Internet Dating

[Colette]

OK well this is essentially an advice thread, not a thread about the pros and cons of internet dating sites.

I've decided to take the plunge and try internet dating, after hearing a few success stories from colleagues.

I'm interested to hear from anyone who's tried it, as to whether it's been successful or not, whether the experience was worthwhile/enjoyable, and any advice or tips you have for how to get the best out of it (as well as any things to avoid).

For example: did you contact as many people as possible and get conversations going with a few people before meeting any, or did you concentrate on one or just a few?

How revealing were you in your profile and messages, about yourself (including faults and major issues, etc)?
How did you decide who were the right people to contact, and determine whether someone you're messaging is really worth pursuing, or whether they're interested?
Did you include photos or not. If not, why not?


I want to avoid theorizing posts here - I'm just interested in actual experience.

[NephilimAzrael]

Do you mind me joining in with my interest? I have decided to inspect/experiment on one or two sites.
#I have requested that if anyone wants information, that they ask questions.
#I have left two photos (though personally, I find my image of little significance).
#I determine interest in the responses by their likeness to my interests and attitudes.
#Re revelation: see first point.
#I pay attention to a few responses.

So far, interest has been shown by others, but I have remained critical.

[Colette]

Do you mind me joining in with my interest? I have decided to inspect/experiment on one or two sites.
#I have requested that if anyone wants information, that they ask questions.
#I have left two photos (though personally, I find my image of little significance).
#I determine interest in the responses by their likeness to my interests and attitudes.
#Re revelation: see first point.
#I pay attention to a few responses.

So far, interest has been shown by others, but I have remained critical.

Oh cool, we can compare notes as we go. I haven't put photos on my profile (mainly because I fear being identified by colleagues and in my profession). I have decided to share them with someone if things progress beyond a few messages.

One thing I've noticed with the sites I'm using is that many of the guys seem very sporty and extravert (i.e. very social types). Have the INTJs who have tried this, included introversion in their profile? I don't want to meet strong extraverts - it wouldn't work, yet I don't want to sound negative either.

[NephilimAzrael]

If meeting them is a prospect, then it is best to state your introvertive traits outright (paradox?). The sporty types are often very interesting merely as a study of interest.#As a joke.# (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). So far I've been receiving a bit of interest, even with my "arrogance". Grab a bag, I think it is best to just be fortright. So try it.

What is your profession that it would cause you to be soncerned about your colleagues being investigative?

[Colette]

If meeting them is a prospect, then it is best to state your introvertive traits outright (paradox?). The sporty types are often very interesting merely as a study of interest.#As a joke.# (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). So far I've been receiving a bit of interest, even with my "arrogance". Grab a bag, I think it is best to just be fortright. So try it.

What is your profession that it would cause you to be soncerned about your colleagues being investigative?

The level of interest doesn't surprise me. On the sites I'm trying, it's roughly 57% women, 43% men. If it's the same where you are, you're likely to be spoilt for choice.

Legal profession. It's a small field (where I practice, anyway).

[Kemmler]

I think there are a lack of introverts because... well, they're simply introverts :P

[ElstonGunn]

So far I've been receiving a bit of interest, even with my "arrogance".

Some of the more cynical men among us would say the arrogance is the reason for your success. Bells and whistles.

I think it might be a good idea to state your introvertedness, though. It would definitely be a good idea if I were the guy doing this.

[Fej]

I would do it if I didn't have to pay. Apparently there isn't a big, popular FREE dating site.

Edit: I've used craigslist lol, and 99.9% of the postings of women are scams/bots. While the men's postings are all real. I guess women have an easier time finding a partner. That's not surprising.

[curiousjane]

I know people who have used craigslist, eHarmony, Match.com, Chemistry.com, yahoo personals, plentyoffish.com, and okaycupid.com.

Looking for ...

A serious relationship? Use eHarmony.
A good fit, POSSIBLE relationship? Match or Chemistry
Someone local? Yahoo Personals
A free site, but still has a personality profile test? Plentyoffish or okaycupid
A one-night stand or other casual encounter? Craigslist

[Reon]

I personally don't believe in online dating BUT two of my friends are in a really close online relation and have been since 3/4 years. They have meet in person and despite the three year difference (He was 15 she was 18) they are still dating (they've had their problems from time to time) and they plan on getting married after they both finish college.

I personally think that this relationship isn't going to work (The girl relies on him for her emotional support, she's told me if he ever left her she'd kill herself and i'm sure he knows that)

[curiousjane]

I thought plentyoffish.com was a big, popular free dating site. Well, I have not much idea about dating sites, I just run over its name somewhere.

It is. My friend uses it sometimes.

[Fej]

Thanks CJ for the free sites. And is OkCupid really free? I think I tried it once and they require one to pay to message people. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Noehelia]

It is. My friend uses it sometimes.

Oh, I deleted my previous post when I saw that you mentioned the same site and you already had an analysis for it. My post did not add anything more, plus, I really do not know almost anything about dating sites especially foreign ones.

I am a big fun of finding someone through internet but not through dating sites.

[curiousjane]

I personally think that this relationship isn't going to work (The girl relies on him for her emotional support, she's told me if he ever left her she'd kill herself and i'm sure he knows that)

Oh, goodness. That's awful.

I don't particularly like online dating, but I've tried it in the past, with varying results. I don't think it's for teenagers, though. It seems to be a viable option for busy young professionals, older singles in search of quality friendships (divorced, widowed, etc.), people who live in more remote areas, people who are more interested in intellect and conversation than levels of "hotness" in their potential partners, and those who need a nice, easy, entry into the world of dating.

It is NOT for insecure, needy types. That's a disaster waiting to happen. And I say this as a sometimes insecure person, myself. It is just not good.





curiousjane added to this post, 1 minutes and 18 seconds later...

Thanks CJ for the free sites. And is OkCupid really free? I think I tried it once and they require one to pay to message people. Maybe I'm wrong.

Not sure. I'll ask my friend. Hang on a sec ...

[Merle]

I used OK cupid briefly because I wanted to try something new and was fed up with the insularity of the dating pool at my college...
It was quite fun... you can chat with people and get to know them... I'd say there are a fairly large proportion of introverts on there.. oh and it is free, and the messaging is free.
I met one guy for a few dates, a research scientist, he was very nice but I ended up getting back together with an ex so never used it again.

Also, I know two couples who met through internet dating... although neither are introverted types in any way... but it certainly worked for them... both have been together about 3 years now.

[curiousjane]

OKCupid is totally free. Friend just verified this.

[seoa]

Colette
1. whether it's been successful or not, whether the experience was worthwhile/enjoyable
i didn't find anyone i liked when i tried a year or so ago, but i think i was overly fussy, and not enthusiastic enough... it's really easy to find reasons *not* to like people, when they're laying out loads of info about themselves online - you don't get that much info up-front IRL...
2. any advice or tips you have for how to get the best out of it (as well as any things to avoid)
a. don't be afraid to keep revising your profile... every month or two, i'd revise it (look at what other girls write - steal the good ideas... altho there's also something to be said for analysing how the guys are presenting info coz it's their psyche you're trying to appeal to, not another girl :))

b. photos, photos, photos... post them, and make them good ones... dating is about attraction... it might seem unfair /wrong, but it's human nature.... accept it, and post the darn photos...!

c. best advice i had was to sign up for 12 months... it's not that long in the grand scheme of things, and it really takes the pressure off... ultimately, if you end up finding the person you marry in less than those 12 months (and end up spending thousands on the wedding!!) are you really going to resent those extra few pounds /dollars you spent... obviously this is probably not relevant to teenagers, but otherwise i think it really does make sense...
3. did you contact as many people as possible and get conversations going with a few people before meeting any, or did you concentrate on one or just a few?
probably better to juggle a few people - if you focus on just one, you're more likely to assign too much importance to it, too quickly, which is rarely good... having a few on the go helps keep things in perspective... obviously once you start meeting up with people IRL, you'll want to think about what constitutes unreasonable levels of two-timing, but i really don't think that applies to the chatting /emailing /first-date stages...
4. How revealing were you in your profile and messages, about yourself (including faults and major issues, etc)?
never, never, never put negative stuff in there.... not negative attributes, and not negative language.... also avoid that in your intro emails.... the basic rule of "if you don't like yourself, why should i like you" absolutely & totally applies to the majority of human beings, and it's pretty easy to discern online....
5. How did you decide who were the right people to contact, and determine whether someone you're messaging is really worth pursuing, or whether they're interested?
a. hmmm..... i preferred it when the guys contacted me.... sexist but true... a single brief email to let them know you exist can be ok, but let them do the running... it's pretty much true that if a man is interested, he'll do something about it, despite what some of the INTJs on here say (don't forget that if they're online-dating, they've accepted that they're going to have to approach women!)....

b. best advice i had on this was to make sure you've spoken on the phone before meeting in person - sometimes people you get on with online turn out to be completely incomptable with you IRL - speaking to them can help figure this out before you waste time...

c. common practice is to agree to meet for a coffee /drink rather than for dinner... if you meet up with them, and the conversation is dire, you really don't wanna be stuck through a full dinner... "just a drink" gives you the option to dive out if it's bad, and extend to dinner or something if things are going well....

also solves the "should he pay" thing... some people feel strongly that the guy should pay for the first date - but if they're meeting a few people for first dates, that gets unreasonably expensive if it's dinner each time, and not really fair... "just a drink" is an easy way for him to buy the first round without spending too much, and prevents it becoming any kind of issue, if either you or he feels strongly about it....
6. Did you include photos or not. If not, why not?
post them, and make them good ones... dating is about attraction... it might seem unfair /wrong, but it's human nature.... accept it, and post the darn photos...!
AZRAELtheGHOST
7. I have requested that if anyone wants information, that they ask questions.
you don't say how much info you put on in addition to this question... if there's nothing for people to catch on to, they'll pass on to another profile that offers them something... your profile is your advert... you do need to hook 'em :)
8. I determine interest in the responses by their likeness to my interests and attitudes.
yep, you can quite quickly tell those who are sending pro-forma responses to people... if they send something that is all about them, and doesn't reference any point of connection to something i've written in my profile, then they don't deserve a response... it's not that hard to adapt a pro-forma to also mention why they're interested in me, so if they haven't bothered to spend that 5 minutes on me, they're not worth a response...
Colette
9. I haven't put photos on my profile (mainly because I fear being identified by colleagues and in my profession). I have decided to share them with someone if things progress beyond a few messages.
photos, photos, photos... post them, and make them good ones... dating is about attraction... it might seem unfair /wrong, but it's human nature.... accept it, and post the darn photos...!
10. One thing I've noticed with the sites I'm using is that many of the guys seem very sporty and extravert (i.e. very social types). Have the INTJs who have tried this, included introversion in their profile? I don't want to meet strong extraverts - it wouldn't work, yet I don't want to sound negative either.
i avoid mentioning anything that people can use as an auto-dismiss.... that would include my MBT... you can describe yourself in a way that sounds positive, but gives a sense of the kind of person you are in a relationship... i think i put something like "i like to socialise, but also like to hibernate" and somewhere else i put "i like to make the social plans about 50% of the time, but appreciate others making the plans the rest of the time"... avoid anything that sounds too prescriptive (like nagging!), and definitely only put positives in there, but you might as well be a little realistic too...

and above all, allow yourself to be surprised a little... don't lock down your profile at the start of this process so that you eliminate some really appropriate guys who might stretch your boundaries a little...


p.s. did i mention: photos, photos, photos... post them, and make them good ones... dating is about attraction... it might seem unfair /wrong, but it's human nature.... accept it, and post the darn photos...!

[elsdfr]

The only ones I've met off the internet in the past have turned out to be pretty weird in my eyes. Although I find most people strange when I have to get to know them. But generally they are socially inept in some way or another. Maybe if you where a normal person trying to meet someone weird it would work.

What kind of woman needs the internet to get a guy anyway?

[seoa]

What kind of woman needs the internet to get a guy anyway?
erm... didn't CJ already answer that one.... i'm just gonna quote her post:

I don't think it's for teenagers, though.

It seems to be a viable option for busy young professionals,

older singles in search of quality friendships (divorced, widowed, etc.),

people who live in more remote areas,

people who are more interested in intellect and conversation than levels of "hotness" in their potential partners,

and those who need a nice, easy, entry into the world of dating.

[elsdfr]

erm... corrected! perhaps I was jayded by my own situation, experiences and laziness. To be honest I didn't read your post either.

[curiousjane]

Should Colette be offended? Or even me? I mean you were questioning what kind of woman would try Internet dating. Obviously, many have. Many whom, I would venture to guess, are completely normal and equally capable (as are we) of finding people to date in more conventional ways.

For me, I tried it because I don't do the bar scene and was limited to my own small group of friends for social events ... when you're busy in your career, it doesn't leave a lot of time for goofing off and, really, what true introvert longs to go to a crowded, noisy place and pick up a guy/girl?

Now maybe a library ... ;)

[le Duc]

My wife and I met online (going to the same law school, but she was two years ahead of me and it was a distance-learning school). We really just became close friends online (both of us had many online friends). It worked for me because it allowed me to become an intellectual friend of a very attractive girl (had no idea what she looked like), and she found a guy who wasn't put off by her being so intelligent.

The first picture of mine that she saw was of me being pushed in a wheelchair (a temporary situation, but still not flattering) during a tour of the National Mall. First photo I saw of her was from a snowboarding trip where she was wearing her bigger brother's winter outfits... she looked rather chubby in them, actually.

Neither of us was particularly looking for a mate online, we just became best friends and then one thing lead to another. We celebrate our fifth anniversary in three weeks.:)

[Vastfnup]

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am going to try online dating myself. I did some reading on eharmony's advice page. They stated that people are 8 to 14 times more likely to check out a profile that has a photo than one that does not. (The multipliers 8 and 14 each relate to a gender, I forget which was which.) I just have to get a few decent photos. I have next to nothing of myself as far as pictures go. I am not one of those people who takes pictures....at all.

[Colette]

It is NOT for insecure, needy types. That's a disaster waiting to happen. And I say this as a sometimes insecure person, myself. It is just not good.


Do you think there are lots of insecure needy types on these sites? If so is it mostly the men or women, do you reckon?





Colette added to this post, 2 minutes and 26 seconds later...

The only ones I've met off the internet in the past have turned out to be pretty weird in my eyes. Although I find most people strange when I have to get to know them. But generally they are socially inept in some way or another. Maybe if you where a normal person trying to meet someone weird it would work.

What kind of woman needs the internet to get a guy anyway?

I'm not really going to delve into my reasons on this thread (the thread is more about the 'how to', not to the 'why'). But suffice to say the sites I'm on have huge numbers of normal, attractive, and successful women. They can't all be desperate and dysfunctional.

[tp6626]

Think I may well end up going down this route in the not-too-distant future.

I will need someone who is very interesting, as I get bored with people very quickly unless they keep my mind stimulated. They would preferably also meet a number of other 'requiremnts' that I won't go into.

The reasons I'm considering the internet include that:

1. The 'target' population I am looking for is very small.
2. I think that at the moment I'm not meeting a large enough volume of potential candidates in order to be able to find the above.
3. When I do go out round bars/clubs, you just cannot tell what people are really like, and I don't want to end up lumbered with someone inappropriate, or giving up and accepting just anybody.
4. I work away from home, and am usually very busy with work in general, so don't really have the time to invest in a 'real life' search.
5. I'm not very good at saying no to people, or disappointing them, so in the initial stages screening over the net does seem better.
6. I like the idea of getting to know someone, and screening out inappropriate people via the net before meeting them in person. Seems to me like a far more time-efficient way of going about the whole process.
7. I am getting more an more fed up with pubs/clubs/drinking lately as its not the place I feel most comfortable (I prefer quite surroundings where you can actually hear yourself speak)!

The only downsides I can think of are:

1. The perception of family / friends of this type of activity - though this doesn't really bother me too much.
2. The risk that these sites could just be made up of overly needy/dysfunctional types. However I assume this isn't the case and that there are alot of people just as 'normal' as myself there?

Anyway...

Not thought about 'how' to go about it yet though, so I'll keep my eye on this thread, it's looking pretty useful.

[Eric86]

I've never had any luck with dating sites. It's much easier for me to get to know people on the several different message boards that I'm on cause it's a far more relaxed environment, and I've found that it's easier/a lot more likely for others to actually give you a chance to get to know them and communicate instead of immediately forming an opinion of you. In fact, I met my girlfriend on one of those forums.:)

[Colette]

Think I may well end up going down this route in the not-too-distant future.

I will need someone who is very interesting, as I get bored with people very quickly unless they keep my mind stimulated. They would preferably also meet a number of other 'requiremnts' that I won't go into.

Ya know (don't take offence at this please) but I'm actively avoiding guys on the dating sites who have a list of 'requirements'. To me, I prefer to view people in a holistic sense, and have them see me in that way, rather than as a package of criteria that are either met, or not. To me, this is too much like going out shopping for a car; it takes the magical and mysterious element out of meeting a potential mate. I agree that it's good to have some 'bottom lines' (things that would be a complete dealbreaker in terms of even wanting to meet a person), such as the person using drugs or alcohol, being in another relationship, having a mental illness, or whatever (or it might be that the person has children and you only want someone without), but as far as other factors go, I'm very keen to avoid a sort of 'tick box' approach to people I make contact with on these sites.

2. I think that at the moment I'm not meeting a large enough volume of potential candidates in order to be able to find the above

This is really my main reason I think. I meet so few single men in my age group in ordinary circles, that my chances of finding a compatible person this way are so low as to be almost futile (or that's the opinion I've come to, anyway). Where I'm from there appears to be a huge disparity between single men and single women in my age group (and even in the younger groups), and this is evident even on the dating sites I've joined, where it's roughly 57% female, 43% male on each one. Effectively this means the women have to be more attractive and appealing than the men, to succeed in getting contacts - many of the men on the sites are pretty unappealing (and I'd say only one out of about 15 catches my eye at all).

6. I like the idea of getting to know someone, and screening out inappropriate people via the net before meeting them in person. Seems to me like a far more time-efficient way of going about the whole process.

Yes me too. I've only started recently with this process, and I'm quite keen on the idea of messaging a few people for a while, before meeting in person. By the time I meet someone I want to be fairly sure that we're compatible on a personality level and that there are no 'dealbreakers' for either of us. From there it will hopefully just be a question of whether the offline encounter matches online expectations, whether there is chemistry and attraction, and so on.

1. The perception of family / friends of this type of activity - though this doesn't really bother me too much.

I really don't care about this aspect, except to the extent that I haven't included a photo, so that I can't be identified by professional colleagues.

[JustMel]

I would do it if I didn't have to pay. Apparently there isn't a big, popular FREE dating site.

Edit: I've used craigslist lol, and 99.9% of the postings of women are scams/bots. While the men's postings are all real. I guess women have an easier time finding a partner. That's not surprising.

A friend of ours used plentyoffish.com and it was okay for her. It's totally free and has a lot of people.

I used the internet and chatrooms when I moved to a new city and talked with people and eventually would meet up for dinner or drinks somewhere and it was always okay. I have a couple of people I still keep in contact with periodically. I didn't meet the great love of my life online but my ex husband did meet his currect wife online--while we were still married........

[ElstonGunn]

it's pretty much true that if a man is interested, he'll do something about it, despite what some of the INTJs on here say (don't forget that if they're online-dating, they've accepted that they're going to have to approach women!)....

I wrote out a rant in reply to that, but I guess that wouldn't have improved anything. I'll just say that on a personal level, I disagree with you in the strongest possible way, and that I think it's a bad idea to use the same set of standards to analyze everyone you'd consider dating, and that I think it's terribly hypocritical to try to make other people follow standards that you give yourself a free pass on.

Of course, it's not like I've got a bitter old ax to grind or anything. ...Nope.

[seoa]

I wrote out a rant in reply to that, but I guess that wouldn't have improved anything. I'll just say that on a personal level, I disagree with you in the strongest possible way, and that I think it's a bad idea to use the same set of standards to analyze everyone you'd consider dating, and that I think it's terribly hypocritical to try to make other people follow standards that you give yourself a free pass on.

Of course, it's not like I've got a bitter old ax to grind or anything. ...Nope.
ha ha - yep, thought this might get a reaction... but i'm sticking by my original statement.

i have read & accepted that some (by no means all!) of the INTJs on here will not approach a woman under any circumstances, due to the second-guessing etc... but when this is mentioned, we non-intj girls are usually told to make the first approach.

and i did say that i'd send an initial "hello, you look interesting" brief email, but let the guy then start to pursue if he's got any interest in return.... i don't think this is incompatible with what you guys generally suggest.

also - and i really do think this is a big "also" - the type of INTJ who will not make the first move is exceedingly unlikely to be internet dating anyway... i mean, who would pay all that money /invest all that time, if they were utterly opposed to initiating any kind of contact...

and - i did follow the advice on this forum, and asked out MFI (my fav intj).... who was not interested.... ok, it's a sample of one, but it really isn't that i'm not prepared to ask someone out & be rejected... i just think it's pretty much true that "he's just not that into you" if he's not showing any signs of interest to start with (if you've at least indicated some interest on your part to start with)....

you're pretty young still elston, i think (so young to be so bitter!).... it could easily be that you just haven't met a woman yet who inspires you sufficiently to pursue.... you could just be [sensibly] picky in your criteria.... i wouldn't be surprised if you surprise yourself when she comes along...

[Colette]

a. don't be afraid to keep revising your profile... every month or two, i'd revise it (look at what other girls write - steal the good ideas... altho there's also something to be said for analysing how the guys are presenting info coz it's their psyche you're trying to appeal to, not another girl :))

Yeah, I've been doing this already, as I think of more things I'd like to add, or things I maybe shouldn't have said.

b. photos, photos, photos... post them, and make them good ones... dating is about attraction... it might seem unfair /wrong, but it's human nature.... accept it, and post the darn photos...!

Intuitively I suspect you're right, but I also wonder if posting my photo might attract lots of the wrong kinda person (the ESTP 'bloke' type). In real life it's often these extravert sensor types who tend to be attracted to my physical image, and then once they talk to me they aren't interested (and nor am I) :)

Well maybe I'm going to sound sexist now, but my gut feeling is that women are more likely to attract a shallow guy by posting photos, than men are, because I think men are generally more preoccupied by appearance (at least initially) than women. Feel free to shoot me down in flames men, if you think I'm wrong about this!

c. best advice i had was to sign up for 12 months... it's not that long in the grand scheme of things, and it really takes the pressure off... ultimately, if you end up finding the person you marry in less than those 12 months (and end up spending thousands on the wedding!!) are you really going to resent those extra few pounds /dollars you spent... obviously this is probably not relevant to teenagers, but otherwise i think it really does make sense...

I've signed up for 12 months - it was a much better deal overall, and as you say, takes the time pressure off and allows me time to reflect on who I really want to be contacting, and to look at new people as they sign up.

probably better to juggle a few people - if you focus on just one, you're more likely to assign too much importance to it, too quickly, which is rarely good... having a few on the go helps keep things in perspective... obviously once you start meeting up with people IRL, you'll want to think about what constitutes unreasonable levels of two-timing, but i really don't think that applies to the chatting /emailing /first-date stages...

I agree, and I don't see it as two-timing at all. However knowing how atrocious my memory is, I'll probably humiliate myself at some stage by forgetting what I've told people, and repeating myself, or referring back to things that some other guy said :)

never, never, never put negative stuff in there.... not negative attributes, and not negative language.... also avoid that in your intro emails.... the basic rule of "if you don't like yourself, why should i like you" absolutely & totally applies to the majority of human beings, and it's pretty easy to discern online....

This is actually becoming one of the more difficult issues for me with this process. I have a couple of factors concerning myself that may be quite off-putting to some people (others may not be bothered by them). Should I be honest and upfront about these, or wait till I meet someone to disclose these things? I'm really not sure about this one.

a. hmmm..... i preferred it when the guys contacted me.... sexist but true... a single brief email to let them know you exist can be ok, but let them do the running... it's pretty much true that if a man is interested, he'll do something about it, despite what some of the INTJs on here say (don't forget that if they're online-dating, they've accepted that they're going to have to approach women!)....

Yeah me too. I don't want to be doing all the running with the contacting part of it. If they're interested I expect them to contact me. One one site I can send a 'smile' if I like someone's profile, and this is a good way of letting them know I might be interested. I'm doing this mainly because my lack of a photo means I may not be seen by people who search on 'photo first' or 'photo only'.

[tp6626]

Ya know (don't take offence at this please) but I'm actively avoiding guys on the dating sites who have a list of 'requirements'.

Yeah I felt that was going to sound bad when I was writing it, but didn't want to elaborate much at the time. Its not really a list of 'requirements' in the sense: brown eyes, long legs, dark hair etc. Its more an idea in my mind of the things that would definitely put me off. Kind of like clues that I wouldn't be able to put up with the person for too long. For example, if they mentioned that they hated books or learning, that would blow it for me. Now in a club, a girl isn't really gonna come up to me and go "I really hate learning". I can't usually hear a thing anyway!

Another reason I didn't go into 'requirements' or 'non-requirements' too much was that I don't really know them until I meet the person, and one turn-off can be compensated for by a pro elsewhere. The main point I wanted to get across though was that the type's of girls I'm meeting in bars now are really not conveying the 'appropriate' image to me (whatever that may actually be).

Where I'm from there appears to be a huge disparity between single men and single women in my age group (and even in the younger groups), and this is evident even on the dating sites I've joined, where it's roughly 57% female, 43% male on each one.
This surprises me. I take it that's the US? Wonder if its different here in the UK?

From there it will hopefully just be a question of whether the offline encounter matches online expectations, whether there is chemistry and attraction, and so on.
I'm suspicious of this. In real life when you meet someone who interests you, its usually a nice surprise and that feeds the chemistry a little. I'd assume the net takes that out of it???

I really don't care about this aspect, except to the extent that I haven't included a photo, so that I can't be identified by professional colleagues.
I'd bite the bullet and put photos on. Your professional colleague's aren't gonna be browsing a pay site unless they're on there themselves, in which case they must be accepting of it. And if its gonna increase the volume of candidates checking you out by about 10 times, surely the pro's outweigh the con's there?

[Kemmler]

I've actually given up on meeting girls overall, and no I'm not going gay.

The main reasons why I've given up?
First and foremost: my two female friends... long story, if you want to know I can tell you
Second: I'm introvert in the extreme, except for forums, forums are allways fun :) and I suspect I might be paranoid, anyways I have issues with meeting people and such blablabla....

What I was going to say was; just watch out so you don't get scammed or assaulted when meeting IRL or something like that. There was something else but I forgot what it was....

[elsdfr]

I still say "INTERNET DATING" is full of weirdos. Case In point, thank you.

[thod]

The most common response I hear form females is not the inability to meet males but an inability to meet quality males. Alas the criteria set out are frequently unrealistic, there are very few self made billionaires with Olympic medals and Phd's who are also sensitive, caring, and devoted lovers left on the market. Such a male would be pursued by similar females, which you are not.

We are therefore stuck with finding one that is merely acceptable. If you are pretty then it will attract all males including the types you assume you don't want. You could filter this by advertising for a nerd. The nerds tend to have esoteric interests that would lead to conversation. The macho types would never admit to being such, its like advertising for a man with a small penis. I am of the opinion that most INTJ females are nerdettes anyhow and would work well with such.

Be aware that 90% of males are not thinking about relationships. To them meeting a girl means meeting a potential sex partner. The relationship thing only comes with time, it creeps up on them and, hey presto, they are in a relationship.

P.S. I am intrigued. Which city is it that has such a large sex disparity? I assume you are not over 65 where this would be normal.

[ElstonGunn]

also - and i really do think this is a big "also" - the type of INTJ who will not make the first move is exceedingly unlikely to be internet dating anyway... i mean, who would pay all that money /invest all that time, if they were utterly opposed to initiating any kind of contact...

That's true. I was kind of going off on a semi-related tangent, but you make a good point.



i just think it's pretty much true that "he's just not that into you" if he's not showing any signs of interest to start with (if you've at least indicated some interest on your part to start with)....

Okay, but what qualifies as a sign or a lack of a sign? Do you think you'd get the same kind of indication of interest from a stilted, nervous weenie that you'd get from Mr Personality?


you're pretty young still elston, i think (so young to be so bitter!).... it could easily be that you just haven't met a woman yet who inspires you sufficiently to pursue.... you could just be [sensibly] picky in your criteria.... i wouldn't be surprised if you surprise yourself when she comes along...

Pickiness might be a part of it, but I assure you that I can carry a torch with the best of 'em. Pursuit just doesn't go over with me. It's like saying that I haven't found anyone who inspires me enough to set my shorts on fire. I don't understand that. Why would I want to set my shorts on fire? That doesn't sound good. What's the point? Should I do it just because it's expected that I'll set fire to my shorts if I like someone enough? How is that related to my level of interest in a person anyway?

[schwartzie]

The most common response I hear ... is not the inability to meet males but [with] ... finding one that is merely acceptable.

If you are pretty then it will attract all males including the types you assume you don't want. You could filter this by advertising for a nerd. The nerds tend to have esoteric interests that would lead to conversation. ...
I am of the opinion that most INTJ females are nerdettes anyhow and would work well with such.

A report from the field. Your hypothesis about filtering has been tested and it works. Well. Or, close enough anyway; the advert sought, not "nerds", but "geeks." Smart ones. And introverted, rationalist, left-leaning, in the desired age range.

The response was lovely. Like pouring cool spring water on a parched bit o' garden, the desired types unabashedly stepped forward and the icky ones mostly didn't.

My inbox is safe. :lovestruck:

A much harder problem is presented by the MBTI recommendation that, for intimate relationships, cross-typology pairings are best. In our case, INTJ with ENFP. In the interest of science, I feel the obligation to at least test this claim. But, it's not something I'm looking forward to.

First, I have no clue how to seek or identify ENFPs. (I can just see it-- "Wanted: happy, outgoing, sensitive, etc. man...." I'll be crushed with responses that I won't know how to screen and will spend the next month receiving bedraggled bouquets and being forced to *ick* hold hands with overly-assertive feeling types....) :faint:

Second, I'm skeptical about the MBTI opinion. I've never been attracted to male E or F types. *sigh* How can this possibly be an ideal pairing? It sounds like work to even look for one....

And, last, I am fearful that if I somehow successfully locate an ENFP, it would, like E and F types tend to do, eat me. :scared:

*thinking...."Maybe, if I do this, I could wander over to the NF thread and hire a ghost author/screener...."*

[karenk]

I've actually given up on meeting girls overall, and no I'm not going gay.

The main reasons why I've given up?
First and foremost: my two female friends... long story, if you want to know I can tell you
Second: I'm introvert in the extreme, except for forums, forums are allways fun :) and I suspect I might be paranoid, anyways I have issues with meeting people and such blablabla....

What I was going to say was; just watch out so you don't get scammed or assaulted when meeting IRL or something like that. There was something else but I forgot what it was....


Yes I'm interested in your two female friends story....

[tp6626]

Me too but i was being too polite to say. KarenK beat me to it though!

[Fej]

Yes I'm interested in your two female friends story....

So am I, please tell us

[Kemmler]

Haha, didn't really expect that, it's no biggie really but if you want to hear...

One of the said females are an ESFP and the other one, I don't know, she didn't bother to take the test...

Anyways theese girls love partying and being around people and stuff like that... I on the other hand - not so much. The thing is that theese girls have alot of sex partners, which doesn't bother me at all, but what does is that they - cannot - stop - talking about them...

so they always go around telling me "oh, he's so handsome, look at his muscles and his pretty face and blablabla" ofcourse I sound jealous, because I happen to have what theese guys don't have, a working brain.

now, this does not sound like anything special, but after a while it kinda gets to you, it's like indirectly everytime I see them, they tell me how I not good enough and so on and so forth, it's kinda hard to explain.

another part is how they always compare their partners, not with each other like that, but how good they are and so on, and how great they are compared to that other guy they had last week. That is totally normal, it's just like watching an episode of "sex and the city" or whatever. But suddenly it hits me, every girl probably does this comparing thingy, right? or most maybe, that means that I will also be "evaluated" and with my great self-confidence, that will be no problem[/sarcasm off]

So to summarise it, because of my friends constant sexscapades and their inability to keep things to themselves I have been, I don't know how to say it... goddamn you english! repelled? is that good enough? it will have to do...

so you see, no big thing really, it's just my poor self-confidence kicking me in the nuts :(

[karenk]

That's probably more common with the ES types. I wonder if that's the type you're attracted to so that's why it would affect your decision.

[Colette]

A report from the field. Your hypothesis about filtering has been tested and it works. Well. Or, close enough anyway; the advert sought, not "nerds", but "geeks." Smart ones. And introverted, rationalist, left-leaning, in the desired age range.

The response was lovely. Like pouring cool spring water on a parched bit o' garden, the desired types unabashedly stepped forward and the icky ones mostly didn't.

My inbox is safe. :lovestruck:

Hehe, well maybe I'll try this out. So far just about every male profile I've read says "sporty" and "outgoing/social" (or variations on that theme). So if I can smoke out some geeks I'll be surprised and delighted :)

A much harder problem is presented by the MBTI recommendation that, for intimate relationships, cross-typology pairings are best. In our case, INTJ with ENFP. In the interest of science, I feel the obligation to at least test this claim. But, it's not something I'm looking forward to.

Apart from being 'eaten alive', I can't actually see myself with either an E or a P type. I haven't so far been analyzing my needs in terms of type, but I certainly don't want a very social type, and a P might drive me crazy with their chaotic lifestyle and lack of planning and organization. Might be OK for dating, but unlikely to work in a domestic setting if it ever came to that.

Hmm...somehow your post has just made me feel like Bridget Jones on a bad hair day :(

[Kemmler]

Well, there are many variations on geeks and nerds, what type are you looking for? ^^

[Fej]

I just signed up for Plentyoffish and OkCupid and most of the women near my area are ugly, nearly 50% of them are BBW's Lol
I messaged about 5 girls that were ok-looking on plentyoffish(OkCupid sucks), lets see what happens. Although I'll probably won't receive a message back.

I'll have to find something else that takes off my mind the desire to have a partner.

[Colette]

Well, there are many variations on geeks and nerds, what type are you looking for? ^^

Set out the variations for me, and I'll let you know. Is there such a thing as a 'neek' or a 'gerd'?

I find it pretty hard to effectively 'shop' for people using a list of requirements or criteria, and yet this is what dating sites are all about. I wonder at times if I'm cut from the right cloth to even participate in this kind of dating...

[curiousjane]

I haven't so far been analyzing my needs in terms of type, but I certainly don't want a very social type, and a P might drive me crazy with their chaotic lifestyle and lack of planning and organization. Might be OK for dating, but unlikely to work in a domestic setting if it ever came to that.

If it helps, not all Ps are always like that. Some just like to allow for change, but do, in fact, plan and organize.

[Evalind]

I didn't read this thread very carefully... I'm just jumping in to share my personal experiences.

I became interested in internet dating after I transfered colleges. I had moved to a new place where I didn't know anyone at all, and being very introverted, I'm not exactly the type to start a conversation with a stranger.

Everyone I met online lived relatively close to me. I did this on purpose - I did not want to date over the internet, I just wanted to use it to meet new people and meeting someone online first gave me the chance to see if we had a few common interests. Knowing that so-and-so also liked photography and bowling gave me conversation topics to work with.

All the sites I used were free, but that was 8 years ago, so they're all defunct now or have turned into pay sites. Anyway, I'd fill in my profile with some basics about myself, my interests, my career intentions, etc. and I'd include a photo. I didn't have the best luck with this - the guys who messaged me were rarely my type. At some point I decided to be a bit more proactive and contact the guys I found interesting rather than waiting for them to find me.

The majority of the guys I met in real life were "ok" but not great. One was cheating on his girlfriend, but I didn't figure it out until our second date - I never talked to him again after that. One was a tad needy and was also so captivated by my personality that I knew I'd grow bored with him quickly, so I only went out with him two or three times. One was a fantastic guy, great kisser, and if our relationship goals had matched I probably would have dated him for quite a while. One guy I just didn't click with, so we only had one short date.

Then, oh then... then I met my husband. ;)

We only chatted online for a couple of weeks before meeting in person. After having experimented with online dating for several months, I found that it was important to meet before too long so that I had fewer expectations of the other person's body language. We had lunch, so that if it didn't go well I had an excuse to leave. (I had class that afternoon.) All in all, I was very selfish about the whole process. I had to figure out if liked him first, making a good impression was secondary.

To summarize... I was proactive, trying to find what I wanted rather than waiting for it to find me. I kept the online interaction to a short time frame before meeting in person to ensure my expectations didn't get too nutty. I wasn't afraid to have a bad date, it's just part of the process.

[127001]

A report from the field. Your hypothesis about filtering has been tested and it works. Well. Or, close enough anyway; the advert sought, not "nerds", but "geeks." Smart ones. And introverted, rationalist, left-leaning, in the desired age range.

The response was lovely. Like pouring cool spring water on a parched bit o' garden, the desired types unabashedly stepped forward and the icky ones mostly didn't.

My inbox is safe. :lovestruck:

A much harder problem is presented by the MBTI recommendation that, for intimate relationships, cross-typology pairings are best. In our case, INTJ with ENFP. In the interest of science, I feel the obligation to at least test this claim. But, it's not something I'm looking forward to.

First, I have no clue how to seek or identify ENFPs. (I can just see it-- "Wanted: happy, outgoing, sensitive, etc. man...." I'll be crushed with responses that I won't know how to screen and will spend the next month receiving bedraggled bouquets and being forced to *ick* hold hands with overly-assertive feeling types....) :faint:

Second, I'm skeptical about the MBTI opinion. I've never been attracted to male E or F types. *sigh* How can this possibly be an ideal pairing? It sounds like work to even look for one....

And, last, I am fearful that if I somehow successfully locate an ENFP, it would, like E and F types tend to do, eat me. :scared:

*thinking...."Maybe, if I do this, I could wander over to the NF thread and hire a ghost author/screener...."*


I too have heard this, that an ENFP is supposedly the best match for an INTJ. Naturally, I question it since that's a little too opposite for my tastes.

However, lately I have found myself more and more attracted to a lovely female coworker of mine that I would guess is an ESFJ or something close. Very outgoing and open, but intelligent and capable of getting stuff done.

I'm working hard to ignore my attraction to her, for the reason that I don't believe us to be compatible, among others, but this would be a lot easier if she didn't appear so damn interested in me all the time.

[iuniperus]

I guess I really don't understand the concept of internet dating. I mean, is it really that hard to meet somebody you like in real life? I've never actively pursued being in a relationship before (like I felt that I had to go looking for one), they always just seem to come to me.

I actually met my current boyfriend online, who messaged me on a social networking site. I found this arrangement more comfortable than just meeting somebody you like in person. I really got to see what he was like and made sure I really genuinely liked him before I agreed to meet him. An introvert's time is precious, they don't want to waste going on dates with people they possibly won't like.

[tp6626]

I've never actively pursued being in a relationship before (like I felt that I had to go looking for one), they always just seem to come to me.

That's because you're female, and (going by your photos in members pics) extremely hot. It's no coincidence that they just seem to come to you; there are just probably a lot of introverted men out there that aren't confident enough to just come to you.

[iuniperus]

It's no coincidence that they just seem to come to you; there are just probably a lot of introverted men out there that aren't confident enough to just come to you.

I found out that I definitely like introverted men better. They give you your own space, they're not clingy, and they're respectful and respectable. Their mouth isn't constantly running and you know they mean what they say.

Like you said, the problem is meeting them. I would never go up to a someone and initiate anything, I don't think an introverted male would either. Thus us introverts always end up with extraverts because they're the ones who approach us. It's really a feat of nature that I ended up with an IXTJ.

Does anyone else find introverts more appealing?

[ScurvyRose]

Tips based upon experience:

1. Do not waste a great deal of your time with messaging, talking, etc. See the person, in person. Approx 85% of the time they look nothing like the picture they posted of them from years or decades before.

2. Keep the meeting place casual, and brief. Do not have your meeting take place for a movie! Too long, they will talk during the movie trying to get to know you, and they still don't look like their picture. See #3

3. Iced coffee at your local shop is great. Get there a bit early and see how they got there, how long it takes them to get out of the car, etc. Watch from your car, and go in after them (if you still want to!).

4. ALWAYS tell someone where you are going, who you are meeting, and arrange check-ins either in person (they were there the whole time) or by phone. Not text!

I tried internet dating a few years ago, and some of the SAME guys are still there, active, and with the same pictures! If you try the internet, use it as an accessory to your search, not the sole source of your flirting and experiences. You will likely be disapointed by the wasted time, unless your one of those few lucky ones.

[Colette]

I guess I really don't understand the concept of internet dating. I mean, is it really that hard to meet somebody you like in real life? I've never actively pursued being in a relationship before (like I felt that I had to go looking for one), they always just seem to come to me.


If that's happening for you I'd say you're lucky, not the norm. In my age group there are very few single men, and for those who are still single, there are sometimes reasons which make the guy pretty unappealing..

[ElstonGunn]

I mean, is it really that hard to meet somebody you like in real life? I've never actively pursued being in a relationship before (like I felt that I had to go looking for one), they always just seem to come to me.

I actually met my current boyfriend online, who messaged me on a social networking site. I found this arrangement more comfortable than just meeting somebody you like in person.

Disregarding the fact that you suck and I hate you (I'm kidding of course), I'm just going to move on and point out that if your current relationship is any indication, then yes, it looks as though meeting someone online can sometimes be easier than doing it in real life.

[thod]

I sat down in front of the TV last night with a bottle of wine, I do that on occasion. Then on TV, up comes and advert for one of the dating agencies. They were asking for men because they have so many women registered. I couldn't believe it, since when have men been rare.

I started recalling some of the brothels I have visited where the women line up and you take your pick. Still I am not registering, on the one hand that would be admitting defeat, on the other I like my solitude. Women are so unreasonable. As an introvert, I want a chat for an hour or two, then some hot sex, before pottering about doing my own stuff alone. Not all this nagging to get stuff that I don't care about done, and dealing with relationship problems that I don't recognize as existing.

[ScurvyRose]

I like all of the alone time that I have, and the time I spend with the kids. I do have to admit that it would be nice to have someone my age to talk and debate with on occassion (among other things)!:surprised:

[konec]

I like all of the alone time that I have, and the time I spend with the kids. I do have to admit that it would be nice to have someone my age to talk and debate with on occassion (among other things)!:surprised:

It's probably the trout slapping that keeps them at a save distance :scared:

[127001]

Thus us introverts always end up with extraverts because they're the ones who approach us.

A good point, and definitely a true one.

I actually met my last girlfriend on an online video game, completely by accident. The relationship lasted a few months and was very intense, but now it's over. We turned out to be incompatible on several critical levels that weren't immediately apparent. It was a good learning experience though, and I'm aware that it can well happen again.

I've always hated dating, 80% of the women in the world are not my type at all and nothing can change that.

[schwartzie]

Someone pointed out on another thread that if you are an intj interested in intjs, you are only about 1-2 percent of the population, so, right from the start, you are lookin' for one person in a hundred. Factor in .50 for gender, at most .50 for personality, height or other basic differences, at most .15 for age compatibility. Among introverts, a significant number of those will be too emotionally damaged to maintain a relationship. So, something way less than 1 in a thousand meetings would be with a potential compatible person.

Now, I am an introvert. I am not (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) going to meet a thousand people, let alone date them.

I think (... dare I say it... yes! ) a PLAN is needed here.

[ScurvyRose]

It's probably the trout slapping that keeps them at a save distance :scared:

Lol! Well, if I can't be me, it wouldn't work anyways! I just saved myself some time!

[127001]

Someone pointed out on another thread that if you are an intj interested in intjs, you are only about 1-2 percent of the population, so, right from the start, you are lookin' for one person in a hundred. Factor in .50 for gender, at most .50 for personality, height or other basic differences, at most .15 for age compatibility. Among introverts, a significant number of those will be too emotionally damaged to maintain a relationship. So, something way less than 1 in a thousand meetings would be with a potential compatible person.

Now, I am an introvert. I am not (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) going to meet a thousand people, let alone date them.

I think (... dare I say it... yes! ) a PLAN is needed here.


By "PLAN" do you mean "Aw screw it, I'll just be a brilliant scientist/artist/engineer/inventor/CEO"?

I think the point I'm at is that most girls won't work for me, but I'm pulling for one that will. I might yet get my number called!

[ScurvyRose]

For someone I am perfect, the rest I will just piss off.

Sometimes you just have to accept it, or give up trying. In the meantime I try not to waste my time. Online is ok for contacts, but there has to be that in person spark for me to even bother. I am not looking for a pen-pal, and I have enough friends.

[127001]

Does anyone else find introverts more appealing?

Yes, girls that flirt constantly with everything that's male bring out the F in me.

I have a great appreciation for quiet girls that wait to be discovered by someone that can really handle them and their fiery intellect.

[ElstonGunn]

Among introverts, a significant number of those will be too emotionally damaged to maintain a relationship.

Emotionally damaged? Would you find that among extraverts as well, or have they convinced you that you're defective?

[maabus1999]

Someone pointed out on another thread that if you are an intj interested in intjs, you are only about 1-2 percent of the population, so, right from the start, you are lookin' for one person in a hundred. Factor in .50 for gender, at most .50 for personality, height or other basic differences, at most .15 for age compatibility. Among introverts, a significant number of those will be too emotionally damaged to maintain a relationship. So, something way less than 1 in a thousand meetings would be with a potential compatible person.

Now, I am an introvert. I am not (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) going to meet a thousand people, let alone date them.

I think (... dare I say it... yes! ) a PLAN is needed here.

I think you are looking at the math wrong here when it comes to relationships. This might work with a random sampling of every person you ever LOOKED at, but not a meeting.

When it comes down to it, 1% of all the people you decide to "meet" from the correct gender and age group are INTJ's. It is not exclusive like your math made it seem.

[curiousjane]

*sigh*

It all seems so impossible, online or otherwise. What are the real odds of meeting a person who not only is a good fit, but is also disease-free, emotionally balanced, financially stable, and ... above ALL else ... thinks YOU are a good fit, too?

Where do all these people meet their partners? And why do we even try?

[/rant]

Despite it all, I still hold out hope that the method of meeting is less important than the quality of the friendship that leads into a relationship that becomes something truly satisfying and enriching.

And no matter what anyone says about the awkwardness of admitting you met online, that pales in comparison to having met that person at all. Quite frankly, online dating is NOT easier. It's harder. There are more variables that come into play. It takes determination and a bit of level-headedness to come out with a good match.

But they ARE out there.

[azelismia]

I know people who have used craigslist, eHarmony, Match.com, Chemistry.com, yahoo personals, plentyoffish.com, and okaycupid.com.

Looking for ...

A serious relationship? Use eHarmony.
A good fit, POSSIBLE relationship? Match or Chemistry
Someone local? Yahoo Personals
A free site, but still has a personality profile test? Plentyoffish or okaycupid
A one-night stand or other casual encounter? Craigslist


no, don't use eharmony.. eharmony will only match you with F types. in fact, odds are as an intj they'll tell you to get lost, they don't take your type. no kidding. I fudged my personality a little just to see what it was like ( they turned me away when I answered honestly) the guys on there are drippy scary feeling mounds of flesh. one of my most pathetic dating stories comes from Eharmony.. they are a waste of space. Match.com had some real people.. Yahoo is where I met my current bf of almost three years. Plentyoffish is a waste of space. pathetic losers there. If you're into the weird and kinky then okcupid is probably ok for you but it was rare to find anyone approaching normal there. ( not covered in piercings and tatts who wants to have a small commune of lovers in both sexes and maybe a few furries added in the mix for flavour) I was always able to slip my email address in my ads cleverly so I rarely paid for any of those sites.

[Colette]

Yes, girls that flirt constantly with everything that's male bring out the F in me.

I have a great appreciation for quiet girls that wait to be discovered by someone that can really handle them and their fiery intellect.

I'm basically looking for a male version of what you describe, I think.

A mild extravert would be OK, but nothing more extreme than that. I've also more or less concluded (and note: this is just for me personally, I'm not speaking on behalf of any other INTJ woman), that it's unlikely my emotional needs would or could be met by a strong T type. Sensors are out (for reasons I've elaborated on other threads), so I guess that leaves me looking for an NF (and hopefully an INF).

Needle in a haystack, no doubt :)

[Motor Jax]

my SO is the extreme ESTP

it was more she ran into me... but i also had been eyeing her too for about 3 months and then when the time was right, i just conveniently put myself into her way...

[zibber]

Tried it once. I met a girl from Amsterdam on Myspace, we seemed to hit it off on MSN and made a half-date (not fully confirmed). Next day she put up a shitload of pictures that looked so different from the face I'd grown familiar with, I lost interest. I'm not shallow, but the whole "only reveal non-misleading pictures after having made a date" thing turned me off to this person.

I did hang out with some random American Myspace friends that came to Amsterdam on separate occasions, which was a blast.

[Colette]

my SO is the extreme ESTP

it was more she ran into me... but i also had been eyeing her too for about 3 months and then when the time was right, i just conveniently put myself into her way...

How does an extreme ESTP behave, and what is its natural habitat?

I'm imagining descriptors such as 'down to earth', 'practical', 'funny', 'adventure loving', 'party animal', 'likes good food and wine', 'bawdy jokes', 'enjoys sex'.

Hmm...I'm asking because I suspect many of the guys on the two sites I'm using are ESTP or something close to it.

[schwartzie]

By "PLAN" do you mean "Aw screw it, I'll just be a brilliant scientist/artist/engineer/inventor/CEO"?

well... that wouldn't hurt.... ;)

but no, I think we have to figure out how to improve the odds in a way that makes sense. People who sell for a living say you improve your odds by doing huge numbers of pitches. Bleah. Sounds awful. Maybe better is to either put ourselves in the places/activities/events where the potential compatibles might hang out, or set a lure for them. I don't see many better options.

I think the point I'm at is that most girls won't work for me, but I'm pulling for one that will. I might yet get my number called!

of course you might!





schwartzie added to this post, 38 minutes and 26 seconds later...

Emotionally damaged? Would you find that among extraverts as well,
I think a lot of smart, introverted rationalist kids, especially boys, get emotionally and physically abused beginning when they are young and never find their way back to good enough health to engage fully in an intimate adult relationship. I watched a beautiful introverted boy become the schoolyard victim at the neighborhood catholic school, beginning in first grade; his parents just didn't "get it", the school personnel were self-righteous @#$%s --pretty much all talk, and by middle school, he was closed and misshapen, a guy who had a lot of problems. Some woman, a couple decades down the road, would have to have extraordinary resources to ever be able to build an intimate life with him.

I've never seen an extroverted-acting kid be a playground victim. (but, i'll accept that maybe this is a chicken and egg thing, such that the extrovert is turned, by abuse, into someone who looks introverted.)

Also, "talk therapy" and, even just talk, the candid sharing of one's stories with "safe" others--at least in my experience--has therapeutic value. Unfortunately, it's harder for introverts than extroverts to reach for that; they're introverts....

So, yeah, my guess is that there are more damaged introverts than extroverts walking around.

or have they convinced you that you're defective?
mmmm... it's easy enough to feel that way. But, no I'm very much ok with being different. 's good.

[Colette]

Eh Schwartzie, getting a bit off topic here mate...take these 2 boys to a room and make them work for your affections ;)

[Noehelia]

no, don't use eharmony.. eharmony will only match you with F types. in fact, odds are as an intj they'll tell you to get lost, they don't take your type. no kidding. I fudged my personality a little just to see what it was like ( they turned me away when I answered honestly) the guys on there are drippy scary feeling mounds of flesh. one of my most pathetic dating stories comes from Eharmony.. they are a waste of space. Match.com had some real people.. Yahoo is where I met my current bf of almost three years. Plentyoffish is a waste of space. pathetic losers there. If you're into the weird and kinky then okcupid is probably ok for you but it was rare to find anyone approaching normal there. ( not covered in piercings and tatts who wants to have a small commune of lovers in both sexes and maybe a few furries added in the mix for flavour) I was always able to slip my email address in my ads cleverly so I rarely paid for any of those sites.

Some days ago in this thread i saw the link for another thread talking about eharmony and I read about your experience. I was very intrigued to see if I would have matches and what would they be (do not forget that I have scored only once as INFP in tests). I signed in eharmony, their report I think it's very accurate. By saying that I live in Europe I had 7 matches. One had a terrible profile but the rest I can say seemed so nice. If I was single I would be very tempted to communicate with them although I am not interesting in internet dating sites.(and none was from my country). When I set my settings that I live in US I had plenty of matches. I didn't read their profiles, I had a look on a couple but I didn't like their profiles.
Then I said to my INTJ boyfriend to sign also to see if he would been matched with me. He used the eharmony.co.uk because we wanted to see if they were any differences. He had no matches, but not only that, I think he received the message that said very politely that his type is not suitable for using eharmony. The system did not let him change any of his settings, everytime he logged on it just displayed that message and a link to his report and that's it.

I was curious why that happened. I compared our profiles. Maybe because in some measures he was more in the extreme, like he was described as "consistently taking care of yourself" while I got "usually taking care of yourself".

[totallyconfused]

I am regrettably evidence of internet dating gone good. I met my husband on an internet dating site in Oct 2000 (my best friend decided it was time I got out there, set up an account, profile, everything- and told me after he found my 'match' for me)...our son was born in Sept 2001 and was a month premature- so you do the math. My husband is an ISTJ (I think- it changes slightly every year or so)

[Colette]

I am regrettably evidence of internet dating gone good. I met my husband on an internet dating site in Oct 2000 (my best friend decided it was time I got out there, set up an account, profile, everything- and told me after he found my 'match' for me)...our son was born in Sept 2001 and was a month premature- so you do the math. My husband is an ISTJ (I think- it changes slightly every year or so)
TC

Did you accept the 'match' and look no further, or did you try other dates as well?

Do you think the two of you are well matched, or are there areas of conflict? I've dated three ISTJs and have had conflict with all of them due to concrete thinking, lack of spontaneity/creativity, and fussiness and perfectionism on their part. I'm sure they could tell a story about my flaws too :) What's your experience been so far?

[zibber]

I am regrettably evidence of internet dating gone good. I met my husband on an internet dating site in Oct 2000 (my best friend decided it was time I got out there, set up an account, profile, everything- and told me after he found my 'match' for me)...our son was born in Sept 2001 and was a month premature- so you do the math. My husband is an ISTJ (I think- it changes slightly every year or so)
TC

Why "regrettably"? Seems to conflict with "good".

[totallyconfused]

'Regrettably' was meant tongue in cheek.

As for did I accept the match...we just instantly clicked. I felt no need to 'check out any more possibilities'. (I had done some checking before him) The main sources of irritation on my side are: he is terrible at giving specific information- particularly on things I find important and he doesn't. He does not grasp that omitting one or a few key words can completely alter the message. His attention to detail is awful. Sometimes he talks too much. He can be a little over the top- if one of the children expresses an interest in something, he overwhelms him/her. (When our youngest was 4 he said he liked model trains- next thing I know, I have a £500 Toys r Us bill for Thomas the Tank Engine equipment.) He thinks he is good at housework- I know better.

He would probably sum up what irritates him about me with this sentence, "I am sorry (pick a topic) wasn't specific or exact enough for you."

On a positive note, we are as close as two people can be regarding morality and ethics, attitudes towards parenting (discipline/standards/expectations), beliefs about committment and relationships, life objectives, politics, social issues, economics, sense of humour, cinema, most music,etc.

I feel it only fair to point out some differences. I have 5 years of university; he quit after 6 months and joined the army- he was in 10 years. I am 5 years older than him. I grew up a JAP in an upper middle class family that vacationed in the Hamptons. He grew up (until he was 9) in a council flat in Scotland with most of that time being in foster care. Oh, and I am female and he is male.;)

[OneHertz]

I tried eharmony a while ago. Spent a lot of time actually thinking and answering their little questions. They told me to go away and that I was not compatible with anyone haha. That was it.

[Tempyst]

I tried eharmony a while ago. Spent a lot of time actually thinking and answering their little questions. They told me to go away and that I was not compatible with anyone haha. That was it.

I had this same problem, actually.

Been considering it again as I suddenly received an influx of "hits" to my 3 year old, dormant account. Still not sure, though. They jacked the price up a bit beyond anything I consider "reasonable."

[Vastfnup]

I signed on to eharmony last night. I have 12 matches in a 120 mile search radius. As far as my INTJness goes, I am more weakly intuitive. The others are more defined. There may be more to eharmony than simply "INTJ rejection." Either that, or my sensing may be enough to make me more acceptable to eharmony.

I question their personality profile determination process. They said I am emotional. I would not classify myself as emotional. I took the personality defect test and I came up as "Robot." I also took the supervillain test and my best match was Mr.Freeze.

[ElstonGunn]

I question their personality profile determination process. They said I am emotional.

What's that all about? What kind of business goes around insulting its customers? ;)

[Noehelia]

My boyfriend also was characterized as emotional (and me as a middle situation). But it has to do with the questions. They are meant to measure something else but since INTJ's feel so absolute for their emotions (in the sense that they think that they do not have) I suspect that they check the answers in the edge of the range.

[Vastfnup]

I see what you are saying. I certainly have emotions. What I do not do is put them on display or act on them very often.

[Colette]

I see what you are saying. I certainly have emotions. What I do not do is put them on display or act on them very often.

Right. I actually believe that many INTJs feel emotion quite deeply, and often. What they don't do is express it to others, or allow it to influence their actions and decisionmaking as much as an F type. I was intrigued by your statement that you were labelled 'emotional' on one dating site. So was I, and on that site (which does auto matching and e-mails you with names of people to contact), I've been matched with a whole bunch of guys who really don't interest me.

[seoa]

Intuitively I suspect you're right, but I also wonder if posting my photo might attract lots of the wrong kinda person (the ESTP 'bloke' type). In real life it's often these extravert sensor types who tend to be attracted to my physical image, and then once they talk to me they aren't interested (and nor am I) :)
it's not shallow to allow looks to be a factor in finding a sexual (among other things) partner.... the photo gets them reading your profile... what you say can then eliminate the "wrong" types (if you're so sure that they're wrong :))

Well maybe I'm going to sound sexist now, but my gut feeling is that women are more likely to attract a shallow guy by posting photos, than men are, because I think men are generally more preoccupied by appearance (at least initially) than women. Feel free to shoot me down in flames men, if you think I'm wrong about this!
not sure you'll get valid answers, asking this question from "men" (indiscriminately)... you mostly find that people who haven't given internet dating much thought, are quite "principled" about the shallow-ness of photos, whereas those who've done it for a while are willing to honestly admit that it's a bigger factor than their political correctness thinks that it ought to be...!

This is actually becoming one of the more difficult issues for me with this process. I have a couple of factors concerning myself that may be quite off-putting to some people (others may not be bothered by them). Should I be honest and upfront about these, or wait till I meet someone to disclose these things? I'm really not sure about this one.
don't put them in the profile.... the profile is all about getting people's interest... the same as if you were at a party, you wouldn't put a sign around your neck saying "i have a 6th toe on my left foot"..... the people reviewing your profile are casual acquaintances & strangers, they don't deserve anything truly personal, just what you're willing to put on display to attract an initial conversation.... the party equivalent would be how you dress /do your hair /your posture /your shoes /the way you interact with millions or few....

having said that, there's a point in the 1:1 conversation (not the first email i would think!) where it's appropriate to mention some stuff... if you have one leg, for example, it would very wierd to turn up on the first date without having mentioned it.... but it's easy to get too personal online, too quickly... guard against unnecessary disclosures that wouldn't come that early IRL.... ultimately, you don't know that you can trust this other person until things have progressed to a certain level...

Okay, but what qualifies as a sign or a lack of a sign? Do you think you'd get the same kind of indication of interest from a stilted, nervous weenie that you'd get from Mr Personality?
it's pretty easy with online-dating interactions.... interest is "they contact me", rather than "they don't contact me" (you both know what you're there for, after all).... preferably with some signs of curiousity about me... frequency of communications & delay between my-message-their-response is also relevant... it's a hard one to judge, coz sometimes sending a response too quickly can be crowding & over-keen.... it's worth paying attention to the time *she* takes to respond... if you're replying in 2 mins, and she's taking 2 days, chances are that she's pulling back a bit... the thing to do is to match her delay-times at around 75% (if you're more keen) or about 150% (if you're less keen).... it's exactly the same concept as the body-language-mirroring thing.... if you don't mirror at all, the other person feels (subconciously) that you're incompatible... if you mirror, then you can usually (subtly) take control, move things to where you want them to be....

Pickiness might be a part of it, but I assure you that I can carry a torch with the best of 'em. Pursuit just doesn't go over with me.
crushing on someone is definitely not the same as really wanting to be with someone.... i've been known to have intense & long-lasting crushes, but when offered a chance to move it into real life, i'm completely uninterested... sometimes the crush is the point (not messy, no failure involved)... the point is, one day you'll find a girl who inspires you to movement.... or you won't.... but there's something deep in the heart of almost every girl (yes, obviously there are exceptions) that wants to be pursued... even if it's done in a logical way, so long as there's some determination there... think mr darcy (classic intj)... *sigh* :lovestruck:

[ElstonGunn]

the point is, one day you'll find a girl who inspires you to movement.... or you won't....

What if I'm waiting for someone to be inspired by me to the point that she moves? Or does that not work for people without ovaries?

[ScurvyRose]

I have quite a few wonderfull and satisfying relationships. Unfortunately they are all in my head!

[konec]

I've for sale on a website since march this year and have had a couple of girls react to my advertisement. Some wanted to have a test drive.

With one girl (she was My First Internetdate) it went surprisingly well. We went for a 14km hike. Probably not the best choice for a first date; what if you cant stand eachother and want to leave right away. But it was really fun, we've been walking for around 8 hours (we took a lot of breaks and we went the wrong way on one occasion). Then we went on a second date, a third and a fourth... and that was it. Not enough sparks to continue...

With the second girl I e-mailed for a couple of weeks before we decided to meet. We were going to meet at a bar on a monday, I gave her my phone number on thursday so we could decide on a time and exact location, because I went away for a weekend... and I didnt hear anything from her, not even on the day we were supposed to meet. Next day I got an email, saying her family has had an accident, so I replied understandingly off course... never heard from her again...

And then there's a third one, but she wasnt smart enough to realize I could not reply to her message, since I'm not a paying member...

So...not that much luck with it so far...and I'm starting to loose interest...

As for the questions:
* did you contact as many people as possible and get conversations going with a few people before meeting any, or did you concentrate on one or just a few?
Just one at a time. One is difficult enough.

* How revealing were you in your profile and messages, about yourself (including faults and major issues, etc)?
I've been really cryptic, ie i've not written a story which says I'm intelligent, funny, etc. But a story from which those things should be clear.

* How did you decide who were the right people to contact, and determine whether someone you're messaging is really worth pursuing, or whether they're interested?
1st girl contacted me and we went on to meeting in person pretty quickly.
2nd girl; we emailed for quite some time before agreeing to meet, but I just like to meet pretty fast. It's just more efficient.

* Did you include photos or not. If not, why not?
Yes, looks are in a way just as important as what people write. Looks can tell a lot about a person. And most girls write that they wont react to people who have no picture...so...

[seoa]

What if I'm waiting for someone to be inspired by me to the point that she moves? Or does that not work for people without ovaries?
yeah, pretty much.... i know that you don't want to believe this, but the vast majority of females conform to the "female" type, which over-rides MBTI... they have a deep desire to be wanted, to be pursued.... who knows if this is nature or nurture.... similar to MBTI, i don't think it really matters, since it just is...

there are some things in life that cannot be made "equal" between the sexes, however politically correct we want to be....

(as a general rule) men will always be physically stronger... which means male /female sporting competitions will continue to be separated.... women will always bear children, which means they will need different employment laws to men...

and, as a general rule, men will continue to seek adventure & adrenaline sports, where women are generally more concerned with comfort & safety...

and, again as a general rule, men will be inclined to pursue, while women want to be pursued...

obviously you can cite specific examples where woman A is stronger than man B, or woman X is more thrill-seeking than man Y.... but talking in generalities across populations, across tribes, across cultures, you'll see these kinds of patterns occuring....

don't deny reality just coz it's not what you want it to be.... you're cleverer than that :)

[Vastfnup]

So far, most of the matches seem O.K. A few were not to my liking due to stuff that they liked to do or wanted not fitting with what I would want to do or my spare time, etc... Six more matches came in today. Two closed communication because they said they were pursuing a another person. Two more rejected me because I did not have a photo posted. I got cracking and took some photos last night. I even made one my avatar here so you can all witness my stunning countenance :p

BTW Scurvy, having a great relationship in your head may be satisfying. Is a steady stream of imagined relationships satisfying enough to fulfill the desire for a real relationship? Perhaps that is why a number of INTJs state the don't want or need to be in a relationship. I felt that way for a long time. Can anything in real life compare with the crap I can think up? I imagine so. As strange as my mind may get, I have encountered some things in real life that I cannot see anyone dreaming up on their own.

[ScurvyRose]

So far, most of the matches seem O.K. A few were not to my liking due to stuff that they liked to do or wanted not fitting with what I would want to do or my spare time, etc... Six more matches came in today. Two closed communication because they said they were pursuing a another person. Two more rejected me because I did not have a photo posted. I got cracking and took some photos last night. I even made one my avatar here so you can all witness my stunning countenance :p

BTW Scurvy, having a great relationship in your head may be satisfying. Is a steady stream of imagined relationships satisfying enough to fulfill the desire for a real relationship? Perhaps that is why a number of INTJs state the don't want or need to be in a relationship. I felt that way for a long time. Can anything in real life compare with the crap I can think up? I imagine so. As strange as my mind may get, I have encountered some things in real life that I cannot see anyone dreaming up on their own.


Oh no! The ones in my head are just interum distractions while I keep open to possibilities. And by the way, can you blame them for shutting you down for no picture? When I was trying online dating if there was no pic, you got no response. I even put it in my profile, although not many looked like their picture anyways.

[curiousjane]

Obvious words of advice about photos: post several, don't post with ex's cut out, show your humorous side, show your good side, show a head-to-toe RECENT shot, don't show any pictures over 2 years old, be honest.

If somebody still contacts you, or responds to your contact, they're okay with your physical shape/size/characteristics/features/hotness/average-ness/whatever-ness.

And that's a GOOD thing.

[schwartzie]

urk! I want to be devil's advocate of sorts.

I agree that physical appearance can be important. Even very important, sometimes.

But.

The things that are baseline, can't get past and must be present, for me, involve only the mind, such as humor, smartness (intellectual, emotional, social) compassion, the ability to play, self-respect, and so on. Next cut goes to geographic proximity, age, physical health and appearance, social circumstances, and so on. And my range of tolerance for the stuff that I can't live without is pretty narrow; for the second group, the range of what's OK, is much broader.
Part of my partner-seeking snobbery is, I suppose, rooted in efficiency: I don't want to spend time winnowing out the people for whom physical appearance is in the first set, while things I have there are missing. It's about shared values, I guess. So, I'm skeptical of advice to post pictures. It means the wheat and chaff all roll in together. Yes, as seoa states, that maybe can be sorted out later. But, hmmm....still I'm doubtful that it's all that easy to do.
And, true, it's not as creepy as being screened by, say, how much tv one watches. Blek. We don't even go there.

pssh (!) -We need our own NT Yenta, one that at least asks the right questions.

[ScurvyRose]

Looks can only get you in the door. There has to be something deeper than appearances.

I have a distaste for the guys that look like they work out a great deal. To my experience you can have about 3 preliminary conversations that are new, then they just repeat them over and over and over. Also they live at the gym, I have only gone 5 times in my life and it was for the tanning!

If we could wear the same clothes, that is bad too. I don't want someone who's arms are smaller than mine or that I could wear his pants - too many issues there.

Average build, some level of intelligence, the ability to communicate effectivly and not be so damn sensitive. I hate it when guys cry! Also a solid personal ability to stand on his own, take care of his own life.

OK somehow I started ranting. My most humble appologies.

[ElstonGunn]

don't deny reality just coz it's not what you want it to be.... you're cleverer than that :)

I'll do that when women agree to do likewise. If you want to talk to people who live in fantasy worlds, ask women about their conceptions of romance.

[Vastfnup]

I think you may be jumping to conclusions about people that dedicate a significant amount of time to exercise. Not all of us are limited to three conversations. If pressed, I can talk about four or even five things before I have to repeat myself.

I put in 4-5 hours a week in at the gym. I don't do it for appearance nearly as much as I do to develop strength. I set some personal goals for myself some time ago and I refuse to give up these goals while I am still young enough to accomplish them. (See thats one thing!)

Let's see.... I can talk about Star Wars, Star Trek, WoW, Warhammer, a number of FPS games. (Thats two - a compilation of geek stuff.)

I can talk about issues regarding many popular sports. (Thats three!)

I can talk about science and egg head stuff. There are some cool shows I have seen on the History and Discovery channels. (Thats four!)

I can talk about beer! I love beer! (Holy crap! Five!)

What's that? Something a woman might want to discuss with me? .......
.
.
.
Well....
.
.
um...
.
.
.
Nice weather we are having!

[ScurvyRose]

OK, do you know what a hammer is? Do you know what is 16" on center?

[Vastfnup]

Hammer: aka "Ford Wrench" this is a device used for fixing cars. By fixing I mean taking out your frustration on.

16 inches on center is precisely the distance from the mouth of the bottle to my pie hole when doing 12 ounce curls with proper form.

I was exaggerating for effect. Though in practice coming up with conversation topics with a woman isn't that difficult. I do have a much easier time talking with men because there tends to be a much greater overlap of common interests. And alas, they are not in my dating pool.

[ScurvyRose]

That got a chuckle! You could switch sides, it looks like there are more options there for you!

[NephilimAzrael]

I'm getting even more interest since I put up that zombie-impersonation pic for some reason, any comments?

[ScurvyRose]

It shows you have the potential to be a great listener!

[NephilimAzrael]

And like brains to boot!

[Henry]

I'm getting even more interest since I put up that zombie-impersonation pic for some reason, any comments?

I got a ton of hits one time when I put the ugliest picture I could find up as my photo.

Its exotic, unusual. When sifting through a sea of what most women would consider very poor-OK candidates, anything that stands out is going to get a reaction.

[konec]

With the second girl I e-mailed for a couple of weeks before we decided to meet. We were going to meet at a bar on a monday, I gave her my phone number on thursday so we could decide on a time and exact location, because I went away for a weekend... and I didnt hear anything from her, not even on the day we were supposed to meet. Next day I got an email, saying her family has had an accident, so I replied understandingly off course... never heard from her again...


What a coincedence... I was just browsing some profiles and she made a new profile (her old one disappeared shortly after the last time I heard from her) :laugh:

[ScurvyRose]

The very first time I tried Match the first contact I received was from a 70 something year old man. I was 30. Just creepy.

[127001]

I'll do that when women agree to do likewise. If you want to talk to people who live in fantasy worlds, ask women about their conceptions of romance.

Don't know about anyone else, but I heard a loud "ZING" after this one.

This got a good chuckle.

[NephilimAzrael]

Nightmare of obscurity (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[Exponential]

well, you asked for actual experiences...

This is it: Facts don't work unless you find someone extremely similar to yourself.

(This applies mostly people who significantly deviate from the median population).

Crafting an elegant and seductive profile that lures and entices the reader gives you the pick of the bunch... everyone else lists facts, I am this, I am that... your profile needs to describe their fantasy and appeal to the women you want to seduce... you choose which of them to take ;)

This is an exert from one revision of my profile, describing my ideal mate...

On the surface you might sometimes appear outgoing with a natural passion for life yet you have a quieter and deeper side that you usually keep to yourself. You are someone who really likes people, you are kind and compassionate and believe in helping other people and doing the right thing. You are open minded and well read. You are extremely willing to explore new things, explore new ideas, and totally excited by the prospect of us exploring new places together. You can't help being a little bit different and original, deep down this is one of your strongest points even though sometimes you only feel comfortable revealing your unique individuality to those who are closest to you.

Results? Let's just say, chick porn for the win :)

(my profile is constructed with the intention of appealing to xNFP-type women).


(just wanted to clarify.. key facts about me and the core message are all still there, just in a fluid or story style of writing that is easier for the reader to connect with on an emotional level, and doesn't sound like the 100 other profiles they read that day - thanks)

[Colette]

well, you asked for actual experiences...

This is it: Facts don't work unless you find someone extremely similar to yourself.

(This applies mostly people who significantly deviate from the median population).

Crafting an elegant and seductive profile that lures and entices the reader gives you the pick of the bunch... everyone else lists facts, I am this, I am that... your profile needs to describe their fantasy and appeal to the women you want to seduce... you choose which of them to take ;)

This is an exert from one revision of my profile, describing my ideal mate...



Results? Let's just say, chick porn for the win :)

(my profile is constructed with the intention of appealing to xNFP-type women).

Wow, I like that. Very creative. Definitely not targeted to the INTJ woman though ;)

In my profile I have constructed my ideal guy, but have also said that I definitely do not want sporty or extravert types. That instantly eliminates about 75% of the men on all the sites I'm on :)

[tp6626]

In my profile I have constructed my ideal guy

Hey, what ever happened to actively avoiding having a list of 'requirements'? You gave me a bit of a dressing down about that.

[44sunsets]

Someone pointed out on another thread that if you are an intj interested in intjs, you are only about 1-2 percent of the population, so, right from the start, you are lookin' for one person in a hundred.


In my experience, the amount of INTJs in the population (especially male INTJs) is rather underreported. I think the actual figure is probably more like 4% of the population is INTJ.

If any women are looking for INTJ men, they can be found by the bucketload in Computer Science fields: web and software developers, sysadmins, database admins etc. Can you say "Linux geeks"? I studied CS at university and I know way, way too many INTJ men. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

For INFJ men and women (particularly women), look in libraries. Bookworms through and through. That's where I've worked for most of my adult life. Haven't met my match yet though.

urk! I want to be devil's advocate of sorts.

I agree that physical appearance can be important. Even very important, sometimes.

But.

The things that are baseline, can't get past and must be present, for me, involve only the mind, such as humor, smartness (intellectual, emotional, social) compassion, the ability to play, self-respect, and so on.

For most women, a great personality in a man is much more important than high physical attractiveness. The reverse generally applies for men -- physical attractiveness in a woman comes first, personality second.

So for women in the Internet dating arena, it's much more important to get a good looking photo up in order to get responses from men. Men should focus more on making themselves stand out from the rest of the crowd by being creative and original.

This is a universal difference between the genders. Now, I'm sure someone is going to come complaining that this isn't true etc. :p

I got a ton of hits one time when I put the ugliest picture I could find up as my photo.

Its exotic, unusual. When sifting through a sea of what most women would consider very poor-OK candidates, anything that stands out is going to get a reaction.

Bingo!

[tp6626]

In my experience, the amount of INTJs in the population (especially male INTJs) is rather underreported. I think the actual figure is probably more like 4% of the population is INTJ.
This is terrible reasoning for an INTJ. In statistical terminology, you have basically said "In my sample, INTJ's are more numerous than in the reported figures calculated for the whole population. Therefore it is probable that they have underestimated their figures".

I am sure that their data collection and analysis methods are far more sound than your 'in my experience' ones, and so I would give more weight to their 1% estimate than to your 4% estimate.

If any women are looking for INTJ men, they can be found by the bucketload in Computer Science fields: web and software developers, sysadmins, database admins etc. Can you say "Linux geeks"? I studied CS at university and I know way, way too many INTJ men. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Of course there are going to be more INTJ's in CS schools - this would be a biased sample, and would give skewed results towards INTJ's.

For most women, a great personality in a man is much more important than high physical attractiveness. The reverse generally applies for men -- physical attractiveness in a woman comes first, personality second.

So for women in the Internet dating arena, it's much more important to get a good looking photo up in order to get responses from men. Men should focus more on making themselves stand out from the rest of the crowd by being creative and original.
This is quite a generalisation to make with no evidence or reasoning, and then you go on to say that you've had no luck so far. Why then would anyone be inclined to take this advice?

[NephilimAzrael]

If any women are looking for INTJ men, they can be found by the bucketload in Computer Science fields: web and software developers, sysadmins, database admins etc. Can you say "Linux geeks"? I studied CS at university and I know way, way too many INTJ men. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
- Don't confuse INTJs with INTPs, your additional percentages may comprise of a collection of both, but as tp6626 stated, you 'experience' does not compete with the meta-analysis performed by the socionic/psychological community over decades on the numerous personality indices.

For INFJ men and women (particularly women), look in libraries. Bookworms through and through. That's where I've worked for most of my adult life. Haven't met my match yet though.
-Not a hope am I believing this entirely, I lived with an INTJ father for nearly two decades. The similar characteristics between him and other INFJs is that although knowledge is great, the introspection and feeling requires a field beyond mere books and computers. The type is not called "The Counsellor" for nothing.

For most women, a great personality in a man is much more important than high physical attractiveness. The reverse generally applies for men -- physical attractiveness in a woman comes first, personality second.
- please do not generalize, introverts who use the Internet for meeting persons in the brief times they have outside of their consuming occupations consider the requirements that are appealing to them. There are many occasions in my old days that I would take such a comment seriously but not in a long time.

This is a universal difference between the genders. Now, I'm sure someone is going to come complaining that this isn't true etc. :p

-Oh I agree, it is biological. But beyond that, you are assuming difference on gender stereotypes and social constructions. Unless you hope to ellaborate as to how you came to these findings. (don't forget the graphs and pie-charts) :laugh:

[ScurvyRose]

Well, it poses an interesting scenario. I really do not think I will meet someone at the bar. Dating at work is not really an option, and there is only so many times I can ask my friends to act as my pimps! So, internet - here I am!

[Vastfnup]

I was almost ready to give eharmony some money last night so I could have the privilege of seeing some photos and actually *gasp* attempt communication with the opposite sex. After seeing the default monthly fee of $60 and the supposed "discount" fees, I logged on to Match and set up an account there. Match is almost half as much as eharmony. With the amount of money eharmony charges, I am beginning to doubt that many of the matches I get on eharmony are actually paying members that I can communicate with. What is the point of paying to be able to see pictures of, and sending messages to, matches that are probably not paying. Has anyone ever experienced this problem with eharmony?

I am planning on getting on Yahoo very soon. I need more , better pictures of myself.

[ScurvyRose]

Hell no! I won't pay! I prefer to see what my matches are before paying. If there are 3 (ahem - eharmony) within my region, why would I pay to see their pictures! And Match still has the same people from 2005!

[Vastfnup]

Let me guess, their pictures are from 2001....

[schwartzie]

[Originally Posted by 44sunsets when he was in a good mood (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)] : For most women, a great personality in a man is much more important than high physical attractiveness. The reverse generally applies for men -- physical attractiveness in a woman comes first, personality second.

So for women in the Internet dating arena, it's much more important to get a good looking photo up in order to get responses from men. Men should focus more on making themselves stand out from the rest of the crowd by being creative and original.

Sorry Sunset, that we are resisting your argument so much. You do make a valid point.

I agree that, generally, men and women look for different physical and emotional attributes in their partners. We have evolutionary psychology to thank for that, in part. I think your observation about broad gender differences supports rather than weakens the validity of my concern.

[aside: just this afternoon I began A. Miller and S. Kanzawa, why beautiful people have more daughters (penguin 2007).]

My concern had to do with the wisdom of posting pictures. It is my assumption that if I did post a picture, and if I was a reasonably attractive female, then I would get responses from a jillion unsuitable males who responded because they liked the picture, and whatever came in it...well .. whatever. And that makes me think, blek, sorting out the unsuitables is going to be unpleasant. I don't want that.

Moreover, I (and surely others of us here in intjland) are not average, and live at least two or three standard deviations from the norm. I can't imagine that I would ever be attracted to a man whose values were such that a prospective partner's physical appearance was more important than what lived in her head. He would have to be intellectually and emotionally "average" to endure such an insubstantial relationship. And I don't think he would find intj nerd girls even tolerable, let alone appealing or amusing.

[ScurvyRose]

Let me guess, their pictures are from 2001....

Those are the recent ones!

[Wufnu]

I always look at the pictures first :(

I've gotten alot of messages but nobody I was really enthusiastic about. Generally, I give everyone an equal shot unless their appearance repulses me. It makes me a monster but I do not like obese women. I'm aware that I am, myself, but my disdain for hypocrisy isn't enough to make me go out with someone like that. On the other hand, chubby girls are hot as hell. I suppose there's a fine line there, somewhere. I also have this thing about missing or sideways crooked teeth.

Out of the 15 or so women I've had conversations with, out of which 4 people I went on dates with, some of them were very attractive but I just had no interest in them. I'm not sure what it was. It sort of felt as if they had no passion about anything and were content with working, coming home, watching tv, maybe having a beer, and going to bed. When I would ask them what they were passionate about they either didn't have an answer or they said their children. Almost none of them had a passion for learning. When I would look into their eyes I saw no energy. When someone is really passionate about something, and you get them to start talking about it, their entire face lights up and you can almost drown from that energy like a fire hose. I like that.

I think that's why I'm still talking to this one lady, when I can remember to turn my instant messenger on. We're almost complete opposites. I'm an overweight and hairy man and she models for magazines. Everything I liked she didn't and everything she liked I didn't. For example, she has her own business in home decoration and styling. Fashion and style are probably the things I care about least on earth. The technical things I am most passionate about she didn't get at all. I asked her about music! I love classic rock, blues, and classical music but hate rap. She adored fity cent or something like that. I can't sing to save my life but I can play a couple instruments; she can't play anything, but she can sing. On the other hand, it's still fun to talk with her about the things she's passionate about most and since we're complete opposites of each other we ALWAYS have something to talk about.

[Kemmler]

Hmm, I created a profile on okcupid.com for the quizzez everyone links here, and then I noticed it was a dating site, but my profile isn't very well done, I'm more likely to scare women away haha xD

[ScurvyRose]

well, you asked for actual experiences...

This is it: Facts don't work unless you find someone extremely similar to yourself.

(This applies mostly people who significantly deviate from the median population).

Crafting an elegant and seductive profile that lures and entices the reader gives you the pick of the bunch... everyone else lists facts, I am this, I am that... your profile needs to describe their fantasy and appeal to the women you want to seduce... you choose which of them to take ;)

This is an exert from one revision of my profile, describing my ideal mate...



Results? Let's just say, chick porn for the win :)

(my profile is constructed with the intention of appealing to xNFP-type women).


(just wanted to clarify.. key facts about me and the core message are all still there, just in a fluid or story style of writing that is easier for the reader to connect with on an emotional level, and doesn't sound like the 100 other profiles they read that day - thanks)

OK, so the girls that are in porn flocked to you, or you were left with videos to date?

[seoa]

This is an exert from one revision of my profile, describing my ideal mate...

>> On the surface you might sometimes appear outgoing with a
>> natural passion for life yet you have a quieter and deeper side
>> that you usually keep to yourself. You are someone who really
>> likes people, you are kind and compassionate and believe in
>> helping other people and doing the right thing. You are open
>> minded and well read. You are extremely willing to explore new
>> things, explore new ideas, and totally excited by the prospect
>> of us exploring new places together. You can't help being a
>> little bit different and original, deep down this is one of your
>> strongest points even though sometimes you only feel
>> comfortable revealing your unique individuality to those who
>> are closest to you.

Results? Let's just say, chick porn for the win :)

(my profile is constructed with the intention of appealing to xNFP-type women).

OK, so the girls that are in porn flocked to you, or you were left with videos to date?

exponential is right... it reads as eerily insightful into who i am (enfp female) and pushes all the right buttons.... this would definitely hook me in if i saw it on a profile...

now all i need is the equivalent version for INTJ males.... how about starting with: "you are comfortable being seen as a robot...."

doesn't have quite the same ring to it, somehow.....

[tp6626]

Seoa, as I can see it, all you have to do is read up on as many INTJ type descriptions as you can, and pick the attributes you're most after. Note down a few idiosyncrasies too, and then weave a bit of an ad together based on these. Run it by us here first and I'm sure someone will point out anything that doesn't sit well.

That appears to be all exponential has done, and I can believe how that would be an extremely effective way of appealing to the target audience!

(Might actually nab that idea myself!).





tp6626 added to this post, 3 minutes and 43 seconds later...

Oh and the "You are comfortable being seen as a robot" doesn't appeal to me. I'd reword it "Some people often perceive you as a robot, but there is more than one side to you, that only very close people get to experience..."

That kind of thing. I don't think anyone (not even an INTJ) revels in being a robot!

[Exponential]

I'll explain some of the psychology behind it...

The objective is the appeal to the target person's idealized self image, allow them to project their fantasy onto it, and put them into a positive emotional state while reading your profile.

If you don't already know, this is what a lot of the Myers-Briggs personality profiles do, and it's why you hear people saying "oh my god, I found out my type and it described me so well", it's because we identified with it. We agreed with it. Then we sought out more knowledge that re-confirmed our new beliefs.

Confirmation Bias (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) and The Forer Effect (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) (kind of) are two of the factors at play here.

For all N types, I strongly believe successful online dating is primarily about EMOTIONAL CONNECTION (yes, even INTJ's).

You want to be able to identify with the person you are writing to, even if it's as simple as "we have stuff in common", and that is how people build bonds together. People like people who are like themselves, or who they can identify with in some way... you see it from a very young age, in high school, people of similar beliefs and social status hang around together, because this is where they are most accepted. Everyone wants to feel accepted.

Have you ever read a profile where you are saying to yourself "yes, me too, yes, that's me, yes!" all the way through, and at the end you re-read it again, then hurriedly fire off a carefully composed email?

That is the response I try to elicit.

When the reader feels like they have an emotional connection with the profile they have just read they are much more likely to "pull the trigger" and write to you.



edit: From a Male perspective, it still remains our job to write to women first, but some women do write/flirt/wink first, and a good profile will allow you to catch those that do. It will also improve the response rate of the women you write to.

[Noehelia]

Exponential, I understand what you are trying to accomplish (let the other person feel connected to the description) however if I read in a profile something like that it would put me off.
You see, a description from the MBTI does not want something for you, it's job is to describe you. However if I read in someone's profile "you are this...this...and this..." I would feel he has already decided how exactly someone else wants him to be, that he is too much controlling and I would feel pressure from that. I would prefer something like "I would like a girl that is....in order to share this....". In this situation you feel that the person knows what qualities he likes but he is not obsessed with them.
My point is that when you read someone's profile even when you read the section that describes how someone else he would like to be, you receive info about him too.

[ScurvyRose]

I will not respond to a wink, or a friend request on a dating site. If you want me to respond have a picture and send an e-mail!

[Exponential]

Noehelia, I understand your perspective, you are looking at this from your own lens.. I guessed this idea might get some criticism from someone.

You see, a description from the MBTI does not want something for you, it's job is to describe you.
Exactly. Your dating profile is to describe you too, and to describe who you are hoping to meet. Many dating sites have a section just for you to write about who you are hoping to meet, so they get it as well ;)

However if I read in someone's profile "you are this...this...and this..." I would feel he has already decided how exactly someone else wants him to be, that he is too much controlling and I would feel pressure from that. I would prefer something like "I would like a girl that is....in order to share this...."

not in the slightest, the subtext of that section of my profile is, "I'm hoping to talk to people like X,Y and Z". Before I started this idea, I used to have a much more common "these are all the things I like, write to me if we have something in common" type entry, the same thing everyone else had. What I have now is absolutely no different than saying "sporty extrovert types please contact me" or writing "please contact me if you like topic C, I really like that too", my way is just more expanded to help create a connection with someone.

Oh, and the difference between I vs. You is a minor one, for that section I used you because the rest of my profile contained a lot of I's :)

Something else to consider: I think much of your objection stems from the same type of thing as people saying "I would never let marketing influence my decision" or "I would never rush out and buy some chocolate because some advert on TV told me to". In reality when we consciously consider our understanding of product marketing, we would all like to believe we can make our own decision's and not be influenced by external sources, but life does not actually work that way. People buy kit-kats, coca-cola and countless other products because of it. Spend billions of dollars a year because of it.

To really understand this try and look at it from the point of what people actually do, not what people say they want to do.

A dating profile is just your own type of personal marketing. You put up good photos, write some positive stuff about yourself. Everyone does it!

Think about your own dating profile, do you mention who you would like to meet, or do you have some idea of who you would ideally like to talk to? Then do you get contact from people who are a poor match? So then you go back and refine your profile a bit, to try and appeal more to the type of men you want to meet? Well, then you did exactly the same revision process I did. End of story :)

[Noehelia]

Oh, no, my objection was not for writing the description of the type of girl that you would like to meet. It's the tone you use. And the same goes for marketing techniques, if they are too pushy they will annoy me. I would prefer to see the same things that you wrote starting "I would like..." and then proceed with third person "she would be...".
Ofc as you said these are my lens. I am sure that there would be people that they like it that way, but i don't, I just wanted to show you another perspective.

[ElstonGunn]

A dating profile is just your own type of personal marketing. You put up good photos, write some positive stuff about yourself.

So you're saying that dating profiles are inherently dishonest, or at least misleading, because they don't include exhaustive lists of their subjects' faults? And you're also saying that a subjective description is a much shallower thing to base a decision on than a photograph? And that none of this really matters because certain things, for whatever reasons and regardless of how "logical" or "right" they seem to be, work better than others? Or am I misunderstanding the implications here?

[Exponential]

..the same goes for marketing techniques, if they are too pushy they will annoy me. I would prefer to see the same things that you wrote starting "I would like..." and then proceed with third person "she would be...".
Ofc as you said these are my lens. I am sure that there would be people that they like it that way, but i don't, I just wanted to show you another perspective.
interesting... I do see your point about the use of "You" appearing pushy, although I think it is the best way to talk very directly to the person given the medium. I like the "she would be" 3rd person idea... but it might require some adjustment of the technique. Actually, I've just had a *fantastic* idea with this... ohh! :)

"Imagine you are standing looking at a man and a woman in the distance, they are walking along hand in hand, smiling and laughing without a care in the world. As he leads her by the hand and they start walking towards you, getting closer and closer, you start to notice details about them. He is like XYZ (describe me), she is ABC (describe ideal mate), as they pass you by, they smile to you and you wish that it was you, and you could find someone like that. Suddenly, you realise you have been watching your oen future from afar. Those two people? they were us..."

...hmm... not quite there yet, it needs some work to perfect the idea... but with a bit of fantasy padding/reworking that could turn out really really well... great! thanks!!


>> A dating profile is just your own type of personal marketing. You put up good photos, write some positive stuff about yourself.

So you're saying that dating profiles are inherently dishonest, or at least misleading, because they don't include exhaustive lists of their subjects' faults?

You're attempting to put forwards an invalid idea and make it appear as if it were from me ("so your saying...") as a debating strategy, nice try but no dice, friend ;)

I personally do not see the association between what you quoted of mine, and being misleading or dishonest. I certainly did not intend to imply that, respectfully I am sorry you appear to have drawn that association.

Product, business, even people marketing is about promoting the best parts of that product/business/person/service and allowing the consumer to weigh up their options, consider all the choices available, maybe try some out, before making their final decision. That does not in any way mean the marketing communication is dishonest :)

[ScurvyRose]

OK, so if I wrote the following I wouldn't get the results I wanted?

Woman who is set in her ways, is always right, does not need to be rescued and in the process of an underground movement to take over her realm in the world. Seeks masculine looking male, at least 5"9", 34" waist who will be happy to be at my beck and call. Boat, carpentry skills and a truck are a plus.

[Exponential]

OK, so if I wrote the following I wouldn't get the results I wanted?

Woman who is set in her ways, is always right, does not need to be rescued and in the process of an underground movement to take over her realm in the world. Seeks masculine looking male, at least 5"9", 34" waist who will be happy to be at my beck and call. Boat, carpentry skills and a truck are a plus.

I understand the premise of your argument :)

I like that actually, short, sweet, to the point, by excluding a lot of information about yourself, you manage to avoid the "facts dilemma". Some of the sites i'm on, people write massive long essays, list ton's of books they read, etc.

My guess is that profile would appeal to a well-balanced and older xSTP male, but maybe that's a personal sterotype. Try it and find out :) If it works great, if not, revise it.

[Colette]

Exponential, I understand what you are trying to accomplish (let the other person feel connected to the description) however if I read in a profile something like that it would put me off.
You see, a description from the MBTI does not want something for you, it's job is to describe you. However if I read in someone's profile "you are this...this...and this..." I would feel he has already decided how exactly someone else wants him to be, that he is too much controlling and I would feel pressure from that. I would prefer something like "I would like a girl that is....in order to share this....". In this situation you feel that the person knows what qualities he likes but he is not obsessed with them.
My point is that when you read someone's profile even when you read the section that describes how someone else he would like to be, you receive info about him too.

I agree. So far I've been automatically avoiding guys who have a precise list of specifications they want, or things they definitely do not want - I am more attracted to the profiles that demonstrate an open-minded approach, because I believe these guys are more likely to view a potential mate in a holistic sense rather than as a set of 'qualities' and 'shortcomings'.

I am also tending to avoid profiles where the guy specifies preferred body type, or ethnicity.

[Noehelia]

"Imagine you are standing looking at a man and a woman in the distance, they are walking along hand in hand, smiling and laughing without a care in the world. As he leads her by the hand and they start walking towards you, getting closer and closer, you start to notice details about them. He is like XYZ (describe me), she is ABC (describe ideal mate), as they pass you by, they smile to you and you wish that it was you, and you could find someone like that. Suddenly, you realise you have been watching your oen future from afar. Those two people? they were us..."

Actually, you are doing it again. You are telling someone how he should think and feel. At least this is how I am perceiving it. I prefer that someone shares his dream and see by myself if it matches mine.

[ScurvyRose]

Actually, you are doing it again. You are telling someone how he should think and feel. At least this is how I am perceiving it. I prefer that someone shares his dream and see by myself if it matches mine.

That could be their dream. They are looking for someone who would be just as effected by that paragraph as they felt about it. I would venture that you are not a match.





ScurvyRose added to this post, 109 minutes and 13 seconds later...

OK, so I am on this dating site, and I receive e-mail alerts to when I am contacted.

I received a notification from:

Golden Balls

Now I have to ask, what would your first reaction/impression be???

[schwartzie]

Now I have to ask, what would your first reaction/impression be???
*delete*
Is another SF

[tp6626]

Whoa what did you do exponential? :)

All you're trying to do is offer some advice or a perspective, and its being poo-pooed by at least 3 other posters.

Bear in mind, he was outlining his strategy so far for attracting ENFP's, and saying how it had worked well. Seoa even agreed that it would 'push' her buttons, and she's ENFP (or 'target market').

I don't see what reason you have to appear so objectionable to his advice. He wasn't saying it was what everyone ought to do, and he's politely responded to questions with well reasoned arguments etc, and there's nothing to indicate closed-mindedness at all.

[ElstonGunn]

You're attempting to put forwards an invalid idea and make it appear as if it were from me ("so your saying...") as a debating strategy, nice try but no dice, friend ;)

That's not really what I intended. It's just what came to my mind after reading what you said. On that note, I shouldn't have said that it was what you were saying. It was what I was thinking.

Still, when you're talking about marketing something, whether it's a product or yourself, how often do you consciously and willfully hold back on the less than great aspects of it? If I write a dating profile, I should probably focus on how I'm a considerate and intelligent guy who's looking for some kind of a commitment, but should I also mention that I can be unintentionally insensitive and boring?

If I shouldn't mention my negatives, what's the justification for that? I'm aware of them, or at least some of them, so that doesn't work as an excuse. Is it because I think people will exaggerate them because they think that I'm understating them? I'm not saying that it's bad to leave out or minimize the negatives, I'm just wondering if there's a reason for it aside from "well, it works better than putting them in there."

[curiousjane]

I received a notification from:

Golden Balls

DELETE!

[NotStyro]

Interesting discussions going on here regarding honesty vs. positive trait emphasis. As I am just now trying to get into internet dating, I'll throw my hat into the ring for emphasizing ones positive traits and letting any negative traits show during later conversations.

Here are two examples of what I understand could be used for introduction/profile views. Which do you think should be used...?

"Honesty is the key..."

Are you interested in spending time with a man that is emotionally distant, intellectually superior and dismisses your problems and struggles with an off-hand quote from from some long-forgotten-by-most-people cartoon show or novel? Maybe you have a desire for companionship from one that only requests your company for his sexual gratification and infrequent amusements? Do you long to spend countless hours alone only to have your guy come storming into the room complaining about how you are constantly disturbing his solitude and draining his emotional reserves? Or lastly, will you cherish and respect a man that coldly greets your family & long-time friends then pulls you aside to ask how you put up with a group that collectively might have an IQ of 70 and that he is tired now and must leave immediately?

...or...

“Honest, quiet listener...”

Are you interested in a man who is willing to listen to you, to share ideas and work out solutions? Someone that is willing to spend the time and effort to make a relationship work? Do you long for someone that will, over time, grow a deep and caring attachment with you? Are you willing to be as reasonable, direct and honest as he will be in discussions? And do you appreciate abstract, obscure and/or obtuse humor?

Now, I don't want to come off as a troll or presenting a strawman, but I think the second description would produce more favorable replies for long-term relationships than the first description (although the first may produce a good deal of "WTF?!" and "OMG UR CRAZY!!1!" type responses, I guess it depends on what you are after).

[Synamon]

The first one made me laugh so hard I couldn't even finish reading it. :laugh: GO WITH THE SECOND ONE!!!

aside: There is nothing wrong with presenting yourself in a positive light. Emphasizing your good traits is not lying. Do you put negative things on your work resume? Then don't do it on a dating profile either.

[Exponential]

Whoa what did you do exponential? :)

All you're trying to do is offer some advice or a perspective, and its being poo-pooed by at least 3 other posters.

er, i'm not sure :) but hey, it's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and if some people disagree with it, well, maybe they are just not the people I would be dating anyway, so no worries.

That's not really what I intended. It's just what came to my mind after reading what you said. On that note, I shouldn't have said that it was what you were saying. It was what I was thinking.
ok, cool, the phrasing just seemed like attributing an idea to me that I did not intend, that's all, certainly no offence intended on my part. Anyway, let's move onwards and upwards :)

Still, when you're talking about marketing something, whether it's a product or yourself, how often do you consciously and willfully hold back on the less than great aspects of it?
You do have an interesting point, that most successful marketing works by promoting the best points of a product unless it's a parody of some kind, and generally leaving out the less positive aspects.

If I write a dating profile, I should probably focus on how I'm a considerate and intelligent guy who's looking for some kind of a commitment, but should I also mention that I can be unintentionally insensitive and boring?
That would ultimately be your decision.

When reading profiles, you can usually interpret someone's less attractive qualities about how they describe themselves, for example, when someone says "life is only about fun, I like to go out and have a fun all the time", you can assume they are a very fun person to be around, but you can also deduce inverse traits from that, such as, they might not be very responsible, and might often get themselves into a pickle, or they might not have much interest in reading books.

If I shouldn't mention my negatives, what's the justification for that? I'm aware of them, or at least some of them, so that doesn't work as an excuse. Is it because I think people will exaggerate them because they think that I'm understating them? I'm not saying that it's bad to leave out or minimize the negatives, I'm just wondering if there's a reason for it aside from "well, it works better than putting them in there."

hmm...

A analogous situation, do you go into a job interview and tell the interviewer you can be stubborn and uncooperative at times?

As for justification? You are attempting to sell yourself. In the job market, and in the dating market, but personally I think it pretty much does come down to what you say, "well, it works better than putting them in there.".

[ElstonGunn]

As for justification? You are attempting to sell yourself. In the job market, and in the dating market, but personally I think it pretty much does come down to what you say, "well, it works better than putting them in there.".

Thank you. That's mostly what I was wondering about. Now it's onto trying to figure out why it is that an all-positive, if somewhat misrepresentative, description works better than an all-honest, if also somewhat negative one. ...Or at least why it is that I see those as the two options (but I don't know if I want to go there).

[Noehelia]

Whoa what did you do exponential? :)

All you're trying to do is offer some advice or a perspective, and its being poo-pooed by at least 3 other posters.

Bear in mind, he was outlining his strategy so far for attracting ENFP's, and saying how it had worked well. Seoa even agreed that it would 'push' her buttons, and she's ENFP (or 'target market').

I don't see what reason you have to appear so objectionable to his advice. He wasn't saying it was what everyone ought to do, and he's politely responded to questions with well reasoned arguments etc, and there's nothing to indicate closed-mindedness at all.

I did not see anyone poo-pooed his perspective and advice. And from the reactions of Expontential I did not see that he perceived it that way either.

Plus he outlined his strategy for attracting xNFP's not just ENFP's and I expressed how his strategy made me react as an INFP.

I do not want to criticize his advice, I would like to help him explore it, believe it or not. I am dying for these sort of things, share ideas, give maybe a useful insight, think it over myself. I have studied marketing and I am interested on the subject on every part of life. I wanted to trigger his thought whether his strategy has success either because of the description or because of the tone he used or both. I would like to understand it also.
Maybe other xNFP's don't mind his tone and they like it and I am the odd one out. Maybe they like the description and they do not notice the tone that much. Maybe if he twitched it a little bit he would have better results. The strategy has already results but as an INTJ I am sure he would like to hear opinions that he may use them to make the strategy even better and I believe that he wants to understand what exactly are the elements that make it successful and why. He has formulated some ideas of how and why but are they the right ones?
There is another thing I want to find out. He has shown a pattern of using a certain tone, he has justified it by taking as example general personality descriptions. I wanted to see where his reasons of strategy meet his own personality. You see I recognize that tone in INTJ's (at least when treating xNFP's).

[Colette]

As for justification? You are attempting to sell yourself. In the job market, and in the dating market, but personally I think it pretty much does come down to what you say, "well, it works better than putting them in there.".

How many interview panels have you been on? In my case, a few (from the employer side of the equation). When I interview a prospective employee I want to know about both their strengths and skills, and their potential areas of weakness (or it may simply be a development need).

So if you insist on continuing to apply the 'product' or 'employee' analogy to the process of finding a life partner, then let me respond with this. If I'm buying an expensive product that I want to last many years, and not to have to trade it in for a better or newer version, I want to know everything I can about the product - good and bad. I want to know where it could potentially fail, and if it does, what I might be able to do about that.

Carrying the analogy further, if a prospective internet date discloses some flaws or shortcomings to me, I may certainly choose not to date them (or them me), depending on how much of a 'dealbreaker' I see the flaw as being. Ultimately though I'm likely to respect that person more than the person who tries some ersatz strategy of selling themselves by using cliches and euphemisms to describe their character, in a way which convinces me that they lack any potential for creativity or authenticity.

Bottom line: real people aren't perfect, and I want to date an authentic person; not someone who packages themselves as a set of 'desirable qualities' without any real and genuine awareness of their own strengths and weaknesses as a human being.

[tp6626]

Real Sales Person: "Yeah, the cars a nice colour and has a full warranty up to 30,000 miles".

I'm sure is more likely to be heard than:

Ideal Sales Person: "Yeah the cars a common colour and has a full warranty up to 30,000 miles, but by 31,000 miles you'll start to see minor niggles here and there, and it sometimes won't start, and it'll be fairly high maintenance from there on".

Sure it might be nice to hear a few 'down sides' to start with, but I suspect that it would mean ruling out many possibles even before you've had chance to meet them face to face and experience their good traits first hand.

[Colette]

Sure it might be nice to hear a few 'down sides' to start with, but I suspect that it would mean ruling out many possibles even before you've had chance to meet them face to face and experience their good traits first hand.

I'd rather that (and be ruled out on that basis) than starting to date someone and finding out all their nasty little secrets after a few weeks when I've become emotionally (and possibly physically) involved.

There's a balance to be struck. I don't think e-dating profiles are the place to be admitting that you've struggled with a drug problem, have a string of old convictions, or unstable bipolar disorder, but an honest assessment of a few areas you need to work on, isn't going to deter an honest and genuine person who has the maturity and experience to understand that they aren't perfect, and can't reasonably expect perfection in others.

[Exponential]

How many interview panels have you been on? In my case, a few (from the employer side of the equation). When I interview a prospective employee I want to know about both their strengths and skills, and their potential areas of weakness (or it may simply be a development need).

So if you insist on continuing to apply the 'product' or 'employee' analogy to the process of finding a life partner, then let me respond with this. If I'm buying an expensive product that I want to last many years, and not to have to trade it in for a better or newer version, I want to know everything I can about the product - good and bad. I want to know where it could potentially fail, and if it does, what I might be able to do about that.

Actually, I totally agree with you, I would want to find out a persons shortcomings as well as their strengths when looking to make a "committed purchase" so to speak. BUT, I also accept there is a right time and a place for doing so.

In your employer panel example, the right place is in the interview, not on the resume.

In dating? The right place is the first and second date, not the profile.

:)

[Colette]

Actually, I totally agree with you, I would want to find out a persons shortcomings as well as their strengths when looking to make a "committed purchase" so to speak. BUT, I also accept there is a right time and a place for doing so.

In your employer panel example, the right place is in the interview, not on the resume.

In dating? The right place is the first and second date, not the profile.

:)

Well perhaps that's right. I suspect I am more rejection-averse than you though, so I always prefer it to happen at the earliest stage possible (if at all), and likewise if I'm doing the rejecting, it's easier at that initial stage before I've even met someone.

To put this in context a bit, my profile on these dating sites doesn't have a list of my own perceived flaws or anything like that, but it does have some elements of vital information that will immediately put some people off contacting me (and rightly so, since they wouldn't be the right match for me). This includes things such as my single parent status, and body type (i.e. although not fat, I am not conventionally slim and 'well toned' either).

When reading a guy's profile I will want to know things like whether or not he's employed, whether he has kids, what height he is, and whether he's a smoker/drinker. That's all relevant, and could be viewed as positive or negative depending on what you're looking for.

As far as personality traits go, as stated I wouldn't list these in a negative sense, but rather would make an effort not to actively mislead when writing the description of my general personality. For example I wouldn't describe myself as 'easygoing and fun loving' if what I am is a rather anxious type who likes to lead a fairly scheduled and predictable life. That's why I wonder, when I read endless male profiles describing themselves as "outgoing, witty, fun-loving and adventurous", how many of them actually are those things, and what proportion of such people could logically and reasonably inhabit a single dating site (given the huge diversity of personality traits you find across any cross-section of the singles population).

[Grace]

I was almost ready to give eharmony some money last night so I could have the privilege of seeing some photos and actually *gasp* attempt communication with the opposite sex. After seeing the default monthly fee of $60 and the supposed "discount" fees, I logged on to Match and set up an account there. Match is almost half as much as eharmony. With the amount of money eharmony charges, I am beginning to doubt that many of the matches I get on eharmony are actually paying members that I can communicate with. What is the point of paying to be able to see pictures of, and sending messages to, matches that are probably not paying. Has anyone ever experienced this problem with eharmony?

I am planning on getting on Yahoo very soon. I need more , better pictures of myself.
Try a little more of a smile, you know, teeth. ;)

[Exponential]

As far as personality traits go, as stated I wouldn't list these in a negative sense, but rather would make an effort not to actively mislead when writing the description of my general personality.
Yes, I totally agree.

That's why I wonder, when I read endless male profiles describing themselves as "outgoing, witty, fun-loving and adventurous", how many of them actually are those things, and what proportion of such people could logically and reasonably inhabit a single dating site (given the huge diversity of personality traits you find across any cross-section of the singles population).

This is a really interesting point, and I've noticed this as well.

Statistically Extroverts outnumber Introverts, and SP-Artisan's outnumber NT-Rational's in the general population, and lastly, because they contrast so much with how we would describe ourselves I wonder if it has more of an impact on our concious, does that make sense?

Secondly, you also have people writing about their idealised-self rather than their actual self.

Thirdly, you have people who all want to write list's of adjectives to describe themselves, however, everyone uses the same bloody adjectives so everyone sounds homogeneous after a while. Most people would agree they are "intelligent, open-minded, and like to laugh" right? These are universally and socially desirable traits.

Combine all that, (lots of extroverts, idealised self, lists of adjectives from limited vocabulary) you end up with a sea of people who all sound exactly alike.

[Colette]

Combine all that, (lots of extroverts, idealised self, lists of adjectives from limited vocabulary) you end up with a sea of people who all sound exactly alike.

My point exactly, so I do I sort out the purebred alpacas from the mangy goats? :)

[Exponential]

My point exactly, so I do I sort out the purebred alpacas from the mangy goats? :)

lol, eloquently phrased :)

edit: actually, i've wrote a lot recently... can someone else make a suggestion?

[schwartzie]

If you are html-istically talented, you could design Colette's Playground for them to visit, take a test or two.... do the mbti, other quizzy things. That would give you a meaningful way to sift out the e and sf types. Offer boatloads of honey (figure of speech) as the reward--to take the test ...
maybe other interactive parts to the site, so the player is rewarded along the way for his efforts. maybe the reward is humorous treats. Design it to gently discourage undesireables and greatly reward and encourage the amusing, freakishly persistent puzzle-seeking intj-ish ones.

hmm.. ok, that's actually not a bad idea. ... I may try that myself. If I do, I'll post the results.

[Udog]

My point exactly, so I do I sort out the purebred alpacas from the mangy goats? :)

Knowing the cliches is half the battle, as it allows you to see how they separate themselves from it. Consider the cliche the baseline.

What I look for is people who imply the cliche instead of directly stating it. A profile telling me a girl is funny means nothing... a profile that makes me laugh means everything. Instead of saying she likes to have fun, I like it when she states things she enjoys doing.

In other words, I look for substance. While I'm sure there are quality people that rely too much on the cliche, they have more to prove should i initiate contact with them.

[Vastfnup]

Try a little more of a smile, you know, teeth. ;)

I didn't use my avatar photo on the three dating sites I have put my profile on. The ones I have posted have me smiling (except one on eharmony.) I did post some full body shots. eharmony nixed one shot from behind. How am I supposed to show off my lats if they don't let me get a shot from behind? Jerks! That is one thing that irked by about Match. "Back" was not one of the choices for best body part.

I have done some reading on eharmony, Yahoo, and Match. It seems eharmony is riddled with dead accounts. Both require the sender and addressee to be paying members in order to communicate. On top of that Match has less than 10% of the membership paying. So I got an idea....

Would it make a lot more sense to start up a Myspace or Facebook account and plant that name in my text sections? That way anyone doing a search will hit one of those sites provided that handle has enough web presence. I know it would make me look like a cheapskate, but if the women have to pay too I am saving them money as well. I could also bury the handle in such a way that it would require some riddle solving skill (intelligence - smarts - savvy - unstupidness) to find that site. By doing so, it will also reduce the chance that an admin will catch on.

I think I will try Okcupid as well. Who wants normal anyway?

[Colette]

If you are html-istically talented, you could design Colette's Playground for them to visit, take a test or two.... do the mbti, other quizzy things. That would give you a meaningful way to sift out the e and sf types. Offer boatloads of honey (figure of speech) as the reward--to take the test ...
maybe other interactive parts to the site, so the player is rewarded along the way for his efforts. maybe the reward is humorous treats. Design it to gently discourage undesireables and greatly reward and encourage the amusing, freakishly persistent puzzle-seeking intj-ish ones.

hmm.. ok, that's actually not a bad idea. ... I may try that myself. If I do, I'll post the results.

Good plan. Some links to riddle sites? If you can solve these, I'll talk to ya? :)

Actually there's one guy I've been chatting to a lot in messages (in fact pretty much the only consistent one at the moment). We're probably messaging on a daily basis, sometimes 2 or 3 messages a day. We might be getting close to the point of meeting, but I do want him to take the test...I already have my suspicions that he's ISTJ, but I guess I need to have these confirmed.

Which would be entirely consistent with my previous dating history, which is that I seem to attract ISTJs like bees to a honey pot ;)

[Colette]

Progress update:

#1: I asked him to do the test and it turns out he is an INTJ (yay!!) with a mild I preference, moderate N and T, and strong J. This is a very pleasing revelation :)

#2: We are meeting up for a coffee next Sunday morning (will be the first time meeting in person). I am nervous, excited, scared...and lots of other things too. Need to grasp the nettle though - any advice for this first meeting is most welcome.

[Vastfnup]

My best piece of dating advice is don't take dating advice from me. eharmony has a lot of advice. Most of it is common sense stuff. That site might cover some detail that you may have overlooked.

[schwartzie]

Mmmm ... an intj ...lucky you!

Think about how to lower your anxiety as much as possible by tinkering with the situation. If the weather and circumstances allow it, you could suggest getting the coffee to go and take a walk. It will allow you two introverts a little less direct face-to-face, and the mild physicality takes a little of the edge off. Plus you have a great reason to be dressed more casually, which lowers the pressure. Make it a safe route from which you can exit easily, if necessary, and that has a place or two to stop and hang if you want.

The color quiz (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) can be grist for an interesting conversation.

[Lucid]

Progress update:

#1: I asked him to do the test and it turns out he is an INTJ (yay!!) with a mild I preference, moderate N and T, and strong J. This is a very pleasing revelation :)

#2: We are meeting up for a coffee next Sunday morning (will be the first time meeting in person). I am nervous, excited, scared...and lots of other things too. Need to grasp the nettle though - any advice for this first meeting is most welcome.

Wow, good luck!

I have occasionally met people from dating sites in person. I've never had much success at finding someone I was attracted to though, so it may not be a great idea to take my advice, but I'd treat it as any other blind date. Try to go somewhere that you will feel comfortable, not just a public place (in case he's a serial killer or something) but a place that is familiar to you and where you can relax and be yourself.

Let us know how it goes!

[Wufnu]

Me neither. I haven't met any INTJ's yet :P From the forums on some of the websites, it would seem that there are alot of women looking for INTJs (just never where I am). Maybe they're just hidden away, somewhere, that I can't see.

[Vastfnup]

Well, I went and hid something searchable in my eharmony profile. We shall see how smart and determined (or actually active) my matches are. I also am going to go back and include a statement to let people know that my account isn't another dead link like so many on eharmony. (I have read in reviews that eharmony does a bad job of clearing out the dead wood.)

I am still pretty sure that eharmony has me mistyped. If no one figures out my riddle, or if someone at eharmony does figure it out and cans my account, I won't get pissed. By the way, in about a month, I have had just shy of 80 matches. Is that a lot or not much? I have a 120 mile range set and I live in a major metropolitan area.

[Colette]

Well I had my first date today with the guy I've been messaging with for a month or so now. It went really well (much better than I really expected), and I felt like we'd known each other much longer; such was the level of comfortableness and lack of awkwardness, and the natural sense of connection (he INTJ also).

However I didn't feel much immediate physical attraction. Do people think this kind of attraction can "grow"? In previous dates/relationships I've always fairly much experienced it instantly, so I'm a little unsure about this situation.

[Skatt]

I have an account on a couple dating sites. I haven't managed to attract any females that have intrigued me enough to really talk to though.

[ElstonGunn]

However I didn't feel much immediate physical attraction. Do people think this kind of attraction can "grow"? In previous dates/relationships I've always fairly much experienced it instantly, so I'm a little unsure about this situation.

How did those dates and relationships work out for you? It might be interesting from a theoretical standpoint to see how you respond to extended contact with someone who didn't attract you at first. Or it might be unethical to lead someone on if you don't expect or intend to have him around for a while. I don't know.

[Silence]

I'd like to be a buttinsky at this point, and offer some safety advice. If I don't say something, it's going to bug me until I do.

For those people taking advantage of internet dating, please, please, for the love of little green apples (or whatever your favorite fruit is), take precautions. Internet predation is rampant, and it's not only reserved for young kids.

Anybody can lie on their application. The same follows for texting/emailing. If/when you do decide to call each other, don't use your landline. In fact, this is what I'd recommend:

1) Always use a throw-away email address. yahoo, hotmail, gmail and so on. Don't use your name or any identifier such as your birth date/year, or your alma mater and the like. Also, don't re-use a sign-in name or nickname for dating sites. If you're EinsteinBaby on a yahoo group, don't use that name for a dating site. You can be tracked, if you've picked up a stalker. Stalkers are as prevalent as woodticks in a field, so protect yourself.

2) Never give your home address. Never give your birthdate. In fact, I'd refrain from giving them your last name until you've had a chance to speak with them on the phone. Which leads me to...

3) Never give your landline number. Never give your home/isp email address. I wouldn't give them your regular cell number, either. Were I you, I would spend $15 on one of those throw-away phones (Tracfone) and a phone card, and I would use that exclusively as the "potential-date" phone. Incidentally, if you activate those online, you do not need to put in your actual information (that would defeat the purpose of the "date phone").

4) Do not give them your last name. Not until you've actually met them and get a feel for them. Use "Jones", "Brown", "Smith", whatever. That way they can't look you up in the phone book and find out personal information. Which leads me to...

5) The day you decide to meet, do so in a very public place. Use your mode of transporation there, and let them do likewise. It will be less awkward, should there be absolutely no chemistry, to drive yourself away than to have to take them home, or rely upon them for a ride. It will also give another layer of anonymity, so that you're not awakened by brand-new stalkers standing outside your home.

Is this paranoid? You bet it is. Have people managed to successfully meet their partners without this precaution? Yes.

Let me elucidate further:

How many of these dating websites do any sort of Criminal Checks on the people that sign up?
Zero.

How prevalent is Identity theft? How prevalent are stalking charges?

How many people are taken advantage of, through schemes involving "loans" or "borrowing" money for bail, etc?

It's easy to sit back and shake your head and say, "I'd just dump them if they did anything like that." That's awesome. But when you do start dating, the rush of excitement from the new situation, the new person, and the emotions that are brought to the forefront often preclude that of common sense. Hell, if I had my way, I'd make sure these companies did criminal checks on their participants. I bet there's a lot of small print that makes up a "hold harmless" clause in these dating sites. That leaves YOU to be responsible for yourself. Take some precautions and be careful. It's a dangerous world out there.

[Colette]

How did those dates and relationships work out for you? It might be interesting from a theoretical standpoint to see how you respond to extended contact with someone who didn't attract you at first. Or it might be unethical to lead someone on if you don't expect or intend to have him around for a while. I don't know.

Well I'm currently single, so I guess you could say the 'flash in a pan' relationship resulting from instant, 'narcotic' type attraction, wasn't capable of sustaining a lasting and happy relationship for me in any of my previous ones. So maybe I should be looking for a 'slow burn' type one now - I'm not sure. I certainly intend to give it some more time to see how I feel in a few weeks, after a few more dates.

We have enough compatibility and common interests, values, and all those other good things, that I think I'd be very silly to write it off at this early stage.

And it's not that I find him unattractive as such, it's just that I wasn't grabbed by any strong chemistry on this date, and I actually think it might partly be because he wasn't putting out those sort of vibes. Maybe he feels the same way - who knows, but he does want to see me again and seems very keen, so that kinda suggests to me that he did experience some attraction.

[energy]

What kind of woman needs the internet to get a guy anyway?

Single ones who don't want to be single! Everyone is online these days - why wouldn't we go there to meet them? Besides, meeting online is great for introverts. I've had some fun times, good relationships and long term friendships with guys I've met through various types of personal ads.

Browse the ads on the sites as much as you can for free and see what's out there - I call it Man Shopping. If you live in a less urban area, the 'meeting someone special' process will take longer. If you live in a small town, you'll likely run into people you know OR later on, run into people you've dated (awkward).

Pictures help, but only if they're good ones. You can often send 'winks' or something to people if you're interested and just don't know what you'd say in that first email. Play a little, be careful, and have fun exploring!

[Vastfnup]

And it's not that I find him unattractive as such, it's just that I wasn't grabbed by any strong chemistry on this date, and I actually think it might partly be because he wasn't putting out those sort of vibes. Maybe he feels the same way - who knows, but he does want to see me again and seems very keen, so that kinda suggests to me that he did experience some attraction.

Well he IS an INTJ. You should not be surprised if he suppresses outward displays of emotion.

[Colette]

Well he IS an INTJ. You should not be surprised if he suppresses outward displays of emotion.

Yeah that's what he said. You're not gonna believe my directness here. After the date he messaged me to say how much he'd enjoyed it, and I replied asking if he'd experienced any attraction. Hehe...how much more direct is it possible to be?

Anyway he said he definitely had, and that he thought that it would continue to develop as we got to know each other better.

I do love it when you can ask someone a direct question and get a straight answer...that's gotta be a plus :)

[Colette]

Progress update:

I've now dated 2 guys from the two sites I'm signed up on. Both are really nice. I'm not sure I'm attracted to guy #1, and am probably more interested in pursuing a friendship than anything else.

Met guy #2 last night for coffee, and we got on really well. Lots in common, and he's warm, charming and lighthearted (and very definitely an NT or NF type, which is great). I have an issue though, which is that he is pretty overweight. I find this slightly offputting, but at the same time I realize I'm being shallow, and not seeing past the externals.

Any ideas on how to deal with this issue? I think it will be a while before we would even attempt anything physical, but if/when the issue comes up, I'm not sure how I'd react or respond. In short, I'm not sure I can see past this.

[schwartzie]

Progress update:

I've now dated 2 guys from the two sites I'm signed up on. Both are really nice. I'm not sure I'm attracted to guy #1, and am probably more interested in pursuing a friendship than anything else.

Met guy #2 last night for coffee, and we got on really well. Lots in common, and he's warm, charming and lighthearted (and very definitely an NT or NF type, which is great). I have an issue though, which is that he is pretty overweight. I find this slightly offputting, but at the same time I realize I'm being shallow, and not seeing past the externals.

Any ideas on how to deal with this issue? I think it will be a while before we would even attempt anything physical, but if/when the issue comes up, I'm not sure how I'd react or respond. In short, I'm not sure I can see past this.

trust your feelings; be honest w yourself. It is not shallow to acknowledge that you are not attracted to someone who is overweight. One's libido wants what it wants....

If that means you want to back off now, do so. If you enjoy him well enough to see him again, do that, and see where it goes--you may have the same feelings down the road... or you might not.

Also, it's a two-person deal, so there may be surprises here. The easy part is that overweight-ness is easy to fix (compared to, say, stupidity, laziness, emotional rigidity, etc.) People have been known to rise to the bait.... for real! That could be beneficial for both of you.

[Fridays Child]

Met guy #2 last night for coffee, and we got on really well. Lots in common, and he's warm, charming and lighthearted (and very definitely an NT or NF type, which is great). I have an issue though, which is that he is pretty overweight. I find this slightly offputting, but at the same time I realize I'm being shallow, and not seeing past the externals.

Any ideas on how to deal with this issue? I think it will be a while before we would even attempt anything physical, but if/when the issue comes up, I'm not sure how I'd react or respond. In short, I'm not sure I can see past this.

Do the man a favour and walk away now. He, like you, deserves to be appreciated for himself by someone who can focus on his good qualities and accept the whole person.

Only you can judge whether this is likely to be a major issue for you; and, if it is, move on. He is likely to be someone else's dream come true. So, catch and release time.

[Colette]

Do the man a favour and walk away now. He, like you, deserves to be appreciated for himself by someone who can focus on his good qualities and accept the whole person.


I'm hoping that I can. I don't like the fact that it's an issue for me, and I see myself as shallow for thinking this way. I'm not ready to walk away just yet, but I certainly won't be leading him on until I am really sure one way or the other whether I can accept it.

[gadjitfreek]

The easy part is that overweight-ness is easy to fix

Really. I'd be interested in knowing how. I am quite overweight, and I exercise a LOT and watch what I eat...and nada! I can starve myself for a month and run a marathon and not drop an ounce. It doesn't help that I have a pituitary insufficiency, coupled with two families rife with fatness.

[ElstonGunn]

I don't like the fact that it's an issue for me, and I see myself as shallow for thinking this way.

I'd consider it shallowness, but I don't think being shallow makes you a bad person. It just makes you human, and humanity has its downsides. (I've got plenty of them myself, so I'm not trying to talk down to you or be rude or insulting or anything like that.)

But if you don't want it to be an issue, do you think you could force it to not be one? I do things like that sometimes, but I can be very bull-headed about things like that.

[notthedroid]

I don't like the fact that it's an issue for me, and I see myself as shallow for thinking this way. I'm not ready to walk away just yet, but I certainly won't be leading him on until I am really sure one way or the other whether I can accept it.

I've been there. It's rough. I am much more mentally than physically oriented, so I gave it a shot and for a time it was alright and not an issue. But when my mental attraction faltered, it all dropped like the proverbial stone. At the beginning of the relationship he mentioned he was trying to exercise and eat right, but then we'd go out to dinner and he would definitely *not* eat right and there is no way I am going to play food police for a grown adult. I went into the relationship hoping he would lose weight, but I realized it was pretty stupid of me to expect that.

Also, I think his weight contributed to some insecurity problems that I found repellent, and made it hard for him to deal with the breakup.

I feel bad for obese guys. Some people have obesity in the family and just can't lose weight. Maybe there are women out there who find them perfect as they are, but quite honestly, the chances of them finding one are very slim (pun not intended).

[ElstonGunn]

Maybe there are women out there who find them perfect as they are, but quite honestly, the chances of them finding one are very slim (pun not intended).

Well, I'm sure the supply of fat guys outweighs the demand (pun intended).

[Jakalwarrior]

I'm hoping that I can. I don't like the fact that it's an issue for me, and I see myself as shallow for thinking this way. I'm not ready to walk away just yet, but I certainly won't be leading him on until I am really sure one way or the other whether I can accept it.

Being picky about who you share your genes with isn't shallow, its programmed in. Besides that you would be doing him a dis-service Would you want to be with somone who didn't like you physically? wouldn't it make you horribly insecure?

[Colette]

I've been there. It's rough. I am much more mentally than physically oriented, so I gave it a shot and for a time it was alright and not an issue. But when my mental attraction faltered, it all dropped like the proverbial stone. At the beginning of the relationship he mentioned he was trying to exercise and eat right, but then we'd go out to dinner and he would definitely *not* eat right and there is no way I am going to play food police for a grown adult. I went into the relationship hoping he would lose weight, but I realized it was pretty stupid of me to expect that.

Yeah that's what I'm afraid of. He's mentioned that he wants to lose weight (and note that I did not raise the issue at all - he volunteered this), and he is intending to make some lifestyle changes (including where he's living) to make this happen. But food is such an addiction that I'm worried even with serious attempts to lose, he will fall back into old patterns, or alternatively that idea and weight will become such an issue that it will 'hijack' the relationship.

Also, I think his weight contributed to some insecurity problems that I found repellent, and made it hard for him to deal with the breakup.

I feel bad for obese guys. Some people have obesity in the family and just can't lose weight. Maybe there are women out there who find them perfect as they are, but quite honestly, the chances of them finding one are very slim (pun not intended).

Yes, I think there could be some insecurity in him around the way he looks - he doesn't seem overly confident (although not a shrinking violet either). But I think you're right, in that very overweight guys (and women) are used to a lot of rejection. They are hardwired to accept and deal with it, and I think this causes some issues in itself for a new relationship.

[notthedroid]

Yeah that's what I'm afraid of. He's mentioned that he wants to lose weight (and note that I did not raise the issue at all - he volunteered this), and he is intending to make some lifestyle changes (including where he's living) to make this happen. But food is such an addiction that I'm worried even with serious attempts to lose, he will fall back into old patterns, or alternatively that idea and weight will become such an issue that it will 'hijack' the relationship.

Food isn't like alcohol or drugs, either. Everyone has to eat. There is no classy way to question someone's eating habits or current eating choices (Did he order a grilled chicken breast or chicken alfredo? Why did he eat the whole thing instead of splitting it in half?), and if you aren't with him 24/7 you have no idea if he is exercising or not, or how he's eating when you're not there. It becomes a splinter under the skin.

Basically it's a tremendous handicap when it's tough enough to start a relationship under normal circumstances.

Yes, I think there could be some insecurity in him around the way he looks - he doesn't seem overly confident (although not a shrinking violet either). But I think you're right, in that very overweight guys (and women) are used to a lot of rejection. They are hardwired to accept and deal with it, and I think this causes some issues in itself for a new relationship.

The mental insecurity was way, way more unattractive to me than his physical shape. He presented himself as confident, but it was a shell. (Supposedly he tested as an INTJ.) I think he felt he was at an extreme disadvantage because of his appearance.

My sympathies to you. It is a hard decision to make. Nobody wants to be shallow and reject someone based on appearance alone. If he's really serious about losing the weight it could be very positive, but if you're heading into a potential relationship thinking, "He'll lose XX lbs (or XXX lbs) and this will be great.", it's probably going to fail. :-(

[schwartzie]

I am quite overweight, and I exercise a LOT and watch what I eat...and nada! I can starve myself for a month and run a marathon and not drop an ounce. It doesn't help that I have a pituitary insufficiency, coupled with two families rife with fatness.

ok. point taken. I apologize for my thoughtlessness. "Easy" was the wrong word choice.