pay attention to the mannerisms/speech patterns is very easy to pin point for me. When there is a big stop, "I kinda figured out ASAP, what word he trying to say."

As for the female INFJ, the animal stuff, man is one of my faults because I am a canivore. However, I do eat veggies, so those INFJ will not annoy me at all.

Also did you check out To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

P.S If you felt like man darn it, my emotions are running at high gear and have no clue where to put that darn thing, just send it to my pm. My guess your the only INFJ, so my PM box will not be full. If I can take it like a man, for an hour like in this situation; then no problem. If you dog or cat died, or soemthing, etc. I promise will not lash out at you. Since, I am still considered your counter-balance.


Enjoy, its my pleasure leading you toward the right direction. Next in line....

[Jezebel]

Off topic replies have been moved to This Thread

[deicruxified]

Before entering this website, I was more intrigue about the INTJ-INFJ true compatiblity.
my favorite prof is an infj

[vulcan]

Toonia, hello from ***********!

Are these signs of INFJ:

I am always aware of other people/curious about what they are thinking about me, but try to hide that awareness by looking down, having a cold face, and avoiding eye contact.

I always hold the door open, pick up the tab, do the chores, etc for other people. (Fe?)

I generally hate conflict, but can be competitive at times (sports, contests, etc).

----

Can't think of any more at the moment. I've thought about being an INFJ a few times now, but I usually end up at INFJorINFP.com and I match up with INFPs on that site 8 times out of 10 examples. And then, of course, I usually can't identify with INFPs.

[mind_wander]

Well, all those listed sounded more like INTJ because my female INTJ neighbor said the same exact thing. So would that be considered INFJ. Not really, we like to avoid big messes, in the end who cleans it up, probably us. However, INFJ would help assist you in other ways to keep your mental/emotional sides in peace.

So lets ask Professor Toonia, apparently is an INFJ.

[INTJoe]

From my little understanding, the INFJ's are like "activists", who seem to care about the environment, people, pets, and living things in general, etc. I may be wrong.

As an INTJ, I care more about the idea of "humankind", yet am not as concerned with pleasing people on a one-by-one basis to get there. I care a great deal about people, the environment, and pets, but just don't show it outwardly. I'd spend my energy thinking of ways to make things better for those listed, as opposed to going out and getting "my hands dirty", so to speak.

I mean, I really can't relate to activists, per se. I wouldn't call them whackjobs like some do, but it's just not me. I'd rather not "waste" my time.

I care more about satisfying an idea as opposed to people. Perhaps F's satisfy people in an attempt to have a greater idea satisfied, from the ground up (grass-roots campaign) whereas T's satisfy the idea first and hope that people understand and realize, as it trickles down to them.

[mind_wander]

True, basically we give them the list, the INFJ go and do them; must relate to those areas.

[Jennywocky]

I don't think that INFJ and INTJ women are that similar.

There seems to be two extremes of INFJ women -- the highly analytical idiosyncratic type (which seems to be Ni+Ti), and the type that very much looks like ISFJ and focuses on their Fe.

It is the former sort of INFJ woman that has the most in common with an INTJ woman, but they're different due to the differences in Ti versus Te (and because the Ti is the tertiary in the INFJ woman, and thus is more of a "backup" function that for whatever reason allows them to remain introverted rather than engaging on a warmer and more potentially confrontational Fe level).

The INFJ woman with inclination for Ti seems much analytical and will approach things in a detached, abstracted sort of way... the sort of detachment normally seen in INTP but using Ni to fuel it rather than Ne, so it seems even more detached from the tangible observable world.

The INTJ woman seems more pragmatic and anchored in the outer world. Thoughts are attached to tangible things, and there is an impatience with seemingly pointless analysis (i.e., thought aimed at merely describing something, rather than implementing something). She seems to have more in common with ExTJ than with INFJ.

Both types are very perceptive and able to follow each other easily, they just prioritize things differently.

(Note: please do not take any of this as criticism, because it is not meant that way, but simply descriptive.)

[TeleportThis]

I agree with you Mimsical.

When I read It seems worth exploring the similarities and distinctions between INTJs and their closest MBTI cousins. INFJs...

an immediate flag went up. My mother is an INFJ and we never got along very well at all. This was mostly due to her not understanding my sense of humor and taking my sarcastic comments seriously. I would say something that I found very clever and she would say something along the lines of "Why do you have to be soooo mean?" It was exhausting. She also expected me to respect her simply because she was my mother. I don't care who you are or if you are "above" me in social status. My respect has to be earned. She would always get on my case for not smiling and "looking mad" all the time.

These three key differences caused a huge clashing of personalities. I'd say I'm much closer to an INTP and was actually typed as one when I was younger.

[Jennywocky]

My mother is an INFJ and we never got along very well at all. This was mostly due to her not understanding my sense of humor and taking my sarcastic comments seriously. I would say something that I found very clever and she would say something along the lines of "Why do you have to be soooo mean?" It was exhausting...

I have definitely seen this from a few INFJs on *****/*****, while the INTx types are "playing" (this is from the INFJs who more routinely work through their Fe).

There is a clash between "being nice" and "having fun," with the INFJs seeming to criticize an exchange where the supposed "victim" was having as much fun as the "perpetrator." The rules of civility are being broken, so the exchange is labeled as "unkind" -- but the reality of the situation regardless of the rules seems to show that no one is taking it badly and in fact everyone is enjoying themselves.

[toonia]

I don't think that INFJ and INTJ women are that similar.

There seems to be two extremes of INFJ women -- the highly analytical idiosyncratic type (which seems to be Ni+Ti), and the type that very much looks like ISFJ and focuses on their Fe.
It is my hypothesis that this second category of women are in fact ISFJs and not INFJs at all. The INFJ who has a strong focus on Fe is going to look like an ENFJ, not an ISFJ.

The INFJ is one of the most abstract types. The ISFJ is feelingful and very concrete. If the person is feelingful and not abstract, they are not an INFJ. The online tests don't always distinguish the S and N effectively imo. I would even venture to bet that for every ten people claiming to be INFJs, >5 are ISFJs. Si is the dominant function for the ISFJ and is completely absent in the INFJ. The two only look similar in a very surface view.

This is one important aspect of the point of this thread. The actual INFJ is remarkably closer to the INTJ in their thinking than they are to the ISFJ with whom they are more often confused. If you view it from inside the INFJ mind, it is difficult to miss because the two could scarcely be more diametrically opposed.

I have wondered how an IXFJ looks in terms of functions. Is their dominant function half Ni and Si? What would that be like I wonder. I guess I especially wonder because I basically have zero Si, which can be a little frustrating being so abstract and untied to the concrete world.
INFJ Ni Fe Ti Se
ISFJ Si Fe Ti Ne

[mind_wander]

I got a question Toonia, what are INFj's into? Yeah, I am a carnavior; but I do eat veggies/meats, so hope that give a mental balance. It can help me easily identify, so next time; I don't enter my own pandora's box of deep emotional feelings. The INTJ, the unknown deep feelings pit.

[mind_wander]

Looking back on the MBTI, I'd managed to scored 2x as INTJ, however in 2005, when I had not clue what kind of career to prosue. So I take MBTI career related test and it came out INFJ; I was kinda surprised, after looking at it now. So on a positive notes that means, I can dealt with INFJ's/INTJ's very well :) Since previously I was an INFJ, but not stable.

[toonia]

I got a question Toonia, what are INFj's into? Yeah, I am a carnavior; but I do eat veggies/meats, so hope that give a mental balance. It can help me easily identify, so next time; I don't enter my own pandora's box of deep emotional feelings. The INTJ, the unknown deep feelings pit.
Some info from typelogic.com

"...overall, INFJs can be exceptionally difficult to pigeonhole by their career paths. Perhaps the best example of this occurs in the technical fields. Many INFJs perceive themselves at a disadvantage when dealing with the mystique and formality of "hard logic", and in academic terms this may cause a tendency to gravitate towards the liberal arts rather than the sciences. However, the significant minority of INFJs who do pursue studies and careers in the latter areas tend to be as successful as their T counterparts, as it is *iNtuition* -- the dominant function for the INFJ type -- which governs the ability to understand abstract theory and implement it creatively.

In their own way, INFJs are just as much "systems builders" as are INTJs; the difference lies in that most INFJ "systems" are founded on human beings and human values, rather than information and technology. Their systems may for these reasons be conceptually "blurrier" than analogous NT ones, harder to measure in strict numerical terms, and easier to take for granted -- yet it is these same underlying reasons which make the resulting contributions to society so vital and profound."

[mind_wander]

Now I remembered in 2005, why I was an INFJ in 2005, because I was into those listed things.

[Jennywocky]

It is my hypothesis that this second category of women are in fact ISFJs and not INFJs at all. The INFJ who has a strong focus on Fe is going to look like an ENFJ, not an ISFJ.

The INFJ is one of the most abstract types. The ISFJ is feelingful and very concrete. If the person is feelingful and not abstract, they are not an INFJ. The online tests don't always distinguish the S and N effectively imo. I would even venture to bet that for every ten people claiming to be INFJs, >5 are ISFJs. Si is the dominant function for the ISFJ and is completely absent in the INFJ. The two only look similar in a very surface view.

This is really an interesting take on things, I will have to think more about it. My concern is that the INFJ's I know who you would call closet ISFJs really do not mesh with ISFJ well, both in how they see themselves AND when I read their posts and compare their insights/perspective to what i typically read from true ISFJs.

But it definitely demands a closer look!

This is one important aspect of the point of this thread. The actual INFJ is remarkably closer to the INTJ in their thinking than they are to the ISFJ with whom they are more often confused.

This is reminiscent of a thread Bluewing started on ***** today, about how INFP and INTP are akin as well. (Still reading that one.)

I have wondered how an IXFJ looks in terms of functions. Is their dominant function half Ni and Si? What would that be like I wonder. I guess I especially wonder because I basically have zero Si, which can be a little frustrating being so abstract and untied to the concrete world.

How does that play out? How do you experience being Ni rather than Si?
Si is my tertiary; my "body sense" is not very good (ie.., I ignore my body signals), but I have a real penchant for making things consistent with the map I've built, connecting past to present, and demanding that my theories conform to the map I have of reality. (i.e., it has GOT to be connected, for me, or the theory is pointless).

[toonia]

This is reminiscent of a thread Bluewing started on ***** today, about how INFP and INTP are akin as well. (Still reading that one.)It is important to note a compelling difference
INTP - Ti Ne Si Fe
INFP - Fi Ne Si Te

They do not share a dominant function.

INTJ Ni Te Fi Se
INFJ Ni Fe Ti Se

The INTJ and INFJ are more closely related.


How does that play out? How do you experience being Ni rather than Si?
Si is my tertiary; my "body sense" is not very good (ie.., I ignore my body signals), but I have a real penchant for making things consistent with the map I've built, connecting past to present, and demanding that my theories conform to the map I have of reality. (i.e., it has GOT to be connected, for me, or the theory is pointless).
ISFJs are often placed in much too narrow a category. Some can have wonderful sense of whimsy that can look like an NF, but their whimsy is played off of how people 'ought' to be. Si is an internalized sense of the concrete world. To be Si dominant means you have a strong inner sense of how things should play out in the concrete world. Si dominants will be very good with schedules, remembering details, appropriate behavior, being diligent, loyal. Combine this with Fe and you have people who are strongly motivated for community harmony, making sure individuals feel good, sometimes at great cost to self.

The differences between Si and Ni dominant are so profound that it is difficult to put into words. When I have more time I will attempt it because it is an important distinction. Interestingly ISFJs share all the exact functions as INTPs, but in a different order. I have wondered if the INTP fascination with INFJs is actually with ISFJs without realizing it.
INTP - Ti Ne Si Fe
ISFJ - Si Fe Ti Ne

[GOD]

In theory the J/P is the least important as we place strength on the characters from left to right.

So, the INTJ is most similar to the INTP and that’s what has been borne out on this site with most INTJ's thinking they are next closest to INTP. (In fact it was my P that was sledged into conformity of thought process by college/university).

Sure, a lot of women to succeed in the employment world might have to upgrade their F to a T. But that doesn't mean they are more similar to INTJ's, just that they are becoming more NT.

[toonia]

If you could statistically provide evidence that showed that INTJ's and INFJ's paired up then I might be more persuaded. But the INTJ would have to be the male, as I seriously don't think a T woman is going to settle for a mushy F male.
I'm not talking about pairing up at all. Being similar wouldn't necessarily be an indicator of successful romantic pairs anyway. The only point here is to refer to similarities of internal thought processes. It's about looking beyond the external behavioral stereotypes (which are often misunderstood and woefully distorted through anecdotal assumptions). INFJs get stereotyped in all sorts of uninformed ways. They are often seen as feelingful and concrete. There is information to suggest quite the contrary for those interested. If one is willing to let go of the stereotypes, there could be room for insight. I'm going to take an intuitive leap here ;) and suggest that the majority of people here (and elsewhere) are not aware of what INFJ thought processes look like. It would be interesting to discover the assumptions before debating the (dis)similarities. Comparing functions is the easiest first step because anecdotal information is bound to be distorted through false assumptions.

So, the INTJ is most similar to the INTP and that’s what has been borne out on this site with most INTJ's thinking they are next closest to INTP. (In fact it was my P that was sledged into conformity of thought process by college/university).
The INTJ is not similar to the INTP in terms of functions, which refer to internal thought processing. Every function is the exact opposite and somewhat rearranged. Externally there may be more similarities, but that is not a point of key interest here because it is not as useful in comparing the similarities specifically between the INTJ and INFJ. There are of course, compelling ways in which INTJ and INTP correlate, but that is a discussion for the other thread.

INTJ Ni Te Fi Se
INTP Ti Ne Si Fe

In a similar way INFJs and INFPs are very dissimilar even though they often share values. This becomes apparent when thought processes are compared in deeper discussions. Both the INTP and the INFP do not use Ni. Doesn't it seem reasonable to consider that this requires a type of negotiation that wouldn't be an issue between types that share a dominant function? Of course there are also differences in internal processing between INTJ and INFJ or they would be the same personality, but the similarities are significant and easily overlooked when focusing on external, concrete behaviors. The similarities have to do with a willingness to examine a concept from multiple angles, inclusion of all data before dismissal, ability to make intuitive leaps, reconciling of paradox, self-detachment, and a focus on rigorous, comprehensive analysis.

Relying too much on the four surface letters while ignoring the underlying functions can lead to a great many misunderstandings about this personality system. Yet that is how many, if not most, people approach it.

[GOD]

Hmm.. I think you *might* have some evidence if you can show that women are somehow impacted to a significant amount by hormonal influences that make them more "feeling" rather than "thinking".
(I think this is the difference, it’s the way I see it... some 80%+ of women have the F).

Otherwise, the F is a different brain pattern.

There's a vast difference between feeling (Which is group and environment orientated) and thinking which is potentially unbounded in its perspective.

Lets be honest, F is a biological trait that makes the woman attach to the male to ensure survival of her offspring. The need for reaffirmation of "love" is just a test to ensure he returns home with the kill and she won't be defenseless against other males in the tribe. Humankind spans a very long time... the current environment is just the last couple of hundred years maximum. Trait types are mostly genetic.

So, if the F is "group focused/related" then its going to be far less developed than what can be achieved by the T.

Don't agree that INTJ is vastly different to the INTP, in fact in my case it’s about 4 questions answered differently. To me the INTP is just the disorganized INTJ (Although the INTJ knows that disorganization of thoughts in multi scenarios can be the root of innovation).

An INTJ male can emphasize with a female INFJ if he thinks F is just a function of her emotional state. Maybe she could morph into an INTJ. My mother was incredibly emotional and she tested INTJ like my father.

The F could be similar to the T just as much as the P could be to the J... why? Well, the MBTI makes no allowance for variability. Nobody is fixed, so what’s the ability to be variable?

In the following paragraph...

Toonia In a similar way INFJs and INFPs are very dissimilar even though they often share values. This becomes apparent when thought processes are compared in deeper discussions. Both the INTP and the INFP do not use Ni. Doesn't it seem reasonable to consider that this requires a type of negotiation that wouldn't be an issue between types that share a dominant function? Of course there are also differences in internal processing between INTJ and INFJ or they would be the same personality, but the similarities are significant and easily overlooked when focusing on external, concrete behaviors. The similarities have to do with a willingness to examine a concept from multiple angles, inclusion of all data before dismissal, ability to make intuitive leaps, reconciling of paradox, self-detachment, and a focus on rigorous, comprehensive analysis.

I believe you actually admit that MBTI has to be patched to make it work. So, are the rationals similar or not? And just why are they grouped together?
quoted original author for easier readability

[toonia]

I understand the Feeling function to be valuative, while the Thinking function is objective. All brains are wired for emotion, and more aspects emotion may tend to be filtered through the subjective value based processing of F. However, I am sure that "Feeling" as it is used in MBTI and Jung's theories is not about emotions per se. I can dig up the references, but am too tired tonight.

That is the key difference between INFJ and INTJ. While both use Ni processing, the INTJ prefers to work in objective, measured systems, while the INFJ tends to prefer subjective, approximate systems. It is the content moreso than the manner of processing that makes the difference.

It is interesting that while the ENTJ, INTP, and ISTJ are all closely related by letter names, of the four closest cousins, it is only the INFJ that shares the dominant function. Understanding the similarities and distinctions between these two types is an ideal path towards understanding how Ni really works. I believe it is Kiersey who says it is the iNtuition and Sensing functions that cause the greatest distinction between types - not the differences in F and T or even I and E.

[mind_wander]

Now, I remembered 2 years ago, I was INFJ. But during that time, I was not emotional [I am a guy]. So here is the question: What is the real INFJ thought process?

[athenian200]

Toonia? I didn't know you posted here. Hi.

Anyway, I presume the primary differences between an INTJ and INFJ would be that an INTJ would have a stronger need to display competence due to their NT nature. Also, I think they would be less comfortable expressing emotions, and would be less able/willing to pretend to agree with something to keep the peace.

I think the best way to determine if you're an INFJ or INTJ is whether you use more Ti/Fe, or Fi/Te. I have my own little theory about how those functions work together (although I admit it's a little far-fetched).


Te and Fi both consider the existence of a thing in itself to be a truth, and subjugate expression to existence. Te sees things that actually exist in an external reality, data. Fi sees things that actually exist in an internal reality, emotions. They create rules, but only based on their observations of what exists.

Fe and Ti both consider rules aspects of reality, and subjugate reality and expression to rules. Ti tries to use rules (logic) to define/predict internally what exists (or should exist) in external reality, data. Fe tries to use rules (etiquette) to define/predict externally what exists (or should exist) in internal reality, emotions.

Therefore, Te and Fi are in fact similar processes engaged in reverse, as are Fe and Ti. This is why you always see those processes together in the initial four functions.

Ti/Fe -- Creates rules by which to describe/model reality.
Fi/Te -- Creates rules which are determined by reality.

[iamnotspock]

Toonia, I think you are on to something here.

I am not an expert on the systems but my own experience is that I turn into an INFJ in some circumstances.

For example, I doubt INTJ's write much poetry or do much abstract expressionist type of artwork. I used to do that a lot. Also, women find me very touchy-feely and sentimental IF I am opening up that side to them (only the ones that I like). It seems that I use the T for business, finance, and professional development. And save the F for artistic and emotional stuff.

Anyway, nobody comes to a test without any cultural norms established. So those always play a role. But ultimately I doubt that anybody can be pinned down as exactly one type over time. Circumstances, context, biochemsitry, etc. all influence how we function.

What I really want to know is if INFJ and INTJ are a good match for relationships.

[mind_wander]

lol, cut to the main point. Thats a very good question, its said INFJ's/INTJ's are the golden couples or are they?

[Fecal McAngry]

It seems worth exploring the similarities and distinctions between INTJs and their closest MBTI cousins.
I'd consider ENTJs closer bedfellows; Yes, both INJs are dominant Ni types, but NTJs are not only the same temprement but also share the same function/attitude pairs (Te, Ni, Fi, Se, etc.)...

I suspect the degree of kinship one feels for these neighbors depends on strength of preferences; I usually feel closer to ISFPs than to extremely extroverted ENFPs, but closer to modestly extroverted ENFPs than to ISFPs, in general.

[Fecal McAngry]

If you're saying that NFs are similar to us in emotional distance too, personally, then why should societal norms affect their personality so much? *

This tends to be an Fi/Fe thang more than anything else. ENFJ Paul McCartney was once asked what the big difference was between himself and INFP John Lennon. "John doesn't care what other people think of him. I do" came the reply (paraphrase). Of course, a dominant Fi-er like John is still going to care considerably more than your average INTJ, who not only shares this preference for Fi, but is considerably and more selectively F-driven overall...

[Fecal McAngry]

Lets be honest, F is a biological trait that makes the woman attach to the male to ensure survival of her offspring. The need for reaffirmation of "love" is just a test to ensure he returns home with the kill and she won't be defenseless against other males in the tribe

I love it when you INTJs get all mushy on me ;D

[OneBadMother]

I know two INFJs. One is my best friend's girlfriend. She's generally withdrawn, though has her silly moments. I don't know her very well, but my friend (INFP) seems to like her just fine. They're both fairly passionate people, and it's probably a good idea for two passionate people to be in a relationship together.

The other one I got to know over the summer over the web. He is extremely talkative and, when he lets me talk, ignores what I say unless I said something he agrees with anyways. I was initially more enthusiastic about our exchanges, because I thought he was another somewhat peculiar person who liked to speculate on ideas and plots. He has an explosive temper and has these rigid constructs of what he expects of the future and other people, dismissing any ideas that go along with those constructs with the verbal version of a hand-wave. He is also the sort who would be hurt if he was told that his ideas weren't awesome. INTJs may share these qualities, but they make less of an effort to conceal them and aren't nearly as clingy. It's difficult to shake this guy off, because he has me on a pedestal and thinks that our glaring differences make us compatible. It makes me feel trapped, but apparently he has very few other people to talk to.

[mind_wander]

Maybe you wave the white flag, hey how about a new, but nice INTJ to talk too. Pass the ball [the problem toward someone else], sort of speak, lol. Its that that hard, just alittle more thinking, lol. Did you know that INTJ's are really cool? For example, I checked out this thread and wow INTJ's are so amusing, smart, don't mind expressing themselves. Here is a link.........

[inquisitive]

Hi everyone, thought I would give you an inside tour of my brain in answer to these posts.

As I am introverted, and less inclined to be expressive, I find it very difficult to use my Fe the way I am meant to and I tend to use my Ti along with my Ni so I can stay quite introverted. When I meet someone who I can relate to, (usually another NF or an NT) then I am slightly more extraverted. I normally use my Fe as my final line for making a decision, how I feel about the decision is a deciding factor and outweighs the factual information.

Although, I am very analytical and go through the pros and cons and cause and effect of everything. I analyse people, situations and just about everything I experience. I love to talk about abstract concepts and ideas, I will get an idea into my head and then spend ages researching it on the internet and in books to find out all the information I can. I love to read books and have (note the feeling statement) a burning desire to learn, improve and grow. I have to know 'why' and 'how' and will spend time wondering about the most abstract questions which if I voice them out loud, brings the strangest looks from those I know. Inside my head is like the niagra falls, with all sorts of conversations, questions and ideas buzzing around in there. My favourite topics are psychology (because it involves people - Fe I guess), philosophy and cool science stuff - because it's fascinating.

Because Fe is my auxillary, I feel a very strong drive to connect to others and share things with them, normally ideas and concepts. But I am drawn to find a soulmate and mindmate to be close to and can feel quite lost and depressed if I do not have someone I can share a connection with. As I don't use my Fe as much as I should, it can come back and bite me, which results in my being extremely touchy/feely and passionate about things or people, causes etc and I feel quite out of control. I feel that I do not control my emotions and that they are in control of me, although I do try to suppress them as my emotions are intense with no happy medium.

I need to have a purpose and definite plan of where to go in life or I feel lost and get frustrated. But what I do has to have meaning, and I am driven to make a difference in the world, to help people grow and become the best that they can be. Having a conversation where I can learn something and grow or being able to help someone else grow, is a real high for me and I get very excited and passionate in such a situation, by passionate I mean intense or enthusiastic etc. I love intellectual discussions but also when I am stressed or in a crisis or someone invokes strong emotions in me, I resort to intellectulizing things (is that a word, it seems wrong).

I can't think of anything else right now, but hope that makes sense and can be logically understood.

[Motor Jax]

i love these types of discussions... i just know, personally, that i get along very well with the INTJ type...

[Ejay]

I can tell you that it is a curse at times because it is very hard to shut your mind down. I have to be pushing myself to the point of risking life and limb to just stop thinking about random things. When I ride my dirt bike fast I can focus at the task at hand. And put all my energy at riding fast. When I am done I feel relaxed and refreshed. Then I start analising how well I rode. And it all starts over again lol. I also play guitar and when I jam I can move myself into my music and forget about the outside world. Most of my best songs just came out thru playing. I also have had to learn how to accept others points of view in an argument but I think that comes with age and self reflection. I hated myself for years because of my environment. I would let others beat the shit outta me because I did not want to fight back. Now I will fight back and I have no problem letting you know that I am not afraid anymore. That's where anger get's me. I am afraid of my very strong temper and if people knew what I was thinking when I am angry with them they would never make me angry. I can be as sensitive as they come but I can also tear you apart if needed. At 36 I have learned how to control my anger but it still get angry at times. I am human. I just wonder if I live in a world of humans or a bunch of ignorant clones... And for the record I just made that up and I am gonna use that as my new signature. LOL

[44sunsets]

I do think that some male INFJs test as INTJs because of cultural norms related to gender expression of emotion. I also believe the reverse is true. Because of this, only the most extreme male F's are likely to identify with the INFJ label. The reverse could be true of women. INTJ-INFJs are look-a-likes because they share the dominant function, both tend to be motivated to be high achievers, and both actually have a strong, inward sensitivity.


INTJs and INFJs are very similar in some ways, and completely different in other ways. All in all, I think if you have an accurate sense of people, it's usually easy to tell the difference between an INFJ and an INTJ.

I doubt most INFJ men would ever test as INTJs in a rigorous personality test. In real life, yes, some people who only know them on a superficial level might incorrectly see them as being INTJs. I think most people who I interact with on a day-to-day working level would mistakenly peg me as an INTJ, because they never get to see me in a situation where my INFJ strengths would come to the surface.

With INTJ women, I've never come across any who are likely to test as INFJs -- there is a definite "hard edge" kind of vibe to INTJ women, which makes them stand out from the crowd and easy to spot.

It's difficult to "type" somebody via online interaction alone. If you get to look at both their online and real-life personalities though, it's usually very easy.

INTJs and INFJs share the dominant function (introverted iNtuition) and inferior function (extraverted Sensing). Everything else is completely different, and that makes a big difference to how they process the world.

[jikin]

This thread was resurrected at an appropriate time for me. Something had been gnawing at the back of my mind for awhile about testing as an INTJ. While I can relate on many levels, something just never seemed quite right about it. 44sunsets just mentioned INTJ women having a hard edged vibe, I can see that in my best friend, but it is very laking in me. After much thought for the last couple of days I've come to realize that I've been lying to myself about how strong my T function was and that my F is actually dominant.

I can say that once I'd taken time to look at the INFJ profile it fit me much better. I still find it interesting as to how much of the INTJ profile fits, though. There really are quite a few common points.

[femmebleu]

INFJ Artist

I am an artist who teaches the science of painting beginning with da Vinci. It seems only in art schools and some few art history classes is the science of art taught. I suppose the one dictum that covers it all is Sullivan the architect who said "Form Follows Function." It grieves me that 99% of the viewing public continues to believe that are comes strictly from the emotional and intuitive sources.

[Nikita]

From my little understanding, the INFJ's are like "activists", who seem to care about the environment, people, pets, and living things in general, etc. I may be wrong.

As an INTJ, I care more about the idea of "humankind", yet am not as concerned with pleasing people on a one-by-one basis to get there. I care a great deal about people, the environment, and pets, but just don't show it outwardly. I'd spend my energy thinking of ways to make things better for those listed, as opposed to going out and getting "my hands dirty", so to speak.

I mean, I really can't relate to activists, per se. I wouldn't call them whackjobs like some do, but it's just not me. I'd rather not "waste" my time.

I don't know what type I am, but the idea of simply thinking and never doing anything to make the world better drives me crazy and wastes my time. One of my problems now is that I can't see a way to take action to do what I'd like to do, but I feel driven to do something. As fun as it is to think and theorize, if I only think of an innovation or that I can do something, without ever trying to do it or enact that change, I feel shallow and castrated.