Are you Patriotic?

[Fej]

Simple yes or no question. Name the country you were born in.


No, United States.

[Lights]

Yes. United States.

[ArchonAlarion]

No. United States.

[Reon]

No. United States

[redbaren]

No. United States

[Claptonian]

No. United States.

Patriotism makes no sense to me. As Bill Hicks said, "It's a round world."

[Brutananadilewski]

No. Canada.

Patriotism is merely another means for people to make in-group/out-group distinctions between one another over an arbitrary and meaningless boundary.

EDIT: I find this poll fitting considering that it's during the Olympic games. Cheering for one's country over another is completely lost on me; I don't understand the concept, which I why I guess I care about them at all.

[Phalanx]

Yes. United States. During school I was the only kid in the class to stand during the daily pledge of allegience. Not because I was brainwashed by a public school system, but because I believe deeply in the ideals that we were founded on and choose to support them. Of all nations on the Earth at this precise moment in time, we have the greatest capacity to do both good or evil. We may lose this position in the future when the natural tides of history smash away our sandcastle, but for the moment, no matter how many people may revere or look at us with disgust, we are shouldering great technological, economic, and military power and are morally obligated to find responsible uses for it. I believe that we can.

[Mozzes]

If we take patriotism to mean a dangerous cocktail of jingoism and chauvinism then definitely not. I've been known to shout from the rooftops criticism of American policies though I do have some sort of vague notion of love for my country and I would zealously put to the sword any invading enemy.

[AJB]

Yes - U.S.A.

[Tigress]

No
USA

"It's American to hate America."
Seriously, I find this a complicated issue. Given our freedom of speech and thought we are exposed to our country's strenghts and weaknesses. I'm generally proud of our human rights and technological prowess. I'm not proud of our messy political and court system.

[PHS Philip]

No. United States.

Arbitrary boundaries that have caused countless wars will never get my allegiance. The US has done its fair share of bad things, and even if it hadn't, it probably would eventually. A country is still a divisive, arbitrary unit regardless of what it was founded on/for. Ideals can have my allegiance, but symbols and divisions, never.

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren.” –Thomas Paine

[Tocsin]

No. United States.

I stand by principles, not principalities.

And the Untied States does not honestly represent the principles that I would stand for.

[Mechanical Messiah]

Hell no. U.S.

[stasis]

The strain of culture that I respect most is a broadly western phenomenon. It transcends the United States, Canada, the European Union, and to some extent Japan and Israel. I can't take tribal pride in an identity based upon it. Maybe that doesn't really answer the question, but whatever. I don't have a flag sticker on my car or get choked up at the national anthem if that's what you mean.

[SirJac]

Canada

I take pride in the people in my country, but I have no feelings for my country itself. The flag means nothing to me, the anthem means nothing to me. But I always like to hear about how Canadians are doing different things to make the world a better place.

[Shakyamuni]

No. Canada.

Patriotism is merely another means for people to make in-group/out-group distinctions between one another over an arbitrary and meaningless boundary.

EDIT: I find this poll fitting considering that it's during the Olympic games. Cheering for one's country over another is completely lost on me; I don't understand the concept, which I why I guess I care about them at all.

Hahahaha. That's so Canadian. I also said no, and am also from Canada!

[TheLastMohican]

Yes. United States.
I'm probably not as patriotic as a lot of Americans, but I voted that way in the poll because I do love my country, in that I want to live here much more than anywhere else. If that counts, I'm patriotic. I do not however love it just because I was born here, and I have a lot of improvements in mind that will probably never happen. In other words, I am not content, but I know I am as content as possible.

[NephilimAzrael]

No. Ireland/European Union.

[Seppuku Savant]

No. U.S., but I wouldn't live anywhere else. I enjoy the rights I have, but I'm not overly enthusiastic.

[Zedicus]

Yes, Canada.

I take Patriotism to mean I am proud of were I come from, which i am. I also think to be Patriotic means you want to make were you are from better, and I do. I almost voted no, beause I would never express it in all caps that way though lol.

[Karamazov]

Nah. U.S.

Not due to anything the Government has done, or the like, but I just never really felt a kinship towards any country that I've been to. Each has it's own pros and cons, it's just a matter of which ones you're willing to put up with.

[Motor Jax]

yes, US of A

i'm the liberal hippy who stands for free rights, man...

it would be much better if we can just peace out on mowee wowee and alcupulca gold, dude...


and i do choke up on Lee Greenwood's God Bless America

[acyckowski]

Absolutely, yes. US.

Try bitching about your government in Putin's Russia, see how that works out for you.

[ArchonAlarion]

Absolutely, yes. US.

Try bitching about your government in Putin's Russia, see how that works out for you.

Anymore patriots like you and we might as well be.

[Purple]

No-United States

[PHS Philip]

Absolutely, yes. US.

Try bitching about your government in Putin's Russia, see how that works out for you.

Try bitching about our government not so long ago. You might find that such people tended to encounter a man named McCarthy.

We've had sedition acts a few times, we had the alien and sedition acts together within the first decade or two of America, we've got the enemy combatants act, the military commissions act, we've got FISA giving telecom companies immunity from punishment for helping the NSA...

[Wuchak]

No. U.S.

[Jakalwarrior]

No - US

I don't "dislike" the country. It provides me with decent living conditions. I do dislike the leadership, dislike the bloated government, and dislike the popular culture.

[ElstonGunn]

Yet another US citizen and resident. I'm not sure how to answer the question. It depends on how I look at things. On a day to day basis, it's pretty nice here. I'd probably say the same basic thing if I lived in Edinburgh, Stuttgart, Florence, or something along those lines. If I lived in East Los Angeles, Sinaloa, or Kinsasha, my opinion would probably be different. Or I might be more adjusted or inured to life in one of those places and end up saying the same thing. My point is, I don't have much to compare things to, so on a relative level, all I can really say is, "It's alright."

On the other hand, I could say something about how the US has handed its left nut to the Saudis, its right nut to the Chinese, and its johnson to its Executive branch, which doesn't seem like a very comfortable position to be in if anyone starts pulling.

[zibber]

Netherlands.

Not in the slightest.

[Nexus]

I'm going to be trendy and say "No" for the usual shallow, unthoughtful reasons or lack of reason like a lot of the people. After all, who doesn't want to fit in, right?

Then I'm going to open my eyes, take my fingers out of my ears, be realistic and say that even considering its many glaring flaws, I'd still rather live in the United States right now than in most other places in the world. There is nothing wrong with having loyalty to your home country, even if you dislike the government. It only becomes a problem when it develops into nationalism and you start saying yours is the only country worth living in. Strangely enough people have considered allegiance to your government and allegiance to your country as being synonymous, and that just isn't the case. Every country has its problems and skeletons in its closet. When you stop looking at the world through the narrow-scope of the media and trendy opinion, everything falls into perspective and things aren't quite so black and white.

Patriotism: National loyalty.

[True Rune]

No. United States.
Am I proud to be white? Different issue there, eh? But that's how I see it.

[SmileyMan]

Semi-yes: Denmark/EU

I like both my country and the EU, but I wouldn't call myself a "patriot".

[TheLastMohican]

No. United States.
Am I proud to be white? Different issue there, eh? But that's how I see it.

This isn't about pride. Being "proud to be (insert nationality here)" is silly, because it means you are proud of something that you had no part in accomplishing (unless you managed to defect from Cuba, in which case you have every right to be proud of your achievement). You are right that in that case there is no meaningful difference between race and nationality, since you had no control over where, when and into what family you were born. Patriotism is about gratefulness (or, considering that you might have no one in mind to be grateful to, simply relief).

[Fej]

No. United States.
Am I proud to be white? Different issue there, eh? But that's how I see it.

This isn't about pride. Being "proud to be (insert nationality here)" is silly, because it means you are proud of something that you had no part in accomplishing (unless you managed to defect from Cuba, in which case you have every right to be proud of your achievement). You are right that in that case there is no meaningful difference between race and nationality, since you had no control over where, when and into what family you were born. Patriotism is about gratefulness (or, considering that you might have no one in mind to be grateful to, simply relief).

Exactly. Ishida is proud to be white. Being a certain color or ethnicity is also something that one has absolutely no part in accomplishing, one has no control over it. Unless you're Michael Jackson. lol

[Karamazov]

I'm going to be trendy and say "No" for the usual shallow, unthoughtful reasons or lack of reason like a lot of the people. After all, who doesn't want to fit in, right?

Trendy? I thought people's reasons for their answers are every bit as legitimate, and about as "unthoughtful" as yours. If you like the quality of life in your home country, good for you. If not, that's alright too. It's a matter of personal preference and not of any established and intrinsic worth.

[TheLastMohican]

Unless you're Michael Jackson. lol

Jackson's skin has been lightening gradually over his lifetime due to a certain disease, not his plastic surgeries.

[Nexus]

Trendy? I thought people's reasons for their answers are every bit as legitimate, and about as "unthoughtful" as yours. If you like the quality of life in your home country, good for you. If not, that's alright too. It's a matter of personal preference and not of any established and intrinsic worth.
To be clear, I was speaking generally in that post and not referring specifically to this thread alone. The same could be said of why a lot of people say they're patriotic. These are typically the "Like it or get out" crowds that think dissent is a bad idea. As for it being a matter of "intrinsic worth" as you put it, it's astonishing that even when I define patriotism, you still put words in my mouth. Patriotism speaks nothing of intrinsic worth. It's simply loyalty to one's country. Nothing more, and nothing less. Intrinsic worth comes into play when strong nationalism or ultra nationalism is involved, which is basically just chauvinism.

[BlackMita]

No; Canada.

[Karamazov]

A lot of the "No" answers in this thread simply say "No - USA" with the occasional single sentence justification or saying. That's not including the majority of the answers I hear when similar questions are being asked. To be clear, I was speaking generally in that post and not referring specifically to this thread alone. The same could be said of why a lot of people say they're patriotic. These are typically the "Like it or get out" crowd that thing dissent is a bad idea. As for it being a matter of "intrinsic worth" as you put it, it's astonishing that even when I define patriotism, you still put words in my mouth. Patriotism speaks nothing of intrinsic worth. It's simply loyalty to one's country. Nothing more, and nothing less. Intrinsic worth comes into play when strong nationalism or ultra nationalism is involved, which is basically just chauvinism.

My mistake then. I was merely clarifying that a majority of the answers don't posit that national loyalty is bad but simply point out that it's superfluous just the same. It just seemed to me that you were poo-pooing others responses as less than satisfactory. I was also speaking in terms of generalities when I mentioned intrinsic worth.

The Op itself stated that a yes or no answer would suffice in the first place, so there is no real obligation to explain your respective answer.

[Mozzes]

Are we speaking the same language here? I suspect there are individualized notions of patriotism floating around in this thread.

[Malotis]

I'm going to be trendy and say "No" for the usual shallow, unthoughtful reasons or lack of reason like a lot of the people. After all, who doesn't want to fit in, right?


Strange, this is the first time I've seen "fitting in" go hand in hand with "not being patriotic." The vast majority of the community I live in seems to express their patriotism in whatever way they can; bumper stickers, flags, blessing america before meals, proclaiming america as the greatest place on earth, etc.

No, U.S.

[ElstonGunn]

Strange, this is the first time I've seen "fitting in" go hand in hand with "not being patriotic."

That depends on where you go. The majority of people in the NBA are tall. The majority of pygmy Bushmen are short.

[PHS Philip]

Patriotism is about gratefulness (or, considering that you might have no one in mind to be grateful to, simply relief).

Wait, I think we need to define "patriotism," because that's definitely not the definition I was using when I answered.

[Karamazov]

Wait, I think we need to define "patriotism," because that's definitely not the definition I was using.

I think this is where our misunderstandings are derived from.

British historian, statesman, and diplomat (Ambassador to the US from 1907 to 1913) James Bryce: Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong.

George William Curtis: A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains and rivers and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.

Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

[TheLastMohican]

Wait, I think we need to define "patriotism," because that's definitely not the definition I was using when I answered.

I think a lot of people nowadays think of "nationalism" when they hear "patriotism." That's probably the fault of people (mostly Americans) who have notions of imperialistic nationalism while calling it patriotism.

I would define patriotism as the view that one's native country is better than other countries in a such a way that its preservation and success deserves special efforts by its citizens (beyond paying taxes and dying).

[Fej]

Jackson's skin has been lightening gradually over his lifetime due to a certain disease, not his plastic surgeries.

lmfao...I hope you said this jokingly.

[TheLastMohican]

lmfao...I hope you said this jokingly.

Ahem. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[Antares]

Not a chance. A country is a political division. It never made sense for me to like a country just because I happen to be born in it. I might love a place in my country, such as the great wall (don't ask me why. It just came to me), but never the political division.

Hong Kong, China

[searcher]

I think that I am prouder of NZ than I would be of, say, Aus or the US if I lived there because it is a small country that manages a lot by itself.

The olympics for example. Medals for NZ are to me a bigger deal as we have a total population less than that of Sydney and so, far far less sporting facilities and people to choose from - yet we still get medals - even if not so many.

Arrg. I'm not making a very good job of explaining this.

[Grizzly]

Britain: Yes
America:.........No

[JonD]

No. Canada.

Patriotism is merely another means for people to make in-group/out-group distinctions between one another over an arbitrary and meaningless boundary.

EDIT: I find this poll fitting considering that it's during the Olympic games. Cheering for one's country over another is completely lost on me; I don't understand the concept, which I why I guess I care about them at all.

Here, here.

Also, with amateur athletes who are bought by sponsorships by other nations, how does one's nation mean anything anyway? I live in Saskatchewan, and most the Saskatchewan Roughriders, as well as other CFL teams are from the States.

[ttt]

"No. Am I proud to be white? Different issue there, eh? But that's how I see it."

Claims:

"This isn't about pride. Being "proud to be (insert nationality here)" is silly, because it means you are proud of something that
you had no part in accomplishing (unless you managed to defect from Cuba, in which case you have every right to be proud of your achievement).
You are right that in that case there is no meaningful difference between race and nationality, since you had no control over where,
when and into what family you were born. Patriotism is about gratefulness (or, considering that you might have no one in mind to be grateful to, simply relief). "

"Exactly. Ishida is proud to be white. Being a certain color or ethnicity is also something that one has absolutely no part in accomplishing, one has no control over it."


Questions:

Are you saying; it is wrong to be proud of things which are out of your control?

What is your definition of the word "proud"?

[TheLastMohican]

What is your definition of the word "proud"?

I would define pride as a feeling of self-satisfaction arising from a (usually limited or specialized) sense of superiority.


Are you saying; it is wrong to be proud of things which are out of your control?


Not necessarily, since objective and correct observations of one's superiority in certain areas result in pride just as skewed ideas of self-importance do. If you found that you have an IQ of 150, or any other inherent skill that you value, being proud of it would be a natural result. It is a fundamental part of your identity (DNA). I think feeling a lot of pride over something you were born with is not admirable, since it trivializes justified pride over achievements born of effort and good character, but we all do it to some extent.

What I find especially strange, and silly, is being proud of one's nationality or race. First of all, it implies that a certain nationality or race is inherently better. Some argue that there are superior and inferior races. It is true that there are differences in the DNA, but I don't think there is any possible objective standard by which to judge what makes a race better or worse, so the distinction would be best left unmentioned. Trying to apply values to such variations is a hopelessly subjective venture, and invariably results in bigotry, with each race thinking that it is best. Globalization will result in rapidly increasing mixed-race populations anyway, rendering the debate moot as any lines are blurred. Pride over nationality is even more absurd, since it is by no means a part of one's identity. Would you be a worse person if you were born in Sudan? Only perhaps by nurture, and certainly not be nature. Muslim indocrination could turn you into a suicidal jihadist, but your DNA remains the same. Your self-worth should be determined by your character, not by the character of those around you, unless you allow yourself to be defined by your peers.

[phantasma]

This isn't a black or white issue. Patriotism is more of a spectrum than a yes or no question.

I'm from the US, and I'm patriotic when it comes to the human rights aspect, and everything else that stemmed from the constitution and the country's original organization. However, I am a lot less patriotic about my country's current state and mentality.

[PHS Philip]

This isn't a black or white issue. Patriotism is more of a spectrum than a yes or no question.

I'm from the US, and I'm patriotic when it comes to the human rights aspect, and everything else that stemmed from the constitution and the country's original organization. However, I am a lot less patriotic about my country's current state and mentality.

We've always had a human rights problem, honestly. It's been better than other countries sometimes, but worse sometimes too (we had slavery 50 years after Britain outlawed it, for instance).

[ttt]

TheLastMohicans definition of the word "proud":

"I would define pride as a feeling of self-satisfaction arising from a (usually limited or specialized) sense of superiority."

Result:

"What I find especially strange, and silly, is being proud of one's nationality or race.
First of all, it implies that a certain nationality or race is inherently better."


From WordNet (r) 2.0 :

"proud
adj 1: feeling self-respect or pleasure in something by which you
measure your self-worth; or being a reason for pride;
"proud parents"; "proud of his accomplishments"; "a
proud moment"; "proud to serve his country"; "a proud
name"; "proud princes""


From ttt:

Pride = Self-respect; Integrity


Question:

Are you saying; it is wrong to be proud of things which are out of your control?

Answer:

"Not necessarily, since objective and correct observations of one's superiority in certain areas result in pride just as skewed ideas of self-importance do.
If you found that you have an IQ of 150, or any other inherent skill that you value, being proud of it would be a natural result.
It is a fundamental part of your identity (DNA)."

Question:

Is it ok to be proud of your DNA?


Claim:

"I think feeling a lot of pride over something you were born with is not admirable,
since it trivializes justified pride over achievements born of effort and good character..."
"Your self-worth should be determined by your character,"

Question:

How is "feeling a lot of pride over something you were born with" trivializing "pride over achievements born of effort and good character"

Question:

How is "pride over achievements born of effort and good character" justified?

Question:

Is it bad to consider yourself supirior when you infact are?

Question:

How did you get your character


Claim:

"Some argue that there are superior and inferior races.
It is true that there are differences in the DNA,
but I don't think there is any possible objective standard by which to judge what makes a race better or worse,"

Question:

How can there ever be an objective standard to a subjective issue?


Claim:

"Trying to apply values to such variations is a hopelessly subjective venture,
and invariably results in bigotry,
with each race thinking that it is best."

Question:

What made you come to this conclusion?


Claim:

"Pride over nationality is even more absurd,
since it is by no means a part of one's identity."

Questions: Where do you draw the line? Is the body part of one's identity?


Question: "Would you be a worse person if you were born in Sudan?"

Answer: That depends on what you mean by "worse person".

[True Rune]

So there is a difference between "I'm proud to be white." and "I'm proud to be American." But I remain unpatriotic.

[TheLastMohican]

From WordNet (r) 2.0 :

"proud
adj 1: feeling self-respect or pleasure in something by which you
measure your self-worth; or being a reason for pride;
"proud parents"; "proud of his accomplishments"; "a
proud moment"; "proud to serve his country"; "a proud
name"; "proud princes""


From ttt:

Pride = Self-respect; Integrity

"Integrity" is straying rather far from the kind of pride in question. By that definition, being proud of one's nationality could arguably be a mere feeling of responsibility for one's fellow countrymen. I am referring to potentially boastful pride.


Is it ok to be proud of your DNA?


This would involve a personal moral judgement, one I am not qualified to define for you. It is more logical to be proud of your DNA than of your nationality, but it is still something you did not work for. Declaring yourself superior to others from birth is on occasion correct, but violates a sense of fairness, seeing that you would be openly putting others down for circumstances that were out of their control.


How is "feeling a lot of pride over something you were born with" trivializing "pride over achievements born of effort and good character"


By putting them on the same level. Greater admiration for accomplishments through effort than those inherited through genes or birthplace is fundamental to social motivation. Of course, this concept was largely absent in nobilities and higher social classes throughout history, and it still persists in the caste system.


How is "pride over achievements born of effort and good character" justified?


That's an odd approach. Is there any reason why such pride is wrong? Without it, what motivation would we have to achieve great things?


Is it bad to consider yourself supirior when you infact are?


No, but it is in poor taste to make a big deal of it. It is also dangerous to consider yourself wholly superior, because the odds are you are the worst judge of that.


How did you get your character


How do you define "character?" It can take many forms. Very basic personality traits are part of your DNA, and through your experiences you develop a unique worldview, often closely resembling that of your parents and peers. Higher functions of your attitude and behavior are mostly within your control to alter, meaning you are responsible for your own "character" at that level. I am referring to the latter in relation to effort and achievements.


How can there ever be an objective standard to a subjective issue?


It might be impossible. I already said that it was in this case.


What made you come to this conclusion?


History.

Where do you draw the line? Is the body part of one's identity?

Yes. You are basically your DNA, and that remains the same no matter where you are. Your personality is shaped by your experiences, but you will always have the same genetic basis and the ability to work on your personality flaws as necessary.

That depends on what you mean by "worse person".

What further definition can that phrase have? The idea is a subjective judgement in the first place, so really all you can rely on is your own instinct.

[phantasma]

We've always had a human rights problem, honestly. It's been better than other countries sometimes, but worse sometimes too (we had slavery 50 years after Britain outlawed it, for instance).

everyone has a human rights problem. Some have it more or less than others, and I think the US is doing a fairly good job at the moment all things considered. Though Britain outlawed slavery much earlier, there's other things that they didn't stop, like imperialism on a big scale.

[PHS Philip]

everyone has a human rights problem. Some have it more or less than others, and I think the US is doing a fairly good job at the moment all things considered. Though Britain outlawed slavery much earlier, there's other things that they didn't stop, like imperialism on a big scale.

Er, we annexed parts of Mexico, we annexed Hawaii...

And I disagree that we're doing a fairly good job at the moment. Torture, the elimination of habeas corpus, secret military commissions rather than a real court...all these things add up to total disregard for human rights.

[Tragic Hero]

No. Australia.

I am not patriotic to the point where I think that Australia is superior to all other countries. However, in reference to the olympics; if I do not have a vested interest in the event, I will probably go for the Australian.
For some events i will not, in particular, where Phelps was going for his eighthed gold, and australia was his nearest competitor, I was very much hoping Phelps would win.

All that being said, I do think that Australia is a good country to live in.

[VeridisQuo]

No. Canada

I do not celebrate Canada day neither that I celebrate National day (In Quebec). I don't understand why you can be proud of being part of a specific country. I can say Canada is a good place to live, but it all ends there. Patriotism and the concept of nation-state itself is just another way to divide people.

[Karamazov]

Er, we annexed parts of Mexico, we annexed Hawaii...

And I disagree that we're doing a fairly good job at the moment. Torture, the elimination of habeas corpus, secret military commissions rather than a real court...all these things add up to total disregard for human rights.

Actually, habeas corpus has been restored but other than that, I agree with your statement. For the most part, the quality of life here is pretty good, just like in Britain, Sweden or what have you. The only con, in my opinion, is that crime here is not like in any other developed country and guns proliferate on a larger scale here than any other as well. Not that guns themselves are bad, but still.

[ttt]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claim:

""Integrity" is straying rather far from the kind of pride in question."

Comment:

I was not aware of different kinds of pride.

Claim:

"By that definition (Pride = Integrity -ttt), being proud of one's nationality could
arguably be a mere feeling of responsibility for one's fellow countrymen."

Claim:

Provided the "mere feeling of responsibility for one's fellow countrymen" stems from
self-respect or pleasure in ones nationality by which one measure ones self-worth.

Claim:

"I am referring to potentially boastful pride."

Question:

Are you confusing pride with arrogance?

_____________________________________________

Question:

Is it ok to be proud of your DNA?

Answer:

"This (Okayness of DNA based pride -ttt) would involve a personal moral judgement,
one I am not qualified to define for you."

Question:

Why "personal" and "moral"?

Question:

Are you qualified to define "justified pride over achievements born of effort and good character"?

______________________________________

Claim:

"It is more logical to be proud of your DNA than of your nationality,
but it is still something you did not work for.
Declaring yourself superior to others from birth is on occasion correct,
but violates a sense of fairness,
seeing that you would be openly putting others down for circumstances that were out of their control."

Question:

Is the phrase "may the best man win" violating a sense of fairness?

Scenario:

A farmers sheep is under attack by hungry wolves.
Farmer shoots one of the wolves, the other wolves flee.

Claim:

The wolfs got put down "for circumstances that were out of their control" (human with gun).

Question:

Is it wrong if the farmer pats one of the surviving sheep and says:
"It's all right. You are with humans now. We got tools to defend ourselves from them pesky wolves"?

_____________________________________

Question:

How is "feeling a lot of pride over something you were born with" trivializing "
pride over achievements born of effort and good character"?

Answer:

"By putting them on the same level."

Claim:

You did not answer the question.

Questions:

Who is "putting them on the same level" and what is this "level".

______________________________________

Claim:

"Greater admiration for accomplishments through effort than those inherited through
genes or birthplace is fundamental to social motivation."

Question:

Why?

Question:

How is "pride over achievements born of effort and good character" justified?

Answer:

"That's an odd approach."

Claim:

It is your approach.

Claim:

You did not answer the question.

Question:

"Is there any reason why such pride is wrong?"

Answer:

Certainly.

Question:

"Without it ("pride over achievements born of effort and good character" -ttt),
what motivation would we have to achieve great things?"

Answer:

Money and pride over things wich are out of our control.

Question:

What motivation would we have to achieve pride over achievements born of effort and
good character if there was no pride to begin with?

Quote from the web:

"A people which takes no pride in the noble
achievements of remote ancestors will never achieve
anything worthy to be remembered with pride by
remote descendants." --Macaulay.

Question:

Is the quote from the web true or false?

Question:

Do you agree with the following two claims?

The following two claims:

The little college brat (with rich parents who gives him everything he wants or express interest in)
is allowed to feel pride over the achievements he made at the competitions his parents pushed him to enter.

The child growing up with a rock smoking alcoholic mother and no father who never got a chance to work hard
on any interest has nothing to be proud of since he never proved himself superior in any way involving hard work.

______________________________________

Question:

Is it bad to consider yourself supirior when you infact are?

Answer:

"No, but it is in poor taste to make a big deal of it."

Request:

Define "poor taste".

__________________________________________

Question:

How did you get your character?

Question:

"How do you define "character?" It can take many forms."

Answer:

I don't

Clarification:

I am interested in your form.

Answer:

"Very basic personality traits are part of your DNA,
and through your experiences you develop a unique worldview,
often closely resembling that of your parents and peers."

Question:

How could you have controled any of this?

Continuation of answer:

"Higher functions of your attitude and behavior are mostly within your control to alter,
meaning you are responsible for your own "character" at that level."

Question:

What is "higher functions of your attitude and behavior"?

Question:

How can you be "responsible for your own "character" if
the "higher functions of your attitude and behavior
are mostly (not fully -ttt) within your control to alter"?

__________________________________________________ _

Question:

How can there ever be an objective standard to a subjective issue?

Answer:

"It might be impossible."

Claim:

"I already said that it was (impossible -ttt) in this case."

Correction:

You said "I don't think there is any possible objective standard".

__________________________________________________ _____

Claim:

"Trying to apply values to such variations is a hopelessly subjective venture,
and invariably results in bigotry,
with each race thinking that it is best."

Question:

What made you come to this conclusion?

Answer:

"History."

Clarification:

I want your reason.

__________________________________________________ _________

Question:

Where do you draw the line? Is the body part of one's identity?

Answer:

"Yes. You are basically your DNA, and that remains the same no matter where you are.
Your personality is shaped by your experiences,
but you will always have the same genetic basis and
the ability to work on your personality flaws as necessary."

Question:

Is it ok to be proud of ones body?

Question:

Can a child choose its experiences?

Question:

Are you saying: All humans, regardless of DNA,
have the ability to work on their personality flaws as necessary?

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Question:

"Would you be a worse person if you were born in Sudan?"

Answer:

That depends on what you mean by "worse person".

Question:

"What further definition can that phrase have?"

Answer:

You tell me.

Scenario:

a: Can you recommend a good movie?

B. That depends on what you mean by "good movie".

a: What further definition can that phrase have?
The idea is a subjective judgement in the first place,
so really all you can rely on is your own instinct.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

[TheLastMohican]

ttt, before I reply again, please answer this: what is your goal in this discourse? Do you want to reach a conclusion, and if so, a conclusion concerning what issue?

Do you have any points to make, or will you continue to ask two questions for every sentence in each of my replies, exponentially increasing the lengths of the posts?

I think we could save a lot of time if you would just present your own point of view on whatever you are driving at.

[void]

Absolutely not : Italy.

George Carlin summed it up nicely. It doesn't make any sense to be proud of your country of birth. Why be proud of an accident? You were not given a choice. It makes a lot more sense to be proud of your accomplishments.

[ttt]

___________________________________

¤

Request:

"before I reply again, please answer this: what is your goal in this discourse?"

Answer:

My goal is to decide whether your claims are based on reason or dogma.

¤

Question:

"Do you want to reach a conclusion"?


Answer:

Yes.


Question:

"a conclusion concerning what issue?"


Answer:

All issues.

¤

Question:

"Do you have any points to make"


Answer:

No, but you obviously have.

¤

Question:

"will you continue to ask two questions for every sentence in each of my replies,
exponentially increasing the lengths of the posts?"


Answer:

That depends on you.

¤

Combo-claim:

"I think we could save a lot of time if you would just present your own point of view on whatever you are driving at."

Comment:

I am presenting questions.

Question:

Do you have a problem with questions?
____________________________________________

[TheLastMohican]

My goal is to decide whether your claims are based on reason or dogma.

On whose dogma could my opinions be based? They come from my own head, so it's my reasoning that forms them. Definitions tend not to be dogmatic issues anyway.

No, but you obviously have.

I have already presented my position. If you have no position of your own, why are we discussing this? Are you trying to determine your own position by examining mine?


That depends on you.


Please elaborate.

Do you have a problem with questions?


I have a problem with pointless questions. My views are not being enriched or otherwise affected by your questions, and I do not see anything that you have to gain by them either. I could go on indefinitely defining numerous words and terms, and then defining the words used to define those, but I see no value in it. If there something you want to debate, that's fine, but it appears it would be a long time before we ever advanced to that point, if ever.

[MrEPenguin]

No, my fellow Americans are godless violent sex obsessed retards who have no standards of decency or morality.

[PHS Philip]

No, my fellow Americans are godless violent sex obsessed retards who have no standards of decency or morality.

Proud heathen right here.

[aok]

No. United States. I think if this question was asked 7 years ago I might be in the minority.

[Little Bo Peep]

Russia/Canada
No, in fact I think I am more critical towards the country I live in. Not necessarily negative though. I feel that being critical comes from being invested as a citizen (member of the community) and wanting things to improve. Also, living in the country gives you a close-up view.

[zibber]

Jackson's skin has been lightening gradually over his lifetime due to a certain disease, not his plastic surgeries.

I know he made Thriller, but let's not get carried away :D

[TheLastMohican]

I know he made Thriller, but let's not get carried away :D

Is there any reason to doubt that he has the disease? I think it would be pretty strange for his surgeries to cause his skin to lighten.

[Karamazov]

Is there any reason to doubt that he has the disease? I think it would be pretty strange for his surgeries to cause his skin to lighten.

Well, this is Michael Jackson. I'm inclined to believe he genuinely has Vitiligo.

[ttt]

#########################


Question:

"On whose dogma could my opinions be based?"

Wild guess:

The democratic partys.

############

Claim:

"They ("my opinions" -ttt) come from my own head,
so it's my reasoning that forms them."


Comment:

I seriously doubt that.


Claim:

"Definitions tend not to be dogmatic issues anyway."


Comment:

Irrelevant.
I am talking about claims.

###########

Claim:

"I have already presented my position."


Comment:

I am not asking for your position.

###########

Hypothesis:

"you have no position of your own"


Question based on the above hypothesis:

"why are we discussing this (position -ttt)?"


Answer:

I do not know.


Question:

Have I claimed to be positionless?

###########

Question:

"Are you trying to determine your own position by examining mine?"


Answer:

No.

###########

Question:

"will you continue to ask two questions for every sentence in each of my replies,
exponentially increasing the lengths of the posts?"


Answer:

That depends on you.


Request:

"Please elaborate."


Elaboration:

Your posts tend to give rise to more questions than they answer.

###########

Question:

Do you have a problem with questions?


Answer:

"I have a problem with pointless questions."


From WordNet (r) 2.0 :

"pointless
adj
2: serving no useful purpose"


Question:

Is reason a useful purpose?

############

Hypothesis:

"there (is -ttt) something you want to debate"


Judgement:

"that's fine"


Comment:

I do not want to debate.
I want to reason.


Question:

Is that "fine"?


##############################

[MrEPenguin]

Proud heathen right here.

Well, shucks I bess be getting mah bible and an exorcist. We need to lay hands on you and release the demons that control you.... hehehe:mad:

[PHS Philip]

Well, shucks I bess be getting mah bible and an exorcist. We need to lay hands on you and release the demons that control you.... hehehe:mad:

My name is legion. ;)

[TheLastMohican]

My name is legion. ;)

...For we are many. *high-fives Philip*





TheLastMohican added to this post, 87 minutes and 9 seconds later...


Wild guess:

The democratic partys.

I'm not a Democrat. Furthermore, my opinion of pride for one's nationality has nothing to do with politics. I'm not sure how it could.



I seriously doubt that.


With the knowledge that I have not been indoctrinated by Ted Kennedy, where do you think my opinions came from if not from my reasoning?


Irrelevant.
I am talking about claims.


You label most of the sentences "claims" as if they are scientific hypotheses that can be backed by peer-reviewed studies. They are nothing of the sort. This is all about definitions and how reason dictates their uses. If you define the words differently, obviously you will have different views about the phrases we are discussing. Besides the dictionary, there is no evidence to be presented.


I do not know.


Well then, do you think there is a point to this discussion?


Have I claimed to be positionless?


No. You did say that you have no points to make. What is the difference?


Your posts tend to give rise to more questions than they answer.


Any post can raise more questions than it answers, but those questions are often frivolous.


Is reason a useful purpose?


Sometimes.


I do not want to debate.
I want to reason.


Do you mean you want to reason out your own opinions, or use your reasoning to convince me of something? If the latter, the reasoning is debate.


Is that "fine"?


It depends on your clarification. I do reserve the right to be selfish and impatient; I do not value debating definitions with you, and unless our discussion has a significant purpose, I do not want to take part in it. If my replies serve to multiply the number of questions in your subsequent replies, I will be spending an increasing amount of time to no end. If we can rapidly whittle this down to a point and find some conclusion, I might do so as an act of courtesy.

[MrEPenguin]

My name is legion. ;)

Got to start somewhere. :P

[ttt]

################################################## ######


Wild guess:

The democratic partys (Dogma -ttt).


Claim:

"I'm not a Democrat."


Question:

Have I ever claimed you were?


Claim:

"Furthermore, my opinion of pride for one's nationality has nothing to do with politics.
I'm not sure how it could."


Question:

Have I ever claimed it has?


########################################

Hypothesis:

"With the knowledge that I have not been indoctrinated by Ted Kennedy"


Question:

"where do you think my opinions came from if not from my reasoning?"


Answer:

School, tv, radio, www and newspapers.


###############################

Comment:

Irrelavant.
I am talking about claims.


Claim:

"You label most of the sentences "claims" as if they are scientific hypotheses that can be backed by peer-reviewed studies."


Comment:

No.
The labels are there to prevent misconceptions.
If you have a better label, you can tell me.
If you disagree with a label, you can tell me.


########################

Claim:

"This is all about definitions and how reason dictates their uses."


Comment:

No.


####################

Claim:

"If you define the words differently,
obviously you will have different views about the phrases we are discussing."


Comment:

Exactly.


################

Claim:

"Besides the dictionary, there is no evidence to be presented."


Comment:

Evidence is not necessary.


############

Answer:

I do not know.


Question:

"Well then, do you think there is a point to this discussion?"


Answer:

Not just one.
You have made several.


#########

Question:

Have I claimed to be positionless?


Answer:

"No. You did say that you have no points to make."


Question:

"What is the difference?"


Answer:

You have already made enough points.
I still have my positions.


#########

Elaboration:

Your posts tend to give rise to more questions than they answer.


Comment:

"Any post can raise more questions than it answers, but those questions are often frivolous."


Announcement:

I disagree.


#########

Question:

Is reason a useful purpose?


Answer:

"Sometimes."


Question:

When?


#########

Comment:

I do not want to debate.
I want to reason.


Question:

"Do you mean you want to reason out your own opinions,
or use your reasoning to convince me of something?"


Answer:

Neither.


Claim:

"If the latter, the reasoning is debate."


Comment:

Irrelavant.


#########

Question:

Is that "fine"?


Answer:

"It depends on your clarification."


Question:

What clarification?


########

Claim:

"I do reserve the right to be selfish and impatient"


Comment:

Up to you.


#######

Claim:

"I do not value debating definitions with you,"


Suggestion:

Stop debating.


#######

Claim:

"unless our discussion has a significant purpose, I do not want to take part in it."


Assumption:

Since "a significant purpose" is a subjective judgement in the first place,
really all I can rely on is my own instinct.


Claim:

Our discussion has a significant purpose.


########

Claim:

"If my replies serve to multiply the number of questions in your subsequent replies,
I will be spending an increasing amount of time to no end."


Announcement:

I do not follow.


###########

Suggestion:

"If we can rapidly whittle this down to a point and find some conclusion"


Reply:

You're on.


############################

[Indy]

No, the Netherlands.

Btw, when reading ttt's posts I'm reminded of why they probably commended Socrates to death.

[Mozzes]

No, the Netherlands.

Btw, when reading ttt's posts I'm reminded of why they probably commended Socrates to death.

I'm reminded of the immortal words of Socrates when he said, "I drank what?!"

[Ytterbium]

Sweden - Yes

European union - Noooo!

[ttt]

You found my weak spot.
You set a trap and I walked straight into it.
I got to tempted.
I could not resist when I saw the descriptions.
It was like an oasis in an endless desert.
But it was all just smoke and mirrors.
Arch Nemesis Devina... LEGION
Caught me fair and square.
I admit your superiority.
I shall take my leave.
I wish you no harm.

[Silence]

US. Absolutely.

I joined the military to serve my country. I was a servicemember that had the honor of representing my country overseas. Despite the embarrassment of the man that held the title of Commander-in-Chief, I did not waver because it was the ideals of America that counted. I served my country, not the government or the 'overlords' or whatever people suggest.

I am so very proud of my country. Together, we have much to offer, and much to learn.

[Aeroscoper]

U.S. YES a resounding YES. Why? I used to live in another country and can appreciate what this country is.

YES YES YES

[azelismia]

I don't think patriotism has to do with loving your country so much as being blind to it's flaws. it's more sticking by your govt and mindlessly doing what it says including things that go against your own personal moral code for the right of the many vs the right of the few.

I am not patriotic. But I do think we have it good in America. If I had a choice though, I'd move somewhere with more history in the ground though. I like ruins..
I am an American though.

[Silence]

I don't think patriotism has to do with loving your country so much as being blind to it's flaws. it's more sticking by your govt and mindlessly doing what it says including things that go against your own personal moral code for the right of the many vs the right of the few.

I am not patriotic. But I do think we have it good in America. If I had a choice though, I'd move somewhere with more history in the ground though. I like ruins..
I am an American though.

Really. So, you're equating patriotism with essentially being a sheep, then? That's mighty generous of you.

And exactly who are you, to be omniscient enough to tell when someone is 'going against their own personal moral code'?

Please, tell me more about my mindlessness, O Swami. /sarcasm.

[sMoKeY]

I do not like patriotism. It seems to almost always lead to racism and also sheep like mentality where a govenment can easily control its people because a government can use anything that goes against the patriotsm of the people to do anything they want. Patriotism (is)/(should be) a thing of the past we need people to think on a global scale any decision a major government makes these days almost always has a global effect.

[DrEast]

Is there a "heck, no" option?

United states, but I'd like to think I'd be unpatriotic no matter where I lived.

[muguly]

Nope, United States of Assholes.

[SeaCzar]

Having read all of this, how can one who is a citizen of the United States not have pride in their country? This country IS flawed, no doubt about it, but is still one of, if not the best place to live that I can think of. In what other country does hard work and self-motivation pay off as well as the US?

I am not jingoistic, but I do love my country, with all its flaws.

United States. Yes.

[Colette]

Yes, I think I am. New Zealand's such a small country that there is this sort of sense of tribalism and patriotism imbued in most of us, that is probably only rational to a moderate extent :)

I'm proud of the fact that NZ is a world leader in health and environmental awareness, that we are nuclear-free (and deliberately plan to remain that way), and that we support international peacekeeping efforts. I'm proud of the level of racial tolerance we have here, at our sympathetic treatment of the rights and aspirations of our indigenous people, and with our politically independent stance on matters of foreign policy.

I'm proud that we were the first country in the Western world to give women the vote, to split the atom, and to climb the highest mountain in the world, and that we have a world class film-making and film production industry.

As a woman, I'm proud that two of the top three leadership positions in this country are currently held by women - Helen Clark (Prime Minister) and Sian Elias (Chief Justice). Until recently it was all three (our former Governor-General was Dame Silvia Cartwright).

For a country of 4 billion people, we are a fairly impressive presence on the world stage :)

[CaptainA]

No USA But I choose to live here in preference to other places.





CaptainA added to this post, 12 minutes and 38 seconds later...

Having read all of this, how can one who is a citizen of the United States not have pride in their country?

That depends on whether you are talking about the country or the government. Yes we have a beautiful country, but a country is often judged by its actions/government and I am not currently proud of my government's actions in the world.

This country IS flawed, no doubt about it, but is still one of, if not the best place to live that I can think of.

I don't argue that point.

In what other country does hard work and self-motivation pay off as well as the US?

UK Australia NZ Most of Europe........

[Aeroscoper]

Yes, I think I am. New Zealand's such a small country that there is this sort of sense of tribalism and patriotism imbued in most of us, that is probably only rational to a moderate extent :)

I'm proud of the fact that NZ is a world leader in health and environmental awareness, that we are nuclear-free (and deliberately plan to remain that way), and that we support international peacekeeping efforts. I'm proud of the level of racial tolerance we have here, at our sympathetic treatment of the rights and aspirations of our indigenous people, and with our politically independent stance on matters of foreign policy.

I'm proud that we were the first country in the Western world to give women the vote, to split the atom, and to climb the highest mountain in the world, and that we have a world class film-making and film production industry.

As a woman, I'm proud that two of the top three leadership positions in this country are currently held by women - Helen Clark (Prime Minister) and Sian Elias (Chief Justice). Until recently it was all three (our former Governor-General was Dame Silvia Cartwright).

For a country of 4 billion people, we are a fairly impressive presence on the world stage :)


You're in NZ? Lucky!

Having read all of this, how can one who is a citizen of the United States not have pride in their country? This country IS flawed, no doubt about it, but is still one of, if not the best place to live that I can think of. In what other country does hard work and self-motivation pay off as well as the US?

I am not jingoistic, but I do love my country, with all its flaws.

United States. Yes.

I feel similarly, about both the country itself and the attitudes of other of our citizens.

[dragonsscout]

No, United States.

Having read all of this, how can one who is a citizen of the United States not have pride in their country?
I do have pride in the US, but it's more sort of a "Western" pride. I don't take pride in the people of the US. Why are they different from, say, Canadians? I don't take pride in the government. It's too much based around the vote-grabbing of an ill-informed populace. (My exception to this is the Supreme Court and parts of the bureaucracy, like the CIA.) I take pride in Western values, but that's about it.

This country IS flawed, no doubt about it, but is still one of, if not the best place to live that I can think of. In what other country does hard work and self-motivation pay off as well as the US?
Quite a few. Germany, Finland, and Sweden are all comparable to the US in this regard, I think. It also is a question of what you consider the pay off to be.

[schwartzie]

Having read all of this, how can one who is a citizen of the United States not have pride in their country? ...
In what other country does hard work and self-motivation pay off as well as the US?


The parts of the US that I take pride in, or find appealing aren't particularly nationalistic or uniquely shaped by geopolitical borders. There is a compelling argument that it is more useful/less destructive to take the viewpoint of a "world citizen."

[HeyZeus]

Fej loads the question. "Yes I love my country so much!!!" or "No". What kind of sap would answer yes given the options and invite ridicule? I don't want fej to think I'm square!

Yes. USA.

I have seen, firsthand, poverty in Central America that most "US Americans" only see through Sally Struthers and the like, accompanied by sad guitar-picking. I have seen the effects on good, honest, well-meaning, uneducated people, of governments that do not provide schooling for rural poor, and that preserve (through scholarships) the status quo 3% wealthy, 17% middle class, 80% hand-to-mouth poor, with very little opportunity for the poor to change their situation, and no protection from blatant, open, corruption and sexual harrassment. "Wanna job little girl? I'm your new boyfriend." Yes...not much more subtle than that. And no one cares, and no one (people nor institutions) acts to protect the weak. That's the "Circle of Life" in much of Central America. How is your situation by comparison, educated people with well-stocked fridges and compruders?

Being unpatriotic in America is as easy as being a Christian in America. Why? Cuz' it's all good...I'm fed, clothed, sheltered, and I gotz internet where I can express myself 24/7. 'All of my genius pours forth for the masses through web forums'. God loves everyone, but, first, HE LOVES ME!!! The American unpatriotic have never had their cushy, everyday way of life threatened, so it's easy to say "this sucks", but comparatively speaking, some folks might think about freedom and opportunity here. If you can find someone who lived thru WWII, ask them if they're patriotic, and why, fej. You might learn something about sacrifice. I'm reading some things that seem awfully myopic.

Start building that Utopia today, unpatriotic INTJs. What are you waiting for, you prisoners of "the system"? When you are finished, I wanna come kick it with you, so plan on mass immigration!

[dragonsscout]

Fej loads the question. "Yes I love my country so much!!!" or "No". What kind of sap would answer yes given the options and invite ridicule? I don't want fej to think I'm square!
Yes, this mildly annoyed me too.

I have seen, firsthand, poverty in Central America that most "US Americans" only see through Sally Struthers and the like, accompanied by sad guitar-picking. I have seen the effects on good, honest, well-meaning, uneducated people, of governments that do not provide schooling for rural poor, and that preserve (through scholarships) the status quo 3% wealthy, 17% middle class, 80% hand-to-mouth poor, with very little opportunity for the poor to change their situation, and no protection from blatant, open, corruption and sexual harrassment. "Wanna job little girl? I'm your new boyfriend." Yes...not much more subtle than that. And no one cares, and no one (people nor institutions) acts to protect the weak. That's the "Circle of Life" in much of Central America. How is your situation by comparison, educated people with well-stocked fridges and compruders?
Yes, but what's so different about the UK and the US in this regard?

Being unpatriotic in America is as easy as being a Christian in America. Why? Cuz' it's all good...I'm fed, clothed, sheltered, and I gotz internet where I can express myself 24/7. 'All of my genius pours forth for the masses through web forums'. God loves everyone, but, first, HE LOVES ME!!! The American unpatriotic have never had their cushy, everyday way of life threatened, so it's easy to say "this sucks", but comparatively speaking, some folks might think about freedom and opportunity here. If you can find someone who lived thru WWII, ask them if they're patriotic, and why, fej. You might learn something about sacrifice. I'm reading some things that seem awfully myopic.
I personally am very happy that I live in the US. I thank God almost everyday for giving me all that I have. I would gladly take up arms to defend my country, or to fight against an overly aggressive nation.

Start building that Utopia today, unpatriotic INTJs. What are you waiting for, you prisoners of "the system"? When you are finished, I wanna come kick it with you, so plan on mass immigration!
I find it's good to cut out the word "you" out of all of my sentences and try not to direct potentially offensive statements towards other members. I doesn't do well for rational, constructive discussion and debate. I try to change the system as best I can, to improve it. I consider myself to be unpatriotic because I take a step back and examine the US before I decide to be proud of it in any given situation.

[HeyZeus]

[QUOTE=dragonsscout;201189]Yes, this mildly annoyed me too.

It's okay to be mildly annoyed at someone's post, as long as you high-mindedly keep the "you's" out of the comment. That way, there is no confrontation around the campfire and no one feels offended, even if the original post was closed-minded!


Yes, but what's so different about the UK and the US in this regard?

I offered a comparison...what is being offered by the author of the reply by way of comparison? What observations of the developing world, and the difference in opportunity in the developed world is the author of the reply offering, other than an unsubstantiated feeling that corruption in US/UK is equal to that which I observed in CENTAM?


I find it's good to cut out the word "you" out of all of my sentences and try not to direct potentially offensive statements towards other members.

That is very often a good policy, and simultaneously a polite way of saying, "you need to..."

[AliTree]

yeahno, not at all.

(america)

[dragonsscout]

It's okay to be mildly annoyed at someone's post, as long as you high-mindedly keep the "you's" out of the comment. That way, there is no confrontation around the campfire and no one feels offended, even if the original post was closed-minded!
Sorry, I'm a bit lost. Was this referring to the beginning, end, or entire post?

I offered a comparison...what is being offered by the author of the reply by way of comparison? What observations of the developing world, and the difference in opportunity in the developed world is the author of the reply offering, other than an unsubstantiated feeling that corruption in US/UK is equal to that which I observed in CENTAM?
Again, I'm a bit lost, but I'll try to answer. I'm not saying that the US and a country like El Salvador have the same amount of corruption. What I'm saying is that the level of corruption in the US is similar to that of other developed, Western nations. I don't see why I should have more pride in the lack of corruption in the US than I should of the lack of corruption in Iceland. I haven't done much either way. This may change as I grow older, but for right now I find it pointless.

[Anderson]

USA-Yes.

"I love America. It's Americans I can't stand."--Bill Maher

My feelings exactly.

[gadjitfreek]

I love this country and the ideals upon which it is based...though those ideals have been horribly corrupted. It's a great country, a beautiful country. There's just a whole lot of stupid, bigoted, short-sighted and greedy people living in it.

I won't say the Pledge. I won't wear a flag pin. Those things mean NOTHING. Patriotism is what you do to make where you live a better place, not some shallow homage to symbolism.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Karamazov]

Start building that Utopia today, unpatriotic INTJs. What are you waiting for, you prisoners of "the system"? When you are finished, I wanna come kick it with you, so plan on mass immigration!

I believe most of the 'No's aren't due to some ill will towards the country or out of some unrealized Utopian pipe dream. More or less the superfluousness of having any attachment on arbitrary continental lines. The U.S. has a very good quality of life, but so does the U.K. and many other European countries.

The Op most likely expected the majority would vote no; or that he was simply mocking the notion itself.

[mxdntz]

USA-Yes.

"I love America. It's Americans I can't stand."--Bill Maher

My feelings exactly.

I love Americans. It's the complaining, bitching, moaning douche bags (like Bill Maher) who thrive off the system and enjoy its benefits as they bitch whom I can't stand! The whining liberals should either be sold as sex slaves or start voting because they outnumber Republicans by a wide margin.

[DrEast]

What is patriotism but a concession to a system of some sort?

And why do I need to yield to systems? They all fail, eventually.

[rwyatt365]

[America]

Am I happy to be an American. Yes.

Am I a patriotic, flag-waving American. No.

Being an American means that there are certain things that I might not ever have to endure, for that I am glad. It also means that I have to face the fact that America has perpetrated some massive evils on the rest of the world (and some of it's peoples within) in the name of that comfort. It's not a perfect place, but it's a pretty good one.

[Aeroscoper]

I love Americans. It's the complaining, bitching, moaning douche bags (like Bill Maher) who thrive off the system and enjoy its benefits as they bitch whom I can't stand! The whining liberals should either be sold as sex slaves or start voting because they outnumber Republicans by a wide margin.

+10000. Better yet are people that come to the country and benefit financially, then proceed whine and criticize and cry to change it to what they deem is the right way. Michael Moore, George Soros, Bono come to mind.

[dragonsscout]

The whining liberals should either be sold as sex slaves or start voting because they outnumber Republicans by a wide margin.

As a liberal, I support this statement. Come to think of it, all people who don't vote should be sold as sex slaves. :p

Seriously, though, I don't get why large portions of the population don't vote...

[Reon]

As a liberal, I support this statement. Come to think of it, all people who don't vote should be sold as sex slaves. :p

Seriously, though, I don't get why large portions of the population don't vote...

I haven't taken civics in a while but doesn't the electoral college actually elect the president, not us? I mean a person's vote doesn't seem to matter much, even when thousands to millions have people have voted and we get like...3 'for real' votes >>

Edit: Sorry, its REALLY been a while.

[dragonsscout]

Yeah, the electoral college actually elects the President, but we vote for the electors and usually they are bound to vote for the pick of their voters by law (I think). I don't really like it and think that it should just be by popular vote, but that's a different topic.

The thing is though, even if the politician you support doesn't get elected, the percentage of the vote that the politician has often affects that person's decisions when lawmaking. It also affects the decisions of other politicians and voters. If a President is less popular, he has a harder time negotiating with Congress, because they risk losing less support by opposing the President. Voters often vote for the front runners too (I have no clue why). Not to mention the fact that all those votes add up. One raindrop raises the ocean.

[Reon]

Yeah, the electoral college actually elects the President, but we vote for the electors and usually they are bound to vote for the pick of their voters by law (I think). I don't really like it and think that it should just be by popular vote, but that's a different topic.

The thing is though, even if the politician you support doesn't get elected, the percentage of the vote that the politician has often affects that person's decisions when lawmaking. It also affects the decisions of other politicians and voters. If a President is less popular, he has a harder time negotiating with Congress, because they risk losing less support by opposing the President. Voters often vote for the front runners too (I have no clue why). Not to mention the fact that all those votes add up. One raindrop raises the ocean.

That would be my ideal but I don't think it would be 'completely' fair, I know of tons of people who vote for a president because of a superficial feature they have and aren't informed of that particular candidates politics or, at the least, character.

I guess I haven't thought about it that way but I can see why 'some' people don't vot.

[dragonsscout]

That would be my ideal but I don't think it would be 'completely' fair, I know of tons of people who vote for a president because of a superficial feature they have and aren't informed of that particular candidates politics or, at the least, character.
Yeah, I think that's not good, but I'd like to think that's a matter of education. It probably isn't, but if I don't think that I'd just get angry at the world and go live in a cave or something.:laugh:

[schwartzie]

Seriously, though, I don't get why large portions of the population don't vote...

A good rule of thumb is "follow the money"

At least part of the reason people do not participate in electoral politics is that people have been sold the idea that government and politicians are weak, bad, ineffectual; that big government is always bad government; that when the political process yields bad results, it's because politicians are lazy, self-interested, etc. That they, the citizens, are essentially powerless to have any effect whatsoever, so they shouldn't waste their time. They are merely part of the herd, and can trust themselves to the herd.

Liberals and libertarians alike have let the concept of government "of the people, by the people and for the people" be watered down by this kind of disparagement. There is little popular culture or social advocacy that supports the "retaking" of government.

There are some groups and thinkers, like the "change congress" (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) organization who more or less agree with the above, and think one key is to modify the money stream.

[zibber]

I love Americans. It's the complaining, bitching, moaning douche bags (like Bill Maher) who thrive off the system and enjoy its benefits as they bitch whom I can't stand! The whining liberals should either be sold as sex slaves or start voting because they outnumber Republicans by a wide margin.

I missed the part where you went beyond the ad hom and countered his arguments?

[Paradox]

Sorry to interrupt the current trend of discussion but to answer the question in the opening post, I'm thoroughly unpatriotic. I just don't see the allure in it. A lot of patriotic people I know tend to be blind to the country's problems. They're the type of people who are so resistant to change that they would rather stick their heads in the sand, as opposed to compromising with people of other viewpoints in an effort to address change.

Oh, I forgot to add that I'm Australian (living in Australia, obviously).

[dragonsscout]

At least part of the reason people do not participate in electoral politics is that people have been sold the idea that government and politicians are weak, bad, ineffectual; that big government is always bad government; that when the political process yields bad results, it's because politicians are lazy, self-interested, etc. That they, the citizens, are essentially powerless to have any effect whatsoever, so they shouldn't waste their time. They are merely part of the herd, and can trust themselves to the herd.

Yeah, as much as I hate it, it's probably true. :( Unfortunately a lot of people believe what they're told, without double-checking the facts or trying to change whatever it is they don't like. Yay for my Ni rearing it's head.

[CarolinetheENFP]

with all my heart
America the Beautiful :)

[void]

I love Americans. It's the complaining, bitching, moaning douche bags (like Bill Maher) who thrive off the system and enjoy its benefits as they bitch whom I can't stand! The whining liberals should either be sold as sex slaves or start voting because they outnumber Republicans by a wide margin.

I think life as sex slaves is too good for those America-hating liberal scumbags. They should be put in concentration camps. One for atheists, one for anti-war protesters, one for pot smokers, etc. Think of how much better the fatherland would be if libtards were permanently removed like the shit stains they are. They have made life a living hell for us God-fearing, red-blooded patriots. We need the charisma and leadership of a certain famous German leader I can think of.

[TheLastMohican]

Come to think of it, all people who don't vote should be sold as sex slaves.

Claptonian will set his rock band on you.

[PHS Philip]

+10000. Better yet are people that come to the country and benefit financially, then proceed whine and criticize and cry to change it to what they deem is the right way. Michael Moore, George Soros, Bono come to mind.

I didn't "come here." I was born here, I've lived here my entire life. But that's irrelevant. It's just plain ignorant to claim that just because someone's foreign, they have no right to criticize the way America is run. The entire point of America is that everyone living here tries to change it to be better than it is. Opposition to the way things are run is one of the most pro-American things you can do, because opposition to those in power is so core to how America works that 3 of the first 4 rights granted in the Bill of Rights deal with opposition to the government.

[TheLastMohican]

One other thing, Aeroscoper: don't you know that Michael Moore grew up in Flint, Michigan?

[dragonsscout]

Claptonian will set his rock band on you.

:thumbsup:That would be awesome! Maybe we should compromise... Hmm, sex slaves on Sundays only? That might encourage more people to not vote though...

[TheLastMohican]

:thumbsup:That would be awesome! Maybe we should compromise... Hmm, sex slaves on Sundays only? That might encourage more people to not vote though...

I meant that Claptonian (who doesn't vote) would never allow himself to be sold into slavery. He's dangerous, and he has dangerous friends. Are you really gutsy enough to challenge the guy brandishing that broom?

[dragonsscout]

I meant that Claptonian (who doesn't vote) would never allow himself to be sold into slavery. He's dangerous, and he has dangerous friends. Are you really gutsy enough to challenge the guy brandishing that broom?

True, he looks more scary with only his broom than all of the rest of the band combined. :)

[Antares]

Having read all of this, how can one who is a citizen of the United States not have pride in their country? This country IS flawed, no doubt about it, but is still one of, if not the best place to live that I can think of. In what other country does hard work and self-motivation pay off as well as the US?

America is a beautiful country, but not more beautiful than other beautiful countries. America has a democracy, but that's the government. If we decide to judge your country by your government, then many can rightly hate your country. Borders are created by the government, so why love it? Can you not love Canada as well as America? I know for a fact that Canada is just as beautiful as America, as well as, in my opinion, a better place to live (in fact, I plan on moving out of America as soon as I complete my education there). I love the fact that my country has a rich culture and beautiful sceneries, but you will never find me proud of the territory created by the gigantic game of 'Risk'. I will never deem my country's history or natural wonders superior of those of other political territories, so I don't see how I can feel proud of that. Let's tally what I like and don't like about aspects of my country, which is currently (I intend to change that) Communist China.

Government: Hate it
Dominant Social/Cultural Ideology: If I can, I would damn it to hell
People: No affections, bordering on dislike
Heritage: Love it, but the sexism really gets to me
History: Colorful and fun to read, for sure
Natural Sceneries: I can think of so many countries that can top China in this area, I'm not even going to form an opinion. In fact, I've never been impressed, not even the slightest, by China's natural 'wonders'.
Artifacts/Architecture etc: I, for one, think that Shanghai Oriental Art Center is superior to Sydney Opera House (I've performed in both), but that would be like comparing apples and oranges, I suppose. I like a lot of things about Chinese architecture, such as the Great Wall, the Birdnest and Victoria Harbour. By the way, Shanghai's Pudong International Airport is NOTHING compared to Hong Kong's very own ;)

[ame]

yes
united kingdom.

because i live here i have an investment in it's survival. if rulership changed to something akin to fascism in any way that i could'nt do anything about, changing location then re-patriotising to somewhere else with similar values would be an easy option.
so i guess that line is not very strict. yes and no. i try to live symbiotically with my surroundings.

[rewhu]

Yes. United States. During school I was the only kid in the class to stand during the daily pledge of allegience. Not because I was brainwashed by a public school system, but because I believe deeply in the ideals that we were founded on and choose to support them. Of all nations on the Earth at this precise moment in time, we have the greatest capacity to do both good or evil. We may lose this position in the future when the natural tides of history smash away our sandcastle, but for the moment, no matter how many people may revere or look at us with disgust, we are shouldering great technological, economic, and military power and are morally obligated to find responsible uses for it. I believe that we can.

Wow! Any school I went to all the students and teachers were required to stand with their hands over their hearts for the pledge of allegiance. I never had the option to not stand. The only times I can recall a student not standing was if they were sick or acting out, and those acting out were promptly punished.

I also remember more than one teacher telling us to speak up if the class didn’t recite the pledge with enough zeal. I always thought that most students mumbled the pledge because it was early in the morning and we all just need more sleep. I suppose there could have been some kids who didn’t believe in the pledge.

[dragonsscout]

Wow! Any school I went to all the students and teachers were required to stand with their hands over their hearts for the pledge of allegiance. I never had the option to not stand. The only times I can recall a student not standing was if they were sick or acting out, and those acting out were promptly punished.

I also remember more than one teacher telling us to speak up if the class didn’t recite the pledge with enough zeal. I always thought that most students mumbled the pledge because it was early in the morning and we all just need more sleep. I suppose there could have been some kids who didn’t believe in the pledge.
I guess INTJs just have be be contrary to the majority of their societies. :laugh: Actually, that was the same with me. I stand, but I modify the pledge to fit with my beliefs.

"I pledge conditional allegiance... to the republic for which it stands: one nation... mostly indivisible, with liberty and justice for most."

It might seem silly, but I want to have a pledge that I'll honestly stick by.

[Canegrande]

Yes. I love this country. Even through disappointments, tears and fears I still love her.

[michael ingram]

No, United States.

[SongofSeptember]

Not really - Australia-- but I really have only lived there for two years and don't know it well enough, so:
No - China-- where I grew up and where I'm ethnically from, and this is a definite no.

[Chucklebug]

No. Australia.

[LaoTzu]

Yes. Canadian. : I dont show it on the outside in a public way, but I am proud of what my country has been, and is now. It is dedicated to tolerance, social justice, and respect of other cultures/nations. I like to say 'we have all the benefits of being Americans, without actually having to BE Americans' :P

Yes. United States. ........we are shouldering great technological, economic, and military power and are morally obligated to find responsible uses for it. I believe that we can.

Just to let you know, many of those people outside the US who are considered 'anti-american' feel the same way about you too. They hope you can really bring that promise to the world. It's part of the reason you take so much abuse, you have so much potential, but are crippled by the self-interest of a minority of you. People who have looked up to you in the past are angry that you haven't found your way yet.

[Timdotz]

No. - New Zealand.

This is mainly because I dislike the western perspectives on humanitarian rights. Too much money goes to welfare, to little tax-cuts for high earners. Interestingly enough, if I lived in Singapore, yes. Capital punishment for drug-smuggling, the cane and a prison sentence for vandals. My type of country. :P

[MindOverMatter]

No USA