I'm going to die...

[HackerX]

A philosophical question:

A friend/family member/random stranger comes to you and says that they'll be dead by tomorrow. What's your response?

Feel free to answer in either generic terms, or by imagining a particular person that is close to you has come to you. Feel free to make up any details you require to fill in the rest of the story.

go :)

[Terian]

It depends. In this theoretical scenario, is this person in seemingly full health when they divulge this information, or are they already lying in a hospice bed gasping for each breath they take?

My dad died on October 31st, 2007, and I had seen him the day before. When I saw him, I knew he was going to die within the next couple of days- pancreatic cancer had destroyed him. However, that was only an intellectual understanding- it wasn't an emotional understanding until I was able to spend time with him alone and say my goodbyes. That was the last time I cried.

[HackerX]

It depends. In this theoretical scenario, is this person in seemingly full health when they divulge this information, or are they already lying in a hospice bed gasping for each breath they take?



The point is for there to be no "one" response, but various situations with various responses. That's what I'm hoping for anyway. I made it vague on purpose.

So thanks for yours

[redbaren]

I would say my good byes to that person. and ask that person what there doing next week.

[Mozzes]

I'd ask him how he wanted to celebrate transcendence and how he felt about being so close to answering that question that dogs us all the way to the grave.

[Motor Jax]

invite them with you to the bar that night... might as well have fun if they already know, right?

[notoppings]

If it was a friend, I would say "It sucks to be you" then I would spend the rest of the time indulging their every whim. They would understand that I would be trying to spend their last moments living, not lamenting. Everyone dies, the lucky ones get advanced notice, they can try to leave with little to no regrets. If there is an afterlife I couldn't imagine standing in line trying to get in and them asking What did you do at the end? "Well you see I was eating dinner and I chocked on a bone", not as nice as saying "I went skydiving, I died with a smile on my face" not like that other bloke with an expression of bewilderment.

I hope I get advanced notice.

[Wuchak]

It depends. In this theoretical scenario, is this person in seemingly full health when they divulge this information, or are they already lying in a hospice bed gasping for each breath they take?

My dad died on October 31st, 2007, and I had seen him the day before. When I saw him, I knew he was going to die within the next couple of days- pancreatic cancer had destroyed him. However, that was only an intellectual understanding- it wasn't an emotional understanding until I was able to spend time with him alone and say my goodbyes. That was the last time I cried.

Terian, you're right. The context matters. And, while I understand and sympathize with your loss, I cannot relate to having the opportunity to say goodbye. My father was murdered when I was seventeen. By the time I got to the hospital, he was dead. No goodbye. But I'm certain that I would not have wanted my father to suffer the way yours did. So, I'm more than willing to surrender any potential for a goodbye that might have ever existed. You and I have both faced complexities in this realm at an early age. And it's not just theoretical, is it.

[HackerX]

Terian, you're right. The context matters. And, while I understand and sympathize with your loss, I cannot relate to having the opportunity to say goodbye. My father was murdered when I was seventeen. By the time I got to the hospital, he was dead. No goodbye. But I'm certain that I would not have wanted my father to suffer the way yours did. So, I'm more than willing to surrender any potential for a goodbye that might have ever existed. You and I have both faced complexities in this realm at an early age. And it's not just theoretical, is it.

Absolutely the context matters. But I believe that for various people, there are some things that would be said, regardless of the context, yes?

So I'm giving you the prompt to say them.

Perhaps I'll raise the question like this:
If you weren't told by them (didn't know it was going to be the case), would you still have told/have you still told them what you would have told them had you known?

Are you able to answer the question even if, day by day, you'll never know if it will be asked? If you are, have you?

[Wuchak]

It must have been a mighty struggle to frame that question. :huh:

How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go? Let me give you a real life situation, true as I sit here at this moment. Then you tell me how you would respond. And, I might (based on your response) let you know if you are anywhere in the appropriate dimension.

My wife is affected by an exceedingly rare neurodegenerative brain disease that is uniformly fatal. All treatments are supportive. There is no way to slow down or stop the disease mechanism. Among the several dozen potentials we face on a daily basis, here is one that crosses my mind every night when I go to bed. Will she stop breathing tonight?

That is the knock on the door. And those kind of issues knock on the door 24/7. So, how would you have handled the past 24?

BTW, I wouldn't blame the moderators for moving this thread to philosophy.

[HackerX]

BTW, I wouldn't blame the moderators for moving this thread to philosophy.

Well, I was going to wait on the responses before making a decision on that. It has the potential to head in either direction, so don't be suprised if it does end up there. It's a little heavy for the lounge, but has the potential to be too light for the philosophy. So we'll see.

[Wuchak]

Well, I was going to wait on the responses before making a decision on that. It has the potential to head in either direction, so don't be suprised if it does end up there. It's a little heavy for the lounge, but has the potential to be too light for the philosophy. So we'll see.

If, after my post, it has no direction . . . then it will not have a direction.


Wuchak added to this post, 54 minutes and 39 seconds later...

The issue at stake in my challenge is whether we apply our abstract concepts to real life or do we deny or avoid the potentials (wimp out). Do we just theorize on a superficial level (and pretend we are deep), or are we willing to go into the depths of becoming something else, more, and better--psychologically, spiritually, relationally and personally. It's not enough to just play with the concepts and the words. Any intuitive can do that (the group just got much bigger). And it's not enough to gather information. Any SP can do that (the group just became the majority of humanity). If we don't deal with the complexities of life on a level of in-your-face, harsh, and life-changing reality, then why would how we function matter?

I'm going to go ask that nightly question now.

[Grizzly]

time for a drink....

[JessicaHavenLea]

A philosophical question:

A friend/family member/random stranger comes to you and says that they'll be dead by tomorrow. What's your response?

Feel free to answer in either generic terms, or by imagining a particular person that is close to you has come to you. Feel free to make up any details you require to fill in the rest of the story.

go :)

Family member: Depends on if I like that particular relative. If not then I'd say "well, it's been nice knowing you" (sarcasm). If I like/love that particular person I'd ask if there is anything they want before they go and what they'd like me to do in their honor.

Friend: Don't have any unless I count SO. I'd probably not take him seriously since he jokes about everything. I'd still make him spill his guts. He keeps his feelings to himself. Drives me mad, he does.

Random stranger: The blank "whaddyatalkinabout" look that I usually give people who are talking nonsense would be on my face. If I don't know them I wouldn't care a bit.

[Wuchak]

time for a drink....

Grizzly, that's not my personal approach. But I appreciate your honesty.

[ScurvyRose]

Wuchak, I am very sorry to hear of your wifes ordeal, and your own suffering. I wish her all the lucidity she would like as you both take this journey.

[Wuchak]

Wuchak, I am very sorry to hear of your wifes ordeal, and your own suffering. I wish her all the lucidity she would like as you both take this journey.

ScurvyRose, wow. I wasn't expecting that here. But I gratefully accept it. Thanks (and I'll see you on the playground at recess). :wacky:

I suppose I might have started a thread like this (I seem to have hijacked this one) as a personal blog, to draw others into discussions on how, as real people, we may (and should) become more than a "type." INTJ is only a way of understanding our functional foundation, our tool kit. It's not who we are or what we can become. We are capable of greater complexities within ourselves and in all areas of life, which may lead to other (perhaps higher) dimensions of existence and/or systems of psychological function.

So, any who have a clue . . . weigh in . . .

[cjwidow]

Wuchak - my heart goes out to you and your wife. Mere words cannot encompass the empathy/sympathy I have for you two.
The lead question of this post is unanswerable - grief is a unique and unimaginable process. In my opinion intellectual debates cannot add insight or provide relief with grief.

[Wuchak]

Thanks, CJ. Your login name is tweaking my interest. If you have anything to share, feel free. And your post count requires me to say welcome to the forum. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you.

Our journey has already been long--six years since she was Dx. and disabled from teaching. Gradual losses over a long period of time result in a slow gradual grief process. When the time comes, there will be no big impact of grief.

[ScurvyRose]

Unfortunately even at that point you are relieved that the suffering and decline has ended, then there is an allusion of guilt over that relief mixed within the space in your heart that has been taken.

That is a very long time to spend looking at the end and it must make everyday bittersweet.

[Wuchak]

Unfortunately even at that point you are relieved that the suffering and decline has ended, then there is an allusion of guilt over that relief mixed within the space in your heart that has been taken.

That is a very long time to spend looking at the end and it must make everyday bittersweet.

I doubt that feelings of guilt (false or real) will be a factor, in my case, perhaps because the journey has already been long--at times longer than she would like it to be. Advance directives require me to insist that no recovery efforts or support systems be employed. She wants me to let her go at the first opportunity.

If I were to fail in that duty, then I would be guilty (from her perspective and mine) of keeping her alive only to eventually inhabit a wheelchair with a feeding tube (or more extreme support measures).

[ScurvyRose]

Still sucks.


Sorry for that.

[Terian]

Terian, you're right. The context matters. And, while I understand and sympathize with your loss, I cannot relate to having the opportunity to say goodbye. My father was murdered when I was seventeen. By the time I got to the hospital, he was dead. No goodbye. But I'm certain that I would not have wanted my father to suffer the way yours did. So, I'm more than willing to surrender any potential for a goodbye that might have ever existed. You and I have both faced complexities in this realm at an early age. And it's not just theoretical, is it.
The same age, actually.
And yeah, I think I would have sacrificed any goodbyes if it meant he wouldn't have suffered.
I'm kind of a dick though. I've caused several awkward moments (on purpose- I think they're funny) by saying, "My dad is dead."

But in the case of your wife, I will say that there is no way for me to imagine what that must be like. I have never been in any long-term relationship; especially not akin to a marriage. And to have your significant other (the person with whom you hold the strongest emotional bonds) slowly deteriorate must be at once surreal and antagonizing. I feel for you, in as much as it is within my capacity to do so.

[Wuchak]

The same age, actually.

And yeah, I think I would have sacrificed any goodbyes if it meant he wouldn't have suffered.

I'm kind of a dick though. I've caused several awkward moments (on purpose- I think they're funny) by saying, "My dad is dead."

I'm sure that I caused a few awkward moments, too, though maybe not in the same way.

I know that, perhaps, it's way early (since your father's death) to ask, but do you have any ideas on how that has changed you, changed your life--or how it might?


Wuchak added to this post, 7 minutes and 22 seconds later...

Thanks, Terian, BTW there's a young man in Gen. Psych "How do you grieve?" thread whose father died yesterday. You might look in and see if you can add anything that might assist him.

[True Rune]

Bow, and say "Farewell." Just kidding. I don't know who'd want to be around me before they die, but perhaps I would just listen to anything they have to say. People facing those situations tend to have interesting things to say, knowing their fate and all. I guess I'd just be there for them, treat them like a normal human being. The good with the bad..

[Wuchak]

. . . perhaps I would just listen to anything they have to say. People facing those situations tend to have interesting things to say, knowing their fate and all. I guess I'd just be there for them, treat them like a normal human being. The good with the bad..

Ishida, some really good thoughts . . . Yes, just listen, be there, treat them as normal as possible (even in seemingly impossible situations).

Life goes on, doesn't it. "The good with the bad." Yes! But that may require us to develop in ways that we never dreamed would be necessary or possible.