Parent Report Cards

[JustMel]

I have mixed feelings about this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). My kids aren't affected because we're not in the same school districts that are implementing this should it pass the House. If we were we'd probably not have an issue with it since we do all of the things it's for anyway. Our kids are at school on time, they get good grades, we're at every event and every requested conference and request them ourselves if needed. We are in constant contact with teachers and on a first name basis with all their principals. However, I realize we're not the norm, at least according to the principals and teachers we know.

On one side I see the need to get parents that aren't involved more involved in their children's education. Every year at parent teacher conferences one of the complaints from teachers is that the kids that aren't doing well are the ones whose parents aren't showing up for conferences or anything else school related. That underscores the whole point of the "report card". To get parents involved that otherwise wouldn't be but I think the strain it will inevitably put on law enforcement and jails is reason enough to not pass it. They can't even keep up with the parents who have their kids in the wrong school districts.

On the other side, parents are the ones raising the children and have the right, if they choose, to be uninvolved.

[Warrior]

I have mixed feelings about these things as well. If this is wildly successful, how will the teachers manage it? We're very involved with our kids school. We visit the class, meet with the principle and teachers, exchange emails several times a week with teachers, etc. I guess we are too involved because we have trouble getting timely responses to email and my wife has apparently been at the school so much lately that she was asked to leave yesterday. If most parents get that involved, how is that going to be handled if the school can't deal a smaller number of active parents now?

On the other hand, I do think parents being involved is an important part of education. Encouraging that is great, but it isn't really a secret. I'm not sure this is going to do anything for parents that don't want to be involved now (for whatever reason).

[Polymath20]

Finally the state taking a stance and creating a method to call out inept parents? Finally!

1) I don't like it because it's big, totalitarian government.
2) Grading bad parents will do nothing but aggravate them. They'll still be bad parents.
3) There will probably be unintended consequences and ramifications.

[Arcanist]

So not only are people forced to support a terrible and mind-raping public school system through taxation, they'll be graded if they don't adhere to some arbitrary standard? Oh, the hubris of these people. It'll eventually be their undoing.

[EdR]

This thread is the first time that I have encountered the concept of a Parents Report Card.
That inspired a quick goggle search and I came across a report about a legislative proposal in Florida for such a card.

My immediate gut reaction agrees with Polymath, but I'm going to do some more research.

My opinion on academic success in El-Hi is that it is the resultant of multiple influences: student, teachers, parents, economic situation, motivation, environment and I don't know how many other factors. Another component of my thoughts is that back in my day (50's and 60's), it was pretty much sink or swim with the only major external force being the threat of parental reprisal for substandard results. I also strongly hold the position that the average HS graduate back then was much more capable in Reading, Riting and Rithmatic than most of today's HS graduates.

[Undead Bonzi]

People who are bad parents are not going to care if they get a bad report card. They are bad parents because they don't care.

[Fujimoto]

...back in my day (50's and 60's), it was pretty much sink or swim with the only major external force being the threat of parental reprisal for substandard results. I also strongly hold the position that the average HS graduate back then was much more capable in Reading, Riting and Rithmatic than most of today's HS graduates.

I'm willing to bet that was because parents actually cared about how well their kids did, AND the kids knew there would be consequences for poor work.

Today's parents expect that teachers will do all the work for them, when in fact teachers have very little authority.

[Eridal]

This is just one of those "great" in concept but terrible in practice ideas.

The thought of grading parents and either shaming them into or penalizing them enough into being a good parent is simply not going to work on the worst offenders and will likely only marginally affect the rest. All this will do is further the fight between parents and teachers, which is already bad enough in most schools, and will place an even larger burden on teachers and administrators which are in recent years doing more with even less personnel already.

And that's not even getting into the moral aspects of this debate which involve how much should the government be involved in citizens personal lives, and what is best for children, and who gets to decide that the state or the parents?

[PRBori]

unrealistic. As a parent, I do the best I can to stay ahead with my little ones schools, but granted, my work is almost 1.5 hrs away from home back and forth and is very demanding so I do depend on the after-care program to ensure that she does her homework before I get home. If the aftercare fails to help her with the homework, I get mad, if I'm paying hundreds of dollars a week for someone to care for her until I'm able to get home, I expect them to at the minimum help her with the homework (not projects, I enjoy the projects at home). When I get home is a bit late, have to start dinner so we can eat around 8pm, 9pm the latest. My little one is to come home and read at least one book of her teachers online site. Does that count? Doesn't seem like it as I doubt the teacher takes the time to see that my little one is actually completing 1 book per night. All in all I barely spend time with my little one because of my schedule, except on the weekends, although the past few weekends I had to work. :(

As for school activities, I get involved when I can, but that's not feasible all the time. This is a lot harder for single parents to do because there is only one income in place, so I can see this impacting single parents the hardest and I do not agree with it. Single parents already have a lot on their plate to add more into it. Hell, if this was implemented around the country I might seriously consider moving on to another country.

In any event, I don't think is a good idea. I believe that parents have a number of issue to deal with already to have to put up with more. Where I am a parent can get fined and put in jail if the child is absent and/or tardy for more than specific time. I don't agree with it either, but that's the law. I do wonder however how that would differ from home-schooling your own child. Not that I plan to, but I am curious. :)

[Autumnleaf]

I guess this way teachers don't have to be held accountable for their failure to do their job.

[PRBori]

I guess this way teachers don't have to be held accountable for their failure to do their job.

funny you mention that, I got a letter from the school telling me that my little ones teacher didn't meet the "Child Left Behind" regulations as she didn't meet the certification. In any event, I don't have any issues with the teacher, but is was quite interesting to receive the letter after I have lended a number of items for second grade kids to use, which she didn't use at all as I kept asking my little one if they used them, so I ended up getting them all back.

[WeAreAllKosh]

I saw the thread title and immediately thought of Calvin informing his dad about his Dad poll numbers. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[Subgenius]

Well, Devil's advocate here. Memphis is a complete shithole for education. If you're in a city school there, you're pretty fucked. This actually might be helpful.

[Autumnleaf]

funny you mention that, I got a letter from the school telling me that my little ones teacher didn't meet the "Child Left Behind" regulations as she didn't meet the certification. In any event, I don't have any issues with the teacher, but is was quite interesting to receive the letter after I have lended a number of items for second grade kids to use, which she didn't use at all as I kept asking my little one if they used them, so I ended up getting them all back.

That is just it. Teachers do everything within their power to avoid being graded on their performance. The no child left behind policy grades them on their students performance on standardized tests, they hate it. And they want to give me a report card. I hope they try. All they need is to motivate me or guys like me and I won't stop until they are graded and face repercussions for deficiencies in their performance.

[Eridal]

Well, Devil's advocate here. Memphis is a complete shithole for education. If you're in a city school there, you're pretty fucked. This actually might be helpful.

The question then becomes will this be effective? Are there better ways which achieve similar results without adding even more of a burden on teachers and administrators? And what are the unintended consequences which will result from a law such as this one?

[Subgenius]

Eh, who knows. It's black schools in the most segregated town in the US. There are a ton of factors contributing to the problems there that really have nothing to do with parents or kids. It's sad.

[phoboser]

"not enforceable", "waste of time"... she's just another grandstanding politician who capitalizes on society's denial of race differences in intelligence.

Sure, it would be nice if poor, minority single mothers took an interest in their children's education--or better yet, that their baby daddies did--but a bill that forces encourages? gold-stars? these women to keep their children in school doesn't address the fact that they don't care. It would just make school more miserable for those children who like education. Let them drop out.

[Subgenius]

Let them drop out.

Ah yes, and just cement Memphis at the number 1 position of most murders in the country by the huge influx of street kids joining gangs because there really isn't much else to do in innercity memphis than become another cog in the American drug/illegal weapon trade's transportation hub. GG. At least you'll be able to bitch about blacks more when that happens.

[ummon]

I wish parents would get more involved in their kid's education. But this bill is ridiculous.

[Arcanist]

I wish parents would get more involved in their kid's education. But this bill is ridiculous.

Why? They're forced to pay for an overpriced service. Placing your child in a public school means you've given up any sort of responsibility. The state has them now, and they will be thoroughly indoctrinated. That's all they need, right? I can't believe people consent to this crap.

[Mogura]

Funny. The very parents that need report cards to otherwise encourage them to fulfill their parental duties really shouldn't be having children in the first place.

"I wanted to because babies are cute..."

[Arcanist]

Funny. The very parents that need report cards to otherwise encourage them to fulfill their parental duties really shouldn't be having children in the first place.

"I wanted to because babies are cute..."

Yeah, they shouldn't. But when you subsidize breeders, what do you expect?

[Subgenius]

Why? They're forced to pay for an overpriced service. Placing your child in a public school means you've given up any sort of responsibility. The state has them now, and they will be thoroughly indoctrinated. That's all they need, right? I can't believe people consent to this crap.

Actually, there is a vast difference between the public school systems withing Shelby County(Memphis and some surrounding areas), and since TN doesn't have an income tax and quite a bit lower state taxes on just everything in comparison to other regions of the country, no one is really being forced to pay for much. And with some of the corruption that TN is famous for, it's arguable how much cash actually gets to any of the schools it's intended for. This causes the schools to have problems actually getting federal money because schools don't spend enough to gain access to federal funds.

County schools are caucasian in majority and probably comparable to a lot of northern private schools(if my experience in MN and IL is any indication). The city schools, overwhelmingly black, on the other hand are a mess. I believe there are still schools with asbestos in them there. They don't ever start on time in the summer because a lot of city schools don't have functioning air conditioning. Test scores have been shit there since way before No child left behind and it's precursors. It's pretty sad. Not much has changed in the city since the civil rights movement even started. Memphis(and TN) politics are super corrupt and only keep these schools in the crapper. Memphis's reputation as national and international shipping hub also carries over to illicit materials too, so unfortunately violence in Memphis is rather high due to conflicting interests.

And it's hard to say what effect the growing latino population is having on the schools because the studies really haven't had loads of time for definitive answers, due to the latino influx really only taking place in a little over 12-13 years. From the 80-90s censuses, TN actually had negative latino population growth from 35kish(i think) to 33-32k, but around 1998-2000 the population over 100k legal(with who knows how many illegal), and it's been rising ever since.

You name some sappy educational fad that's been used in the last 40 years, and it's tried and died in Memphis. I don't see how this could hurt.

[True Rune]

Why? They're forced to pay for an overpriced service. Placing your child in a public school means you've given up any sort of responsibility. The state has them now, and they will be thoroughly indoctrinated. That's all they need, right? I can't believe people consent to this crap.

I think that's the least of these parent's worries, especially the bad ones.

[Mogura]

Yeah, they shouldn't. But when you subsidize breeders, what do you expect?
Californication?

[JustMel]

Well, Devil's advocate here. Memphis is a complete shithole for education. If you're in a city school there, you're pretty fucked. This actually might be helpful.

This is true which is why my kids don't go to Memphis City Schools. If they had to go to Memphis City Schools I'd spend the $850 a month to send them both to private school.

That is just it. Teachers do everything within their power to avoid being graded on their performance. The no child left behind policy grades them on their students performance on standardized tests, they hate it. And they want to give me a report card. I hope they try. All they need is to motivate me or guys like me and I won't stop until they are graded and face repercussions for deficiencies in their performance.

Not true everywhere. Memphis City School issues started with former Mayor Herenton being the Superintendent and not squashing the thug problem in the beginning by sticking his head in the sand and saying "not my problem". Then he became Mayor and was disgraced, resigning before the Feds were done with their investigation so that if he were indicted he would not lose his pension from the City of Memphis. Now that Wharton is in there things are getting better slowly.

The question then becomes will this be effective? Are there better ways which achieve similar results without adding even more of a burden on teachers and administrators? And what are the unintended consequences which will result from a law such as this one?

Probably. Until scores come up and they get more federal aid to get better teachers and administrators. A lot of good teachers went across the MS line to teach in DeSoto County Schools which are the best in the state. (DeSoto County is a bedroom community of Memphis being just across the line)

Eh, who knows. It's black schools in the most segregated town in the US. There are a ton of factors contributing to the problems there that really have nothing to do with parents or kids. It's sad.

The biggest issues are the kids that are in the inner city schools not the county, that's true but it's not just blacks in those areas. Memphis is getting a huge population of immigrants which has an entirely different set of issues. Living here I've noticed the "white flight" progression into North MS, followed by the blacks wanting out of the shit hole, followed by mostly hispanic immigrants. The gangs here aren't just black anymore.

Ah yes, and just cement Memphis at the number 1 position of most murders in the country by the huge influx of street kids joining gangs because there really isn't much else to do in innercity memphis than become another cog in the American drug/illegal weapon trade's transportation hub. GG. At least you'll be able to bitch about blacks more when that happens.

It's not just Memphis. The reason so many drugs and guns go through Memphis is due to it being a straight shot on I-55 from the coast to Chicago and then onto Detroit.

Actually, there is a vast difference between the public school systems withing Shelby County(Memphis and some surrounding areas), and since TN doesn't have an income tax and quite a bit lower state taxes on just everything in comparison to other regions of the country, no one is really being forced to pay for much.

Wrong. Most of the Memphis people come across the line to north MS to buy most of their goods including groceries because the tax rate is 2% lower. They're getting benefits in TN but spending the money in MS.

And with some of the corruption that TN is famous for, it's arguable how much cash actually gets to any of the schools it's intended for. This causes the schools to have problems actually getting federal money because schools don't spend enough to gain access to federal funds.

This is true. Supposedly the TN lottery has donated billions to education but you can't tell it if you drive past a lot of the inner city schools.

County schools are caucasian in majority and probably comparable to a lot of northern private schools

Wrong. Even the county schools are not comparable with private schools anywhere. They're trying but they're not quite there yet. Some of the smaller schools in bedroom communities are getting better scores but they have an average class size of 20 not 35.

The city schools, overwhelmingly black, on the other hand are a mess. I believe there are still schools with asbestos in them there. They don't ever start on time in the summer because a lot of city schools don't have functioning air conditioning. Test scores have been shit there since way before No child left behind and it's precursors. It's pretty sad. Not much has changed in the city since the civil rights movement even started. Memphis(and TN) politics are super corrupt and only keep these schools in the crapper. Memphis's reputation as national and international shipping hub also carries over to illicit materials too, so unfortunately violence in Memphis is rather high due to conflicting interests.

However, that was the premise behind getting the county Mayor A.C. Wharton out of the county and into the city as mayor. He's done well with the county so they're hoping he can do the same with the city. Memphis has a lot of generational welfare people. Grandma was on it, mama was on it so I'll be on it too is the mentality we see a lot when dealing with kids in Memphis. The politics are slowly changing but it will take decades to dig Memphis out of the hole it's in now.

And it's hard to say what effect the growing latino population is having on the schools because the studies really haven't had loads of time for definitive answers, due to the latino influx really only taking place in a little over 12-13 years. From the 80-90s censuses, TN actually had negative latino population growth from 35kish(i think) to 33-32k, but around 1998-2000 the population over 100k legal(with who knows how many illegal), and it's been rising ever since.

You name some sappy educational fad that's been used in the last 40 years, and it's tried and died in Memphis. I don't see how this could hurt.

The growing latino population is adding stress to the already overburdened schools with kids who need to be taught English. Keep in mind though that with DeSoto County just across the line there are tons of people bringing kids to the schools in north MS to the point that police sit outside the schools and if you have TN tags they ask for proof of residency including car tag registration when you register your kids. The latino population in north MS and Memphis is booming and has been for almost twenty years regardless of what the census says. 90%+ are illegal.

The whole point of No Child Left Behind, which we all know was an abysmal failure, made Memphis City Schools worse since the kids that really were smart were held back to let the slower kids catch up. They don't have as many advanced teachers to teach the AP classes in Memphis. Teachers don't want to teach in Memphis and a lot of the inner city teachers just want their pension. The ones who really want to teach go to the county schools or get their credentials in MS and teach there while living in a suburb of Memphis typically toward Arlington or Germantown.

Past affluent areas like Hickory Hill are now ghetto to the nth degree. It's not safe to go to the mall there and instead people drive out to Wolfchase which is considered Memphis but is really north Germantown/East Memphis. Well out into the county. The Mall of Memphis later dubbed the Mall of Murder due to the high number of killings and robberies that took place there was closed and the building torn down. They found several more bodies when they tore it down. They had a great indoor mall in downtown Memphis at Peabody Place with an excellent theater but the thugs took it over and even security couldn't handle them so they closed the mall and the Peabody Hotel decided to add more hotel rooms there. It makes sense. So what did the city of Southaven in DeSoto County do when they wanted a mall but not the influx of thugs there? They build an open air mall where you have to go outside to enter every store, much like those in AZ, FL and CA. It's worked. The thugs don't want to stand in the weather and while the parking sucks and being in the weather if you want to exit and then enter another store sucks it's nice to not have to deal with the Memphis thugs if you want to shop. Southaven's original theater was becoming a beacon for thugs when the new Malco theater opened so they remodeled it and made it a church. The skating rinks in Southaven have armed security to keep the thugs out. It's become like a behind the scenes war with DeSoto County fighting to keep their cities thug free. It's not completely working as there are gang members in DeSoto County Schools but there have been zero gang shootings/stabbings in the schools.

While I think that you can't make someone be a good parent, this will help get parents involved if used properly. They're saying it's voluntary which means not many will volunteer. They'd rather wait until school board meetings and bitch that their kids should be bused to a better school in the district.

[Subgenius]

The biggest issues are the kids that are in the inner city schools not the county, that's true but it's not just blacks in those areas. Memphis is getting a huge population of immigrants which has an entirely different set of issues. Living here I've noticed the "white flight" progression into North MS, followed by the blacks wanting out of the shit hole, followed by mostly hispanic immigrants. The gangs here aren't just black anymore. My info is all about 8 years old. I left West TN for East TN in 04, and for a lot of time overseas after that, and now MN. I admit a little ignorance of the effect of hispanic immigration other than it was getting huge even before I left. As far as I can tell from occasional visits and talking with friends, the life of an inner city student still hasn't changed that much other than hearing Spanish and so forth.




It's not just Memphis. The reason so many drugs and guns go through Memphis is due to it being a straight shot on I-55 from the coast to Chicago and then onto Detroit.

Actually, I do have some expertise in this on a personal level and academic. Memphis(and W.Memphis to a degree) is a hub because it's the first place you can get across the mississippi river in the south with interstate that goes cross country. For that reason it is a legal and illegal shipping hub for trucks and cars, whether it's dope coming from South America to go hit somewhere like New York or weed coming from Appalachian pot cartels to go out west of the Mississippi. As you said, 55 does lead north, and it is part of the weapons pipeline that allows semi legally received guns to make their way into the hands of states with tougher gun laws. That same pipeline with quite a bit of illegal foreign weaponry too.


Wrong. Most of the Memphis people come across the line to north MS to buy most of their goods including groceries because the tax rate is 2% lower. They're getting benefits in TN but spending the money in MS.

As a long time Memphian, I gotta say that me or my family lived in Memphis, Germantown, or Unincorporated Shelby County(Southwind Golf Course) for a long time, and we never went to Mississippi to shop at all. Maybe because we weren't pinching pennies, but saying "most" come to Mississippi is just untrue. I only ever went to MS for fireworks. The tax rate is still one of the lower ones in the country was my point.



This is true. Supposedly the TN lottery has donated billions to education but you can't tell it if you drive past a lot of the inner city schools.

They were just kind of starting that up as I was leaving town. I really don't know the effect of the program. I was against it even starting. Keeps the poor really poor. And considering TN government corruption, like you said, it's not really any stretch of the imagination to wonder where the cash is going when you look at and read about Memphis City Schools.



Wrong. Even the county schools are not comparable with private schools anywhere. They're trying but they're not quite there yet. Some of the smaller schools in bedroom communities are getting better scores but they have an average class size of 20 not 35.

From what I have seen up north, County schools did a pretty good job of giving an education, and it tops what I have seen in schools in MPLS/StP/CHI just from observation. Achievement testing in the States is kind of fucked up because it really isn't always a great indicator of how smart children actually. Some degree of standardized testing is how well folks take tests, how much course time is dedicated to teaching towards the test, simple things like making sure a student has something to east and has some physical activity before a test, environment, money in the school and school district, and honestly a bunch of other factors that we could start a whole other thread about. I also really haven't kept up with test scores in Memphis, so I am ignorant as to who is "good" anymore. It was always Germantown/Collierville/Cordova/White Station(city technically but funded the same as county since it's East Memphis). They were kind of perennial powerhouses in the area.


However, that was the premise behind getting the county Mayor A.C. Wharton out of the county and into the city as mayor. He's done well with the county so they're hoping he can do the same with the city. Memphis has a lot of generational welfare people. Grandma was on it, mama was on it so I'll be on it too is the mentality we see a lot when dealing with kids in Memphis. The politics are slowly changing but it will take decades to dig Memphis out of the hole it's in now.

How are the politics slowly changing? From a buddy that works as a firefighter/paramedic, his view is that it slowly getting worse. Also a bevy of factor contributing to this.


The growing latino population is adding stress to the already overburdened schools with kids who need to be taught English. Keep in mind though that with DeSoto County just across the line there are tons of people bringing kids to the schools in north MS to the point that police sit outside the schools and if you have TN tags they ask for proof of residency including car tag registration when you register your kids. The latino population in north MS and Memphis is booming and has been for almost twenty years regardless of what the census says. 90%+ are illegal.

I really can't speak to the effect of the latino population in the area. As I said, I wasn't there to see the boom in the area other than initially. The ripple it caused must be interesting.


The whole point of No Child Left Behind, which we all know was an abysmal failure, made Memphis City Schools worse since the kids that really were smart were held back to let the slower kids catch up. They don't have as many advanced teachers to teach the AP classes in Memphis. Teachers don't want to teach in Memphis and a lot of the inner city teachers just want their pension. The ones who really want to teach go to the county schools or get their credentials in MS and teach there while living in a suburb of Memphis typically toward Arlington or Germantown.

Yeah, it's been that way since before No Child left Behind and the governmental precursors to that program. It's sad, but the inner city Memphis kids basically get a 1950s post Brown Vs. B.ed atmosphere(like 2 minutes after the decision was made).


While I think that you can't make someone be a good parent, this will help get parents involved if used properly. They're saying it's voluntary which means not many will volunteer. They'd rather wait until school board meetings and bitch that their kids should be bused to a better school in the district.

Yeah, I agree on how this might be good if used properly. Everything has really been given a shot in Memphis, so why not the report card. White flight would just cancel any long term effects of busing, but actually getting parents to a school board meeting might be something positive, aside from bitching about busing to better schools.

[Arcanist]

Actually, there is a vast difference between the public school systems withing Shelby County(Memphis and some surrounding areas), and since TN doesn't have an income tax and quite a bit lower state taxes on just everything in comparison to other regions of the country, no one is really being forced to pay for much. And with some of the corruption that TN is famous for, it's arguable how much cash actually gets to any of the schools it's intended for. This causes the schools to have problems actually getting federal money because schools don't spend enough to gain access to federal funds.

County schools are caucasian in majority and probably comparable to a lot of northern private schools(if my experience in MN and IL is any indication). The city schools, overwhelmingly black, on the other hand are a mess. I believe there are still schools with asbestos in them there. They don't ever start on time in the summer because a lot of city schools don't have functioning air conditioning. Test scores have been shit there since way before No child left behind and it's precursors. It's pretty sad. Not much has changed in the city since the civil rights movement even started. Memphis(and TN) politics are super corrupt and only keep these schools in the crapper. Memphis's reputation as national and international shipping hub also carries over to illicit materials too, so unfortunately violence in Memphis is rather high due to conflicting interests.

And it's hard to say what effect the growing latino population is having on the schools because the studies really haven't had loads of time for definitive answers, due to the latino influx really only taking place in a little over 12-13 years. From the 80-90s censuses, TN actually had negative latino population growth from 35kish(i think) to 33-32k, but around 1998-2000 the population over 100k legal(with who knows how many illegal), and it's been rising ever since.

You name some sappy educational fad that's been used in the last 40 years, and it's tried and died in Memphis. I don't see how this could hurt.

Divorce education from the government. From what you've stated here it makes no sense to continually funnel all sorts of tax dollars into a fundamentally broken political system.

[JustMel]

My info is all about 8 years old. I left West TN for East TN in 04, and for a lot of time overseas after that, and now MN. I admit a little ignorance of the effect of hispanic immigration other than it was getting huge even before I left. As far as I can tell from occasional visits and talking with friends, the life of an inner city student still hasn't changed that much other than hearing Spanish and so forth.



Actually, I do have some expertise in this on a personal level and academic. Memphis(and W.Memphis to a degree) is a hub because it's the first place you can get across the mississippi river in the south with interstate that goes cross country. For that reason it is a legal and illegal shipping hub for trucks and cars, whether it's dope coming from South America to go hit somewhere like New York or weed coming from Appalachian pot cartels to go out west of the Mississippi. As you said, 55 does lead north, and it is part of the weapons pipeline that allows semi legally received guns to make their way into the hands of states with tougher gun laws. That same pipeline with quite a bit of illegal foreign weaponry too.



As a long time Memphian, I gotta say that me or my family lived in Memphis, Germantown, or Unincorporated Shelby County(Southwind Golf Course) for a long time, and we never went to Mississippi to shop at all. Maybe because we weren't pinching pennies, but saying "most" come to Mississippi is just untrue. I only ever went to MS for fireworks. The tax rate is still one of the lower ones in the country was my point.




They were just kind of starting that up as I was leaving town. I really don't know the effect of the program. I was against it even starting. Keeps the poor really poor. And considering TN government corruption, like you said, it's not really any stretch of the imagination to wonder where the cash is going when you look at and read about Memphis City Schools.




From what I have seen up north, County schools did a pretty good job of giving an education, and it tops what I have seen in schools in MPLS/StP/CHI just from observation. Achievement testing in the States is kind of fucked up because it really isn't always a great indicator of how smart children actually. Some degree of standardized testing is how well folks take tests, how much course time is dedicated to teaching towards the test, simple things like making sure a student has something to east and has some physical activity before a test, environment, money in the school and school district, and honestly a bunch of other factors that we could start a whole other thread about. I also really haven't kept up with test scores in Memphis, so I am ignorant as to who is "good" anymore. It was always Germantown/Collierville/Cordova/White Station(city technically but funded the same as county since it's East Memphis). They were kind of perennial powerhouses in the area.



How are the politics slowly changing? From a buddy that works as a firefighter/paramedic, his view is that it slowly getting worse. Also a bevy of factor contributing to this.



I really can't speak to the effect of the latino population in the area. As I said, I wasn't there to see the boom in the area other than initially. The ripple it caused must be interesting.



Yeah, it's been that way since before No Child left Behind and the governmental precursors to that program. It's sad, but the inner city Memphis kids basically get a 1950s post Brown Vs. B.ed atmosphere(like 2 minutes after the decision was made).



Yeah, I agree on how this might be good if used properly. Everything has really been given a shot in Memphis, so why not the report card. White flight would just cancel any long term effects of busing, but actually getting parents to a school board meeting might be something positive, aside from bitching about busing to better schools.

I was born and raised in and around Memphis and DeSoto County. I too am a bit of an expert on the movement of guns and drugs here considering I work for a judge and prosecutor. As for people going to MS to shop the last guesstimate by the city said 65% of Memphis city residents shop in MS at least twice a month and 40% at least once a week. That's a lot of money being spent out of state. Considering that I know multiple retail management people in DeSoto County and Memphis and they were asked to keep statistics on shoppers including zip codes (a lot of retail stores do this now) and they're averaging close enough to the above numbers to prove they're accurate enough. Some people decline however, they still collect data unless you shop solely in cash and since a lot of the purchases are made with child support/unemployment state issued debit cards and EBT cards they still track the zip code registered to the card even if the person refuses.

I know several firefighters, EMS and police as well and they say that the cutbacks are bad however, Wharton is supposedly making things better slowly starting with working with the school board to determine the best way for the city/county school showdown, he's trying to clean up decades of misuse, abuse and ignorant city planning. Granted I don't envy him his job but it's bound to get worse before it gets better. Downtown appears to be safer at least most of the time. They'll eventually increase the number of police, fire and EMS workers as they decrease some of the other positions that are given to "city" workers when they should be contracted out or eliminated. It takes time to ferret out all the waste and idiots left after Herenton and the Ford family members that are crooked and have their hooks in places.

I've lived all over the country in my time away from Memphis and I can tell you the schools in the county are much closer to the public school systems out west in CO, WY and MT than they are any northern private schools I've been around. Our private schools in Memphis and DeSoto County are decent. They're about on par with DeSoto County schools which still have some of the highest scores in the state.

[Subgenius]

Divorce education from the government. From what you've stated here it makes no sense to continually funnel all sorts of tax dollars into a fundamentally broken political system.

Eh, It's Memphis. Rationality isn't always big there.

[AnotherAvatar]

Interesting idea. Of course implemented by a failing public school system chock full of apathetic teachers just putting in their time until summer vacation. I mean who better then the folks who have the students full time for 12 years to lay it on the parents for not having the majority of kids be able to do more then long division and read a news paper.

[Subgenius]

Interesting idea. Of course implemented by a failing public school system chock full of apathetic teachers just putting in their time until summer vacation. I mean who better then the folks who have the students full time for 12 years to lay it on the parents for not having the majority of kids be able to do more then long division and read a news paper.

What are your sources for discerning the apathy levels of Memphis teachers?

[Arcanist]

I'm sure he can tell you. He has a political science degree, afterall. They've ways of justifying for their ilk.

[Subgenius]

I'm sure he can tell you. He has a political science degree, afterall. They've ways of justifying for their ilk.

Honestly, It's kind of the other way around in Memphis quite often. They send a lot of student teachers from the U of M to the inner city. A ton of bright eyed cheery folks. They then become jaded and move to the county where all the rich folk are, except for the black folk. They just stay jaded and in the inner city system because no one really wants a darkie teaching their babies.

[Arcanist]

Are we talking high school and up? If so, and this may seem cruel, but not everyone is fit for schooling. At least, not the way it's set up now. Get them through 8th grade, then into some sort of vocational training. Let the people who really want to be there, remain.

[Subgenius]

Are we talking high school and up? If so, and this may seem cruel, but not everyone is fit for schooling. At least, not the way it's set up now. Get them through 8th grade, then into some sort of vocational training. Let the people who really want to be there, remain.

The whole system is a mess. Memphis is kind of the most segregated big city in the States. IMO, a lot more so than NO or Atlanta. The school system is like a throwback to the 1950s, all around. The elementary, secondary, and high schools are all in rough shape. Some of the county schools, the burbs that are still in Shelby County, are quite shit, but for the most part they are just average white suburbish type schools with some very good schools also.

[sircockburn]

And what will be the parents' consequence of being graded as bad parents?

And as someone raised by a "tiger father", I really would hate to see kids endure such pressure thanks to dormant tiger tendencies (if they're there) being awakened within parents by this idea.

[Tactical Panda]

I don't think this will work. Children may have large concerns about report cards, but parents probably have other concerns and priorities that come first in their lives. Replace those priorities with a plan designed to baby them and I have no idea who came up with this plan, but it wasn't me.

[JustMel]

The whole system is a mess. Memphis is kind of the most segregated big city in the States. IMO, a lot more so than NO or Atlanta. The school system is like a throwback to the 1950s, all around. The elementary, secondary, and high schools are all in rough shape. Some of the county schools, the burbs that are still in Shelby County, are quite shit, but for the most part they are just average white suburbish type schools with some very good schools also.

I'll agree with the segregated statement. However, I'm glad my kids aren't in Memphis or Shelby county schools.

And what will be the parents' consequence of being graded as bad parents?

And as someone raised by a "tiger father", I really would hate to see kids endure such pressure thanks to dormant tiger tendencies (if they're there) being awakened within parents by this idea.

According to the newscast I pulled the story from some could face jail time. They've done that for years with regard to absences and tardies. It doesn't really help as one parent walked her middle school child to class, sat her in her seat and left for work. The kid just took off out the backdoor and skipped school anyway.

I don't think this will work. Children may have large concerns about report cards, but parents probably have other concerns and priorities that come first in their lives. Replace those priorities with a plan designed to baby them and I have no idea who came up with this plan, but it wasn't me.

Parents have used public schools to raise their children for too long. While I think this will fail as much as NCLB I do think something needs to be done with regard to kids who fail, are absent and late regularly, etc. How else to make parents accountable than to "grade" them? Begging, pleading and shaming them to take part in their child's school hasn't worked so where to go next?

_____

It's not just Memphis though. I was talking with the principal at my young child's elementary school last week and she said they had three kids that were going to fail first grade for the second time. All three of them are from families who refuse to come to meetings with teachers, ignore phone calls and requests to come in or call the principal (all parents are given her cell number) to discuss their child's failing grades all year. They've all had multiple absences and are late in the mornings at least twice a week. Two of them have come to school sick and had to spend the day in the office because parents could not be reached to come get them during the day. I say it's neglect and the parents should be punished. There is no reason a parent can't return a call to the principal or send a note to their teacher explaining why they haven't been there.

[thod]

I can imagine how my father would have reacted to such a report card. "F**king teachers, they should get a real job". Card thrown in the bin without a second thought. My parents couldn't care less about education, they both left school at 15 without any paper. Thus they could not care less what I did at school either. I am not sure that makes them bad parents though. After all, I turned out all right (laughs).

[JustMel]

I can imagine how my father would have reacted to such a report card. "F**king teachers, they should get a real job". Card thrown in the bin without a second thought. My parents couldn't care less about education, they both left school at 15 without any paper. Thus they could not care less what I did at school either. I am not sure that makes them bad parents though. After all, I turned out all right (laughs).

Then why did they send you to public school if they weren't concerned with your educational achievements.. or lack of?

[Arcanist]

Sending children to public school=child abuse.

[Eridal]

Well that and the fact that not having your child attend in some states will end up with the parent in jail and the child in state custody.

[JustMel]

Sending children to public school=child abuse.

Bullshit. It completely depends on the school and the district. There are far more things that constitute child abuse than sending your kid to a public school in a good neighborhood with good teachers and support staff.

Should the parents who sent their children to private Catholic schools after the tide of abuse my priests be accused of child abuse?

[Arcanist]

Actually, public schooling (and to be fair, most private schooling, even Catholic) is based on the Prussian model. It's meant to churn out good little unquestioning citizen-workers. Creativity, curiosity and inquiry is highly discouraged. If you dare question your teacher, don't worry, because your peers will take care of you. Automatically branded as different in an evironment that discourages intellectual inquiry, you'll be mercilessly tormented until you've learned your lesson. Young minds are warped. Few are fortunate enough to escape.

Schools are in fact, quite prison like. The days are highly regimented: You eat at the appointed time and have your daily exercise over at the yard. The bell rings, you move. The bell rings again, you sit. Frankly, it really is very demeaning and insulting.

These are prime places for statist indoctrination. As with religion, get 'em while they're young!

[JustMel]

Actually, public schooling (and to be fair, most private schooling, even Catholic) is based on the Prussian model. It's meant to churn out good little unquestioning citizen-workers. Creativity, curiosity and inquiry is highly discouraged. If you dare question your teacher, don't worry, because your peers will take care of you. Automatically branded as different in an evironment that discourages intellectual inquiry, you'll be mercilessly tormented until you've learned your lesson. Young minds are warped. Few are fortunate enough to escape.

Schools are in fact, quite prison like. The days are highly regimented: You eat at the appointed time and have your daily exercise over at the yard. The bell rings, you move. The bell rings again, you sit. Frankly, it really is very demeaning and insulting.

These are prime places for statist indoctrination. As with religion, get 'em while they're young!

I think that's a completely jaded and untrue take on public schools. The schools my kids attend (that I (for a couple of years) and my older sister also attended as well as my oldest child who is well past graduation) welcome the students to ask "why" or "how" or for further information. You might have been mercilessly tormented but that's not true of every kid. The kids are welcomed and encouraged to make up their own minds about things and to ask questions. They are expected to reach certain levels and achievements but if they don't they're not branded a failure. In fact, for children who are in danger of failing kindergarten, generally due to being unprepared by their parents, rather than "failing" them and setting that mentality up in them that young but who would struggle in 1st grade thus making them hate school they offer a "Pre-1st" which is one semester of kindergarten and one of 1st grade. Every kid that has taken that class, including the principal's granddaughter, has gone onto maintain A/B honor roll at minimum all through elementary school. They're about seven years into the "pilot" program and it's not offered at all schools but the hope is that they'll maintain their progress into middle and high school.

They do have periods of "creative free play' where they can flit from one activity to another including art supplies, reading, additional work if they want it, a movie corner, or stay with one activity including just socializing if the want, etc. that is carried into the middle and HS years as well.

Having been in montessori schools and in public schools I see up and down sides to both. Not to mention the kid is in school for seven hours per day yet when they're at home some parents tend to either ignore, berate, yell or beat on them vs encouraging "Creativity, curiosity and inquiry".

[Arcanist]

I think that's a completely jaded and untrue take on public schools. The schools my kids attend (that I (for a couple of years) and my older sister also attended as well as my oldest child who is well past graduation) welcome the students to ask "why" or "how" or for further information. You might have been mercilessly tormented but that's not true of every kid. The kids are welcomed and encouraged to make up their own minds about things and to ask questions. They are expected to reach certain levels and achievements but if they don't they're not branded a failure. In fact, for children who are in danger of failing kindergarten, generally due to being unprepared by their parents, rather than "failing" them and setting that mentality up in them that young but who would struggle in 1st grade thus making them hate school they offer a "Pre-1st" which is one semester of kindergarten and one of 1st grade. Every kid that has taken that class, including the principal's granddaughter, has gone onto maintain A/B honor roll at minimum all through elementary school. They're about seven years into the "pilot" program and it's not offered at all schools but the hope is that they'll maintain their progress into middle and high school.

They do have periods of "creative free play' where they can flit from one activity to another including art supplies, reading, additional work if they want it, a movie corner, or stay with one activity including just socializing if the want, etc. that is carried into the middle and HS years as well.

Having been in montessori schools and in public schools I see up and down sides to both. Not to mention the kid is in school for seven hours per day yet when they're at home some parents tend to either ignore, berate, yell or beat on them vs encouraging "Creativity, curiosity and inquiry".

While that sounds nice and all, as I said, the structure itself is insidious and crippling. Just wait until the children are old enough to begin expressing, let's say, unorthodox opinion. If they DARE. Conformity is very important in public schooling and most of the time, the other children do the enforcing. I opened my mouth in high school and paid dearly for it. Not only was I a neopagan, I was a market anarchist (I'm still those things, I just didn't know it back then). Do you think people like me got any sort of support? Do you really think the ideas people like me held were seriously explored? Or the philosophy? You can imagine my experience. The point of all of this is that public schooling only approves of a narrow range of experience. God forbid you fall outside of that range.

But, this has gone far offtopic. If you'd like to know more, John Taylor Gatto is a great source. Here's a link:

Bianca, You Animal, Shut Up! (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[thod]

Then why did they send you to public school if they weren't concerned with your educational achievements.. or lack of?Every kid has to go school, it's the law. They would have sent us anyhow since it is free child care.

If you dare question your teacher, don't worry, because your peers will take care of you.You don't get it. When you come from a working class background, educational achievement is nothing. Nobody cares, nobody even speaks of it. Report cards go straight in the bin. As for parent teacher meetings, you are having a laugh.

Yes peer pressure to conform is there. It is so with all kids of that age regardless. Thus you acquire the social skills will set you up in life. Questioning the teacher was commonplace. But they have 30 kids to teach and cannot waste too much time on you. Screwing around and having fun is the order of the day, not learning. Personal growth over academics. Playing cards in French class. Heck I was moved to special needs class in English because I was disruptive. Didn't harm me, I still passed the exams. Academics were just so easy for me.

Not only was I a neopagan, I was a market anarchist You mean you were a nutjob and didn't like people pointing it out. One advantage of the state system is the other kids will point out that you are crazy and bring you back to reality. The idea is not to support your misconceptions. There is the old saying that it takes a whole village to raise a child. Your parents may be crazy, but others in the village are not. We want you to be exposed to them so that you end up a well rounded individual. The very worst outcome is when parents restrict access to others, like homeschoolers, in order to produce something as crazy as they are.

[Arcanist]

I find it amusing that you talk about personal growth and the well-rounded individual. Tell me how a state system that forces conformity, usually through one's addled peers, produces a well-rounded individual.

The state system lays a narrow track of thoughts and ideas before you. Deviate and be destroyed.

[thod]

The state system lays a narrow track of thoughts and ideas before you. Deviate and be destroyed.

I am making the same accusation. The idea is not to reinforce your current beliefs but to expose you to others. By necessity, that means destroying your beliefs. There is nothing wrong with being conformist if the consensus is an accurate picture of the world. The deviant, with his odd beliefs, is in error. No amount of believing will allow you to cast magic spells or walk through walls.

[JustMel]

I find it amusing that you talk about personal growth and the well-rounded individual. Tell me how a state system that forces conformity, usually through one's addled peers, produces a well-rounded individual.

The state system lays a narrow track of thoughts and ideas before you. Deviate and be destroyed.

Because my experience and my children's experience in public school are not what you are describing. Not all public schools are the cess pit of of "narrow track of thoughts and ideas". Kids are not punished by peers or teachers for asking questions or offering other ideas contrary to what the teacher offers. Not once. I have 11 children who have all been in public school (except the one that went through homeschool beginning 1/2 way through her sophomore year) and none of them were ever punished or ridiculed for offering an alternative to the "norm".

I don't see the "forced conformity" you speak of. If one was to see that happening I'd think it would be more prevalent in religious based private schools where you are expected to conform to the religious beliefs held by that school.

[Arcanist]

There is nothing wrong with being conformist if the consensus is an accurate picture of the world.

It's not.

No amount of believing will allow you to cast magic spells or walk through walls.

What are you talking about?

[Booko]

Most of the school administrators I had to work with couldn't find their way out of a paper sack.

I gave them my report card.

Halfway through 10th grade we took our daughter out to homeschool her so she could get an actual education, because they sure as hell were not doing much of that.

[Arcanist]

Because my experience and my children's experience in public school are not what you are describing. Not all public schools are the cess pit of of "narrow track of thoughts and ideas". Kids are not punished by peers or teachers for asking questions or offering other ideas contrary to what the teacher offers. Not once. I have 11 children who have all been in public school (except the one that went through homeschool beginning 1/2 way through her sophomore year) and none of them were ever punished or ridiculed for offering an alternative to the "norm".

I don't see the "forced conformity" you speak of. If one was to see that happening I'd think it would be more prevalent in religious based private schools where you are expected to conform to the religious beliefs held by that school.

But you're not always there to see what's going on at the school. It's the structure...

Did you check out the link I provided?

[Booko]

I don't see the "forced conformity" you speak of. If one was to see that happening I'd think it would be more prevalent in religious based private schools where you are expected to conform to the religious beliefs held by that school.

That depends on the school. I know quite a few Baha'i kids who go to Catholic or Quaker schools, and they report a better experience than in the public schools where their religious beliefs are concerned. I was a Girl Scout leader at an Episcopalian school for about 5 years -- they didn't demand conformity either from what I saw.

On the other hand, there are some students I and my husband have tutored that were in the local segregation academies...

---------- Post added 04-27-2012 at 02:11 PM ----------

2) Grading bad parents will do nothing but aggravate them. They'll still be bad parents.

Half of the parents of students in schools near me are not very functional in English. They depend on their kids to come translate if they come to vote or have to do some business outside their community.

So sending home grades for them would be a real hoot.

Yeah, I live in a part of my city where all the new immigrants turn up. It's been that way for over 25 years.

The food shopping options and restaurants are awesome. :)

[JustMel]

But you're not always there to see what's going on at the school. It's the structure...

Did you check out the link I provided?

Yes. It didn't change anything considering I'm at my kids' schools at least twice a week and my kids know they can tell me anything that happens at school. I had a teacher who decided it was her place to get in my kid's face (close enough to spit on) and scream at her. She is no longer employed and my kid was out of her class the next day. The superintendent of the district recommended I file assault charges against the teacher.

I have battled teachers, principals, former administrators, etc. Unless you're going to homeschool, and most parents aren't equipped and Gateway is a fucking joke, public and private schools are equal these days with the rare exception being a school that has less than 20 kids per class which even our private and montessori schools do not have.

The only issue I really have with our schools are the tests they have to take to find out how much federal money they'll get next year. They push the tests too much rather than actually seeking to teach them to understand the material. Which is why we go over it and make sure they understand it at home. We had the same issues with private schools only it was tests to determine other financial issues.

You had a shitty experience in public school. You had experience quite like a lot of inner city Memphis kids say they're having. My kids do not. I'll be at the school three days next week proctoring exams. Yes, it's a public school system but it should not be considered free daycare because first, it's not free and second, it's not daycare.

---------- Post added 04-27-2012 at 01:17 PM ----------

Edit: One of the biggest problems I see in public schools which I've also seen in private, are the ill mannered, ill behaved children. Parents don't teach their children manners or how to listen to adults so the teachers end up with a class full of bratty children who won't listen to their parents much less their teachers.

[Booko]

I'm willing to bet that was because parents actually cared about how well their kids did, AND the kids knew there would be consequences for poor work.

There would be consequences for poor work at home, and consequences for bad behaviour at school. Schools no longer seem to be able to enforce even the most rudimentary decent behaviour.

Today's parents expect that teachers will do all the work for them, when in fact teachers have very little authority.

Nearly all moms were at home when I was in school in the 60s and dads worked 40 hours a week with maybe a little overtime on Saturday if you could get it. Things were generally less frazzled and distracting and parents had more time to actually parent.

Some parents today actually to do expect teachers to teach. Holding down multiple jobs makes it a tad difficult for them to pick up the slack. And there does seem to be more slack to pick up.

I'm still wondering how the hell my daughter could get through 3rd grade and only in the last month the teacher decided multiplication tables might be nice to know.

If my 3rd grade teacher had been that off base she would've been coached by a competent staff and if that didn't work she'd be fired and replaced by someone who could get through the material.

[Harmony]

I'm not sure about this. Part of me thinks it's a good idea in theory.... And part of me thinks its a very bad idea.

If parents are going to get graded, I think the child or parent needs the chance to grade the teacher. Actually...now that I think about it... I think I vaguely remember having end of the year surveys on my teachers in high school... Maybe... It's been too many years, I might be thinking of college since i know we did it in college.

[Booko]

If parents are going to get graded, I think the child or parent needs the chance to grade the teacher. Actually...now that I think about it... I think I vaguely remember having end of the year surveys on my teachers in high school... Maybe... It's been too many years, I might be thinking of college since i know we did it in college.

Nah, we were doing end of the semester reviews in middle and high school and that was back in the day...so you probably remember just fine.

Where all that data ended up is anyone's guess.

And my parents didn't have input like that.

[Subgenius]

Yes. It didn't change anything considering I'm at my kids' schools at least twice a week and my kids know they can tell me anything that happens at school. I had a teacher who decided it was her place to get in my kid's face (close enough to spit on) and scream at her. She is no longer employed and my kid was out of her class the next day. The superintendent of the district recommended I file assault charges against the teacher.

I have battled teachers, principals, former administrators, etc. Unless you're going to homeschool, and most parents aren't equipped and Gateway is a fucking joke, public and private schools are equal these days with the rare exception being a school that has less than 20 kids per class which even our private and montessori schools do not have.

The only issue I really have with our schools are the tests they have to take to find out how much federal money they'll get next year. They push the tests too much rather than actually seeking to teach them to understand the material. Which is why we go over it and make sure they understand it at home. We had the same issues with private schools only it was tests to determine other financial issues.

You had a shitty experience in public school. You had experience quite like a lot of inner city Memphis kids say they're having. My kids do not. I'll be at the school three days next week proctoring exams. Yes, it's a public school system but it should not be considered free daycare because first, it's not free and second, it's not daycare.

---------- Post added 04-27-2012 at 01:17 PM ----------

Edit: One of the biggest problems I see in public schools which I've also seen in private, are the ill mannered, ill behaved children. Parents don't teach their children manners or how to listen to adults so the teachers end up with a class full of bratty children who won't listen to their parents much less their teachers.

eh, public schools and private schools in Memphis are not the same. MUS and Hutchinson are miles ahead of any school in the whole Delta.

[Arcanist]

If they are taught that the state is a moral institution, then the damage is done. No matter the degree to which you oversee their education.

[Subgenius]

If they are taught that the state is a moral institution, then the damage is done. No matter the degree to which you oversee their education.

Are you an inner city public school teacher? Specifically in the south?

[JustMel]

eh, public schools and private schools in Memphis are not the same. MUS and Hutchinson are miles ahead of any school in the whole Delta.

Those are not the "average" private school either. Most big cities have elite private schools. However, I know someone whose children attend Hutchison and they're paying almost $20000 (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)a year per kid not counting their books. Most people, especially in Memphis, can't afford that and it's a girls prepatory day school which again is not your average private school .





The bottom line

The most obvious discrepancy between public and private schools comes down to cold, hard cash. The good news for parents is that public schools cannot charge tuition. The bad news is that public schools are complicated, often underfunded operations influenced by political winds and shortfalls. Financed through federal, state, and local taxes, public schools are part of a larger school system, which functions as a part of the government and must follow the rules and regulations set by politicians.
In contrast, private schools must generate their own funding, which typically comes from a variety of sources: tuition; private grants; and fundraising from parents, alumni, and other community members. (Ever wonder why private schools celebrate Grandparent's Day and public schools don't?) If the school is associated with a religious group, the local branch may provide an important source of funding as well.
For parents this quickly translates into the bad news: high tuition costs and sometimes an exhausting work calendar of parent-sponsored fundraisers. According to the National Association of Independent Schools (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), the median tuition for their member private day schools in 2008-2009 in the United States was $17,441. Tuition for boarding schools was close to $37,017. (Of the 28,384 private schools in the United States, about 1,050 are affiliated with the NAIS. Average tuition for nonmember schools is substantially less: Day schools charge $10,841 and boarding schools $23,448.)


Not all schools are created equal:

While most people assume that teachers at private schools are as qualified as those at public ones, it's important to note that all teachers in a public school are usually state certified or, at a minimum, working toward certification. Certification ensures that a teacher has gone through the training required by the state, which includes student teaching and course work. Teachers in private schools may not be required to have certification. Instead, they often have subject-area expertise and an undergraduate or graduate degree in the subject they teach.The "voucher program" they're offering as a solution has a raging debate due to some seeing it as a bailout for private schools that are failing. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. It failed to pass this time but I'm sure it will be back as they're still debating it.

And the debate still rages public vs private:

Public school students in fourth and eighth grade scored almost as well or better than their private school peers in reading and math, except that private school students excelled in eighth-grade reading.
A Harvard University study (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) (pdf) challenged the results, using the same data but different methods. Researchers found that private schools came out ahead in 11 of 12 comparisons of students.
Earlier in 2006, an analysis of math scores by two University of Illinois researchers found similar results to the NCES study. "Charter, Private, Public Schools and Academic Achievement (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)" (pdf) states that "after accounting for the fact that private schools serve more advantaged populations, public schools perform remarkably well, often outscoring private and charter schools."

Interesting information here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) including ACT scores for Memphis city schools.

TN Education officials declare "church based schools and home school diplomas invalid (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)." For those that aren't familiar one of the "church based schools" they're referring to is Gateway which I've always said is a joke. When my 20 yr old had to be homeschooled mid way through her sophomore year we bought the books including the teacher editions and my husband stayed home to teach her. She tested higher than 75% of graduating seniors in the state that took the same test.

[Arcanist]

Are you an inner city public school teacher? Specifically in the south?

No, I'm not. All I'm trying to get across is that 13 years of imprisonment within the depraved public "education" system, really screwed me up. It screwed a lot of kids up. I could have been more and done more if I had that time to pursue what I truly loved and not some one-size-fits-all-lowest-common-denominator "education."

[Clueless]

Edit: One of the biggest problems I see in public schools which I've also seen in private, are the ill mannered, ill behaved children. Parents don't teach their children manners or how to listen to adults so the teachers end up with a class full of bratty children who won't listen to their parents much less their teachers.

You can thank the liberals for this. We're in the process of learning that "time-out" or "redirection" doesn't actually work for many young personalities.

Used to be that children who perhaps went without teachings of discipline at home would at least learn it once they were enrolled in the public school system. Not anymore. Now public grade school teachers are appalled to learn that some early grade schoolers aren't miniature, ignorant adults.

Texas is so misguided that criminal citations are being issued to children as young as 4 for "disorderly conduct". So apparently the masses have decided that criminalizing the misbehavior of a 4 year old and exposing the child to the criminal justice system causes less long-term harm than a good swat on the ass. Brilliant! The stupidity of the masses never ceases to amaze me.

Stay tuned. I guarantee you the chosen course will get much worse before it gets better. I've done the research and since Texas began removing corporal punishment in 1995 dropout rates and rates of incarceration amoung juveniles have both turned skyward.

So before you blame parents for the increase in "bratty children" take a moment to realize that once children begin school they're in the custody of public educators for more waking hours than they're in the custody of parents. Like it or not, choosing elementary education as a profession requires more than teaching academics. Grade school teachers have a duty to act "in loco parentis". If they had wanted to teach adults they should have chosen a different path.

As a parent, if "time out" and "redirection" prove ineffective there's no option to simply call a police officer and jettison the child. A parent is expected to obtain results. Why would anyone acting "in loco parentis" be held to a lessor standard?

[Arcanist]

Maybe they're bratty because they're institutionalized for 6-7 hours 5 days a week?

[Clueless]

Maybe they're bratty because they're institutionalized for 6-7 hours 5 days a week?

I get your point but humans are pretty resilient. There's a balance that's possible. Teaching is not the same thing as training. Aside from my observations on discipline I've noticed that public schools (in Texas at least) don't really teach anymore so much as they train. I don't really expect my german shepherd to improvise and overcome, though she's perhaps better equipped than some children to do so.

Public education here in Texas has definitely taken a wrong turn and on many levels. So long as the tricks can be performed on cue, that's all that matters. It's pretty sad.

[Subgenius]

-You can thank the liberals for this.

-Texas is so misguided that criminal citations are being issued to children as young as 4 for "disorderly conduct". So apparently the masses have decided that criminalizing the misbehavior of a 4 year old and exposing the child to the criminal justice system causes less long-term harm than a good swat on the ass. Brilliant! The stupidity of the masses never ceases to amaze me.



Isn't Texas, other than Austin, pretty conservative and Republican? How is this the liberals fault when the state has been pretty solidly conservative pretty much forever? This is the same state that had all the crazy conservative controversies over textbooks.

[Clueless]

Isn't Texas, other than Austin, pretty conservative and Republican? How is this the liberals fault when the state has been pretty solidly conservative pretty much forever? This is the same state that had all the crazy conservative controversies over textbooks.

Liberalism is pervasive within academia. It's not difficult to understand why folks in training to be professional educators would be susceptible to adopting similar beliefs to those of their "mentors".

I have no ax to grind with liberals in general and consider myself neither liberal nor conservative. I'm in agreement with many "liberal" positions including those relating to gay marriage, abortion, etc. But when it comes to their ideas about child-rearing discipline, they've missed the boat.
Children have highly varied personalities. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Those of us charged with "mentoring" behave irresponsibly when we stubbornly adhere to fixed methodology regardless of efficacy. Additionally it is incredibly short-sighted to limit one's evaluation of consequences with regard to what can be considered as "harmful" or "abusive".
At present in Texas, the alternative to corporal punishment as a last resort is segregation from the core peer-group by way of "alternative discipline centers" and exposure to the criminal justice system. It seems nobody has bothered to consider whether having society communicate to a young child that "there's something wrong with you and you don't belong with the rest of your peers, i.e. you're a criminal" might be more harmful over the long-term than a firm swat on the ass.

That's the message these policies communicate and it's being confirmed by the rising dropout rates and rates of incarceration among juveniles here in Texas. We've implemented policies whereby we're systematically encouraging strong-willed children to become criminals.

The sad part is that the characteristics common to difficult children (risk-tolerance, high curiousity, non-conformity) are required for leadership and entreprenurial success.

[Arcanist]

I get your point but humans are pretty resilient. There's a balance that's possible. Teaching is not the same thing as training. Aside from my observations on discipline I've noticed that public schools (in Texas at least) don't really teach anymore so much as they train. I don't really expect my german shepherd to improvise and overcome, though she's perhaps better equipped than some children to do so.

Public education here in Texas has definitely taken a wrong turn and on many levels. So long as the tricks can be performed on cue, that's all that matters. It's pretty sad.

What is one to do? There are so many entrenched interests that people are pretty much stuck using a horribly broken system. Sure, you might get a halfhearted feelgood change or three but it doesn't address the core issue, which as I see it, is that children shouldn't be institutionalized for 13 years.

Many people feel that today's youth aren't, to use their archaic expressions, "ready to enter the real world." Well, what does one expect when you insulate children from the "outside world" and thrust them into an artificial, "protected" one where they typically spend more time dealing with their wretched "peers" then doing any sort of learning.

[JustMel]

Maybe they're bratty because they're institutionalized for 6-7 hours 5 days a week?

Pick a new war cry. Not everyone is damaged by public schools. There are kids that need the structure and those that don't. However, ill mannered children of 4 years old likely aren't in school so again your hypothesis fails. Kindergarten starts at 5 in most states. Ill mannered children come from homes where parents don't feel discipline is important and don't teach them about consequences for their actions.

[Clueless]

Ill mannered children come from homes where parents don't feel discipline is important and don't teach them about consequences for their actions.

What a beautiful example of ignorance, naivete, and circular reasoning. Children who behave well (while present at the public school) are proof that there's nothing wrong with the existing methodologies employed by public education while those who don't are only proof of poor parenting. You must be a genius and/or public educator.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 11:00 AM ----------

Here's a suggestion; Educate yourself on the subject matter prior to offering up opinion. To do so would be consistent with Lincoln's advice "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt".

[JustMel]

What a beautiful example of ignorance, naivete, and circular reasoning. Children who behave well (while present at the public school) are proof that there's nothing wrong with the existing methodologies employed by public education while those who don't are only proof of poor parenting. You must be a genius and/or public educator.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 11:00 AM ----------

Here's a suggestion; Educate yourself on the subject matter prior to offering up opinion. To do so would be consistent with Lincoln's advice "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt".

Here's a thought, try knowing who you're attempting to condemn before opening your mouth. I'm not only a parent of well mannered children (11 of them), I'm a foster parent of well mannered children (more than 30), I am certified and teach parenting classes in two states, and I work with battered women and kids and provide pregnancy counseling for women who choose to place their children for adoption and those that choose to be a single parent.

Children who have ill manners are often that way simply because their parents do not teach them manners. If they are disrespectful to other parents, children, teachers, daycare workers, people in general and family members, etc it is most often because they are allowed to be disrespectful to their own parents. This is a fact. It's not likely you'll see a child who is disrespectful at home be respectful outside the home. Doubt that? Look to the juvenile court system which I also work in.

You see children in private schools who are disrespectful though it's not as prevalent as it could be, you see it in Montessori schools a lot more. I see it more in the homeschooled kids at places like Gateway than in public schools or that come from parents who homeschool without Gateway. I've had kids in all of the above and am married to the youngest of 13 children who all went to private, Catholic schools back when they still used a ruler to make children mind. Yes, let's beat it into them rather than making manners and good behavior the normal expectation of a child beginning at home. *eyeroll*

The difference between the children now and the children in the 70s and before is our parents expected decent manners and behavior. More parents now raise children to be "free spirits". Sorry if little Johnny is a jackass who can't behave and has no manners that is a parenting fail not a public school one. School is for teaching math, english, reading etc not for the lessons that should come from parents.

[Aronnax]

What a beautiful example of ignorance, naivete, and circular reasoning. Children who behave well (while present at the public school) are proof that there's nothing wrong with the existing methodologies employed by public education while those who don't are only proof of poor parenting. You must be a genius and/or public educator.

So if schools are responsible for teaching children how to behave as well as literacy and math, what exactly is the parent's responsibility?

[Arcanist]

@JustMel

Just so we're clear: Do you support a public system of education that damages certain subsets of children?

[AnotherAvatar]

Put birth control in the water...

In five years you see a marked reduction in kindergarten enrollment, in 12 years the system is basically 'fixed'.

[Clueless]

Children who have ill manners are often that way simply because their parents do not teach them manners.


School is for teaching math, english, reading etc not for the lessons that should come from parents.

I couldn't care less what you think your qualifications are when you make these sorts of unsubstantiated generalizations which can be backed by neither logic nor research data.

Some questions:

When you say "school is for teaching....academics" and that discipline should come from the parents, is it because your position is that the self-discipline portion of a child's education should be completed prior to age 4/5?

What do you suppose is the result when the public school system fails to reinforce (in a manner suitable to the individual child) lessons taught at home with regard to expectations of self-discipline, manners, etc?

Do you believe ALL children can be effectively taught with a single method?

Do you believe corporal punishment is more or less abusive than exposing an 8 year old child to the criminal justice system for an offense such as cursing?

Your answers to these questions will help clarify your opinion. You seem to have an opinion consistent with that commonly held by many public educators/administrators here in Texas. It is flawed. The arrogance is astounding, and it's highly harmful to many strong-willed children who are in need of firm guidance.

[vampyroteuthis]

many strong-willed children who are in need of firm guidance.

With a paddle?

[Clueless]

So if schools are responsible for teaching children how to behave as well as literacy and math, what exactly is the parent's responsibility?

Before you jump in with both feet, review what I've already posted. You're typically pretty intelligent so I'm going to give you a "pass" until you catch up.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 11:36 AM ----------

With a paddle?

Would you prefer a criminal citation? An "alternative discipline center" where they're removed from the core peer group and thrown together with other equally difficult children? A jail cell?

It's important to compare the ramifications of ALL potential solutions one to another before drawing blanket conclusions.

[vampyroteuthis]

Would you prefer a criminal citation? An "alternative discipline center" where they're removed from the core peer group and thrown together with other equally difficult children? A jail cell?

It's important to compare the ramifications of ALL potential solutions one to another before drawing blanket conclusions.

No, I'm just wondering why your dislike of the nanny state, which I share, seems to entail recourse to corporal punishment.

[Clueless]

No, I'm just wondering why your dislike of the nanny state, which I share, seems to entail recourse to corporal punishment.

We have what we have and it's not likely to change dramatically anytime soon. Meanwhile societal function in the US is largely dependent upon public education to "mentor" our young because economic survival of the family is increasingly reliant on dual-earner households.

Generally speaking, mom and dad go off to work and are reliant upon public education to continue what has been started/is on-going at home with regard to little Johnny's upbringing.

Public education is a social compact, hence the concept of "in-loco parentis". Why should persons acting in that capacity be held to a lessor standard?

[vampyroteuthis]

We have what we have and it's not likely to change dramatically anytime soon. Meanwhile societal function in the US is largely dependent upon public education to "mentor" our young because economic survival of the family is increasingly reliant on dual-earner households.

Generally speaking, mom and dad go off to work and are reliant upon public education to continue what has been started/is on-going at home with regard to little Johnny's upbringing.

Public education is a social compact, hence the concept of "in-loco parentis". Why should persons acting in that capacity be held to a lessor standard?

Again, why corporal punishment?

[Clueless]

If a person has no desire to deal with "bratty children" what the hell are they doing in public education?

When did it become logical that the world would be filled with nothing but high-caliber parents?

But because little Johnny may have drawn a short straw with regard to parents, is that justification for the rest of us to opt-out? "Too bad kid, you drew shitty parents. They didn't teach you any manners and we're not going to make the effort either, you're not worth it. If you show up here (public education) in need of something other than being taught reading, math, etc., we're just gonna go ahead and begin funnelling you toward the prison system."

Sound good?

[vampyroteuthis]

If a person has no desire to deal with "bratty children" what the hell are they doing in public education?

When did it become logical that the world would be filled with nothing but high-caliber parents?

But because little Johnny may have drawn a short straw with regard to parents, is that justification for the rest of us to opt-out? "Too bad kid, you drew shitty parents. They didn't teach you any manners and we're not going to make the effort either, you're not worth it. If you show up here (public education) in need of something other than being taught reading, math, etc., we're just gonna go ahead and begin funnelling you toward the prison system."

Sound good?

I think you're hearing what you want to hear. I agree with you about the prison system. I'm asking why you seem to think the only viable alternative is to allow corporal punishment.

[Clueless]

Again, why corporal punishment?

It's an example. But, again, if non-corporal methods fail to yield results what is your alternative?

Criminal citation? Indoctrination into the penal system? A bullet?

Throwing one's hands in the air and "giving up" is not an option.

What is your alternative if non-corporal methods fail to produce desired results?

[vampyroteuthis]

It's an example. But, again, if non-corporal methods fail to yield results what is your alternative?

Criminal citation? Indoctrination into the penal system? A bullet?

Throwing one's hands in the air and "giving up" is not an option.

What is your alternative if non-corporal methods fail to produce desired results?

Accept a society of malcontents. What are the desired results?

[Clueless]

Accept a society of malcontents. What are the desired results?

You'd have to ask the public educators.

Best I can tell from what I read, when a child is disruptive/disobedient and "time-out", "positive redirection", and other non-corporal methods fail this is considered undesireable.

[vampyroteuthis]

You'd have to ask the public educators.

Best I can tell from what I read, when a child is disruptive/disobedient and "time-out", "positive redirection", and other non-corporal methods fail this is considered undesireable.

If the maintenance of order through violence trumps the ostensible lesson, the structure becomes the content. Corporal punishment is itself a lesson, as is institutionalisation. Which leads me to wonder why you still believe this:
The sad part is that the characteristics common to difficult children (risk-tolerance, high curiousity, non-conformity) are required for leadership and entreprenurial success.

[Clueless]

If the maintenance of order through violence trumps the ostensible lesson, the structure becomes the content. Corporal punishment is itself a lesson, as is institutionalisation. Which leads me to wonder why you still believe this:

I have never seen so many people in one place so fascinated with the word "violence".

I think it's a sign of folks who've "educated" themselves right out of any realistic understanding of humanity.

Gee whiz!!!

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 12:46 PM ----------

BTW, in my quote you cited I should have typed "almost required". I believe that because it's actually helpful to have a mind of one's own and not blindly accept the opinions and ideas of others.

[vampyroteuthis]

I have never seen so many people in one place so fascinated with the word "violence".

I think it's a sign of folks who've "educated" themselves right out of any realistic understanding of humanity.

Gee whiz!!!
I was "educated" with the paddle, the wooden ruler, the cane, the ham fist, and being made to run 600 metres round the playing field in 45-degree weather (that's 113 Fahrenheit) from pre-school onwards, though I didn't fare as badly as some other kids in my school who were hospitalized for their injuries. You can blame corporal punishment for my lack of a "realistic understanding of humanity".

As it turns out, offering a free meal at schools to starving children boosts attendance exponentially. By your logic, this could be an effective deterrent to institutionalisation. You haven't offered anything more substantive than this yet.

BTW, in my quote you cited I should have typed "almost required". I believe that because it's actually helpful to have a mind of one's own and not blindly accept the opinions and ideas of others.
Does the corporate world agree with you, though?

[Clueless]

I was "educated" with the paddle, the wooden ruler, the cane, the ham fist, and being made to run 600 metres round the playing field in 45-degree weather (that's 113 Fahrenheit) from pre-school onwards, though I didn't fare as badly as some other kids in my school who were hospitalized for their injuries. You can blame corporal punishment for my lack of a "realistic understanding of humanity".

Then perhaps you should recuse yourself from the conversation if you're incapable of objective discourse.

[vampyroteuthis]

Then perhaps you should recuse yourself from the conversation if you're incapable of objective discourse.

Or perhaps you could look at systems that legalize corporal punishment before you make claims about its efficacy relative to US institutionalization. Or indeed, its efficacy at all in creating the traits you claim are systemically "desirable" without proof other than that you, personally, like them.

[Clueless]

Or perhaps you could look at systems that legalize corporal punishment before you make claims about its efficacy relative to US institutionalization. Or indeed, its efficacy at all in creating the traits you claim are systemically "desirable" without proof other than that you, personally, like them.

I made no claims about the efficacy of corporal punishment. Find one, show it to me.

Additionally, find and show me where I made any connection to between corporal punishment and the creation of desireable traits of any kind.

Finally, show me where I claimed that any traits were "systemically" desireable.

There's a reason I dislike engaging you in discussion. It's because you tend to "read" a whole lotta shit that simply ain't there.

Good grief!!!

[Arcanist]

Since there is very little hope in changing the public system in any significant way, I sure wish there was a way to opt out of it. How is it fair that I have to pay for my child's education twice, if I opt NOT to send it to an abusive public institution and instead choose a school that treats my child as a sentient human being?

[Subgenius]

@ Clueless
I made no claims about the efficacy of corporal punishment. Find one, show it to me.

Additionally, find and show me where I made any connection to between corporal punishment and the creation of desireable traits of any kind.





Texas is so misguided that criminal citations are being issued to children as young as 4 for "disorderly conduct". So apparently the masses have decided that criminalizing the misbehavior of a 4 year old and exposing the child to the criminal justice system causes less long-term harm than a good swat on the ass. Brilliant! The stupidity of the masses never ceases to amaze me.

Stay tuned. I guarantee you the chosen course will get much worse before it gets better. I've done the research and since Texas began removing corporal punishment in 1995 dropout rates and rates of incarceration amoung juveniles have both turned skyward.








At present in Texas, the alternative to corporal punishment as a last resort is segregation from the core peer-group by way of "alternative discipline centers" and exposure to the criminal justice system. It seems nobody has bothered to consider whether having society communicate to a young child that "there's something wrong with you and you don't belong with the rest of your peers, i.e. you're a criminal" might be more harmful over the long-term than a firm swat on the ass.

That's the message these policies communicate and it's being confirmed by the rising dropout rates and rates of incarceration among juveniles here in Texas. We've implemented policies whereby we're systematically encouraging strong-willed children to become criminals.


Well, you don't come out and say that drop rates will decrease as an effect of corporal punishment being reinstate in the area affected, but as one reads this it sure seems like implication to me. Maybe I'm wrong. You seem to be pretty pro corporal punishment, or at least it seems so to me due to you referring to it endearingly multiple times a "swat on the ass". I'm a bit confused about this lack of "firm guidance" in Texas when numbers kind of show it to be a pretty pro corporal punishment state. I gotta write to Arcanist though before I forget.

@arcanist We get it. Please stop with the ad nauseum "High School is a prison (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)" mantra. Your link isn't applicable to the inner city schools of the urban south, especially Memphis. TN, especially Memphis, is quite different than New England, NY, NYC, and Manhattan where your blogger hails from and gathers experience from. Tn, and Memphis again, do not have a social support system at all, let alone something as ginormous as NY/NYC's. Your disdain for the public school system wouldn't exactly help a school system that had a drop out rate a little over 17 percent as of 5 years ago. Memphis is still stuck in the mid 20th century in its treatment of african american students. The City School system had to merge with the county just to funding. The schools were actually closed for a time because they weren't able to get their funding from the city council. Local business has actually to take up the slack to deliver funding. So, how exactly are Memphis City Schools a prison when they can barely keep their children in the doors due to a number of variables. While the idea of grading parents is kind of fucked up, patronizing, and maybe not a help. Why is it necessarily a waste of resources for the parents that actually wish to participate and possibly help there child out? I'm sorry you have to pay for children's education to be worthwhile, but that has been the case for a long time. No one wants to give money to the public school in the amounts it actually needs. It's a budgeting issue, and privatized schooling takes up the slack like it does with quite a few other fields in America. C'est la vie.

@ clueless So this whole Texas thing, what is it about? From what I am reading, as of 2010 only 40 of 1,033 school districts (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) had actually banned corporal punishment in Texas. As the latest numbers I could find on corporal punishment come from the 2005-6 school years, Texas had a 1.1% rate of corporal punishment, which was rated as the 7th highest percentage in the US. They also actually beat the most students with numbers a little over 49k students. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) What area of Texas are you referring to where citations are being handed out? Dallas/FTW? And could you please provide reference for the child being sent to the police? Do you really think corporal punishment is a wise decision in gang infested areas? Should a teacher/administrator really have to fear being beaten/killed/raped for punishment? It's almost laughable to think that corporal punishment will have any positive effect. What data do you have to support your opinions on drop out rates going up when corporal punishment stopped?

Why not actually start shifting funds so that "guidance" can actually be attained from a certified psychologist that can work with students/teachers/parents? The answer, which is used as a crutch for a number of education problems, is that there is no money for it and there never will be. So just paddle away, for it's super cheap and totally easy to justify it culturally. It's kind of in the Bible no less.

When you say "school is for teaching....academics" and that discipline should come from the parents, is it because your position is that the self-discipline portion of a child's education should be completed prior to age 4/5?

Hardly, self discipline is something that is a life long battle.

What do you suppose is the result when the public school system fails to reinforce (in a manner suitable to the individual child) lessons taught at home with regard to expectations of self-discipline, manners, etc?

Difficult to say because it is an individual matter and studies on it usually go into extreme cases as opposed to norms. What data do you have to support your position?

Do you believe ALL children can be effectively taught with a single method?

Of course not, theories are picked up/put down and combined all the time.

Do you believe corporal punishment is more or less abusive than exposing an 8 year old child to the criminal justice system for an offense such as cursing?

I would like to see some kind of reference for this event. I kind of remember something like this happening somewhere in the US and being reported on, but from what I remember the kid was kind of an extreme case that was being physically aggressive aside from cursing.

As for the question, I do think it is a waste of money to get the police involved. Christ, just the cost of the gas used for the police to cart a child away or give them a criminal citation makes corporal punishment a great frugal option for an administrator. There isn't even much of a time crunch because you can paddle them right away while the aberrant behavior is fresh in the students mind in comparison to having to wait 30minutes to an hour for someone official to show up.

None of this justifies hitting a child. Why does any abuse, whether physical or emotional/mental as you have suggested with the justice system example, have to happen at all? Wouldn't a staff psychologist that specifically worked with children/teachers/parents to get to the root of a problem and has a much better bead on the workings of a child's mind make a lot more sense? Of course it does. "Spare the rod; spoil the child" is just so much damn cheaper.

Still, the issue being brought up by justmel is an optional approach aimed at parents in a problem ridden, predominantly African American, inner city school district in Tennessee that want help with with their children. A lot of the parents that would be affected are primarily single african american mothers who have a societal, economic, and cultural disadvantages working against them(for a ethnographic assessment of african american inner city life that is still pretty valid see All our Kin by Stack). Having a set of standards to shoot for could be helpful in Memphis. There is, of course, a blowback from the white population of Memphis that until recently was a totally different school district. Since the inner city doesn't really get cash however, the division in school districts still kind of stands. The change is in name only. So, why do you keep bringing up Texas? It has its own set of problems that aren't necessarily relevant to a discussion about TN, specifically Memphis, other than being another southern bible belt state. I guess they might be relevant if you want to talk about this as a problem nationally, but this discussion really hasn't gone that way even though it may have been intended in the original post.

[vampyroteuthis]

I made no claims about the efficacy of corporal punishment. Find one, show it to me.
So apparently the masses have decided that criminalizing the misbehavior of a 4 year old and exposing the child to the criminal justice system causes less long-term harm than a good swat on the ass. Brilliant! The stupidity of the masses never ceases to amaze me.
Reductive characterisation about corporal punishment and characterization of the current prioritisation of institutional intervention over corporal punishment as stupid.
To be clear, again, my claim is that they're both fucking stupid and the relative merits of each can only be assessed systemically, by first staking out what your criteria are for a desirable educational outcome. Since it doesn't seem to be getting through: I'm asking you why corporal punishment is even on the table in your reckoning as an alternative to institutionalization, as opposed to rejecting both and sticking to non-corporal methods only. Why do you frame it as a 'recourse'? And why do you diminish its impact instead of looking at systems that do legalize corporal punishment and then comparing them to the US system?

More examples of this undefended framing:
At present in Texas, the alternative to corporal punishment as a last resort is segregation from the core peer-group by way of "alternative discipline centers" and exposure to the criminal justice system. It seems nobody has bothered to consider whether having society communicate to a young child that "there's something wrong with you and you don't belong with the rest of your peers, i.e. you're a criminal" might be more harmful over the long-term than a firm swat on the ass.
But, again, if non-corporal methods fail to yield results what is your alternative?
Throwing one's hands in the air and "giving up" is not an option.

What is your alternative if non-corporal methods fail to produce desired results?

Your responses to me rest on the unquestioned notion that corporal methods "succeed" as a recourse when non-corporal methods "fail to produce desired results". I am arguing that they are not a recourse at all.

Additionally, find and show me where I made any connection to between corporal punishment and the creation of desireable traits of any kind.
You brought up corporal punishment as a "last resort" when "non corporal methods fail to produce desirable results". I asked you what the desirable result is and your answer was:
Best I can tell from what I read, when a child is disruptive/disobedient and "time-out", "positive redirection", and other non-corporal methods fail this is considered undesireable.
Again, why would corporal punishment succeed where non-corporal methods "fail"? And what are they succeeding at? If your answer is the maintenance of order and obedience (going by your reading of public educators' rationale), then why are those things desirable? Are they desirable to you?

Finally, show me where I claimed that any traits were "systemically" desireable.
The sad part is that the characteristics common to difficult children (risk-tolerance, high curiousity, non-conformity) are required for leadership and entreprenurial success.
Systemically was my word. How would you put it? I would argue that leadership and entrepreneurial success actually require limited thinking and a great deal of conformity, so in that sense, the educational system serves the corporate system quite well, though I agree with you about risk-tolerance.

There's a reason I dislike engaging you in discussion. It's because you tend to "read" a whole lotta shit that simply ain't there.
Have we had a discussion before? Apparently it wasn't memorable. In any case, I'm asking you what is there, because you make a lot of logical leaps covered over with hand-waving but your actual argument isn't clear. You make a lot of unfounded assumptions. I've asked the same questions over and over again now and I dislike tedium. Care to spell it out without trying to have a go at me personally?

[Clueless]

@ subgenius and Vamp:

Here, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Educate yourselves then we can talk.

[vampyroteuthis]

@ subgenius and Vamp:

Here, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Educate yourselves then we can talk.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Did you miss the times I repeated that I agree with your view of the prison system? I am familiar with this phenomenon.

Again, I'm asking why you put corporal punishment on the table as a "recourse", etc. etc.

[JustMel]

@JustMel

Just so we're clear: Do you support a public system of education that damages certain subsets of children?

I support a public education system for those whose parents can't/won't afford private school. However, I think that schools should recognize that not all students learn the same way and they should take that into account when teaching. Our kids are given a test to see how they learn (visually, verbally, etc) and then they are taught the way that works for them in elementary schools. The HS is working on implementing the same type of system.

Your question is inflammatory at best and ignorant at worst. No one wants any child damaged at least not intentionally however you can't prove that the majority of kids are harmed from a public education. Give it up already. You had a shitty school time, not everyone does.

I couldn't care less what you think your qualifications are when you make these sorts of unsubstantiated generalizations which can be backed by neither logic nor research data.

And I don't care what the fuck you think your qualifications are to speak about something that ZERO to do with the original topic. Actually, my "generalizations" are based on more than 20 years of raising children successfully and from decades of working with parents and children. Which does make me qualified to speak on it.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Some questions:

When you say "school is for teaching....academics" and that discipline should come from the parents, is it because your position is that the self-discipline portion of a child's education should be completed prior to age 4/5?

Self discipline can be reinforced at school but it should begin at home.


What do you suppose is the result when the public school system fails to reinforce (in a manner suitable to the individual child) lessons taught at home with regard to expectations of self-discipline, manners, etc?

Reinforce how? Most states have outlawed corporal punishment. If a teacher says "drop and give me ten" and they don't comply all they can do is send them to the office where they can't paddle them so they have to either ignore the behavior, offer detention that parents can and often do refuse, suspend them or call parents who often don't do anything.


Do you believe ALL children can be effectively taught with a single method?

Do you read? I've answered that before. Several times. No. But then our public schools teach based on how the kids learn not on one way for all. They break them into different groups based on how they learn and teach accordingly. If they have to go back over a section for the visual learners that they didn't get because the lesson was tailored to the auditory learners they do so.


Do you believe corporal punishment is more or less abusive than exposing an 8 year old child to the criminal justice system for an offense such as cursing?

So you believe that corporal punishment and the criminal justice system are the only options available? We have police officers assigned to every school in the county and it's rare they arrest anyone. They do talk to the kids that are in trouble and their parents and if needed they'll refer them to the CJS but it's rare.

I believe that manners and respect are taught at home and schools reinforce them. But when a teacher tells a student "say thank you" or "say excuse me" and they're told "fuck you" and the parent is called and they say "oh they're just being kids" that's a parental fail.


Your answers to these questions will help clarify your opinion. You seem to have an opinion consistent with that commonly held by many public educators/administrators here in Texas. It is flawed. The arrogance is astounding, and it's highly harmful to many strong-willed children who are in need of firm guidance.

Who cares about Texas? This is about public schools grading parents in Memphis, TN with some of the worst public schools in the country.

Funny, I was awarded custody of a child in November because she needs "firm guidance that the natural parent is incapable of providing."

Parents are failing to teach their children how to behave properly which leads to them not behaving in public and at school. Parents screamed "i don't want my kids paddled" so they took corp. punishment out of most schools in the country, teachers have very little recourse at that point but to call the parents who often blow them off and say "they're at school so it's your problem."

If a person has no desire to deal with "bratty children" what the hell are they doing in public education?

I'm not in public education. I'm in law. I deal with the kids when the parents can't/won't/don't. I get to clean up after ineffective parents.


When did it become logical that the world would be filled with nothing but high-caliber parents?

Teaching your children to say "thank you" and "please" and "excuse me" and eat without smacking or sit in a restaurant and be quiet so as not to disturb others is not "high caliber" parenting. It's the bare minimum.


But because little Johnny may have drawn a short straw with regard to parents, is that justification for the rest of us to opt-out? "Too bad kid, you drew shitty parents. They didn't teach you any manners and we're not going to make the effort either, you're not worth it. If you show up here (public education) in need of something other than being taught reading, math, etc., we're just gonna go ahead and begin funnelling you toward the prison system."

Sound good?

So how many parents do you know that would let you discipline their children if they didn't want to do it themselves? Zero most likely outside of close family if that. How many kids have you seen throw screaming hissy fits in stores because they didn't get their way and the parents give in so the kids will stop screaming rather than following through on their threat to leave the store if they don't behave? I see them every time I go to any store. Teachers can help them by reminding them of their manners at school however if they're not using them at home it's not going to have an impact.

I was at the HS once upon a time when they called me for a foster kid (who had been with us for about three days) who got into a fight. While I was there a parent was in there yelling at a principal for suspending her child for finding drugs in their locker. the police were there too. The parent's stance was "it's your job to teach them, not worry about what they're taking or selling". The police officer said "It's our business because other children are affected. Do you teach your children that it's okay to sell drugs?" the woman replied "what I teach my children is NONE of your business." This is the norm rather than the exception when dealing with disciplinary problems.

We have a report here (outside of Memphis) called CHINS (child in need of supervision) it's a summons for the parents (both custodial and non-custodial) to be in court and explain why their child is in trouble and how they're going to work with the court to ensure it doesn't happen again. It started because issues typically seen only in HS were becoming big in middle and elementary schools. Drugs, sex, fighting, arguing with teachers when told to sit down or be quiet, etc. Finally, when they started making parents go to court we started seeing fewer issues in the school.

Bottom line: kids' foundation for behavior is found in the home with the parents. If parents don't teach their children what is and is not acceptable behavior then it's not anyone else's job to do so. Teachers should reinforce basic manners and acceptable behavior but if there is no foundation we're adding life lessons to academics. They signed onto teach academics, not to teach them the lessons that parents had 5/6 years to start teaching at home.

[Clueless]

I'm in law.


Why didn't you say this in the beginning? Would have saved us both a lot of time.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 03:11 PM ----------

Oh, for fuck's sake. Did you miss the times I repeated that I agree with your view of the prison system? I am familiar with this phenomenon.

Again, I'm asking why you put corporal punishment on the table as a "recourse", etc. etc.

I didn't realize you weren't smart enough to distinguish a "lesser of two evils" scenario.

Additionally, I didn't realize you weren't smart enough to extrapolate that a movement away from CP in favor of other methods in it's place, leading to higher dropout rates and rates of juvenile incarceration is obviously indicative of a move in the wrong direction-assuming only that lowered rates of dropout and juvenile incarceration are preferable.

They are preferable in my view.

[vampyroteuthis]

I didn't realize you weren't smart enough to distinguish a "lesser of two evils" scenario.

Additionally, I didn't realize you weren't smart enough to extrapolate that a movement away from CP in favor of other methods in it's place, leading to higher dropout rates and rates of juvenile incarceration is obviously indicative of a move in the wrong direction-assuming only that lowered rates of dropout and juvenile incarceration are preferable.

I understood that you were setting it up as a "lesser of two evils" scenario, but I'm asking what your criteria are and why you seem to be locked into this false dichotomy. Does insulting people's intelligence usually enable you to waffle?

They are preferable in my view.
Which you will explain when?

[JustMel]

Why didn't you say this in the beginning? Would have saved us both a lot of time.



Because my experience as a parent and foster parent raising multiple productive, successful children who are all well mannered seems more important than someone who works in law.

[Subgenius]

@ subgenius and Vamp:

Here, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Educate yourselves then we can talk.

Yeah, I still don't see what this has to do with a program being put in place in Memphis other than for you to prove some kind of unrelated point that you say you haven't admitted to even making. Maybe I missed a comment, but I didn't see what made for this transition. From what I skimmed, the best practice model in here included what I said about having a shrink in-house but funding prevents it. I'll give it a looksie later, for I have a linguistics class I need to be at 45 minutes early to. Adios.

[Clueless]

I understood that you were setting it up as a "lesser of two evils" scenario, but I'm asking what your criteria are and why you seem to be locked into this false dichotomy. Does insulting people's intelligence usually enable you to waffle?

How do you figure there's any waffling?


Which you will explain when?

If this is something I must explain you are literally too stupid for my time, rather than someone who might be insulted into providing a firm position.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 04:33 PM ----------

Yeah, I still don't see what this has to do with a program being put in place in Memphis other than for you to prove some kind of unrelated point that you say you haven't admitted to even making. Maybe I missed a comment, but I didn't see what made for this transition. From what I skimmed, the best practice model in here included what I said about having a shrink in-house but funding prevents it. I'll give it a looksie later, for I have a linguistics class I need to be at 45 minutes early to. Adios.


It has to do with Memphis only in that public education inherently includes children from all walks of life. That "parent report cards" could succeed in converting some parents from what they are to something closer to what the state would prefer is laughable.

In my view the idea is an extension of the circular reasoning to which I've already alluded.

Cry me a river public educators. You chose the profession, now "bratty kids" have turned your summer vacation into 9 months of actual work.

[vampyroteuthis]

How do you figure there's any waffling?

If this is something I must explain you are literally too stupid for my time, rather than someone who might be insulted into providing a firm position.

Assumptions that make you go thus far and no further.


Why is it a choice between legalised corporal punishment and institutionalisation? Why the dichotomy?
How does framing corporal punishment as 'recourse' when 'non corporal methods fail' not rest on the assumption that corporal punishment is more successful, even if deferred to a "last resort"? What is it more successful at achieving, how do you know it's more successful, and why is that goal desirable -- not from the point of view of educators seeking to maintain order, but in your view?
Why conflate what's preferable in your view to what's systemically optimal? The shift to a prison pipeline model isn't incidental. You've no basis for assuming it's a move towards decreased efficiency. Efficiency is measured in relation to outcomes that don't map to your naive view of what education ought to do.
If you stake out what you think education ought to do, you might find that the existing structure does not support it. That's why I asked you what your criteria are.


You throw around terms like "efficient" and "desirable" but switch between what's efficient and desirable for the system and what you find ethical. I really don't know how many more ways there are to ask the same set of questions. The attempt at using bullying tactics is consistent with the argument, though, so at least you have that.

[Clueless]

Assumptions that make you go thus far and no further.


Why is it a choice between legalised corporal punishment and institutionalisation? Why the dichotomy?

I didn't choose those two options. They were chosen by the state (Texas in this case). CP used to be the "deterrent of last resort" now it's ADC (alternative discipline centers) in most large school districts.


How does framing corporal punishment as 'recourse' when 'non corporal methods fail' not rest on the assumption that corporal punishment is more successful, even if deferred to a "last resort"? What is it more successful at achieving, how do you know it's more successful, and why is that goal desirable -- not from the point of view of educators seeking to maintain order, but in your view?

If this is your argumentative way of attempting to have me state that I find fewer kids dropping out and/or being incarcerated a more desirable goal, fine. I thought that I had already conceded that view.




Why conflate what's preferable in your view to what's systemically optimal? The shift to a prison pipeline model isn't incidental. You've no basis for assuming it's a move towards decreased efficiency. Efficiency is measured in relation to outcomes that don't map to your naive view of what education ought to do.
If you stake out what you think education ought to do, you might find that the existing structure does not support it. That's why I asked you what your criteria are.


Again, I thought that I had already conceded the opinion that education (here in Texas) ought to do what it used to do, which was result in fewer juvenile age humans dropping out of high school and being incarcerated.




You throw around terms like "efficient" and "desirable" but switch between what's efficient and desirable for the system and what you find ethical. I really don't know how many more ways there are to ask the same set of questions. The attempt at using bullying tactics is consistent with the argument, though, so at least you have that.

I'm so sorry you feel bullied!! Do you think it'll make you go on a murderous rampage? Is there something perhaps the state could do to intervene?

If your position is that these kids will ultimately end up in prison anyway, why not just abort them when undesirables become pregnant and use the tax dollars for something we all might enjoy.

[vampyroteuthis]

I didn't choose those two options. They were chosen by the state (Texas in this case). CP used to be the "deterrent of last resort" now it's ADC (alternative discipline centers) in most large school districts.
Why be limited by what the state has chosen so far?

If this is your argumentative way of attempting to have me state that I find fewer kids dropping out and/or being incarcerated a more desirable goal, fine. I thought that I had already conceded that view.
One does not follow from the other. I agree with your premise but you've yet to show that "recourse" to corporal punishment is the only viable alternative.

Again, I thought that I had already conceded the opinion that education (here in Texas) ought to do what it used to do, which was result in fewer juvenile age humans dropping out of high school and being incarcerated.
Again, limiting. Why should it do what it used to do, instead of something else entirely?

I'm so sorry you feel bullied!! Do you think it'll make you go on a murderous rampage? Is there something perhaps the state could do to intervene?
My point was that your tactics aren't working, but they do reveal a limitation in your thinking. It's telling that you said:
If this is something I must explain you are literally too stupid for my time, rather than someone who might be insulted into providing a firm position.
That you think insulting me is a valid or necessary tactic suggests that maybe the problem isn't that alternative methods of discourse and teaching don't work so much as that you are not able to understand them.

If your position is that these kids will ultimately end up in prison anyway, why not just abort them when undesirables become pregnant and use the tax dollars for something we all might enjoy.
My position is that the system isn't inefficient, but unethical, and you're conflating the two.

[JustMel]

It has to do with Memphis only in that public education inherently includes children from all walks of life. That "parent report cards" could succeed in converting some parents from what they are to something closer to what the state would prefer is laughable.

In my view the idea is an extension of the circular reasoning to which I've already alluded.

Cry me a river public educators. You chose the profession, now "bratty kids" have turned your summer vacation into 9 months of actual work.

Wrong it has to do with Memphis because Memphis is the one talking about parent report cards.

The report card, had you read the premise of the thread, is to grade parents on their involvement on those things: tardies, absences, attending parent/teacher conferences, ensuring homework is completed.

[Arcanist]

I support a public education system for those whose parents can't/won't afford private school. However, I think that schools should recognize that not all students learn the same way and they should take that into account when teaching. Our kids are given a test to see how they learn (visually, verbally, etc) and then they are taught the way that works for them in elementary schools. The HS is working on implementing the same type of system.

Your question is inflammatory at best and ignorant at worst. No one wants any child damaged at least not intentionally however you can't prove that the majority of kids are harmed from a public education. Give it up already. You had a shitty school time, not everyone does.

If they leave the system as statists, then the damage is done. Do public schools even teach philosophy?

@Subgenius

We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. If the situation in Memphis is as you describe, in other words, riddled with corruption then I don't see any solution other than razing the system. That is preferable to funneling money into the pockets of crooked politicians and administrators. I would say rethink the entire concept of "education" but that is too big of an issue to cover at this time.

[Clueless]

Why be limited by what the state has chosen so far?

Best I could figure out, the topic of this thread was related to state action/potential action. I chose to bring in conversation about the actual actions of another state, foolishly hoping people here possessed sufficient intelligence to draw some parallels.


One does not follow from the other. I agree with your premise but you've yet to show that "recourse" to corporal punishment is the only viable alternative.

Where did you get the idea that I think it's the only viable alternative? I thought that I'd already offered an option to simply shoot children who misbehave.


Again, limiting. Why should it do what it used to do, instead of something else entirely?


I suppose we could advocate for the public education system to turn all enrolled children into rock stars, genies, or any number of other things. It seems foolish though.



My point was that your tactics aren't working, but they do reveal a limitation in your thinking. It's telling that you said:

You throw around the word "point" preceeded by a possessive pronoun. We must having differing definitions.



That you think insulting me is a valid or necessary tactic suggests that maybe the problem isn't that alternative methods of discourse and teaching don't work so much as that you are not able to understand them.

You're 100% correct in concluding that I don't understand you. I also don't understand serial killers, pedophiles, etc. Not certain this makes me stupid.


My position is that the system isn't inefficient, but unethical, and you're conflating the two.

Thanks for sharing that.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 05:50 PM ----------

Wrong it has to do with Memphis because Memphis is the one talking about parent report cards.

The report card, had you read the premise of the thread, is to grade parents on their involvement on those things: tardies, absences, attending parent/teacher conferences, ensuring homework is completed.

I understand the theory behind the report cards. It is borne of the incredibly arrogant position that everything public schools are doing to mentor children is 100% flawless, therefore if there are deficiencies they must reside with the parents.

What amazes me is that anyone can be so arrogant as to propose such a thing with a straight face.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 05:54 PM ----------

The same concept is being tossed around a little here in Texas. The Texas system is so flawless that better results were being achieved nearly 20 years ago.

But talk to an educator and you'll soon discover that everything the public school system has done has been an improvement. Parents on the other hand have changed for the worse. They'll tell you that with a straight face as well.

[vampyroteuthis]

Best I could figure out, the topic of this thread was related to state action/potential action. I chose to bring in conversation about the actual actions of another state, foolishly hoping people here possessed sufficient intelligence to draw some parallels.
Why limit yourself to those two options instead of considering non-corporal methods?

Where did you get the idea that I think it's the only viable alternative? I thought that I'd already offered an option to simply shoot children who misbehave.
Correction: why limit yourself to those three options instead of considering non-corporal methods?

I suppose we could advocate for the public education system to turn all enrolled children into rock stars, genies, or any number of other things. It seems foolish though.
Correction: why limit--
Well, they did allow me to be a fireman for a while. And a fish.

You throw around the word "point" preceeded by a possessive pronoun. We must having differing definitions.
Ok.

You're 100% correct in concluding that I don't understand you. I also don't understand serial killers, pedophiles, etc. Not certain this makes me stupid.
I am a non corporal method.

Thanks for sharing that.
You can have half of my sandwich too.

[JustMel]

If they leave the system as statists, then the damage is done. Do public schools even teach philosophy?

The ones I attended did as does the high school my kids have/will attend.

Clueless: It's not all arrogance. Despite what you think. It's a matter of "the schools say they've done all they can. The parents say they're doing all they can." Here's the only solution we can come up with to see where the problem really is. However, with Memphis City Schools it's not just a breakdown in communication it's a system breakdown. Complete failure. The schools are horrible, there aren't enough books to go around as it is, kids are dropping out, gangs are invading no matter how many cops/metal detectors they have because Memphis is a seriously poor city and it's primarily made up of welfare families. Even the families that have parents who are working 2 and 3 jobs are still below the poverty level and are getting some kind of assistance. Therefore, this is where they are attempting to start with a solution because begging parents to participate in children's schooling isn't working. A lot of the parents are dropouts and can't help their kids at home and don't have transportation to get them to afterschool tutoring, etc unless they take public transportation and with multiple children, little daycare, it's almost impossible. This is a crisis decades in the making.

[Arcanist]

The ones I attended did as does the high school my kids have/will attend.

Are they statists?

[Clueless]

Clueless: It's not all arrogance. Despite what you think.

You're more familiar with your own area than I. I'll defer to your view of your specific geography. The conditions you describe below are not present in many troubled schools here in Texas, definitely not in the ones with which I'm experienced and which were then the impetus for my own research.



It's a matter of "the schools say they've done all they can. The parents say they're doing all they can." Here's the only solution we can come up with to see where the problem really is. However, with Memphis City Schools it's not just a breakdown in communication it's a system breakdown. Complete failure. The schools are horrible, there aren't enough books to go around as it is, kids are dropping out, gangs are invading no matter how many cops/metal detectors they have because Memphis is a seriously poor city and it's primarily made up of welfare families. Even the families that have parents who are working 2 and 3 jobs are still below the poverty level and are getting some kind of assistance. Therefore, this is where they are attempting to start with a solution because begging parents to participate in children's schooling isn't working. A lot of the parents are dropouts and can't help their kids at home and don't have transportation to get them to afterschool tutoring, etc unless they take public transportation and with multiple children, little daycare, it's almost impossible. This is a crisis decades in the making.

The entire country is experiencing a crisis decades in the making, not just Memphis schools. The trouble is too few people realize it, others who do have no idea what the causes were and therefore none as to what the solutions may be.

You have folks like Vamp here who take an idealistic position against a measure such as corporal punishment, without any inkling as to what the greater evil may be.

Does it ever occur to these people that the world can be a vicious, cruel place? At what age would we have children begin to be clued-in on this reality?

Would it be better to have them understand that they can modify their own behavior and avoid excessively unpleasant consequences at a young age, or wait until the misbehavior has escalated to armed robbery to let them know that society will in fact levy a heavy penalty for socially unacceptable behavior?

Like it or not, believe it or not, some children do not respond to anything other than an intolerable consequence. I'm not going to have my 3 year-old be electrocuted by sticking a bobby-pin into a wall outlet because he failed to take my counsel seriously. I don't care if he's curious, if he understands electricity, if he thinks it might be fun.

After he's risen from "time-out" and/or "redirection" and "positive reinforcement", if he continues in his endeavor to explore the wall outlet with a metal object I will provide a deterrent that accomplishes my goal, which is his longer term safety. In the process he'll also learn that it can be extremely painful to continually defy those who have greater leverage. If I fail to teach him this secondary lesson and he's not intelligent enough to figure it out for himself, does anyone truly believe that strangers will be more forgiving than loved ones?

People amaze me. On the one hand they intellectualize human behavior to the nth degree, while on the other assigning no ability in others (outside themselves) to achieve nuanced understanding. The absolute that "violence" (there's that word) only teaches/reinforces violence is preposterous. Unless we are to assume Vamp is an extremely violent person. But, you're the exception aren't you Vamp?
All humans (not just you Vamp) are capable of nuanced understanding. Parents (and anyone acting in a parental capacity, i.e. grade school teachers) do a tremendous disservice by "giving up" when idealized methods fail. It's our responsibility to accomplish the task of rearing children to be functional, productive adults-whatever it takes. That means leaving no tools untried and progressing from least to most invasive in pursuit of this result.

It's very similar to triage. Assume a misbehaving (difficult) child is an extremity with a deep cut. If you apply a tourniquet you'll save the body (school) but lose the extremity. Do you apply the tourniquet anyway because philosophically you're OK with band-aids (the cut was too severe) but opposed to the application of pressure?

[vampyroteuthis]

People amaze me. On the one hand they intellectualize human behavior to the nth degree, while on the other assigning no ability in others (outside themselves) to achieve nuanced understanding. The absolute that "violence" (there's that word) only teaches/reinforces violence is preposterous. Unless we are to assume Vamp is an extremely violent person. But, you're the exception aren't you Vamp?
All humans (not just you Vamp) are capable of nuanced understanding. Parents (and anyone acting in a parental capacity, i.e. grade school teachers) do a tremendous disservice by "giving up" when idealized methods fail. It's our responsibility to accomplish the task of rearing children to be functional, productive adults-whatever it takes. That means leaving no tools untried and progressing from least to most invasive in pursuit of this result.

It's very similar to triage. Assume a misbehaving (difficult) child is an extremity with a deep cut. If you apply a tourniquet you'll save the body (school) but lose the extremity. Do you apply the tourniquet anyway because philosophically you're OK with band-aids (the cut was too severe) but opposed to the application of pressure?

No. I am saying (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) physical abuse does damage that no amount of good manners or schoolyard order makes okay. And I have been very polite.

Ugh.

[Clueless]

And just in case anyone missed it, what I'm saying is that child-rearing is the responsibility of EVERYONE who voluntarily chooses to be involved with children. There's no logic in one party refusing to perform based upon the personal opinion that another involved party is performing poorly.

If you're in a leaking boat, do you quit bailing because you feel others aren't bailing as well as they should or could?

If we can't develop a workable solution maybe we should begin academic education later in life. Wait and see whether the parents can provide a cooperative student before wasting public funds. That's more reasonable than pointing fingers.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 09:16 PM ----------

No. I am saying (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) physical abuse does damage that no amount of good manners or schoolyard order makes okay. And I have been very polite.

Ugh.

I am truly sorry you were abused. But all corporal punishment does not constitute abuse. In my view, even punishment that borders on physical abuse is preferable to the alternative of having children funneled into the prison system because we refuse to first try something less abusive than that.

[vampyroteuthis]

I am truly sorry you were abused. But all corporal punishment does not constitute abuse. In my view, even punishment that borders on physical abuse is preferable to the alternative of having children funneled into the prison system because we refuse to first try something less abusive than that.

Thank you for your concern. But a system that legitimizes corporal punishment lends itself quite smoothly to abuse glibly dismissed with lines about "a firm swat on the ass". The same glibness is one of the lessons learned as the normalized way to speak about it without worrying about placement in categories of strength based on damage done.

I see no reason to accept the shitty choice you set up, instead of discussing better possibilities that aren't already instantiated by the state. Child Education is a rich field.

[Clueless]

Thank you for your concern. But a system that legitimizes corporal punishment lends itself quite smoothly to abuse glibly dismissed with lines about "a firm swat on the ass". The same glibness is one of the lessons learned as the normalized way to speak about it without worrying about placement in categories of strength based on damage done.

I see no reason to accept the shitty choice you set up, instead of discussing better possibilities that aren't already instantiated by the state. Child Education is a rich field.

Again, in the meantime the show must go on. Until we have methods that eliminate the need for corporal punishment it stands as an option that is less abusive than one now being used instead.

I'm in favor of doing everything possible to save the child before relegating him to a life of incarceration.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 09:43 PM ----------

@ Vamp,

So should we ban all pain killers because they lend themselves well to abuse? Or is the legitimate beneficial use of painkillers something that is a net-positive for society?

[JustMel]

Are they statists?

Meaning are the public? Yes.

[Arcanist]

Meaning are the public? Yes.

No, that's not what I meant. But at this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. But I do ask that you at least consider the possibility that a highly structured, regimented environment is harmful to certain subsets of children.

[Subgenius]

If they leave the system as statists, then the damage is done. Do public schools even teach philosophy?

@Subgenius

We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. If the situation in Memphis is as you describe, in other words, riddled with corruption then I don't see any solution other than razing the system. That is preferable to funneling money into the pockets of crooked politicians and administrators. I would say rethink the entire concept of "education" but that is too big of an issue to cover at this time.

lol, good luck doing that with some of the families in control of Memphis.

[Arcanist]

lol, good luck doing that with some of the families in control of Memphis.

Well, if people accept the status quo, then they deserve what is happening to them. Some people just lurve being raped by politicos.

[Subgenius]

Eh, the families have been in power for a long time. The ancien riche are hard to root out of any city. They don't totally rape their citizenry either. Enough is given to keep them in power. There are benefits to backing the Ford family and others. Schools just aren't really one of them.

[vampyroteuthis]

Until we have methods
Are "we" limited to the methods of the state?

less abusive
Is "not abusive" too difficult?

save the child
Only from incarceration.

So should we ban all pain killers because they lend themselves well to abuse? Or is the legitimate beneficial use of painkillers something that is a net-positive for society?

Does corporal punishment benefit children?

[Clueless]

Are "we" limited to the methods of the state?

You've asked this question in one form or another many times. I'll tell you what, assume infinite possibilities and then go ahead and provide a list of your personal top 10.




Is "not abusive" too difficult?

nah, just too ineffective.


Only from incarceration. Unless you're typing from a prison cell, I'd say that's mighty courageous of you.


Does corporal punishment benefit children?

As a matter of fact there are some studies which indicate that it does. My personal belief is that there aren't any valid studies pro or con but hey, torture numbers.

[followthehippos]

Does corporal punishment benefit children?In the long term or short term?

[JustMel]

Clueless I don't have a problem with parents using corporal punishment when other methods haven't worked provided it's not excessive and it's not a daily occurrence. However, I do not like schools handing out corporal punishment because too many of them consider it a first line of defense and they can go overboard. While we still have corporal punishment in our schools they have to have parental consent. I do not give it. If they feel my child needs to be paddled then they can call me and I'll come to the school and listen to the situation and if a paddling is called for I will, and have, administered it.

[Subgenius]

I would love to see clueless try to enforce corporal punishment on a Gangsta Disciple, Blood, or Crip. I guess it would be MS13 in her neck of the woods, even though I guess Memphis is probably dealing with it too.

[Clueless]

Clueless I don't have a problem with parents using corporal punishment when other methods haven't worked provided it's not excessive and it's not a daily occurrence. However, I do not like schools handing out corporal punishment because too many of them consider it a first line of defense and they can go overboard. While we still have corporal punishment in our schools they have to have parental consent. I do not give it. If they feel my child needs to be paddled then they can call me and I'll come to the school and listen to the situation and if a paddling is called for I will, and have, administered it.

The problem with that approach is that it cripples the ability of public educators to maintain order over the entire classroom in that it leaves open the possibility of a child who responds only to CP and whose parents withold consent. Such a child soon realizes that the teacher has no meaningful (from the perspective of said child) authority.

Further, I disagree with your philosophy on logical grounds. One cannot abdicate the daily responsibility for child-rearing without granting full discretionary authority to those charged with the task. And before anyone gets all caught up in bullshit, does anyone truly believe that the "rearing" portion is in some sort of suspension for 8 hours a day? Until they're adults children require "parenting" 24/7, some simply have differing needs with regard to necessary methodology.

Finally, your approach is unrealistic. Many parents do not have the flexibility to be at the school unexpectedly and on short-notice.

---------- Post added 05-01-2012 at 10:16 PM ----------

I would love to see clueless try to enforce corporal punishment on a Gangsta Disciple, Blood, or Crip. I guess it would be MS13 in her neck of the woods, even though I guess Memphis is probably dealing with it too.

It wouldn't be a very interesting show. If you've seen one ass-whooping you've pretty much seen them all.

[JustMel]

They have the option of using other methods that are physical without using a paddle. I'm sorry, I wouldn't let a nanny use corporal punishment. No one spanks my kids except me or their dad. Period. Discretionary options? No. If I don't spank my children except as a last resort I'll not be allowing anyone else to use it as a first resort and some "educators" do use it as a first resort.

We had a principal who left bruises on a child from a paddling. Not going to happen with my kids.

At our middle school they encourage the teachers to use the arms out parallel to the floor while facing the wall or the invisible chair or push ups in class rather. All of those have proven to be successful, parents don't really have a way to complain because none of those things are physically harmful although uncomfortable and rather embarrassing to the student as they can take place in the classroom. If the child refuses then they are sent to the office and suspended for a day or the parents are called and given the option for a suspension or a paddling.

You seem to have a lot of ideas on parenting but I wonder how much is from actual practical application. Not all kids respond to corporal punishment. The majority of children that are past toddler age do not respond to corporal punishment because there are no long lasting effects. It's a spanking and in fifteen minutes it's a distant memory. If you give a kid a choice between a spanking or another form of punishment they're more likely to choose the one that is over the soonest hence the spanking. Give me my spanking and let me go back to what I was doing. We were in juvenile court with a client a couple of weeks ago and another mother was wailing "My baby my baby. It's not his fault." the judge asked then exactly whose fault was it and the woman replied "His daddy's for not spanking his butt." The judge raised an eyebrow and said "no, it's an all around lack of parenting that lead you to this point not simply refusing to spank your child." "Your honor his daddy said he wouldn't spank him anymore because it didn't work so I told him to spank him harder and he refused." The judge ordered the mother to parenting classes (I'll be seeing her in a few weeks) and ordered the child remanded to custody until the family meets with a counselor. The father told the judge that he had tried everything but if he grounded him the mother ungrounded him or let him out when he wasn't home and then when the kid got into additional trouble she screamed at him to spank him harder and he said he didn't see the point if it didn't work the first ten times. He said he didn't know what else to do.

A toddler getting a hand popped (although I tended to hold their hand and smack my own and the slapping sound got their attention) is one thing if it's a dangerous situation but beyond that it's pointless. If your child only responds to corporal punishment then there's a parenting failure. Now, if it's a last resort and the kids push to that point and it solves the issue it's not a parenting failure. My great-grandmother had a surefire way to break a child of temper tantrums. Some thought it unorthodox and some mean but it worked on every single kid she ever used it on and it didn't involve physically putting her hands or a belt on the child. Not that she balked at CP, she just tried to be more..... creative.