'The Dark Knight:' Spoilers Allowed!

[TheLastMohican]

A warning to all...
This thread contains spoilers!


If you are still reading this, you alone are responsible for the spoilers you find. That said, I shall move on to the spoilers themselves.

I just went to see The Dark Knight, and I think it is my new favorite comic book adaptation. I'll have more to say later when I have more time.
One thing in particular to discuss: I think Rachel is dead. My parents both think that she is not. I think that seeing her hair catch on fire, followed by shots of the building blowing up pretty much guarantee that she did not somehow survive. However, my parents think that since we did not "see" her die (I guess watching her burn to death until there was certainty), she must be returning, somehow. Thoughts? Is she dead or alive?

[Americano]

It would be hard to show her burn alive with the movie's PG-13 rating.

[Mozzes]

There's no chance she's alive. I think that the explosion was large enough to level a building guarantees that she's dead. No way she's coming back in a sequel. I mean, that was the idea - only one of them could be saved and Joker intentionally led Batman to Harvey because he knew what Rachel's death would do to both of them.

Now whether Two Face is dead is another matter. I think he survived and is secretly locked up in Arkham Asylum to prevent him from ruining Harvey's image. And considering how much money this movie is going to make it's inconceivable that they won't make another so I wonder who the next villain is going to be. May Ahnauld will reprise his role as Mr. Freeze *crosses fingers* :laugh:

[SShack]

The comic book rule of "If you don't see the body, they aren't really dead" tends to only apply to the heroes/villains, so I'd say she's dead.

We did see Harvey's body, though, so unless he was playing possum somehow, I'm not sure how they'd bring him back.

Heath really did an excellent job. It's a shame we won't see him again.

[Mozzes]

The comic book rule of "If you don't see the body, they aren't really dead" tends to only apply to the heroes/villains, so I'd say she's dead.

We did see Harvey's body, though, so unless he was playing possum somehow, I'm not sure how they'd bring him back.

Heath really did an excellent job. It's a shame we won't see him again.

That rule also only applies to comic book characters - Rachel was Nolan's creation and doesn't appear in the comics. It also appears that Nolan is going for a realistic approach to the movies which would be another nail in her coffin. Likely the same for Two Face as well.

[lambpox]

I think they had to kill her off, Rachel. She's not even a real character in the comic book series, you know. She just filled in a role as Batman's love interest, and the catalyst for Harvey's transformation into Two-Face. I think killing her off will introduce a new love interest; possibly Catwoman?! Who knows. Yet, I think Harvey is still alive. They wouldn't kill his character off, yet. He's one of the most interesting characters in the Batman universe!

I LOVED this movie, it was just amazing. Heath was just brilliant; I adored his mannerisms and the way he made himself just...so evil. When he had the fake batman tied up in the room and was videotaping him, and yelled "LOOK AT ME" in the craziest, most sinister voice, it gave me chills! It was crazy how he could lower his voice a few octaves. I also liked the part where it was just a single shot of his head out of the window of the speeding car, letting the wind blow against his hair and face. That was beautiful. And the pencil trick! I laughed so hard.

Hopefully the next villain is Bane or something! I don't really want them to return the Joker, since Heath did such a good job, and I don't think ANYONE can top that.

[TheLastMohican]

It would be hard to show her burn alive with the movie's PG-13 rating.

They did it for Anakin in Revenge of the Sith.

Now whether Two Face is dead is another matter. I think he survived and is secretly locked up in Arkham Asylum to prevent him from ruining Harvey's image. And considering how much money this movie is going to make it's inconceivable that they won't make another so I wonder who the next villain is going to be.

They certainly put themselves in a tough spot, didn't they? They killed off Two-Face, and the villain they left alive will be very difficult to bring back. I don't think there are any actors anxious to fill Ledger's shoes. If only Two-Face had lived and the Joker had died, it would be smooth sailing.
I like your idea about Arkham. Nolan just might read this thread and start writing the script. :suspicious: It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Two-Face to be alive, and it seemed a bit obvious that nobody was making sure of it. The fall wasn't that far (Batman was fine, even weighted down in his suit), and there wasn't any sign that Harvey's neck was broken. I do hope they bring him back.

We did see Harvey's body, though, so unless he was playing possum somehow, I'm not sure how they'd bring him back.


He could have been unconscious. There was suspiciously no blood to be seen, and his body was not contorted in any injurious way.

That rule also only applies to comic book characters - Rachel was Nolan's creation and doesn't appear in the comics.

It was a bold move to kill her off. She was the only major female character. Her death really shook the feeling of "immunity" for the core characters (from the audience's perspective).
Actually I don't mind it at all. Holmes was painful, and Gyllenhaal was the weak link of the strong cast. The character wasn't that compelling compared to the others.


Other things: there is so much to talk about in this movie. It occurred to me that any one of the Joker's schemes could be isolated and made into its own movie. There was a lot of creativity in the story. Consider a hit like Speed: just one premise, just one big setup by the bad guy that drives the plot. Sure, there are subplots, gaps in bridges, drive-through emergency rooms etc., but it all is built around the the premise that there is a bomb on the bus. Now look at the Joker's track record in a single movie. He brilliantly organizes a bank robbery (the brilliance being more in his triangulation and murder of his fellow robbers than in the plan of entry and exit), arranges for the abductions and potential deaths of Harvey and Rachel, blows up a hospital (with the nice twist dealing with the blabbing lawyer), and sets up the imaginative "social experiment," with many smaller acts in between to pump up the hysteria. The film is very rich with ideas and layered complexity, yet the pacing was not too hectic. Still, a lot to take in 2.5 hours. I want to watch it again within the year.





TheLastMohican added to this post, 6 minutes and 30 seconds later...

It was crazy how he could lower his voice a few octaves.

His voice was really an achievement. When I listened to him speaking in interviews, it was surprising that he was able to sound so different in the movie. He created an entirely different voice, with its own high and lows and unique inflections, as if he got a different set of vocal cords. He did say it was the hardest part of the role.

Hopefully the next villain is Bane or something! I don't really want them to return the Joker, since Heath did such a good job, and I don't think ANYONE can top that.

I agree that it would be too awkward to bring in another actor at this point, at least while Nolan is directing. They should bring back Two-Face and give Scarecrow a bigger role again; they play off each other well. Things are pretty nicely set up for the next movie if Two-Face isn't dead, even though it would've been great if Ledger was still around. I think his performance is the new standard, and for a long time we'll be waiting for someone who can improve upon it.

[Mozzes]

There are a couple of interesting options for female characters as well as villains. The first is Selina Kyle/Catwoman whose tangled relationship with Batman as well as her sometimes villainess / sometimes heroine portrayal in the comics possesses the kind of moral ambiguity that might make her an ideal character in Nolan's Gotham City.

Of course they'd have to careful to completely dissociate it from the horrible 2004 Catwoman movie.

The other option is Harley Quinn taking over where the Joker left off, though like the Joker, would probably require a strong performance and writing to avoid camp.

[lambpox]

I don't think you can have a Harley Quinn without a Joker! She has some dependent personality disorder going on...you need the Joker to "complete" her, in my own opinion.

[TheLastMohican]

I wanted to mention the score as well. The portions for the Joker were so good because they were simple and strained. I actually didn't always notice them at first, as they were skillfully eased into the soundtrack.

[GrimWizard]

I thought the movie was great, Definitely best movie of the summer. The only problem I have is that there was no real overarching storyline. The entire movie was just a set of scenarios of Batman Vs Joker. Also, in the "choose which ferry is destroyed" scenario, there is no way that both sides would choose not to push the button.

As far as new villains for the next movie goes, consider the fact that they seem to not want to deal with all the "supernatural" batman villains, ie clayface, poison ivy, Mr. Freeze. They even ripped the Lazarus Pits away from Ra's al Ghul. This limits the villain choices quite a bit, and most have already been in a movie or two...

[TheLastMohican]

Also, in the "choose which ferry is destroyed" scenario, there is no way that both sides would choose not to push the button.


Actually the civilians did choose by popular vote to blow up the prisoners' ferry, so it wasn't that unrealistic. In both cases it came down to one person, not group behavior. The businessman didn't have the guts to flip the switch himself (and who would?), and the prisoner was simply the only one with enough conviction to enforce his opinion. It's not that all the people actually decided that way, just that everyone was hesitant to take the leap.

For real "justice," each detonator could really be for its own ferry instead of the other.

[SShack]

I actually liked the ferry scene because I just don't like hero movies where everybody except the hero and his friends are dumb, weak and helpless to make the hero appear stronger. I have a similar fondness for that scene in Spider-man 2 where the folks on the train help Spidey after he saves them.

I think they might take the Riddler and give him a serious alteration for the movie. Asking questions about the nature of society and anarchy seems to be a theme with these movies, and who is better to ask questions than the Riddler? Also it could wipe away the memory of Jim Carrey in the role (though my mind has kindly done so for me). Or what about that guy with the ventriloquist dummy?

Oh, editing to add: Grimwizard, I do think there was an overarching storyline. The Joker was trying to put Batman into a scenario where he had no choice but to kill, the one rule he wouldn't break. He was trying to get folks throughout the movie to "break the rules" that hold society together.

[TheLastMohican]

I actually liked the ferry scene because I just don't like hero movies where everybody except the hero and his friends are dumb, weak and helpless to make the hero appear stronger. I have a similar fondness for that scene in Spider-man 2 where the folks on the train help Spidey after he saves them.


That was a great scene, especially Doc Ock's line: "Very well." :laugh: One of the great tongue-in-cheek moments.

[MacGuffin]

Other than the "Batman voice" annoying me at times, the only criticism I have is they should've left the second half of Two Face's story for the next sequel.

They crammed too much into this one. Give us more Bruce Wayne.

[TheLastMohican]

Other than the "Batman voice" annoying me at times, the only criticism I have is they should've left the second half of Two Face's story for the next sequel.


Bale's voice does sound too fake. He is the best Bruce Wayne (both the playboy version and the genuine version), and Michael Keaton was the best Batman. Bale's Batman voice sounds like a case of strep throat, which isn't quite so intimidating.

[MacGuffin]

Bale's voice does sound too fake. He is the best Bruce Wayne (both the playboy version and the genuine version), and Michael Keaton was the best Batman. Bale's Batman voice sounds like a case of strep throat, which isn't quite so intimidating.
He sounded like he was trying to do an imitation of your avatar.

[TheLastMohican]

He sounded like he was trying to do an imitation of your avatar.

:laugh: So true.
It's interesting to note what a great job Ledger did with his voice, compared to Bale's job. But it's possible that Bale simply can't do a lot with his vocal cords. I can't imagine him hitting the high notes like Ledger did.

[lambpox]

Well...I guess Batman needed to have some ridiculous, deep voice to hide his identity. Sometimes Bale made his voice sound very silly, but think about it. A superhero needs to hide his voice as well as his face. Spiderman, I could never believe! How did Mary Jane not know that was Peter under the mask?! It's hilarious.

Bale is the best Bruce Wayne though. He's excellent at playing those rich, yuppie characters. Watch American Psycho, he was great as Patrick Bateman.

[MacGuffin]

I'm not so good at voices. People expect me to recognize them on the phone, and except for my mother I never do.

[Rohsiph]

I don't think you can have a Harley Quinn without a Joker! She has some dependent personality disorder going on...you need the Joker to "complete" her, in my own opinion.

I actually like the idea of Harley Quinn breaking Joker out of jail, and then becoming his 'right hand' so to speak, carrying out his orders and being the 'face' of his operation. It could be a good way of avoiding problems with bringing in too much on-screen Joker without losing the character.

I think the movie should have ended shortly after Rachel's death (and to have her survive the explosion would trivialize a lot of what Nolan has achieved with his vision of the Batman world). Except for the few extra Joker scenes, it seemed to me like the movie was floundering, desperately looking for a hopeful note to end on.

That said, I enjoyed the film. This has been a pretty good year for movies, even though the trend of needless sequels and remakes keeps on going.

[Beery Swine]

I've never really had a favorite movie, never really saw the point of trying to narrow it down, but this movie, until further notice, easily qualifies as my favorite movie. TDK is spectacular, in a league of it's own, an instant classic, a masterpiece, easily worthy of best picture oscar.

As far as a sequel with the Joker: they fucking better not!Also, in the "choose which ferry is destroyed" scenario, there is no way that both sides would choose not to push the button

That's something I didn't buy, either. You would, however, have to think of other people who, no matter what the outcome of "the vote," would have fought to ensure there choice was made, whether to push or not to push....the only criticism I have is they should've left the second half of Two Face's story for the next sequel.

I was a little disappointed with that, too. He's too cool of a character to just be given a small subplot.

They crammed too much into this one. Give us more Bruce Wayne.

I was also disappointed with the lack of further character development of BW/Batman.

One other thing I didn't like was the theme towards the end of the movie about how people need to be lied to. The hell with that: if people go crazy with the knowledge of the truth, let 'em kill themselves. The truth is never something to be hidden or misrepresented.

Even after these few complaints I think this is the closest movie to "perfect" I've seen so far and I think it's going to be a very long time before I see one I like more.

[Jgib5328]

Other than the "Batman voice" annoying me at times, the only criticism I have is they should've left the second half of Two Face's story for the next sequel.

They crammed too much into this one. Give us more Bruce Wayne.

I think the Batman TAS did a great Batman voice. It was almost like a real speaking voice, but really intimidating.

[Claptonian]

I think the Batman TAS did a great Batman voice. It was almost like a real speaking voice, but really intimidating.

Kevin Conroy FTW. He's still the greatest Batman ever.





Claptonian added to this post, 3 minutes and 26 seconds later...

They crammed too much into this one. Give us more Bruce Wayne.

Bruce Wayne is irrelevant. If you look at the most influential and well respected Batman stories, Bruce Wayne is hardly a factor.

That's one thing Nolan and the gang have gotten right, unlike the Spider-Man franchise, where it's all about Peter Parker and Spidey inexplicably loses his mask during every major fight scene, Nolan understand that Batman is the real person and the "secrety identity" is the facade.

[Hitorijime]

Personally, I can't stand characters like Rachel. Reminiscent of Kirsten Dunst in Spiderman, she just seems too whiny for my tastes. Especially since, being a decisive person myself, I don't like seeing protagonist females being the indecisive heartbreaker. To my way of thinking, she needs to either support her superhero boyfriend or make the decision to lead a different life. None of this "I'll wait for you if you ever give this up" junk. I was really glad that Alfred burned her note to Bruce, because the last thing Bruce needed was to realize that Rachel had basically lied to him.

On a different note, however, perhaps someone can explain something to me. I was so caught up in the action of the movie that I missed some of the details behind the whole ferry scene. Was the entire city supposed to be staked out on just those two ferries? Or were people hiding in other places? I find it highly unlikely that an entire city could fit on one ferry, and the city's criminals on the other.

[Mozzes]

On a different note, however, perhaps someone can explain something to me. I was so caught up in the action of the movie that I missed some of the details behind the whole ferry scene. Was the entire city supposed to be staked out on just those two ferries? Or were people hiding in other places? I find it highly unlikely that an entire city could fit on one ferry, and the city's criminals on the other.

No Gotham City has a population in the millions. The two ferries just happen the be the focus of the Joker's game.

[weirdel]

On Batman's voice;
I was thinking this through some parts in the movie. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) XD
I started feeling bad for the people around Batman, trying to understand him (and magically doing so), so this was a hilarious treat for me. :D
Also, this Joker's mannerisms are pretty close to Heath's. ^^

L.P.E.

[searcher]

For real "justice," each detonator could really be for its own ferry instead of the other.

That's what I actually thought was happening.

[Daimon]

What i found extraordinary with Heath's Joker is how layer upon layer we saw how diabolical the character was, and that his Joy was in corrupting your psyche and depleting you of Hope. Although perhaps not as chilling as Anthony Hopkin's Lecter or Javier Bardiem's Anton Chigurh, Heath Ledger's performance was morbidly, fascinatingly, illuminating. I was bracing myself each time he was in a scene, more notably after the "disappearing pencil" scene....If ever Heath's performance does receive Academy Award recognition, and it is awarded to him, i hope it will not be a sympathetic win just because he has passed on. Far from genre's like " A Knight's Tale" who would think Heath Ledger would have been capable of this stellar performance?

Perhaps in Nolan's next installation, they should place the focus back to Bruce Wayne's own tortured psyche...as for another Catwoman, i dunno, the dynamism between Michael Keaton and Michelle Pfeiffer played out very well and is still well remembered (as well as the unfortunate Catwoman movie)....it would be nice to see though how they will re-introduce a love angle for Bruce/Batman after Rachel, and how that vibe will be translated to Nolan's retelling that is more angsty and industrial then the prior movies.....

[Mozzes]

That's what I actually thought was happening.

I thought that each detonator would destroy both boats.

[SShack]

A gossip site (whose name escapes me at the moment) released some alleged information about the possibilities for the next movie. Spoilers below:


Allegedly they're trying to get Johnny Depp to play the Riddler and Phillip Seymour Hoffman as the Penguin. I can see a possible adaptation of the Riddler for their style, but the Penguin mystifies me. They're not going to give the guy actual birds to control. That doesn't fit with the film style. Too wacky.

[lambpox]

I remember Nolan said he ruled out the possibility of the Penguin and Catwoman being in the next movie, opting for characters who have yet to be showcased. Yet, the Riddler was in Batman Forever, so. Johnny Depp as the Riddler...now that's something. He might be able to pull it off, who knows? I like him.

[sam988]

Do you guys think that in the Joker's "social experiment" with the two boats full of explosives, if we were in real, non-hollywoodian life, people in one of the boats would blow the other one?

[Mozzes]

Do you guys think that in the Joker's "social experiment" with the two boats full of explosives, if we were in real, non-hollywoodian life, people in one of the boats would blow the other one?

Maybe I'm as ugly on the inside as the Joker, but yes, I do think someone would get blown up.

[thephoenix1414]

I've never really had a favorite movie, never really saw the point of trying to narrow it down, but this movie, until further notice, easily qualifies as my favorite movie. TDK is spectacular, in a league of it's own, an instant classic, a masterpiece, easily worthy of best picture oscar.

As far as a sequel with the Joker: they fucking better not!

That's something I didn't buy, either. You would, however, have to think of other people who, no matter what the outcome of "the vote," would have fought to ensure there choice was made, whether to push or not to push.

I was a little disappointed with that, too. He's too cool of a character to just be given a small subplot.



I was also disappointed with the lack of further character development of BW/Batman.

One other thing I didn't like was the theme towards the end of the movie about how people need to be lied to. The hell with that: if people go crazy with the knowledge of the truth, let 'em kill themselves. The truth is never something to be hidden or misrepresented.

Even after these few complaints I think this is the closest movie to "perfect" I've seen so far and I think it's going to be a very long time before I see one I like more.



At first I thought that too, about the need to be lied to, but the more I think about it, I think that he's right. For instance at the theater, halfway through the movie a woman left with her kids. Maybe, that's kind of where they're going with that. Think about it, would Einstein's work (yes this is cliche) have been worth it if he had just been given the answer? It's better for people to work out the answer themselves. The city of Gotham is almost childlike in morality they can't handle the truth yet. It's all or nothing to them, good or bad, no gray areas. That's what the Joker and Batman, Dent is that gray area of good and bad, that they aren't ready for yet. What batman will become in the next movie, and at the end of this movie. Where Gordon will carry on "Dent's" cause.

[enWTFp]

I remember Nolan said he ruled out the possibility of the Penguin and Catwoman being in the next movie, opting for characters who have yet to be showcased. Yet, the Riddler was in Batman Forever, so. Johnny Depp as the Riddler...now that's something. He might be able to pull it off, who knows? I like him.
Yep. I suggest they introduce The Mad Hatter (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). For example, Robin Williams is old enough and odd enough for the part, why not.

Then, of course, a good possibility is to cease the Nolan series now. It can't go anywhere, but down from here. Something tells me they won't stop, though.

[lambpox]

Yes! I love the Mad Hatter!

A little sad note to mention relating to the dark knight - actor Morgan Freeman was involved in a serious car accident yesterday. Let's hope he's alright. :( He's one of my favorite actors...

[Jughead]

A few quick thoughts / opinions.

- Rachel is dead.
- Two Face is alive.
- The soundtrack was absolutely amazing.
- Heath Ledger stole the show.
- The Joker is now my favourite-est super illain ever, and an INTP, in my opinion.
- Johnny Depp as The Riddler would be absolutely fantastic.
- Rachel / Mary-Jane / Lois annoy the hell out of me. They're much too stereotypical, and strong superhero characters should not fall in love with them.

[SShack]

I'm not a big fan of the Mad Hatter. I'm only going off the cartoons (I never was a Batman comic reader), but I could never see the point of him or where he fit among Batman's villains. He was like the Scarecrow, but less scary. I felt the same way about Scarface/Ventriloquist. They seem like gimmick villains. I think most Batman villains start as gimmick villains, but the good ones eventually rise above it.

Granted, of course, they could make him a whole lot scarier for the movie, like they'd probably do for the Riddler.

[sam988]

- Heath Ledger stole the show.



I think that a combination of factors made people think like this. The first factor is that he died, which created a lot of hype around his Joker role. The second factor is that his death, allied to Batman's movie expectation by a lot of fans combined to create a LOT of hype around the movie and his role there.

The third factor, and the most significant one, is that the Joker is really not a very hard character to be interpreted (although it requires a good actor, so he doesn't screw things up). It's true that no actor could have made the Joker the same way Heath did, but that's because every Joker would be different according to each actor's style. The producers just ask the actor to "let loose" (since we're talking about a crazy character), and see what happens. I'm fairly certain that some other actors could also have done a magnificent job as the Joker. Their Jokers would be different, but we would think that they were the best actors for the role for the simple fact that we couldn't think of a Joker with a different style since we would get used to the style used by the actor interpreting it.

[MacGuffin]

- The Joker is now my favourite-est super illain ever, and an INTP, in my opinion.

ENTP. INTPs aren't quite so charismatic.

I think that a combination of factors made people think like this. The first factor is that he died, which created a lot of hype around his Joker role. The second factor is that his death, allied to Batman's movie expectation by a lot of fans combined to create a LOT of hype around the movie and his role there.

The third factor, and the most significant one, is that the Joker is really not a very hard character to be interpreted (although it requires a good actor, so he doesn't screw things up). It's true that no actor could have made the Joker the same way Heath did, but that's because every Joker would be different according to each actor's style. The producers just ask the actor to "let loose" (since we're talking about a crazy character), and see what happens. I'm fairly certain that some other actors could also have done a magnificent job as the Joker. Their Jokers would be different, but we would think that they were the best actors for the role for the simple fact that we couldn't think of a Joker with a different style since we would get used to the style used by the actor interpreting it.
Fourth factor, Heath Ledger was absolutely stunning. The walk out of the hospital in the nurse uniform had the whole theater laughing, but it was nervous laughter. Other actors might've been good, but few would have been that good.

I thought it would be amazing if he equaled the hype, but he actually exceeded it.

[Hitorijime]

Rachel / Mary-Jane / Lois annoy the hell out of me. They're much too stereotypical, and strong superhero characters should not fall in love with them.

So glad someone shares my opinion!

[Jughead]

I think that a combination of factors made people think like this. The first factor is that he died, which created a lot of hype around his Joker role. The second factor is that his death, allied to Batman's movie expectation by a lot of fans combined to create a LOT of hype around the movie and his role there.

The third factor, and the most significant one, is that the Joker is really not a very hard character to be interpreted (although it requires a good actor, so he doesn't screw things up). It's true that no actor could have made the Joker the same way Heath did, but that's because every Joker would be different according to each actor's style. The producers just ask the actor to "let loose" (since we're talking about a crazy character), and see what happens. I'm fairly certain that some other actors could also have done a magnificent job as the Joker. Their Jokers would be different, but we would think that they were the best actors for the role for the simple fact that we couldn't think of a Joker with a different style since we would get used to the style used by the actor interpreting it.

The Joker is not crazy. That's the beauty of it, and why Heath Ledger did such a fantastic job - the Joker is not crazy. Also, I wasn't thinking of the fact that he was dead at all during the movie.

ENTP. INTPs aren't quite so charismatic

You're probably right, but I want him to be INTP :(. Can't we be charismatic if we wanted to?

So glad someone shares my opinion!

:thumbsup:

[MacGuffin]

You're probably right, but I want him to be INTP :(. Can't we be charismatic if we wanted to?
Yeah, but not likely. Have to go with the most likely.

[SShack]

The Joker was clever, but actually not all that charismatic. He may not have been crazy, but the folks who followed him were. Everybody who was "sane" was put off by his ranting.

Editing to add: Actually, I think he was ENTJ. He had his own ideas about what he wanted to do and accomplish and was successful in recruiting the minions to carry it out.

[Jughead]

Yeah, but not likely. Have to go with the most likely.

Damn objectivity :/.

[lambpox]

My twin noted something while we were about to go to sleep last night - the joker is a master planner. Sure, he said that he didn't like the idea of it; he liked how he just goes with the flow (taking note of the hospital scene with Dent)...but, how could he have set up the ferries, the attempted shooting of the mayor, the brainwashing and killing of Rachel, without some SERIOUS planning? That's why I think he might just be an ENTJ...or an ENTP with a borderline P/J.

I also hate the idea of Rachel. She was only put in for the love interest aspect that all superhero movies need; in the comics Batman never had a love interest, except for a few minor acquaintances that only lasted for a short period of time...however, with Selina Kyle, Catwoman, they were married in one instance.

[MacGuffin]

What does J have to do with planning?

NTs are strategists. Lack of J doesn't make one an SP.

[bricklayer]

ENTP. INTPs aren't quite so charismatic.

There's no way he was an extrovert.

[SShack]

There's no way he was an extrovert.

I go back and forth on whether he's and extrovert or introvert. On one hand, all of his ideas are inspired by his perceptions of others' behavior or motivations, which is very much how an extroverted NT manifests and plans.

On the other hand, though he claims to understand the behavior and motives of others, his plans are internally developed ideas to screw with them or show them that they're wrong. That seems more like an introvert pushing his ideas out into the world. And his misjudging of human behavior is what causes his plans to fail at the end, though that could be from either being an introvert or a flawed extrovert (given that villains have to have fatal flaws).

[curiousjane]

Personally, I can't stand characters like Rachel. Reminiscent of Kirsten Dunst in Spiderman, she just seems too whiny for my tastes. Especially since, being a decisive person myself, I don't like seeing protagonist females being the indecisive heartbreaker. To my way of thinking, she needs to either support her superhero boyfriend or make the decision to lead a different life. None of this "I'll wait for you if you ever give this up" junk.

Well, this isn't about Batman, but Mary Jane does this in the newspaper comics of Spider Man, doesn't she? And so does the wife of ... whathisface ... The Phantom? The guy who wears a purple suit and rules the jungle?





curiousjane added to this post, 3 minutes and 2 seconds later...

As for the movie, I personally enjoyed it thoroughly.

But then, I'm a Christian Bale fan, since his Newsies and Swing Kids days ...

What I admire most about him as an actor is his ability to completely absorb a character. I recall he wouldn't even speak in his normal British accent when doing interviews for the Batman movies, since he said it would be doing a dishonor to an American "hero".

Also, the Nolan movies are so gritty, so real-feeling ... that despite the over-the-top capabilities of Bruce Wayne, Batman, and the villains, it came across as believable.

And yes, I think Rachel is dead.

[TheLastMohican]

What I admire most about him as an actor is his ability to completely absorb a character. I recall he wouldn't even speak in his normal British accent when doing interviews for the Batman movies, since he said it would be doing a dishonor to an American "hero".

Welsh! Yes, that was quite impressive. I wonder if Heath Ledger would have stayed in character as well, if he had been alive. It would have been something.

And yes, I think Rachel is dead.

I was thinking: we know that she was at least partially burned. What if Batman 3 features the debut of Mrs. Two-Face, the angst-ridden Maggie Gyllenhaal with computer-generated scar tissue? Especially if Two-Face's old coin was left lying around for her to find...

[Jughead]

I go back and forth on whether he's and extrovert or introvert. On one hand, all of his ideas are inspired by his perceptions of others' behavior or motivations, which is very much how an extroverted NT manifests and plans.

On the other hand, though he claims to understand the behavior and motives of others, his plans are internally developed ideas to screw with them or show them that they're wrong. That seems more like an introvert pushing his ideas out into the world. And his misjudging of human behavior is what causes his plans to fail at the end, though that could be from either being an introvert or a flawed extrovert (given that villains have to have fatal flaws).

Yeah, me too.

[curiousjane]

Welsh!

:embarassed:

Oops. And I'm such a fan!

[ssrprotege]

I just watched the Dark Knight. Very great, with interesting insights on how society works and human nature. For that reason, I really liked Joker the mastermind - that evil mind knows how to observe the world in a unique perspective....."Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" certainly rings true, as far as the Joker is concerned.





ssrprotege added to this post, 1 minutes and 29 seconds later...


- Rachel / Mary-Jane / Lois annoy the hell out of me. They're much too stereotypical.

I agree indeed....

[rewhu]

There's no chance she's alive. I think that the explosion was large enough to level a building guarantees that she's dead. No way she's coming back in a sequel. I mean, that was the idea - only one of them could be saved and Joker intentionally led Batman to Harvey because he knew what Rachel's death would do to both of them.

Agreed on both points.

Also, I can't think of a single character that would fit her new physical description if by some insane turn of event she did manage to survive.

[hum]

well, yesterday I got to see this movie (finally). At first I was a little afraid to be dissapointed with the joker because everyone said that it was the most evil performance ever..and things like that, and most of the cases when people tells me this I find out that I may be way more evil than those characters.
the thing is, I didn't got dissapointed at all with this one. Heath just did a wonderful job (and I don't say it because he's already dead or something..it's just how I feel), and it made it difficult (for me, at least) not to like the joker.
I also liked the fact that his performance changed my opinion about batman (before this movie I thought that batman was just a bad joke).

if there's a sequel I want the story to be really aside from the joker (maybe they could just say that he scaped or something, though it would be irrational to show the wonderful joker as a coward..).they could focus on other villians (like it was said before)

random tought=I can't stop thinking about the origin of his scars, I mean, I don't think that both stories can be true (his psycho dad and his stressful wife..) or did I miss something he said? (were them supposed to be lies?)

Do you guys think that in the Joker's "social experiment" with the two boats full of explosives, if we were in real, non-hollywoodian life, people in one of the boats would blow the other one?

yep.

as for all the MBTI theories, I think he's an E.

[enWTFp]

Maybe I'm dumb, slow thinker, or I simply haven't read enough of the Internet comments and analysis about this movie, but I just realized something. This is the modern version of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Now it is: The Light, the Dark and the Chaos.

[TheLastMohican]

The Dark Knight got only one Golden Globe nomination, for Heath Ledger as best supporting actor. Out of all the categories, I thought it would get more.
Also, why was Heath Ledger entered in the supporting actor category? He had just as much screen time as Bale.

[Jinxu]

Who knows. Yet, I think Harvey is still alive. They wouldn't kill his character off, yet. He's one of the most interesting characters in the Batman universe!

The Dark Knight is now one of my favorite all time movies. I knew before watching it, that Harvey Dent would die in the end. My reasoning is that since the director was aiming for realism, then it would be difficult to bring back as Two-Face as a major villain for the third film. Two-Face may be half scarred, but he is still just a normal man. Add to that he was the ex-DA, no criminal would follow him. Every criminal in Gotham would probably try to kill him if given the chance. Pity, because I liked the character.


Hopefully the next villain is Bane or something! I don't really want them to return the Joker, since Heath did such a good job, and I don't think ANYONE can top that.
I heard rumors that the next villains are The Penguin and The Riddler. I hope it would be Posion Ivy and Mr. Freeze. But I doubt it, since the director is aiming for realism.

[Claptonian]

The Dark Knight got only one Golden Globe nomination, for Heath Ledger as best supporting actor. Out of all the categories, I thought it would get more.


Some people can't see passed the phrase "comic book movie."

[TheLastMohican]

Some people can't see passed the phrase "comic book movie."
Too true.

Fortunately the Academy already got over the fantasy hump in 2004 (awarding Best Picture and 10 other awards to RotK), so there is yet hope for The Dark Knight at the Oscars, being on the (far) realistic end of comic book movies. It does seem like a weak year for Oscar magnets, so there aren't any other huge favorites hogging the market. Hopefully an example will be set so the Golden Globe voters can get their act together in future years.

Just how good does a comic book movie have to be before most people can get past that phrase? I wonder.

[Uberfuhrer]

Some people can't see passed the phrase "comic book movie."

Or the fact that it wasn't even that great of a movie.

[TheLastMohican]

Or the fact that it wasn't even that great of a movie.

Ye heretic!

[Uberfuhrer]

Seriously, the movie was filled with plot holes.

The action was generic at best. Although perhaps it could have been helped by a more energetic music score.

The special effects were not that special.

It was highly unimaginative.

And Gotham City was so obviously Chicago. I mean why call it Gotham City if you're not going to give a Gothic feel to it?

And the "symbolism" amounted to little more than emo babble.

Hellboy II was the best comic book movie of the year.

[TheLastMohican]

Seriously, the movie was filled with plot holes.

What were they?


The action was generic at best. Although perhaps it could have been helped by a more energetic music score.

The special effects were not that special.


I agree that the action sequences were nothing fantastic, but I found them satisfactory. The focus is less on the action than in most other comic book movies anyway, since there are no superpowers involved (except when there is crossover, which Nolan is unlikely to include).


It was highly unimaginative.


I thought it was highly imaginative. There isn't really a way to argue that, though.


And Gotham City was so obviously Chicago. I mean why call it Gotham City if you're not going to give a Gothic feel to it?


As far as I know, Chicago has no ferries.


And the "symbolism" amounted to little more than emo babble.

I don't know what symbolism you're referring to, but I didn't notice any of what I would consider "emo babble." :huh:

Hellboy II was the best comic book movie of the year.
I haven't seen that one, but I would have thought that both Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk were better. What did you think of those?

[Uberfuhrer]

What were they?

Example: How did the Joker get all the barrels into the hospital without anyone noticing?

I haven't seen that one, but I would have thought that both Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk were better. What did you think of those?

Iron Man was pretty good. The Incredible Hulk was everything but incredible. The Ang Lee version was better.

The best summer movies of the year were Indiana Jones 4 and Speed Racer.

[TheLastMohican]

Example: How did the Joker get all the barrels into the hospital without anyone noticing?


I had wondered about that, and the ferries too. As for the hospital, I don't think all the explosives consisted of gasoline barrels. Those would not be the most efficient, and I think the Joker would just smuggle in more manageable things like dynamite. He also had a large workforce at his disposal, after taking over most of the city's mob assets, and he could have even taken advantage of the commotion that came after his television announcement to place a few of the more obvious charges.

[Claptonian]

Or the fact that it wasn't even that great of a movie.

I could respond to this, but let me put it this way...


The Incredible Hulk was everything but incredible. The Ang Lee version was better.


This statement, your appreciation of Schumacher's Batman movies, and your prior statement that a movie only needs good special effects to be "halfway decent" make your opinions (at least pertaining to movies) totally irrelevant to me. :laugh: No offense.

[MacGuffin]

The Dark Knight was, as it goes with popular entertaining movies, as good as any of the Star Wars movies.

As you can see by my avatar, I DON'T MAKE THAT STATEMENT LIGHTLY!

[TheLastMohican]

The Dark Knight was, as it goes with popular entertaining movies, as good as any of the Star Wars movies.


It was much better than The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. The original Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back remain superior in my opinion, but only relative to their time, in which they were ground-breaking.

[mind_wander]

I love this movie. It's well done; I'm not sure how many of you seen the Joker interrogation scene with the Batman. Here is a harilious spoof; To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . I laughed so hard and can't help to see it twice. Enjoy folks :)





mind_wander added to this post, 4 minutes and 48 seconds later...

A few quick thoughts / opinions.

- Rachel is dead.
- Two Face is alive.
- The soundtrack was absolutely amazing.
- Heath Ledger stole the show.
- The Joker is now my favourite-est super illain ever, and an INTP, in my opinion.
- Johnny Depp as The Riddler would be absolutely fantastic.
- Rachel / Mary-Jane / Lois annoy the hell out of me. They're much too stereotypical, and strong superhero characters should not fall in love with them.

So strong superhero characters shoulf fall in love with who? Him or Herself? Superego is very strong.

[MacGuffin]

It was much better than The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones.

Well, yeah I was mostly talking about the original trilogy (and the first two are better than TDK).

[Synapse]

She's dead, and yes, the movie had lots of "implied violence" to fit the PG-13 rating, so she would be, they just didn't show it. And they will make a sequel, at least they better... ;)