The Ten Commandments

[Claptonian]

In the homosexual bigotry thread, a couple people off-handedly mentioned the controversy surrounding the removal of the Ten Commandments from American courts, with one person acting like it was a travesty. I'm an atheist, but I think that even if I were a Christian or a practicing Jew, I would find the placement of the Ten Commandments at a court building laughable. People always claim that the American legal system was based on the Ten Commandments, but only three of the commandments (don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness) have any relevance to the laws of the U.S. The rest has nothing to do with it.

Any thoughts? I'd especially like to hear from anyone who can explain to me why a court would have a monument advising people to keep Saturday "holy," or forbidding people from misusing the word "God."

[Valiyn]

I've seen diehard atheist professors of law say straight forward that if people would just follow the 10 commandments, we wouldn't need a legal system.

Much more of our legal system is based off the Welsh legal system Hywel Dha Good established which was based off the Greek ((or was it roman?)) legal system. We should have the Welsh Red Dragon in our courthouses if we can have the 10 commandments in there. No difference when honoring the roots of the system. I kinda like the idea of a dragon next to stonetablets staring a criminal in the face reminding them to be thankfull their in America where they can have a trial instead of a town in the darkages where they would just feed ya to the local dragon. Gives them something to think about other then license plates.

[blueback]

Most of the people in the US are Christian. They like the Ten Commandments even if they can't remember all of them. It makes them feel good to see a sybol of their religion in front of a courthouse because they aren't fans of the seperation of church and state.

The reason the big monument of the Ten Commandments was removed from that courthouse was that it was not blanced with anything else. It was a huge chunk of rock that people had to walk AROUND as they entered the main entrance of the courthouse. There are plenty of courthouses which display the Ten Commandments as an equal part of a larger historical display which is accessible but not something you have to walk around.





blueback added to this post, 0 minutes and 56 seconds later...

I've seen diehard atheist professors of law say straight forward that if people would just follow the 10 commandments, we wouldn't need a legal system.

Then the Ten Commandments would be our legal system.

[PHS Philip]

If we can have the ten commandments, I want a plate of spaghetti in the court room. We already have the Invisible Pink Unicorn (she's invisible, she's painted there, you just can't see her), but Pastafatarians are unreasonably discriminated against.

I also want my Church of the FSM and Church of the IPU holybooks to swear on in court.

Note: If I thought the 10 commandments that become an issue were there for historical purposes (IE a depiction of America's history), I'd be fine with them (or at least less opposed). However, many of the ones that have become well known issues were very clearly not.

[Claptonian]

There are plenty of courthouses which display the Ten Commandments as an equal part of a larger historical display which is accessible but not something you have to walk around.

That makes some sense to me. I'm still not for it, but using the Ten Commandments as an example of the concept of "law" in history is reasonable.

[blueback]

Note: If I thought the 10 commandments that become an issue were there for historical purposes...I'd be fine with them...many of the ones that have become well known issues were very clearly not.

I thought I covered that.

[PHS Philip]

I thought I covered that.

You did. I just agreed with what you said.

[blueback]

You did. I just agreed with what you said.
Then I agree with what you said.

[zibber]

How do the ten commandments fit into American history, specifically? I get how they could be an illustration in a display about the history of laws in general, but that kind of reasoning does reek of religion-inspired rationalisation.


I kinda like the idea of a dragon next to stonetablets staring a criminal in the face reminding them to be thankfull their in America where they can have a trial

Well yeah, except at Gitmo.

I've seen diehard atheist professors of law say straight forward that if people would just follow the 10 commandments, we wouldn't need a legal system.

I can't really place this comment, specifically the inclusion of the phrase diehard atheist. Is it in defense of the ten commandments? If so, those must be some pretty conservative professors. Stuff like sleeping with your neighbour's wife isn't good for inter-neighbour relations and just a dick move in general, but prohibiting something like that would be silly. I think your diehard atheist professors were just talking about not killing and stealing, honestly..

[Bandit]

The seperation of church and state issue is a big one indeed.. but the reality of the situation is that this country was founded on religion..

Just look at the back of our paper currency and you will find one common saying..

"In God We Trust"

So by trying to go back and remove any form of religion from the goverment or the legal system is basically.. trying to tear down or erradicate the values upon which this country was founded.

In God We Trust is the official national motto of the United States first appearing on United States currency in 1864

[PHS Philip]

The seperation of church and state issue is a big one indeed.. but the reality of the situation is that this country was founded on religion..

Do some research on Madison, Jefferson, John Adams, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Paine's religions. Hint:

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson

Just look at the back of our paper currency and you will find one common saying..

"In God We Trust"

Which was added in the Cold War because the logic ran "if the Communists are areligious, being religious MUST be good!"

So by trying to go back and remove any form of religion from the goverment or the legal system is basically.. trying to tear down or erradicate the values upon which this country was founded.

The founders specifically tried to avoid religion in the writing of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The idea of individual rights developed alongside Christianity, but it is by no means specifically a Christian or even a religious idea.

In God We Trust is the official national motto of the United States first appearing on United States currency in 1864

70 years after the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written. That's not exactly the "founding of America." And, as I have already said in the other thread, tradition is not a valid argument in favor of something.

[Bandit]

Do some research on Madison, Jefferson, John Adams, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Paine's religions.

Benjamin Franklin, near the end of the Constitutional Convention, addressed the members concerning prayer, God, and the founding of our nation:

In this situation of this assembly, groping, as it were, in the dark, to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, sir, a long time, and, the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed, in this political building, no better than the builders of Babel. We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded; and we ourselves shall become a reproach and by-word down to future ages. And, what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom, and leave it to chance, war. and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.
[Elliot's Debates 5:253-4]


From Washington's Farewell Address to the Continental Congress:

I consider it an indispensable duty to close this last act of my official life by commending the interests of our dearest country to the protection of Almighty God, and those who have the superintendence of them to his holy keeping.[Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789, Tuesday, December 23, 1783, p. 837]


John Adams ended his first address to the Senate this way:

A trust of the greatest magnitude is committed to this Legislature; and the eyes of the world are upon you Your country expects, from the results of your deliberations, in concurrence with the other branches of government, consideration abroad, and contentment at home--prosperity, order, justice, peace, and liberty: And may God Almighty's providence assist you to answer their just expectations.[Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, 1789-1793, Tuesday, April 21, 1789, p. 15]


George Washington's Thanksgiving proclamation in 1789:

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and Whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanks-giving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness." Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th. day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be. That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks, for his kind care and protection of the People of this country previous to their becoming a Nation, for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war, for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed, for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions, to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually, to render our national government a blessing to all the People, by constantly being a government of wise, just and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed, to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shown kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord. To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and Us, and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.[The Writings of George Washington from the Original Manuscript Sources, 1745-1799, Series 8a, Correspondence and Miscellaneous Notes, 1773-1799, October 3, 1789]



Which was added in the Cold War because the logic ran "if the Communists are areligious, being religious MUST be good!"

A law was passed by the 84th United States Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956. President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved a joint resolution declaring In God We Trust the national motto of the United States.[1] The same Congress had required, in the previous year, that the words appear on all currency, as a Cold War measure: "In these days when imperialistic and materialistic Communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, it is proper" to "remind all of us of this self-evident truth" that "as long as this country trusts in God, it will prevail."

The founders specifically tried to avoid religion in the writing of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The idea of individual rights developed alongside Christianity, but it is by no means specifically a Christian or even a religious idea.

We could always check the Declaration of independence..and it's acknowledgment of a supreme being..

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station
to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitles them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection
of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.


Bandit added to this post, 17 minutes and 14 seconds later...

From the days of the Revolution, the Continental Congress wrote these words:

In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.

The Congress, therefore, considering the warlike preparations of the British Ministry to subvert our invaluable rights and priviledges, and to reduce us by fire and sword, by the savages of the wilderness, and our own domestics, to the most abject and ignominious bondage: Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; and by inclining their hearts to justice and benevolence, prevent the further effusion of kindred blood. But if, continuing deaf to the voice of reason and humanity, and inflexibly bent, on desolation and war, they constrain us to repel their hostile invasions by open resistance, that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis--That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.[Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789, Saturday, March 16, 1776, pp. 208-209]





Bandit added to this post, 2 minutes and 33 seconds later...

A year and a half later, Congress again called for a day of Thanksgiving:

Forasmuch as it is the indispensable duty of all men to adore the superintending providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with gratitude their obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther blessings as they stand in need of; and it having pleased him in his abundant mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable bounties of his common providence, but also to smile upon us in the prosecution of a just and necessary war, for the defence and establishment of our unalienable rights and liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a measure to prosper the means used for the support of our troops and to crown our arms with most signal success: It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart Thursday, the eighteenth day of December next, for solemn thanksgiving and praise; that with one heart and one voice the good people may express the grateful feelings of their hearts, and consecrate themselves to the service of their divine benefactor; and that together with their sincere acknowledgments and offerings, they may join the penitent confession of their manifold sins, whereby they had forfeited every favour, and their humble and earnest supplication that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance; that it may please him graciously to afford his blessing on the governments of these states respectively, and prosper the public council of the whole; to inspire our commanders both by land and sea, and all under them, with that wisdom and fortitude which may render them fit instruments, under the providence of Almighty God, to secure for these United States the greatest of all human blessings, independence and peace; that it may please him to prosper the trade and manufactures of the people and the labour of the husbandman, that our land may yet yield its increase; to take schools and seminaries of education, so necessary for cultivating the principles of true liberty, virtue and piety, under his nurturing hand, and to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth "in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost."[Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789, Saturday, November 1, 1777, pp. 854-855]

[PHS Philip]

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in Norman Cousins, In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (1958), p. 108, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His providence. That He ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render Him is doing good to His other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any particular marks of His displeasure." [Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale, shortly before his death; from "Benjamin Franklin" by Carl Van Doren, the October, 1938 Viking Press edition pages 777-778 Also see Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94]

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.
-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817, in Lester Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, (1959) p. 506, quoted from Jeremy Koselak, "The Exaltation of a Reasonable Deity: Thomas Jefferson’s Critique of Christianity"

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely (June 25, 1819), quoted from Dickinson W Adams, ed, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Second Series (Princeton University Press, 1983; note that attributions saying "Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University (June 25, 1819)" are incorrect, as that Ezra Stiles died in 1795)

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Peter Carr, 10 Aug. 1787. (original capitalization of the word god is retained per original)

Many of them were, at the most, very moderate Christians. Many of them were very probably deists.

[Bandit]

In any case they all make the acknowledgment of a God...a creator or a supreme being..

The point being that Our Nation has strong religious roots, from the founding fathers, on down..

[PHS Philip]

In any case they all make the acknowledgment of a God...a creator or a supreme being..

The point being that Our Nation has strong religious roots, from the founding fathers, on down..

Deism is not a strong religion. It is saying simply that there is a being. It makes no claims about anything other than the existence of a being. And, for that time, it made sense. They had only a small fraction of the scientific knowledge we have today. There was no explanation for the formation of the universe yet, for instance. Deism was the equivalent to atheism at that time, because it said that God was impersonal, and had set the universe in motion.

And you still haven't answered my question. Why does it matter if something is traditional?

[Bandit]

And you still haven't answered my question. Why does it matter if something is traditional?


This the first time you posed the question, yet it is essentially not relevent to the current debate as the basis or foundation of the discussion at hand deals with whether or not this nation is based on religion, and as such this would account for items such as the 10 commandments being displayed at courthouses to remind us of this fact.

The nation was founded on religion...

As for the loaded question of "Why does it matter if something is traditional?"

This would totally depend upon what that something was..

As for Religion, God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.. I learned a few lessons in my time in the Marine Corps.. and that is that even an Atheist Prays when being shot at, or when they are afraid of losing their lives... It is human nature to call upon a higher being for help.... So your Atheist and I can respect that, and I can't give you any true evidence of God, I can only say that I have faith...... which is all one can have... If I'm wrong not great loss.. If I'm right there is a huge payoff when I die... on the other hand if your wrong, (well let's just say it will be an eternally lived mistake)...

[Brutananadilewski]

This the first time you posed the question, yet it is essentially not relevent to the current debate as the basis or foundation of the discussion at hand deals with whether or not this nation is based on religion, and as such this would account for items such as the 10 commandments being displayed at courthouses to remind us of this fact.

The nation was founded on religion...

It is entirely relevant because the principles upon which a country was established may not be the best for the current times. The world changes over time, and our cultures are continually adapting to meet the social, political, and intellectual changes that arise. Thus, it is valid to question the principles upon which a country was founded in order to see if those principles are indeed still "good" for the current people. We constantly need to revise such ideals in order to serve the people of the changing times. The only rebuttal to the questioning of the founding principles is tradition. Thus, it is relevant to ask why tradition matters at all, since it's the only reason not to change the basic foundations of a nation.


As for Religion, God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.. I learned a few lessons in my time in the Marine Corps.. and that is that even an Atheist Prays when being shot at, or when they are afraid of losing their lives... It is human nature to call upon a higher being for help....

That's a pretty bold statement. Care to back that up with anything verifiable? Or will you irrationally assert that this is true when you have no objective justification for such an assertion?

So your Atheist and I can respect that, and I can't give you any true evidence of God, I can only say that I have faith...... which is all one can have... If I'm wrong not great loss.. If I'm right there is a huge payoff when I die... on the other hand if your wrong, (well let's just say it will be an eternally lived mistake)...

Pascal's wager need not apply here. It's a bogus line of thinking, outdated and refuted. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[blueback]

In any case they all make the acknowledgment of a God...a creator or a supreme being..

They also all kept slaves. Does that mean that we should all keep slaves now?

The point being that Our Nation has strong religious roots, from the founding fathers, on down..
[/QUOTE]
No, that means that they all mentioned God, it doesn't mean they wanted out country's political system based on the Bible.

Don't you find it interesting that your own argument contradicts itself? On the one hand you say, fairly, that the founding fathers all thought there was some sort of God (creator). On the other hand you have to admit that they were very careful to keep any mention of God out of the actual structure of the government. Sure, they mentioned it a few times when they were talking about their motivations, like in the DoI and in speeches, but they didn't mention it when they actually blocked out the framework of the government.

And from that you conclude that there is strong evidence the country was founded on religion? I disagree. What I see is strong evidence that our country was founded on principles which are larger than religion. The founding fathers did just what they suggested everyone else do, they practiced their religion on their own time and kept it out of government. They specifically said that the government should be a secular institution which was neither pro nor anti religious. The people could do whatever they wanted as long as they respected that founding idea.

That is where you're having trouble. The PRINCIPLE of separation of church and state is a very good idea, but not everyone understands it or practices it, or even agrees that it is a good idea. When our country was founded the idea that a government would not have an officially endorsed religion was relatively new, so of course there were contemporaries who weren't convinced it would work. Even today, where it is obvious that the principle works, there are people who think it is a bad idea. Don't confuse the principle with the way various people implement it.

...this nation is based on religion, and...the 10 commandments being displayed at courthouses to remind us of this fact.

Nope. The 10 commandments are displayed in some courthouses along with other examples of ancient laws. When they are put front-and-center in a prostheletyzing way they are removed. The US has a large population of evangelical Christians who think it is a good idea to convert everyone else to their belief system, not to just practice it on their own. That means that we constantly have to stop them from finding new and more innovative ways of pushing their beliefs on others.

The nation was founded on religion...

Nope. It would probably be accurate to say that our nation's foundaion incorporates Judeo-Chrisitan principles, but not that it was "founded on religion."

Wikipedia provides examples of the principles that Jews and Christians hold in common: "liberty, responsibility, hard work, ethics, justice, equality, a sense of choseness and an ethical mission to the world" These principles are at the foundation of American government and since the Bible came before America the Bible got to them first. A good idea is, after all, a good idea. Just because those good (part of the foundation of America) are shared by a religion does not mean that American government is founded on religion. It just means that the ideas were first illustrated in religious teachings.

I wouldn't be suprised if just about EVERYTHING was somehow firts illustrated in a religious teaching of some kind.

...even an Atheist Prays when being shot at, or when they are afraid of losing their lives...

I've heard that before and it's still wrong. For example, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. and the Atheists in Foxholes event To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It is human nature to call upon a higher being for help....

Well, it is human nature to beg someone more powerful for help. I've never understood the idea that religious people will say that everything is God's plan but at the same time they will ask God to do what they want. If God is in control of everything why would he alter his plan for you? If God wants you to die you are going to die, it's not like he's going to change his plan just because you don't like it at the moment. That inconsistency has always bothered me.

I can't give you any true evidence of God, I can only say that I have faith...... which is all one can have... If I'm wrong not great loss.. If I'm right there is a huge payoff when I die... on the other hand if your wrong, (well let's just say it will be an eternally lived mistake)...

What if you're wrong because the Hindus are right? Actually, never mind, I'm not goint to bother refuting Pascal's wager. It has already been refuted far too many times to be worth the effort.

[PHS Philip]

This the first time you posed the question,

Not really. I didn't word it as a question, but it stood as an argument waiting for you to respond.

And, as I have already said in the other thread, tradition is not a valid argument in favor of something.


Tradition is also full of crap. Who cares if something is "traditional?" So were things like which burnings. Tradition is only a valid reason for keeping something in that it's easier to keep things the same than change them. If there is any positive to changing things at all, that should override the weight of tradition. "It's how it's done" is not evidence for the correctness of something, and that's all an argument from tradition is.


yet it is essentially not relevent to the current debate as the basis or foundation of the discussion at hand deals with whether or not this nation is based on religion, and as such this would account for items such as the 10 commandments being displayed at courthouses to remind us of this fact.


It is highly relevant. You said that because we were founded on religion, religion is and should be a prominent part of our government. You didn't overtly say this, but it was obviously the point of your earlier post.


The nation was founded on religion...

Repeating a claim does not make it true. Every effort was made to keep religion out of every last piece of the US government. Jefferson said that they had attempted "to drive a wall of separation" between church and state. The others said similar things.

As for the loaded question of "Why does it matter if something is traditional?"

This would totally depend upon what that something was..

Why? Does an ad hominem become a valid argument in certain contexts? Does an argument from authority, or an argument ad populum? Argument from tradition is a type of argument, and I really can't think of any context in which it's valid except in the absence of any positive benefits whatsoever to change. Enlighten me. Why is "it's the way it's done" a valid argument? Should medicine operate under it, and bring back the humors?

As for Religion, God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.. I learned a few lessons in my time in the Marine Corps.. and that is that even an Atheist Prays when being shot at, or when they are afraid of losing their lives... It is human nature to call upon a higher being for help.... So your Atheist and I can respect that, and I can't give you any true evidence of God, I can only say that I have faith...... which is all one can have... If I'm wrong not great loss.. If I'm right there is a huge payoff when I die... on the other hand if your wrong, (well let's just say it will be an eternally lived mistake)...

That is a lie, and an extremely offensive one at that. Have you heard of Jeremy Hall? He had a bullet lodged in the glass in his turret in Iraq. He didn't convert, and indeed was harassed for being an atheist. It is just plain stupid to think that people can't hope without religion.

As for Pascal's Wager...what Blueback said.

[Claptonian]

but the reality of the situation is that this country was founded on religion..

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...

So, no. The country was not founded on the Christian religion, according to the unanimously ratified treaty quoted above, and I think it would be very difficult to make a case that it's founded on the Jewish religion. To suggest that the Ten Commandments are put in courts to remind us of this "fact" you've come up with is laughable, and would be even if what you were espousing were true.





Claptonian added to this post, 5 minutes and 6 seconds later...



As for Religion, God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.. I learned a few lessons in my time in the Marine Corps.. and that is that even an Atheist Prays when being shot at, or when they are afraid of losing their lives...


Hilariously ignorant and irrelevant.

[Bandit]

That's a pretty bold statement. Care to back that up with anything verifiable? Or will you irrationally assert that this is true when you have no objective justification for such an assertion?


Personal experience my friend.. In the Marine Corps I was an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician and attended NAVEOD School at Eglin AFB in Florida in 1996. Upon graduating that school I was assigned to the EOD unit at 1stMarDiv. As such I have had to deal with IED's on a very personal note in some very unhappy places.. I'll tell you from experience that it is an amazing experience coming to grips with ones own mortality.. Dawning that Bomb Suit and walking down on a car that is filled with explosives, not knowing whether or not some little fuck is watching through a set of BINO's waiting to activate it when you get close..

I don't know how to put it into words what that feels like... I suppose Powerless, would be the best word.. As you really have no control over what's going to happen.. it may or may not be the end... Even with the suit.. you stil won't be much more than a red mist and a memory.. Scary, Calming, Surreal, thinking about your wife, thinking about stuff you would like to do, thinking about things you didnt do, thinking about the job at hand.. and pushing forward to keep taking those steps downrange and get it done... I don't think that I would ever want to do that stuff again, or feel those feelings again... We had some Atheist Techs in our group, and when the call came in and were cruising the hummers through the city to the call.. and they start putting on that suit to go down range and deal with the problem.. They pray...because their scared, because they have no control and hope that a higher power, being, entity, the force whatever is looking out for them that day and can get them back home.. I've seen tears running down their faces when they make it back up range safely, I've had people tell me to tell their loved ones that they loved them before going down range.. I've even had to pick up the body parts of my friends after and IED took out a vehicle.. I suppose it's not fair to expect you to understand, because you have never been through those kinds of situations.. but it happens.. Maybe not all Atheist will pray, but the ones that I have been around, have always tried to call upon something greater than themselves when faced with the circumstances that we shared together..





Bandit added to this post, 8 minutes and 45 seconds later...

To each their own, and we are going to keep arguing in circles.. You unable to see the facts as I see them, and me unable to see the facts as you see them.. I suppose it all comes down to personal beliefs..

As I stated earlier.. I'll continue to believe in God, and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.. and if I'm wrong and their is nothing on the other side, then at worst I have spent my life trying to follow good principles and be a good person... If I'm right then I get to go to heaven...

As an Atheist if your right and there is not God.. Well there's no payoff, nothing worth apsiring too, no end goal.. since when you die, that's it.. worms eat you and the game is over... Theres no finish line... However if your wrong, then that would be a grave mistake indeed... But neither of us really know for sure...

So me being a betting man, and wanting to stack the odds in my favor would rather choose the more religious life in the hopes that their is something greater than us all.. than deny the fact and pay for it eternally if I am wrong...

That basically sums it up.. Neither of us is going to back down, and this argument will continue basically forever... So I'll keep my beliefs that the nation was founded on Christ and you can keep yours that it wasnt, and we will continue to co-exist... That's the beautiful part about this country that we are free to believe as we choose...

[Brutananadilewski]

Personal experience my friend.. In the Marine Corps I was an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician and attended NAVEOD School at Eglin AFB in Florida in 1996. Upon graduating that school I was assigned to the EOD unit at 1stMarDiv. As such I have had to deal with IED's on a very personal note in some very unhappy places.. I'll tell you from experience that it is an amazing experience coming to grips with ones own mortality.. Dawning that Bomb Suit and walking down on a car that is filled with explosives, not knowing whether or not some little fuck is watching through a set of BINO's waiting to activate it when you get close..

I don't know how to put it into words what that feels like... I suppose Powerless, would be the best word.. As you really have no control over what's going to happen.. it may or may not be the end... Even with the suit.. you stil won't be much more than a red mist and a memory.. Scary, Calming, Surreal, thinking about your wife, thinking about stuff you would like to do, thinking about things you didnt do, thinking about the job at hand.. and pushing forward to keep taking those steps downrange and get it done... I don't think that I would ever want to do that stuff again, or feel those feelings again... We had some Atheist Techs in our group, and when the call came in and were cruising the hummers through the city to the call.. and they start putting on that suit to go down range and deal with the problem.. They pray...because their scared, because they have no control and hope that a higher power, being, entity, the force whatever is looking out for them that day and can get them back home.. I've seen tears running down their faces when they make it back up range safely, I've had people tell me to tell their loved ones that they loved them before going down range.. I've even had to pick up the body parts of my friends after and IED took out a vehicle.. I suppose it's not fair to expect you to understand, because you have never been through those kinds of situations.. but it happens.. Maybe not all Atheist will pray, but the ones that I have been around, have always tried to call upon something greater than themselves when faced with the circumstances that we shared together..

That demonstrates that those atheists searched for a "higher power" in times of need. This, however, only applies to the atheists that you've observed in those situations. Therefore, it is illogical and invalid to make any conclusions concerning all atheists, and even less valid to make any statement concerning human nature. You may have seen some things, but that means nothing outside of what you saw.

[le Duc]

That demonstrates that those atheists searched for a "higher power" in times of need. This, however, only applies to the atheists that you've observed in those situations. Therefore, it is illogical and invalid to make any conclusions concerning all atheists, and even less valid to make any statement concerning human nature. You may have seen some things, but that means nothing outside of what you saw.

Do we have to have three independent scientific research projects before we can form a perspective or opinion on anything?

I'm just sayin'...

[Brutananadilewski]

To each their own, and we are going to keep arguing in circles.. You unable to see the facts as I see them, and me unable to see the facts as you see them.. I suppose it all comes down to personal beliefs..

As I stated earlier.. I'll continue to believe in God, and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.. and if I'm wrong and their is nothing on the other side, then at worst I have spent my life trying to follow good principles and be a good person... If I'm right then I get to go to heaven...

As an Atheist if your right and there is not God.. Well there's no payoff, nothing worth apsiring too, no end goal.. since when you die, that's it.. worms eat you and the game is over... Theres no finish line... However if your wrong, then that would be a grave mistake indeed... But neither of us really know for sure...

So me being a betting man, and wanting to stack the odds in my favor would rather choose the more religious life in the hopes that their is something greater than us all.. than deny the fact and pay for it eternally if I am wrong...

3 different people have already told you that Pascal's wager is logically devoid of any substance, and has no merit. Why are you again bringing it up?

That basically sums it up.. Neither of us is going to back down, and this argument will continue basically forever... So I'll keep my beliefs that the nation was founded on Christ and you can keep yours that it wasnt, and we will continue to co-exist... That's the beautiful part about this country that we are free to believe as we choose...

Believing in something doesn't make it true.





Brutananadilewski added to this post, 2 minutes and 41 seconds later...

Do we have to have three independent scientific research projects before we can form a perspective or opinion on anything?

I'm just sayin'...

You can form an opinion on whatever you want. No one's stopping anyone from doing so. However, when a person expresses their opinion, that opinion is free game for critical analysis. There is no good in having a perspective if it doesn't accurately represent the world around you, since it is not only completely useless, but may in fact lead you astray in situations.

If someone wants to share a viewpoint, they better be ready to defend it. It doesn't have to be proven, it just has be demonstrated to be logically valid. Bandit's conclusions were not.

[le Duc]

You can form an opinion on whatever you want. No one's stopping anyone from doing so. However, when a person expresses their opinion, that opinion is free game for critical analysis. There is no good in having a perspective if it doesn't accurately represent the world around you, since it is not only completely useless, but may in fact lead you astray in situations.

If someone wants to share a viewpoint, they better be ready to defend it.

Fair enough.

[Bandit]

Guess we will just see in the after life... Oh wait you won't be there... lol...

[zibber]

Guess we will just see in the after life... Oh wait you won't be there... lol...

Is that like a clever in-joke, poking fun at the virtual endlessness of this discussion, what with your filibusteringly long posts and faith-based arguments, with which we should laugh along, or do you honestly believe we are not going to heaven while you are, and derive pleasure from that idea?

[blueback]

Well, he laughed after referencing:
1) "we"
2) the afterlife
3) "you"
...so I suppose he is laughing at one of those things.

1) "we" are supposed to share the joke
2) his beliefs aren't really that important
3) "you" are the butt of the joke

1) I make jokes about the afterlife all the time, usually about how my friends and I are going to hang out with all the interesting people for eternity while the losers make macaroni necklaces in heaven.
2) I often laugh at beliefs like the ones Bandit mentions, so if he laughs at them too it doesn't matter to me.
3) I have a hard time caring about the idea that a person who believes that only God can judge people has judged me as being worthy of hell. When someone contradicts themselves their opinion no longer matters to me because they are to incompetent to deserve an opinion.

1) funny
2) funny
3) meh, whatever

score: 2/3 funny = it deserves a laugh. . .like most things in life

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Doesn't American money have the slogan 'in god we trust' on it?

[Brutananadilewski]

Guess we will just see in the after life... Oh wait you won't be there... lol...


This is a Christian attitude and Christian behaviour? I didn't knwo that ol' J.C. told people that it was okay to be sarcastic, egocentric, self-righteous, and demeaning. I guess I missed the part in teh bible where he said it was okay to be an arrogant @ssh013. The hypocrisy is outstanding. I guess J.C. always loved to roll with the hypocrites?

[johnnyz86]

call me stupid but...

where in the 10 commandments does it have something against homosexuality?

regardless, even if many have nothing to do with us laws, there is no denying its influence. in addition, much of the US is inhabited by those that associate mercy and justice to a higher power, unfortunately.

[Bandit]

Is that like a clever in-joke, poking fun at the virtual endlessness of this discussion, what with your filibusteringly long posts and faith-based arguments, with which we should laugh along, or do you honestly believe we are not going to heaven while you are, and derive pleasure from that idea?

A joke directed as the potential endless nature of this debate.. Reminds me of the movie.."War Games" where the computer finally realizes that there cannot be a winner in Global Thermonuclear War...

[blueback]

A joke directed as the potential endless nature of this debate
Actually, your comment referenced the END of this debate. You specifically cited the idea that, at some point, you will end up in one place and the people you are debating with will end up somewhere else. . .and that the debate will be over.

At least have the balls to own your own opinions.

[Bandit]

Actually, your comment referenced the END of this debate. You specifically cited the idea that, at some point, you will end up in one place and the people you are debating with will end up somewhere else. . .and that the debate will be over.

At least have the balls to own your own opinions.


I do have the balls I promise you that, "Ever seen a flying squirrel?"..

I know where I stand and that is not going to change, however others continued to try and keep it going.. as I stated I'm on the left and they are on the right.. nothing will change...

[blueback]

LOL! I guess I shouldn't have expected a person who believes the Bible is real to understand metaphor. Thanks for making my point for me.

[Tocsin]

The seperation of church and state issue is a big one indeed.. but the reality of the situation is that this country was founded on religion..

Just look at the back of our paper currency and you will find one common saying..

"In God We Trust"

So by trying to go back and remove any form of religion from the goverment or the legal system is basically.. trying to tear down or erradicate the values upon which this country was founded.

The phrase "In God We Trust" was added (as you noted) back in 1864. The Civil War had been going on for four years. The South fought to defend their god-given right to own slaves. The North fought not only to maintain the union, but as a passionate crusade to end the abomination of slavery.

The phrase "under god" was officially added to the pledge of allegiance back in 1954, when the United States was just beginning to succumb to the cold war hysteria in a battle against "godless communism."

Both of these statements are part of our national consciousness now, but neither of them were part of any original intent - they were (and are) drastic alterations of original intent.

What they are a testament to is not the historic role of religion in our nation, but the power of fear during periods of confict, and its ability to distort and corrupt liberty - and history - when that fear is forged into policies to fulfill political ambitions.

I learned a few lessons in my time in the Marine Corps.. and that is that even an Atheist Prays when being shot at, or when they are afraid of losing their lives... It is human nature to call upon a higher being for help....

We had some Atheist Techs in our group, and when the call came in and were cruising the hummers through the city to the call.. and they start putting on that suit to go down range and deal with the problem.. They pray...because their scared, because they have no control and hope that a higher power, being, entity, the force whatever is looking out for them that day and can get them back home.. I've seen tears running down their faces when they make it back up range safely...

Regardless of how accurate your observation either is or isn't, what you are essentially saving is that in times of great peril many people will either form or maintain an irrational hope that there is "a higher power" which is (hopefully) protecting them.

While this irrational belief may ameliorate their fears and allow them to act without being paralized by the fear of their peril at the moment, is there some way in which these irrational comforts offer enough promise of improvement to the conduct of government to merit their consideration in its exercise?


I'll keep my beliefs that the nation was founded on Christ and you can keep yours that it wasnt, and we will continue to co-exist... That's the beautiful part about this country that we are free to believe as we choose...

The ugly reality of this country is that there are many people who would claim to share your believes who are working their damndest to make sure that we are NOT free to believe as we choose.

"We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe."
--Gary Bauer

"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost. As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."
--D. James Kennedy, founder of Coral Ridge Ministries

"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and holy communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."
--Gary North

"We are approaching a time when Christians, especially, may have to declare the social contract between Enlightenment rationalists and Biblical believers - which formed the basis of the constitution written at our nation's founding - null and void."
--Cal Thomas

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good ... if a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple. Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country... We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism. We want theocracy."
--Randall Terry, former leader of "Operation Rescue"

That contradiction between claiming to support liberty by some christians while others are working to dismantle it is what makes many atheists suspicious.

**In ironic and comic coincidence, as I was writing this, the ground began to shake, and I went to watch the doors and windows of my house moving in relation to the ground outside.

I did not pray.

I was not being punished.

I did not see this as proof of god, I saw it as proof that I live in California.

[scott06]

I believe that the ten commandments never existed. I think that if we we would follow what we know in our hearts to be correct way of living then we there would be ten commitments that God(higher spirit) would make to us and we would make to the spirit.
That we no longer have the need to steel
the nead to the things we know we know is not serving our higher purpose

So in escence no one would be needed to be commanded to do anything

[127001]

I've seen diehard atheist professors of law say straight forward that if people would just follow the 10 commandments, we wouldn't need a legal system.



Indeed. If you read each of the 10 commandments in their original contexts, you'll find that they actually are a very good set of rules for groups of humans to live by. (Hint: Don't interpret them all 100% literally)