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View Full Version : INTJs, ESFPs, and Anoesis


Person056
04-15-2012, 04:19 PM
Anoesis: noun a state of mind consisting of pure sensation or emotion without cognitive content.

I figure this would be something very rare for an INTJ, especially with underdeveloped Fi and Se. I wonder if this is something comparable to how an ESFP is in their normal state of mind. Since INTJs are purely cognitive and ESFPs being our Anima, I would expect that Anoesis is very common for them.

the reason i am interested in this (apart from shear curiosity) is because i am trying to develop my slim-to-none Fi/Fe and Se. are there any ESFPs or strong Se/Fi users here that can attest to whether my hypothesis has any inherent truth to it or if i am completely wrong? is there anyone here that can help me understand the thought process that goes behind situations requiring Se or Fi?

mieu
04-15-2012, 05:30 PM
To say that Sensor-Feelers are primarily in a state of mind without cognition is really far from the truth, IMO. The two functions, combined, are how their cognitive processes gather and interpret stimuli and situations. They're the gateway and the interpreter. Feeling is their decision-making function, decision-making itself is a cognitive process.

Person056
04-15-2012, 05:39 PM
To say that Sensor-Feelers are primarily in a state of mind without cognition is really far from the truth, IMO. The two functions, combined, are how their cognitive processes gather and interpret stimuli and situations. They're the gateway and the interpreter. Feeling is their decision-making function, decision-making itself is a cognitive process.

though one might say that the ESFP mind isn't firing as vehemently as an INTJ's? i see what you mean and i should have worded it better. obviously they have cognitive processes. but i am wanting to know if they are in a state that is closer to anoesis. mind not being worked as hard = less processes happening = closer to being in anoesis = could slip into it much more frequently.

DeaconSyre
04-15-2012, 06:24 PM
I don't think the implied theory of mind behind anoesis is the same as the one proposed by MBTI. For instance, my emotions are part of my cognitive process so it's impossible to have emotions without cognitive content. That would be like saying anoesis is a state of pure emotion without emotion.

It's very zen and all, but it doesn't seem to fit with the model.

Person056
04-15-2012, 06:44 PM
I don't think the implied theory of mind behind anoesis is the same as the one proposed by MBTI. For instance, my emotions are part of my cognitive process so it's impossible to have emotions without cognitive content. That would be like saying anoesis is a state of pure emotion without emotion.

It's very zen and all, but it doesn't seem to fit with the model.

i never thought the definition would be taken so literally. i wonder if any NTs here other than me have even experienced this state of mind (state of mind, as in the mind/consciousness is still present)

perhaps your first kiss, or sexual encounter, or something similar. an event in which you are so overcome with emotion or sensation that there is no filter between perception and reaction. you have no thoughts, like how you have 100s or 1000s of dreams every night except you are only aware of maybe a couple, if any.

I would compare anoesis' effect on cognitive thought as making the conscious thought like unto a dream that one is not conscious of. it is a thought which is not conscious and the consequence is raw emotive response, maybe even thinking in emotion without language like someone who never learned a human language. does this make sense?

Bronk
04-15-2012, 06:58 PM
Would it be more accurate to say you are wondering what it is like to have your cognitive decisions be made solely with emotion and without logic (or as close to that balance as humanly possible)?

Fecal McAngry
04-15-2012, 07:01 PM
Anoesis: noun a state of mind consisting of pure sensation or emotion without cognitive content.

I figure this would be something very rare for an INTJ, especially with underdeveloped Fi and Se. I wonder if this is something comparable to how an ESFP is in their normal state of mind. Since INTJs are purely cognitive and ESFPs being our Anima, I would expect that Anoesis is very common for them.

the reason i am interested in this (apart from shear curiosity) is because i am trying to develop my slim-to-none Fi/Fe and Se. are there any ESFPs or strong Se/Fi users here that can attest to whether my hypothesis has any inherent truth to it or if i am completely wrong? is there anyone here that can help me understand the thought process that goes behind situations requiring Se or Fi?

As a dom Fi-er, I can probably help you with that function, though I'm not sure how. My Se, all other things being equal, is probably less developed that your own...

Person056
04-15-2012, 08:16 PM
Would it be more accurate to say you are wondering what it is like to have your cognitive decisions be made solely with emotion and without logic (or as close to that balance as humanly possible)?

while that is my goal, yes, i'm also very curious to see what other peoples experience is with anoesis, from the INTJs as well as the other types.

As a dom Fi-er, I can probably help you with that function, though I'm not sure how. My Se, all other things being equal, is probably less developed that your own...

it would be hard to explain something that happens so naturally for you. it would be like opening up a computer's shell and figuring out what each part does and how. i guess i should be asking what line of thought triggers you to "feel" and react to things with emotion; which situations make you feel what? i think that on the occasion i do react emotionally, i react with the wrong emotion.

ie. i just won a musicianship award for my individual performance at a festival including bands and choirs from at least 5-7 schools in North America. i won it for arranging a concerto and performing it from memory along with my HS's symphonic band and also having solos on 2 of the 4 instruments i played....in one song. all that, and i felt like shit because i thought i did a terrible job at performing. i don't care that it's only a HS level performance scale, i should be judged on a professional because anything short of perfect is unacceptable...for me at least. i'm very objective with others. i should have felt proud of myself, but i don't think i deserved it even though everyone around me thought i did.

in a cognitive function test my Fe and Se scored equally at 11% while surprisingly my Fi scored 44%. i'm not sure how accurate that last result really is. i have AS so that should explain a lot.

Laura C
04-19-2012, 02:07 PM
Decided to respond after pondering the meaning of anoesis for close to 3 days. Lol! I still don't really get it and I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but here goes... :curtain:

My mind goes into a state of total stillness and I just focus on task at hand when I:
- wash dishes, wash the car and other cleaning chores
- drive
- play MMORPG and games such as Diamond Dash and Bejeweled

I usually get into this mode when the basic game plan has been set and when it's routine maintenance activity that requires no further thinking. In the above activities, I usually feel really good afterwards especially from the cleaning chores and driving.

When I'm extremely stressed, my mind shuts down and I can get stuck in this state of pure sensation. The manifestation can be extreme, i.e. over-indulgence in activities such as playing games for long hours, over-eating, space out in front of the TV for long period, etc.

After the "phase" passes, I usually feel like crap and guilty because of time wasted, etc. So I've tried to curb extreme stress by working out in the gym - to me, this is a positive way to experience sensation and it restores balance to my system.

About ESFP:

I manifest ESFP traits, at times, in the following ways:
- consistently look for activities that are fun all the time so I can keep feeling thrilled
- consistently do things that make me feel good all the time and ignore those that do not
- jumping from one fun thing to another without fully experiencing/finishing each of them (read: flighty)
- over-optimism (read: no worries, everything will work out great)
- over-enthusiastic, high energy level and zest for life "live for the moment"

During these times, the thought process is pretty much "looking for the next fun thing so I can keep experiencing the thrill". It makes me feel like Jekyll & Hyde at times so I've always been puzzled by it. I read somewhere that some of these indicate the "stressed INTJ" mode.

Sidetracking, I've tested as Enneagram Type 7w8. Type 7 happens to be the most common among ESFP. Not sure if this could be the reason (it could be that I was in "stressed INTJ" mode when I took the Enneagram test or it could be that because of my Enneagram type, I tend to exhibit these ESFP-like traits more often than other INTJs).

Do anyone of you INTJs experience this?

@Person056 (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Just a thought, you might want to take a look at PerC's ESFP forum to see if there is any threads on how they see things, etc.

Person056
04-19-2012, 10:24 PM
Decided to respond after pondering the meaning of anoesis for close to 3 days. Lol! I still don't really get it and I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but here goes... :curtain:

it is a hard concept to wrap one's mind around and i think you can only understand it if you've experienced it and even then it may be hard to recognize unless it's happened very recently (weeks, maybe)

My mind goes into a state of total stillness and I just focus on task at hand when I:
- wash dishes, wash the car and other cleaning chores
- drive
- play MMORPG and games such as Diamond Dash and Bejeweled

I usually get into this mode when the basic game plan has been set and when it's routine maintenance activity that requires no further thinking. In the above activities, I usually feel really good afterwards especially from the cleaning chores and driving.

this is close to the definition and it is a distinct state of consciousness but not quite "anoesis" in fact, i've only ever experienced the sensation i'm talking about twice in my life which would probably mean the same for others here. maybe a couple more times in people who are older than me for the reason that they have had more life experiences.

When I'm extremely stressed, my mind shuts down and I can get stuck in this state of pure sensation. The manifestation can be extreme, i.e. over-indulgence in activities such as playing games for long hours, over-eating, space out in front of the TV for long period, etc.

i'm not sure if it could be that long. i think you're thinking it's when you go brain dead and you become detached from reality, cerebral. instead, anoesis is the opposite: when you are hyperaware of reality. so much so that how you emotionally react completely drowns out how you cognitively react.

the first time i experienced it was before my first kiss. we were both just laying next to each other, i was holding her in my arms. then...it just happened. i was just overcome with emotion. i didn't think about kissing her. i didn't even know i wanted to. my emotions took over my brain and made me kiss her, coincidentally the same thing must have happened for her at the same time because we both started towards each other in unison.

the second time: with another girl i was trying to repress my feelings for i was sitting next to her in the stands at a HS football game (we were in marching band so we played in the stands). i was staring off into the distance trying to ignore her presence so i didn't let my wall of denial break down. at some point she turned to me (i was freaking out on the inside, it probably showed on the outside too) and she asked me what was wrong. i was at a loss for words, i couldn't tell her i still loved her (long complicated history. we never were together and she knew i used to love her but just didn't think i still did). i couldn't get a word out, i couldn't speak. i wanted to hold back but a nerve broke and the floodgates opened. there wasn't a single word running through my mind, my body (of its own accord) jumped at her and i found myself with my arms latched around her waist and my head buried in her arm. i must have lasted only 30 seconds, i guess. i didn't even realize what happened until she asked me to let go. at which point i released a stream of "I'm sorry!"s and i practically broke down in tears.

About ESFP:

I manifest ESFP traits, at times, in the following ways:
- consistently look for activities that are fun all the time so I can keep feeling thrilled
- consistently do things that make me feel good all the time and ignore those that do not
- jumping from one fun thing to another without fully experiencing/finishing each of them (read: flighty)
- over-optimism (read: no worries, everything will work out great)
- over-enthusiastic, high energy level and zest for life "live for the moment"

During these times, the thought process is pretty much "looking for the next fun thing so I can keep experiencing the thrill". It makes me feel like Jekyll & Hyde at times so I've always been puzzled by it. I read somewhere that some of these indicate the "stressed INTJ" mode.

Sidetracking, I've tested as Enneagram Type 7w8. Type 7 happens to be the most common among ESFP. Not sure if this could be the reason (it could be that I was in "stressed INTJ" mode when I took the Enneagram test or it could be that because of my Enneagram type, I tend to exhibit these ESFP-like traits more often than other INTJs).

Do anyone of you INTJs experience this?

no, but i think i should try to. thank's for the insight.

@Person056 (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Just a thought, you might want to take a look at PerC's ESFP forum to see if there is any threads on how they see things, etc.

good suggestion, i will make it a point to wonder over there at some point. to go where no INTJ has gone before... lol

Laura C
04-20-2012, 12:38 AM
i'm not sure if it could be that long. i think you're thinking it's when you go brain dead and you become detached from reality, cerebral. instead, anoesis is the opposite: when you are hyperaware of reality. so much so that how you emotionally react completely drowns out how you cognitively react.

Basically acting on a whim, no?

the first time i experienced it was before my first kiss. we were both just laying next to each other, i was holding her in my arms. then...it just happened. i was just overcome with emotion. i didn't think about kissing her. i didn't even know i wanted to. my emotions took over my brain and made me kiss her, coincidentally the same thing must have happened for her at the same time because we both started towards each other in unison.

the second time: with another girl i was trying to repress my feelings for i was sitting next to her in the stands at a HS football game (we were in marching band so we played in the stands). i was staring off into the distance trying to ignore her presence so i didn't let my wall of denial break down. at some point she turned to me (i was freaking out on the inside, it probably showed on the outside too) and she asked me what was wrong. i was at a loss for words, i couldn't tell her i still loved her (long complicated history. we never were together and she knew i used to love her but just didn't think i still did). i couldn't get a word out, i couldn't speak. i wanted to hold back but a nerve broke and the floodgates opened. there wasn't a single word running through my mind, my body (of its own accord) jumped at her and i found myself with my arms latched around her waist and my head buried in her arm. i must have lasted only 30 seconds, i guess. i didn't even realize what happened until she asked me to let go. at which point i released a stream of "I'm sorry!"s and i practically broke down in tears.


Sneaky! :p If you put it in such context, then definitely yes but I'm not sharing any further. Hehehe!

Fecal McAngry
04-20-2012, 01:01 AM
it would be hard to explain something that happens so naturally for you. it would be like opening up a computer's shell and figuring out what each part does and how. i guess i should be asking what line of thought triggers you to "feel" and react to things with emotion; which situations make you feel what? i think that on the occasion i do react emotionally, i react with the wrong emotion.

ie. i just won a musicianship award for my individual performance at a festival including bands and choirs from at least 5-7 schools in North America. i won it for arranging a concerto and performing it from memory along with my HS's symphonic band and also having solos on 2 of the 4 instruments i played....in one song. all that, and i felt like shit because i thought i did a terrible job at performing. i don't care that it's only a HS level performance scale, i should be judged on a professional because anything short of perfect is unacceptable...for me at least. i'm very objective with others. i should have felt proud of myself, but i don't think i deserved it even though everyone around me thought i did.


Remember, I'm an INFP--an Fi dom. The notion of "the wrong emotion" sounds as if you're using Fe-criteria as a basis for judgement. If you want that, go here:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. or here: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(Oddly enough, while Fe-dom types are generally very good at producing the "appropriate" emotional response at the "appropriate" types, they sometimes falter when the unexpected happens, causing them to actually feel things they struggle to express. For example, ENFJ Paul McCartney's response to INFP John Lennon's murder got him in some trouble:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

But anyway, getting back to you--the example you site is a perfect instance of how Fi works--particularly in an INFP such as myself. You were measuring your performance against your hypothetical ideal, and it fell far short of your vision, so you were none too enthused about the result. Others with no such preconceptions saw/heard what was actually there, and were more positive...

Fi takes external events/actions/appearances or internal thoughts/processes and measures them for harmony or disharmony with the user's inner ideals...those of others are neither here nor there, although Fi-users typically wish to be valued by others, provided they can do so without compromising Fi-values.

INFP Gary Oldman: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Lennon: "I always was a rebel...but on the other hand, I wanted to be loved and accepted...and not just be a loudmouth, lunatic, poet, musician. But I cannot be what I am not."

I suspect Fi, for an INTJ "feels" much like Fi does for me, only in muted form. To develop, you might wish to ask yourself more frequently, what is my (personal) valuation of "this", whatever "this" is...

Numbers
04-20-2012, 01:20 AM
I've been that way before. A few times during sex, it's truly amazing. I could give details but the long and veiny of it is, you DON'T know what you're doing, it's like being on a dam when the water breaks, once it happens, you just hold the fuck on.(pun absolutely intended) BTW, I'm not talking about climaxing either, just a period of time during actual sex. The only way to compare is drunk sex, you're not really thinking to cognitively at that point either.

Laura C
04-20-2012, 03:45 AM
instead, anoesis is the opposite: when you are hyperaware of reality. so much so that how you emotionally react completely drowns out how you cognitively react.

Just went for a drive and I thought the closest thing to anoesis for me would driving given the hyper-awareness of concrete surroundings and action driven by this awareness instead of logical thoughts. It's green light, go. Slow driver in front, overtake. Just do and no "okay, I should do this and that or should I overtake or stay in this lane, etc". Hmm, this is starting to make me sound like a dangerous driver... :p

And just did a bit of digging around and found this additional information on its origin (I'm sure you already know this). I'm still trying my head around this topic.

Origin:
Anoesis is derived from the Greek word noesis meaning reason or intellect and the prefix a- meaning not. Thus it means, no reason.

Fi takes external events/actions/appearances or internal thoughts/processes and measures them for harmony or disharmony with the user's inner ideals...those of others are neither here nor there, although Fi-users typically wish to be valued by others, provided they can do so without compromising Fi-values.

I suspect Fi, for an INTJ "feels" much like Fi does for me, only in muted form. To develop, you might wish to ask yourself more frequently, what is my (personal) valuation of "this", whatever "this" is...

@Fecal McAngry (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

I agree with you on the above. And personally, yes Fi is rather muted for me until recent months. Care to walk us through your decision-making process, if you don't mind?

Person056
04-20-2012, 12:57 PM
I've been that way before. A few times during sex, it's truly amazing. I could give details but the long and veiny of it is, you DON'T know what you're doing, it's like being on a dam when the water breaks, once it happens, you just hold the fuck on.(pun absolutely intended) BTW, I'm not talking about climaxing either, just a period of time during actual sex. The only way to compare is drunk sex, you're not really thinking to cognitively at that point either.

Although I'm a virgin, I would have imagined that this scenario would provoke anoesis. It appears my predictions were true.

Drunken seems like another good adjective to describe it.

Another scenario I went into anoesis is when (on the rare occasion) I am so confident of what I'm playing in a musical performance that I can become overwhelmed with adrenaline and it takes me over. This mostly happens when I'm playing guitar....which now that I mention it, adrenaline is another cause or way of looking at it.

fsmo
04-20-2012, 05:04 PM
The definition of anoesis seems to point to truly being present and in the moment. Experiencing that and nothing else, allowing yourself to be lost in it, without judgment. I have had these moments. I donít think it is particular to a temperament type though. Even sensor-feelers can have trouble letting go and really allowing themselves to be taken by an experience, although it might be easier for them to get to that point than us.

My boyfriend of 5 years is ESFP. I donít think he lives in anoesis but he does tend to be more spontaneous and enjoy whatís here and now more than I do, so in that way itís similar. But he isnít without cognitive content while heís doing those things. However I have had those moments with him and he does seem to bring it out in me.

@Laura C
Yes, I get in stressed mode as well and do the same things, game, watch TV, pick up and/or clean, etc. Iím still not good at taking time for myself so I end up in this place probably more than I should. For so long Iíve been taught that isolating myself is a bad thing that Iíve ignored my needs as an introvert. I'm still trying to find balance. I only learned about being an introvert a little over a year ago, and ran in to MBTI as a result of my search for more information a few months ago.

SarcasticVlad
04-20-2012, 05:15 PM
If I even understand what this is (and I probably don't), I think I've experienced it once. Believe it or not when I was playing Counter Strike a couple of years ago. What happened was basically the moment of complete concentration. No thinking involved, just pure instinct taking over. I was moving with surgical precision from place to place lining up perfect shots and it was all happening so fast I didn't even have the time to think about what I was doing. But I didn't make a single mistake. Then the round ended and that superpower was taken away from me. I want it back.