Graffiti, is it art? [Archive]

notoppings

08-08-2008, 08:47 AM

Rohsiph

08-08-2008, 08:56 AM

An urban environment, by its very nature, can never be pristine.

That said, I think I agree with you, notoppings: some graffiti is art, some is obviously just vandalism.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about an 'artistic' tagger getting caught in the act vs. a 'vandal' tagger . . . whether there should be a double-standard. Probably not; it's part of the culture to know when to create.

spittingvenom

08-08-2008, 09:45 AM

What makes art, art? The intent of the artist or the point of view of viewer?

I love graffiti, vandalism or not. Yes, vandalism often offends and is oft illegal but so are many other kinds of art. Just because it is vandalism doesn't make it any less art.

If you don't know who banksy is, check this out:

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Motor Jax

08-08-2008, 10:01 AM

i agree, i love to see some really artistic graffiti

AutisticCuckoo

08-08-2008, 10:24 AM

I think it's an abomination, and if you're defacing someone else's property without permission it's definitely vandalism.

If I encountered anyone with a spray can in the vicinity of my property I'd probably be in court on a manslaughter charge shortly thereafter.

zibber

08-08-2008, 11:16 AM

I love graffiti, and there's so much to love in Amsterdam. Look for "Kroonjuwelen" on Youtube if you're interested in Dutch graffiti.

Is it art? Generally no. Actually, artistic graffitists tend to be either older guys who left the graffiti scene or people who were never in it to begin with. I don't really like the idea of the latter category being grouped together with scene guys in the popular mind, it lacks nuance.

The thing with real graffitists (just using that to avoid confusion by using "graffiti artists") is that it's a subculture thing for them; grouping together, spreading their own name and that of their crew and competing to deliver the slickest, most stylish pieces (a term derived from "masterpiece"!) on the most visible and/or hard-to-reach spots. It's primarily a matter of honor and self-promotion, but as innovation is definitely a factor and there is certainly a kind of historical canon of reknowned bombers (every Dutch kid with a spraycan knows who Quik, Shoe and Delta are, and they haven't been active for well over a decade), it would be hard to completely dismiss the artistic side of graffiti.

If I encountered anyone with a spray can in the vicinity of my property I'd probably be in court on a manslaughter charge shortly thereafter.

Just for your information, respected bombers stay away from private property. Please don't kill guys that make trains prettier!

muguly

08-08-2008, 11:46 AM

It is an art form. Just like all art, some people like it, some don't. But you can't say it's not art because of the way it was created or the environment in which it resides. I graff from time to time and to see people admire my work is a geat feeling. I put the same emotion into my art work that other do to theirs.

AutisticCuckoo

08-08-2008, 11:52 AM

Please don't kill guys that make trains prettier!
Not that I agree that spray-painting trains make them prettier, but I don't feel the same homicidal urge about that. I do resent it, though, since it causes me to have to pay more for train tickets because the railway company has to spend unnecessary money cleaning up after the vandals.

NephilimAzrael

08-08-2008, 12:30 PM

As a ground for an opinion, I would take greater pride in painting my house by the spray-can rather than the hardware can.
Individuals who use graffiti like a partisan symbol, acronym or statement are not artists but hoodlums.
As for those that express through imagery and are willing to put effort into their art, they are artists. Particularly if the art is rich.
The whole dilemma is where they place their canvas, and that is when it becomes considered vandalism (I dislike that term).

Rohsiph

08-09-2008, 07:49 AM

Not that I agree that spray-painting trains make them prettier, but I don't feel the same homicidal urge about that. I do resent it, though, since it causes me to have to pay more for train tickets because the railway company has to spend unnecessary money cleaning up after the vandals.

What if the societal view on graffiti could be changed such that railway companies would no longer feel the need to repaint train cars because there's graffiti on them, but instead would repaint only when the cars needed a new coat of paint?

I understand that it's currently the precedent to feel like a statement "the railway company has to spend unnecessary money cleaning up" is apt, but I don't see how it's something that has to remain the precedent indefinitely.

zibber

08-09-2008, 10:05 AM

I understand that it's currently the precedent to feel like a statement "the railway company has to spend unnecessary money cleaning up" is apt, but I don't see how it's something that has to remain the precedent indefinitely.

My sentiments exactly. If anyone is to blame for the influence of cleaning costs on train tickets, it's the stubborn rail companies and the people who prefer plain concrete over a little culture, pretty or not.

AutisticCuckoo

08-09-2008, 10:30 AM

What if the societal view on graffiti could be changed such that railway companies would no longer feel the need to repaint train cars because there's graffiti on them, but instead would repaint only when the cars needed a new coat of paint?

Then I'd just think it was fugly and stop swearing about it. Perhaps I'd lament society's sudden loss of the last shreds of good taste. :)

Whether you think this spray-can doodling is beautiful or not is up to you. I think it's horrible, but that's me. The issue I have with this is that those so-called 'artists' spray their paint on the property of owners who doesn't want them to.

Would you feel as benevolent towards this if some punk covered your brand new car with his tags? What if he felt that keying was an artistic expression?

Deadgod

08-09-2008, 10:37 AM

Graffiti is art for those who are lost in an alienating world. It is a reflection of the times we live in; of the degeneracy and hypocrisy the world has come to be. It is the human condition at work, striving to find the beauty in the presence of ugliness. It is art with no morals behind it. It is isn't good or bad; it just simply is.

Saint

08-12-2008, 04:46 PM

Of course it's art.

But when you put art on other people's shit, they have every right to get mad.

Apparently, some get really mad:

If I encountered anyone with a spray can in the vicinity of my property I'd probably be in court on a manslaughter charge shortly thereafter.

Seek help.

dandylion

08-12-2008, 11:06 PM

If I encountered anyone with a spray can in the vicinity of my property I'd probably be in court on a manslaughter charge shortly thereafter.

Aww. You don't have to do that. You can take out a BB gun and mistake them for squirrels.

AutisticCuckoo

08-13-2008, 12:12 AM

Seek help.
Don't need it. I'm 6'3"/200 lbs so I'm sure I can take on a couple of acne-ridden junkies by myself. ;)

zibber

08-13-2008, 12:21 AM

Of course it's art.

But when you put art on other people's shit, they have every right to get mad.

I love that, that should answer AC's criticism.

this spray-can doodling

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Just the first Google hit on an Amsterdam legend (Delta). I mean, I'm just saying. Doodling? This stuff transcends the medium. (All spray-canned, by the way, no brushes.)

AutisticCuckoo

08-13-2008, 02:16 AM

I mean, I'm just saying. Doodling?
Well, I can't see what it's supposed to be, so I'd call it doodling. Looks much like the sort of thing people draw on their notepads during boring business meetings.

I agree that it's skillfully done, of course.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that the Swedish word for 'art' (konst) is very similar to our word for 'weird' (konstig). :)

zibber

08-13-2008, 04:17 AM

Well, I can't see what it's supposed to be, so I'd call it doodling.

Well, so much for abstract art ;)

(It says MESS, by the way.)

ps. This would turn into a pointless squabble if I emphasised this, but I just want to add it to my post. You honestly can't appreciate the spatial play, softness and subtle lighting effects in that piece? You honestly see that kind of sophistication in people's doodles?

AutisticCuckoo

08-13-2008, 06:15 AM

Well, so much for abstract art ;)
Yeah, not my cup of tea, as you probably suspect.

(It says MESS, by the way.)
Cool! Self-descriptive, then! (J/K).
Now that you've told me I guess I can make it out. It's like those hateful CAPTCHAs on poorly designed websites.

You honestly can't appreciate the spatial play, softness and subtle lighting effects in that piece?
As I said, I agree that it's skillfully done. The 'artist' obviously has talent. But art needs to harmonize with its surroundings (in my opinion), and I can't imagine any surroundings that would harmonize with that – except perhaps the room of a 7-year-old girl with a nasty drug habit and an unhealthy fascination with the colour pink.

Again, this sort of 'art' is not to my taste, but I don't claim to have the 'right' taste or anything. To each his/her own. The issue I have with this is that it's done on other people's property against the owners' will.

People who appreciate graffiti should invite or hire those 'artists' to spray-paint their living-room or bedroom walls. That way you might kill two birds with one stone.

Also, the majority of stuff spray-painted on walls by graffiti 'artists' is nowhere near as skillfully done as in that picture. At least not in the town where I work.

zibber

08-13-2008, 06:31 AM

Yeah, not my cup of tea [abstract art], as you probably suspect.

...

But art needs to harmonize with its surroundings (in my opinion), and I can't imagine any surroundings that would harmonize with that – except perhaps the room of a 7-year-old girl with a nasty drug habit and an unhealthy fascination with the colour pink.

Ah. I guess it comes down to definition and preference, then. As an art history student I'm inclined to come at things from a theoretical perspective, but I suppose "art should represent something" and "art should be in harmony with the surroundings" are valid opinions, albeit slightly conservative (in terms of art historical development).

I agree that average spray-painting kids are vandals primarily, but it's blunt and devoid of nuance to stick the term "graffitist" on every person who paints walls with spraycans and be done with it. I stand by my view that the existence of a historical canon and the element of innovation in the work of some graffitists make it impossible to dismiss (their) graffiti as art completely. That would be an acceptable argument at the art history faculty of the University of Amsterdam and, although it still depends on a particular definition, I'd hope it is here.

AutisticCuckoo

08-13-2008, 07:11 AM

Ah. I guess it comes down to definition and preference, then.
I think so. Are there any objective truths when it comes to art? Isn't that a very subjective topic?

I suppose "art should represent something" and "art should be in harmony with the surroundings" are valid opinions, albeit slightly conservative (in terms of art historical development).
I'm an old geezer and I don't deny being more than slightly conservative in some aspects.

I stand by my view that the existence of a historical canon and the element of innovation in the work of some graffitists make it impossible to dismiss (their) graffiti as art completely.
I fully respect your view, even though I don't share it.

Wouldn't you be upset, though, if you'd finally been able to buy your dream house, dream car, dream boat or whatever, only to find one morning that it had been covered in graffiti? No matter how 'artful' it was?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical question. I'm honestly curious if you, who appreciate the works of some graffiti artists, would accept to have your property 'decorated' without your permission.

I would go mental, but I don't like the stuff to begin with. :)

zibber

08-13-2008, 07:51 AM

I don't mean that as a rhetorical question. I'm honestly curious if you, who appreciate the works of some graffiti artists, would accept to have your property 'decorated' without your permission.

Oh, I'd dig it :)

Actually, some established names from the Amsterdam scene filled up a wall right across the path from my houseboat (which is kind of hard to reach for graffitists), and I love it. I can see it from the windows! My neighbourhood is pretty ghetto anyway, a lot of stuff just stays up indefinitely. I love doing a little graff archaeology.

(NB: I fully agree that defiling someone's private property is vandalism, though, and wouldn't blame you for making the life of anyone who did it to you hell. Again, the people I'm into never or very rarely bomb houses.)

Neuro

08-13-2008, 08:06 AM

I think it's all atrocious personally. The style is gaudy even if it's a government approved mural. Petty vandals should face stiff sentences of being kicked in the balls.

Works as 'writing on the wall' as well of course. I feel the same way about litter. If you litter you're a fucking punk and should be dished out a slightly lighter sentence of ball pain, but the presence of litter itself works well as another social thermometer.

zibber

08-13-2008, 09:02 AM

I really had no idea graffiti inspired these violent tendencies in people. I get it when people trust their knee jerk reactions when discussing pedosexuality, but graffiti?

(Government approved murals are generally horrible where I'm from, by the way!)

AutisticCuckoo

08-13-2008, 10:56 AM

(NB: I fully agree that defiling someone's private property is vandalism, though, and wouldn't blame you for making the life of anyone who did it to you hell. Again, the people I'm into never or very rarely bomb houses.)
I hope you realise that my earlier comments about manslaughter were greatly exaggerated and meant to be tongue-in-cheek. (That's not always easy to convey in writing, especially in a foreign language.)

I'm not a violent person, but I would fully understand if a person were to inflict grievous bodily harm on a punk defacing that person's property. If you choose to break the law, I don't think you have much right to demand its protection from other law-breakers. If you don't want to get beaten up, don't spray graffiti on other people's property. Simple! :)

ArchonAlarion

08-13-2008, 11:23 AM

Monte314

08-13-2008, 03:08 PM

It's folk art. It's also vandalism.

lancelot

08-13-2008, 03:22 PM

Graffiti is most definitly art.

It is one of oldest forms of art.

There is graffiti (D.E.I. :"Dabney eats it") on space probes.

I met "Mitch Taylor"! (Darlington Electronics Industries).

replicant

08-14-2008, 08:00 PM

Graffiti, is it art? I've come across some rather remarkable work out there that is termed graffiti, but I think it's very artistic. I don't think the majority of it is anything but tagging or out right vandalism but some of it really shines.

Do we have any aspiring graffiti artist in here or is it some sub culture thing?
Do you like some of the graffiti out there?
Do you think it is just vandalism?

Graffiti is an art form and tool of expression. Like Art (very subjective), the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A simple tag can be amazing even in its simplicity.

I love old wheat paste graffiti. I love murals. I admire the works of many including Banksy.

I am not a graffiti artist but I do enjoy looking at it and taking pictures. There is a wonderful book all on graffiti called Graffiti World (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). I recommend it a lot.

I look up to Banksy and I like Shephard Fairey but Shephard has been targeted as a plagiarist so you make the decision - To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I take pictures of fiti when I find in my area (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Is it vandalism? In b&w definitions, yes. The graffiti I don't care for is the kind that little work has been done and its a mere scribble or deliberate act of starting conflict - i.e. gang signs etc. I do like art and messages. You can get your point across with taste. I think more businesses should embrace graffiti artists - free art - how cool.

lancelot

08-15-2008, 02:24 PM

Graffiti is an art form and tool of expression. Like Art (very subjective), the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A simple tag can be amazing even in its simplicity.

I love old wheat paste graffiti. I love murals. I admire the works of many including Banksy.

I am not a graffiti artist but I do enjoy looking at it and taking pictures. There is a wonderful book all on graffiti called Graffiti World (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). I recommend it a lot.

I look up to Banksy and I like Shephard Fairey but Shephard has been targeted as a plagiarist so you make the decision - To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I take pictures of fiti when I find in my area (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Is it vandalism? In b&w definitions, yes. The graffiti I don't care for is the kind that little work has been done and its a mere scribble or deliberate act of starting conflict - i.e. gang signs etc. I do like art and messages. You can get your point across with taste. I think more businesses should embrace graffiti artists - free art - how cool.

Cool posts Replicant!, Interesting links. You are very objective regarding graffitti. It's interesting how graffitti can be a from of rebellion, defiance, or just someone saying hello. Other examples of graffitti are people taking pride in who they are and saying we are here, we were a part of this, as in the case of the engineering students. ...........See example below.

This is an instance of the initials "DEI" which, interpreted as "Dabney Eats It", have a long history at Caltech, and are said to have been inscribed by Caltech alumni at (among other places) the summit of Everest, on the Moon, and on many satellites and space probes manufactured at JPL.

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Dreamer

08-16-2008, 12:23 AM

No, not on public propriety (which I pay with my taxes), not on private property except your own.

If you want to paint a freaking graffiti, go buy your own building or wall.

Airius

08-16-2008, 01:55 AM

I don't mind it, and sometimes, I even like how it looks. :)

lancelot

08-16-2008, 11:30 AM

I don't mind it, and sometimes, I even like how it looks. :)

Ilegal art,... it's so interesting and controversial!

Yet honestly, I would not want my business, store, office tagged.
I suppose in a situation of political oppression, or social injustice graffitti is
an appropriate form of expression.

BlackMita

08-16-2008, 07:28 PM

I consider Graffiti to be art... and sometimes vandalism. I've never done it myself, but some of my doodles wouldn't look too out of place spray painted on a wall. Never been blown away by anything in my neighborhood, but something like this ( To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ) would definitely rank impressive... especially if they managed it illegally (you can't just "hit and run" a rendering of that caliber, would had to have planned it, collaborated with others if time was short, etc).

But it has to be more than a signature for me to enjoy it. This ( To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ) is just boring; a flaunting symbol that just says "I did something here I shouldn't have!". And where its painted is important too; on a grave its distasteful vs. serving eye candy to commuters on a subway line.

ElstonGunn

08-16-2008, 09:02 PM

If it's not art, what is it? Math? Music?

But I use a broad definition of the word "art." Pretty much anything that involves deciding how to use things like colors and forms toward a subjective end qualifies as art in my mind. Art doesn't necessarily have to be good, interesting, pretty, or in this case, legal.

aok

08-22-2008, 03:47 PM

Vandalism or not....its still art in my opinion. But, I also think tagging is an art. Then again, I'm a former vandal/tagger. I don't see how grafitti couldn't be art. But, I can't think of anything that I wouldn't consider art.

I think graffitti is great and it definitely enhances my experience riding the metro in new york.

vanidence

10-23-2008, 06:52 PM

I actually really like Graffities. There are some really good Artists out there that would make big, detailed, great Pictures with only a few Sprays. It's awesome.
I don't see it as Vandalism, unless Someone just took a simple black Can and sprayed his Name in normal Letters Somewhere. That's rather boring. ><

mur

08-16-2009, 01:19 PM

Dreamer (banned) writes:

No, not on public propriety (which I pay with my taxes), not on private property except your own.

If you want to paint a freaking graffiti, go buy your own building or wall.

Its part of graffitis that they are in public places and not some mural paintings to decorate one's backyard. I think graffitis belong to city culture.

Many of the graffitists are art students. and graffitis have made many people art students. is it arts? at least it has its own aesthetics and symbolic language. it has estabilished vocabulary and "scene". is it fine arts? it's not usually conceptual, but on the other hand, american paintings are pretty "stupid" in european fine arts sense too, but they're still considered fine arts but just different fine arts. graffitis may be political, too. Here in Helsinki some graffitists paint "FPS" tag which is the private security company that chases the graffiti painters and acts sometimes violent.

Helsinki area museum EMMA organised graffiti course for the elderly:

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here's 92 year old grandma painting graffitis :)

Takeru

08-16-2009, 01:25 PM

Like others, graffiti is art. Just need to know where to put them. If it is a building or a public area ... sure... if it is a private area where people sees that it is a nuisance to their building, than that is when things get a little bit closer to vandalism.

Shifter

08-17-2009, 01:09 AM

A lot of people say they like the good decorative graffiti but hate tags. The thing is that most great graffiti artists started out as a punk kid tagging random stuff with a permanent marker, and then gradually moved on to bigger, more elaborate pieces. So you can't really say "well lets keep the pretty graffiti but get rid of all the taggers" because today's taggers are tomorrows artists.

Personally there is some graffiti I like, and a lot I don't, but you've got to take the good with the bad because that's how it works. I do like stencils though.