What is the role of the loving partner? (girls)

[changos]

Male INTJ here. After many unsatisfying experiences I try to carefully choose my friends (girlfriends), but hard as I try it seems I'm on a dead end or expecting too much. Keep in mind I'm an INTJ (read the bold text before saying I'm the equations failure)

The story: I meet a girl, become friends then a relationship comes. I've been told I'm a great friend and partner, I commit. I remember dates, events, problems, dreams and goals. I "connect" and they feel connected both emotional and affective. When X problem comes (not with me) I'm there for support, advice, understanding, hearing, acting, whatever. I receive very positive feedback on my acting there. This can go on many times. Even after the relationship ends, they accept I was really there doing my part. After several relationships, some hold a desire to get back with me.

The problem is... what's her (their) role on the relationship? (please keep reading) When I'm concerned, troubled, down... whatever, all I hear is:


(silence) which I take as indifference
I know you'll find a way out
I wish I knew how to help you but I can't
I would like to know, how or what to say to make things better, but I can't
I hope you get better
You probably need sometime alone, let me know how it goes
Ohhh, I'm sorry, but don't worry, things will get better. Ok, lets go to the movies!

-------------------------------

So, basically I'm there when they need me, but when I need support I'm on my own. Worst of all I don't even find respect on such responses, not a connection.

This is not a "self pity" thread. I just don't get it. I know I'm very independent and after many tries I was thinking "I seem too far away", closed... so I started opening more and more... but it made no difference communicating clearly how I felt many times. Even asking directly for support.

What is the role of my girlfriend? being pretty? sitting on her butt all day like a cat licking herself to stay clean and pretty? dreaming about unreal things all day? a machine of "I want this and that"?? or is the sex and "company" enough?

I've researched about many many things... I avoid codependency, relationships of savior->saved-cry-for-help, father-daughter. I want an adult with me but it seems I failed.

After struggling on my search for others with more experience and years of life for advice all I have found is responses like "I know what you said, but it won't get any better..." or "you better get used to".

Most of the times if they feel bad they won't even know why, or if they have a bad face and I ask, sometimes I get more upset after hearing the little things that cloud their days compared to "adult stuff".

It seems more and more to me that very FEW people are complete, satisfied with their partners. Does it goes like this with you????

Not feeling really good right now to read the "You have been with the wrong people", please keep those words to yourself if you think like this. No mean any disrespect for the girls

[Thrifty]

You need emotional support? What kind of INTJ are you?

The role of a girlfriend is not pre-established. I suppose you could think of an ideal girlfriend, but ideals are subjective. I've been there where you are now and I can tell you that if it doesn't do it for you, move on.

[seoa]

Not feeling really good right now to read the "You have been with the wrong people", please keep those words to yourself if you think like this.
of course you haven't been with the *wrong* girls up until now.... you've been with girls who you've had reasonable relationships with (they clearly had their good points, or you wouldn't have gone beyond being friends)....

you say you've sorted out how to get past the "just friends" stage... many guys would be jealous just about that...

you say you're being careful not to get into saviour /father mode in relationships - that's clearly really important, in getting a good adult balance...

but *without* saying that you've been with the wrong girls up until now, it's still true that you might want to look for some (slightly?) different criteria in the future... there's not really enough detail here to be really prescriptive (and hey, who wants prescription in relationships anyway :)) but maybe you need to focus a bit more on finding some extra N in your next relationship.... maybe NF.... coz it sounds like you've been dealing with girls without much in the way of intuition....

alternatively, maybe the girls were intimidated somehow by the traditional INTJ "wall", and were trying to offer what they thought that *you* wanted ("back off, give me space to work out my stuff") rather than what they would intuitively offer if left to themselves.... when you say you opened up more, do you think they understood that you wanted them to breach your wall, or is it possible they recognised that you were already pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, and didn't want to push you even further...?? of course, this could be wildly off - i'm not working from very much data here...

but ultimately, sounds like you've been putting a lot of effort into laying the foundations for a healthy relationship... that's absolutely not wasted.... it will come into its own when you meet the girl who's a better fit for you than the ones you've been with before (and that's not a dig - someone who's right for you at a certain point in your life might not have been so great a few years before... timing plays just as much a part as everything else!)


seoa added to this post, 6 minutes and 14 seconds later...

Most of the times if they feel bad they won't even know why
oh, just seen this sentence (must have missed it the first read-thru)... i tend more towards my first theory (need more N) than the second....

[mkay]

When people develop patterns in the people they date -- in your case unsupportive girlfriends -- I figure they have some kind of issue(s) that they might not be aware of, that they are subconsciously choosing badly.

An example: My brother was very eligible but kept running into relationship problems. I pointed out that he seemed to be replaying childhood, dating women who had issues and trying to make them happy. The women were very different on the surface, but essentially they were like our mother -- troubled and unhappy. My brother didn't realize he was trying to "fix" things and subconsciously picking such women. The women weren't capable of giving him what he gave in equal measure; they couldn't even be happy on their own, so how could they have a healthy relationship?

I figure if there's a pattern, there's a reason. Once my brother realized the pattern (he said no way when I initially pointed it out), he spent a couple of years alone and worked on his own issues. He started picking women differently. Since then, he's married someone great and emotionally healthy.

There are lots of emotionally unhealthy people in the world. I think if you're healthy, it's better to be alone than to settle for anyone who isn't. And I think if you're healthy, it's very easy to weed out the bad ones.

[ScurvyRose]

Male INTJ here. After many unsatisfying experiences I try to carefully choose my friends (girlfriends), but hard as I try it seems I'm on a dead end or expecting too much. Keep in mind I'm an INTJ (read the bold text before saying I'm the equations failure)

The story: I meet a girl, become friends then a relationship comes. I've been told I'm a great friend and partner, I commit. I remember dates, events, problems, dreams and goals. I "connect" and they feel connected both emotional and affective. When X problem comes (not with me) I'm there for support, advice, understanding, hearing, acting, whatever. I receive very positive feedback on my acting there. This can go on many times. Even after the relationship ends, they accept I was really there doing my part. After several relationships, some hold a desire to get back with me.

The problem is... what's her (their) role on the relationship? (please keep reading) When I'm concerned, troubled, down... whatever, all I hear is:


(silence) which I take as indifference
I know you'll find a way out
I wish I knew how to help you but I can't
I would like to know, how or what to say to make things better, but I can't
I hope you get better
You probably need sometime alone, let me know how it goes
Ohhh, I'm sorry, but don't worry, things will get better. Ok, lets go to the movies!

-------------------------------

So, basically I'm there when they need me, but when I need support I'm on my own. Worst of all I don't even find respect on such responses, not a connection.

This is not a "self pity" thread. I just don't get it. I know I'm very independent and after many tries I was thinking "I seem too far away", closed... so I started opening more and more... but it made no difference communicating clearly how I felt many times. Even asking directly for support.

What is the role of my girlfriend? being pretty? sitting on her butt all day like a cat licking herself to stay clean and pretty? dreaming about unreal things all day? a machine of "I want this and that"?? or is the sex and "company" enough?

I've researched about many many things... I avoid codependency, relationships of savior->saved-cry-for-help, father-daughter. I want an adult with me but it seems I failed.

After struggling on my search for others with more experience and years of life for advice all I have found is responses like "I know what you said, but it won't get any better..." or "you better get used to".

Most of the times if they feel bad they won't even know why, or if they have a bad face and I ask, sometimes I get more upset after hearing the little things that cloud their days compared to "adult stuff".

It seems more and more to me that very FEW people are complete, satisfied with their partners. Does it goes like this with you????

Not feeling really good right now to read the "You have been with the wrong people", please keep those words to yourself if you think like this. No mean any disrespect for the girls

Ok, ditto but change the guy to girl, and gf to bf!

I am really starting to think the relationship problems stem from our tendency to see a potential issue, or a slacking effort to reciprocate, mention it is a conversation, expect to have a response and possibly a discussion on that particular element leading to it's resolution. Also, the need to set a plan of action into place. The result we obtain is that we are seen as being critical, insensitive, demanding, whatever.

Perhaps the trick is to find someone who can at least compromise and be able to have the communication and needs compromise go both ways in flux.

(not that it has worked for me, but I am still trying!)

[Uytuun]

I object to the notion of a "girlfriend role", but anyway, I was wondering what it is specifically that you would like her to do...

[Jenny Penny]

There are lots of emotionally unhealthy people in the world. I think if you're healthy, it's better to be alone than to settle for anyone who isn't. And I think if you're healthy, it's very easy to weed out the bad ones.

This is so true and wise. Not to say that I'm "healthy" but I was far healthier than my past boyfriends. I would try to change them and make excuses for them, all because I mistook chemistry for love.

That's great that your brother was able to recognize his pattern and turn it around. Time for me to do the same!

[Noehelia]

Well, I do not know you but I will talk about my relation with my INTJ boyfriend. I can not provide him the support that I would like to because he doesn't let me. If I'll say that I am sorry and try to deal with his emotions he will say that I pity him, if I will try to be objective and show him other perspectives, he gets irritated, if I start questions trying to unravel why he feels like the way he does he is annoyed (because he doesn't like anyone scooping in his hidden thoughts and inner emotions) and he backs off.
It's not that I do not do anything, I try, but I am not doing what I am used to with others. So I try subtle ways, like saying to him that I believe in him, that I know he is capable of sorting it out. Why isn't that support? You raise his moral, you show that you admire him and even more you try to show him that you care (even if he doesn't accept it).
What I am trying to say is to look at your behavior. Are you the one that set to them how they are going to treat you?

[NephilimAzrael]

Interesting.
I know what you mean, but in the past few relationships I have been in, I state outright what I desire when it comes to support and requirements in my relationships. Although I have had trouble when the person in question mistakes this for my dry humour.
State clearly what it is that you wish to address and make certain they recognise it as such, a problem that needs addressing.

[L30]

You expect too much from your women, OP. You want to make everything of them. But a woman is a woman... she's not a living piece of furniture like cats, but neither she's an all-purpose being. Keep her for the good times, when you are up and want to have fun. But for counseling and problem solving, go to a good male friend.
The supporting role in a relationship belongs naturally to you, the man, but only if and when you choose to be in this role, and only for a woman of obvious great value.

[Darkmist]

My son, also INTJ suffered from exactly your problems. During high school he was ditched over and over again for one night stands and was told that he is too quiet and nice, and that women like bad boys. Now he has found himself an ENFP woman and they mesh. Thus far anyway (who ever knows?), things seem to be going Ok. In my opinion, you know when it's right enough to bother. If you're doing it just because, then it's not.





Darkmist added to this post, 5 minutes and 10 seconds later...

You expect too much from your women, OP. You want to make everything of them. But a woman is a woman... she's not a living piece of furniture like cats, but neither she's an all-purpose being. Keep her for the good times, when you are up and want to have fun. But for counseling and problem solving, go to a good male friend.
The supporting role in a relationship belongs naturally to you, the man, but only if and when you choose to be in this role, and only for a woman of obvious great value.

Huh support going to the man? I am the support in my relationship. Women in general are the peacekeepers and men are the shit disturbers. Sorry bud, but my man doesn't say sorry, he waits for reconciliaition from me, no matter who is at fault. Whatever world you live in, I want property. I have a dream of hearing a kind word now and again. Sigh.

All purpose human being? Support from male friend?

I suspect a troll. (Though my bother in law, also ISTP treats women like dirt also)

Did I say bother in law? Perhaps that is what I meant.

[OneHertz]

OP: You outlined the exact reason I have left my last relationship. I felt as if I was helping her out a lot on all her major decisions, but she had nothing to help me with. It is not that she did not want to, she did, but she had very little life experience in comparison to me so she could never say anything useful.

I suppose emotional support can be important, but very few types can actually provide that properly. ESFJ comes to mind.

[methionine]

I never really thought about a specific girlfriend role... but I'm with another INTJ (or at least an introverted intuitive; I'm actually not sure about what he is) and when he has something on his mind he doesn't always tell me about what it is. I tell him that if he wants to talk, he is welcome to, and then leave him alone... It's a new relationship so I can't say much about whether this will become routine or a problem or anything, though. I feel like if I try too hard to ask him questions he'd just get irritated, but I try to make it clear that if he ever wants to talk I'd be more than happy to listen. I probably won't be able to solve his problems, but that's definitely not what a girlfriend is for in my opinion.. For me, it's more of just having somebody to talk to openly with everything and anything; someone you just really feel a lot of affection for. :P
As for me, when I have things on my mind, I usually choose to tell him about it, even though I know he can't really "do" much about it... just mostly like any other friend, except sometimes I'm even more open than usual, I guess. He's also pretty gentle with it and welcomes me to stop talking about it if I don't want to.

Overall, this system works out fine for me, though because I place intimacy very high on the importance scale concerning relationships, I sometimes feel a tinge of disappointment (this isn't exactly the right word, but I hope you know what I mean) when he doesn't want to say anything about his concerns... it makes me feel like I can't help him, period, and I actually really want to support him in whatever he does.

-INxJ female.

[Grizzly]

been on the same quest myself so i can only offer what bounces around in my head.

i think it depends on the role they want you for and the role you want them for.

Ive seen some very successful relationships where the female is the cat, there for company and sex, eventually child rearing. Also seen relationships where the gender roles are switched.

In my current relationship I am somewhat the father figure, but definitly dominant party when it comes to business or serious issues. Though she is the dominant party during social situations.

If I'm feeling down my girlfriend tends to act as the sounding board for my ideas, or the one asking questions that I might not have thought of. But she also tries to take my mind off whatever problem is bothering me.

[intj5784]

or is the sex and "company" enough?

the sex is enough for me.;) i'd be there for her but don't really need her to be there for me. i don't like being seen when i'm down.

[L30]

Huh support going to the man? I am the support in my relationship. Women in general are the peacekeepers and men are the shit disturbers. Sorry bud, but my man doesn't say sorry, he waits for reconciliaition from me, no matter who is at fault. Whatever world you live in, I want property. I have a dream of hearing a kind word now and again. Sigh.
All purpose human being? Support from male friend?
I suspect a troll. (Though my bother in law, also ISTP treats women like dirt also)
Did I say bother in law? Perhaps that is what I meant.
Maybe I'm just another ISTP who treats women like shit then :)
I just wanted to suggest to the OP that, for a man, male friends are more indicated for counseling on personal or work problems and general emotional support.
Leaving one's own problems out of the couple makes couple life so nicer :*
(PS: notice that the opposite is NOT true, I'm NOT implying that women shouldn't talk to their partners about problems in their life... on the contrary, if the man is able to manage his own stuff by himself, he will also be more ready to patiently do the "listening" thing that all women always want)

the sex is enough for me. i'd be there for her but don't really need her to be there for me. i don't like being seen when i'm down.
This is also what I meant.
I feel bad in the simple *thought* of being down around my gf.

[OneHertz]

-INFJ female.

fixed

[Danisty]

Leaving one's own problems out of the couple makes couple life so nicer :*
(PS: notice that the opposite is NOT true, I'm NOT implying that women shouldn't talk to their partners about problems in their life... on the contrary, if the man is able to manage his own stuff by himself, he will also be more ready to patiently do the "listening" thing that all women always want)Wow, I completely disagree with this and I don't think it's just because I'm an INTJ woman. If my partner can't or won't talk to me about problems they're having, there is no point in having a relationship in the first place.

[Jenny Penny]

There is a fine line about how much to talk about one's personal problems in a relationship. I think it's very important that both partners feel like the other is there for them and will help them through their difficulties. When the difficulties become perpetual, the person in the therapist role may start to resent it. I definitely want to see my boyfriend as a logical problem solver and one that does not need constant reassurance. However, I want him to know that I am there when he wants to talk and I will be there 100% with advice or just to listen without judgment, whatever he needs. I will ask what he needs if I'm not sure.

[curiousjane]

changos, are you going through a personal crisis of sorts?

If so, I'd say she needs to listen, care, and do what she can. I understand the "I don't know how to help you" comment, because I feel the same way, sometimes. I mean, you guys are so self-sufficient and capable ... how can we help other than to be loving, supportive, and give you guys great backrubs when you're stressed out?

Otherwise, my opinion of what a girlfriend should do is exactly what a friend should do. Be supportive, care, remember important events/dates/likes/dislikes, challenge, encourage, argue when necessary, and, of course ... love you. Physical attraction is pretty important, too! ;)

[changos]

I have read all and each one of your replies, thank you very much. I was answering one by one but the following seems better to me:

Curiousjane, you talk exactly about what I mean.

I truly believe that a “servant, lady, knight” can become a queen-king, but that doesn’t mean he or she should refuse to do the noble acts that made him-her king or queen. At this point it would be like winning a noble prize and then being unable to solve the problems you could solve in the past. Only a fool can expect being treated like a queen-king if all he-she can do is to sit on the throne… and only a bigger fool can make a queen-king out of such being.

Some fall in love and marriage a woman just by the “princess” she is right now, but fail to see the bitter useless queen she would become even as if others do see this and tell him (he refuses to accept it and thinks she would change or… he can manage it). We fail at thinking that ONE can actually manage most of the aspects of a relationship of two putting more and more effort on the areas she lacks knowledge or support. At first is ok as the relationship is also about compensation between the two, but this scenario I talk about becomes the savior or helper relationship where there are no two whole persons, but one always sustaining the other one.

Per example, a girl could appreciate a good chef, but she refuses to cook? Or can’t cook? Instead the so hated “anti-macho” movement is making the girls to expect from us to do their job while they sleep tight.

You could have a HUGE problem where your girl can’t help, but she at least can make coffee to help you stay late, there is no need for her to stay up until 4:00AM, because pretty sure to see her support you would say “is ok, go to bed”, but the act of support is appreciated. Nowadays some just say “I know I can’t help, so I’ll go to bed, I’m pretty sure you can work it out”. But this doesn’t show her knowledge of your abilities or her faith in you, instead it shows lack of emotional connection and support, laziness.

This things could require examples but I don’t think so. Instead the previous example could be seen wrong too. But WTF… life sucks when the problems comes, so you better find somebody whose shoulder is there for you as you have yours for her.

At the end I think some are just lucky to understand how ugly life could get, so a pretty face is not enough anymore. The sad thing is, the more I talk to girls and guys about this, the more it is obvious we both need and ask the same things, but why some people dare to ask but refuse to give?

What does this have to do with the original post? That there while this or other intjs (guys) might appear fine on girls radar, this girls at the end have huge cc debts, nothing to offer and can’t cook, commit or make an emotional connection… is all about their needs!!!

At the end there are two groups, guys who do anything to get laid with their princess and expect little from them and the other group, the guys who go on dates and do well, but won’t invite the girl to a third or fourth date… is just boring. Sadly there seems to be little variety of options for us to choose from.

I expect exactly what curiousjane said, not less. Also expect not abusing from the “I would like to know how but I don’t”. Perhaps part of the lyrics of Bent from MB 20 can explain it better.

If I fall along the way
Pick me up and dust me off
And if I get too tired to make it
Be my breath so I can walk

If I need some other love
Give me more than I can stand
And when my smile gets old and faded
Wait around I'll smile again

Shouldn't be so complicated
Just hold me and then
Just hold me again

Can you help me I'm bent
I'm so scared that I'll never
Get put back together

You're breaking me in
And this is how we will end
With you and me bent

If I couldn't sleep could you sleep
Could you paint me better off
Could you sympathize with my needs
I know you think I need a lot

[ricearoni]

The problem is... what's her (their) role on the relationship? (please keep reading) When I'm concerned, troubled, down... whatever, all I hear is:


(silence) which I take as indifference
I know you'll find a way out
I wish I knew how to help you but I can't
I would like to know, how or what to say to make things better, but I can't
I hope you get better
You probably need sometime alone, let me know how it goes
Ohhh, I'm sorry, but don't worry, things will get better. Ok, lets go to the movies!

-------------------------------

So, basically I'm there when they need me, but when I need support I'm on my own. Worst of all I don't even find respect on such responses, not a connection.

Is it possible that the problem is that we all have different ways of showing that we care? To me, all those responses are like two sides of the same coin. I can think of times when a silent presence was far more comforting than words, but I can also think of times when the silence just made things even worse. Even the last response (which btw sounds absolutely horrible) has some merit, because distracting a person from worrying will at least make them happy for a short while.

But deciding which response or reaction is appropriate for a situation isn't easy for everyone. Some people have a knack for it and others just plain suck at it...that doesn't mean that they don't care. But then again, I don't know what you're exes were like...


This is not a "self pity" thread. I just don't get it. I know I'm very independent and after many tries I was thinking "I seem too far away", closed... so I started opening more and more... but it made no difference communicating clearly how I felt many times. Even asking directly for support.

I've dated a guy like that. I've realized that if they don't make an effort after I've said something, they're just a waste of time.


What is the role of my girlfriend? being pretty? sitting on her butt all day like a cat licking herself to stay clean and pretty? dreaming about unreal things all day? a machine of "I want this and that"?? or is the sex and "company" enough?

I kind of think a girlfriend would be a cross between a best friend and a passionate lover. Someone who admires you and supports/helps you accomplish your goals, but also wants to jump your bones.

[curiousjane]

Changos, some of even the most worthy of women have credit card debt. I do. It's not something I'm proud of. But it was necessary to survive (in other words, I didn't get it by going on shopping sprees, but by paying for gas, car repairs, bills, etc. when I was under-paid or unemployed), and now I am trying to work out ways to eliminate it. I would hope that you would take this in context. I mean, I wouldn't want to burden a future husband with it, at least not without doing all I could to help eradicate it first.

I think you need to look for a girlfriend who is responsible for her own actions and does not expect the world to be handed to her on a platter. That way, when you are a good boyfriend and DO hand the world to her on a platter, she will be grateful, sincere, and equally gracious to you, in return.

Just don't judge without first determining whether or not she has the right character. Issues can be resolved, if the heart is in the right place.

Just a thought.

[Lucid]

Have you tried talking to the girlfriends in question and telling them that you need more support from them and giving suggestions about how best to offer said support?

Just wondering.

[changos]

curiousjane, thats fine, to keep thing in context, real examples (mine and from others) talk about "financial secrets" of woman who want to get married, a lovely wedding, then a trip but have just as I mentioned HUGE debts. So, one must pay everything. The worst thing is talking about the reason of their debts... (not all, but many will have them because of expensive shoes...)

The more I talk about it the more it seems is the people who refuse to be serious: a serious relationship and a marriage (thats what I talk about, not gf-bf holding hands) requires TWO adults, not one fully capable and other asking for compensations.

Lucid: Yes I have tried but they play the "I don't understand" role. Also some act selfishly.

My conclusion to this (in my experience and from other friends) is that THEY confirm we are not crazy, because LATER, they come back asking for a second chance because they were not able to act as they should. They recognize their lack of knowledge and support.

while talking about this matter with some friends we come to the conclusion that it applies both for man and woman: this problems represent the kind of relationships you had previously.

-----

I must add that the comparison between the the actual human behavior on relationships do relate to the books and fairy tales, where the guy must be a prince, with some money, good looks and treat the girl as a princess. Also, the princess appears as a woman that must be rescued. While such scenario keeps repeating in reality, some girls forget that Cindirella in fact was able to do many many things at home, this doesn't mean she will keep her role as a servant, but represents perhaps the interest of a human being in other able of doing at least something at HER own home.

Just as some said previously, mental healthiness is hard to find these days. Is not a gender anti-feminine thread, but we must accept WE all have been playing roles imposed by society that DON'T go well with reality. This might lead to:



Being unable to fulfill the goals of the relationship
Having a really hard time trying
Trying but complaining, then leaving... only to try again and understand it is how it works, and the previous relationship was "working".
Or... trying facing the frustrations of the partner realizing that he or she is unable to do his-her part.

My best example (analog to this thing about relationships):
(Asked to many friends)... If you had US$50,000 to put up a business, but you require and accountant, manager, secretary and project manager, would you hire your best friends?

Most of the people answer a straight no, as they recognize their friends abilities but lack of responsibility. We know we have friends and what they can do and what they cannot, but in those cases it doesn't matter as there is not relationship-consequences between the friendship and work, EXCEPT if you hire them... you know some are just lazy or not worth of trust.

Failing to recognize this at a relationship is expensive, as THEN, THERE there is a direct relationship about what they are, do and cannot do. Not about abilities, but responsibility, support, empathy and such. Then, some decide to have a relationship but have "separate lives".

[phantasma]

The role of your girlfriend is subjective. Whatever you emotionally/mentally need from each other. Also - this is painful for me too - you are not independent. Get it through your head. Regardless of your type, you are human, and humans are social animals. You need others. Also, it might be useful to view your girlfriend as a companion, not a possession.

[changos]

The role of your girlfriend is subjective. Whatever you emotionally/mentally need from each other. Also - this is painful for me too - you are not independent. Get it through your head. Regardless of your type, you are human, and humans are social animals. You need others. Also, it might be useful to view your girlfriend as a companion, not a possession.

I absolutely agree with every single word you said. I keep repeating people that you might be independent as one, alone but still needing stuff, things (emotional side) but on a relationship, it is the beginning of failure to think ONE is still independent and can manage things alone.

[cncracer]

I don’t know if it will help but it worked for me. I found an ENFP who has filled everything I could want in a spouse. I think the key is to get a person smarter than you, but also a strong extrovert and intuitive person due to our feeling that people should just know how we feel. (With most people they don’t).
The extrovert has helped me grow, as I would just work and read without her, the intuitive aspect seems to let her understand when I am lost in thought, or just need the time to reflect on a topic, without her feeling I have checked out on the relationship.

I am the poster child for INTJ, and my introverted side took a lot of work to get past. I think the harder adjustments were on her side as extroverts need the wider social connection, but I have learned, sometimes kicking and screaming, to be more of a people person. I will never be good at it as I am too direct and seem to scare some people.

Vacations are hard for me, (I am also a workaholic) and she has given in on that issue as long as she and our daughter do not have to suffer no vacations. I revert to a recluse when they are gone. This year, I think I have missed the outside contact for the first time. Someone already mentioned a strong N person, and I agree, I would also say someone who is smarter in a direction and fields where you are weak. It helps you to not offending them when an issue comes up you think they should already know. I would also look for a strong extrovert to balance the introvert in us.

Good luck, I know it hard to find a match, but they are out there just hard to find. Sure would be nice if we all had to wear name tags with our M&B type on them.

[jadefalcon]

Coming from a guy that has not been in a relationship nor knows nothing about them.


For me I think the relationship should be on equal grounds- I won't expect my girlfriend to certain norms and she won't expect me to conform to social norms, however we would both expect each other not to be a sociopath or wander off and not build a relationship. That is my ideal relationship- that I love the person I am with but will not subject her to social norms. Now back to reality.

[blueback]

I can not provide him the support that I would like to because he doesn't let me...So I try subtle ways, like saying to him that I believe in him, that I know he is capable of sorting it out. Why isn't that support? You raise his moral, you show that you admire him and even more you try to show him that you care (even if he doesn't accept it).

As an INTJ male, I can tell you that this will not work. I respect logic and emperical evidence. It doesn't matter to me that you FEEL I can do something unless you KNOW I can do something. If you believe in me because of faith your conclusion won't matter; if you believe in me because of evidence and logic your conclusion will matter. What's more, the fact that you arrived at it through logic and evidence will matter more than the conclusion itself.

For example; if you told me that you KNOW I can ace a job interview because I am very professional, I am well prepared for the job, and the job market in the particular area is booming. . .that would be amazing. As opposed to you claiming that you KNOW I can ace a job interview because. . .well you don't have a reason but doesn't it make me feel better that you believe in me for no particular reason? Wishing doesn't make anything happen. If you believe in me because you WISH I will be successful that implies that you will WISH that everything else in your life will just work out somehow. Things only work out when you make them or when you get lucky. I don't allie myself with people who rely on luck.

I think that this might have something to do with changos' dilemma. My guess is that the women he's with simply can't live up to his standards. They probably feel a bit upset that he really is as put-together as he thinks he is. It means that they can no longer hide behind the false idea that everyone is as screwed up and incompetent as they are. I think this because I have this problem. Most people, not just women, are coasting through life on luck and a few skills they learned by rote. They won't realize what they should be doing until 55 if their lucky.

I suggest you refine your testing criteria. Start meeting more women and rejecting most of them. Like the Navy Seals; if you want the best you have to take a large class and kick most of them out. That's just the way the universe works.

[Undead Bonzi]

Male INTJ here. After many unsatisfying experiences I try to carefully choose my friends (girlfriends), but hard as I try it seems I'm on a dead end or expecting too much. Keep in mind I'm an INTJ (read the bold text before saying I'm the equations failure)

The story: I meet a girl, become friends then a relationship comes. I've been told I'm a great friend and partner, I commit. I remember dates, events, problems, dreams and goals. I "connect" and they feel connected both emotional and affective. When X problem comes (not with me) I'm there for support, advice, understanding, hearing, acting, whatever. I receive very positive feedback on my acting there. This can go on many times. Even after the relationship ends, they accept I was really there doing my part. After several relationships, some hold a desire to get back with me.

The problem is... what's her (their) role on the relationship? (please keep reading) When I'm concerned, troubled, down... whatever, all I hear is:


(silence) which I take as indifference
I know you'll find a way out
I wish I knew how to help you but I can't
I would like to know, how or what to say to make things better, but I can't
I hope you get better
You probably need sometime alone, let me know how it goes
Ohhh, I'm sorry, but don't worry, things will get better. Ok, lets go to the movies!

-------------------------------

So, basically I'm there when they need me, but when I need support I'm on my own. Worst of all I don't even find respect on such responses, not a connection.

This is not a "self pity" thread. I just don't get it. I know I'm very independent and after many tries I was thinking "I seem too far away", closed... so I started opening more and more... but it made no difference communicating clearly how I felt many times. Even asking directly for support.

What is the role of my girlfriend? being pretty? sitting on her butt all day like a cat licking herself to stay clean and pretty? dreaming about unreal things all day? a machine of "I want this and that"?? or is the sex and "company" enough?

I've researched about many many things... I avoid codependency, relationships of savior->saved-cry-for-help, father-daughter. I want an adult with me but it seems I failed.

After struggling on my search for others with more experience and years of life for advice all I have found is responses like "I know what you said, but it won't get any better..." or "you better get used to".

Most of the times if they feel bad they won't even know why, or if they have a bad face and I ask, sometimes I get more upset after hearing the little things that cloud their days compared to "adult stuff".

It seems more and more to me that very FEW people are complete, satisfied with their partners. Does it goes like this with you????

Not feeling really good right now to read the "You have been with the wrong people", please keep those words to yourself if you think like this. No mean any disrespect for the girls

#1. The only commonality in all your failed relationships is you. If multiple relationships have all failed for similar reasons it is time to look in rather than out...which is impossible to do objectively so it is time to have one of your life long friends do it for you and hope they have the balls/ovaries to be honest. If you don't have such a friend then you might have found one of your problems right there.

#2. The 'Nice Guy' is the type of person nearly every single girl/woman will offer up in words as their ideal...and in action as a 'nice guy' the reality of the situation is that you are just above an AIDS infected hobo as a chosen partner. It is reality of practice vs. the spoken ideal. Also the whole 'start as friends and then date' thing is a gigantic pitfall, it almost always ends poorly...as is shown by your own experiences. As completely retarded as it sounds...if you’re interested in a girl go for the date right off the bat, being friends is too easy a thing to fall back on when you’re in a relationship and things get rough.

#3. To be honest and rather blunt...you sound like the needy one in the relationship (which seems to be a common theme in many of the INTJ dating question threads I have seen on this forum. INTJ's seem to walk into relationships with more demands and expectations than a 3 year old in a toy store. In all these threads you always see 'I do so much for them and they don't do anything for me....blah blah blah ). How long are you letting the relationship build before you start asking for these things? If a girl presented those same issues/demands to you right off the bat you can't tell me 'needy/clingy' wouldn't race through your mind...you can reasonably expect the same reaction from them when you do it.

[I]#4. The worst place to ask for dating advice is an internet forum.

[changos]

Blueback, you are talking exactly of what I mean. Most of the people fail to give support because the are lazy and all their actions are just "standard words that have no actions attached". Also, the thing about standards is absolutely true. Some have said to me I live by high standards and they just hate how perfectionist I am. This is NOT true because they call me demanding just because I ask what an adult should do. Most of the times I talk about what their parents are talking about (not a parent role, but the attitude of: at this age you should be this or that).

People are LAZY, guys, girls who fail to understand, please re read the line: PEOPLE ARE LAZY. This doesn't show for them until they get together on a relationship and all they think they can do is just too little to begin with. As I previously said, many come from relationships with no future or responsibility, thats the key to understand what I'm complaining about. This SHOULD-COULD change only if the person wants to. EXCEPT if they fall into the role I describe: refusing to do their part and just say WORDS when you need support.

Most of the support words I can mention from many girls are EXACTLY the ones we can come to see with ALICE BOT, which is a artificial chatting online software.

Undead Bonzi, sorry dude, you don't know what you are talking about and failed to understand what I wrote, <sarcastic>perhaps I failed to include drawings for you on the text</sarcastic>.

On #3 is nothing like you said and after all I don't find how I can explain to you this except that you have no notion of what I talk about. Example: I complain of the little role girls are showing in central america (please re read if you want to). Perhaps you have known other kinds of girls, but I will not be satisfied with somebody who behaves like a princess and refuses to do her job.

As I previously said, I have asked, talked about and FOUND OUT with THEM that when asked, they recognize they WOULDN'T be satisfied with their own answers in times of trouble. IF you fail to understand this last concept, dude, there is nothing we can discuss here.

And dude, WTF? who is asking about dating advice? are you retarded?

[misgolasrapax]

Every time people leave, my partner starts crying and blaming it on me and when I explain that I have no idea what he's on about, he then blames me for not understanding. He is illogical/ emotional and stupid and when I explain that I need him to make sence, he tells me that I should understand anyway. I tell him that I am not a mind reader and that he has to articulate his words better. I am dumbfounded how such a complex human being can not realize that use of language is our mediam.

[Undead Bonzi]

Undead Bonzi, sorry dude, you don't know what you are talking about and failed to understand what I wrote, <sarcastic>perhaps I failed to include drawings for you on the text</sarcastic>.

On #3 is nothing like you said and after all I don't find how I can explain to you this except that you have no notion of what I talk about. Example: I complain of the little role girls are showing in central america (please re read if you want to). Perhaps you have known other kinds of girls, but I will not be satisfied with somebody who behaves like a princess and refuses to do her job.

[B]As I previously said, I have asked, talked about and FOUND OUT with THEM that when asked, they recognize they WOULDN'T be satisfied with their own answers in times of trouble. IF you fail to understand this last concept, dude, there is nothing we can discuss here.

And dude, WTF? who is asking about dating advice? are you retarded?


Your response tells me everything I need to know about your problems and why you 'just don't get it' (your words from your original post). My advice remains true that maybe you need to look at your own actions rather than spending your time crying about what others do.

Also on point #4, if it makes it any clearer to you, just remove the word 'dating'.

[Silence]

This is a tough one, because 'partner' is a word that holds subjective meaning. I've heard a lot of opposing opinions over the years on what works best. You've got to start out looking at the one person you know best: yourself. What do you want in a partnership? What are your beliefs? What do you want to get, what do you want to give? And why are you consistently going back to date girls that (fill in the blank).

Not only does a consistent relationship operate on an equal give-and-take basis, but there is open communication between you both. If you can't find a way to talk to one another about things that bother you, it's a source for resentment and a breakdown in the relationship. There must be respect, and there must be equality.

A personal relationship involving love does NOT equate to a business relaptionship. Though the two are very similar in make, they differ vastly in the ways that count. You do not 'fire' a significant other.

It's hard to find that special someone. You pin your hopes and dreams on an ideal, and when people don't measure up to the imagined prince or princess, you're bound to be disappointed. It's surprising how much of a relationship you can sabotage with unrealistic expectations or hopes, before it even begins.

That being said, don't despair or give up hope. Take every chance to dance and talk to people. Maybe it might be easier if you let nature take its course, instead of seeking a girlfriend to match the idealized decor. Some people are more wonderful than we can imagine, and the chance that you might meet one increases with every opportunity that you seize without control.

[changos]

UB, I wouldn't have any problem saying you are right, but you are not, and not close to what I mean. Surely you are "sure" you are right getting what I mean (to you) but is not like that. Don't insist.

It is impossible to say people get married being fully prepared, but some are really skilled for that. Sadly, most of the others are not. This include the ones already "married" giving advice on how to work things out.

Our discussion (here where I live) both with woman and man ends up with both agreeing that the so called feminist movement is causing enough damage as the previously known "macho movement" were the one in question refuses to act like his-her role requires it. Be it man or woman. Man used to refuse to do the dishes and pretty much 60% or 80% of the home duties. Now the woman also refuses to do so. This doesn't mean is a role thing for them, is a two way thing were both should be able to do or willing to do it.

This is going out of the original post (perhaps) but it seems here (Guatemala) it is a cyclic thing. In the past generation girls did most of the educational role on the family as the parents were alcoholic or irresponsible. Now, the roles are being inverted and is being clearly seen in discussion groups (I work on a media group where such discussion groups have taken place). So, it is being pretty "funny" to see now the girls refusing to be humble and the guys now willing to be a family guy while the girls just "want to work and get some stuff".

As a growing tendency, a community has grown significantly where protest have taken place on the streets complaining about the legal system, were after divorce, their spouses got the kids (but they are never home, just working or dating other guys) while this is not negative per se, the kids get no attention and are raised by the maid. So, years before it was absurd to expect a group of parents wanting to get the kids and raise them by themselves.

My ex girlfriend is a lawyer, and yes, even with her the discussion was a dangerous topic as YES, the quality of man is not getting any better (faster, but it seems to be slow) but the quality of the girls is going down) hard for her or for others to accept.

A relationship is about working hard and accepting reality, but now, is getting worse than that. Some of my male friends are going to counseling as they got tired of discussing with their girlfriends, only to find out at the meting that the so called expert tells them again, that "she" is lacking support. They hate this.

My theory (and with some friends) is that, while dissolved families are a reality we the guys have a mother, most of the girls lack the presence of the father and they get to deal with guys at some age as adults with no clue on how we work. This doesn't imply that we guys are looking for another mother (some do) but it does imply that some of us are very independent, we work, we cook, we clean, we fix things, we wash the dishes, both with our families or if we live alone (for the group of us that have been there) and then, comes the problem of dealing with a girl who wants to live in our house but US to keep doing alone the cleaning, cooking and so.

This doesn't appear at the beginning, just as many of the problems other people have after they get married. Mos of the advice for this is useless and no matter how hard you try, it doesn't depend only on you, but on the other person to be honest on what she or he won't do anymore.

At the end, surprisingly, we have here, specially at our office, single guys with clean departments living alone (in my case my own house, not an apartment). But girls with dirty homes or apartments.

Some attach the life of a clean house, a guy who cooks and clean with the life of a single gay guy, this is happening with straight guys too who refuses to adopt a girl.

At the end, I would be talking pure lies, except for the fact that after such relationships, the girls come back and ask for a second chance admitting their lack of acting on the relationship. But then again, this is not general, it doesn't happen every day and it doesn't mean it will happen where you live.

Woman here in central america have lived under a heavy oppression for years, so, it makes sense. But that doesn't mean we can't complain about it because we have a brain and think, we should see that most of the things people refuse to do living with somebody, they would have to do it by themselves if they lived alone as well.

As an example: my ex used to be amazing, until her working enviroment and salary growed, then she was refusing to do some task we used to do together. This has nothing to do right? well, it seems as she earned more money it was an insult for her to do it. I was doing it alone. Then she wanted a bigger house (with a pool). I refused. We were at my house, and doesn't make sense to me the salary change as I still earned more than her but I was not refusing to do the same stuff.

At the end of the problems, discussing with some friends they had the same problems and thats why some decided not go get married with them. This is combined with the lack of support. They were beautiful cats talking about their life while we were paying the bills.

Was it like this at the begining? no. Did we choose a pretty cat? no, did we choose somebody who valued the money? no.

At first we discussed how to raise the kids on traditional schools, then the issue was HER wanting an elitist school. Why the change? Just as others already married we ask WHY? it doesn't make sense to plan such things, discussed them and then finding out you keep your word but they won't. This is the issue for me, for us.

As economic studies here prove it, somebody who changes his or her way of living refuses to go back to the previous state. Not everybody can handle living on a elitist zone and then go back to the old home where they lived (not everybody can do this).

US taking them to pretty places is not a promise of life, but a way of treating somebody good. If we, the owners of the money (at the time) do not go there by ourselves, why they want to keep going there always?

And at the end, I don't see the point on going on with this





changos added to this post, 8 minutes and 59 seconds later...

And this is what makes the whole thing to make sense:

This thread will not fix things for me or for anyone, or makes us all to understand each other, but as I asked at first:

(my final thoughts)



We all received replies that, in my case, support my complain: lots of people won't ask more than sex, company or beauty.
The previous means that this girls will get used to THAT being their role, and then if you come across with them, they will lack experience on relationships (true relationships)
WE will be the transition point where you might want to fix things, get along and be willing to "work, and teach" while you get pieces of what you need
Guys are not that stupid... as lots of my lazy friends have done, when they find a supportive woman, they won't let it go, this means: work hard and fast.
Again, I see on the whole thing of emotional support, or economic support (understanding) a root of the problem on the way people think today: they want only one child. This is not the end, but of course, two human beings will act differently with their friends and on a relationship depending how they were raised, this doesn't mean only education but if EVERYTHING inside the house was entirely for them.


And no, nobody is that honest to tell you "I won't ever do the dishes, ever ever" (perhaps some will say that, but won't say "YOU do the dishes, forever"), people lie, people change beyond of what we are willing to tolerate. And some emotional beings say things they will do (at the moment) but won't ever keep doing, because they do it as long as the "feeling" is there, this is lack of maturity. Love is not only an emotion, is a decision.

[Necrosis]

Love is not only an emotion, is a decision.

Well said. I realized that more than ever recently.

It's easy to believe what someone says, but it's really what people do that tell you who they are. I said I would never cook... I enjoy cooking now :-X