INTJ Females

[Jezebel]

To the INTJ females: what has your experience been like being an INTJ female? Do you have trouble relating to other females?

Do you agree with this:

Statistically, there are more male INTJs than female. *Not surprisingly, the INTJ female's independence, intellectual aloofness, and argumentative style may result in her feeling somewhat out of step with those attributes more traditionally associated with femininity. *For an INTJ female to be true to herself may put her out of step with the mainstream.


To everyone else, how do you perceive INTJ females? Do you find them more or less appealing (either as friends or romantic partners) than the typical female?



(I'll answer this too, I just don't want the first post in this thread to be about me)

[Tarrick]

INTJ Females are very...well, surprising. It's unexpected whenever I meet one simply because they're so rare. It's a very pleasant surprise, mine you, as I suddenly have someone who I can more readily relate to.

At first, I do sometimes find myself a bit off-kilter though, because INTJ Females are not masculine, but speak and act in a rational, thoughtful manner. It's a very different blend then Male Rational give off. Again it's a very...curious and unconventional feeling whenever I interact with one them partly because it's so rare (thus leading to a feeling of contradiction) and partly because I'm talking with someone of similar brain function. But I get that whenever I interact with any Rational.

The fact that she (the INTJ female) is independent and intellectual in nature is very refreshing really. It puts her in a place where we are more equal than I would be with others, even some guys, and we are able to carry out tasks and discussions (or knock out arguments) in a manner much more efficiently and with less social trappings. It's not that I'm so cold that I can be supportive, but constant hand-holding is...ineffective.

In the end, I just wish I knew and interacted with more of them.

Anyways, that's my opinion.

[Firelie]

Oh hell yeah, I agree with that. Growing up, almost all of the girl friends I had used to admire me for my independence and frequently came to me for advice (whether I knew anything about the subject or not...that always kinda confused me, especially when I was 17 and people far more experienced in the areas of love were coming to me for advice on their relationships...which they never took, even though I was ALWAYS RIGHT), but I was never really "one of the girls". Even the person that called me her "best friend" often ignored me because I wasn't "cool" like her other friends. Actually, most of the friends I have now do the same thing. Wow, that sounds really sad when I say it like that. lol I don't really mind, though, since I'd rather not be out hitting the bars and dancing anyway.

I also have trouble relating to men...I don't entirely know why, but I've been thinking about it, and I think most "normal men" tend to expect women to be outgoing and talkative and flirtatious and sensitive...and therefore don't know what to do with me. *shrugs* Maybe I'm way off base, though.

[The Rose]

To the INTJ females: what has your experience been like being an INTJ female? Do you have trouble relating to other females?

Do you agree with this:

Statistically, there are more male INTJs than female. *Not surprisingly, the INTJ female's independence, intellectual aloofness, and argumentative style may result in her feeling somewhat out of step with those attributes more traditionally associated with femininity. *For an INTJ female to be true to herself may put her out of step with the mainstream.I didn't realize that my problem with women was my INTJness.
I just thought I hated women because my mother was a manipulative liar (ISTJ),
and my sister was the queen of denial (INFP).
I prefer honesty and openness.

I don't relate to "girly girls".
I don't mind the tomboyish gals so much.

The one type of female I CANNOT get along with is ESTJ.
I have broken relationships with 3 women and all 3 of them are ESTJs.
I can get along with ESTJ men okay.

I have read something similar to the statement you quoted.
I just assumed it was true.
I had to learn to be feminine. It didn't come naturally.

If there are 2 conversations going on in a room,
one is with a group of men, and one is with a group of women,
I would much rather go take part in the conversation the men are having,
just because the subject matter is bound to be more interesting to me.
I love talking about ideas.
I hate talking about people.

[TeleportThis]

I guess I've always just totally ignored girls that I didn't find interesting. Most of my friends are girls, but they aren't stereotypical females.

I have said more than once that I find most moms to be annoying. I guess I couldn't just ignore them because that would have been rude.

I don't have to come into contact with stereotypical females much, because they just don't exist in engineering. Except maybe IE.

But I wouldn't say I feel out of step with just stereotypical females. I also feel out of step with stereotypical males, although I am more comfortable around them than the females.

[Rei]

Before my knowledge of my INTJ nature I hardly ever noticed any other females like me (perhaps my mother? *I have yet to test her)

I do find it rather difficult give people a typical feminine first impression... I've always been more at ease talking to guys than girls, and tend to have more guy friends than girl friends.

The aloof, independant, argumentative, 'cold' traits that are typical of INTJ's makes it very hard to buddy up with girls. *It seems extra easy to insult them accidently. *Independance; as far as I know/believe every single guy who's ever been interested in me were interested because they were intrigued by my independance and perhaps my sharp tongue.
I am so at ease with guy friends that I'm pretty much one of them, which, I've been told, is sometimes intimidating (and yet at other times I get to see/hear a lot of things other girls generally do not).

Honestly, at times I think I'd probably make a great guy. *It'd be so much easier to be an INTJ guy. *Sadly, women do not turn be on so I can't go homosexual... *sighs*

But anyway... INTJ women are to men, like the "Fabulous Gay Man" behind "Every Great Woman". Since I find that gay woman don't generally seem to have that kind of bond with straight men. =/

[Firelie]

Honestly, at times I think I'd probably make a great guy. *It'd be so much easier to be an INTJ guy. *Sadly, women do not turn me on so I can't go homosexual... *sighs*

Hahaha! I've thought the same thing. People have thought I was a lesbian many times before (including my own mother... :-X).

[Jezebel]

I find my personality very at odds with what most people expect, I think even a lot moreso than the INTJ males. I'm far from the overtly sweet, nuturing, submissive type usually expected of most females. *I've been told that I'm too cold and insensitive many times (while not trying to be).

It's not that I'm trying to be mean though. In fact, I often think that I'm nicer (deep down) than most people I know. It's just that being rational can sound cold and openly talking about feelings or acting mushy makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I don't give the appropriate social cues people expect and I hate being chatty. When people come to me for help, rather than just listening or showing empathy, I go into fix-it mode or get annoyed if I think they're whining and not trying hard enough (and I'll tell them so). I think a lot of people just want someone who will listen and show sympathy.

I've had trouble finding female friends with similar interests. However, I prefer them as friends as the friendships tend to run into a lot less complications and I like a select few quite a bit.

[Rei]

Oh hell yeah, I agree with that. *Growing up, almost all of the girl friends I had used to admire me for my independence and frequently came to me for advice (whether I knew anything about the subject or not...that always kinda confused me, especially when I was 17 and people far more experienced in the areas of love were coming to me for advice on their relationships...which they never took, even though I was ALWAYS RIGHT), but I was never really "one of the girls".


I totally know what you mean. Since the time people getting crushes and started to day, I've been asked for advice. The catch is, I didn't start dating till YEARS after everyone else did, and it didn't work out for long either. And yet, I am still constantly expected to give advice on these matters (*cough* yes, they ask, and then they never pull through with "the plan" I teach them).

It's also true that I've never been "one of the girls" All through childhood, I used to move around a lot; but even when my family settled down I never stuck to a single group of friends for more than one school year (because I fall out of favour since I don't try to butter the "leaders" up like everyone else likes to do, and in fact tends to burn them with my straightforward comments). It wasn't until people got older that people stopped these little social wars that I quietly slipped into a "group", but even then I generally only had one or two real friends; otherwise I was the advice person =/. And yet, all through this, I talked to guy friends about things that I never talked to my girl "friends" about (actually I never really chatted with my girl "friends" unless they were in need of advice... or when they needed to talk, which meant I was really just sitting there like a dummy who nods sympathetically)

[Rei]

Honestly, at times I think I'd probably make a great guy. *It'd be so much easier to be an INTJ guy. *Sadly, women do not turn me on so I can't go homosexual... *sighs*

Hahaha! *I've thought the same thing. *People have thought I was a lesbian many times before (including my own mother... :-X).


Over the years, I've gone through spells of being paranoid that people think I'm a lesbian. But since then I've been told that there are distinct differences between me (INTJ) and lesbians. Apparently, I act like a man, but I still SOUND like a woman =/ (I guess they mean I still have female values and female tastes... eg. for hot guys ;D)

[Firelie]

Over the years, I've gone through spells of being paranoid that people think I'm a lesbian. *But since then I've been told that there are distinct differences between me (INTJ) and lesbians. *Apparently, I act like a man, but I still SOUND like a woman =/ *(I guess they mean I still have female values and female tastes... eg. for hot guys *;D)

I was offended by the assumptions that I was a lesbian at first, but then I realized that if not being like other women meant that people thought I was a lesbian, then they could think all they wanted, cuz there was no way I was going to change myself to fit their expectations.

[Rei]

I'm far from the overtly sweet, nuturing, submissive type usually expected of most females. *I've been told that I'm too cold and insensitive many times (while not trying to be).

It's not that I'm trying to be mean though. In fact, I often think that I'm nicer (deep down) than most people I know. It's just that being rational can sound cold and openly talking about feelings or acting mushy makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I don't give the appropriate social cues people expect and I hate being chatty. When people come to me for help, rather than just listening or showing empathy, I go into fix-it mode or get annoyed if I think they're whining and not trying hard enough (and I'll tell them so). I think a lot of people just want someone who will listen and show sympathy.

I've had trouble finding female friends with similar interests. However, I prefer them as friends as the friendships tend to run into a lot less complications and I like a select few quite a bit.

Too true. I've been accused of being insensitive, but it's just the way I like things to be out in the open. I dislike disillusionging people and trying to sugarcoat things. I think that comes with the perfectionist side of INTJ's. But really, I'm actually a lot nicer and more forgiving than many people I know. Openly talking about feelings seems to completely cross the comfort zone, as in privacy completely invaded! And small-talk is a complete waste of time (anal effieciency typical of INTJ's). Like I said, I have very few female friends I will actually talk to about my thoughts. One - my best - is an INTP; the other two are INFP's.

[Rei]

I was offended by the assumptions that I was a lesbian at first, but then I realized that if not being like other women meant that people thought I was a lesbian, then they could think all they wanted, cuz there was no way I was going to change myself to fit their expectations.


I think I was too intimidating to be openly asked/called a lesbian. But I've met several lesbians in my time who tended to... gravitate to me. It's cool hanging out, but it usually starts to get rather awkward.

But definately, I've come to embrace my male-ness. It's just frustrating trying to find guys I like who don't mind it =/

[Opti]

I have always been a tom boy in the way I dress and I am quite tall & thick set. *I have tried to make a conscious effort to be more feminine for work (Keeping my hair long, more fitted clothing as opposed to baggy) as I have also been a little paranoid that people think I am a lesbian. I had a work friend a few years back who was openly lesbian, we were close (Well close as in I could talk to her about some of my personal life). On a work night out that I had to be pestered to goto, another work colleague made a comment asking if she was my 'boyfriend' - at the time I just laughed, now I would act differently *;)

I have just recently got all my hair chopped up short, I am going to be true to myself, I am beyond caring what people think :)

As for male/female friendships - I have always got on better with males (apart from when they talk about sport lol) However the issue I have found with some men is that they think I fancy them because we get on well and then the flirtation starts *:scared:

Any female 'aquaintancies' wanted to chat about beauty/fashion/relationships/sex etc etc. Which quite frankly I find A: Boring & B: Too Personal.

[Guido]

Although I can't relate so much to the girl specific stuff... it still baffles me how I can read post after post after post... and just think to myself 'that's me in a nutshell.'

But yeah... as far as dating another INTJ, I have no idea. I've never known an INTJ in my life, so I have no idea how I'd get along with someone like myself. I'd like to imagine that everything would be fine, but if we were to disagree on some fundamental, I'm not sure what would happen. The more I know someone, the more 'open' I tend to be which could cause things to get messy if that 'openness' was retaliated. I imagine though if we both respected each other intellectually, then there wouldn't be a problem. I'm attracted to girls who have a more traditional classy look. Not girly girls, but never the less, girls that dress like girls. I'm guessing INTJ might not be so right for that. Apparently a good match is ENFP or ENTP? I know an ENFP and they're nuts >_<!! Ugh...

I'm not entirely sure your situation would be that much better if you were a guy, in fact I would argue it would make the situation worse. Although I can't exactly prove that for sure, I'll still argue it :D Although a guy could be intimidated with your personality type, you can get along with guys. If the guy finds you attractive and you get along, you can start dating as demonstrated by ladder theory. (Google ladder theory if you're curious, which I know you all are... but we warned, it bashes women a bit :o) Us guys on the other hand, are screwed. Getting along with girls for me, is completely foreign. I am trying very hard to mimic socialization customs, body language, etc, in hopes of defeating my 24 year streak of not having a serious girlfriend. I've made good progress, but it's very difficult. Most girls have emotional needs of some kind, which I don't relate with too well and can sometimes not respect. I mean really, why should anyone need constant reassurance? It just reminds me of a child wanting attention from it's parents. Ugh... another topic I'm bitter about I guess.

Regardless of who's got it worse off, the biggest hurdle we all have is meeting people. I don't think INTJs are good at that... at all :/ This is apparently one of the things our personality types has big problems with... or our 'Achilles heel' as one write up put it. In short, I think we're all doomed. Just remember to be doomed with a smile.

[Rei]

Oh yes... the way we dress/look...

I generally like keep my hair at shoulder length or shorter. It's just more convenient, plus it cuts down the chances of getting hair stuck in jacket zippers, and getting frizzy due to static. ::)
I dress, as my friend could call it, with style. Different style depending on my mood =/ And class, boy do I LOVE classiness.

But I still have that irking that I exude this... "machoness" let's say... no matter what I wear. My tiny frame helps me get away with slightly girly looks, but never any more than that. I have this... mini version of an athletic build (and I seriously don't work out), *mutters about thick calves and arms and blames it on the cross country team in grade school* So yeah, I'm uncomfortable with wearing skirts/dresses even though I like them :thinking:

Anyway. It seems relating to people emotionally is an ability we lack. I guess in guys it does cause a bit of a problem. Perhaps you are better off finding an INTJ girl who doesn't splurge on emotional rants all the time.

I must say, I would probably find it easier to find someone who is emotionally open beacuse I'm awful at sensing it; but i believe in a relationship you have to share emotions (it's one of those things you have to force yourself to do... another example of showing affection :-/)

[The Rose]

I had a boss who was an ISFJ.
I learned so much from her.
She had a lot of strengths where I am weak.
I loved the way she was patient with me when I made mistakes.
I learned how to slow down and stop thinking about deadlines so much,
and she seemed to accept me unconditionally at first,
but I don't think I could ever be married to an ISFJ type.

It was so easy to hurt her feelings!
And no matter how much I apologized, she couldn't just forgive and move on.
One hurt stacked on top of another hurt until she wouldn't even talk to me.
She is extremely generous, but I am extremely conservative,
and she didn't like that about me.
I learned to be more generous, but that doesn't change my basic way of thinking - to conserve in all things.

Generally speaking, I think opposites attract anyway.
I'm not sure I've ever known an INTJ.

[Firelie]

lol @ ladder theory. *That one cracks me up every time I read it. *The sad thing is that I've met a number of women like that...and then there are the men who have met those women and then assumed that ALL women are like that. *It's really hard to translate into terms people understand that when I say "I want a guy with a job", I mean "I want a guy with a job because I don't want some loser leeching off of me while he sits on his ass playing video games at home and I'm out working"...NOT "I want a guy with a job because I want to eventually take all of his money and move to Hawaii." *Too many people immediately leap to the second one without even stopping to consider that there may be more options. *Frustrating, really.

[Rei]

lol @ ladder theory. *That one cracks me up every time I read it. *The sad thing is that I've met a number of women like that...and then there are the men who have met those women and then assumed that ALL women are like that. *It's really hard to translate into terms people understand that when I say "I want a guy with a job", I mean "I want a guy with a job because I don't want some loser leeching off of me while he sits on his ass playing video games at home and I'm out working"...NOT "I want a guy with a job because I want to eventually take all of his money and move to Hawaii." *Too many people immediately leap to the second one without even stopping to consider that there may be more options. *Frustrating, really.



well said *fumes*

[Guido]

I've always thought that for every retarded girl out there, there's an equally retarded guy. Which means, the world is full of retards :D Talking with my ESFP sister about all the guy's she's met and considers dating (and I don't know if there is a worse type out there for bad choices in mates... which makes sense I guess since I think INTJs are the pickiest) really confirms that...

[Tarrick]

Us guys on the other hand, are screwed. Getting along with girls for me, is completely foreign. I am trying very hard to mimic socialization customs, body language, etc, in hopes of defeating my 24 year streak of not having a serious girlfriend. I've made good progress, but it's very difficult. Most girls have emotional needs of some kind, which I don't relate with too well and can sometimes not respect.

Too true. As a Rational guy, I can talk to and work with girls as people, but not really as girls. I've become very practiced at using my intuition as a substitute for feeling, but trying to have a conversation/debate with anyone who is a moderately strong F is borderline painful, especially when they "lockdown" on a particular point and won't budge.

As for emotional needs...yeah about those. No clue what to do with them.

[Rei]

.... trying to have a conversation/debate with anyone who is a moderately strong F is borderline painful, especially when they "lockdown" on a particular point and won't budge.

When people argue with feelings, I stop having things to argue with them about. Because they're totally off the charts in terms of possible reasonable points to make against their feelings because they pull in things that don't see at all relevant to the actual argument, but it;s something they seem to think links everything together. O____o

[Jezebel]

Off topic replies moved to This Thread. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[polenka]

(I guess they mean I still have female values and female tastes... eg. for hot guys *;D)

Yes...that does tend to be a distinguishing feature :P that I too, retain...in addition to an indulgence in fashion and shopping (I'm not entirely sure why...perhaps it has something to do with the game of getting designer clothing at non-designer prices... :suspicious:).

People tend to view me as cold, and I definitely sometimes offend people during conversations with my rationality and lack of thought for personal feelings...especially my more feeling friends...my cousin actually thanked me for being the way I am because she said I prepared her for interactions with her husband!

[Firelie]

Heh. The joys of being a woman. I don't dress fashionably, but oh god, I love that show What Not To Wear. My roommates sit around and happily be judgemental while watching that one.

[Tarrick]

Heh. The joys of being a woman. I don't dress fashionably, but oh god, I love that show What Not To Wear. My roommates sit around and happily be judgemental while watching that one.

I hate that show. I mean, did no one ever teach them about comfort or practicality?

[Firelie]

I hate that show. I mean, did no one ever teach them about comfort or practicality?

No, they're poofy New Yorkers with a need to make everyone look fantastically stylish, not comfortable.

[Tarrick]

Damn them. Don't they know that practicality comes before aesthetics?

[Rei]

Looking nice doesn't have to be impractical.
Old, dirty, outdated clothes doesn't equal comfort either.
Not to mention the people who like to wear clothes that arn't their size.

[TeleportThis]

Heh. The joys of being a woman. I don't dress fashionably, but oh god, I love that show What Not To Wear. My roommates sit around and happily be judgemental while watching that one.

I know where you are coming from. I really like Project Runway. It always makes me want to sew and then I'll start something and remember how boring sewing actually is.

[Tarrick]

Here's a comic (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) that you females may enjoy (well this one in particular. It's a usually a very funny comic in general).

[The Rose]

Here's a comic (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) that you females may enjoy (well this one in particular. It's a usually a very funny comic in general).Makes me feel sorry for guys.
It was cute.

[TheFreeThinker]

I’m kinda Tommy girl but I try to wear stylish and updated clothes always. However I only wear the comfortable ones.

[Tarrick]

I’m kinda Tommy girl but I try to wear stylish and updated clothes always. However I only wear the comfortable ones.

Just to confirm this, that's not an oxymoron?

[TheFreeThinker]

I’m kinda Tommy girl but I try to wear stylish and updated clothes always. However I only *wear the comfortable ones. *

Just to confirm this, that's not an oxymoron?

Yeah, thanks! I think Tom girl would be correct??? Anyway, all I meant was "I'm not girly" I have to improve my English more :)

[Tarrick]

Err...
I was referring to the clothes actually. :)

And by all means, introduce yourself in the introduction forum. :thumbsup:

[TheFreeThinker]

Err...
I was referring to the clothes actually. *:)

And by all means, introduce yourself in the introduction forum. *:thumbsup:

Oops, since some people were talking about "What Not to Wear", "Project Runway" and their clothing styles, I thought it was relevant. Maybe I should have quoted those people. I’m new to forums, I’m learning. ;D

[hopscotch]

It seems we share many experiences because we don't conform to society's perception of 'female'.

I, too, get along better with men than women. I don't care to discuss fashion, celebrities and relationships (especially when conversations turn to sex) so that leaves me with little to talk about with most women. I dislike the bar scene and scoff at women who frequent them in hopes of nabbing a hot, rich, jock-type protector. I cringe when I hear intelligent women yearning for the day when they can quit their jobs and become kept women or stay-at-home moms. Whenever I voice my opposition, I'm regarded as an enemy or branded a man-hater. Pardon me for having ambitions and adhering to my values. My rather Machiavellian view of the world is also unpopular.

I prefer talking to NT men (most S types are too stereotypical and I've no patience for Fs) who challenge me and appreciate my arguments and insights. They are also the most likely to understand my quirky and sometimes offensive humour. However, they tend to regard me as 'one of the guys', making more-than-a-friend relationships virtually non-existent for most of my life. I think some men, especially those lacking confidence and direction, are intimidated by an independent, intelligent women who doesn't need a big, strong man to comfort and care for her. I refuse to feign vulnerability, ignorance and emotion to match their expectations.

In summary, I usually feel awkward and misunderstood.

[Firelie]

It seems we share many experiences because we don't conform to society's perception of 'female'.

I, too, get along better with men than women. *I don't care to discuss fashion, celebrities and relationships (especially when conversations turn to sex) so that leaves me with little to talk about with most women. *I dislike the bar scene and scoff at women who frequent them in hopes of nabbing a hot, rich, jock-type protector. *I cringe when I hear intelligent women yearning for the day when they can quit their jobs and become kept women or stay-at-home moms. *Whenever I voice my opposition, I'm regarded as an enemy or branded a man-hater. *Pardon me for having ambitions and adhering to my values. *My rather Machiavellian view of the world is also unpopular.

I prefer talking to NT men (most S types are too stereotypical and I've no patience for Fs) who challenge me and appreciate my arguments and insights. *They are also the most likely to understand my quirky and sometimes offensive humour. *However, they tend to regard me as 'one of the guys', making more-than-a-friend relationships virtually non-existent for most of my life. *I think some men, especially those lacking confidence and direction, are intimidated by an independent, intelligent women who doesn't need a big, strong man to comfort and care for her. *I refuse to feign vulnerability, ignorance and emotion to match their expectations.

In summary, I usually feel awkward and misunderstood.

Heyyyy, welcome to the club. I was smiling and nodding while reading your entire post.

[phoenix]

It seems we share many experiences because we don't conform to society's perception of 'female'.

I, too, get along better with men than women. *I don't care to discuss fashion, celebrities and relationships (especially when conversations turn to sex) so that leaves me with little to talk about with most women. *I dislike the bar scene and scoff at women who frequent them in hopes of nabbing a hot, rich, jock-type protector. *I cringe when I hear intelligent women yearning for the day when they can quit their jobs and become kept women or stay-at-home moms. *Whenever I voice my opposition, I'm regarded as an enemy or branded a man-hater. *Pardon me for having ambitions and adhering to my values. *My rather Machiavellian view of the world is also unpopular.


I can so completely relate to this. Growing up my mother was the strong one, the primary bread-winner. In college I was typically the only female in my courses. It wasn't until I got into a "regular job" that I ran into this mindset...that what women want, and SHOULD want, is a male protector and provider. This concept runs so contrary to my personal set of beliefs that I still have trouble accepting that people really feel that way.

I once had a superior tell me that he really appreciated the fact that he didn't have to tell me what needed to be done, didn't have to explain how to do it. What bothered me was the way he phrased it. "You're not like the other women I've had as employees..." I think he thought he was giving me a compliment. Instead he told me that the one thing I wanted to do right at that moment was find a position where he wasn't my boss.

And yes, people think I'm a man-hater for many reasons....

[jeffersonian]

Like most of the males who responded, I don't know that I've ever encountered an INTJ female. This is of great disappointment to me.

Relating to males for me is pointless because I don't care about sports, AT ALL. I also don't think it's cute or funny to not be able to iron your own clothes, not be able to cook for yourself, and generally sit around in a diaper waiting for other people to tend to you basic needs. I don't think I'm at all extreme in summarizing the typical American male.

An INTJ female would be absolutely outstanding to spend time with and/or date. There are so many ideas floating around in my head that I can't really discuss in relationships because I know my "normal" companion will just think them bizarre rather than helping me examine the logic that gave rise to them.

Relating to females, in general, is a bit easier. I tend to stick to the quiet ones, and I've also found that analyzing people (internally) is fruitful because it keeps me asking questions about them. As a substitute for idle conversation, which I can't do, people thrive on this because I'm letting them talk about themselves.

[mind_wander]

Anyway. *It seems relating to people emotionally is an ability we lack. *I guess in guys it does cause a bit of a problem. *Perhaps you are better off finding an INTJ girl who doesn't splurge on emotional rants all the time.


Actually, once someone in my class who was my female team member cried on the phone. I was very forgiving; yeah it seems, I normally get the emotional one's or unstable. Be a man and take it all in.

[Rei]

Actually, once someone in my class who was my female team member cried on the phone. I was very forgiving; yeah it seems, I normally get the emotional one's or unstable. Be a man and take it all in.

I have a huge intolerance of people who openly cry when they're in a bad situation. *I'm open to listening to their problems on the phone and giving them advice as needed, and if they start to cry a little part way through it's okay. *But if they are crying and call me while they're crying I'd just freak out. *First of all, the person is not in a state that allows any logical analysis of the problem, so she's just calling me to listen to her cry, and just I don't have the patience for it. *I am not built to be anyone's emotional support, I'm built to be an advisor.

I myself only ever cry when I watch really REALLY good movies. If I ever cry about shit happening in my life, no one will know it ever happened.

[rwyatt365]

An INTJ female would be absolutely outstanding to spend time with and/or date. There are so many ideas floating around in my head that I can't really discuss in relationships because I know my "normal" companion will just think them bizarre rather than helping me examine the logic that gave rise to them.

Relating to females, in general, is a bit easier. I tend to stick to the quiet ones, and I've also found that analyzing people (internally) is fruitful because it keeps me asking questions about them. As a substitute for idle conversation, which I can't do, people thrive on this because I'm letting them talk about themselves.
I'm with you on both of these points.

I learned early in life not to even TRY to relay many of the thoughts that swarm inside my head to anyone, much less a "significant other". Reactions have ranged from blank stares, to (what seemed like) outright terror! So, I've learned to keep my thoughts behind the impenetrable walls of my own mind. Of course that means that I don't sleep well – all those thoughts buzzing around like so many bees tends to keep you up at night. I can't discuss movies, or TV shows, current events, or philosophies of life with anyone.

I probably don’t have to tell any of you about being alone in a crowded room. What is more disturbing is being alone in the company of the person that you call your mate/spouse/girlfriend/etc. How awesome would it be (for me) to speak my mind, express my thoughts to a female partner and be UNDERSTOOD, even respected!

For those of you ladies that have that kind of relationship with your significant other, a heartfelt congratulations. Whether it be INTJ-INTJ or some other paring, cherish what you have because it is rare and beautiful. For those ladies that don’t (currently) have that kind of relationship, seek it. Don’t let anyone put your light under a bushel because yours is a light that will illuminate the world. There are enough brain-dead robot-girls out there to satisfy those that will settle for less. Your unique qualities are what we need.

You go (INTJ) girl! :thumbsup:

[mind_wander]

Actually, once someone in my class who was my female team member cried on the phone. I was very forgiving; yeah it seems, I normally get the emotional one's or unstable. Be a man and take it all in.

I have a huge intolerance of people who openly cry when they're in a bad situation. *I'm open to listening to their problems on the phone and giving them advice as needed, and if they start to cry a little part way through it's okay. *But if they are crying and call me while they're crying I'd just freak out. *First of all, the person is not in a state that allows any logical analysis of the problem, so she's just calling me to listen to her cry, and just I don't have the patience for it. *I am not built to be anyone's emotional support, I'm built to be an advisor.


lol, I found this very funny. yeah, my basic instinct is take a chill pill; let them open up to you. No work has to be done, but the only thing is that you can slowly help admend the problems, listen to concerns, etc. As you said, I'm more the advisor; sure alot of people got problems. I always wondered, why come to me? Is there is invisible tag on my back says, "Hey, this dude here is quite and will take all your problems away?"

[mind_wander]

Reactions have ranged from blank stares, to (what seemed like) outright terror! So, I've learned to keep my thoughts behind the impenetrable walls of my own mind. Of course that means that I don't sleep well – all those thoughts buzzing around like so many bees tends to keep you up at night. I can't discuss movies, or TV shows, current events, or philosophies of life with anyone.

I probably don’t have to tell any of you about being alone in a crowded room. What is more disturbing is being alone in the company of the person that you call your mate/spouse/girlfriend/etc. How awesome would it be (for me) to speak my mind, express my thoughts to a female partner and be UNDERSTOOD, even respected!

For those of you ladies that have that kind of relationship with your significant other, a heartfelt congratulations. Whether it be INTJ-INTJ or some other paring, cherish what you have because it is rare and beautiful. For those ladies that don’t (currently) have that kind of relationship, seek it. Don’t let anyone put your light under a bushel because yours is a light that will illuminate the world. There are enough brain-dead robot-girls out there to satisfy those that will settle for less. Your unique qualities are what we need.

You go (INTJ) girl! *:thumbsup:

rwyatt365,

I know exactly what you mean; I get the blank stares too. Like your wild animal came straight from the zoo. As for bottling up your thoughts; what happens you tend to circumvent it in your writings without knowing it. Luckily this website exists, so you can tell it others around the world who knows what you mean [logical thinkers in plain English 101].

Trust me on this one, we need more INTJ's, without logics well things just goes down the tube for ya.

[thegnat]

First of all, my opinion on the matter of
Statistically, there are more male INTJs than female. Not surprisingly, the INTJ female's independence, intellectual aloofness, and argumentative style may result in her feeling somewhat out of step with those attributes more traditionally associated with femininity. For an INTJ female to be true to herself may put her out of step with the mainstream.

I absolutely agree.

When I'm most true to myself I'm definitely more out of step with the mainstream as they say. And I am pretty true to myself. I'm sick of faking a little bit at all anymore. I am who I am, I should embrace it.

I suppose one of the biggest things is I don't relate to women as other women do. Like I'm the last one to empathize with the girl who just broke down in tears because she just broke up with her boyfriend. Others see her crying and jump in and I'm like what the hell is going on? Then I hear screams of hysteria of how she broke up. Then I understand. And even so, I'm still not that empathetic with her. I'm actually more like, "Yeah! It's awesome I'm single!" So I kind of inwardly grin and don't give too much comfort to the person - especially because I really can't empathize with a person in that situation.... In other situations though that I might be able to relate to I can empathize a little bit...but I won't be bawling with the person so to speak or what not. I'd rather give them their space almost. Because that's what I'd want. I think empathy is one of those things that really does separate at least me, from mainstream women. I really do feel it sometimes - I just don't express it.

I absolutely despise gossip. Can't stand it. Or any "people-related" talk. Let's talk about ideas, sports, anything other than gossip. Or fashion... why worry SO MUCH about fashion? Granted, I like to look decent. But I don't go out of my way to find the uber-trendy outfit that looks hot on my for one day and then will be out of fashion the next. I like *practical* clothing that still looks good. Though looks aren't a priority. Especially on lab days. Jeans and t-shirts no matter what on lab days. And tennis shoes. And I think glasses can add something to a look, too. So wear them sometimes haha. I'm not a total tomboy. I'm just far more practical than most women in what I wear.

Oh and make up/perfume. You won't see me wearing make up and/or perfume. Especially perfume. LIGHT make up on special occasions.

I also have a different way of thinking than most women. Kind of a different life strategy so to speak. Well one person called me "dude-like" with an opinion I had on something. But anyway - I'm of the "tough it out, figure it out for yourself" mentality where most women I feel will complain and ask for help before they even try and figure it out sometimes. I don't take pain killers unless I'm in *serious* pain or just plain miserable due to pain. You know I'm in serious trouble if I actually take a pain killer - I didn't take one for my wisdom teeth when I got them out (like 12ish years old) and just toughed that pain out. I have a very high pain tolerance. I guess it's kind of like my emotions too. I can tolerate a lot of shit before you'll annoy me, offend me, etc. I'm VERY reserved emotionally. I most likely feel something but I *hate* showing it. And the whole "figure it out for yourself" thing - goes for me saying I don't like to ask for help unless I've exhausted *ALL* possibilities *myself* and can't figure it out.

And of course I play tennis - so I can talk a little sports. I keep track of other sports. Not as intensely as tennis (and equestrian sports) but I can know the basic rules.

And I'm a total science nerd. Not terribly normal for women. And I *hate* romance novels.

I suppose "intellectual aloofness" sure - people ask what the hell I'm thinking sometimes or wonder what I do when I don't talk.

Argumentative? I have quite a strong will.

Us guys on the other hand, are screwed. Getting along with girls for me, is completely foreign. I am trying very hard to mimic socialization customs, body language, etc, in hopes of defeating my 24 year streak of not having a serious girlfriend. I've made good progress, but it's very difficult. Most girls have emotional needs of some kind, which I don't relate with too well and can sometimes not respect. I mean really, why should anyone need constant reassurance? It just reminds me of a child wanting attention from it's parents. Ugh... another topic I'm bitter about I guess.

Well....as for you 24 year streak, I'm pretty damn close at 20 years, maybe I should try harder? But that takes so much effort...and when it comes to socialness I like it to be relatively minimal... And I totally understand that on the emotional needs - and the not respecting the emotional needs sometimes. I'm that way with empathizing with women as I talked about a bit above. And I agree with you on the constant reassurance too....I can get along with guys - but - as an introvert and just not knowing social customs....i dunno...When I'm around them, and hanging out with them (like over spring break I was the last female left and had to hang back with the guys team) is fine...

Regardless of who's got it worse off, the biggest hurdle we all have is meeting people. I don't think INTJs are good at that... at all :/ This is apparently one of the things our personality types has big problems with... or our 'Achilles heel' as one write up put it. In short, I think we're all doomed. Just remember to be doomed with a smile.

haha I like that "Just remember to be doomed with a smile"
I agree with you again though, Guido.

I is stopping haha. I think I'm rambling. But yeah. That's sort of my opinion. Not sure if I went off personality traits or not, but at least how I feel...

[Stopharian]

I've never encountered a female INTJ in the wild.

[thegnat]

What? you mean we're so crazy that our natural habitat is the wild?

[Stopharian]

What? you mean we're so crazy that our natural habitat is the wild?

All creatures reside in the wild, but sometimes they encounter each other in other places.............such as here.


But I guess I just mean that I dont happen to know any female INTJs IRL. To be fair I only know one real live INTP gurl, but I know tons of INFJs and INFPs.

I'd like to meet one of these INTJ women and see how they compare, perhaps examine one at close range.

[OneBadMother]

I know one INTJ female, but though she's my friend/acquaintance, I don't know her all that well. Then again, I only know a grand total of two INTJs in person in general.

Most of the people I know are S. I've known three ENFPs for certain, and I suspect my other friend is also an ENFP. Gah, too many!

[thegnat]

@stopharian: I figured you meant that - but that just set me up so well it was hard not to take....

"examine one at close range" and the "in the wild" hehe - makes me feel like a hmm....what do you call those animals they study? ah specimen haha. Don't worry I'm not taking offense, I'm just rather amused...

baha I'm 2/3 of a devil now with my post count...66....*evil grin*

[gwalchma]

Actually, once someone in my class who was my female team member cried on the phone. I was very forgiving; yeah it seems, I normally get the emotional one's or unstable. Be a man and take it all in.

I have a huge intolerance of people who openly cry when they're in a bad situation. I'm open to listening to their problems on the phone and giving them advice as needed, and if they start to cry a little part way through it's okay. But if they are crying and call me while they're crying I'd just freak out. First of all, the person is not in a state that allows any logical analysis of the problem, so she's just calling me to listen to her cry, and just I don't have the patience for it. I am not built to be anyone's emotional support, I'm built to be an advisor.


lol, I found this very funny. yeah, my basic instinct is take a chill pill; let them open up to you. No work has to be done, but the only thing is that you can slowly help admend the problems, listen to concerns, etc. As you said, I'm more the advisor; sure alot of people got problems. I always wondered, why come to me? Is there is invisible tag on my back says, "Hey, this dude here is quite and will take all your problems away?"

I agree with ya'll on this one. I think they do make those tags! I think I have had one on my back for years! Can't seem to shake it off!
Matter of fact, I feel like I spent my entire weekend listening to 3 of my female friends cry on my shoulder...2 of them literally did cry. Which I am open to for others, just not for myself nor for my son. Rule of my house is - never cry in public, i.e. anyone outside of the home.
Well, I let my dear friends unload, but since I have listened to it for too many times about the same subject; I let them have it and told them exactly what I thought they were doing wrong! All 3 of them...I had had enough! I thought for sure they'd get even more teary-eyed and then give me that look like I just killed their dog! But guess what?! They wanted more! Which for the most part was...stop the merry-go-round you're on and make a freakin' decision!!! One even said no one would have ever dared calling her out on a particular bad habit...but I will and that's why she loves me! Yeah, well, there's alot more where that came from if you want it!!! :)
Of course what I say I say in love and respect for my friends, but when that "big sister" voice comes out you better sit down and take it!

[mind_wander]

As you mentioned, the best rule of thumb is just plain listen. Inside, your thinking please stop crying, "Do you want a lollipop or something to cheer you up?" Having the invisible help me sign is not a bad thing because you are actually contributing to social society. Weird, how I just say that contributing to social society; when INTJ are more introverted and not extroverted. By using your method is basically the same, as mine's. Um let me see, if you make sense and using honesty; they will listen to you. Remember each person is different, so answering each person's differs from person to person. Sux, right; wish all the same answers can work for everyone.

Oh yeah welcome I am also new here.

[Bossy Mom]

I have always gotten along better with men than women. I have only had a few close female friends in my life. Right now I don't even have a close female friend. I have many acquaintances, but not close friends. Most females expect small talk, gossip, shopping trips, etc., and I can't stand it. Just give me a friend who like to talk about important things, like books , current events, and dachshunds.

[cielo market]

*Just give me a friend who like to talk about important things, like books , current events, and dachshunds.

Oh yeah, ya can't forget the dachshunds :)

[Solaris]

Heh. *The joys of being a woman. *I don't dress fashionably, but oh god, I love that show What Not To Wear. *My roommates sit around and happily be judgemental while watching that one.

I hate that show. I mean, did no one ever teach them about comfort or practicality?

Easily my most hated show of all time. I saw part of it once, then never again. It's so....catty and mean really. Leave people the heck alone and let everyone wear what they want. I don't run up to women who actually wear high heels (a very good friend adores them...why, I can't say) and tell them they decrease the respectability of all femaledom. In turn, if I choose to wear some wide leg jeans and a hoodie one day, then leave me alone. Um...I'm done ranting now.

[Aoiluna]

I always feel more comfortable with guys than females, and it has always been that way for as long as I can remember. I played with legos and my brother's toys, watched what he watched and played with his friends. I also started martial arts after he was in it for awhile, and have been doing that for 7 years now.

This, however is different when there are other females around. I feel like I dont know how to act because I am so different from them. very frustrating. it makes me tend to dislike my own gender a whole lot. i do however have 2 female best friends who I treasure a ton because for 5 years I have not been able to come across any other females that i can relate to in any way. its hard to find other females that are on 'your level' i guess you could say. i dont mean that arrogantly in any way, just that we are so different. My two female friends (the only females i really consider good friends) are INFP and ISFP. The only two females I could tell anything to, and I consider myself very lucky to have them. its probably the IP im thinking.

As far as meeting other intjs goes, my infj friend has many intj friends. he says that us intj's are too anti-social to meet each other.

As for girly things, I do keep my hair long and dress like a girl, but I will not ever wear pink, yellow, or pastels unless i have a reason to. I hate being ultra girly except for those special occasions. every now and then (like MAYBE twice a year) its fun and not so pain-in-the-ass. As for emotions, I hate crying in front of people. period. i would never do it for sympathy or attention. i think that crying makes me feel vulnerable and I dont do it often. If I start to tear up from something other than a great powerful movie, i usually tell myself to suck it up and deal with it another way....like solving the problem. I am moody, but i try to cover it up.

I do intimidate people, but ive been told that being a blackbelt can do that to. im not one of those uber feminists on a power trip or anything, in fact im the complete opposite. i understand both point of views on almost everything, and even though im independent and dont need a man to do things for me, Im not going to freak out on them for doing something for me. I will jokingly, however.

Off on a little tangent here (sorry, slight add) but I think that some feminism or independence stems from many things that Ive heard men complain about. I am not saying in any way that this is men's fault nor am i hating on them. just making a point. its common to hear that women are a waste of time and money, gold diggers, etc. I feel that when a guy pays for me ( a friend, not a romantic interest) i need to pay him back, right? actually in relationships i feel the need to pay back. i have to stop myself often with that one. i think i feel this way because i dont want to be labeled as 'the one who mooched off" of people or whatever. im independent. i am doing better with not making a big deal out of it, however.

ok done for now

[coop52]

As a female who didn't really relate well to other females in high school (didn't really relate to males either for that matter), going to an all-female university has been almost like a carnival of horrors. Then I did the somewhat unthinkable- joined a sorority. I thought that it'd be good for me to learn how to deal with people better, plus the one I joined seemed awesome at the time. The sisters when I joined were a fairly mixed bunch of types, but most were pretty laid back and low maintenance. I had a lot of fun hanging out with other people for pretty much the first time in my life. I got really close to some of them; even after they've graduated I've kept in touch. But, things began to change all of a sudden. Now the sorority's made up of loud, materialistic, spontaneous, extroverted party girls. I feel left out, but it's so tiring for me to hang out with them. I don't have that much longer until I graduate, plus I don't want to quit something that I've started (too stubborn to quit!). As far as my classes go, I get along fine with others as long as they're intelligent. There's some that I want to slap when they say something stupid or when their cell phone goes off in class.

On being a girly girl, I used to not be one. I hated pink and refused to to be one of those cute trendy girls. I've since grown to like pink, but I still don't follow trends. I don't see the point in it, plus I'm fairly picky when it comes to clothes and shoes. I wear what I like, not what's in style. I don't wear much makeup either. I hate sharing feelings and crying and stuff like that. I don't cry in front of others.

Someone in high school told me I was intimidating. I can sort of see how he could think that way. I didn't really have friends in high school because I didn't relate to anyone. I had almost nothing in common with my classmates. All the girls cared about boys and style, and all the guys cared about sports. I was the only nerdy kid, but I didn't really care. I thought they were all dumb anyway.

[WavesSootheMe]

<---------I've obviously read the same INTJ description as you, and it completely resonated with me. As did what you wrote below:

It's not that I'm trying to be mean though. In fact, I often think that I'm nicer (deep down) than most people I know. It's just that being rational can sound cold and openly talking about feelings or acting mushy makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I don't give the appropriate social cues people expect and I hate being chatty. When people come to me for help, rather than just listening or showing empathy, I go into fix-it mode or get annoyed if I think they're whining and not trying hard enough (and I'll tell them so). I think a lot of people just want someone who will listen and show sympathy.

I may be reserved in my sympathy, but that just makes it well-deserved when you get it. I am a kind person with no ill-intentions, but I'm, well, rational about how much and when I express that (whether or not the message gets across is a different story).

Some examples of interactions with girls: My roommate sent me a text not too long ago fishing for some support about something concerning her recent ex-boyfriend. My reply was prefaced with, "This probably won't give you warm fuzzies, but at least you know I'm not bullshitting you." When a girl comes to me crying, I automatically think "Oh god! A girl's crying! What do I do???" I, too, go into fix-it mode, when half the time they've already done what they can to fix it and they just want me to comfort them. It leaves me feeling useless and I don't like that feeling. When I was going through a bad break-up, I hated that my female friends tried to hug me in support. I just wanted to deal with it on my own and get on with my life. A hug does nothing for me except induce crying in front of people when I don't want to cry.

My physical appearance is girlish: slight frame, petite figure, and I do dress the part. I consider it all a part of presenting myself well. However, it didn't come naturally to me either. All of my clothes and hair tricks and make up tricks come from my younger sister. Although I generally initiate/make and keep friendships with more males than females, my interests keep me in fairly female saturated arenas. I was in girl scouts 1-12th grade: I like the challenges of earning badges/awards and I love camping. I joined a sorority (although in many ways it was almost an anti-sorority sorority). It was my attempt to not be a hermit in college. My temperament (esp toward silly traditions) wasn't always appreciated by a house full of women, but there were others like me. I took and left what I pleased, played by my own rules, and in the end was very glad for the experience. Also, I work in education. I've run into several problems with my coworkers. Here's my emo moment: "I feel so misunderstood," *sob* :). The female friends that I've kept are probably all NTs.

I think my main gripe is that these rational characteristics don't mean that I'm devoid of emotion or that I'm not a girl. I am a girl and I do feel things. I just don't express/deal with those aspects of myself in a way that many expect.

[Laurel]

when i was kid, my parents definitely didn't know how to handle me. my mum, who's an ENFJ, actually told people i was autistic once at a party. i also used to get screamed at for remaining calm whenever i was being disciplined (which was usually for disciplining my parents hah)

i used to be a tomboy in looks, not so much in athletics. whenever my mum would take me school clothes shopping, i would go straight to the boys dept. she wasn't happy about it, but occassionally obliged.

as i got older, i could tell that she was questioning my sexuality because i never got 'boy crazy' or really involved in any 'feminine' activites. i took my muslim best friend samia (who's a girl) to my high school prom because her parents weren't going to let her go unless he brother accompanied her--my mum practically had a coronary.

now as an adult, my mum and i get along very well. my personality just was so 'weird' to her, that she thought something was wrong w/ me, but i turned out well enough.

relationships have been a little tough. my current boyfriend is an ENFP and we kinda have one of those 'love to hate you' relationships. at best, we balance one another out but i know it bothers him that i wear the pants in the relationship. i catch him lying to me a lot and when i asked him why he even bothers (i can pretty much recall an entire conversation word for word from memory, there is NO bs'ing me) he replied that 'i don't have feelings' and if he were to open up to me, he would know that 'i have no sense of empathy' and 'wouldn't care if he were upset.' so he lies to try to upset me. that kinda was messed up and neurotic, but i know that is a problem w/ me. i suffer from fortress face and that's not exactly received well in women.

[Gabrielle]

In my case... I changed over the years. In my young childhood my mum dressed me, so I was decked out in frills. As I started to choose my clothes (pre-teen years), I tended to get into black clothes. I still like them... I just use black apparel differently. Black turtleneck with red belt, for instance. Or black blazer with shocking pink shirt underneath.

Now that I'm leaving my teenage years soon, I guess I've become much more feminine. I never cut my hair properly (it's long enough for me to sit on it), but a summer modeling got me very conscious of how I look. My ex-boyfriend also changed me slightly, making me enjoy doing things for him. I baked for him, cooked for him, and I liked doing it. I liked wearing skirts and heels, especially because he was taller than me even when I wore heels (I actually like them, btw).

I wasn't really interested in my classmates period. All my interests were slightly older than me by about two years. I didn't get along with them very well... I had a large mouth and I was caustic. Now I'm a little better, though.

[Paul V]

I have just one quick question for you, girls:

Where on Earth are you hiding?

(Just joking here, not expecting a real answer)

[Bossy Mom]

I haven't known many other INTJ females except one where I work. Sometimes I can stand her. She can be warm and giving, but also stubborn and a taskmaster. I sometimes wonder if others see me that way. I know that when we were identified as INTJs in a seminar, neither of us could tolerate the other types.

[Headstrong]

I also have a different way of thinking than most women. Kind of a different life strategy so to speak. Well one person called me "dude-like" with an opinion I had on something. But anyway - I'm of the "tough it out, figure it out for yourself" mentality where most women I feel will complain and ask for help before they even try and figure it out sometimes. I don't take pain killers unless I'm in *serious* pain or just plain miserable due to pain. You know I'm in serious trouble if I actually take a pain killer - I didn't take one for my wisdom teeth when I got them out (like 12ish years old) and just toughed that pain out. I have a very high pain tolerance. I guess it's kind of like my emotions too. I can tolerate a lot of shit before you'll annoy me, offend me, etc. I'm VERY reserved emotionally. I most likely feel something but I *hate* showing it. And the whole "figure it out for yourself" thing - goes for me saying I don't like to ask for help unless I've exhausted *ALL* possibilities *myself* and can't figure it out.


I am the exact same way. My mother is an ESFJ I believe and she does not understand why I do not ask for help or take pain medications. It's just my way of being stubborn and strong. I hate asking for help, but if I'm really desparate, I will. As for the pain, the less dependent I am on pain medications the better. INTJs? Dependent? I think not.


when i was kid, my parents definitely didn't know how to handle me. my mum, who's an ENFJ, actually told people i was autistic once at a party. i also used to get screamed at for remaining calm whenever i was being disciplined (which was usually for disciplining my parents hah)

i used to be a tomboy in looks, not so much in athletics. whenever my mum would take me school clothes shopping, i would go straight to the boys dept. she wasn't happy about it, but occassionally obliged.

as i got older, i could tell that she was questioning my sexuality because i never got 'boy crazy' or really involved in any 'feminine' activites. i took my muslim best friend samia (who's a girl) to my high school prom because her parents weren't going to let her go unless he brother accompanied her--my mum practically had a coronary.

now as an adult, my mum and i get along very well. my personality just was so 'weird' to her, that she thought something was wrong w/ me, but i turned out well enough.

relationships have been a little tough. my current boyfriend is an ENFP and we kinda have one of those 'love to hate you' relationships. at best, we balance one another out but i know it bothers him that i wear the pants in the relationship. i catch him lying to me a lot and when i asked him why he even bothers (i can pretty much recall an entire conversation word for word from memory, there is NO bs'ing me) he replied that 'i don't have feelings' and if he were to open up to me, he would know that 'i have no sense of empathy' and 'wouldn't care if he were upset.' so he lies to try to upset me. that kinda was messed up and neurotic, but i know that is a problem w/ me. i suffer from fortress face and that's not exactly received well in women.

My mother will stand in the corner out of sight from my dad while him and I are having an argument and whisper "SAY SOMETHING!!!! SAY SOMETHING!!!!!" She doesn't get that I need to take in what he's saying first, let him get it all out, and then say what I need to say. Both of them think I'm just ignoring what is being said and shrug it off. That is the farthest from the truth. I guess it's partly due to the blank stare I give.

I love the boys department...still do. I'm also a sucker for athletic wear. Boys have always had better stuff. I remember going to Burger King or McDonalds and being extremely envious of the boys' meal toys. I was stuck with the stupid barbies. >.<

My mom has questioned my sexuality. More so, it has been my friends. They've even asked if I was asexual! Coming from a close friend who was completely serious, I found it incredibly insulting.

As for boyfriends, I've always worn the pants. They have known it, too. I'm such a control freak when it comes to the physical department. Being unemotional doesn't help.

[Greeny]

I do have a few female friends, although have found it easier to have male friends. That has presented the problem of other females seeing me as a threat if Iam friendly to thier husband.They can't imagine that I can be just a friend! Aghhh!!! It also has been a problem that if I'am interested in a single male friend he see me as "just a friend". Needless to say Iam 55 and single.
My female friends do tend to turn to me if they need information or help to seperate emotion from fact. I have to laugh at times as they will ask me 1st and seem to think Iam some sort of font of all knowledge.

[The Rose]

I don't know if I know another INTJ female, though there's a gal in my Bible study who I figured out so far is INxJ. She could turn out to be T, but I think she's F. She uses a sophisticated vocabulary, and many INFJs I have seen online are like that - and deeply intelligent. So I don't know yet. But she wears slacks and a sweatshirt, like I do most of the time.

I wear a dress sometimes because I know in our society it is respected for certain occasions. I don't like wearing a dress and letting my legs get freezing cold, but I do it if I need to.

[BlackHawk]

I have never met another INTJ. Period. My best friend is an xNxJ . . . really borderline on a lot of things.

[HeterodoxRobot]

I love talking about ideas.
I hate talking about people.
A person not interested in people, that's funny.

[Firelie]

A person not interested in people, that's funny.

And now you have to back that up with why you think it's funny. :)

[The Rose]

And now you have to back that up with why you think it's funny. :)I think he means it's ironic, since I am a person.
But it reveals the true plight of the INTJ.

An ENFP can't possibly imagine not being interested in people.
And I can't possibly imagine an ENFP being willing to hurt my feelings that way.
Yet there he is.

Ah. She's a girl. Well maybe that explains it.

[GOD]

I think the T/F divide is essentially sexist and wrong as by implication is deems women not to have the T function because of the emphasis on detecting the F function.

[amei]

As an INTJ female, I have realized how fortunate I am to have another INTJ female as a friend. We can talk about "girly" topics like her relationship with her boyfriend in very non-girly ways, i.e. very logically and rationally without a big emphasis on emotions.
We also both share a hatred for the kind of girls who spend hours getting ready in the morning, constantly flirt, are afraid of getting sweaty playing sports, obsess over boys, and do all sorts of other stupid typical girl behavior.
I just hope I'm as lucky as her and find as great a boyfriend as she has who actually appreciates her intelligence, strength, and independence.

[dnatalia]

Hi everyone! I'm new to this board, but I wanted to introduce myself to my fellow INTJ females.

I wanted to jump in on this discussion about male vs. female friends, because it seems that I've had a very different experience than most of you. I've only ever had female friends, at least ones that I consider close. I'm acquainted with enough guys, but somehow I can't be comfortable enough around them to become close friends. One of my best friends is an ENTJ (female) and we just get each other, so that's nice. We can talk about most anything. My other close friends seem to serve very specific functions--there's my talk-about-school friend (she's a graduate student too and we bitch about it) and my talk-about-guys-and-sex-and-emotional-stuff friend (she's definitely an ExFx). I also get along really well with my mom (she's also an ExFx, I think).

Reading all your posts makes me think that I might really have something to gain from making a few male friends.

[Rei]

A person not interested in people, that's funny.

I don't get why that's funny.
That's what defines introversion...

[The Rose]

I don't get why that's funny.
That's what defines introversion...I think it was meant to be an insult.

[Tarrick]

Someone's insult female INTJs?! :scared:

Time to duck and cover! Everyone! DEFCON 2! Get in the choppa!

[WavesSootheMe]

I don't take pain killers unless I'm in *serious* pain or just plain miserable due to pain. You know I'm in serious trouble if I actually take a pain killer - I didn't take one for my wisdom teeth when I got them out (like 12ish years old) and just toughed that pain out. I have a very high pain tolerance. I guess it's kind of like my emotions too. I can tolerate a lot of shit before you'll annoy me, offend me, etc. I'm VERY reserved emotionally. I most likely feel something but I *hate* showing it. And the whole "figure it out for yourself" thing - goes for me saying I don't like to ask for help unless I've exhausted *ALL* possibilities *myself* and can't figure it out.

Wow, how many times have I uttered those exact words about, not just pain killers, but all medicine. It is a more typical "guy-like" attitude to just "tough it out." I find it interesting how you related it to your emotional tolerance. I have also uttered similar phrases about it taking a lot to piss me off and not asking for help until I'm sure that I can't do it on my own (no damsel in distress act here), but I've never made the connection that you did. Perhaps medicine can be likened to help that we'll only take when absolutely necessary. I've always rationalized my hesitation to take medicine by the unwanted side effects I've experienced in the past and the desire to not build up a tolerance so that the medicine will be there when I really need it.

[feralfae]

Oh, this is a good thread!
I am older and was married to a chap who was a total extroverted feeling person, and I always felt that I was the rational one -- I was! Fortunately, for while we had the roles for each of us fairly well worked out - he was the emotional one and I was the reasoning one who cleaned up all the messes and did all the rescuing. Then, I really got tired of carrying all the weight for all the emotional needs he had, when I barely even knew I had emotional needs of my own. Of course.

Now, I have been with another INTJ/P for a few years, and we are rational, loving, fun, quiet, have great "discussions" on a variety of subjects, learn a lot from each other, give each other a LOT of space and enjoy our time when we are doing things together, and he is decidedly more I and T than am I, so I feel very feminine in this relationship. Also, he does not need me to fill up all of his emotional neediness all the time. We just do a nice comfortable job of taking care of each other's emotional needs without any big hysterics.

I find myself drawn more to discussions men are having than those of women. I, too, find gossip and girl talk boring.

I think once we know who we are as individuals, it is easier to figure out what we want in our friends and partners. It took me a long time to realize I am much more comfortable and happy with someone more like I am, rather than opposite from me, which might be interesting for a while, but gets very wearing.

I love dressing up and being lovely when we go somewhere. Otherwise, I am pretty much a tomboy. Fortunately, I clean up okay.

[mind_wander]

Someone's insult female INTJs?! :scared:

Time to duck and cover! Everyone! DEFCON 2! Get in the choppa!
lol, You mean Defcon 1! Quickly find the emergency exits or hold on tight with your compatible personality partner [If there is any].

[INTJgal]

Oh, this is a good thread!
I am older and was married to a chap who was a total extroverted feeling person, and I always felt that I was the rational one -- I was! Fortunately, for while we had the roles for each of us fairly well worked out - he was the emotional one and I was the reasoning one who cleaned up all the messes and did all the rescuing. Then, I really got tired of carrying all the weight for all the emotional needs he had, when I barely even knew I had emotional needs of my own. Of course.

Now, I have been with another INTJ/P for a few years, and we are rational, loving, fun, quiet, have great "discussions" on a variety of subjects, learn a lot from each other, give each other a LOT of space and enjoy our time when we are doing things together, and he is decidedly more I and T than am I, so I feel very feminine in this relationship. Also, he does not need me to fill up all of his emotional neediness all the time. We just do a nice comfortable job of taking care of each other's emotional needs without any big hysterics.

I find myself drawn more to discussions men are having than those of women. I, too, find gossip and girl talk boring.

I think once we know who we are as individuals, it is easier to figure out what we want in our friends and partners. It took me a long time to realize I am much more comfortable and happy with someone more like I am, rather than opposite from me, which might be interesting for a while, but gets very wearing.

I love dressing up and being lovely when we go somewhere. Otherwise, I am pretty much a tomboy. Fortunately, I clean up okay.

you know there's no such thing as an INTx, right?
Have you studied the cognitive functions? The differences between INTJ and INTP are huge. There's such thing as INxJ, or IxTP, but no INTx.

[The Rose]

you know there's no such thing as an INTx, right?
Have you studied the cognitive functions? The differences between INTJ and INTP are huge. There's such thing as INxJ, or IxTP, but no INTx.When someone puts in an "x" it can also mean that they aren't sure yet if they are a J or a P.

Not everyone knows about the cognitive functions. I have been a fan of MBTI for over 15 years and I had never heard of it until I started reading on the forums a few months ago. Now that I have heard of them and recognize the names, it will take me a very long time before I feel like I actually believe I can recognize a function's behavior in myself or someone else.

[INTJgal]

When someone puts in an "x" it can also mean that they aren't sure yet if they are a J or a P.


That's why I was asking if you knew about the cognitive functions, so that if you weren't aware you could discover your type. Because if someone is uncertain whether they're INTJ or INTP it means they really don't understand a lot of core MBTI stuff.

[Tarrick]

you know there's no such thing as an INTx, right?
Have you studied the cognitive functions? The differences between INTJ and INTP are huge. There's such thing as INxJ, or IxTP, but no INTx.

The differences between INTPs and INTJs are big in some respects and small in others, same with all types. Some people are fairly balanced in J/P category, whereas some people are balanced in the T/F category and so on. Also the differences can depend on how the person applies him/herself to something and which functions they rely on.

[Rohsiph]

The differences between INTPs and INTJs are big in some respects and small in others, same with all types. Some people are fairly balanced in J/P category, whereas some people are balanced in the T/F category and so on. Also the differences can depend on how the person applies him/herself to something and which functions they rely on.

Generally, yes.

Specifically, the functions are topsy-turvey--resulting in fundamentally huge differences.

Ni works a lot differently than Ti, and Te is a much different way of approaching the world than is Ne.

It's being specific vs. categorizing in order to simplify . . . both offer insights. I prefer cutting into the heart of things, and believe simplification will often lead to problems if carried on in favor of specificity.

Apologies for carrying this tangent even further from the original topic, but I wanted to clarify ;)

[Tarrick]

I know that they work very differently, but an INTJ may utilize their Te a lot more then their Ni, and thus have more in common with a INTP that uses Ti a lot. That's what I was saying.

[xanodel]

Well, since I'm another female INTJ, I can relate quite a bit to the OP and pretty much what other people have said. I generally get along better with guys than with girls, whether as friends or casual acquaintances, however I also lucked out in that I've found other NT girls (and they are my closest female friends).

Maybe there's only one bit of difference. I don't like people coming to me and crying about stuff either, but I've learned to accept it. There's got to be a weird sign posted on my back that says, "Free therapist" which I've never gotten rid of. It's a bit strange at times, since I've had perfect strangers come up to me and tell me stuff that I think, are probably secrets. Other than the fact, to a couple of my friends, I'm the online/phoneline therapist. I suppose the only way I've been able to make sense of emotions, and why sometimes people (females included here) do the stupid things they do, is to try to dissect their minds, figure out their thinking pattern and fit everything into their thinking pattern, so it make some sort of twisted logic sense. (it doesn't, but hey I try) They seem to appreciate the fact I try to get in their brain and actually understand them (even if I don't), which kind of softens up my bluntness. That's the only trick I know of when it comes to dealing with people.

[Dr. Haight]

To everyone else, how do you perceive INTJ females? They're hot!

Well. . . one of them is, anyway.

EDIT: That was an awesome first post.

[mind_wander]

Maybe there's only one bit of difference. I don't like people coming to me and crying about stuff either, but I've learned to accept it. There's got to be a weird sign posted on my back that says, "Free therapist" which I've never gotten rid of. It's a bit strange at times, since I've had perfect strangers come up to me and tell me stuff that I think, are probably secrets. Other than the fact, to a couple of my friends, I'm the online/phoneline therapist. I suppose the only way I've been able to make sense of emotions, and why sometimes people (females included here) do the stupid things they do, is to try to dissect their minds, figure out their thinking pattern and fit everything into their thinking pattern, so it make some sort of twisted logic sense. (it doesn't, but hey I try) They seem to appreciate the fact I try to get in their brain and actually understand them (even if I don't), which kind of softens up my bluntness. That's the only trick I know of when it comes to dealing with people.

I am an INTJ male, I get the same thing; you are not alone.

[Jezebel]

They're hot!

Well. . . one of them is, anyway.

EDIT: That was an awesome first post.
Hmm... I suspect you may be biased. :suspicious:

[feralfae]

you know there's no such thing as an INTx, right?
Have you studied the cognitive functions? The differences between INTJ and INTP are huge. There's such thing as INxJ, or IxTP, but no INTx.

Thank you, yes, I understand you comment, but do not fully comprehend your perception of the practically absolute dichotomy between J and P. Several years ago, I was actually studied by a group of Harvard psychologists because of my unique learning style ~~ and unique problem-solving style as well. Besides being an INTJ or INTP, both of which are unique, I am also in Intertel and a mathematician as well as a studio artist. I divide my time fairly equally among being a writer, ceramic artist, applied and theoretical mathematician, and outdoor enthusiast. I have also done quite a bit of research and work with and for ETS on identification of giftedness in children and on the unique problem-solving and perception set of skills and cognitions among gifted individuals. Yet, I know I have much to learn in many areas of knowledge, and thus thank you for pointing out your personal perception of a perceived and published common standard of differentiation for P and J cognition functions.

[INTJgal]

Well, the Temperament argument (grouping types as SJ, SP, NF, NT) would argue that all NTs are motivated by the need to be seen as a genius, driven by competency, etc. so I think the motivations would be very similar...

but all a J or P label in your 4 letter type stands for is the orientation of the other three letters (all of which give meaningful information to "who you are").

J or P simply orients the other 3 either inwardly or outwardly.

So the INTJ would have their INT oriented by the J function, making them dominant Ni, secondary Te, and tertiary Fi.

The INTP would have their INT oriented by the P function, making them Ti, Ne, Si (? i think this is how the introverted P order goes? the 1st 2 are right).

Meaning, the internal world, where the introvert "lives" is immeasurably different. Ni and Ti are totally different ways of "being". and Te and Ne are entirely different ways of interacting with the outer world.

So, while the two INTx types may have similar motivations, they are wired entirely differently.


However, the INFJ is not wired that differently than the INTJ. Their internal world is quite similar.

Just like the INTP is very similar to the ISTP in their introverted world.

The INTJ and INTP have very little in common with their internal worlds and their external worlds.

Although, of course, they are both NT motivated, and introverted people. This is what I understand to be their only similarities. Which, from interacting with my two INTP friends, is very different than myself and my INTJ friend.

[feralfae]

Of course some of might state, rather, that we motivated by the need to be acknowledged as the genius we are. :-)
Yes, I understand about the orientation as well. I find that my orientation changes diametrically depending on what part of my life I am living, not to imply that I am broadly multi-faceted nor different from several other people whom I know, because I am not: we are quite similar, actually.
I must think more on this, and I thank you again for providing more information on the distinctions perceived between P and J. Perhaps the fact that I wish to arrive at my own independent conclusion concerning this particular state of being and its variables plants me firmly in one camp or the other. :-)

[The Rose]

Of course some of might state, rather, that we motivated by the need to be acknowledged as the genius we are. :-)
Yes, I understand about the orientation as well. I find that my orientation changes diametrically depending on what part of my life I am living, not to imply that I am broadly multi-faceted nor different from several other people whom I know, because I am not: we are quite similar, actually.
I must think more on this, and I thank you again for providing more information on the distinctions perceived between P and J. Perhaps the fact that I wish to arrive at my own independent conclusion concerning this particular state of being and its variables plants me firmly in one camp or the other. :-)You can learn more about it here:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[rwyatt365]

I've moved the "shopping-related" posts to this thread (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[Jenny Penny]

I definitely have trouble relating to most females. People seem put off or uncomfortable around me... I know it's because I always walk around with a very serious look on my face. There's an ESFJ secretary who sits across from me at work, who is very friendly to everyone else around here, except me! I have to admit, it makes me mad and sort of hurts my feelings. She is older, so she is probably offended by my "rebellious, non-feminine" behavior. After all, she goes home every night and cooks and cleans for her husband, who just sits there like a bump on a log watching sports. Once I feel comfortable that a female isn't going to get catty with me, I can let my guard down and be myself. Also, it seems most females prefer to talk about issues that don't interest me at all. Anyway, I usually can't make female friends in a purely social situation (although I would like to), unless the females are really outwardly nice and accepting. Otherwise, I get paranoid they don't like me, and I just want to escape. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I get along best with my sister (INTJ) and a female friend (ISTJ) who are really smart, serious girls and both great listeners.

[The Rose]

I definitely have trouble relating to most females. People seem put off or uncomfortable around me... I know it's because I always walk around with a very serious look on my face. There's an ESFJ secretary who sits across from me at work, who is very friendly to everyone else around here, except me! I have to admit, it makes me mad and sort of hurts my feelings. She is older, so she is probably offended by my "rebellious, non-feminine" behavior. After all, she goes home every night and cooks and cleans for her husband, who just sits there like a bump on a log watching sports. Once I feel comfortable that a female isn't going to get catty with me, I can let my guard down and be myself. Also, it seems most females prefer to talk about issues that don't interest me at all. Anyway, I usually can't make female friends in a purely social situation (although I would like to), unless the females are really outwardly nice and accepting. Otherwise, I get paranoid they don't like me, and I just want to escape. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I get along best with my sister (INTJ) and a female friend (ISTJ) who are really smart, serious girls and both great listeners.
I'm not sure about this, but I have an ESFJ sister-in-law and have met other ESFJ women. For the most part they are mostly very friendly and helpful. What you see is what you get. I'm sure she would talk to you if you initiated the conversation. They tend to avoid conflict and perhaps she has sensed something from you. I don't know.

You don't want to develop a deep friendship with her, and casual conversation is usually annoying to an INTJ, but I think you'd like her if you got to know her a little bit.

If it's making you feel bad that she doesn't talk to you, then start a conversation with her.
If you need help with something or have a question about something, I'm sure she will bend over backwards to help you.
If you are having a cooking or cleaning problem, I'm sure she will be a wealth of advice.

[kimba]

Are INTJ guys really interested in INTJ girls - - - like actually for a relationship not just as a discussion partner? If so, I think that is great. How would you suggest a girl pursue this?

I'm breaking out of this shell - I'm going for it - I WANT A RELATIONSHIP!!! I want to be able to be who I am - and have someone love me.

I want someone who will bring me a glass of OJ when I'm not feeling well. Someone who will stop for milk on the way home (even when it's raining). Someone to talk with and contemplate things with. An interesting, hardworking, good thinking guy! I am ready to stop saying I am content alone. (I was for years). I'm ready to take a chance. Of course I will be analyzing the experience every step of the way, but feel I want to add some meaning to my life. Yes my life is meaningful - but in a different way.

I'm ready for a change. . . . Now that I've put it out there . . . what if the opportunity doesn't come along? (fear). Is there anything I can do to find a special someone.

[Paul V]

Are INTJ guys really interested in INTJ girls - - - like actually for a relationship not just as a discussion partner? If so, I think that is great. How would you suggest a girl pursue this?

I'm breaking out of this shell - I'm going for it - I WANT A RELATIONSHIP!!! I want to be able to be who I am - and have someone love me.

I want someone who will bring me a glass of OJ when I'm not feeling well. Someone who will stop for milk on the way home (even when it's raining). Someone to talk with and contemplate things with. An interesting, hardworking, good thinking guy! I am ready to stop saying I am content alone. (I was for years). I'm ready to take a chance. Of course I will be analyzing the experience every step of the way, but feel I want to add some meaning to my life. Yes my life is meaningful - but in a different way.

I'm ready for a change. . . . Now that I've put it out there . . . what if the opportunity doesn't come along? (fear). Is there anything I can do to find a special someone.

I have to admit I used to think the same way. But after doing some observation on the subject, I had to ask myself the question: "Is there really someone that's worth the suffering that comes from relationships?" Thinking that it will always be that rosy "just in love" state is foolish. Thinking that they will always be good is foolish. Wouldn't it be preferable to just stay out of that pit of snakes? I myself haven't been able to answer this myself, but I believe it is my duty as an INTJ to present you with all the options.





Paul V added to this post, 4 minutes and 36 seconds later...

I don't like people coming to me and crying about stuff either, but I've learned to accept it. There's got to be a weird sign posted on my back that says, "Free therapist" which I've never gotten rid of. It's a bit strange at times, since I've had perfect strangers come up to me and tell me stuff that I think, are probably secrets. Other than the fact, to a couple of my friends, I'm the online/phoneline therapist. I suppose the only way I've been able to make sense of emotions, and why sometimes people (females included here) do the stupid things they do, is to try to dissect their minds, figure out their thinking pattern and fit everything into their thinking pattern, so it make some sort of twisted logic sense. (it doesn't, but hey I try) They seem to appreciate the fact I try to get in their brain and actually understand them (even if I don't), which kind of softens up my bluntness. That's the only trick I know of when it comes to dealing with people.

This like looking at a mirror. My family insisted I would make an awesome psychiatrist/psychologist, and my best friend told me it was a pity I wasn't a religious person, because I had all the right qualifications to become a priest.

I have had to become a bitch with my classmates, because otherwise they wouldn't leave me alone with their whining. Usually, I don't mind being an advisor, but it becomes tiring to pretend you are interested in what a two-faced backstabbing traitor has to say to you.

[PortInStorm]

Be careful... a partner is a separate person who is completely uncontrollable. Except for companionship and possibly intimacy (physical, emotional, spiritual, but at times they won't be able to offer that either), we have no right to enter a relationship and expect them to do anything for us. Doing that will result in disappointment and resentment on your end. Don't expect fulfillment/meaning, help, constant support, etc. Imagine how you'd feel if (and I'm thinking you're female) someone posted they wanted someone who would cook, clean, do laundry for them, and mother them. They have their own lives to deal with that contain more issues than just us - BUT the companionship is great (as long as you pick a good one and they're more of a pain then a pleasure), and they can be strong in your weak areas. I'm not trying to pick on you (sorry if it comes across that way), but letting you know that some of the things you're looking for don't automatically characterize even a good relationship (I'm speaking from my experience in what I think is a good one- 8 years almost).

I think that's one reason everyone is so hooked on "compatibility"- I was. Perhaps everyone wants compatibility because that correct match should bring them the scintillating conversation, the intimacy, the meaning of a great relationship- but is that what a great relationship is? I wonder if we're asking too much. Even if we're asking instead more "grounded" criteria that they challenge us, make us better people, yada yada, it's like we're asking another person to somehow benefit or serve us for the rest of our lives. Is that fair- don't they have dreams themselves that don't have anything to do with us? Perhaps I'm now imagining marriage as two committed people walking together towards their goals (giving and taking in turns if need be), helping each other when they can, yet being prepared to make their own dreams come true so the other can do the same.





2ndtimestudent added to this post, 11 minutes and 45 seconds later...

Are INTJ guys really interested in INTJ girls - - - like actually for a relationship not just as a discussion partner? If so, I think that is great. How would you suggest a girl pursue this?

I'm breaking out of this shell - I'm going for it - I WANT A RELATIONSHIP!!! I want to be able to be who I am - and have someone love me.

I want someone who will bring me a glass of OJ when I'm not feeling well. Someone who will stop for milk on the way home (even when it's raining). Someone to talk with and contemplate things with. An interesting, hardworking, good thinking guy! I am ready to stop saying I am content alone. (I was for years). I'm ready to take a chance. Of course I will be analyzing the experience every step of the way, but feel I want to add some meaning to my life. Yes my life is meaningful - but in a different way.

I'm ready for a change. . . . Now that I've put it out there . . . what if the opportunity doesn't come along? (fear). Is there anything I can do to find a special someone.
Sorry, one more thing. Everyone wants those things you mentioned, and they're not bad to desire. But don't rule someone out because they don't give you that, don't think they can only come in a marriage, and if you get those things in a partner, don't expect it all the time or forever. And look at the other types too... every type can be a good partner when you don't expecting the constant intimacy/resonance that fellow NTs supposedly provide (and as I said, I don't think anyone can give that). If you make a decision based on what probably doesn't change (what would make a good business partner? Truthfulness, good relationship skill, good sense, good money management) instead of what certainly does (interests, sexual chemistry, looks, hey, even the mind), I don't think type matters since every partner will have flaws that drive you nuts.





2ndtimestudent added to this post, 6 minutes and 58 seconds later...

Thank you, yes, I understand you comment, but do not fully comprehend your perception of the practically absolute dichotomy between J and P. Several years ago, I was actually studied by a group of Harvard psychologists because of my unique learning style ~~ and unique problem-solving style as well. Besides being an INTJ or INTP, both of which are unique, I am also in Intertel and a mathematician as well as a studio artist. I divide my time fairly equally among being a writer, ceramic artist, applied and theoretical mathematician, and outdoor enthusiast. I have also done quite a bit of research and work with and for ETS on identification of giftedness in children and on the unique problem-solving and perception set of skills and cognitions among gifted individuals. Yet, I know I have much to learn in many areas of knowledge, and thus thank you for pointing out your personal perception of a perceived and published common standard of differentiation for P and J cognition functions.
See I can believe a unique set of problem-solving abilities for gifted kids since they all have a higher "g" (or overall intell) in common, but I'm not sure why people are so stunned that "logical" people could also be skilled in the arts. Perhaps it's the whole "right brain" "left brain" fiasco or a sense of unfairness :-) (What? They have to have a weakness for all that greatness!). But all the subskill grouping of "g" are positively correlated. And I'm not saying this as a "smart" person- I do not find myself the quickest or most original even in my class.

[The Ghost Agent]

Are INTJ guys really interested in INTJ girls - - - like actually for a relationship not just as a discussion partner? If so, I think that is great. How would you suggest a girl pursue this?

I'm breaking out of this shell - I'm going for it - I WANT A RELATIONSHIP!!! I want to be able to be who I am - and have someone love me.

I want someone who will bring me a glass of OJ when I'm not feeling well. Someone who will stop for milk on the way home (even when it's raining). Someone to talk with and contemplate things with. An interesting, hardworking, good thinking guy! I am ready to stop saying I am content alone. (I was for years). I'm ready to take a chance. Of course I will be analyzing the experience every step of the way, but feel I want to add some meaning to my life. Yes my life is meaningful - but in a different way.

I'm ready for a change. . . . Now that I've put it out there . . . what if the opportunity doesn't come along? (fear). Is there anything I can do to find a special someone.

The question of intensity and motivation is answered, but are you ready for a relationship? I'm assuming you've been in very few or perhaps, none at all even? Because from the sounds of it, it would appear that you lack experience with any relationship and never really gave it a proper chance. Not to mention the part where you finally come out of the "shell" and asking for suggestions in how one actually start a relationship. Many of the choices of wording in your post points heavily towards inexperience with any relationship. That is not to degrade you, but if that is true, then you have a long way to go.

The question of whether you are ready is even more critical should my observations and hypothesis be true. Beyond wanting someone to love you in return and do all the little things that some would consider to be "gushy love", do you know the steps and process it takes for a relationship to work? The problem with almost all INTJs is its inability to properly express itself at the start, but once a relationship does start, the emotions/F is probably more concentrated and intensive than any other type. That turns some INTJs off for fear of losing their rationality and giving in all too completely into their emotions, no longer maintaining full "control". Not only do you not need the motivation to start a relationship, but a plan and goal in which to achieve it and keep it alive. I've used this stepped process as an explanation in other forums and other people, so here it is.

Confidence - Required for any starting relationship. The "Game", ladder theory, etc. applies very differently to females. PARTICULARLY female INTJs which may tend to intimidate and turn off males which simply don't understand. You will have to turn off your I and be active socially. Social gathering places or conferences/clubs of like interests can be a start. You won't get anywhere without action, so use that J and make it happen!

Stability - Stability ranges in all variables. Mental (rational and not one prone to make random or irresponsible decisions), emotional (able to provide emotional support, understanding, and love), physical (healthy, takes care of themselves, and doesn't do anything that'll harm you and themselves on purpose), financial (job at least, house? financial future? his goals?), etc. This also serves as a precursor to trust and only to have it strengthened later by communication. Without the basic variables satisfied, it is very hard to maintain a relationship. I would highly advise not starting a relationship when someone is unstable in two or more of the categories listed. Usually I advise against starting it in any instability.

Communication - Crucial to continue building the trust factor and intimacy in a relationship. Without a completely opened channel of communication with one another, you can very well give up on the whole relationship. Trust requires communication and vice versa, so if it feels circular in logic, that's because it is. Communication is very crucial to developing intimacy in the later stages of a relationship when the "infatuation", "lusting", or the so called "fiery start" stage simmers down.

Intimacy - The final part of the process. No doubt this is where all the physical aspects of the relationship takes place, but it does not always have to be sexualized. Small favors such as the ones you've described, getting you a cup of OJ, doing special things that adds up over time. Such as a poem, card, a single rose left/delivered to your work place at a random time, rather than waiting for the typical holiday occasions. Intimacy can also be rekindled through a completely opened channel of communication, if you're both comfortable you should be able to express your desires, fantasies, wants, etc. If you can do that, you can satisfy one another at an unprecedented level over couples who are shy and rather close minded about the relationship's sexuality.

That about sums up the progressing stages, but the most important factor is your acceptance of failure. Not all relationships will start and become perfect from the get go. That's just Hollywood and fairy tales. Expecting your first or any immediate relationship to work right away, is simply too high of an expectation and you will certainly be disappointed. Perhaps the standards are too high? Someone can think of you as too low of a standard as well! A relationship is not just the merging of a couple's strengths and interests, but each other accepting the other's faults and still being able to look pass it.

And lets see... I think I just rushed everything relationship in a single sitting, but I've touched on the more overall/generalized setting so... I think I've covered mostly what you need to know.

[kimba]

I didn't mean to imply that the relationship would be one way, "Get me my OJ" "Bring me my slippers." I would like to have someone to support and encourage. A mutual caring about each other. I'm not thinking it will be wonderful all the time. I'm just willing to try something different then what I've been doing (living solo). Will it be worth it? I don't know on this side of it, but I am at the point where 'solitary' isn't working for me anymore. I want to share my life with someone. There are a few threads on here where people are saying, for them it was worth it. It's scary, but I'm willing to take a couple of steps, I just don't know what direction to walk in to meet good men.





kimba added to this post, 3 minutes and 22 seconds later...

By the way, your thoughts were very helpful. Confidence, Stability, Communication, etc. Action!! Thanks for putting your time into the well thought out response.

[Paul V]

I didn't mean to imply that the relationship would be one way, "Get me my OJ" "Bring me my slippers." I would like to have someone to support and encourage. A mutual caring about each other. I'm not thinking it will be wonderful all the time. I'm just willing to try something different then what I've been doing (living solo). Will it be worth it? I don't know on this side of it, but I am at the point where 'solitary' isn't working for me anymore. I want to share my life with someone. There are a few threads on here where people are saying, for them it was worth it. It's scary, but I'm willing to take a couple of steps, I just don't know what direction to walk in to meet good men.





kimba added to this post, 3 minutes and 22 seconds later...

By the way, your thoughts were very helpful. Confidence, Stability, Communication, etc. Action!! Thanks for putting your time into the well thought out response.

I advise you to craft a list of what you're looking for and be very, very picky. People can fake those things very well, and you shouldn't allow anyone in just because they're too good to be true. Most of the times, they are neither.

[Lucid]

The question of intensity and motivation is answered, but are you ready for a relationship? I'm assuming you've been in very few or perhaps, none at all even? Because from the sounds of it, it would appear that you lack experience with any relationship and never really gave it a proper chance. Not to mention the part where you finally come out of the "shell" and asking for suggestions in how one actually start a relationship. Many of the choices of wording in your post points heavily towards inexperience with any relationship. That is not to degrade you, but if that is true, then you have a long way to go.

The question of whether you are ready is even more critical should my observations and hypothesis be true. Beyond wanting someone to love you in return and do all the little things that some would consider to be "gushy love", do you know the steps and process it takes for a relationship to work? The problem with almost all INTJs is its inability to properly express itself at the start, but once a relationship does start, the emotions/F is probably more concentrated and intensive than any other type. That turns some INTJs off for fear of losing their rationality and giving in all too completely into their emotions, no longer maintaining full "control". Not only do you not need the motivation to start a relationship, but a plan and goal in which to achieve it and keep it alive. I've used this stepped process as an explanation in other forums and other people, so here it is.

The best way to learn about relationships is to have a few. If she has decided that she wants one, then she's ready to have one. It may not be the relationship... but it is a step in the learning process and that she'll probably get more out of than sitting in her apartment making lists and reading posts by people explaining relationships to her.
Not that these things are detrimental to the process, just that IMO, the best way to learn about relationships is through experience and then reflection on that experience.

[Paul V]

The best way to learn about relationships is to have a few. If she has decided that she wants one, then she's ready to have one. It may not be the relationship... but it is a step in the learning process and that she'll probably get more out of than sitting in her apartment making lists and reading posts by people explaining relationships to her.
Not that these things are detrimental to the process, just that IMO, the best way to learn about relationships is through experience and then reflection on that experience.

I disagree. That's not a piece of advice you can throw around without taking into consideration the personality of the receiver. Some people are emotionally tough and heal fast. Some people truly care about others when they're in a relationship, and the break-up process hurts them deeply. I think she should ponder very carefully whether she just wants company, no strings attached, or a deep, meaningful relationship. She can't (and shouldn't) hold her feelings back in the latter, while that would be the proper course of action for the former.

[Lucid]

I disagree. That's not a piece of advice you can throw around without taking into consideration the personality of the receiver. Some people are emotionally tough and heal fast. Some people truly care about others when they're in a relationship, and the break-up process hurts them deeply. I think she should ponder very carefully whether she just wants company, no strings attached, or a deep, meaningful relationship. She can't (and shouldn't) hold her feelings back in the latter, while that would be the proper course of action for the former.

I would say that most people who are emotionally stable and healthy are able to get over bad and especially painful breakups. I think these breakups are a part of life and, in my personal experience, are cause for the more personal growth than any other single life event.
Just because it hurts, and may hurt for a long time when it's over, doesn't mean that it's something that should be avoided. One of the things that we learn and grow from is emotional pain. A life spent avoiding this kind of pain to the exclusion of romantic or platonic relationships is, in my opinion, a waste. It's like refusing to leave one's house because one might be hit by a car while crossing the street.

Some people are emotionally tough and heal fast. Some people truly care about others when they're in a relationship, and the break-up process hurts them deeply.

I think most people truly care about others when they're in a relationship.
Speaking from personal experience, I care very deeply for the people I have been in relationships with. In one relationship I was head over heels in love with the other person. That relationship ended and it completely broke my heart. It hurt A LOT and it took me about a year and a half to completely get over it. It was also one of the single greatest things that has happened to me, both the relationship itself and the subsequent pain of the loss of that relationship. I grew a lot, learned a lot and had a really good time while the relationship lasted.

[rwyatt365]

I advise you to craft a list of what you're looking for and be very, very picky. People can fake those things very well, and you shouldn't allow anyone in just because they're too good to be true. Most of the times, they are neither.
Paul's suggestion is good, take time and think about what you're looking for in a mate. Personally, I don't like amking lists, but do what works for you. I'd just add one caveat; leave yourself some leeway in the traits that you're looking for. If you make your "list" too exact, too specific, you may rule out so much of the available population that you'll never find anyone that will meet your "criteria".

Then, once you know what you're looking for...GO LOOKING! :lovestruck:
As Lucid says;
The best way to learn about relationships is to have a few. If she has decided that she wants one, then she's ready to have one. It may not be the relationship... but it is a step in the learning process and that she'll probably get more out of than sitting in her apartment making lists and reading posts by people explaining relationships to her.
But when you do, keep your eyes open and take your time. I'd guess that you are relatively young so there is plenty of time to make good choices. Your intuitive side will know when you've found a good match (it'll also let you know when you haven't - even when it looks good), trust your "gut".

But, you probably will make a mistake or that perfect relationship might not last. It's not the end of the world, it's the start of a new adventure.
I would say that most people who are emotionally stable and healthy are able to get over bad and especially painful breakups. I think these breakups are a part of life and, in my personal experience, are cause for the more personal growth than any other single life event.
Just because it hurts, and may hurt for a long time when it's over, doesn't mean that it's something that should be avoided. One of the things that we learn and grow from is emotional pain. A life spent avoiding this kind of pain to the exclusion of romantic or platonic relationships is, in my opinion, a waste. It's like refusing to leave one's house because one might be hit by a car while crossing the street.
Don't be afraid of hurt, and don't be afraid of joy. They're out there - go find it!

[banzai]

I would agree with Lucid here... although I'm sure we'd like to approach relationships like a game of chess--carefully planning the first moves--the fact of the matter is that everyone is different and the only way to figure out what you want is to get out and actually try dating.

This way, it is a process of refinement, not a 'make a list and sit around wasting time while nobody meets it'.

Thats my take on it, anyways, but then again I've always been more of a hands-on learner.

[Lucid]

I would agree with Lucid here... although I'm sure we'd like to approach relationships like a game of chess--carefully planning the first moves--the fact of the matter is that everyone is different and the only way to figure out what you want is to get out and actually try dating.

This way, it is a process of refinement, not a 'make a list and sit around wasting time while nobody meets it'.

Thats my take on it, anyways, but then again I've always been more of a hands-on learner.

Yeah.

I mean, making lists and thinking about what you want isn't a bad thing, necessarily. But I think you learn the most (when it comes to relationships) by having relationships.

[kimba]

Thank you all for your input. I have a good internal sense of what/who I am looking for - a broad sense. My instinct is to just start accepting more invitations when my first response would previously have been to say 'no'. I would be attracted to:
- a Christian man (my faith is important to me)
- Employed in a career in which he gets a sense of satisfaction or is at least looking for that. Someone who is miserable in their job, but not doing anything about would be difficult.
- Has goals and of course wants me to have goals
- Intelligent and can think/talk things through
- Kind, Generous

Someone made the comment about my being young. I can see how you would get that idea from the lack of relationships, but believe it or not I will be 40 in a few days.

[rwyatt365]

Someone made the comment about my being young. I can see how you would get that idea from the lack of relationships, but believe it or not I will be 40 in a few days.
Kimba, that was me and I got that impression based on the tone of your original post. Hope I didn't offend you in any way.

BTW - I'm an "old geezer" of 50+, so you still are a "youngster" in my eyes! Also, HAPPY (early) B'DAY!! :thumbsup:

[kimba]

Kimba, that was me and I got that impression based on the tone of your original post. Hope I didn't offend you in any way.

BTW - I'm an "old geezer" of 50+, so you still are a "youngster" in my eyes! Also, HAPPY (early) B'DAY!! :thumbsup:

Oh, thanks. I was not offended at all. In terms of relationship experience I know I am quite young. I am very much enjoying the process.

[blueeyedsusan]

I found out I am an INTJ when I took a class, the professor stared at my chest the whole time he was explaining what that meant. That irritated me and at the same time I found it kind of funny. He was ruled by his genitals.
My being an INTJ explained so much and knowing this allowed me to accept me.
I know I am female. I know I am heterosexual because watching porn involving woman having sex with each other doesn't make me "horny" Yes, I analyzed my feelings. I remember on a TV program one time a woman said she knew she wasn't a lesbian because when she fantasizes she thinks about going down on men (it was said more crude than that) The point is that had to have been written by an INTJ.
Yes I do believe female and male definitions revolve around sex.
I think INTJ's learn about everything and want to be the best even with sex.
I know I like to look good, but I make that a scientific endeavor. Makeup is about analyzing colors and my face and coming up with the best way to enhance my features. I research makeup and get what makes sense for me with my skin coloring etc. I hate shopping for clothes but like to look good.
My children, I love being a mom. I want my children (who are now grown) to be themselves, to question and to learn. My grown sons feel free to tell me anything, and people find that strange. I am not controlling with other people. I like fairness and hate hypocrisy and liars. I often say things like "that makes sense" or "that doesn't make sense".
I like being an INTJ and I like being a woman.

[Windmill]

To the INTJ females: what has your experience been like being an INTJ female? Do you have trouble relating to other females?

Do you agree with this:

To everyone else, how do you perceive INTJ females? Do you find them more or less appealing (either as friends or romantic partners) than the typical female?

(I'll answer this too, I just don't want the first post in this thread to be about me)I find immense trouble relating to females.

I don' know whether its an INTJ thing or not, though :)

I don't care about makeup, looking "pretty" and what not, which is a large cause of the conflict. I don't think anyone who does is stupid- good looks are an asset- but its an asset I don't really have much of a desire for- I just don't want to think about it, I get lost in my head, and I don't have time to put on makeup or pick my clothes out to look good- nor do I want these things because a lot of the time, it is not practical.

I want COMFORT, things that won't stop me from doing things (e.g. I like to run everywhere- I don't care that everyone perceives it as stupid, its faster than walking!) and most "nice" shoes are NOT good for that- give me old beaten up sneakers any day.

At the same time people comment that I'm different from most females because I am rational. I am willing to look at mistakes I made, apologise (even if it hurts me ego) and improve. I'm not stupidly stubborn, things don't have to be my own way, they just have to be the best way. Even if thats not my way. And most girls, at least my age, are not like that, it seems they can never be wrong and one must agree with them. And most guys are shocked to find that I am not like that.

Also, my interests in general a lot different. They are either more guyish (video games) or ones that are nerdy (e.g. debating) so I have some trouble relating to them interests wise, since I share zero interests with most girls.

Also, most girls conversations are a lot more personal and such. I tend to keep my conversation rather "cold" but lively. And if I can I, without even meaning to, steer it towards more serious topics and much more in depth discussion, in which I can appear pretty aggressive. It seems a lot of girls take me saying "But such and such is true" as "I am not open to being convinced such and such isn't true, this is true no matter what" and they get very upset, and/or bored with the serious nature of the conversations and the debating and the analysing- I mean guys do get annoyed with that too, but not so much offended like girls do.

Romance wise- well, guys don't tend to be attracted to me. I don't exactly look ugly but I don't exactly work my figure either ;) but thats OK- also unlike most girls, getting guys isn't an issue for me, I have no desire. And if they don't like me for me, rather they are attracted to me via looks, well, UGH.

HOWEVER. For the few guys that have somehow fallen for me- they seem to fall hard. Not sure if thats just hormones or what. Its probably just hormones- but they have been NF's. :P

I have not ever met another INTJ girl. In fact, I have yet to meet another INT girl.

Oh, also, I get along better with guys than girls. For the first 6 1/2 years of my school life I went to an all-girls private school, which was a nightmare. I managed to find a few friends, which was good. Then I went to a co-ed school, and I made friends with LOADS of girls (all tomboys) then I went to a co-ed high school, and I've been making friends with guys. Right now, my two best friends at school at defiantly guys, but yet both are NF's, (my friend group consists of SJ's and NF's) so I dunno :laugh:

[thod]

Have you studied the cognitive functions? The differences between INTJ and INTP are huge. There's such thing as INxJ, or IxTP, but no INTx.

INTJ : Ni-Te
INTP : Ti-Ne


Ni -- Introverted Intuition (not Nickel, which I know is what you thought). Allows you to see ideas from different perspectives, as well as have unusual insights or hunches that are often useful. And for the last time, it does NOT make you psychic (normally).

Ne -- Extraverted Intuition. It thinks it's less of a nerd than Introverted Intuition. Kidding aside, this allows you to see patterns and connections in theories, see several possibilities in a situation, and make an annoying number of puns and play-on words.

Ti -- Introverted Thinking. Introverted thinking is always trying to uncover the specific rules that govern a system, and typically sees everything as a system. So basically, Ti nitpicks and criticizes everything from social conventions to grammar to government policies, and is fairly anti-social.

Te -- Extraverted Thinking. "Hey, work faster, you slacker! You're losing us time and money!" Extraverted Thinking is a blunt function that is results-oriented, much like that angry boss. Extraverted Thinking follows rules to the letter, and uses the most efficient procedure known to work that will get the job done.

So from this I assume the INTJ looks at the data from different angles with the objective of finding the set of rules most appropriate for manipulating the situation. The different angles part is an identification technique, the rules are selected from similar cases in memory.

The INTP runs through his internal models to find one that most closely matchs the data. Thus detail is not so important, it may be a wolf, but the closest match I have is dog, so its a type of dog. All the rules I know of interacting with dogs will be applied to the wolf until data shows otherwise. Then a new category of wolf can be formed.

Am an INTP myself so am not sure what INTJs do but this forum alone certainly confirms the stereotype from the MBTI descriptions.

[Merle]

I find I'm the opposite of most of the rest of you female INTJ's... all my closest friendships are with other women - I have a lot of guy friends too - but the friendships I get the most out of are my female ones -
THat said, I'm highly selective in who I actually allow to be my friend...
I think that my two best friends are most probably INFP and ENFJ...and I think I learn a lot about the feeling side of things from being friends with them...

[pavman]

...THat said, I'm highly selective in who I actually allow to be my friend...

Aren't we all? I mean, as I get older I find its like a dartboard... there's me in the center :o) and then the relationships are closer or farther from the center, depending on the nature.

I hate having to confront people when they cross a line if they aren't close enough to the center (well, not like an INFJ hates confrontation, that's fer shizzle)... of course, if they're really annoying and really distant, I don't warn them, I just avoid as much interaction as I can, so as not to put them down for their arrogance...meh.

Its even worse when I'm interested [romantically] in a woman who's sister/friend/whatever is an obnoxious a-hole...then I struggle with confrontation on the one hand or just letting it slide on the other so as not to displace the possibility of romantic involvement...

Thoughts?


pavman added to this post, 9 minutes and 32 seconds later...

...So from this I assume the INTJ looks at the data from different angles with the objective of finding the set of rules most appropriate for manipulating the situation. The different angles part is an identification technique, the rules are selected from similar cases in memory.

Rules? Hmm. Yes, this is true in any case where I have to use my understanding of physics to prevent my car from careening off the road, to prevent my death. Otherwise, there are no real rules. What you don't understand is that the rules are what we create, internally, for given criteria/situations. Then, when confronted with similar situations, we [or at least I] hold those situations up to the rules. If the situation warrants, the rule is changed. If not, then the situation is changed [well, you get the picture]. What I find really annoying about INTP types, no offense, is that they tend to hold others up to their standards but then, hypocritically so, don't hold themselves up to the same standards. At least INTJs tend to make rules and then hold everyone, including themselves, up to the same standard (or at least I do). This is just my experience w/ the few INTPs I've met, YMMV.

Just keep in mind that if the situation warrants it, the rules can change...

The INTP runs through his internal models to find one that most closely matchs the data. Thus detail is not so important, it may be a wolf, but the closest match I have is dog, so its a type of dog. All the rules I know of interacting with dogs will be applied to the wolf until data shows otherwise. Then a new category of wolf can be formed.

Wouldn't this get your hand bitten off?! See, with you the rules matter. With us, the rules only matter when they're suitable to achieving our goals. Ends doesn't justify the means, but its definitely more helpful to change the rules, then to change the goal, assuming we've perceived what that goal should be.

IMHO of course... I may be like a freak INTJ, but I'd be willing to wager a good number of INTJ folks agree with most of what I've written here.

[Uytuun]

I find I'm the opposite of most of the rest of you female INTJ's... all my closest friendships are with other women - I have a lot of guy friends too - but the friendships I get the most out of are my female ones

Same here. I seem to get along better with guys in general and in a more immediate way, but my most meaningful friendships are with girls. I learn a lot from my INFJ best friend.

I don't find that very surprising, I mean we are still women after all. ;)

[thod]

Wouldn't this get your hand bitten off?! See, with you the rules matter. With us, the rules only matter when they're suitable to achieving our goals. Ends doesn't justify the means, but its definitely more helpful to change the rules, then to change the goal.

Yep but I may recognise it is not quite a dog and therefore treat it with caution. You can bet a child would shout "doggy" and go over to cuddle it. In situations where things are not clear cut I will categorise them into an existing mental model even if they dont fit. Its takes deviances from that model to make me create a new category. So all stones fall down until I find one that falls up. Then there are down falling and up falling stones. A new reaction cause-effect relationship observed will create a new rule that applies to that category. Such as "stroke wolf" = "hand bitten"

[pavman]

Yep but I may recognise it is not quite a dog and therefore treat it with caution. You can bet a child would shout "doggy" and go over to cuddle it. In situations where things are not clear cut I will categorise them into an existing mental model even if they dont fit. Its takes deviances from that model to make me create a new category. So all stones fall down until I find one that falls up. Then there are down falling and up falling stones.

OMG! And I thought INTJs were weird! :p

Difference is, INTJs already know there's up and down falling stones, we just haven't proven it yet (or that there aren't up falling stones...).

I hadn't realized INTPs classify things in such a rigid manner. I associate things together, which helps in making visual flash decisions of which way to proceed, but I don't believe I actually classify data in any particular way unless I'm programming (and then I tend to think I'm massaging the code to get it to do what I want).

IMHO...INTPs think too much ;)

[Volition]

Definitely have trouble relating to other females. I can't fathom most of them. My all-girls' school was wonderful as you can imagine. I was 'cold', a 'man' for being technical, a 'loser' for knowing more about ancient civilisations than straighteners. There really were that many stereotypes there and it was supposedly a high-achieving school!

I was brash in the first years and wasn't afraid to air my grievances with people and paid for it. No matter what changes I made, looking back I know I'd wrecked it from the start.

I have actually learned to mask my INTJ-ness quite well in the past year, mainly spurned on by recent splits with people I viewed as close friends, who apparently took exception to the way I was. It was a shock for me. Mainly, I've generally adopted a more upbeat persona. I now know to shut up, halt the Fix-It routine and settle for a running commentary in my head. Basically, internalise everything more. I pretend to care about the Boy Down the Corridor and about how excited I am for when we all buy dresses for the March ball. Frankly, I've been isolated for long enough. I'm fine on my own but it doesn't mean I'm blind to the advantages with being more keyed-in.

University was a breath of fresh air for me as there are men here. I have had some of the best conversations with men, even though I don't know many. We generally tend to be on the same wavelength more than with the girls, with a lot less effort too. I like my factual, stick-to-the-topic conversations.

Fashion-wise, I'm no slave to the trends but I like to dress well. I won't wear pastels though. I have my limits.

[JTG]

Ni -- Introverted Intuition. Allows you to see ideas from different perspectives, as well as have unusual insights or hunches that are often useful.

Ne -- Extraverted Intuition.This allows you to see patterns and connections in theories, see several possibilities in a situation.

Ti -- Introverted Thinking. Introverted thinking is always trying to uncover the specific rules that govern a system, and typically sees everything as a system.

Te -- Extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking is a blunt function that is results-oriented, much like an angry boss. Extraverted Thinking follows rules to the letter, and uses the most efficient procedure known to work that will get the job done.

The only descriptor in that that doesn't closely resemble me is Te, the part about following rules to the letter. I looked around at some INTP descriptions, and they sound very similar to me, as INTJ do... Maybe i'm INTx? I know for a fact i'm introverted, intuitive, and thinking. I'm quick to judge and categorize things, but at the same time i like to figure out new workings of things as well, for the purpose of future categorization.

Geez, now you've given me an identity crisis.

[AgentofGaming]

I find immense trouble relating to females.

I don' know whether its an INTJ thing or not, though :)
...
Also, my interests in general a lot different. They are either more guyish (video games) or ones that are nerdy (e.g. debating) so I have some trouble relating to them interests wise, since I share zero interests with most girls.

Well for one thing it's not everyday I see women with a star wars avatar, especially ones with Darth Vader in them... :p

I have not ever met another INTJ girl. In fact, I have yet to meet another INT girl.
Women are more likely to be Feelers than Thinkers. That aside I doubt Introverts will specifically look for each other in real life. Who knows they could be someone you see in public but never spoke to. I wouldn't look through a hundred people to find an INTJ, that being said they'd probably be in their rooms doing something intellectual.

Oh, also, I get along better with guys than girls. For the first 6 1/2 years of my school life I went to an all-girls private school, which was a nightmare.
Along with the personality, being a guy will make it harder (feeling awkward posting in this thread lol). Most women see me as a boring guy that they will never understand. I will never understand those women either. :rolleyes:

Ni -- Introverted Intuition (not Nickel, which I know is what you thought). Allows you to see ideas from different perspectives, as well as have unusual insights or hunches that are often useful. And for the last time, it does NOT make you psychic (normally).

Ne -- Extraverted Intuition. It thinks it's less of a nerd than Introverted Intuition. Kidding aside, this allows you to see patterns and connections in theories, see several possibilities in a situation, and make an annoying number of puns and play-on words.

Ti -- Introverted Thinking. Introverted thinking is always trying to uncover the specific rules that govern a system, and typically sees everything as a system. So basically, Ti nitpicks and criticizes everything from social conventions to grammar to government policies, and is fairly anti-social.

Te -- Extraverted Thinking. "Hey, work faster, you slacker! You're losing us time and money!" Extraverted Thinking is a blunt function that is results-oriented, much like that angry boss. Extraverted Thinking follows rules to the letter, and uses the most efficient procedure known to work that will get the job done.
I think I associate way more with the introverted functions far more than any of the extroverted functions. Although I do like wordplay and results.

[Merle]

Definitely have trouble relating to other females. I can't fathom most of them. My all-girls' school was wonderful as you can imagine. I was 'cold', a 'man' for being technical, a 'loser' for knowing more about ancient civilisations than straighteners. There really were that many stereotypes there and it was supposedly a high-achieving school!

I went to all girls' schools too... well for the most part - 3 years in a mixed school abroad - and I didn't find this at all... actually quite the opposite, in comparison to girls at the mixed school I went to the atmosphere in the all girls' schools was very non-judgemental, I always felt totally free to behave, dress blah blah exactly how I wanted to ( ok ...not dress at one of them... that was an Ursuline Convent school - STRICT uniform rules) Whereas at the mixed school there was much more pressure to fit into the feminine stereotype and compete for the boys' attentions.

[Volition]

I went to all girls' schools too... well for the most part - 3 years in a mixed school abroad - and I didn't find this at all... actually quite the opposite, in comparison to girls at the mixed school I went to the atmosphere in the all girls' schools was very non-judgemental, I always felt totally free to behave, dress blah blah exactly how I wanted to ( ok ...not dress at one of them... that was an Ursuline Convent school - STRICT uniform rules) Whereas at the mixed school there was much more pressure to fit into the feminine stereotype and compete for the boys' attentions.

Interesting. That does make sense too. Perhaps it depends on just how isolated a single-gender school is, as we were close to a boys-only college and some did mix. Those who didn't 'network' well were looked down upon. So it was a bit of both experiences.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I didn't realize that my problem with women was my INTJness.
I just thought I hated women because my mother was a manipulative liar (ISTJ),
and my sister was the queen of denial (INFP).
I prefer honesty and openness.

I don't relate to "girly girls".
I don't mind the tomboyish gals so much.

The one type of female I CANNOT get along with is ESTJ.
I have broken relationships with 3 women and all 3 of them are ESTJs.
I can get along with ESTJ men okay.

I have read something similar to the statement you quoted.
I just assumed it was true.
I had to learn to be feminine. It didn't come naturally.

If there are 2 conversations going on in a room,
one is with a group of men, and one is with a group of women,
I would much rather go take part in the conversation the men are having,
just because the subject matter is bound to be more interesting to me.
I love talking about ideas.
I hate talking about people.
Funny my male partner is a terrible gossip.......I don't enjoy it. It makes me sad to hear women talking about other women this way. I wonder why I almost never hear men talking about other men this way?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 9 seconds later...

I guess I've always just totally ignored girls that I didn't find interesting. Most of my friends are girls, but they aren't stereotypical females.

I have said more than once that I find most moms to be annoying. I guess I couldn't just ignore them because that would have been rude.

I don't have to come into contact with stereotypical females much, because they just don't exist in engineering. Except maybe IE.

But I wouldn't say I feel out of step with just stereotypical females. I also feel out of step with stereotypical males, although I am more comfortable around them than the females.
Another sad reply.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 36 seconds later...

What can I say..........it seems every reply is the same...........devalue female relationships and thank god when men accept us into their exclusive little groups (now we're valuable).

Ever wonder why equality between the sexes is taking so long?

[Merle]

I literally don't think I could survive without my female friendships. I may be introverted and not prone to showing my feelings, but I certainly have them and sometimes find them hard to deal with/ frustrating... I would never be able to open up to my male friends, and while I find it extremely hard ,my two best friends (who are female) really actively help me to acknowledge my emotions and I find that invaluable.
I'm really not at all what you would call a girly girl, but I am very much a girl's girl... I'm quite suspicious of women who don't like other women actually.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I literally don't think I could survive without my female friendships. I may be introverted and not prone to showing my feelings, but I certainly have them and sometimes find them hard to deal with/ frustrating... I would never be able to open up to my male friends, and while I find it extremely hard ,my two best friends (who are female) really actively help me to acknowledge my emotions and I find that invaluable.
I'm really not at all what you would call a girly girl, but I am very much a girl's girl... I'm quite suspicious of women who don't like other women actually.
I'm so glad to hear this!!

[Uytuun]

I had another very interesting conversation with my...yes, you'll guess it...ESFJ mother today. She was trying to divide the world into men (ratio) and women (feelings) and men don't understand women and yada yada. So I go ahead and explain to her that there are different types of people (not specifically in MBTI context, because she doesn't "believe" in it :rolleyes:) and that there are different types of femininty and masculinity and that it's not because the majority of women share her way of experiencing femininity that there aren't other equally valid ways of being a woman. Her reply was "So you're like a man...maybe you'll bring a girl home one day? *awkward pause* Just kidding." I don't generally swear, but for fuck's sake...that reply really hurt me. I'm a straight woman and even INTJs need their identity to be minimally acknowledged by other people.

Like I've said somewhere else on this forum, I feel very feminine, but conversations like that do get to me.

Blaah.

This isn't just a problem of INTJ females, though, I can imagine that for some guys with traditionally female types, it has to be hard too.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I had another very interesting conversation with my...yes, you'll guess it...ESFJ mother today. She was trying to divide the world into men (ratio) and women (feelings) and men don't understand women and yada yada. So I go ahead and explain to her that there are different types of people (not specifically in MBTI context, because she doesn't "believe" in it :rolleyes:) and that there are different types of femininty and masculinity and that it's not because the majority of women share her way of experiencing femininity that there aren't other equally valid ways of being a woman. Her reply was "So you're like a man...maybe you'll bring a girl home one day? *awkward pause* Just kidding." I don't generally swear, but for fuck's sake...that reply really hurt me. I'm a straight woman and even INTJs need their identity to be minimally acknowledged by other people.

Like I've said somewhere else on this forum, I feel very feminine, but conversations like that do get to me.

Blaah.

This isn't just a problem of INTJ females, though, I can imagine that for some guys with traditionally female types, it has to be hard too.
I would veture a guess that the pain your mother caused you is not so much the content of her comment as the way in which she appeared to dismiss your ideas.

[Uytuun]

I was indeed also totally exasperated at her incapacity to even consider what I had explained.

[KandyKayne]

I do have trouble relating to other females as in INTJ. Most of my friends are male!

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I was indeed also totally exasperated at her incapacity to even consider what I had explained.
I wonder if she see you guys as a threat? Perhaps she is overwhelmed, being surrounded by this particular type and tries to 'put you in your place'. I don't agree that anyone, especially a mother, should deal with things in this manner, but I do wonder if this is what she is doing?

[Uytuun]

Hmmm...it's clear that no matter what she does, no matter how controlling her behaviour may be, she will never be able to touch the INTJs in the family. She essentially can't control us and she knows that. That's why she turns to my ESTP brother, who dislikes the control too, but is more susceptible than my dad and I are. I'm pretty sure that she's overwhelmed and that she gets defensive easily (she's outnumbered by Ts after all), but I can't tell if she really sees us as a threat. That episode didn't really have anything to do with me being a threat, I think.

She certainly feels that I am not the way a good daughter/woman ought to be and she tries to get me to behave the way that she perceives as "normal" from her ESFJ perspective, but I think that she means well in doing so. I don't think it comes from an inherent need to "put me in my place", at least not in the context of power distribution within the family. I can tell that she loves me, but it's obvious that we are conflicting types. It must also sting that my dad and I have a connection she doesn't have with him.

I in fact feel bad for her because she's the odd one out in the family, originally an ESFP (I suspect) gone J under my dad's influence, she has to swallow a lot of critique from us. And as you well know, they take that personal. It's just that the critique is never unfounded...she will do things like complain hysterically about person x one day and rave about how great that same person is the next day and then feel lik we've betrayed her when we point out the inconsistency in her behaviour. As a result of that, she seems to have taken up an aggressive stance towards us. Yeah, it did go completely wrong once we started realising that parents are only flawed creatures. ;) This in fact reminds me of something you mentioned in another thread: maturity and the ESFJ. They don't really seem to grow up and get a healthy perspective on their parents. My mum for one was totally close with her mother up to the point of cultivating some kind of reverence for how caring, giving and nurturing her mother was (see a pattern there?). It doesn't help in our relationship that when she was young, they always profiled her as the dumb but nice girl and her sister (who totally dominated her and is in general pretty evil) as the clever one. Apparently she has thoroughly internalised that dichotomy.

I've told her several times that accepting me the way I am will spare her a lot of pain and disappointment, but if she refuses to, then that's her problem.

This is way too long again.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Uytuun

Sounds like you really love your mom, but you two have a long way to go before you will accept each other. It seems that many mothers and daughters go through this sort of thing. I went through it with my first daughter and I'm having a similar, but much less dramatic experience with my second. I think that, in part, it is the natural movement away from a parent, but it probably also has alot to do with personality types and relatability.

Often when people don't understand the way you think they misinterpret your actions as something negative toward them.

PS My oldest daughter and I get along so well now........as long as we don't live together.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 0 minutes and 50 seconds later...

I do have trouble relating to other females as in INTJ. Most of my friends are male!
Shocking!

[qwiksilver]

Hmmm....looking at my phone list...three women...rest all men.

I really prefer the company of men. Make more sense and do interesting things. But I've been like that since childhood. The women I like to hang with are usually the bolder types.

[WavesSootheMe]

What can I say..........it seems every reply is the same...........devalue female relationships and thank god when men accept us into their exclusive little groups (now we're valuable).

Ever wonder why equality between the sexes is taking so long?

I think you're looking at this from a somewhat odd angle. It seemed to me that many of the replies emphasized common interests. They did not exclude females as a group, but rather those that perpetuate stereotypes of the gender. Many have mentioned that they do value the friendships of some females for various reasons. I don't see anything sad about socializing with people that you personally enjoy and find interesting, nor do I think it's sad if these people statistically tend to be male more so than female (or vice versa). I did not see anyone "seeking value" from men, but rather finding themselves valuable as they are and thus not changing that simply to fit in with a group where they are often disinterested and misunderstood, doing so would mean seeking validation from women.

This thread began with a quote that described INTJ females as a minority with temperaments that often put them out of step with typical female characteristics and thus females that possess them. The tone of this thread has been similar, as many it seems, in their own experience, find this to be true.

[anthrogirl]

Was great to read this thread, as I was actually thinking of posting the question myself. One thing that annoys me is going to womans activities from my church and them called us 'girls', because we are all over 18 and we are women, not girls. It's just the whole 'girly girly' thing, yuk. I find I usually get on better with men, unless they are sport jocks or only talk about sports or cars. I went to a mums group for a while because there were some women there who I had good coversations with but then the makeup of the group changed and alot of younger mums came into the group and they were only interested in talking about baby stuff and the stuff they were buying for their babies and then I left the group because I really could not be bothered with women who say things like 'oh, I just brought a new hoodie for little Madison from Bilabong and it was only $70' (give me a bucket). I do like to look nice but don't follow trends, I like classy or elegent looks. I fail to see the attraction of spending a hour doing my hair every day, I could spend that hour reading or on the computer! I also do not go in for office gossip or material possession upsizing conversations ('oh, we just brought our 3rd investment property', 'really, and what tiles are you doing the bathroom in.....' etc). It's funny because my husband is an INFP and sometimes I feel like I'm the male and he's the female....

[Antares]

The one type of female I CANNOT get along with is ESTJ.
I have broken relationships with 3 women and all 3 of them are ESTJs.
I can get along with ESTJ men okay.

Maybe it's those particular ESTJs that you cannot stand to be around? One of my best friends is ESTJ, and we get along very well.

I feel out of sync with my female peers largely because in my attitude on most things, emotions are a very small part of the equation, and sometimes there'd be none. When my friends expect comfort from me, I'm at loss of what to do and I often counter their emotional outbursts (against other people) with logical reasoning, and if they're wrong or at fault, they say things along the lines of: " You're no help at all." When they try to display affection to me, I flee and say that I'm not comfortable with this. No doubt, being a thinking female is an annoyance to the others, but they annoy me on the same level.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Hmmm....looking at my phone list...three women...rest all men.

I really prefer the company of men. Make more sense and do interesting things. But I've been like that since childhood. The women I like to hang with are usually the bolder types.
So women are uninteresting and make little sense.

Women are the only group I know of that willingly participate in denigrating their own.

I wonder why we don't get equal treatment?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 5 minutes and 44 seconds later...

I think you're looking at this from a somewhat odd angle. It seemed to me that many of the replies emphasized common interests. They did not exclude females as a group, but rather those that perpetuate stereotypes of the gender. Many have mentioned that they do value the friendships of some females for various reasons. I don't see anything sad about socializing with people that you personally enjoy and find interesting, nor do I think it's sad if these people statistically tend to be male more so than female (or vice versa). I did not see anyone "seeking value" from men, but rather finding themselves valuable as they are and thus not changing that simply to fit in with a group where they are often disinterested and misunderstood, doing so would mean seeking validation from women.

This thread began with a quote that described INTJ females as a minority with temperaments that often put them out of step with typical female characteristics and thus females that possess them. The tone of this thread has been similar, as many it seems, in their own experience, find this to be true.
But can you see that many (not all) of the traits these women tend to 'value' have been chosen as valuable by men and many (not all) of the traits they devalue are generally considered as invaluable by men?

Of course, people are people and there will be good and bad. But, when you recognize that you are tending to value one 'group' above another.......wouldn't you ask yourself if you are prejudiced in some way? And wouldn't you want to explore the source of that prejudism?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 3 minutes and 43 seconds later...

Quote: "It's funny because my husband is an INFP and sometimes I feel like I'm the male and he's the female...."

Which goes to show that assigning gender roles doesn't work.

[WavesSootheMe]

But can you see that many (not all) of the traits these women tend to 'value' have been chosen as valuable by men and many (not all) of the traits they devalue are generally considered as invaluable by men?

Of course, people are people and there will be good and bad. But, when you recognize that you are tending to value one 'group' above another.......wouldn't you ask yourself if you are prejudiced in some way? And wouldn't you want to explore the source of that prejudism?

Your language is rather confusing. You are using words such as 'chosen' and 'value' in places where they do not apply. For your arguments to make sense, all of these women here, who time and again mention that they often have a hard time relating to other women, would have to have CHOSEN the tendencies/traits/cognitive processing that they display. Having interests/preferences outside of the norm from your own gender and choosing to socialize with those that share your interests, which may in some experience tend to be more often from another gender, has nothing to do with the overall value of individuals, but rather their value as a friend to a single person.

What you quoted from qwiksilver in your last post doesn't mean that all women are uninteresting and make little sense as an absolute, but rather from that person's perspective it's difficult for them to find common interests/make sense of many women and the reverse is most likely true as well (most women probably have a hard time relating to that person). We may all see value in other women as a group without being like/completely understanding the norm. We may all see worth in activities that we ourselves find uninteresting/not right for us. We may respect someone without forming a friendship with that person. Why can you not see the value of a woman being true to herself no matter where those traits place her in relation to gender norms?

If women are the only group that you know of that do not value the stereotype of their own group, then I would recommend that you open your eyes and ears a bit more.

[denaria]

I've been thinking about this from the point of view of genetics. Current research indicates that many of the genes associated with "intelligence" (I'm not proposing to start a debate about what that is, but lets take it as the kind of stuff measured by IQ tests for now) are on the X chromosome. That means that girls get 2 sets, whereas boys only get one. This is meant to explain why the normal distribution of women's IQ scores seems to be more tightly clustered round the mean, whereas there are larger numbers of mean at the top and the bottom of the range. I think most of us would feel that our INTJ identity is intimately connected with our intelligence, which leads me to suspect that INTJ is associated with a set of recessive genes on the X which many women carry but which is only expressed in women when matched with a similar set of INTJs from their fathers. I've put this much too simply, but I think it may be why we as women feel so much more isolated as INTJs - males are more likely to find other men with similar temperaments whereas the female population is biased towards an average personality type.

I may be talking total rubbish here of course; I'm not a geneticist, merely an avid reader of everything.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Your language is rather confusing. You are using words such as 'chosen' and 'value' in places where they do not apply. For your arguments to make sense, all of these women here, who time and again mention that they often have a hard time relating to other women, would have to have CHOSEN the tendencies/traits/cognitive processing that they display. Having interests/preferences outside of the norm from your own gender and choosing to socialize with those that share your interests, which may in some experience tend to be more often from another gender, has nothing to do with the overall value of individuals, but rather their value as a friend to a single person.

What you quoted from qwiksilver in your last post doesn't mean that all women are uninteresting and make little sense as an absolute, but rather from that person's perspective it's difficult for them to find common interests/make sense of many women and the reverse is most likely true as well (most women probably have a hard time relating to that person). We may all see value in other women as a group without being like/completely understanding the norm. We may all see worth in activities that we ourselves find uninteresting/not right for us. We may respect someone without forming a friendship with that person. Why can you not see the value of a woman being true to herself no matter where those traits place her in relation to gender norms?

If women are the only group that you know of that do not value the stereotype of their own group, then I would recommend that you open your eyes and ears a bit more.
What would you think of a black man who prefered the company of white people because they are more interesting and make more sense?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 24 seconds later...

I've been thinking about this from the point of view of genetics. Current research indicates that many of the genes associated with "intelligence" (I'm not proposing to start a debate about what that is, but lets take it as the kind of stuff measured by IQ tests for now) are on the X chromosome. That means that girls get 2 sets, whereas boys only get one. This is meant to explain why the normal distribution of women's IQ scores seems to be more tightly clustered round the mean, whereas there are larger numbers of mean at the top and the bottom of the range. I think most of us would feel that our INTJ identity is intimately connected with our intelligence, which leads me to suspect that INTJ is associated with a set of recessive genes on the X which many women carry but which is only expressed in women when matched with a similar set of INTJs from their fathers. I've put this much too simply, but I think it may be why we as women feel so much more isolated as INTJs - males are more likely to find other men with similar temperaments whereas the female population is biased towards an average personality type.

I may be talking total rubbish here of course; I'm not a geneticist, merely an avid reader of everything.
So female INTJ's tend to prefer the company of other INTJ's regardless of their sex?

[denaria]

What would you think of a black man who prefered the company of white people because they are more interesting and make more sense?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 24 seconds later...


So female INTJ's tend to prefer the company of other INTJ's regardless of their sex?
Umm...I'm trying not to be disrepectful or snobbish, I think I'm trying to say that maybe most women are more like each other than most men, and that therefore if you are a woman with an unusual personality type it is harder to find those you have a common bond with? Does that make sense? Not necessarily INTJs but maybe 2 out of 4? Mind you as an apparently borderline T/F (according to one of the tests I took) I started reading the INFP list and came to the rapid conclusion that most of them were bonkers.

[thod]

I was able to find the following for australia


Profiles of 6507 females and 7569 males

Type Males Females Avg
ISTJ 21.60% 10.10% 16.28%
ESTJ 16.20% 8.00% 12.41%
ISFJ 3.60% 13.20% 8.04%
INTJ 9.90% 5.40% 7.82%
ENTJ 9.10% 4.60% 7.02%
ENTP 6.80% 5.50% 6.20%
ENFP 3.70% 8.30% 5.83%
INTP 6.90% 4.20% 5.65%
INFP 3.40% 8.30% 5.67%
ESFJ 2.40% 8.00% 4.99%
INFJ 2.70% 6.00% 4.23%
ISTP 4.90% 2.70% 3.88%
ESTP 4.40% 2.50% 3.52%
ISFP 1.60% 5.20% 3.26%
ENFJ 1.70% 4.20% 2.86%

And for the USA

ISFJ 13,8%
ESFJ 12,3%
ISTJ 11,5%
ISFP 8,8%
ESTJ 8,7%
ESFP 8,5%
ENFP 8,1%
ISTP 5,4%
INFP 4,4%
ESTP 4,3%
INTP 3,3%
ENTP 3,2%
ENFJ 2,4%
INTJ 2,1%
ENTJ 1,8%
INFJ 1,5%

Now both Austalia and USA have european genetics. This indicates that the MBTI is very much determined by environment. Dont have sex breakdown for USA.

SJ's seem pretty common. I would guess that the males usualy end up as the T of the type and the females the F other letters being the same. So you would be unusal to be on the T side.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Umm...I'm trying not to be disrepectful or snobbish, I think I'm trying to say that maybe most women are more like each other than most men, and that therefore if you are a woman with an unusual personality type it is harder to find those you have a common bond with? Does that make sense? Not necessarily INTJs but maybe 2 out of 4? Mind you as an apparently borderline T/F (according to one of the tests I took) I started reading the INFP list and came to the rapid conclusion that most of them were bonkers.
That makes perfect sense. It sounds like your saying that INTJ females just generally have fewer friends/aquaintances and that INTJ females tend to seek out other INTJ people as friends/aquaintances regardless of their sex?

[WavesSootheMe]

What would you think of a black man who prefered the company of white people because they are more interesting and make more sense?

That makes perfect sense. It sounds like your saying that INTJ females just generally have fewer friends/aquaintances and that INTJ females tend to seek out other INTJ people as friends/aquaintances regardless of their sex?

Now you're getting at what I was saying too. This would be the common ground. It's not that INTJ females seek males simply to put down females and be validated by the other sex, but rather that as females that have a more male-dominated temperament they find more common ground with similar temperaments. If we specifically look at the T/F spectrum, we see that there are more males that test as Ts than females. This function has to do with the way an individual makes decisions. If you're a person that makes decisions based on facts (T), then it may be difficult to understand the motives of a person that makes decisions based on subjective experience (F) - and it's difficult to maintain a friendship when there's this lack of understanding on both ends.

To follow the format of your question, we're not saying "INTJ females prefer the company of males because they are more interesting and make more sense," but rather "INTJ females tend to form friendships with males or non-stereotypical females because they find more common interests and understanding among these groups." As you can see the cause and effect are flipped.

[anul]

My wife and I recently noticed that a large amount of INTJ females are interested in Japanese Gothic Lolita fashion are female INTJ's.

[Rei]

My wife and I recently noticed that a large amount of INTJ females are interested in Japanese Gothic Lolita fashion are female INTJ's.

Not so much...
I think it's rather ridiculous, and I have no clue why people do it.
It's such time-consuming and pointless stuff...


I didn't think that the difference in the percentages of males and females for T's and F's would be so high. Has anyone posted the percentage of the population INTJ females make up?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Now you're getting at what I was saying too. This would be the common ground. It's not that INTJ females seek males simply to put down females and be validated by the other sex, but rather that as females that have a more male-dominated temperament they find more common ground with similar temperaments. If we specifically look at the T/F spectrum, we see that there are more males that test as Ts than females. This function has to do with the way an individual makes decisions. If you're a person that makes decisions based on facts (T), then it may be difficult to understand the motives of a person that makes decisions based on subjective experience (F) - and it's difficult to maintain a friendship when there's this lack of understanding on both ends.

To follow the format of your question, we're not saying "INTJ females prefer the company of males because they are more interesting and make more sense," but rather "INTJ females tend to form friendships with males or non-stereotypical females because they find more common interests and understanding among these groups." As you can see the cause and effect are flipped.
This makes sense. But what gets my attention is that these women are comfortable making the statement that men are more intelligent and make more sense than women and that alot of other women are very accepting of this. Conversely, there is much less acceptance for the exact same statement from the black man about white people (whether or not it is valid).

[WavesSootheMe]

But what gets my attention is that these women are comfortable making the statement that men are more intelligent and make more sense than women and that alot of other women are very accepting of this.

That would be alarming, but I haven't seen a single post that has claimed that men are more intelligent than women, and I don't think you're quite grasping that when they say that a group makes more sense they mean that, due to more similar thought processing, they can more easily understand their motives and actions.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

That would be alarming, but I haven't seen a single post that has claimed that men are more intelligent than women, and I don't think you're quite grasping that when they say that a group makes more sense they mean that, due to more similar thought processing, they can more easily understand their motives and actions.
So ....... saying that white people are more intelligent and make more sense really just means that the black man's thought processes are more similar to white people's thought processes than to black people's thought processes and he can, therefore, more easily understand a white persons motives and actions than he can a black persons? And none of this makes him prejudiced?

[WavesSootheMe]

So ....... saying that white people are more intelligent and make more sense really just means that the black man's thought processes are more similar to white people's thought processes than to black people's thought processes and he can, therefore, more easily understand a white persons motives and actions than he can a black persons? And none of this makes him prejudiced?

a) My first sentence states that no one here has claimed that men on average are more intelligent than women on average

and

b) Since you keep going back to the same thing without regard for what's actually been said, we've obviously hit a brick wall.

[thod]

b) Since you keep going back to the same thing without regard for what's actually been said, we've obviously hit a brick wall.

Lol, I find this irritating too.

You bring up a series of points backed by reference material. You expect a refutation of each of the points, providing counter points and alternative material.

Instead its all ignored and the orginal statement is restated as if nothing has occured. Its like arguing with a christian, "its says so in the bible", endless evidence and opinion later, "it says so in the bible". Like duh, its not a poll where everyone states their opinion. The idea is the investigation of truth by discussion. Just like in the courtroom you will be censured for repetition.

[anul]

Not so much...
I think it's rather ridiculous, and I have no clue why people do it.
It's such time-consuming and pointless stuff...



While you may not care for Gothic Lolita fashion. There are other INTJ females that do enjoy Gothic Lolita fashion. I know because I've reviewed surveys they've taken. And in those Gothic Lolita fashion community there was a high percentage of INTJ females.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

a) My first sentence states that no one here has claimed that men on average are more intelligent than women on average

and

b) Since you keep going back to the same thing without regard for what's actually been said, we've obviously hit a brick wall.
I am not commenting on your statement about no posts claiming that men are more intelligent than women.

I am basically asking you that when you say "....I don't think you're quite grasping that when they say that a group makes more sense they mean that, due to more similar thought processing, they can more easily understand their motives and actions...." do you mean that when the black man says that white people are more intelligent and make more sense what he really means is that his thought processes are more similar to white people's thought processes than to black people's thought processes and he can, therefore, more easily understand a white persons motives and actions than he can a black persons? And that none of this makes him prejudiced?

I am asking if this is what you mean by this comment?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 42 seconds later...

Lol, I find this irritating too.

You bring up a series of points backed by reference material. You expect a refutation of each of the points, providing counter points and alternative material.

Instead its all ignored and the orginal statement is restated as if nothing has occured. Its like arguing with a christian, "its says so in the bible", endless evidence and opinion later, "it says so in the bible". Like duh, its not a poll where everyone states their opinion. The idea is the investigation of truth by discussion. Just like in the courtroom you will be censured for repetition.
I have tried to use logic and reason to understand your statements and have asked pointed questions about each statement to that end.

It's unfortunate that this irritates you.

[thod]

The problem is your understanding of dialectics, or how to debate.

Dialectics are based around three concepts:

1: Everything is made out of opposing forces/opposing sides.
2: Gradual changes lead to turning points, where one force overcomes the other.
3: Change moves in spirals not circles. (Sometimes referred to as "negation of the negation")


Instead of refuting the points made by the previous posters you simply ignore them. You then either.

1) restate your position.
2) ask a question.

Niether of which forms a debate.

1)
A - "The moon is made of cheese"
B - "There are rocks brought back by Apollo"
C - "There would need to be lots of milk to make the cheese"
A - "The moon is made of cheese"

2)
A - "The moon is made of cheese"
B - "There are rocks brought back by Apollo"
C - "There would need to be lots of milk to make the cheese"
A- "Why do you not think its made of cheese?"

Take a look back almost every post ends with a question. You are doing the same thing with all the threads you have open, and they all seem to be on the racism and sexism theme.

If you dont have anything to say then say nothing at all. Give some points, some information, state you position and back it up so that people can attack it and maybe you can defend it. Its like debating with those automated computer programs that just throw everything back at you.

A - "How is the weather outside?"
B - "Its raining"
A - "Why do you say its raining?"
B - "Because you asked me"
A- "What makes you think I asked you?"

[vaguely dissatisfied]

The problem is your understanding of dialectics, or how to debate.



Instead of refuting the points made by the previous posters you simply ignore them. You then either.

1) restate your position.
2) ask a question.

Niether of which forms a debate.

1)
A - "The moon is made of cheese"
B - "There are rocks brought back by Apollo"
C - "There would need to be lots of milk to make the cheese"
A - "The moon is made of cheese"

2)
A - "The moon is made of cheese"
B - "There are rocks brought back by Apollo"
C - "There would need to be lots of milk to make the cheese"
A- "Why do you not think its made of cheese?"

Take a look back almost every post ends with a question. You are doing the same thing with all the threads you have open, and they all seem to be on the racism and sexism theme.

If you dont have anything to say then say nothing at all. Give some points, some information, state you position and back it up so that people can attack it and maybe you can defend it. Its like debating with those automated computer programs that just throw everything back at you.

A - "How is the weather outside?"
B - "Its raining"
A - "Why do you say its raining?"
B - "Because you asked me"
A- "What makes you think I asked you?"
Since you are so well versed with the logic of debate you will already know that you must understand the statements made within the debate in order to debate any point that is made. One of the best ways to clarify another person's statements is to come right out and ask if a particular statement means a, b, or c. It is a painstaking process, but effectively separates the wheat from the chaff.

One of the beautys of debating in written medium is that a statement is there for scrutiny in a word-for-word quote. No one can deny what has been said this way. They can, however, refuse to acknowledge or discuss the statement.

[WavesSootheMe]

I am not commenting on your statement about no posts claiming that men are more intelligent than women.

I am basically asking you that when you say "....I don't think you're quite grasping that when they say that a group makes more sense they mean that, due to more similar thought processing, they can more easily understand their motives and actions...." do you mean that when the black man says that white people are more intelligent and make more sense what he really means is that his thought processes are more similar to white people's thought processes than to black people's thought processes and he can, therefore, more easily understand a white persons motives and actions than he can a black persons? And that none of this makes him prejudiced?

I am asking if this is what you mean by this comment?

How can you completely ignore my statement when your comparison includes a point on the topic of intelligence? (see "more intelligent" in bold)

My point: This is not what I'm saying, since average intelligence of each gender is not a point of discussion in this thread.

If you continue to include points of attack that are not based in what is actually present, your comparison is not applicable to this thread.

Subtracting overall intelligence from the picture, I would not have a problem with a person saying that from past experience they've been able to understand (or make more sense of) or they've enjoyed their time more with one particular group over another. I would find it alarming if the person's idea was an absolute value judgment based on preconceived stereotypes instead of individual temperament and experience AND I would find it even more alarming if this person refused to accept that any individual from any other group had friend-potential and used this preference to cause insult or injury to anyone else. Reading the posts in this thread, I do not find either of these alarming scenarios to be the case. The posts include comments on past experience and individual interactions (which is a result of their temperament combined with that of another). Also, several mention that they do have some female friends, which indicates that they are not exclusionary.

A question for you to try and switch up your perspective a bit: What do you think of a female that says she relates more to females more so than males, and how is a female saying that she relates better to males any different? Now change that to a female that refuses to form any friendships with males, and how is that any different than a female that refuses to form any friendships with other females? Big difference, right?

I find that the first question is much more applicable to what I have read here. This thread, in my opinion, consists of posts from females that have found that they often relate better to males, but that do not exclude females solely based on their gender. Why, when females often favor same-sex friendships, do you find a female that favors mixed-sex friendships alarming?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

How can you completely ignore my statement when your comparison includes a point on the topic of intelligence? (see "more intelligent" in bold)

My point: This is not what I'm saying, since average intelligence of each gender is not a point of discussion in this thread.

If you continue to include points of attack that are not based in what is actually present, your comparison is not applicable to this thread.

Subtracting overall intelligence from the picture, I would not have a problem with a person saying that from past experience they've been able to understand (or make more sense of) or they've enjoyed their time more with one particular group over another. I would find it alarming if the person's idea was an absolute value judgment based on preconceived stereotypes instead of individual temperament and experience AND I would find it even more alarming if this person refused to accept that any individual from any other group had friend-potential and used this preference to cause insult or injury to anyone else. Reading the posts in this thread, I do not find either of these alarming scenarios to be the case. The posts include comments on past experience and individual interactions (which is a result of their temperament combined with that of another). Also, several mention that they do have some female friends, which indicates that they are not exclusionary.

A question for you to try and switch up your perspective a bit: What do you think of a female that says she relates more to females more so than males, and how is a female saying that she relates better to males any different? Now change that to a female that refuses to form any friendships with males, and how is that any different than a female that refuses to form any friendships with other females? Big difference, right?

I find that the first question is much more applicable to what I have read here. This thread, in my opinion, consists of posts from females that have found that they often relate better to males, but that do not exclude females solely based on their gender. Why, when females often favor same-sex friendships, do you find a female that favors mixed-sex friendships alarming?


You are right about me using the word intelligence as being inapplicable here and this is my my mistake. I apologize .....I am also on another thread about a similar topic and was confusing the two.

I was not attempting to completely ignore your first statement, but to focus on the second statement, however, I have included the original statement that caught my attention for clarification.
Originally Posted by qwiksilver
"Hmmm....looking at my phone list...three women...rest all men.

I really prefer the company of men. Make more sense and do interesting things. But I've been like that since childhood. The women I like to hang with are usually the bolder types."

This statement got my attention because it appears to me that the same sort of statement made by any other 'minority' group about it's own members would be less well recieved by the members. In other words, it appears to me that women speaking in this manner about women and men is not regarded as prejudicial while another minority group member speaking in the same manner would be thought of as prejudiced.

As for your question "....What do you think of a female that says she relates more to females more so than males ...." I would think that this was not a prejudicial statement since this female was not commenting on any one group's superior ability to make sense or indicating that the other group does more interesting things. Therefore, my answer to your second question "...and how is a female saying that she relates better to males any different?" .... is that this is also not a prejudicial statement. However, I still see a difference between inclusion of ones own 'minority' group and exclusion of that group. In other words, to relate to your own 'minority' group is probably not due to prejudice of an out-group, whereas, to not relate to your own 'minority' group is suspect.

As for your question; what do I think about "....a female that refuses to form any friendships with males, and how is that any different than a female that refuses to form any friendships with other females?" My response is that I would think that these females were prejudicial against the 'other-group', but have not made any prejudicial statements.

To answer your question, "Why, when females often favor same-sex friendships, do you find a female that favors mixed-sex friendships alarming?" I have not stated anywhere that I find this alarming. In fact, I find this in no way alarming. What I find interesting is when females favor male friendships (not mixed) and appear (to me) to think that this somehow makes them superior to other "girly-girl' females. What I read into this.....and this is only my opinion.... is that these females believe that males have preferred traits. To extrapolate........have these women bought into the idea that they are better or superior to other women if they are more like men and if so why?

Again.....I apologize for the use of the word intelligence and for the confusion this created.

[WavesSootheMe]

Originally Posted by qwiksilver"Hmmm....looking at my phone list...three women...rest all men. I really prefer the company of men. Make more sense and do interesting things. But I've been like that since childhood. The women I like to hang with are usually the bolder types."

This statement got my attention because it appears to me that the same sort of statement made by any other 'minority' group about it's own members would be less well recieved by the members. In other words, it appears to me that women speaking in this manner about women and men is not regarded as prejudicial while another minority group member speaking in the same manner would be thought of as prejudiced.

As for your question "....What do you think of a female that says she relates more to females more so than males ...." I would think that this was not a prejudicial statement since this female was not commenting on any one group's superior ability to make sense or indicating that the other group does more interesting things.

I believe that you are confusing individual experience with overall value judgments. You are inserting words into the quoted post such as "superior" and "ability to," and you are forgetting that things such as "making sense" and "interesting" are largely subjective (whether it is clearly stated in the actual statement or not).

Take a moment to consider how these ideas are subjective:

What one person finds to be interesting another may not. Does saying that some people do more things that I find more interesting than others mean that I find these others to have an "inferior ability" to be interesting? Perhaps it simply means that they’re different and interesting in their own ways, and that these activities do not make or break them as interesting, complete individuals. However, I almost certainly would prefer spending leisure time with the people engaging in activities that I enjoy.

On the other comment, certain actions may or may not make sense to one individual, depending on a number of factors, but these actions probably made sense to the individual that engaged in them and probably make sense to other individuals that process situations similarly. This ties back in to the T/F function of MBTI, and if I recall, you agreed that the comments on similar temperaments and gender distribution made sense to you.

Now consider the quoted post within the context of this thread, which initially asked for comments on individual experiences and how they relate to a quote about INTJ females. I interpret many of the posts as saying these basic statements: "You're right! I have felt out of step with traditional femininity. The number of male vs female friends and type of female friends I have clearly shows this. Maybe there is something to this description of INTJ females." Although most of the posts do not clearly state "sense" and "interesting" in terms of their own sense and their own interests, I do believe, based on the context, that this is the intention.

If indeed, the statement was meant as an overall value judgment on the superiority of men to women, then I would find it just as sad, regardless of the sex of the person that made the statement and just as sad as anyone claiming the overall superiority of any one group over another (regardless of where they fit in). However, since this may not be the case, all I would like to ask is that you perhaps ask for clarifications of the posters’ statements before you quote them and judge them as sad and unfairly prejudiced.

Therefore, my answer to your second question "...and how is a female saying that she relates better to males any different?" .... is that this is also not a prejudicial statement. However, I still see a difference between inclusion of ones own 'minority' group and exclusion of that group. In other words, to relate to your own 'minority' group is probably not due to prejudice of an out-group, whereas, to not relate to your own 'minority' group is suspect.

Inclusion of one group over another necessarily leads to exclusion of another group be it a minority or a majority (and I’m assuming that you’re putting minority in little quote marks because by the numbers females are only marginally a minority). I do not see a difference between excluding groups that you label “not me” and excluding groups that you label “me.” Additionally, I do not see personal preferences for activities and decision-making to be exclusionary of any one group.

As for your question; what do I think about "....a female that refuses to form any friendships with males, and how is that any different than a female that refuses to form any friendships with other females?" My response is that I would think that these females were prejudicial against the 'other-group', but have not made any prejudicial statements. .

I would think that actions in this case would speak volumes more than easily misinterpreted words.

To answer your question, "Why, when females often favor same-sex friendships, do you find a female that favors mixed-sex friendships alarming?" I have not stated anywhere that I find this alarming. In fact, I find this in no way alarming. What I find interesting is when females favor male friendships (not mixed) and appear (to me) to think that this somehow makes them superior to other "girly-girl' females. What I read into this.....and this is only my opinion.... is that these females believe that males have preferred traits. To extrapolate........have these women bought into the idea that they are better or superior to other women if they are more like men and if so why?

Again.....I apologize for the use of the word intelligence and for the confusion this created.

I am confused by your interpretation of “mixed-sex friendships.” By this, I meant male-female (mixed) vs. female-female or male-male (same). Also “favor” does not mean all or nothing. The post you quoted mentioned having female as well as male friends (and only one of the numbers so we cannot calculate percentages). I also have not seen any mention of superiority. Perhaps this impression is the judgment of frivolity and dislike of (for one’s self) many activities traditionally thought of as girly, but (unless this is all they do and all there is to them as a person) this is not a judgment of all people that engage in such activities. There is indeed a preference for one’s own individual lifestyle based on individual values, but this is possible without considering different lifestyles as inferior.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

WavesSootheMe

You make many valid points and argue logically and reasonably. I guess what I am trying to show is a general denigration of women in many of these posts. I use 'minority' to describe women because they are not actually a minority group, but are discriminated against in the same manner as many minority groups. It is usually less acceptable to make generalized, stereoptypical, and defaming ramarks about groups who are discriminated against in society. If it is not appearant to you in the following examples (generalized statements about women and men), then I think that you and I have very different perspectives on this subject.

I believe this is a male: "The fact that she (the INTJ female) is independent and intellectual in nature is very refreshing really. It puts her in a place where we are more equal than I would be with others, even some guys, and we are able to carry out tasks and discussions (or knock out arguments) in a manner much more efficiently and with less social trappings."

"I love talking about ideas." implying men talk about ideas.
"I hate talking about people." implying women talk about people.

"I don't care to discuss fashion, celebrities and relationships (especially when conversations turn to sex) so that leaves me with little to talk about with most women."

"most women I feel will complain and ask for help before they even try and figure it out sometimes..."

"Most females expect small talk, gossip, shopping trips, etc."

"It is a more typical "guy-like" attitude to just "tough it out."

"I find myself drawn more to discussions men are having than those of women. I, too, find gossip and girl talk boring."

"I really prefer the company of men. Make more sense and do interesting things." implying men make more sense than women and do more interesting things.

[Agile]

Lol, I find this irritating too.

You bring up a series of points backed by reference material. You expect a refutation of each of the points, providing counter points and alternative material.

Instead its all ignored and the orginal statement is restated as if nothing has occured. Its like arguing with a christian, "its says so in the bible", endless evidence and opinion later, "it says so in the bible". Like duh, its not a poll where everyone states their opinion. The idea is the investigation of truth by discussion. Just like in the courtroom you will be censured for repetition.

:thumbsup: (we need a "high five!" smiley)
Thod, it's like you read my mind, literally, as I have had the same experience. I wouldn't say that Vaguely Dissatisfied made a similar post, but I can see how you viewed it this way. I see what she did as more of an editing issue than a repetitive post.

Vaguely Dissatisfied, regarding your quotes, in every case, I see the context of type/subtype compared to the mainstream point of view. I wonder if maybe you would ask the small group of INTJ women to:


At the end of the day, prefer to interact with women and long for greater numbers of INTJ women, (which I am sure many do, as I know I do! :cheesy: -nothing against guys, lol)


To refrain from making honest critcisms of outdated social stereotypes. I find that their preference of not fitting the status quo, and staying true to themselves, comes across to you as a preference for one gender over the other.


As to the idea that men do not generally say the same things (here), point taken. But I find that this is because this thread specifically centers its discussion on INTJ females, which, by definition, is a comparison between INTJ women, and all others. Open a topic on INTJ men, vs all other men, and you will find us making similar statements.

I mean, can you really imagine us guys going out of our way to change the topic, or avoid criticizing non INTJ males, :huh: if someone specifically asked this?

...how do you perceive INTJ females? Do you find them more or less appealing (either as friends or romantic partners) than the typical female?


The general INTJ paradigm appeals to me, and I would find it refreshing to actually meet a woman who behaved this way, in all aspects of life, that is, work, friendships, and romantic partnerships. That said, I have yet to meet any as far as I know (in any area of my life). But, romantically, I read on here at least one INTJ woman expecting a guy who is both interesting, intelligent, and mature. I think a woman with such high expectations would either be a genetic anomaly, or she'd have her head in the clouds (possibly both, though which one causes the other...? hmmm). Of course this assumes that a large majority of INTJ women have either unrealistically high value, or unrealistically high expectations. Wow...this could go into so many tangents...

I believe that an INTJ female would not 'be so quick to judge' or 'judge a book by its cover' and instead acknowledge that 'glossing over the surface' does not a correct judgment make. However, I find that many 'realistic' people do this and if this is INTJ, I would say I have to revise my expectations, and change my answer above.

The other side of the coin is if they actually do not 'judge a book by its cover,' and instead make rational, logical assesments (take the wolf/dog comparison-->revision process from earlier in the thread), I would find this to be a refreshing change, as above.

[Aurelia]

Oh hell yeah, I agree with that. Growing up, almost all of the girl friends I had used to admire me for my independence and frequently came to me for advice (whether I knew anything about the subject or not...that always kinda confused me, especially when I was 17 and people far more experienced in the areas of love were coming to me for advice on their relationships...which they never took, even though I was ALWAYS RIGHT), but I was never really "one of the girls". Even the person that called me her "best friend" often ignored me because I wasn't "cool" like her other friends. Actually, most of the friends I have now do the same thing. Wow, that sounds really sad when I say it like that. lol I don't really mind, though, since I'd rather not be out hitting the bars and dancing anyway.


Most of what you wrote I can relate to. (Although I do enjoy going out for cocktails every now and then -- I love martinis). One book I read (In the Company of Women by Pat Heim) explained the nuances of friendships between women especially in the workplace. I didn't agree with all of the techniques proposed by the author but it helped me to understand how my behavior can put off other women. INTJ women are rare and most people (male or female) don't really know how to react to us. Perhaps you might find the book helpful as well.

[Zirka]

To the INTJ females: what has your experience been like being an INTJ female? Do you have trouble relating to other females?


I most certainly have trouble relating to other females. I have two younger sisters and it seems to me that most of our interactions revolve around me helping them with homework, although recently I've been talking more with the one closer to my age as I'm trying to figure out my feelings towards a boy. (which were actually pointed out to me by her)

I think part of the problem is that I'm quite socially oblivious, which makes interacting with females, who often put alot of value into social cues akward for me.

[Uytuun]

interesting, intelligent, and mature

High expectations? I don't think these are so outrageously high. Expectations in the love context are tricky, of course...and almost never set in stone.

Strange vibe I get from this forum sometimes: INTJ women constantly have to prove themselves i.e. prove that they are consistently rational in all parts of their lives. The slightest trace of emotionality can lead to reactions along the lines of "Hah, see, you're just like the other women anyway, we've unmasked you."

Rationality is nice, but it's not everything.

[mettlemunky]

Ladder theory is wrong. It doesn't give nearly enough weight to how much women want a successful man, or at least what i want anyway. Money and Power gets 50% and attraction gets 40%...Money and particularly POWER IS ATTRACTION. Should be 70% M & P to 20% physical attraction. The mere thought of a powerful man makes me wanna get it on - so long as he is not short and thin, really old, or a relative.

As for gettin along with other girls, i get on with non-girly girls just fine...but not the girly ones, but they are so vapid and princessy anyways. But i don't think i could ever have a relationship with another woman UNLESS she was INTJ, as a bisexual I KNOW TOO WELL how clingy and obsessed with emotional interaction most lesbians are. So if I can meet another emotional retard like myself, it'll be all good...so long as she has nice boobies.

[PRBori]

To the INTJ females: what has your experience been like being an INTJ female? Do you have trouble relating to other females?

Do you agree with this:

To everyone else, how do you perceive INTJ females? Do you find them more or less appealing (either as friends or romantic partners) than the typical female?



(I'll answer this too, I just don't want the first post in this thread to be about me)


I have a difficult time dealing with women in my field because for some reason they feel threaten by my intellectual abilities. I deal with men 99.9% of the time. I'm not into women... I love men, but the right ones are as rare as I am.

The few female friends I have I am like their therapist.. if they have an issue, they come to me since I have so much experience and knowledge. But honestly, is rare for me to have many female friends, not that I wanted it that way, but simply because they tend to be jealous and mis-leading. I like honest and direct people, not saying men are better because they are not, but somehow we are not at the same level.

As meeting someone else who's an INTJ, I don't think I have actually met anyone face to face to have a nice conversation, so I can't say at this time how it will work.

As an INTJ I'm romantic only with someone that has touch my heart and soul.

My physical appearance, well I like pants a lot, more than skirts or dresses. I really don't care much about how I look, I'm not out looking for men, so I don't dress as sexy or girly as other women. I don't like spending time doing my hair or putting make up... is seems rather irrational to waste so much time in front of a mirror when I got more important things to take care off..

I guess being a single mom has a lot to do with it. I just make sure my hair is need enought, no need for make up. I dress comfortable and show little if possible. I don't like people to touch me, so what can I say...

I'm don't dress to impress, I dress for success only, but do not expect to attain success through my dress but thru my brain. Basically, to me what you see is what you get... If you don't like it, keep looking.

:):)

[Lynnefl]

I'm new and have read this entire thread, and all I can say is "YES!!!" Sorry if my post is a bit late and hopefully, I won't ramble too much. Here it goes...

I've always had a strong personality. Some people liked it. Others didn't. And to be honest, I didn't (don't) care either way. But, I have been told, even by close friends, that they found me intimidating at first. They felt "put off" by my intelligence. I've never been one to play dumb in order to make those who are less self-assured feel good about themselves. To me, if you have a problem with me being me, what does that say about you? Why do you care?

People, even those older than me (which is actually quite shocking to me), ask my advice about thngs. To be honest, I don't really know what that's about. Maybe it's that I can analyze and rationally look at things. Or, maybe it's my ability to play devil's advocate and see things from a variety of viewpoints. When people cry on me, which freaks me out, I do allow them to do it and I even throw in a couple, "I'm so sorrys." That's the extent of what they're going to get. I've even teared up a bit when I see or hear people crying. Maybe, I'm tapping a little more into my F side in my old age (32).

Also, if I had a penny for everytime I've told people, "I'm not that way" or "Not all women feel or think like that" I would have my own island in the South Pacific somewhere. Nothing irritates me more than people who fall into the "all women are emotional" and "all women really want a man" viewpoint. What bothers me is the complete lack of reasoning that there might be another way to look at things. How stupid, and quite frankly, ignorant and presumptuous is it to assume that all people think, act, and feel the same way?

As far as my relationship with others...I have more female friends, but they are mostly NTs. I have platonic relationships with guys, but they're mostly married, family members, or guys who are my brother's friends. Most men find me physically attractive, but when I don't do the girly, dasmel in distress thing...they can't handle it. I'm capable and independent. I find it insulting to assume otherwise.

To me, if a man can't handle my personality and accept it (which I conversely would have to do with him), then he's not worth my time. I understand that all relationships, including romantic ones, are about give and take. However, I think it's fundamentally wrong to pretend to be something you're not. Personally, doing that would be an admission that somehow there's something wrong with me or that I'm not good enough as I am. Don't get me wrong. Everyone has faults and weaknesses that they should work on. But, I feel that radically changing my personality to fit some ridiculous notion of how a woman "should be" or "should feel" is asinine. Not only that, it's pointless anyway. Who you truly are is eventually going to come out. Either a person likes (loves) you for who you are, or they don't.

I do have issues with my mother sometimes. I think she's an INFP. We constantly get into arguments because she says and does things that make absolutely no sense to me. It just defies logic. She gets all emotionally involved in people's lives, and she barely knows them. To me, it's a waste of time and energy to get all wrapped up in someone's life, especially if you don't know even them. It's exhausting to do that when you DO know the person! She also likes to shop, which I hate. I usually end up sitting down with the husbands and boyfriends holding the purses. Once, I went to a store with my best friend, and some guy made a comment about us shopping. I told him that I hate it. He said, "Women actually come in a non-shopping model?!" Idiot.

Speaking of that...when it comes to dress and grooming, I do believe in looking good. When I shop, I know exactly what I want. I buy it (if it's reasonably priced of course), and get the heck outta there! I also LOVE my stiletto heels. Unless I'm just going to the grocery store or something like that, I do put on make-up. To me, you are treated how you look. You may not like me, but you will respect me. And like a good friend of mine once said, "I may not know nothing, but I'm going to look like I do!" LOL. I'm a little less stringent with my hair though. I typically pull it back unless I'm going to church or some other function where it is appropiate for me to put a little effort into it. So, when it comes to my appearance...it kind of depends on the circumstances and if I feel like putting a lot of effort into things that day.

[Lucid]

I've always had a strong personality. Some people liked it. Others didn't. And to be honest, I didn't (don't) care either way. But, I have been told, even by close friends, that they found me intimidating at first. They felt "put off" by my intelligence. I've never been one to play dumb in order to make those who are less self-assured feel good about themselves. To me, if you have a problem with me being me, what does that say about you? Why do you care?

I'm the same way. My impression is that most people like me, often right away, but that I can put some others off. My philosophy about this is that if those people are put off by me, we probably wouldn'tve gotten along as friends very well anyway.

Also, if I had a penny for everytime I've told people, "I'm not that way" or "Not all women feel or think like that" I would have my own island in the South Pacific somewhere. Nothing irritates me more than people who fall into the "all women are emotional" and "all women really want a man" viewpoint. What bothers me is the complete lack of reasoning that there might be another way to look at things. How stupid, and quite frankly, ignorant and presumptuous is it to assume that all people think, act, and feel the same way?

I completely agree. There are a few people on this board who try to argue that all women (or all men) __________ (fill in the blank with whatever point they're trying to put forward), and I think it's totally illogical, unreasonable and also insulting. My guess is that they just don't have much experience with other human beings, or with a wide variety of other human beings.

Most men find me physically attractive, but when I don't do the girly, dasmel in distress thing...they can't handle it. I'm capable and independent. I find it insulting to assume otherwise.

I know some guys who love that I don't do the damsel in distress thing, but it seems like they're a minority.

To me, if a man can't handle my personality and accept it (which I conversely would have to do with him), then he's not worth my time. I understand that all relationships, including romantic ones, are about give and take. However, I think it's fundamentally wrong to pretend to be something you're not... ...Not only that, it's pointless anyway. Who you truly are is eventually going to come out. Either a person likes (loves) you for who you are, or they don't.

Excellent point. I'd add that, to me at least, it seems like any relationship based on one or both parties trying to be people they aren't would be a sham anyway. They don't love you they love who you're pretending to be. Better for both parties to put their time and energy towards finding someone who is actually the what they want in a partner, and conversely, better for the other to find someone who wants them to be the way they are.

Good to have another INTJ female around. :thumbsup:

[Lynnefl]

Excellent point. I'd add that, to me at least, it seems like any relationship based on one or both parties trying to be people they aren't would be a sham anyway. They don't love you they love who you're pretending to be. Better for both parties to put their time and energy towards finding someone who is actually the what they want in a partner, and conversely, better for the other to find someone who wants them to be the way they are.

Lucid, I understood precisely! Actually, you articulated kind of where I was heading with my thought.

[Lucid]

Lucid, I understood precisely! Actually, you articulated kind of where I was heading with my thought.

You know, it's strange to me that there are people (of either gender) who would rather pretend to be someone they aren't than be single. I think relationships are nice for many reasons, but they're not all blissful romance all the time. Likewise, being single has some drawbacks at times (although less so if you have a good network of friends and family), but it can be a lot of fun too. Both states, in my opinion, are equally desirable for different reasons and may be more or less beneficial at different times in a person's life.

[Colette]

You know, it's strange to me that there are people (of either gender) who would rather pretend to be someone they aren't than be single. I think relationships are nice for many reasons, but they're not all blissful romance all the time. Likewise, being single has some drawbacks at times (although less so if you have a good network of friends and family), but it can be a lot of fun too. Both states, in my opinion, are equally desirable for different reasons and may be more or less beneficial at different times in a person's life.

Yep. This is pretty much the point I've reached in the way I view relationships (and the desirability thereof). I can easily and happily be single now; and have no need or craving for relationships. It's nice when they occur (and when they are good, and an enhancement to my life), but I will actively avoid 'toxic' or unsuitable ones now, and am quite content to be alone (although in truth I'm not really alone, as I'm a mother of two children).

It's a good space to be in at this point in my life, though.

[Lucid]

Yep. This is pretty much the point I've reached in the way I view relationships (and the desirability thereof). I can easily and happily be single now; and have no need or craving for relationships. It's nice when they occur (and when they are good, and an enhancement to my life), but I will actively avoid 'toxic' or unsuitable ones now, and am quite content to be alone (although in truth I'm not really alone, as I'm a mother of two children).

It's a good space to be in at this point in my life, though.

Yeah, as many of the wiser INTJs on this forum have posted as well, there's worse things than being single. Being in a broken, dysfunctional relationship is pretty high on that list as far as I'm concerned. Right now I'm single. My last relationship ended in August and while that was kinda sad, the time had really come for it since neither of us was happy in it any longer. At the moment I really like being single, partly because I'm concentrating on graduating this semester so I don't have much time for dating, and also because I'm having a lot of fun hanging out with my friends and partying (when I'm not doing homework). Not that either couldn't be done if I was in a relationship, but being single makes it a lot easier. I think maybe in 2009 I might start dating again because, in theory, by then my life will have stabilized somewhat, but until then I'm happy with the way things are. :D

[rwyatt365]

Yeah, as many of the wiser INTJs on this forum have posted as well, there's worse things than being single. Being in a broken, dysfunctional relationship is pretty high on that list as far as I'm concerned. Right now I'm single. My last relationship ended in August and while that was kinda sad, the time had really come for it since neither of us was happy in it any longer. At the moment I really like being single, partly because I'm concentrating on graduating this semester so I don't have much time for dating, and also because I'm having a lot of fun hanging out with my friends and partying (when I'm not doing homework). Not that either couldn't be done if I was in a relationship, but being single makes it a lot easier. I think maybe in 2009 I might start dating again because, in theory, by then my life will have stabilized somewhat, but until then I'm happy with the way things are. :D
...not that I'm overly (or even mildly) religious, but there's a passage in the Christian Bible that says (and I paraphrase), "It is better to live in the corner of a small house in peace than to live in a large room with discord". I think of that phrase often...

[Colette]

At the moment I really like being single, partly because I'm concentrating on graduating this semester so I don't have much time for dating, and also because I'm having a lot of fun hanging out with my friends and partying (when I'm not doing homework). Not that either couldn't be done if I was in a relationship, but being single makes it a lot easier. I think maybe in 2009 I might start dating again because, in theory, by then my life will have stabilized somewhat, but until then I'm happy with the way things are. :D

Awesome - you seem a very happy and well balanced INTJ woman. If I were there, I'd be right out there partying with ya, mate ;)

[Lynnefl]

You know, it's strange to me that there are people (of either gender) who would rather pretend to be someone they aren't than be single...


I feel that scenario happens for various reasons. IMO, here's why:

1) Society (which is mostly run by extroverts) says that one has to be coupled up in order to be happy. This is particularly true for women. For generations, some women were raised to feel that they needed to be with a man or married in order to be "normal" even if that's not how they really felt. I'm from the Deep (American) South, and as the saying goes here, "It's better to have a piece of man rather than no man at all."

2) People who are not secure in themselves can't stand to be alone. If you're alone, you're forced on some level to deal with yourself...weaknesses and all. Pretending to be something you're not, and "having someone," as incompatible as you may be, is preferrable to dealing with running commentary in your head. All the aruging with said incompatible partner tends to muffle that inward noise.

3) We also live in a society that disdains self-reflection. That takes time and effort. It's also a lot of hard work to look at yourself honestly, and make changes.

[Uytuun]

You know, it's strange to me that there are people (of either gender) who would rather pretend to be someone they aren't than be single. I think relationships are nice for many reasons, but they're not all blissful romance all the time. Likewise, being single has some drawbacks at times (although less so if you have a good network of friends and family), but it can be a lot of fun too. Both states, in my opinion, are equally desirable for different reasons and may be more or less beneficial at different times in a person's life.

Ditto.

[pavman]

I agree.

Although I have noticed that you people change avatars like I change my underwear...once every couple of weeks! BADOOMCHA! :laugh:

(I had to throw that in there). :thumbsup:

[Colette]

I agree.

Although I have noticed that you people change avatars like I change my underwear...once every couple of weeks! BADOOMCHA! :laugh:

(I had to throw that in there). :thumbsup:

And IMO you need to change yours to reflect what a warm fuzzy individual you really are underneath all that bluster. Charlie Brown, perhaps, or Timmy Turner? :p

[Lucid]

I agree.

Although I have noticed that you people change avatars like I change my underwear...once every couple of weeks! BADOOMCHA!

(I had to throw that in there). :thumbsup:

I have to say I'm confused. I had my last av since November. 3 months isn't long enough to have an av before changing it? :huh:

...not that I'm overly (or even mildly) religious, but there's a passage in the Christian Bible that says (and I paraphrase), "It is better to live in the corner of a small house in peace than to live in a large room with discord". I think of that phrase often...

That's an awesome quote. I will remember it and probably think of it often as well.

Awesome - you seem a very happy and well balanced INTJ woman. If I were there, I'd be right out there partying with ya, mate ;)

Why thank you. :cool:

I feel that scenario happens for various reasons. IMO, here's why: ...

I agree. I think society places a lot of emphasis on pairing off. Maybe it's to encourage procreation. But I think it's unhealthy to see one's whole life as the search for a perfect relationship. I don't think such a thing exists, and I don't want to get married until I'm in my early 30's (and only then if I meet the right person). I have a lot of other stuff I want to do before I settle down and I'm not going to waste all the time I could be spending on that stuff worrying about being single.

[Nausved]

I don't know any INTJs except for my dad. And if he weren't my dad, I wouldn't know him either, since we both tend to keep to ourselves.

But despite the lack of INTJs, I generally don't have much trouble relating to different sorts of people. (Or it could be that I'm so bad at relating to people that I don't realize that I'm not relating to them.) I do find that all of my female friends get along best with males, and that all of my male friends get along best with females, so perhaps there is a certain type of personality I am drawn toward.

I have only been in one "official" relationship, which lasted 1.5 years, and it only lasted that long because he was very tolerant of my eccentricities; indeed, I suspect they were what caught his eye in the first place. Most importantly, he was perfectly happy to express his affection in his own traditional way (e.g., cooking me dinner or giving me a backrub), and yet he was accepting of the more unusual ways that I expressed my affection in return (e.g., describing at great length all the the things I loved about a book he recommended to me). Our relationship only failed when he became clinically depressed after losing his job and his car; it changed his entire personality, and our sudden incompatibility made both of us miserable.

Since then, all my attempts to date have ended the same way. Every guy seems to take issue with that fact that I positively hate giving and receiving gifts, or that I tend to not ever want to go out and do anything. But the final straw is always, always, always the same: I don't call or IM them often enough. One guy actually cut me out of his life because I didn't sign on to AIM for three days!

I don't know what draws these sorts of men to me in the first place. Perhaps each one thinks that he's the one who's finally going to crack my shell and discover the "real" me? :rolleyes:

[Antares]

I agree.

Although I have noticed that you people change avatars like I change my underwear...once every couple of weeks! BADOOMCHA! :laugh:

(I had to throw that in there). :thumbsup:

... ... That's a long time to wear one underwear... ...

Many girls I know like a guy just because they want a boyfriend, and some would do anything to be in a relationship. I don't get them. One of my friends had TWO boyfriends for what reason? The guy liked her. That's just a bad reason anyhow. Both these relationships ended within months.

[Haphazard]

I don't get most women and what's with all the talk about boys?

INTJ girls seem a lot more err, talk-to-able.

And there's not really any shame in being single.

[Clancey]

Having been an INTJ all of my life, I highly relate to what the other women are saying here. I sought out my four boy cousins to play with as a child because I couldn't relate to my emotional sisters. I don't like being chatty. If there are two conversations in a room going on, one male, one female I will head for the guys any day of the week. They ARE talking about more interesting things. What I don't like especially is the, "Let's talk about our hair, makeup, perfume, shopping," etc.... There are more important things then those to talk about! :) Ahhhhh... It's so nice to find other people who think the way I have all my life. Such a relief! Go INTJ's!

[Rohsiph]

I don't know what draws these sorts of men to me in the first place. Perhaps each one thinks that he's the one who's finally going to crack my shell and discover the "real" me? :rolleyes:

Once you're open, you'll be signing on messenger all the time--you'll have five screen-names, and keep different running conversations with the same person with them. Also, you'll demand at least three diamonds a year, as well as twenty-seven dozen flowers every two anniversaries. Then he can take you to the ball and you'll keep your drink and shut up while he makes all the best jokes (but you'll smile big, and not laugh too hard, to show he's taken and that you're not like those schmucks).

[vaguely dissatisfied]

"I couldn't relate to my emotional sisters. I don't like being chatty. If there are two conversations in a room going on, one male, one female I will head for the guys any day of the week. They ARE talking about more interesting things."

It's true....they're more intelligent too........just look at the IQ scores. And they're more successful and more rational.

[Haphazard]

I wouldn't say guys are better, you just have to find the right girls. The right guys are also very very difficult to find, and girls that would relate are usually stuck repressing their true nature.

Or...something.

[Colette]

It's true....they're more intelligent too........just look at the IQ scores. And they're more successful and more rational.

I totally disagree with that. IQ scores measure some very specific kinds of intelligence, and tend to be weighted in favor of 'spatial' reasoning (in relation to which the male brain seems to be more often geared, than the female brain). There is no evidence whatsoever that I have come across to suggest that in verbal intelligence, Math, problem-solving and logical reasoning, or general knowledge retention (other areas measured by IQ), women have any disadvantage over men at all.

One can understand that you may find men 'more interesting', and it's your prerogative to have that view, but please do not extrapolate from it to suggest that women therefore are somehow less intelligent.

[Rei]

I totally disagree with that. IQ scores measure some very specific kinds of intelligence, and tend to be weighted in favor of 'spatial' reasoning (in relation to which the male brain seems to be more often geared, than the female brain). There is no evidence whatsoever that I have come across to suggest that in verbal intelligence, Math, problem-solving and logical reasoning, or general knowledge retention (other areas measured by IQ), women have any disadvantage over men at all.

One can understand that you may find men 'more interesting', and it's your prerogative to have that view, but please do not extrapolate from it to suggest that women therefore are somehow less intelligent.

Agreed...
Women are faster to adapt and faster to fix problems and more multidimensional.
Just yesterday, a bunch of guys were trying to figure out how to fix some equipment so we can work on our lab... while we simply turned the block on it's side and it worked fine. :thinking:

Some women are interesting... just as some men are boring.
It's strictly dependent on preference and common interests... and shouldn't be related to intelligence at all.

I personally hang out with more guys than girls because I like the dynamics of their interactions more than most girls'. But I always have a few very, very close girl friends who are just as, if not infinitely more brilliant compared to the guys.

[Nausved]

Once you're open, you'll be signing on messenger all the time--you'll have five screen-names, and keep different running conversations with the same person with them. Also, you'll demand at least three diamonds a year, as well as twenty-seven dozen flowers every two anniversaries. Then he can take you to the ball and you'll keep your drink and shut up while he makes all the best jokes (but you'll smile big, and not laugh too hard, to show he's taken and that you're not like those schmucks).

How very perceptive of you! I have never met anyone who could so accurately describe my inner being. I've been waiting for someone like you to discover it! :laugh:

I wouldn't say guys are better, you just have to find the right girls. The right guys are also very very difficult to find, and girls that would relate are usually stuck repressing their true nature.

When I am in a group that naturally separates along gender lines, I tend to go off by myself to read. I've found that women who mostly hang out with women are usually the sorts who chatter incessantly about guys and shopping. Likewise, I find that men who mostly hang out with men are usually the sorts who chatter incessantly about girls and sports. When the two come together, they flirt in the most annoying ways possible, usually with the men acting like pompous asses right out of middle school and the women feigning shock.

Men and women who gravitate toward mixed groups (on a platonic level, not just for picking up dates) tend to be the most interesting. They're more inclined to talk about subjects I find fascinating, such as science and politics. When they flirt amongst each other, it's generally much more subtle and intellectual in nature—and thus not so annoying.

[Colette]

Men and women who gravitate toward mixed groups (on a platonic level, not just for picking up dates) tend to be the most interesting. They're more inclined to talk about subjects I find fascinating, such as science and politics. When they flirt amongst each other, it's generally much more subtle and intellectual in nature—and thus not so annoying.

Yes, I think you've summed up the dynamic really well. I can sort of understand why it is that in mixed groups or interactions, the man and woman steer clear of discussion or "gossip" about the opposite gender, or comparing notes on their relationships or conquests, or whatever, but why do you think it is that women together don't talk about politics, philosophy, religion, or those 'deeper' topics?

I wonder actually whether it's just because I personally don't know enough NT type women. I find my two female colleagues at work (one NT, one NF) don't tend to talk about those boring, frivolous topics, and one can actually have a decent conversation with them on an 'issue of the day'.

[Haphazard]

When I am in a group that naturally separates along gender lines, I tend to go off by myself to read. I've found that women who mostly hang out with women are usually the sorts who chatter incessantly about guys and shopping. Likewise, I find that men who mostly hang out with men are usually the sorts who chatter incessantly about girls and sports. When the two come together, they flirt in the most annoying ways possible, usually with the men acting like pompous asses right out of middle school and the women feigning shock.

Men and women who gravitate toward mixed groups (on a platonic level, not just for picking up dates) tend to be the most interesting. They're more inclined to talk about subjects I find fascinating, such as science and politics. When they flirt amongst each other, it's generally much more subtle and intellectual in nature—and thus not so annoying.

That's very, very true. I'm just frankly not comfortable discussing things that women in their own little groups discuss, which likely accounts for popularity, or lack thereof. I'm not so good at small talk and chatter.

Unfortunately, at my age, it's difficult to talk to a relatively attractive guy on a regular basis without everyone assuming that you're going out. *sigh*

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Yes women with their little groups and their small talk and incessant chatter about guys, shopping, hair, makeup, purfume..........who can stand them?

[Haphazard]

Yes women with their little groups and their small talk and incessant chatter about guys, shopping, hair, makeup, purfume..........who can stand them?

Not true, exactly. I have a lot of women friends, mostly, being fiction junkies, we chatter on and on and on about books and comics and TV and of the like. Although I do see it lean into small talk territory when there are no guys around, it's not that they're unbearable.

When men or women are alone, ironically it becomes even more of a battle of the sexes than when they're together. And battles of the sexes are such wastes of time...

[Lucid]

You know, I really think it depends on the group of women in question.

Anecdotal evidence: I have a really good female friend who's dating one of my best and oldest male friends. He's a mechanic, she works as a secretary in a car dealership. She's not very girly, watches football religiously (she has, in fact, decorated one bathroom in broncos paraphernalia). Her bf hates sports, but is otherwise pretty "manly" and can talk for hours and hours about cars.

Well sometimes she and her bf have parties over at their place and while a lot of people from our core group of friends show up (mostly counterculture people of varying types), they also invite people from their work. All the men (mechanics and sales men) go in one room and talk about sports and cars and stereo components. All the women (secretaries) go in another room and talk about babies and make up and hair.
I don't want to be involved in either group's conversation. Not only am I sublimely bored by them, but I find that I have nothing to add on any of the above listed topics.

My core group of friends are mostly career oriented people. Most of them are T's. We talk about school or our careers or politics or religion or books we're reading or a variety of other interesting (at least in my opinion) topics. We will be the only group at one of these parties of mixed gender. And also the only group talking about anything even remotely intellectual.

I don't think it's a male/female thing. Cars are nice, but they're as boring to talk about in detail as makeup is. Sports can be good for breaking the ice, but how is it better or smarter than talking about hair products?
I think it's a matter of the intelligence level (and maybe education, either formal or informal) of any group. Nor do I mean to imply that it's a matter of mechanics and secretaries either. My friends who have these parties are themselves, one of each and can argue politics or philosophy with the best of us.

And I'm pretty sure that Vaguely Dissatisfied is being sarcastic. :thinking:

[Merle]

I think it's silly to suggest that there aren't women who do nothing but talk about hair and make-up blah blah, because we all know they do exist, however, in my experience they are actually a minority and if you're cutting yourself off from other women because of a silly stereotype like that then I think that's kind of sad. Just as there are certain women who I wouldn't want to spend time with so are there certain men - the kind that talk about nothing but sports, getting drunk and page three models - that doesn't mean that all men are like that. Blanket stereotyping is just dumb. I think the vast majority of people have a lot more to offer you than you might think and you're only doingyourself a disservice by pre-judging them. I am, of course, totally guilty of doing exactly that myself at times... but, from experience, I'd say it's a lot more rewarding to keep an open mind.

[Haphazard]

If Vaguely Dissatisfied's being sarcastic, I'm sorry. I haven't had a good night's sleep for about four days and am very, very tired. Tiredness tends to shut down my sarcasm receptors right quick.

If she's not, well you know.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

If Vaguely Dissatisfied's being sarcastic, I'm sorry. I haven't had a good night's sleep for about four days and am very, very tired. Tiredness tends to shut down my sarcasm receptors right quick.

If she's not, well you know.
I'm sorry I yanked your chain when you were tired. I think it's great that you think women are not unbearable. It's a resounding triumph for us all (that last sentance was sarcasm ..... sorry)

[Haphazard]

I'm sorry I yanked your chain when you were tired. I think it's great that you think women are not unbearable. It's a resounding triumph for us all (that last sentance was sarcasm ..... sorry)

Err, well, thanks.

A better question is, if I'm so tired that I'm unable to decipher sarcasm from seriousness, why am I on this forum at all? Isn't it a little dangerous for me to be wandering about in this state of mind?

I guess I can't be that tired if I'm still using proper syntax and not spelling everything phonetically yet...

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Err, well, thanks.

A better question is, if I'm so tired that I'm unable to decipher sarcasm from seriousness, why am I on this forum at all? Isn't it a little dangerous for me to be wandering about in this state of mind?

I guess I can't be that tired if I'm still using proper syntax and not spelling everything phonetically yet...
Completely understandable since my comments were very similar to many that have been made in complete seriousness. I do recommend sleep for you though. You need your beauty rest.

Now, I have to go do my nails and find my Cosmo magazine.........I'm sure there's something in there about how to please your man and keep him happy.........(sorry, did it again).

[Haphazard]

Completely understandable since my comments were very similar to many that have been made in complete seriousness. I do recommend sleep for you though. You need your beauty rest.

Now, I have to go do my nails and find my Cosmo magazine.........I'm sure there's something in there about how to please your man and keep him happy.........(sorry, did it again).

I'll get my beauty rest after I watch Death Note tonight. There's nothing like watching two bishounen INTXs in a battle of wits to the death.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I'll get my beauty rest after I watch Death Note tonight. There's nothing like watching two bishounen INTXs in a battle of wits to the death.
Absolutely nothing I can think of.

[meaniehaha]

I didn't know I was an INTJ until later in life.

It's really comforting to find others here whose outlooks and preferences are quite similar, women who dress for comfort first, don't like chit-chat, don't care for men into sports and cars or women into make-up, clothes, and gossip.

I don't need to rehash what's already been written anymore than I have already.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Me..........I like the men and women who are into sports and the women and men who are into makeup, clothes, and gossip.......I just don't like engaging in those activities with them.

[Merle]

well sure, I don't hate the people that like that stuff, I reserve my hate for the rude, obnoxious or downright evil... but I don't know if I'd say I like them... I don't really know anyone like that and I don't really like people until I get to know them... so the men and women that enjoy doing things that I don't enjoy just sort of exist on the periphery of my awareness... I don't like or dislike them.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Oh....well.........I know tons of people who like doing things that I don't like doing and quite a few of them are worth liking. Example, my sister is into makeup and clothes and also the most generous and kind person.

[Merle]

I'm not saying they're not worth liking. Just, I guess, that I take people on an individual basis. I imagine that many of the so-called girly girls that a lot of people here seem to despise are not all about thehair and the makeup and blah blah... they may talk about those things when together but that's just a social mechanism. I'm sure some of my friends may have people with whom that is the extent of their interaction, with me they talk about different things... and so I see them differently. Indeed, my youngest sister is very obsessed with how she looks and stuff and I do talk with her about hings like that sometimes because, in part she likes it, but also because I know she needs reassurance in that area - she talks about it and thinks about it because it worries her...but we talk about a lot of other things too.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Yes, my sister will talk about hair and makeup in one conversation and then switch over to some conference where she was lecturing about aboriginal women.

[Colette]

Maybe at the risk of being controversial and incurring the ire of fellow INTJ 'females' I feel I need to say something about my own views on what it means to be an 'INTJ female' in a general sense (putting the issue of conversations aside, for a moment).

I used to be very much of the view that my appearance didn't matter, I always dressed down, took no interest in clothes, hair, make-up, style, or any of those things I regarded as trivial, or anaethmatic to my sense of identity as an intellectual (which is primarily how I saw myself throughout most of my teens and 20s and to some extent still do). For most of my life I defined myself by living a 'life of the mind', and for all intents and purposes, was rather 'genderless' in terms of how I saw myself and how others probably perceived me.

Now late in my 30s, and having thought about the issues extensively, and read extensively of writers such as Colette, Anais Nin, and Jane Austen, I now consider it important to be and feel not just like a 'mind', but also, like a 'woman'; embracing my womanhood and femininity as part of who I truly am - as an important dimension of it. So now I think that I pay more attention to appearance, I like to dress in feminine ways (not always, will usually remain casual at home), but in certain contexts I like to 'dress up' a bit and wear colors, patterns, and skirts and dresses. I cultivate a fairly natural look in terms of hair and make-up, but nonetheless I look after my skin a lot (moisturizing twice a day now), and wear my hair in combs, with some light make-up on (usually a brownish lipstick). I avoid most other make-up, but will occasionally wear some brown eyeshadow and a little foundation if going out socially in the evening.

I've become more interested in jewellery too. Not the "bling" sort really, but rather jewellery that speaks to me and my image in some way, or has some symbolism for me.

[Merle]

I'm actually very particular about the way I dress and hair and makeup etc, I don't spend time talking about it generally but I do think about it enough to have an idea of the image I want to project and to follow through with that. I'm very tall and kind of intimidating looking so I like to dress simply but chicly, not that that's a word... but yeah. I generally wear cigarette cut jeans or trousers, and block-clolour tops - either blouses, sweaters or whatever in interesting cuts, I don't really wear a lot of jewellery because it tends to look over-done on me, and right now my hair is long and dark brown with a fringe; makeup wise, I do my eyes, always...usually shadow and black eyeliner. that's it, then I feel put together and feminine, but not frilly and I feel that suits my personality.

[JTG]

Rule 16. It had to be said, sorry. ...please don't hurt me

I do love women though. Personally, i prefer a woman to look and act in a feminine way, but more than that, i think everybody should be themselves regardless of what others think.

[Haphazard]

I can look very feminine if and when I like to. I do have an adequate amount of supplies to do so but I won't unless there's an occasion.

That said, I hate straightening my hair. I don't know if it's as popular around any of you, but my age group and class nearly dictates that all girls must straighten their hair, and that's ridiculous and unfair. Straightening hair on such a regular basis is such a symbolic act of conformity that I just can't bring myself to do it. I also believe that taking all the waves in my hair out pulls out all of the maturity out of my hair and replaces it with the look of a little girl. The waves in my hair are a part of who I'm becoming growing up.

...And when I can be coaxed into talking about hair, makeup, and clothes, this is generally how I talk.

[Merle]

Actually, it suprises me that so many women on here say they dress for comfort/practicality etc... because for me my clothes are a way for me to control my environment... sort of... not really making sense here... but anyway, in casual clothes - sweatpants blah blah, which I never wear - I feel very bleugh, and also uncontrolled. In the clothes I wear I feel like right, I know who I am, and I'm dressed in a way that other people will be able to recognize who I am, not frilly, not girly, but sharp, and independent.

[Haphazard]

Actually, it suprises me that so many women on here say they dress for comfort/practicality etc... because for me my clothes are a way for me to control my environment... sort of... not really making sense here... but anyway, in casual clothes - sweatpants blah blah, which I never wear - I feel very bleugh, and also uncontrolled. In the clothes I wear I feel like right, I know who I am, and I'm dressed in a way that other people will be able to recognize who I am, not frilly, not girly, but sharp, and independent.

I say it's pretty funny too because I don't dress to impress or dress extremely comfortably but instead I dress to blend in. I'd rather leave my personality a surprise and just dress somewhat casually but enough not to give an impression.

Still don't wear makeup, though.

[Merle]

I guess I just dress in a way that feels appropriate for me, and that I feel comfortable and myself in... which is I suppose what everyone else is saying too... it's not about dressing for attention.
But I don't really dress to blend in... I mean, I'm not actively seeking to stand out, but I don't feel a need to look like everyone else either. I just dress in a way that pleases me.

[Colette]

I guess I just dress in a way that feels appropriate for me, and that I feel comfortable and myself in... which is I suppose what everyone else is saying too... it's not about dressing for attention.
But I don't really dress to blend in... I mean, I'm not actively seeking to stand out, but I don't feel a need to look like everyone else either. I just dress in a way that pleases me.

Yes, me too. I have my own 'style' of sorts, which doesn't necessarily involve spending huge amounts of money at designer boutiques, or on imported facial products. In fact I buy most of my clothing at budget stores or Op-shops, and I just know what suits me, and mix and match to suit the kind of look I want to achieve. It's more about me than it is about (or for the benefit of) anyone else.

[Haphazard]

It's not that I dress for anybody else it's that my dress is toned down and pretty quiet. Most of my wardrobe is earth tones and neutrals so I don't usually stand out, unless I decide to wear that yellow trench coat of mine to throw everybody off.

I don't try to stand out, I don't need to, but I guess I don't dress like a lot of other people. What I consider 'normal' dress is probably different from a lot of other people's...

[Darkmist]

I have a preference for tasteful, classic attire when I 'dress up', though that is rare. Otherwise, I'm not into jewelry or anything that makes me stand out. Jeans, black, grey or deep hued teeshirts, good comfortable shoes or sandals. (Yes I wear sandals with socks on cold summer days and take the flack from S's for it, but whatever). I was more into fashion when young because it helped me blend into the group I hung out with, not because I cared. Now, I'm comfortable being me. If I want to dress up I will, most times I don't and it doesn't matter to me what people think. After a lifetime of trying to fit in to avoid notice and condemnation, I just don't care anymore. If people only like me when I am dressed according to their specifications, then they aren't worth my time. Life is too short for that.

I do however, wear eyeliner and sometimes foundation.

And blech to pastels and houses of uniform size with it seems easy to rob like layouts and white and beige interiors. I can't stand either.

[Haphazard]

Isn't it funny how we somehow stumbled onto the topic of makeup and clothes anyway? Lol.

I can't stand wearing makeup unless I'm in costume. It just physically feels like I'm putting on a mask. I can do it in costume, but not in everyday life.

[Merle]

yeah, I was thinking that:)
In costume? - are you an actress?

[Haphazard]

yeah, I was thinking that:)
In costume? - are you an actress?

No. I'm a total nerd and cosplay a few anime characters. I've done Orihime and Rukia of Bleach so far.

[Merle]

Ahh, ok I know nothing about anime so i don't know either of the characters you referred to lol...I'm a total nerd too though, in other areas...Sci-fi, literature in general, film blah blah

[vaguely dissatisfied]

And all of this talk of makeup and dress has not diminished my opinions of any one of you. Not that my opinion is all that important, but just to show that you can be a person who is a bit trivial and superficial in some ways and significant and deep in others. Perhaps alot of the makeup, dress, sports, cars talk is just lighthearted small talk and doesn't really tell us much about the real person.

[Uytuun]

Well, this is more about make-up and dress and their function and their relation to identity etc., so it's not your average "OMG, Clinique came out with a new range of velvetty blueish-purplish lipstick shades!!!"

And all of this talk of makeup and dress has not diminished my opinions of any one of you. Not that my opinion is all that important, but just to show that you can be a person who is a bit trivial and superficial in some ways and significant and deep in others. Perhaps alot of the makeup, dress, sports, cars talk is just lighthearted small talk and doesn't really tell us much about the real person.

And you can't be serious 24/7. Or well, I can't. ;)

[vaguely dissatisfied]

"Well, this is more about make-up and dress and their function and their relation to identity etc., so it's not your average "OMG, Clinique came out with a new range of velvetty blueish-purplish lipstick shades!!!"


Varying 'shades' of superficiality. Who's better? Who gets to decide?

[rwyatt365]

Varying 'shades' of superficiality. Who's better? Who gets to decide?
...why, the totally objective, unbiased, non-judgemental (cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent) INTJ men, of course!

[vaguely dissatisfied]

...why, the totally objective, unbiased, non-judgemental (cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent) INTJ men, of course!
I love sarcasm. You said so much.... and so succinctly.

[Uytuun]

So when the subject matter is make-up and dress the conversation is automatically supeficial? I'll have to disagree with you there.

[Haphazard]

I think it's not that INTJs don't like makeup and clothes but rather it's more that they're unable to talk about it lightheartedly.

I remember some friends trying to get me to join in on a conversation and I tried to explain that I'm no good at small talk. "Well, let's try big-talk instead." And we ended up talking about gay marriage rights.

I've done some research -- 'introverts' have trouble with small talk because while extroverts use small talk just to relate rather than to share information, introverts can't grasp the point and meaning to it and are therefore very bad at it. Things that are trivial aren't worth talking about because an introvert's brain is wired to use less energy, and therefore doesn't want to waste time thinking about it.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

And.........triviality/superficiality is in the eye of the beholder.

[Haphazard]

And.........triviality/superficiality is in the eye of the beholder.

But, by definition, small talk isn't talk that you're emotionally involved in, or at least not to a great degree. And why an introvert is so terrible at it is because to the brain it doesn't seem like something it should be investing time and brainpower into.

I know I have to consciously attempt small talk and try to force myself to pick up beats and whatnot while when I find something that I actually have a substantial opinion on, speaking suddenly becomes a lot easier.

If I find it trivial, I find it difficult to dedicate more than a couple sentences to it.

[Uytuun]

Things that are trivial aren't worth talking about because an introvert's brain is wired to use less energy, and therefore doesn't want to waste time thinking about it.

That's interesting because I've always felt that I'm kind of a low energy kind of person...

[Colette]

That's interesting because I've always felt that I'm kind of a low energy kind of person...

I am too - worryingly so at times (mind you, I do have a physical disability). However my social energy is extremely limited, and I actively tend to avoid phoning anyone except where it's work-related or necessary for 'administrative' reasons, or organizing any type of social event.

[integratedvelocity]

I can comment on makeup. If I choose to discuss it, I do not squeal, "Ooh, look at this amazing eye shadow! It's exactly like the one I'm wearing except sparkly! I have to buy this!" I am much more likely to say that I need a certain color to match something significant in my wardrobe and examine whether it fits into the cool, neutral, or warm palettes. I might even talk about the ingredients, if it is carcinogenic, etc.

And vaguely dissatisfied, I am so distraught that you found it apt to call Voluptuous Violet Lip-Plumping Lipgloss "velvetty blueish-purplish lipstick." Yes, I did actually check the name, it is real.

[Haphazard]

I am an extremely low energy person and do not have any physical disabilities. And that's sort of awful?

I can't talk to people for long periods of time. I have swells and valleys in conversations, and they're very intense, and if you can't hit something I have a strong opinion on, I'm not very interesting at all. Small talk is a genuine struggle for me.

[Antares]

I am an extremely low energy person and do not have any physical disabilities. And that's sort of awful?

I can't talk to people for long periods of time. I have swells and valleys in conversations, and they're very intense, and if you can't hit something I have a strong opinion on, I'm not very interesting at all. Small talk is a genuine struggle for me.

Same here. My best friend called a couple of days ago, and all we talked about stuff like if there are hot guys in her school and trust me. BORING. It didn't hit my interest, and although I really do want to have SOMETHING that I can talk to her about, I was bored the whole way and had to squeeze my brain to come up with something to say. Then, in the middle of the conversation, the phone died and I didn't bother to call back because I was thinking: Better now that's over.

I think I was the one who changed a lot. Before, I loved to talk about guys, romance and whatnot, but it just doesn't interest me anymore. I think I might have been INFJ at the time, but while I might have my fantasies, the rational side of me has always kept me tied to the ground. Somehow it bothers me not being able to lead a small talk with my best friends (it's ALL small talk. Nothing ever is serious. Really.), but I'd do it more readily if I like the topic.

[Agile]

Things that are trivial aren't worth talking about because an introvert's brain is wired to use less energy, and therefore doesn't want to waste time thinking about it.

I do not hold this point of view. I believe introversion and extroversion are reactions to a lack / presence of socialization skills.

I liken this to those who 'hunt and peck' on keyboards. A majority of them need to look as they type, and find typing anything tedious. I think so-called introverts are the same as their introverted counterparts.

I would like more info about your perspective, could you post a link?

[Haphazard]

I do not hold this point of view. I believe introversion and extroversion are reactions to a lack / presence of socialization skills.

I liken this to those who 'hunt and peck' on keyboards. A majority of them need to look as they type, and find typing anything tedious. I think so-called introverts are the same as their introverted counterparts.

I would like more info about your perspective, could you post a link?

This is not true. There is research to back up my claims.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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Just to name a few. Just type it on google and you'll get a million hits.

[Solaris]

I can comment on makeup. If I choose to discuss it, I do not squeal, "Ooh, look at this amazing eye shadow! It's exactly like the one I'm wearing except sparkly! I have to buy this!" I am much more likely to say that I need a certain color to match something significant in my wardrobe and examine whether it fits into the cool, neutral, or warm palettes. I might even talk about the ingredients, if it is carcinogenic, etc.

And vaguely dissatisfied, I am so distraught that you found it apt to call Voluptuous Violet Lip-Plumping Lipgloss "velvetty blueish-purplish lipstick." Yes, I did actually check the name, it is real.

I know this is way OT, but why not just call that color what it is? Bruised lips. That's all I can think of from that color name. It's actually funny to me.

I own, I think, two shades of eye shadow (they are very subtle) and one tube of mascara. I have two shades of lipstick -- one that looks better in summer, one for winter (when I am even more ghostlike in whiteness). I wear it when I feel like it. I don't get all wrapped up in girly stuff like this. Like so much else, I do it because I want to.

[Agile]

Thanks for the links, Haphazard. You have given me something to think about...this doesn't completely change my point of view about extra/introversion, as I am probably a shy extrovert, or a borderline case...

Not to mention the genetic predispositions (or at least prenatal) toward strength, speed, spatial intelligence, flexibility, disease, and a host of other issues, that can all be ultimately modified by some form of conditioning, exposure, or experience. Nevertheless, it still is important. Especially the part (someone commented on one of the links) where they note that many introverts find themselves superior to extroverts and vice versa. (we all know the stereotype is that extroverts are superior)...

Most men find me physically attractive, but when I don't do the girly, dasmel in distress thing...they can't handle it. I'm capable and independent. I find it insulting to assume otherwise.


I think I understand this. Sort of, anyway.

[Haphazard]

Thanks for the links, Haphazard. You have given me something to think about...this doesn't completely change my point of view about extra/introversion, as I am probably a shy extrovert, or a borderline case...

Not to mention the genetic predispositions (or at least prenatal) toward strength, speed, spatial intelligence, flexibility, disease, and a host of other issues, that can all be ultimately modified by some form of conditioning, exposure, or experience. Nevertheless, it still is important. Especially the part (someone commented on one of the links) where they note that many introverts find themselves superior to extroverts and vice versa. (we all know the stereotype is that extroverts are superior)...

Shyness and introversion are two totally different things.

My point is that introversion isn't a label for social ineptness. As for your example with the typing with peck typing, there are people who find typing tiring because they use peck typing and there are people who find typing tiring because it's actually tiresome.

Somebody can be both introverted and socially inept and somebody can be extroverted and socially inept, the difference is that one is the ability to handle social situations and the other is the ability to tolerate social situations and how much you enjoy them. There may be a connection, but they're not the same.

I don't like to think of introverts as superior to extroverts, it's just that I've noticed it's nearly impossible to get an extrovert to understand introverted tendencies. Usually extroverts don't readily understand that people need alone time. If an extrovert calls and an introvert says that they don't feel like talking right now, immediately the extrovert thinks that they did something wrong when really, usually the introvert actually doesn't want to talk.

[Parallel]

Hmmm before I knew I was an INTJ, I felt like I was born into the wrong sex. Not in the way that I wanted to actually be a male but in that I liked being a female but I definitely sensed that I thought more like a man than a woman.

Whenever I talk to other girls I can't stand very little small talk because it get's too annoyingly unnecessary or fake to me so I don't bond well in a group of girls that I don't know very well. And I like talking to guys better but then they sometimes seem too serious and boring for me. Sometimes I feel like I can't find anyone in the world that I really like.

In terms of finding romantic love, I usually consider most guys to be too girly or weak and yet I hate the total man's man. God it's so complicated being an INTJ female.

[Lynnefl]

Sorry, I couldn't get the mulit-quote function to work. I'm replying to Agile:

Lynnefl:
"Most men find me physically attractive, but when I don't do the girly, dasmel in distress thing...they can't handle it. I'm capable and independent. I find it insulting to assume otherwise."

I think I understand this. Sort of, anyway.

Agile, perhaps I didn't articulate myself well, but let me clarify.

Based on what I've read on this thread, some INTJ women do not put a lot of time and effort into their appearance. However, I think how I look belies who I am as an INTJ. I care about my appearance. I wear make-up and try to look my best at all times - even when I'm in casual attire. I believe some of this comes from being raised in the American South where women are taught, nearly religiously, to take care of their appearance. I also come from a long line of women who believe in LOOKING GOOD! LOL Also, being the perfectionist that I am, I'm not going to go out looking any kind of way. Although my confidence is more inwardly felt, I feel that how I look on the outside adds to my confidence. In essence, if I look good, then I feel good and am able to project more confidence. I also think that you will be treated based on how you look. If you look like you're a respectable person, that's how others are going to treat you.

Now, with all of that said, because I dress well and keep up my appearance, some men assume that I'm going to display stereotypical "feminine" behavior. Being an INTJ, nothing could be further from the truth. I think logically and rationally. I don't allow emotions to cloud the issue. I'm not touchy-feely. I also don't feel that I need a man or to be coupled up to be happy or to feel validated as a woman. That flies in the face of what society says men should expect from women and vice versa. When I don't behave in an ultra feminine way, despite my looks, some men get upset (for lack of a better word) with me.

Instead of thinking that they misinterpreted my appearance or judged me based on their own prejudices and stereotypes, the problem must be with me, not them. Their prejudices prevent them from seeing that they made a mistake in how they "read' me. As I said/wrote previously, I think it is insulting to always view women as "weak." To automatically assume that I'm going to act in a certain way, simply because I have a vagina, is demeaning. What two people are going to react the same way in any given situation? People are going to react to things based on their personality, genetics, how they were raised, their morals, etc.

I'm also capable, not only because of being an INTJ, but because it was reinforced by how I was raised. My father made sure that I knew how to put things together, change my own oil, and correctly read a map. I'm not saying that I do all that on my own all the time, but the knowledge is there. I was also taught how to manage my money and that I should be self-sufficient. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that I can't do for myself, and that I should be treated like a child or "be taken care of." Not only that, the economic reality is that most women have to work and need to have some skill(s).

But, I do believe that INTJ women can be vulnerable. We just don't like it or show it! I think a lot of INTJs (me included) think being vulnerable is synonymous with being weak. I'm slowly, but surely changing my opinion about that. Being vulnerable means that you're "capable of being physically or emotionally wounded; open to attack or damage" (thank you Merriam-Webster online). In the purest sense, EVERYONE, regardless of type, is vulnerable.

[Santana28]

You know, i *do* put a lot of time and thought into my appearance - just not in impressing people. I look for things that are cost-effective, comfortable, and neutral. I like to look nice, but sadly very few womens clothing fits all of the criteria - because womens clothing is targeted towards impressing other people, and thats exactly the opposite impression i am trying to put out. i am a tshirt and jeans kind of girl. i like long-waisted long sleeve shirts, and hi-rise boot cut jeans. i wear hats and glasses. i'll keep my coat on all night if its cold, rather than feel insecure about being the only one wearing a coat inside. i wear heavy boots. i am not opposed at all to hooded sweatshirts and cargo pants - they fit my criteria AND have the added bonus of having a lot of pocket storage space, which is good because obviously i dont carry a purse.

my rationale is this - if someone is going to be attracted to me based on my appearance, then i dont want to know them. if they see me as i am and still want to pursue me - big points for them. i am not unattractive in the least, but i do not use my looks in order to get attention. but when that special guy gets my full attention... its an honor to impress him with my looks, and especially if he enjoys showing me off!

[rwyatt365]

Every man - whether he admits it, or not - wants a gorgeous, exciting, "visually stimulating" partner. We want to roll over in the morning and think to ourselves, "Damn, I sure am good!", and pat ourselves on the back for having such a beautiful woman lying there beside us (of her own free will!). In addidtion, in that back of our primitive lizard-brain, we want that stunning beauty to be totally devoted and subservient to us - that way, she'll never leave us (and prove that we're really NOT that good), and be with us forever.

So that's why, when we see an attractive female, we want for her to want to be with us and we expect (somewhere deep down inside) for her to get all goo-goo eyed when she looks at us. Some men are more lizard-like in the expression of those desires, but there's not a man alive that doesn't (in his heart-of-hearts) want that. It's not so much that we want weakness, it's that we want you to want us and never to stop wanting us.

Unfortunately, all of that INTJ independence and self-reliance is contrary to this male desire. Independence says, "I don't need for you to be around for me to be a whole person". Self-reliance says, "You are not my master / hero / knight in shining armor". So the lizard-brain says, "Heckee, that pritty lil thang cain't rilly mean that! She juss needs a reel main an sum good luvin!", and we're off to the races.

Girls, we love ya. We're just victims of de-volution! ;)

[Santana28]

Every man - whether he admits it, or not - wants a gorgeous, exciting, "visually stimulating" partner. We want to roll over in the morning and think to ourselves, "Damn, I sure am good!", and pat ourselves on the back for having such a beautiful woman lying there beside us (of her own free will!). In addidtion, in that back of our primitive lizard-brain, we want that stunning beauty to be totally devoted and subservient to us - that way, she'll never leave us (and prove that we're really NOT that good), and be with us forever.

women dont roll over in bed wearing full makeup, their hair done, and all dressed up - we're naked! if you dont find us attractive and "visually stunning" on our most basic level (clothes not included) - then what the hell difference is it going to make if i get up and do all the rest??

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Girls, we love ya. We're just victims of de-volution!
Sounds like your saying every man - whether he admits it or not - is extremely insecure.

[CardinalXiminez]

Every man - whether he admits it, or not - wants a gorgeous, exciting, "visually stimulating" partner. We want to roll over in the morning and think to ourselves, "Damn, I sure am good!", and pat ourselves on the back for having such a beautiful woman lying there beside us (of her own free will!). In addidtion, in that back of our primitive lizard-brain, we want that stunning beauty to be totally devoted and subservient to us - that way, she'll never leave us (and prove that we're really NOT that good), and be with us forever.


As an heterosexual ENFP male, I drastically disagree.

I find the mere idea to live with a "totally devoted and subservient" girl repulsive, horrifying, and incredibly BORING!!!
There's no lizard brain to tell me otherwise.

We ENFPs have a big trouble with established norms, conventions, and social stereotypes. We simply don't understand them. As I have already written elsewhere, I am myself very "feminine", and I'm not ashamed nor embarrassed.

I don't know where you should put us on your evolutionary scale.





CardinalXiminez added to this post, 15 minutes and 53 seconds later...

Usually extroverts don't readily understand that people need alone time. If an extrovert calls and an introvert says that they don't feel like talking right now, immediately the extrovert thinks that they did something wrong when really, usually the introvert actually doesn't want to talk.

That's quite true. I've noticed it on many occasions. :blank:

[rwyatt365]

women dont roll over in bed wearing full makeup, their hair done, and all dressed up - we're naked! if you dont find us attractive and "visually stunning" on our most basic level (clothes not included) - then what the hell difference is it going to make if i get up and do all the rest??
But a visually stunning woman, stark naked is still visually stunning. Makup and "done" hair are icing on a tasty cake. As such, it makes no difference whatsoever.

Sounds like your saying every man - whether he admits it or not - is extremely insecure.
Precisely! I say "every" facetiously, but most every man has a vein of insecurity running though his psyche. Like many things, some are bigger than others. ;)