Anyone playing Dota 2 beta? [Archive]

Necrosis

01-16-2012, 08:02 AM

On visual level, animation, style, also it seems less dynamic and more casual.

On the visual level, I agree it's more basic and relaxed than most games. It seems simplistic yet perfect. (For my eyes at least. :p ) Makes me feel like the original dark dota days.

Anyway I don't see anything new that wasn't introduced from LoL or HoN and it seems uglier than HoN. So probably I won't be playing it until they try to be ballsier with some new cool functionality

It's not trying to add anything new. Their whole idea is to bring back the original dota that the original dota players wanted. HoN, some can argue tried to do that (with improvements) but failed for numerous reasons. LoL being one of them.

LoL attempted to add new things to the genre. It worked by shifting their focus towards the casual player by making the game easier which opened it up to more people.

Dota 2 is in no way a casual game when compared to LoL. Dota heroes tend to have way less HP and higher scaled damage. You lose gold when you die. You can deny creeps. Larger map. More "Dark" spots on the map for more ganks.

Overall I think players who started on Dota will feel pulled towards Dota 2. Players who started on LoL will probably not like Dota 2. And players who want new features and gameplay will probably stay on LoL.

Just my .02c

---------- Post added 01-16-2012 at 08:04 AM ----------

I'd like to try it, but haven't signed up for the beta :/

On a side note, I wonder just how much the support amount will differ. Riot really has their heart and soul poured into LoL -- Will DoTA 2 feel just like another serial-production game?

I think Dota will have enough support since it is being backed by steam. Riot's staff really cares about their community. But they are a small company and you can easily see that they have trouble staffing enough people to keep up with the demands of their community.

Timeless

01-16-2012, 08:08 AM

I play the beta sometimes.

I think the art style is amazing and the gameplay is a nice change of pace from LoL. Never played the original dota.

Not really a big fan of the game but it is fun.

Grimace

01-16-2012, 11:06 AM

I've played like 7 years of dota, so almost since the beginning, and obviously it's very strange to play a different yet SIMILAR game, but the differences in visual presentation really threw me for a loop.

I think after a few weeks the pattern recognition will start triggering and I'll stop looking in the D1 location for my HP in the D2 hud and then realizing I'm dead.

Can't wait for more heroes to be ported. Some of the spell animations are pretty impressive, and obviously its nice not being on the extremely limited battle.net platform.

But yeah, I like.

Never played HON or LOL, but I'm a classic loyalist, and have been known to shit talk them as much as they shit talk dota. :D:D:

Also, I think ICEFROG has proven himself a very dedicated steward of the dialogue between community and designer , and that the dota2 feel still has that sense of lines of communication between valve and the community, such that thing are constantly being reigned in.

Quito

01-17-2012, 05:36 AM

I've had the beta well over a month now and frankly the art style initially disgusted me, but it really does grow on you, as well as the feel of the game.

The major difference between DoTA2 and LoL or HoN is the metagame. In HoN you aim to finish the game quicker, and you do that with pushing and ganking heroes (Torturer [who is a modification of Leshrac] for example). In DoTA, because of the way neutral stacking, assist gold, and Roshan work you generally have the focus more on your carries. Supports don't get gold for assists, Roshan is marginally weaker than HoN's Kongor so you have more Aegis' being in the game, there's no limit on buybacks (this contributes heavily) and there's no limit on the amount of times you can stack a camp. So you have carries able to make money faster and the game generally revolves around them more. This means games have a higher chance of being longer, but that doesn't mean they always will be longer. Most of my games end around the 35 minute mark. The heroes themselves also contribute to this. You compare how Dark Void scales into lategame compared to Chronos and you'll find Void destroys Chronos in the lategame.

Also, this is Valve and Icefrog. I'm not suggesting Icefrog is some sort of guru of game balance, but he's been working with the game for a while and he's teamed up with one of the biggest game companies. So they've got experience and a shit tonne of money backing this game up. To my understanding it seems like the initial goal is to try and recreate DoTA as it was, and then move forward with new developments in the game from there. Just as DoTA went through metagame phases I expect this game to do the same during retail, but not during the beta season.

As a HoN player who participated in the closed beta of the game and never played the first DoTA, this game is seriously looking like it's gonna be a success in my eyes. I also find myself playing it more than HoN (in fact I haven't played HoN for ~2 months). It was a really great game in the beginning, but S2 can't handle their current community size.

I never played LoL so I can't comment on that.

There we go. Wall of text done.
tl;dr DoTA 2 can't fail because of the people backing it and it attracts the DoTA1 fanbase.

babsa

01-17-2012, 02:43 PM

I like HoN's metagame more, if Quito's assessment of the metagame of Dota2 is accurate. Screw long games with a focus on carries, i would rather play a game with a focus on more intense fights earlier on in the game, as opposed to a grind to the top.

IreOfDesire

01-19-2012, 04:51 AM

Necrosis

01-19-2012, 05:24 AM

I still fail to understand why these people are afraid to make some changes to these games and still keep the genre style. Why shouldn't there be 6v6 games (1v1 in lane and wooding is quite boring)? Why don't they make other maps or at least heavier map changes? Add stationary teleports, new creeps, megacreeps, experiment a bit ffs...
All they do is add new heroes, items and skills which could be quite fun and ingenious but still the games are lacking significant improvements.

Because it's not that simple as just making a map larger. It took years for Dota to become as balanced as it is. LoL made new maps and look at the results. It's great and first, and then people shift back to the main map. Pretty much any change you make, can break all the heroes.

The beauty of DotA, is that it is largely well balanced. When you look at LoL, realistically, it's broken in a lot of respects. They add new heroes all the time which continue to make the original heroes more and more useless. Eventually over time they will find that balance which makes their game work. But right now, it's not completely there. You look at the new map they created, and lots of heroes are extremely broken for it. But what can they do? If they alter the heroes for the new map, then they break the original map.

If they decide to experiment with stuff like that, I'm sure it will be well after the game is already released and working.

Also, not everyone wants improvements like that. I for one am 100% fine with DotA staying completely as it is. I think the game was perfect. All of my friends who played DotA originally are also completely ok with the idea of re-creating the game they already loved to play. If I want something new or different, I'll play LoL instead.

Just a note - I'm not trying to discount your opinion or anything. I'm perfectly ok with people wanting something new and not liking Dota because it doesn't introduce that aspect. Just trying to present their side of why they are doing what they are doing.

IreOfDesire

01-19-2012, 07:01 AM

...
I agree that they should be quite careful after each change rearrange balance to reflect the new changes. I don't claim it's easy, I claim that's not impossible.

For example look at the masters of balance Blizzard. Yes it took a long fucking time to balance everything perfectly but they pretty much managed to achieve the transition from SC1 to SC2 quite well providing significant improvements without the cost of loosing balance and even the race play-style is the same.

Dota can be played pretty well with 4v4 and 3v3s why then it can't be done with 6v6?
Most gamers are generally conservative, ok granted - make the huge changes one step at the time.
3 different games made by 3 different studios without any real diversity, there is no excuse for such stagnation!

Note: As an INTJ I'm infuriated to see such wasted potential.
I'm generally pissed off by the monotony of new games nowadays. We only see slow and steady evolution of the genres rarely real revolutions that can spawn entirely new genre.

Tentaki

01-19-2012, 08:08 AM

I used to play a lot of the original DotA, then I played a ton of LoL and then played some of the Dota 2 beta when I got in.

The long story short is I think I'll stick with LoL. My main complaint about Dota 2 is that it has so many weird rules that have been grandfathered in, having to do with jungling (Lord I hate Chen), denying creeps, randomized damage, not being able to see your opponent's mana bar, etc. etc. It's like they were hungry and went through the refrigerator and made a random dish from what they had available that somehow ended up making it work very, very well, but then refuse to change anything about the dish (such as getting fresher ingredients or adding in a spice they didn't have before).

LoL just seems much more focused on what it wants to do, which gets rid of a lot of the variants (for better or for worse) and seems to go with the principle of addition by subtraction as far as how the game is played. And it appeals to me more.

The Dota community are also raging fanboys, any change towards a more advanced engine and adding things that couldn't previously be added is like dumping a bowl of chili into an angry volcano. LoL's community isn't that much better, but it's still not as bad. I also think that "Dota 2" isn't the right name for the game and they should have instead called it "Dota 2012" since it's just basically a new edition of the same game and falls more in line with a "new" football game like Madden.

Necrosis

01-19-2012, 08:23 AM

I agree that they should be quite careful after each change rearrange balance to reflect the new changes. I don't claim it's easy, I claim that's not impossible.

For example look at the masters of balance Blizzard. Yes it took a long fucking time to balance everything perfectly but they pretty much managed to achieve the transition from SC1 to SC2 quite well providing significant improvements without the cost of loosing balance and even the race play-style is the same.

Dota can be played pretty well with 4v4 and 3v3s why then it can't be done with 6v6?
Most gamers are generally conservative, ok granted - make the huge changes one step at the time.
3 different games made by 3 different studios without any real diversity, there is no excuse for such stagnation!

Note: As an INTJ I'm infuriated to see such wasted potential.
I'm generally pissed off by the monotony of new games nowadays. We only see slow and steady evolution of the genres rarely real revolutions that can spawn entirely new genre.

Fair point.

---------- Post added 01-19-2012 at 08:28 AM ----------

I used to play a lot of the original DotA, then I played a ton of LoL and then played some of the Dota 2 beta when I got in.

The long story short is I think I'll stick with LoL. My main complaint about Dota 2 is that it has so many weird rules that have been grandfathered in, having to do with jungling (Lord I hate Chen), denying creeps, randomized damage, not being able to see your opponent's mana bar, etc. etc. It's like they were hungry and went through the refrigerator and made a random dish from what they had available that somehow ended up making it work very, very well, but then refuse to change anything about the dish (such as getting fresher ingredients or adding in a spice they didn't have before).

What? Grandfathered in? It's part of the game. Denying is an important aspect of Dota. It goes with losing gold when you die. Randomized damage? ugh... LoL has crit chance. There is nothing more random than a crit.

LoL just seems much more focused on what it wants to do, which gets rid of a lot of the variants (for better or for worse) and seems to go with the principle of addition by subtraction as far as how the game is played. And it appeals to me more.

The reason LoL subtracted things is because they are marketing toward a more general audience. An average casual gamer. They made the game more casual. Thus the reduction of denying, a smaller map, and the introduction of summoner skills. They have stated this plenty of times before.

The Dota community are also raging fanboys, any change towards a more advanced engine and adding things that couldn't previously be added is like dumping a bowl of chili into an angry volcano. LoL's community isn't that much better, but it's still not as bad. I also think that "Dota 2" isn't the right name for the game and they should have instead called it "Dota 2012" since it's just basically a new edition of the same game and falls more in line with a "new" football game like Madden.

This is true of all communities. People rage like mad in ranked games in LoL. Because LoL attracts the casual gamer, you get people who could just care less about the game and just play for shits and giggles. I've played with plenty of trolls.

As for the naming, it's more a marketing standpoint than anything. Calling something DotA2 will make peoples eyes go :idea: more than anything.

Chosen

01-19-2012, 08:45 AM

I still prefer HoN. Dota2 is just slower paced - can't get my "rush".
HoN players say Dota2 graphics are worse, Dota2 players say the opposite and LoL players.. yeah - why they even compare that game? Anyhow.. I'm totally neutral on the graphics/animations part. I don't give a **** about cash shops either.

tl;dr - Dota2 will be the most successful/populated.
LoL will stand on it's own - due to great marketing and casual gameplay, perfect for children.
HoN will have only the old dota vet-tryhards. But you know.. I like that atmosphere. It might not even become 1/10 of the size their competitors are(due to non existant marketing) but it's a good game with a very specific market group.

On another side.. just because millions of people listen to Justin Bieber and Lil Wayne doesn't mean they are better than Faithless and Chamillionaire. It's just that masses follow crap and the society is stupified.

/Yes this post was bias, but I think I made a point or two.
/Yes I've tried LoL/Dota2

PS! Icefrog was involved in HoN development. Just sayin'.

Tentaki

01-19-2012, 08:53 AM

Fair point.
What? Grandfathered in? It's part of the game. Denying is an important aspect of Dota. It goes with losing gold when you die. Randomized damage? ugh... LoL has crit chance. There is nothing more random than a crit.

Seeing an opponent's mana bar wasn't something you could do in the W3 engine and in Dota 2 they made a conscious design decision to keep it that way. There was no reason for them to keep this aspect in other than "it's always been this way". I hate that reasoning. If you can improve something, do it.

I've often been told that denying creeps was part of DotA because there was no way for the W3 engine to stop you from killing an allied unit, though I can't find anything specific currently to back that up.

LoL's got it's random aspects too, but they're looking to minimize it when possible (note the recent trend to get rid of dodge, another random chance mechanic). I think they would have avoided adding crits in if they redesigned the game from scratch.

Necrosis

01-19-2012, 09:10 AM

Seeing an opponent's mana bar wasn't something you could do in the W3 engine and in Dota 2 they made a conscious design decision to keep it that way. There was no reason for them to keep this aspect in other than "it's always been this way". I hate that reasoning. If you can improve something, do it.

I've often been told that denying creeps was part of DotA because there was no way for the W3 engine to stop you from killing an allied unit, though I can't find anything specific currently to back that up.

LoL's got it's random aspects too, but they're looking to minimize it when possible (note the recent trend to get rid of dodge, another random chance mechanic). I think they would have avoided adding crits in if they redesigned the game from scratch.

Ok for the mana bar. Bad reasoning sure. Can't disagree with you there. I'm sure someone can argue that seeing a mana bar isn't 100% an improvement. I don't think I can argue that.

Hmm if that is true about the denying that is very interesting. Though I think most players would say it is (or became) an integral part of the DotA mechanic.

Yup I can see LoL looking into removing something like crit. Dodge was simple, it only broke Jax. Crit breaks a numerous amount of champions for them.

I was joking with some friends last week that every hero that comes out has some kind of stun/flash/slow combo. The new hero comes out and has all 3. I can't count how many heroes they released recently that have some kind of flash mechanic. It's frustrating.

---------- Post added 01-19-2012 at 09:14 AM ----------

LoL will stand on it's own - due to great marketing and casual gameplay, perfect for children.

I LoL'ed.

Quito

01-20-2012, 09:17 AM

HoN will have only the old dota vet-tryhards. But you know.. I like that atmosphere. It might not even become 1/10 of the size their competitors are(due to non existant marketing) but it's a good game with a very specific market group.

/Yes this post was bias, but I think I made a point or two.
/Yes I've tried LoL/Dota2

PS! Icefrog was involved in HoN development. Just sayin'.

I too would play HoN if S2 would clean up their act and stop trying to shell out constant, new heroes and move away from this "carry by tanking" play style that is most prominent in Ra and Zephyr. It is very much still a totally salvageable game, S2 just needs to drop this "appeal to casual players" mindset and start doing incremental balance. Currently they hold the smallest casual player base (as well as overall) and their retarded concept of "LETS BALANCE ALL THE HEROES IN ONE SUPER PATCH" is just driving their fanbase away.

babsa

01-20-2012, 10:37 PM

I am getting pretty tired of the carry tanks as well Quito. I am also pretty unimpressed by the last two intel heroes they added, they are not support heroes at all. The main issue they face is how they can get enough revenue to support their servers, and i don't think they can do that by just focusing on the hardcore fanbase. Prior to going F2P, they averaged about 30k users a night, now they get 60k (iirc). I have probably spent about $50 on that game for unlockable content because it is nice to support them - sometimes i feel like one of the very few people that actually like S2.

Chosen

01-22-2012, 04:01 PM

babsa

01-22-2012, 07:27 PM

Empath and Monarch are hard core supports. New intel heroes. Wouldn't make sense if Artesia and Gravekeeper woulda been supports too.. Not every intel is a support.

Well, i never said that intel HAD to be support heroes, but support heroes happen to be my favorite to play, so of course i would be unimpressed with the new heroes. I didn't really care for monarch, but i have played a mean empath since they came out with her.

Grimace

01-23-2012, 09:56 AM

LOL people, you already have a gigantic thread discussing the more frustrating aspects of your game's blance/design. This is DOTA 2 related, and perhaps we can get nostalgic about dota 1, but that is all.

Kunkas torrent in D2 looks brilliant, and with his.73 buffs, people will stop overlooking him. However people need to stop playing him as a carry, and focus on his casting early game; in essence they need to go the chinese style of 2 levels of XMTS with torrent at just lvl 1, so as to have automatic torrent boat cleave combos whenever your ult is cd'ed. For this you need arcane boots. After that you can go lothars/van w/e but arcane solves alot of his problems.

Necrosis

01-23-2012, 10:23 AM

IreOfDesire

01-24-2012, 04:30 AM

Now I saw that Blizzard also want a piece of the pie by bringing in their own Blizzard Dota and from what I saw, this will bring the forward movement I craved for in this genre.

New stuff:
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Zethariel

01-24-2012, 07:17 AM

In the early days, DotA drove me away due to the hardcore gamers always kicking me out for being new to the map (newer really had a chance to play =.=)

LoL was something nice, easy to learn with a comprehensible tutorial and AI mode, with which I spent most of my play time (switched to players only recently)

DotA 2 I'll try for shits and giggles, just to compare to LoL.

I believe that showing as much info about your enemies (visible buffs, mana bars, eradication of randomness) makes the game easier to calculate, and more cold logic driven than crazy micromanagment skills and good connection. In that way, LoL appeals to me -- I can spend some time to analyze the equipment of my foes, and be sure I can win or loose an encounter. Maybe it is slower by comparison to otehr games, but requires more mental agility and planning due to the slower gameplay.

Necrosis

01-24-2012, 10:21 AM

Dota always attracted me because of the various game modes.

Single Draft was awesome. So was being forced to play a new random hero every time you die. Really helps you learn about the other heroes in the game.

I like not being able to see mana bars. Makes it like poker. Call my bluff :laugh:

Chosen

02-09-2012, 01:29 AM

HoN is going to stomp it IF/WHEN they add a map editor/custom maps.
There has been sights of the map editor, so ...

Cygnus

02-12-2012, 07:41 PM

Just as a friendly heads up...DOTA 2 has run into complications...

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the long and the short...

"According to a pair of legal filings, it appears that Blizzard is suing Valve to prevent it from trademarking the DOTA name. Blizzard claims that the DOTA name has been closely aligned with the Warcraft series for the past seven years. Defense of the Ancients was originally created as a mod for Warcraft III."

SShack

02-12-2012, 08:19 PM

It's interesting that Blizzard isn't actually trying to block the game so much as preventing the trademarking of the name.

I think they kind of expected this. Haven't the appearances of some of the champions in DOTA2 been changed so that they no longer look like Warcraft units/heroes?

They ultimately may end up having to change the name of the game.

I wouldn't want to be the judge for this one. It's complicated.

Cygnus

02-12-2012, 09:24 PM

Tahiti

02-14-2012, 05:49 AM

I've had my key for a while :D

Necrosis

02-14-2012, 11:52 AM

It is a bit complicated SShack, though on the surface I am thinking Value has the stronger case. Blizzard technically is not associated with DOTA in a legal way, or was not, but stuff is happening reactionary behind the scene to make it appear differently. It looks like no one really went ahead and trademarked DOTA at the time...then Value went ahead and trademarked DOTA2 and DOTA3. Anything Blizzard and Riot Games did after the fact of Value originally filing for trademark...is reactionary.

It's just kind of all funny how it's all happening. Blizzard pretty much ignored the mod up until the point they realized there is shit ton of money just in the name. Interesting to see how this all unfolds.

I thought I remembered reading a few years ago that Valve had gathered the rights to DOTA but not defense of the ancients.

SShack

02-14-2012, 12:49 PM

It's just kind of all funny how it's all happening. Blizzard pretty much ignored the mod up until the point they realized there is shit ton of money just in the name. Interesting to see how this all unfolds.

I thought I remembered reading a few years ago that Valve had gathered the rights to DOTA but not defense of the ancients.

But the weird thing is ... Blizzard is putting DOTA in as a casual game mode in the next "Starcraft II" expansion. Blizzard itself doesn't seem to want to be making any money off this.

I am wondering, speculating about the nature of the relationship between Blizzard and Riot Games. Apparently it was Riot Games that had gotten the rights to "DOTA-Allstars" and gave it to Blizzard, according to that story.

Could Blizzard be doing this to potentially block Valve from causing any troubles for Riot if they trademarked the DOTA name? I don't see how it could, given that they made completely new heroes for "League of Legends."

Alternatively, they're looking for a precedent to establish ownership/trademarks of other mods of their game so that this doesn't happen again in the future. (Edit: What with the nature of trademark laws, perhaps they're afraid that if they don't fight for the rights to DOTA, it will come back to haunt them with other mods)

Necrosis

02-15-2012, 04:22 AM

But the weird thing is ... Blizzard is putting DOTA in as a casual game mode in the next "Starcraft II" expansion. Blizzard itself doesn't seem to want to be making any money off this.

I am wondering, speculating about the nature of the relationship between Blizzard and Riot Games. Apparently it was Riot Games that had gotten the rights to "DOTA-Allstars" and gave it to Blizzard, according to that story.

Could Blizzard be doing this to potentially block Valve from causing any troubles for Riot if they trademarked the DOTA name? I don't see how it could, given that they made completely new heroes for "League of Legends."

Alternatively, they're looking for a precedent to establish ownership/trademarks of other mods of their game so that this doesn't happen again in the future. (Edit: What with the nature of trademark laws, perhaps they're afraid that if they don't fight for the rights to DOTA, it will come back to haunt them with other mods)

If Riot really had the rights to DOTA-All stars than all of this is a dead b/c Valve would be instantly sued and have to drop the name. That's where I'm starting to think they don't really have full rights somehow. If they did and they sold it to Blizzard, then there must be something going on between the two of them like you said.

Even though Riot made LoL with new heroes etc, they know that having a game called Dota 2 out will potentially push some of their clients away from their own game. Their just trying to own the market.

All this politics stuff really sucks. I hope it doesn't cause the game to be delayed.

Grimace

03-01-2012, 07:58 PM

I already play with friends etc, but always looking for skilled-ish people to play with if you have been blessed with a beta key :)

Necrosis

03-01-2012, 08:27 PM

Got my key couple weeks. Have only been playing bots since its been a good 2 years since Dota.

Feel free to add me. _necrosys_

Grimace

03-02-2012, 04:29 PM

kk

Yeah, about the meta games; obviously as a someone who's only played dota, I'm dubious of the remakes; dota just feels like it has crazy depth to me;

like the dota pros are so smart: something Navi did recently really impressed me: they were radiant and had furion (played by puppey) who skilled his tree summon at lvl 1 (not normally done); he was going to lane top (which from radiant is like dangerous against a typical duel lane with jungle support; ie. the inverse of the bot lane dynamics of same) and he took the trees and snuck them around behind the t1 tower of Dire and walked them into the first wave of creeps; then dragged it all the way back to the dire T2 tower, until it practically met the second wave of creeps. He did this not to push, but so that the double wave would quickly kill his sides single wave and push the creep equilibrium very close to his tower so he could safely farm. Made me smile.

Necrosis

03-02-2012, 07:36 PM

Uriel

03-02-2012, 08:08 PM

Are Keys still being given out? :(

Necrosis

03-02-2012, 08:21 PM

Are Keys still being given out? :(

Yes. I didn't get mine till 2 weeks ago. I had to play on my cousins account -_-. Just sign up on the dota page on steam. You may still get one.

Melchizedek

03-02-2012, 08:59 PM

I think Blizzard's suit is a defensive one. If they simply let Valve trademark the DOTA acronym, that means Valve will actually be able to sue them over Blizzard DOTA.

I got an invite to the beta a while ago. I played one game with bots and then decided it was too frustrating and different to bother with after I sat there, dead, and watched minions destroy the Ancient while bots entirely ignored it.

Tonight I decided to give it another try, and while there are still some thinks that make me scratch my head, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Playing with other players was much better.

Grimace

03-03-2012, 01:57 AM

Is there a youtube link of this?

I think it's the second game

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honestly, if you want to get better at dota/dota2, DC is the website for you. Their commentators know their shit and are funny/entertaining at the same time.

Great site and casting crew. They cast dota also.

That series is friggin great; Navi showing why they are probably the best in the world.

China is arguably (I think) probably the best dota1, but they haven't quite adapted as the europeans (and here, also, the americans/canadians of col) to dota2 which has enough differences that it has caused them some difficulty in their dominance; it's hard to say how it will pan out as more chinese teams switch.

---------- Post added 03-03-2012 at 01:58 AM ----------

Also, I would never recommend playing with bots; that will be unlikely to teach you much other than the basics.

Necrosis

03-03-2012, 06:54 AM

Also, I would never recommend playing with bots; that will be unlikely to teach you much other than the basics.

Eh it's only so I could remember where all the damn items where :p Didn't want to jump into a game and be like shit where is point booster again lol.

Grimace

03-03-2012, 06:42 PM

Eh it's only so I could remember where all the damn items where :p Didn't want to jump into a game and be like shit where is point booster again lol.

actually yeah, that's true

the items, heroes, general animation differences took me quite a while to get used to.

Had to kind of relearn all the heroes i'd liked most from dota that required any kinda of animation-spatial awareness : sf, tiny, potm, pudge. I really like non targetable extremely strong spells :D

but after my initial "uh, this is weird and different" stage, I fucking love the game; it's so good.

It would be like if nintendo had simply remade ssbm with better graphics and support without changing the mechanics.

but I'm like an oldschool dota player. Played since like 2003 IIRC. Shit has changed plenty over the years.

my current tag is elk.hamsterdam

lololol, me and my buddies were trying to teach their LoL playing friend how to play dota, and he didn't fathom that you had to click on people to cast spells on them; I facepalmed; then he told me that is how LoL works; so I facepalmed again.

Melchizedek

03-03-2012, 09:23 PM

Grimace

03-03-2012, 10:16 PM

Your friend was probably making an excuse so he wouldn't sound dumb. You have to click on people to cast spells on them.

Today I figured out that you have to press a to deny, which is a nice change of pace after trying to right click on my creeps to kill them. Woo! So excited about these leftover ancient mechanics!

no, he said you just hover your pointer over them and press the spell button; which is facepalm worthy nub-friendlyness imo. You don't have to target and click.

Necrosis

03-04-2012, 12:41 PM

Your friend was probably making an excuse so he wouldn't sound dumb. You have to click on people to cast spells on them.

Today I figured out that you have to press a to deny, which is a nice change of pace after trying to right click on my creeps to kill them. Woo! So excited about these leftover ancient mechanics!

What is even crazier is that you can deny a kill as well. That's right... you can kill your own teammate on purpose to deny gold. :-D I love it when tiny does it.

Melchizedek

03-04-2012, 01:41 PM

no, he said you just hover your pointer over them and press the spell button; which is facepalm worthy nub-friendlyness imo. You don't have to target and click.

There are certain abilities that immediately take place and go in the direction of the cursor, yes, but those are the exception. They're the ones that are either very directional or very local. It's actually good design to remove such extraneous steps in casting a spell.

What is even crazier is that you can deny a kill as well. That's right... you can kill your own teammate on purpose to deny gold. :-D I love it when tiny does it.

I've heard about that, though I have yet to do it or witness it. I hear there's even a character that can kill himself for a deny.

Necrosis

03-04-2012, 03:54 PM

I've heard about that, though I have yet to do it or witness it. I hear there's even a character that can kill himself for a deny.

First one off the top of my head is pudge. Blitzcrank is LoL's version of pudge. Pudge basically can use Rot which uses HP and kill himself. It's kind of funny/annoying.

Uriel

03-04-2012, 05:04 PM

Goblin Techies

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Land Mines: Plants an invisible mine that explodes when an enemy nears. The explosion deals less damage if the target is farther away. You may only have 20 mines placed at a time. From 300-600 damage each.

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Stasis Trap: Plants an invisible Stasis Trap that stuns nearby enemy units when detonated. From 3-6 second 450 AOE stun. It is the longest stun in the game, I believe.

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Suicide Squad Attack: Sacrifice yourself for the greater good. Deals massive area of effect damage. From 650-1550 (200 Full Damage / 500 Partial Damage AOE). Using this skill counts as a suicide, which does not give normal gold or experience to the enemy team. Though I wonder if you can suicide at an allied champion who is about to die.

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Remote Mine: Plants an invisible mine that will only activate when triggered. Doesn't damage buildings. Deals 600 damage when activated.

Video Tribute. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) And another (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Grimace

03-04-2012, 05:07 PM

There are certain abilities that immediately take place and go in the direction of the cursor, yes, but those are the exception. They're the ones that are either very directional or very local. It's actually good design to remove such extraneous steps in casting a spell.

I've heard about that, though I have yet to do it or witness it. I hear there's even a character that can kill himself for a deny.

quite a few characters can kill themselves under certain conditions if you play cleverly.

Is it also be "good design" to design every hero the same?

Melchizedek

03-04-2012, 06:03 PM

No, but that's another issue entirely, having to do with their specifically designing the game to be less passive.

Grimace

03-05-2012, 02:01 AM

No, but that's another issue entirely, having to do with their specifically designing the game to be less passive.

I just mean that people who have play both games a substantial amount (Which I doubt either you or me have) typically agree that dota is less noob friendly (also more rage prone), has a more complex meta game, a better overall balance; but that LoL has a easier learning curve; smoothed over gameplay, that is to say, literally smoother (like, units more responsive, (I'm trying to remember some of the comments the LoL players I was teaching to play dota said), just more direct responsiveness from units iirc) etc), but also simpler in that without all these things that have been "simplified," or as Lol players tend to say "better designed", there are less possible axes on which to set yourself apart as "better" and thus less of a skill curve.

things that add greater depth to dota imo: tower diving, town portals, chickens, more diversified heroes, less blink skills, less general scaling on all heroes to the late game (strategies have time reliant windows of opportunity without AD AP allowing all heroes to scale relatively well; if you miss your window; your picks will fail you), random jungle spawns, choke point jungling; general variability in jungle dynamics. Heroes have less hp, less mana, and do more dmg, thus errors are much more severely punished; if you fuck up, you simply melt under nukes, making map awareness and position crazy important. You can't spam spells in lane; you have to save them for the precise moment where they are optimally used. More variable lane set ups. More diversified heroes (even LoL players who hate dota admit this).

Also; how could a game introducing a new hero every week or two have balance? That's one of my biggest questions. If a new hero comes out in dota every few months, the metagame sometimes crumbles and needs to be reassembled from the debris; it's that sensitive.

but we're both biased and will likely never come to any consensus; the communities have huge animosity towards each other for the most part. Mostly I'm astounded by the sheer number of people who play LoL; that is certainly impressive; though I tend to believe it was more in their marketing campaign that used dota as a kind of punching bag prior to the development of dota 2 when there was a definite window for remakes much flashier than plain ol dota 1.

Necrosis

03-05-2012, 03:49 AM

The only thing that really bothers me are the LoL players who started in LoL. They try DOTA once and automatically claim it sucks, it's too hard and it's stupid. They fail to realize that without DOTA, there is no LoL. It's one thing to say a game is not your style and is difficult, it's another to completely dismiss it in one go. Just try to remember how it was when you first played LoL.

The reality is that LoL and DotA are just too completely different games meant for two completely different types of people. Casual vs hardcore gamers. Not to say you can't have a casual gamer in Dota or a hardcore gamer in LoL, just from a overall game and business standpoint, LoL's market is geared more towards a casual gamer.

Melchizedek

03-05-2012, 12:16 PM

things that add greater depth to dota imo: tower diving, town portals, chickens, more diversified heroes, less blink skills, less general scaling on all heroes to the late game (strategies have time reliant windows of opportunity without AD AP allowing all heroes to scale relatively well; if you miss your window; your picks will fail you), random jungle spawns, choke point jungling; general variability in jungle dynamics. Heroes have less hp, less mana, and do more dmg, thus errors are much more severely punished; if you fuck up, you simply melt under nukes, making map awareness and position crazy important. You can't spam spells in lane; you have to save them for the precise moment where they are optimally used. More variable lane set ups. More diversified heroes (even LoL players who hate dota admit this).

I'd certainly say that DotA is "deeper" in the sense that it has more axes, like you say, but there are several things that I have to disagree with. I find tower diving an enemy in LoL to have a much greater element of strategy than in DotA because the towers do a lot more damage, and they'll actually attack you if you attack a player under them. Map awareness is equally important in both games, and not all heroes scale relatively well. There are quite a few characters who start off quite strong, but are rather weak in the late game.

Also, I think the meta in LoL is limited more due to the rigidity of the players than the game itself.

Also; how could a game introducing a new hero every week or two have balance? That's one of my biggest questions. If a new hero comes out in dota every few months, the metagame sometimes crumbles and needs to be reassembled from the debris; it's that sensitive.

It's a fair question, and, honestly, I don't think they'll ever really be balanced. What I think they're doing (and I haven't read anyone say this, it's purely for my own optimistic view of their game design) is purposefully buffing and nerfing characters so that the tiers and meta-game are constantly being switched up. The game isn't balanced, but neither is DotA, honestly, and I actually like the idea of the tiers constantly being switched around. It keeps things fresh.

but we're both biased and will likely never come to any consensus; the communities have huge animosity towards each other for the most part. Mostly I'm astounded by the sheer number of people who play LoL; that is certainly impressive; though I tend to believe it was more in their marketing campaign that used dota as a kind of punching bag prior to the development of dota 2 when there was a definite window for remakes much flashier than plain ol dota 1.

I'm not biased. I like DotA. Several of the things you mentioned about it are true. It has more varied champions and whatnot. However, it also has quite a few limitations due to the WC3 engine, and DotA 2 still hasn't fixed quite a few of those anachronisms, which makes me wonder if DotA players just blindly cling to tradition.

I mostly think the animosity is due to DotA's misplaced elitism and claims that LoL is for "n00bs" and easy. The game is more accessible (which is the cause of it's success), there's no doubt about that. That's partially due to dumbing it down, and partially due to being able to design your own game from the ground up and design it better.

But that doesn't make it for "n00bs" or easier anymore than SFII is easy or for bad people just because there's now SFIV. It's a PvP game; the level of skill required is based on your opponent, not the game mechanics.

Necrosis

03-06-2012, 05:08 AM

I'd certainly say that DotA is "deeper" in the sense that it has more axes, like you say, but there are several things that I have to disagree with. I find tower diving an enemy in LoL to have a much greater element of strategy than in DotA because the towers do a lot more damage, and they'll actually attack you if you attack a player under them. Map awareness is equally important in both games, and not all heroes scale relatively well. There are quite a few characters who start off quite strong, but are rather weak in the late game.

Now sure how I feel about the tower diving. It can almost go both ways. You can die easier sometimes in LoL, but at the same time Dota towers have an entirely different mechanic. Not to mention you can dive at lower levels in DotA. Hmm.. have to think about that one.

I would completely agree map awareness is important in both games. But I think DotA emphasizes it a lot more. The map is way larger. There are more heroes that can randomly appear near you or around you. You can stealth a whole team. And the jungle is much larger. Also, entire teams can tp right around you.

Also, I think the meta in LoL is limited more due to the rigidity of the players than the game itself.

It's a fair question, and, honestly, I don't think they'll ever really be balanced. What I think they're doing (and I haven't read anyone say this, it's purely for my own optimistic view of their game design) is purposefully buffing and nerfing characters so that the tiers and meta-game are constantly being switched up. The game isn't balanced, but neither is DotA, honestly, and I actually like the idea of the tiers constantly being switched around. It keeps things fresh.

I'm glad you agree. I mentioned this in the LoL thread and nearly got hammered. How people can't see that is beyond me. It does look like Riot is purposely doing certain things to change up the game. They HAVE to. Their revenue stream is based upon different heroes being important so they can sell skins.

I'm not biased. I like DotA. Several of the things you mentioned about it are true. It has more varied champions and whatnot. However, it also has quite a few limitations due to the WC3 engine, and DotA 2 still hasn't fixed quite a few of those anachronisms, which makes me wonder if DotA players just blindly cling to tradition.

Well it is still in beta so some of the things that are quite buggy about it will be fixed over time. But a large part of the game is tradition. I personally wanted a 100%(Okay maybe 90) duplicate of DotA with only improvements in game play. So I'm happy with DotA 2.

I mostly think the animosity is due to DotA's misplaced elitism and claims that LoL is for "n00bs" and easy. The game is more accessible (which is the cause of it's success), there's no doubt about that. That's partially due to dumbing it down, and partially due to being able to design your own game from the ground up and design it better.

But that doesn't make it for "n00bs" or easier anymore than SFII is easy or for bad people just because there's now SFIV. It's a PvP game; the level of skill required is based on your opponent, not the game mechanics.

I agree. Especially with some people here who state they are surprised INTJ's play LoL. I for one am not. I enjoyed LoL. There is still strategy involved. A high level tournament is difficult no matter what the game is. They are just two different games. I enjoy them both in their own way.

Melchizedek

03-06-2012, 03:31 PM

Well it is still in beta so some of the things that are quite buggy about it will be fixed over time. But a large part of the game is tradition. I personally wanted a 100%(Okay maybe 90) duplicate of DotA with only improvements in game play. So I'm happy with DotA 2.

I'm not unhappy with DotA 2. The fact that they haven't changed some obvious things, though, just makes me shake my head. Someone mentioned mana bars, for example. A surrender option is also a no brainer. I was just in a game where the score was something like 7-40, Zeus had just totally snowballed, and whenever it looked like they had him, I popped out (I was Riki, so I was usually ready for a gank) and helped Zeus finish them. All the other team could do was ask for us to please push quickly. It would have saved everyone some time if they could have just surrendered.

Necrosis

03-06-2012, 06:27 PM

I'm not unhappy with DotA 2. The fact that they haven't changed some obvious things, though, just makes me shake my head. Someone mentioned mana bars, for example. A surrender option is also a no brainer. I was just in a game where the score was something like 7-40, Zeus had just totally snowballed, and whenever it looked like they had him, I popped out (I was Riki, so I was usually ready for a gank) and helped Zeus finish them. All the other team could do was ask for us to please push quickly. It would have saved everyone some time if they could have just surrendered.

I personally agree with no mana bars. It's a big mechanic in DotA where mana is hard to come by. But there are tons of threads arguing for and against it. I do believe this was intentional and not just a direct copy of Dota 1. You could always argue if WC3 had mana bars then we would have mana bars all along. But it is what it is :p

Not having surrender is just bad. I would hope they add that in at least some of the game types.

Melchizedek

03-06-2012, 06:34 PM

If you couldn't see your opponent's mana at all, then you could argue that it's a feature. But since you actually can see his mana, you just have to click on him, it's really just an inconvenience.

Necrosis

03-07-2012, 04:48 AM

If you couldn't see your opponent's mana at all, then you could argue that it's a feature. But since you actually can see his mana, you just have to click on him, it's really just an inconvenience.

But inconvenience is a matter of opinion right? One could argue that it's strategy. Take for example flash in LoL. After a player uses it, in high level play they mark the time until it's back up. If they made it so you could see when flash is down by clicking the player it would be easier. But it's part of the strategy of the game.

I think you can argue endlessly on it. And you could make tons of fair points. My point is that the designers did this intentionally and I don't think it was just b/c "that was the way dota 1 was".

Melchizedek

03-07-2012, 10:11 AM

Necrosis

03-07-2012, 12:46 PM

That's what I'm saying, though. If you couldn't actually see their mana, then you'd just have to make an educated guess. That could be conveyed as strategy However, if you click on your opponent, you can see how much mana he has. So, no, not really a matter of opinion here. It's not another layer of strategy, just a less convenient (i.e. inconvenient) method looking at your opponent's mana.

I don't think I wrote my situation as clear as I wanted and it supported you hahaha. Grrr...

I see what your saying and can understand what you mean. Your view is exactly why there is so much controversy around it. One could argue it's the same as item indicators. You could click a player to see his item AND there is a visible indication by something around his character. Remove the visible indication and you are forced to click him. So yea, what you are saying makes total sense.

But personally i still disagree. I think by them intentionally not adding it, they feel, as do I, that there is some level of strategy involved more than just annoyingly having to click someone.

Take for example this... Say I have a fully stacked magic stick or a bottled regeneration rune. You see me in the hills, 50 hp and I am lion. You know I can burst you even at 50 hp but b/c you can't see my mana bar you first back off. Then you click me, see I have enough mana for one move so you go in knowing I can't kill you that mana. Immediately after you click me, I activate my regeneration rune/magic stick and now I have enough mana for 3 nukes. You go in and you die.

If you could see my mana bar the whole time, you would notice me regen as you moved in and would had enough time to back out.

It's a whole different level of game play by forcing you to make a decision based on my character and items. I just feel as though mana is a different animal when compared to all the other stats/items in the game.

Melchizedek

03-07-2012, 02:14 PM

That can certainly make for some interesting scenarios, but if you can apply that to mana, why not also apply it to health?

Grimace

03-07-2012, 06:14 PM

yeah, lots of the "annoying" things in dota actually provide some really cool options for mindgames and baiting. Baiting is just huge in the pro scene. Even things like dying on purpose when at zero mana because walking back to fountain takes a few less seconds than dying and instantly buying back; these types of counter intuitive tactical choices are like candy for my mind, or for an INTJ in general I would assume :D

Necrosis

03-08-2012, 04:42 AM

That can certainly make for some interesting scenarios, but if you can apply that to mana, why not also apply it to health?

You certainly can apply it to health as well. But the scenario isn't quite as powerful. Mana is offensive were as health is purely informational. I would understand if they applied it there as well but it does make more sense to make it mana only.

Overture

04-01-2012, 06:01 PM

Dota 2 is awesome. I started out on HoN, tried LoL and now I'm testing out Dota 2. It really is a great game, I love the day/night cycle. You'll be laning and suddenly everything goes darker and you hear the ambient background noise of crickets, it seems to have a lot more consideration for pathetic fallacy.

I also like the heroes, for the most part, I see a lot of ports from HoN which were ported from Dota in the first place I guess. I love the interface and the integration it has with Steam is amazing because I use it as one of my default instant messengers. If anyone has it already and wants to play they should pm me.

Tahiti

04-01-2012, 06:18 PM

Overture

04-01-2012, 06:22 PM

My MMR isn't great. I think it's about 1500-1600. I'm an average player, but I'm starting fresh with Dota 2. Hopefully they won't make it free to play and allow all the twelve year old casuals and Brazilians to play.

Tahiti

04-01-2012, 06:25 PM

Overture

04-01-2012, 06:26 PM

I just hate the unresponsiveness of the immigrants on video games lol.

Uriel

04-01-2012, 06:28 PM

I noticed some lag going on when I pick the hero initially, and when the game ends. Is it just me or is it the game itself?

PS: What's wrong with Brazilians?

Overture

04-01-2012, 06:30 PM

Hmmm, can't say I've had the same issue. Also I don't have anything wrong with Brazilians specifically, just using them as an example.

Tahiti

04-01-2012, 06:30 PM

I noticed some lag going on when I pick the hero initially, and when the game ends. Is it just me or is it the game itself?

PS: What's wrong with Brazilians?

that's a part of Valve's source engine, I'm not even sure if they can fix it. It happens with all their games. It's an unfixable property of how their game engine loads data.

And Brazilians are mostly just tooooooo far behind in how to play the game. They should have their own servers until they catch up.

It's like forcing a pro race car driver to drive a car with 2 steering wheels. The other steering wheel is someone just learning to get their license. Understand now? :p

Uriel

04-01-2012, 06:33 PM

Yes, thank you.

Can't wait for Lanaya and Techies to come out. Using Broodmother at the moment.

Tahiti

04-01-2012, 06:37 PM

I'm in love with invoker. QUAS WEX QUAS.

Uriel

04-01-2012, 06:39 PM

I'm in love with invoker. QUAS WEX QUAS.

He's a hyper skills type character. His sunstrike is awesome!

He and Meepo are -I believe- the characters with the highest skillcap. Agree/Disagree?

Overture

04-01-2012, 06:42 PM

I love queen of pain. Always loved wretched hag on HoN too.

Tahiti

04-01-2012, 06:42 PM

He's a hyper skills type character. His sunstrike is awesome!

He and Meepo are -I believe- the characters with the highest skillcap. Agree/Disagree?

Yea they do have the highest skillcaps. Invokers mostly memory and reflex while Meepo is reflex and micro. They both tap into diff areas of the brain.

Wouldn't that be fun? measuring the brain when using Meepo and then Invoker.

In Heroes of Newerth 'Monkey King' is "that" hero.

Uriel

04-01-2012, 10:06 PM

I'm still trying to get used to the item system and the hotkeys. I had gotten used to the old system where you can assign one shopkeeper out of about 5 as a control group, then click on the specific hotkey aligned with the item of your choice. I guess I liked the mnemonic hotkey from the previous version as opposed to the numeric hotkey system being utilized now, because the mnemonic system was easier to memorize as opposed to the numeric one.

My issues:

-difficult to A + right-click at an enemy

-still trying to get used to the non-cartoony look of the game. I can't seem to find my hero against the background, because of the color intensity and contrasts against the background. It was much easier to do so with the cartoony look, because the characters had outlines.

-Broodmother auto attacks and winds up charging towers. When I disable auto attack, she would just stand there and do nothing, which is great, but it gets a bit stupid when she is being attacked and she ...does nothing. I have to either A + right click or right click or left click. A potential solution would be for her to attack the nearest enemy once she activates Hunger, unless you gave her instructions as to which specific enemy to attack. When auto-attack is disabled, she should have the option to attack or retreat when being attacked, not just stand there and wait for orders like an idiot.

-She automatically takes two steps forward after each attack if the opponent is moving. You cannot retreat immediately after the attack, you can only retreat after she takes the mandatory two steps.

-I didn't know Silencer had a stun.

Necrosis

04-02-2012, 03:48 AM

I forget the hotkey but there is a way to auto attack the nearest enemy without actually clicking on them. You can either do A + right click ground or I think it's shift + right click ground. Near creeps this would suck but in a isolated fight it's useful.

Grimace

04-03-2012, 08:58 PM

Yea they do have the highest skillcaps. Invokers mostly memory and reflex while Meepo is reflex and micro. They both tap into diff areas of the brain.

Wouldn't that be fun? measuring the brain when using Meepo and then Invoker.

In Heroes of Newerth 'Monkey King' is "that" hero.

I'd say chen with a triple creep micro is up there with voker and meepo.

Meepo is more repeating the same rhythmic commands quickly than using various different commands, though, so his skill set is slightly different. Essentially you're just shift queing multiple poofs in a row as quickly possible and spamming net by tabbing through your meepos. Still hard, of course, but lacking the kind of variety skillset of voker and chen.

certain item sets can create very high skill caps as well. Like if you have sheep, force staff, pipe, ethblade etc. (not sure who would have all these things lmao--maybe a super farmed pub lion) it get's very high skill to be using all the items and your regular skills in an optimal way.

Also. Don't forget tinker. A 6 slotted tinker will likely have hex, shivas, boots of travel, and some mixture of soulring forcestaff, dagon, ethblade, or maybe manta etc and his regular skill and rearm so hes using his spells like 5 times more often than other heroes.

Grimace

04-06-2012, 01:25 PM

also, I can't find anyone I actually know who needs a beta key. Does anyone want my extra beta key? I figure it's time to give back, and prevent an INTJ from going to the league of legends darkside!!

Shinganist

10-17-2012, 11:20 AM

I'm playing. Anybody want to put a team together or something? Playing with random folks that rarely speak make for a cluster fuck of a game.

Uriel

10-17-2012, 11:28 AM

Amouriel (EU)

Vaiz

10-17-2012, 11:36 AM

I have the beta but have never played it. I am generally a solid gamer though, is the in game name different from my steam name?

Shinganist

10-17-2012, 01:08 PM

I have the beta but have never played it. I am generally a solid gamer though, is the in game name different from my steam name?

Nope. You keep your steam name. Suggestion: read up on the game (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Learn about different roles then finding what best suits your play style and hero that will compliment that role. Then reading up on your hero so you have a general idea of how you should set up their skills and gear.

Grimace

10-17-2012, 02:19 PM

babsa

10-19-2012, 07:08 PM

Yeah it is an awesome game. I was surprised the League thread got so much action on this forum, since Dota2 is generally agreed to be more tactically deep and competitively viable and I hear nothing about it. But, granted, it still has a pay wall on the beta, so until it's out and free to play, it will have less attention.

Watching pro casts could help a beginner I assume.

Pro casts would probably be way over the head of beginners. They wouldn't understand why they are doing the things they are doing. The best way to learn the game is by sucking terribly for about 2-3 months, but the key is to focus on the fundamentals. You have to learn what makes up a good team of heroes, you have know about each hero's strengths and weaknesses, you have to keep in mind how each hero's strengths come to fruition throughout the entire game, you have to know when to pick certain heroes and when not to, and what each role (i.e. ganker, support, initiator, carry [trust me, there are many more categories]) should be doing in what circumstance. It is a lot of stuff to understand, and i am sure there are plenty of guides that can teach some of these fundamentals.

He's a hyper skills type character. His sunstrike is awesome!

He and Meepo are -I believe- the characters with the highest skillcap. Agree/Disagree?

For me, any hero that makes me micro, fucks me up, i just cant do it.

Grimace

10-20-2012, 01:42 PM

^yeah you're probably right. After 8-9 years of dota it's very easy to forget the ridiculous learning curve.

reading beginner guides could help

like Purge's "You're new to DOTA and you suck!" or w.e it's called.

Uriel

10-20-2012, 05:10 PM

I'm not a fan of Purge's gameplay. The only thing I like about him is his voice. I like Pyrion Flax (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) a lot more, because of his British accent and general attitude. Another guy I rather like is NorthernLion (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Learn Dota 2

1. Who are the Heroes (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)?

2. What are the Items (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)?

3. What Items do I start with (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)?

4. What is the Map (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)?

5. What are lanes (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)?

6. What is Last-Hitting (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)?

7. Get that Gold (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)!

If you have access to Dota 2 and want to learn, I suggest creating your own game with bots playing with you and against you.

From the main menu:

1. Play.
2. Create a Lobby.
3. Create a Lobby.
4. Click on any one of the 10 "Join Slots"
5. Click on any one of the down arrows to assign a slot to a bot hero.
6. You can pick one character from the opposite team to fight against you 1 on 1.
7. Or you can pick a team of 5 vs. 5
8. You can also pick the level of skill the heroes will possess.
9. Start Game.

The inevitable comparison to League of Legends (LoL). If you are trying to decide which game to start with, I suggest you start with DOTA 2 instead of LoL. If you start out with DOTA 2 then start playing LoL, you'll find LoL a hell of a lot "easier." If you start out with LoL then start playing DOTA 2, you'll be extremely frustrated at the level of "difficulty" DOTA 2 has. Though people who have played LoL will have a much better understanding of the DOTA 2 than someone who has not played either one, obviously.

Grimace

10-22-2012, 12:09 PM

^yeah.

Ultimately queing with friends who are seriousish is probably the funnest way to go. It's pretty easy to find people who are likeminded and will play with you. If you both get along well in game etc, add them to friends, start playing together. If they have friends who they normally already play with you can play with them as well. You kind of build a network of people to que with so you're not always pubbing solo. Solo isn't terrible, and in fact, if you're in the very high bracket, you'll get good teams pretty much always, but in high and normal it can be very frustrating.

also my felicities blessing mighty boar>

Uriel

10-22-2012, 02:57 PM

...

There are skill brackets? wtf?

How is skill being gauged anyway? What's the barometer for it?

My Ancient Apparition is just slightly above the 50% mark on the skill bar. Boo.
Does that mean I suck or what?

Vaiz

10-23-2012, 09:57 AM

There are skill brackets? wtf?

How is skill being gauged anyway? What's the barometer for it?

My Ancient Apparition is just slightly above the 50% mark on the skill bar. Boo.
Does that mean I suck or what?

Brackets are pretty common, and quite essential. They allow you to face equally skilled teams, otherwise pro teams would stomp around bored while newbies would have to constantly face soul crushing defeat.

Uriel

10-23-2012, 01:41 PM

I like playing in either bot or pub games. The ones who I prefer to play with are the ones who have a reasonable understanding of the mechanics of the game, but does not necessarily take the game way too seriously. Especially if they're someone who would use a Force Staff to push you into a 1 vs. 5 fight against the enemy team. :awesome:

Or Force Staff (Toss) you into the enemy fountain. I'm not even kidding when I say this.

I should friend those types of guys. It would probably make my game experience much more fun.

...

A reasonable explanation, yes. But I was more interested in how skill is determined. What's the barometer, if there is one?

Grimace

10-23-2012, 02:28 PM

There are skill brackets? wtf?

How is skill being gauged anyway? What's the barometer for it?

My Ancient Apparition is just slightly above the 50% mark on the skill bar. Boo.
Does that mean I suck or what?

Yeah, if you go into "recent games" and put a filter of "your name" and select a bracket (normal high or very high) it will show recent games you've had in that bracket, if any. In the past few months I've started pretty regular very high games if I solo que, which has been awesome because people are just better, reliable, less jumping of the shark in terms of decision making. I do like trying very hard :D, and play alot of support because so few people are good at it, though I probably am best at solo mid with gankers/semi carries. Over time you get good at every role, pretty much, especially over ridiculous ammounts of time.

Purge had a VLOG about the MMR system he posted after talking to a vALVE employee and the International 2, and he said it's pretty accurate, mathematically sound etc, though he wasn't at liberty to talk about the exact matrixes they use. Win/loss is certainly something. It could bring in assists, creep scores, kills deaths, in all likelyhood. He said the developer had received an email from someone claiming they were in too low of a bracket, so as an experiment he bumped them up 2 standard deviations (it's based on a normal curve etc) and the guy initially did okay, but ultimately went on a losing spree and ended up exactly where he started. Playing support isn't ideal, apparently, because the balance of MMR, claimed purge, is based around the solo mid essentially, that for the highest rated player on a team to not play solo mid skews the values of the game and is more likely to make them lose. Sadly bad players often demand mid and it's not worth the grief to argue with them and possibly ruin multiple lanes.

babsa

10-25-2012, 08:34 AM

Purge had a VLOG about the MMR system he posted after talking to a vALVE employee and the International 2, and he said it's pretty accurate, mathematically sound etc, though he wasn't at liberty to talk about the exact matrixes they use. Win/loss is certainly something. It could bring in assists, creep scores, kills deaths, in all likelyhood. He said the developer had received an email from someone claiming they were in too low of a bracket, so as an experiment he bumped them up 2 standard deviations (it's based on a normal curve etc) and the guy initially did okay, but ultimately went on a losing spree and ended up exactly where he started. Playing support isn't ideal, apparently, because the balance of MMR, claimed purge, is based around the solo mid essentially, that for the highest rated player on a team to not play solo mid skews the values of the game and is more likely to make them lose. Sadly bad players often demand mid and it's not worth the grief to argue with them and possibly ruin multiple lanes.

Although i poke my head in here every so often, i haven't actually played Dota 2; most of my experience is through HoN which is considered to be a very close rendition of the original. Disclaimer aside, i am a very big support player as well, and while i have tried to play as carry heroes i just can't do it. My play-style is too team oriented, i am constantly trying to find people to gank, towers to push, and neutral creep camps to stack - it is pretty much ingrained in my subconscious. Support is a pretty broad term, because in reality it can cover almost any role other than carry or semi-carry. I excel in baby sitter support heroes, initiating support heroes, anti-carry support heroes (that is something that i made up, but still applies), and ganking support heroes.

It seems like the MMR system is more advanced compared to the system in HoN, as HoN's MMR system relies solely on W/L trends. I really like the idea of the former of the two systems, which seems to be a lot better and fair. Your point about the correlation between mid solo and MMR rating is something that seems to transcend the MMR system of either game. While i hate to play mid, if i have a very large skill gap between me and the next person down, i will take mid and try my best. It would be impressive to see a rating system that not only rates your skill, but classifies you as your focus hero group and rates you amongst others of those groups.

Uriel

10-25-2012, 10:45 AM

I generally play support as well. I very rarely use carries now, because practically everyone plays carries. My favorite carry is by far Broodmother. If there is another carry in-game, I'll play her as pusher. I have absolutely no problem micro-managing her brood.

Yeah, if you go into "recent games" and put a filter of "your name" and select a bracket (normal high or very high) it will show recent games you've had in that bracket, if any. In the past few months I've started pretty regular very high games if I solo que, which has been awesome because people are just better, reliable, less jumping of the shark in terms of decision making. I do like trying very hard :D, and play alot of support because so few people are good at it, though I probably am best at solo mid with gankers/semi carries. Over time you get good at every role, pretty much, especially over ridiculous amounts of time.

Purge had a VLOG about the MMR system he posted after talking to a vALVE employee and the International 2, and he said it's pretty accurate, mathematically sound etc, though he wasn't at liberty to talk about the exact matrixes they use. Win/loss is certainly something. It could bring in assists, creep scores, kills deaths, in all likelyhood. He said the developer had received an email from someone claiming they were in too low of a bracket, so as an experiment he bumped them up 2 standard deviations (it's based on a normal curve etc) and the guy initially did okay, but ultimately went on a losing spree and ended up exactly where he started. Playing support isn't ideal, apparently, because the balance of MMR, claimed purge, is based around the solo mid essentially, that for the highest rated player on a team to not play solo mid skews the values of the game and is more likely to make them lose. Sadly bad players often demand mid and it's not worth the grief to argue with them and possibly ruin multiple lanes.

I found it now. My last three games were under the high bracket, and I won all three. I noticed that my "performance bar" on my DOTA profile under Ancient Apparition has been steadily moving from right to left (5 to 1). It's currently at around 2.7. Please tell me 1 is considered the highest skill that can be attained. :blank:

What of the heroes who play on either top or bottom lane then? Do their skills get analyzed or?

Vaiz

10-25-2012, 11:06 AM

This game is ludicrously complex O.o quite a bit to learn lol. If I play it'll probably just be with bots as I really won't want to get this serious into a game.

babsa

10-25-2012, 10:03 PM

This game is ludicrously complex O.o quite a bit to learn lol. If I play it'll probably just be with bots as I really won't want to get this serious into a game.

Yes, but it can be very rewarding as long as you spend your time with people who are aligned to your playstyle.

Uriel

10-26-2012, 03:36 AM

This game is ludicrously complex O.o quite a bit to learn lol. If I play it'll probably just be with bots as I really won't want to get this serious into a game.

I really like the way its complexity is contained within such a simple premise:

"Get enough gold to buy the items that will make your hero strong enough to kill the enemy heroes on your way to destroy their base."

If you accept this bare bones premise, everything else that makes it "complicated" will slowly and naturally flesh itself into your understanding. I've been playing this since I was in Germany a few years ago, it's quite popular there.

babsa

10-26-2012, 06:29 AM

"Get enough gold to buy the items that will make your hero strong enough to kill the enemy heroes on your way to destroy their base."

Kinda... you left out the teamwork part of it, though, which is huge. I mean, that's like saying Rhasta (If that is what dota 2 still calls the hero) can kill magebane if he farms as much as that hero.

Shinganist

10-27-2012, 01:52 PM

Yeah. Teamwork is the most important part, that and hero knowledge.

Uriel

10-27-2012, 01:54 PM

God, that's soooo INTJ of me to leave out the Team part.

Goat

10-27-2012, 05:29 PM

Grimace

10-27-2012, 05:56 PM

Me! Been playing Dota for ages.

Currently have a Macintosh computer for school, so no Dota 2 for a few months. For now all I have is old-school B.Net WC3 Dota.

It's funny, really -- being introduced to Dota was the best and worst thing to happen in my video game career. I've grown so fond of it that everything else feels like Pong in comparison.

Yeah, I play other games now and again

but I've pretty much exclusively played dota for like 9 years. It's interesting how a 5v5 team clash lasting 30-60mins on only one single map has kept my interest for so long, but it goes back to the subtle but intense depth to the game, the ability for very small things to make big differences.

Goat

10-27-2012, 09:09 PM

Yeah, I play other games now and again

but I've pretty much exclusively played dota for like 9 years. It's interesting how a 5v5 team clash lasting 30-60mins on only one single map has kept my interest for so long, but it goes back to the subtle but intense depth to the game, the ability for very small things to make big differences.

And the fact that it has such an incredible skill ceiling. There's just SO much to learn.

babsa

10-28-2012, 01:56 PM

And the fact that it has such an incredible skill ceiling. There's just SO much to learn.

Yup, there is that, but also the psychological part of it... the mind games, manipulation, domination. Also developing strategies with different heroes that may not follow conventional methods or play styles is absolutely addicting. I have sat down and stared at the hero list to dream up ideal hero pairings for when i play with my cousin, which is extremely rewarding when it succeeds.

Uriel

10-28-2012, 02:50 PM

I have sat down and stared at the hero list to dream up ideal hero pairings for when i play with my cousin, which is extremely rewarding when it succeeds.

Examples please.

Or you can state a hero and others can pair them up with another hero. A healthy exercise.

babsa

10-28-2012, 03:32 PM

I was thinking about it, but all of my experience is from HoN, and i am not certain if they have similar heroes in Dota 2. I will talk about them anyways, just because it is something that i really enjoy thinking about.

Nymphora and hammerstorm[sven]. Hammerstorm has a targetable aoe stun which is absolutely devastating in a sidelane pairing, but hammerstorm's weakness is a lack of mana pool (probably one of the worst in the game) and ability to close the gap and deal damage (he's a melee hero that is very dependent on auto attack). Nymphora remedies all of his woes with her short-term mana regen (think KotL) that also serves as a significant movement speed boost that works almost perfectly after hammerstorm let's loose his aoe stun. Her stun is a boomerang-like orb that stuns both times it passes a target, which serves as a spectacular follow-up stun. These two heroes are absolutely devastating together and nymphora's teleport she gets at level 6 only makes the pairing that much more awesome

Another great pairing is revenant (sp?) and blacksmith (think ogre magi). This pairing plays on their mutual magic armor debuffs, and their different strengths and weaknesses. Blacksmith works as a great intermediary early game as he deals as much or more damage than any str or agi hero, and revenant's bonus damage +slow buff on attack serves as a great negative reinforcement tool for the enemy ranged heroes that share their lane. With the harassment from revenant, the two heroes could pull off an easy kill by level 3 with their stacking -magic armor debuffs and damage over time spells. Watching the life tick away with the two afflictions is pretty awe inspiring. The dynamic duo get even stronger as the game continues on. Revenant can eventually turn him and an ally hero invisible for about 40 seconds at level 11 (iirc) which allows for some great mid-game ganks in enemy jungles. Also, blacksmith's magic armor/DoT spell turns into an AoE spell as he levels up his ultimate passive ability which is eerily synergistic with Revenant's magic armor/DoT spell that targets multiple enemy units and causes aoe damage around them and to them (which stacks btw).

These are just two of my favorite pairings.

Uriel

10-28-2012, 04:01 PM

I could swear this thread was about DOTA 2.

babsa

10-29-2012, 01:16 AM

Uh, yes, i have said before that i haven't gotten to play the beta yet, didn't know that would be news for you. I'm not trying to even make this a HoN thread, you asked me for examples and i gave them, even though i originally didn't want to because i only know HoN heroes.

Grimace

10-29-2012, 01:40 PM

a great combo is kunka and shadow demon.

try it; it owns

you time SD's disruption (2.5sec) with the 1.56 sec delay on torrent, so wait slightly more than a second; pretty ez if both people are relatively competent. He disrupts, casts soulcatcher, you land torrent (so theres the disable of torrent, and the up +50% bonus dmg of catcher, and the images of disruption hitting him in the torrents slow etc. It destroys lanes.

since I love kunka, this is something I like to do from time to time. Skillshotssssss

Uriel

10-30-2012, 05:24 AM

since I love kunka, this is something I like to do from time to time. Skillshotssssss

Ancient Apparition also pairs well with Kunkka. Cold Feet, then X. Or X, Torrent, Cold Feet. Tidebringer + Chilling Touch.

Grimace

11-02-2012, 01:35 PM

playing support in very high bracket is fun. The other positions actually know what they're doing so your supporting them isn't pointless like if you're carry can't farm or position themselves. Nothing seems more wasteful than pointlessly supporting players who can't even benefit from it.

Wheel

11-06-2012, 03:51 PM

Anyone need Dota keys? They just sent out a bunch of them to those who already had the game.

Quito

11-08-2012, 12:10 AM

I haven't touched a MOBA for ages. What's the meta like in Dota? Change much? Are the allstar heroes still the only ones being picked or what?

Grimace

11-08-2012, 12:23 AM

had a game on page 2 today :D

sadly, my team got shit stomped (had a no-battlehunger axe, on which I place central blame)

Uriel

11-08-2012, 01:00 AM

Anyone need Dota keys?
They just sent out a bunch of them to those who already had the game.

I never got new ones, what gives?

I haven't touched a MOBA for ages. What's the meta like in Dota?
Change much? Are the allstar heroes still the only ones being picked or what?

What do you mean by meta game?
Yup, the allstars constantly get picked, and I suspect the weekly videos being put out on youtube has influence in this behavior on gamers. If I had a dollar for each time I see Pudge in these videos...

(had a no-battlehunger axe, on which I place central blame)

I wonder if people know how effective Battlehunger is in killing off enemy heroes. It can really devastate agility heroes early games and prevent them from farming, and force intelligence heroes to use up their mana to kill creeps. It can also be effective in killing limping heroes. 627 damage over 33 seconds, come on. I constantly leveled up this skill in early games to get kills without too much chasing. I only leveled up Call mid-game.

Shinganist

11-16-2012, 07:55 PM

I got two Dota 2 keys if anybody wants them :)

Grimace

01-09-2013, 02:10 AM

just upping this to see if any more people are getting beta keys with all the key dumping

everyone I know has one, and I have 4 keys to give away, so if you want one, just ask, give me yo steam info etc

also, it's unfortunate when your first game of the day looks like this

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:( my ign is Stryk9

Uriel

01-09-2013, 03:32 AM

Is this what that is?

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Join the INTJf group (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) then.

CREB

01-09-2013, 08:55 AM

Hey guys, I have like 15 beta keys... if anyone needs let me know.
Also, I was hoping to play some dota 2 this weekend. If anyone is interested join the INTJf group on steam. cool?

Grimace

01-16-2013, 03:01 PM

aiight, now's the time to post your dotabuff stats.

mine are pretty modest, but anyways

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CREB

01-17-2013, 05:32 PM

Pro lifestealer haha

I think I'm a well rounded sniper. Mostly from solo que.
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Grimace

01-17-2013, 06:33 PM

Uriel

01-26-2013, 04:49 PM

dotabuff got shut down. My stats.

:disappointed:

Grimace

01-28-2013, 12:07 AM

ye, i was at 2190, now how can I belittle all the bronze scum!!!

Yono

02-15-2013, 12:55 PM

yeah solo queing can tricky. Depends on my mood. It can certainly lead to rage if you get crazy immature teammates, or are like the +1 queing with a 4-stack and they treat you like shit just because you aren't friends with them lol, even if they're all bad.

I know that feel brooo
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babsa

02-16-2013, 09:39 AM

Anyone here play HoN and can comment on the pace of DotA 2 games and make any additional comparisons?

Uriel

02-16-2013, 09:58 AM

Anyone here play HoN and can comment on the pace of DotA 2 games and make any additional comparisons?

IreOfDesire came from HoN, I believe. I played with him several times already and he was very competent at it.

babsa

02-16-2013, 12:24 PM

IreOfDesire came from HoN, I believe. I played with him several times already and he was very competent at it.

Well, they are very similar games, unlike LoL, but i have heard the meta game is significantly different, which is to be expected. I was hoping to get another opinion on the matter. I might talk to him some time.

IreOfDesire

02-17-2013, 04:35 AM

Well I wrote this before several weeks in another thread.
Well I can compare it to HoN since Dota 2 borrowed from their (HoN and LoL) improved mechanics and just ported the heroes from dota 1.
- I still can't figure out how the items you win in the end of the game work.
- The matching system is also a mystery to me.
- The reporting and feedback for players is also dim.
- Sadly you can't officially CC when the game is obviously FF.
- HoN changed some of the heroes spells so that they might work better with the overall hero style. e.g. - in HoN axe has charge ability and witch doctor healing is much more useful spell. The spirit breaker skills also make more sense and are better suited for teamplay. Magina can also share his magic resistance. Overall I think the heroes in HoN are done better.
- I really like the voice acting

Bare in mind, overall the game is good and this is still just beta, I have great hopes for it.
I don't see huge difference in the metagame although some items and spells work in a very different directions. Overall I think HoN choice is to highlight more on the teamfights and to be more competitive - compared to Dota 2 at least at this stage. When I'm playing HoN I do miss some heroes from Dota 1 that sadly are not ported e.g. windrunner, night stalker, enchantress, mortred...

Although comparing the pros and cons of the two games I think HoN is slightly ahead at this moment, I do realize that HoN is fading away and I'd have to switch to Dota 2 at some point. Better sooner than later.

Just my 2 silver coins.

babsa

02-17-2013, 11:27 AM

Well I wrote this before several weeks in another thread.

Bare in mind, overall the game is good and this is still just beta, I have great hopes for it.
I don't see huge difference in the metagame although some items and spells work in a very different directions. Overall I think HoN choice is to highlight more on the teamfights and to be more competitive - compared to Dota 2 at least at this stage. When I'm playing HoN I do miss some heroes from Dota 1 that sadly are not ported e.g. windrunner, night stalker, enchantress, mortred, ogre...

Although comparing the pros and cons of the two games I think HoN is slightly ahead at this moment, I do realize that HoN is fading away and I'd have to switch to Dota 2 at some point. Better sooner than later.

Just my 2 silver coins.

Thanks for that. I have heard the DotA 2 is slower paced when compared to HoN, do you find that to be true? Why do you feel that DotA 2 will eventually pull all the players to their side? The namesake?

Tahiti

02-17-2013, 12:09 PM

Came from HoN has 1850+ player and now have moved to Dota 2. It was hard and for weeks I felt HoN was better. Now after a month I won't ever be going back to HoN, it's uninstalled.

Yes, DoTA 2 is slightly slower paced but it's still a much better game.

babsa

02-17-2013, 12:10 PM

Uriel

02-17-2013, 01:46 PM

Came from HoN has 1850+ player and now have moved to Dota 2. It was hard and for weeks I felt HoN was better. Now after a month I won't ever be going back to HoN, it's uninstalled.

Add me on Steam, Nacho Castle. Let's make a cool team.

Care to delve deeper in your explanation? So far all the differences noted are all cons, not pros.

I checked your Steam, you don't even have DOTA2. Why don't you just play it and see for yourself?

babsa

02-17-2013, 02:42 PM

Add me on Steam, Nacho Castle. Let's make a cool team.

I checked your Steam, you don't even have DOTA2. Why don't you just play it and see for yourself?

It's gifted to me, i just have to activate it. I would play it, but i am pretty lazy and don't like the idea of having even more games on my compooter. I will eventually perhaps.

IreOfDesire

02-18-2013, 12:25 AM

Thanks for that. I have heard the DotA 2 is slower paced when compared to HoN, do you find that to be true? Why do you feel that DotA 2 will eventually pull all the players to their side? The namesake?

Well, I don't see it as slower paced, they seem equal in that regard.
On the matter of popularity, it seems that HoN is loosing its supporters, some of them are moving to Dota 2 and there is still far larger community in LoL. When I last played HoN (in November I think) there were approximately 50k people online playing and this number was descending. Now at Dota 2 the stats says that there are something like 250k people i guess? And this is still beta.
PS: Weird enough Dota 2 querying still takes longer. Perhaps there is some optimization to be done.

Grimace

02-18-2013, 12:42 AM

Well I wrote this before several weeks in another thread.

Bare in mind, overall the game is good and this is still just beta, I have great hopes for it.
I don't see huge difference in the metagame although some items and spells work in a very different directions. Overall I think HoN choice is to highlight more on the teamfights and to be more competitive - compared to Dota 2 at least at this stage. When I'm playing HoN I do miss some heroes from Dota 1 that sadly are not ported e.g. windrunner, night stalker, enchantress, mortred...

Although comparing the pros and cons of the two games I think HoN is slightly ahead at this moment, I do realize that HoN is fading away and I'd have to switch to Dota 2 at some point. Better sooner than later.

Just my 2 silver coins.

From the analyses I've heard, the HON metagame is more static than that of dota2. How is the current laning meta in HON? Dota's is very versatile, so I'm curious.

currently in DOTA2 im struggling with running into the exact same stack repeatedly over the last few days, and they are really quite good. I'm 1-3 vs them now in two days. Granted, these are in the upper pages of the whatchlist (like 1-5), but damn, they are crushing me pretty hard. I'm not actually sure how HON matchmaking works. Does this happen in HON? Is the matchmaking selective on your MMR, even if dota2's is hidden wereas HON's is visible.

Uriel

02-18-2013, 04:31 AM

What do you guys mean by meta-game?

babsa

02-18-2013, 05:24 AM

Well, I don't see it as slower paced, they seem equal in that regard.
On the matter of popularity, it seems that HoN is loosing its supporters, some of them are moving to Dota 2 and there is still far larger community in LoL. When I last played HoN (in November I think) there were approximately 50k people online playing and this number was descending. Now at Dota 2 the stats says that there are something like 250k people i guess? And this is still beta.
PS: Weird enough Dota 2 querying still takes longer. Perhaps there is some optimization to be done.

So basically, it is happening inexplicably. HoN is a great game, the only reason I can see for this is DotA's namesake.

From the analyses I've heard, the HON metagame is more static than that of dota2. How is the current laning meta in HON? Dota's is very versatile, so I'm curious.

currently in DOTA2 im struggling with running into the exact same stack repeatedly over the last few days, and they are really quite good. I'm 1-3 vs them now in two days. Granted, these are in the upper pages of the whatchlist (like 1-5), but damn, they are crushing me pretty hard. I'm not actually sure how HON matchmaking works. Does this happen in HON? Is the matchmaking selective on your MMR, even if dota2's is hidden wereas HON's is visible.

I enjoy the laning in HoN, S2 has put in a lot of effort into promoting a more active laning phase than it's predecessor, DotA. As Ire has previously stated, many heroes have been changed or reworked to shift the metagame to be much more active.

One of the complaints I have about HoN, atm, is the matchmaking system. Right now the entry level rating is more difficult than the more advanced ratings because many of the higher rated players (like world tourny level play) create new profiles with the new f2p system so that they can get super duper stats to beat their dicks to or practice heroes without hurting their main account's stats. As a slightly higher skilled player, I can't compete with these guys, and as a support player, I cant make a signuficant impact on the game to win. Granted, this is only on the account I created to play heroes I don't normally play - I shouldn't care.that I lose, but that's not how this genre of game works.

What do you guys mean by meta-game?

Basically the grand scheme of how all things in the game interact with each other. When they created a cheap item (625g), called blood chalice, that gave players a quick access to 140 mana, heroes like pudge became very popular and imbalanced which made other heroes less effective and strategies less effective.

Uriel

02-18-2013, 07:46 AM

I made a suggestion to remake the hero-pick screen. I hope they consider it.

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CREB

02-20-2013, 03:20 PM

Their current menu lacks elegance and sophistication. Although, Your design is definitely better than the current one, I think it could undergo further aesthetic improvement :)

Tahiti

02-20-2013, 08:45 PM

Add me on Steam, Nacho Castle. Let's make a cool team.

Might take me a while to get around to this.

What do you guys mean by meta-game?

It's how the game is unanimously best played/what strategies are used.

Care to delve deeper in your explanation? So far all the differences noted are all cons, not pros.

Well I've always thought S2 were the most incompetent pieces of cr... you get the idea. With Valve's backing and the amount of tournaments as well as the increase in skill level needed I believe DoTA 2 is the much better game for the elitist. If all your friends still play HoN then don't switch unless you have to. The games are so close and the nostalgia I get from playing DoTA 2 is also nice to have.

babsa

02-21-2013, 10:37 PM

Might take me a while to get around to this.

It's how the game is unanimously best played/what strategies are used.

Well I've always thought S2 were the most incompetent pieces of cr... you get the idea. With Valve's backing and the amount of tournaments

I can understand your frustration. I like to lean on the side of leniency as S2 is not a very experienced and "battle-hardened" gaming studio - mistakes and learning experiences are bound to happen.

as well as the increase in skill level needed I believe DoTA 2 is the much better game for the elitist.

Increase in skill level needed? How so?

Hefelgar

02-26-2013, 07:46 PM

So basically, it is happening inexplicably. HoN is a great game, the only reason I can see for this is DotA's namesake.

It's not exactly strictly for DotA's namesake but because of the whole 'industry' (for lack of a better word) around it. DotA 1 players were easily able to make the swap to DOTA 2 because nothing has essentially changed. The DotA celebrities moved in as well and new one entered the scene along with DOTA 2 (Purge, the guys at DotaCinema, etc. comes to mind). Tournaments didn't really have to change anything either.

Valve is also a company that's loved by it's players and the Cash Shop model presented by DOTA 2 made sense from the perspective of DotA 1 players. Unlike LoL and HoN's Cash Shop (although I believe HoN changed it last year but I'm not sure), DOTA 2's Cash Shop gives access to all heroes for free (whereas you'd have to unlock them by grinding in-game currency for thousands of matches or buy Cash Shop currency to unlock them). The cash shop contains purely cosmetic items to make heroes look different without having any bearing on the match, Announcer packs, Spectator Access to Tournament Matches. Most interesting is that the majority of those cosmetic items are designed by players and sold through Steam where those players will receive a cut from the sales of their items (I believe in DOTA 2, players get 80%, Valve %20, but in Team Fortress 2 it's 60% for the players and 40% for Valve but I'd really need to check for a source again, too much uncertainty).

IreOfDesire

02-27-2013, 12:38 AM

It's not exactly strictly for DotA's namesake but because of the whole 'industry' (for lack of a better word) around it. DotA 1 players were easily able to make the swap to DOTA 2 because nothing has essentially changed. The DotA celebrities moved in as well and new one entered the scene along with DOTA 2 (Purge, the guys at DotaCinema, etc. comes to mind). Tournaments didn't really have to change anything either.

Valve is also a company that's loved by it's players and the Cash Shop model presented by DOTA 2 made sense from the perspective of DotA 1 players. Unlike LoL and HoN's Cash Shop (although I believe HoN changed it last year but I'm not sure), DOTA 2's Cash Shop gives access to all heroes for free (whereas you'd have to unlock them by grinding in-game currency for thousands of matches or buy Cash Shop currency to unlock them). The cash shop contains purely cosmetic items to make heroes look different without having any bearing on the match, Announcer packs, Spectator Access to Tournament Matches. Most interesting is that the majority of those cosmetic items are designed by players and sold through Steam where those players will receive a cut from the sales of their items (I believe in DOTA 2, players get 80%, Valve %20, but in Team Fortress 2 it's 60% for the players and 40% for Valve but I'd really need to check for a source again, too much uncertainty).

So you basically confirm that there's no more to Dota 2 than there is currently to HoN, except for the the fact that due to historical reasons Dota 2 has more supporters.

And yes currently HoN cash shop sells only cosmetic items - new hero skins, shouts, couriers etc.

Hefelgar

02-27-2013, 08:28 AM

So you basically confirm that there's no more to Dota 2 than there is currently to HoN, except for the the fact that due to historical reasons Dota 2 has more supporters.

More than simply DotA 2 having more supporters, the company behind it (Valve) also has more supporters, and you've also got IceFrog leading the developer team. The business model also helped a lot. People tend to flock to places they're more comfortable with.

Speaking strictly of the overall gameplay, it's true that there's not much difference between HoN and DOTA 2 other than some decisions here and there. DOTA 2 is definitively staying "true" to DOTA 1 by keeping most things 'as is' whereas HoN tried to make minor changes here and there or increasing the pace of the game, but nothing excessive that both games could be said to be different. Most of the differences are found outside of the gameplay.