What's your opinion on this...

[Liquid]

I have an axe, and I'm chopping some wood in half down by a lake. The handle breaks, so I go down to the store and buy a new handle. I fix the axe and continue to chop the wood. A half hour later, the blade shoots off the top of the handle and lands at the bottom of a deep lake to be lost forever. So I go back to the store to buy a blade and fix the axe once more.

The question is, is this the same axe, or is it a new axe?

[Mechanical Messiah]

A similar question could be applied to my rusty old Ford truck.

The only thing I can conclusively say is that you need to buy some proper wedges for your axe handle. It ain't rocket science.

[Tocsin]

I suppose it might be redundant to suggest that this is probably a pretty half-axed topic. :wacky:

[Antares]

Well, that's like asking the question if you take away everything from a computer except the motherboard and put on new parts until the computer is complete again... I'd say 'half' :D

[Noehelia]

I have an axe, and I'm chopping some wood in half down by a lake. The handle breaks, so I go down to the store and buy a new handle. I fix the axe and continue to chop the wood. A half hour later, the blade shoots off the top of the handle and lands at the bottom of a deep lake to be lost forever. So I go back to the store to buy a blade and fix the axe once more.

The question is, is this the same axe, or is it a new axe?

So no part is left from the original axe, thus it is a new axe.
However in terms of the shop you have not bought a new axe, you have bought parts.

[Monte314]

This is the kind of question that makes lawyers rich.

Here's another instance: over the course of 7 years (or so I've heard) your body completely replaces all your somatic cells. Are you still "you"?

[bmallerd]

Sure you are. Your DNA is the same.

[Monte314]

Sure you are. Your DNA is the same.

It's the same DNA in DIFFERENT molecules. Are you saying that if the PATTERN is replicated, so is the entity itself? (That does give an answer to the question...)

[Mechanical Messiah]

Sure you are. Your DNA is the same.No... it ain't. Not only does DNA mutate at a fairly predictable rate- but retroviruses actually change sequences in your DNA.

[Saint]

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[zarathustra]

I think the answer lies as to whether you perceive the axe to be your original axe or a new axe. I am talking for any special meaning that the object has to you that would eventually distinguish it from any other axe made of identical material.

Let's say that when the axe was built the maker produced 1000 identical axes from identical material, the only thing different about your axe then would be that it is your axe instead of any other same axe, this is however your subjective perception of the axe as it is the same axe with the rest 999 axes.

However your axe would be different if it had some special meaning for you, like memories or experiences connected to the specific axe, that would distinguish it from any other axe.

From my point of view, if you completely replace the material of the axe, but the axe remains of the same significance to you, then it is still your axe; but if replacing the material of the axe makes you feel that it has lost its original identity and value to you then you have a new axe.

It is not the object itself, but the way you perceive it and your personal relation to it.
If you feel your original axe is lost forever then so it is.
If you feel the new axe is of the same value to you, then nothing can distinguish it from your old axe.

Perception makes the difference, but there are no strict rules about it.

One would not normally care much about an axe, however if you do care about something, then it most probably had some special value to you, and if you start to doubt its identity then most probably it would be difficult to accept that the new axe is the same with your old axe.

If you never questioned whether the axe is a new one or not, then you would most probably perceive it as the same axe that serves the same need and has the same value for you.

[ScottH]

Good answer zarathustra. I think I would agree, but say it a bit differently.

"Sameness" is a human construct. So, two things (or one thing at two times) are the same if you say they are.

Removing the human element, Monte is correct about cell replacement, and there's more. Our atoms are constantly replaced by others, electrons leave and new ones take their place...

Upon every swing of the ax, it's shape is likely slightly different (some crystals rearranged within the metallic structure of the blade), etc.

[Monte314]

If you admit one of the multiverse cosmologies, where everything along contingent paths comes into existence moment by moment, then you don't even have to have the "AXE-ident" to ask this question. Is this the same axe that was sitting here 1 pico-second ago?

[ScottH]

Absolutely right. This is why I say "sameness" is a human construct; can we not redefine it arbitrarily so as to be able to answer as we wish?

[Theonymic]

This is the kind of question that makes lawyers rich.

Here's another instance: over the course of 7 years (or so I've heard) your body completely replaces all your somatic cells. Are you still "you"?

Hehe, I can see this leading down a long, dark path, undoubtedly encountering self-awareness, identity, various forms of memory loss, and a number of other unthinkably fell beasts...

[zibber]

This is the kind of question that makes lawyers rich.

Here's another instance: over the course of 7 years (or so I've heard) your body completely replaces all your somatic cells. Are you still "you"?

Consciousness appears to be uninterrupted/constant as this subtle renewal takes place (assuming a (mentally) healthy individual), so it would be hard to contend that there is a break in identity.

[NephilimAzrael]

Consciousness appears to be uninterrupted/constant as this subtle renewal takes place (assuming a (mentally) healthy individual), so it would be hard to contend that there is a break in identity.

Likewise with the functionality of the axe, yet it is by all effect a different axe from the axe in components. Just like we cannot say the axes have a collective existence.
(Altough that would be a nice excuse.
Person A: Use the axe to chop the wood,
Person B: Done,
Person A: But you did not chop the wood,
Person B: Well you referred to the axe chopping the wood, and I am sure that at least one part of the axe collective has chopped wood)

Tangent point to me.

[Dreamer]

I don't know but with your luck,you better not buy a chainsaw.

[Jakalwarrior]

It's the same DNA in DIFFERENT molecules. Are you saying that if the PATTERN is replicated, so is the entity itself? (That does give an answer to the question...)

I have put a lot of thought into that. Mainly because I was considering the fact that when we attain immortality our brains will eventually change enough over time until we are completely different people. After all, our brains have limited storage capacity and do change structurally over time.
Hence I do not believe true immortality is possible without technologial assistance with memory retention and brain structure... Then comes the question of whether or not maintaining your present "self" is preferable to slowly fading away and allowing the evolution of a new self that isnt really you!

Back to the origional question ;)
It is a "refurbished" axe.

[tp6626]

I think this is a case of retained information.

That is, yes, the original 'axe' has gone (in its physical form), but the new physical entities coming in to replace the old ones are being reconfigured in (practically) exactly the same way as the old ones. This represents the storing of information about the entities configuration, and hence the information lives on.

I say practically, because, inevitably there will be some data loss in the transfer, and this will act to change the entities make-up and funtion very slightly. However, the human perception of the entity would be such that it appears not to have changed at all. I.e. if 'the change' was not observed, it would not be detected at all.

Now, this applies to Monte314's example of the body rebuilding itself in full every 7 years. The only thing actually retained is information about the make-up of the body, and this is what humans perceive through its physical appearance and function (behaviour).

This example is nice in that it is very clear where the information is stored. This is within the DNA, which is in effect a digital code capable of replicating itself.

The question I am leaving open (I have my own idea), is:

In the case of the axe,where is the retained information kept?

[Cicatrix]

Physically its not the same axe. Emotionally it might be the same axe. If you knew the axe before its physical change it might emotionally be the same axe.

[echoi]

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Material versus Formal causes

[ScurvyRose]

OK, here is my go at it! Initially the ax was purchased whole. After time, the handle was replaced, and used with the origional blade. The blade and the new handle became one, and the use of the ax as a whole was commenced. After a time, the blade is replaced and a new one is applied to the replaced handle and they work as the new whole.

In each part some of the original remains present. The new handle melded with the old head and became one. And so on with each replacement. The continuity of the object, and its unchanged purpose, implementation, and perception of what it is has never changed.

It is still your ax, it is not a new one. At no point was the origional ever completely tossed, and a new unit purchased.

The same applies to your back yard grill. After a few years you go through replacing or fixing almost every component. After each replacement you never have a new grill. That comes after you get sick of replacing parts, scrap it all together and go buy a new one that is whole!

[127001]

Consciousness appears to be uninterrupted/constant as this subtle renewal takes place (assuming a (mentally) healthy individual), so it would be hard to contend that there is a break in identity.

Not entirely. There are various levels of consciousness, as seen from mild seizures, the passage to REM sleep, etc.

[Lagawrd]

How a topic branches off into so many others, brilliant. I think speaking about conciousness is a bit of a stretch to this type of question. Anyways, it IS a new axe, if you somehow retrieve that axe blade from the bottom of the river, fix your old handle and put your old parts together, you will have two axes, the old one and the new one.

[tp6626]

Anyways, it IS a new axe, if you somehow retrieve that axe blade from the bottom of the river, fix your old handle and put your old parts together, you will have two axes, the old one and the new one.

Ok ok, we know. We're just being creative, and having a bit of fun exploring the question. As INTJ's do. It doesn't mean we really believe what we're saying, we're just riffing on a theme really!

[shakes head and tuts]

[Lagawrd]

Ok ok, we know. We're just being creative, and having a bit of fun exploring the question. As INTJ's do. It doesn't mean we really believe what we're saying, we're just riffing on a theme really!

[shakes head and tuts]

I know, I know. I just wanted to look like the concentrated one of the bunch. It was all an act. You should know better.

[SirJac]

Reminds me of my computer~ None of the original peices are in it, except maybe some screws. I just kept upgrading it and putting in new parts, occasionally even frankensteining it with other computers. But it's always been the same computer to me.

[Wuchak]

Consciousness . . . previous to the events, did you somehow (wittingly or unwittingly) create what would become the realities of the broken handle and ax head in the lake?

Entanglement . . . if all is one, does it matter whether it is the same or new? Does any ax simply exist (if it exists) as part of the whole? Do some particles within any those pieces simultaneously also exist in other locations?

Are there two axes--one comprised of a broken piece and a lost piece--and another ax recently constructed? Or have there actually been three axes, while only one has been in use at any given point in time?

Will you create another potential of broken and/or lost ax parts? If so, will you be aware that you created it?