Who is the victim of the crime in organ brokering?

[notoppings]

An impoverished person is desperate for money. A person with means is desperate for a liver or kidney or bone marrow.

It is a crime for a person to broker the organ exchange for cash.

Who is the victim of the crime?

I placed this thread here because this is a question about law, although I'm sure it may drift into ethics. But my original question is to stimulate a discussion on the victim in this crime. If both parties come to a mutually satisfying contract where does the victim come into play?

[enWTFp]

The victim is the human nature. Some laws aim also to prevent the developing of more complicated crimes in the future. Allowing this business officially, may increase the number of cases when people are forced to participate in it, against their free will.

I'm only giving an explanation how the establishment might reason, but I do not support such type of protection of the human nature. I believe a person should still be free to use their body, their health, and even their life (euthanasia) as they wish, when there exists serious supporting legal procedure, for example, mental health confirmation.


Nice casus, notoppings.

[notoppings]

Well put. I can see human nature. So in essence this is a victimless crime, it is designed to protect mankind from potential abuse. We as humans should never be allowed to decide the disposition of our own bodies.

[Fridays Child]

The problem arises not when it is an agreement between two willing parties, but when some clever clogs discovers that there is money to be made in duping the gullible or stealing from the helpless. As seems to be happening in some places already. That's where you'll find your victims.

Seems logical: my body, my right to dispose of bits of it for profit or otherwise. But what of those taken advantage of?

[Flamethrower]

If both parties come to a mutually satisfying contract where does the victim come into play?

This is an excellent question. Same applies to the question of wanting to end your own life. I agree with everyone else so far, you should be allowed to decide what you want to do with your own body but unfortunately I guess laws like this are an attempt to prevent people from abusing each other because they will in some cases. It's a shame for the people who wouldn't though.

Another consideration is that donating organs is not a decision to be taken lightly. Making it legal to get money for an organ could cause some people who are financially stressed to make a poor decision to do this which they may regret later. It has to be a decision you make for the right reasons.

[Purple]

The problem arises not when it is an agreement between two willing parties, but when some clever clogs discovers that there is money to be made in duping the gullible or stealing from the helpless. As seems to be happening in some places already. That's where you'll find your victims.

Seems logical: my body, my right to dispose of bits of it for profit or otherwise. But what of those taken advantage of?

Do you think it is possible that more people will get taken advantage of with this being outlawed? My thinking is that outlawing this creates a black market situation which drives up the cost of the goods making it more likely the predators will be out there preying on the victiums.

[notoppings]

I agree with Purple on this.

Several other points. People are given cash for plasma. People with "O" type blood are given stipends for their time.

Researchers sell cells, marrow, genes, and several other body parts.

So I take it it is only illegal for the original owner of a body part to sell it, but a doctor is able to procure for free and then sell at a profit.

Also maybe big drug companies are partly responsible for this. If a drug company makes hundreds of millions of dollars selling anti rejection medication because of imperfect matches (anything less then a 12 out of 12) why would they support a data base of near or perfect matches, they would have less medication to sell and a longer prognosis for the patient, meaning the insurance companies would stop paying for the drugs.

By making brokering legal it would stop a lot of the black market deals and enforce contracts. Black markets exist now and payments are promised and then withheld or donors are injured or die with no recourse.

So again who is the victim in organ brokering? There are plenty of potential victims but no actual victim. Except those who are currently making money.

[Karamazov]

By making brokering legal it would stop a lot of the black market deals and enforce contracts. Black markets exist now and payments are promised and then withheld or donors are injured or die with no recourse.


I've been reading up on this particular racket and it would seem that would solve much of the underlying problems but what's stopping it from being legalized? I'd like to know.

[notoppings]

From what I read it is mostly religious fundamentalist.

[Karamazov]

Figures.

Pertaining to your post, I think the two individuals are victims of the process as a whole. They are, in a sense, mutually benefiting but they are driven to such extremes; one person must give over a piece of themselves in exchange for something artificial, with the other gaining something needed to sustain his/her self for money. Both need it to survive.

[Flamethrower]

Also maybe big drug companies are partly responsible for this. If a drug company makes hundreds of millions of dollars selling anti rejection medication because of imperfect matches (anything less then a 12 out of 12) why would they support a data base of near or perfect matches, they would have less medication to sell and a longer prognosis for the patient, meaning the insurance companies would stop paying for the drugs.

I believe you have to take anti rejection drugs for the rest of your life anyway regardless of whether there is a perfect match or not.

[notoppings]

I believe you have to take anti rejection drugs for the rest of your life anyway regardless of whether there is a perfect match or not.

This is true but with a near perfect match instead of up to a hundred pills a day (30 or more 4 times a day ) you end up taking far fewer depending on the match as little as 12 pills (3 pills 4 times a day) and none of the poisons that make you sick in order for you to keep the organ.

[Flamethrower]

This is true but with a near perfect match instead of up to a hundred pills a day (30 or more 4 times a day ) you end up taking far fewer depending on the match as little as 12 pills (3 pills 4 times a day) and none of the poisons that make you sick in order for you to keep the organ.

So if the drug companies want to sell more drugs they have to prevent people finding near perfect matches? Is that what you are saying?

BTW I don't trust drug companies at all so I am not defending them. I've been doing some research into this recently though.

[Undead Bonzi]

I would agree with others that the purpose of the law is to prevent greater abuses/problems further down the road. It is not unthinkable in my mind to envison organ farms in the poorer and more unsupervised countries if their were a legalized organ sales trade. Such laws also might be considered an attempt to make sure everyone gets equal medical treatment. If the organ business involved money the only ones getting transplants would be the rich. Money would also bring into effect a value judgement on who is the most deserving/why which leads to the question of who decides who is deserving/why which leads to mobs screaming for blood because the system is 'unfair'. As it is now the system is fairly impartial based on urgency, sucess ratio, and time line. I just see too many issues possible in our lawyer happy society for legalized organ sales to work.

[notoppings]

So if the drug companies want to sell more drugs they have to prevent people finding near perfect matches? Is that what you are saying?

BTW I don't trust drug companies at all so I am not defending them. I've been doing some research into this recently though.

Thats pretty much what I am suggesting.

I would agree with others that the purpose of the law is to prevent greater abuses/problems further down the road. It is not unthinkable in my mind to envison organ farms in the poorer and more unsupervised countries if their were a legalized organ sales trade. Such laws also might be considered an attempt to make sure everyone gets equal medical treatment. If the organ business involved money the only ones getting transplants would be the rich. Money would also bring into effect a value judgement on who is the most deserving/why which leads to the question of who decides who is deserving/why which leads to mobs screaming for blood because the system is 'unfair'. As it is now the system is fairly impartial based on urgency, sucess ratio, and time line. I just see too many issues possible in our lawyer happy society for legalized organ sales to work.

As it is now most people don't even get on the list as worthy recipients because they don't meet certain standards set by a medical review board. Based on their guidelines. A father who is 55 would not receive a organ if there was a person who is 25 waiting, now I would think the father values his life as much as the 25 year old but although both of them will most likely reject the organ in a few years the younger one gets the organ so the transplant team can have higher success stats.

I'm not saying throw out the donor program, I'm suggesting that if organs could be purchased those who wouldn't normally get a chance at an organ could have a life too. Just think if you have a lung disorder then instead of placing yourself on th list you seek out a perfect match and have one lung transplanted then both the donor benefits and the recipient benefits, the ling will eventually grow enough to support both bodies.

Not to mention those people who are dying and are survived by a loved one who now has to pay the staggering medical bills, if they were offered the option of selling health organs, they could offset those bills and help countless others, heart livers, corneas marrow, skin you name it.

Also think of the money that most states have to budget for dialysis for their welfare medicare patients everyone could live without a portion of their liver, a small operation a few anti rejection drugs and no more costly dialysis and the person could even return to work, I see so many benefits and I do see a few chances for abuse but overall with the right watchdogs in place they would probably be less then they are now.

[Undead Bonzi]

But then you still have the question...who watches the watchers. It opens an endless cycle.

As to your point about the 25 vs 55, my thoughts are this. There are a limited number of organs that match the those who need them. Should not the likely success of the operation be the most important factor rather than money? By your reasoning the 55 year old, if he had more money, would be more likely to recieve one of the limited organs even though his chances of success would be far less than the 25 year olds. I can't see that as the best use of such a limited resource. Of course the counter argument can be made that making the trade profitable would increase the number of organs available.

In the end put yourself in the shoes of one in need of an organ. Would you prefer the current fairly logical and impartial system or one where you have to try and outbid a habitual smoker 90 year old oil baron for a chance to get that needed lung? I don't know about you, but I don't have delusions of ever being rich enough to afford that sort of rare item.

[orderandlaw]

I think it may have more to do with unwilling "donors" ... you make it allowable to sell organs ... and ... knowing the scum we have in this world, there will be many more people donating organs by kidnapping and murder just for organ harvesting.

[SirJac]

I think it may have more to do with unwilling "donors" ... you make it allowable to sell organs ... and ... knowing the scum we have in this world, there will be many more people donating organs by kidnapping and murder just for organ harvesting.

Why stop at kidnapping or murder? Why not set up a farm? How much could you sell the organs of a 7yo for? Probably alot more then it costs to feed them for 7 years.

If there is big money to be made, people will do it.

[Flamethrower]

I think it may have more to do with unwilling "donors" ... you make it allowable to sell organs ... and ... knowing the scum we have in this world, there will be many more people donating organs by kidnapping and murder just for organ harvesting.

Well why does it have to be "allowable" for kidnappings and murder to happen? If you are the type to get into kidnapping and murder surely you are not going to wait for it to be allowable. I am sure there must be weird stuff like this going on already.

[SirJac]

There is, but the market for them is small and disconnected. Legaization would result in a large international market place for organs, and thus would also increase organ related crimes. It's only the difficulty of finding buyers and sellers through the black market that keeps it relatively in check.