On Science vs Faith

[blueback]

I'm reading through The Richness of Life, a compilation of Stephen Jay Gould's work. One of his articles is about clarifying a point in Darwin's theory of evolution.

The point is that Darwin thought that change happened gradually in small, incremental steps rather than all of a sudden in large steps. However, this presents a problem because it doesn't seem like the tiny wing would be useful. If a wing is to appear in small steps it would have to pass through a size at which it confers no aerodynamic advantage and therefore could not be selected to grow larger.

This is a point at which men of science and men of faith often diverge. The Scientists go looking for evidence to prove or disprove the hypothesis and the Faithists just claim that the matter is settled (one way or another).

For example; Gould provides two examples of scientists trying to resolve the apparent contradiction. Flower investigates the aerodynamic use of proto-wings and comes to the conclusion that all the things proto-wings might be useful for: rough control of free fall, slowing free fall, etc would be accomplished much more easily if the thing simply shrunk. A smaller thing does all that stuff automatically and its legs actually provide more control than proto-wings. However, at this point Flower keeps trying to argue that the proto-wings confered some sort of aerodynamic advantage. The second example Gould provides is of Kingsolver and Koehl (K&K) who took a different approach.

You see, Darwin had resolved the apparent contradiction a long time ago. His theory was that proto-wings weren't little tiny wings at all, that they were used for something else entirely and THEN became wings later.

K&K hypothesized that small, flat growths from a body would provide a thermoregulatory effect, that they would basically be heating/cooling fins. So they tested small bodies in a wind tunnel with lots of different sized bodies and wings and wing placements. They found that below a certain percentage of body size the fins provided no aerodynamic benefit, but they did above a certain percentage of body size. Then they tested the same combinations for thermoregulatory effect and found just the opposite. Below a certain percentage of body size the fins provided a thermorefulatory effect but the effect didn't increase if the fins got bigger.

However, this finding alone doesn't resolve the apparent contradiction. What they also found was that the percentage of body size at which the fin provides an aerodynamic benefit got smaller as the body itself got bigger. So, if a very small body grew thermoregulatory fins they would do just that, help it warm or cool its body temperature. If that body then got bigger (for whatever reason), and the fins grew in proportion, the fins would suddently cross over the boundary and provide an aerodynamic effect. Then the fins could be selected for based on aerodynamic benefit and eventually wings would develop because as the fin grows larger it doesn't change the original thermoregulatory effect. That would provide the transition zone between a fin originally developed for a thermoregulatroy effect to a fin that has an aerodynamic effect.

So, basically, when some scientists came up with the right question and DID GOOD SCIENCE they arrived at a useful answer. One scientist did bad science and he arrived at a useless answer because he had FAITH that the proto-wings must provide an aerodynamic benefit at all sizes, despite evidence to the contrary. Faith derailed his efforts.

This is a perfect example of why I think that we should purge faith from our lives. Science, when done properly and not abused, provides useful answers. Faith, at any time, distracts us from reality because faith requires that we stop forming conclusions based on evidence.

[Homini Lupus]

I don't agree. First because a good hypotesis is not good science. Science is a method and ofteh involves routine; an intuition is not sicence until you use the scientific method to prove it then it's no more an intuition, it becomes a theory. And faith is not the inability to avoid self-imposed limits to one's problem-solving problem. It's a system different from science wich damages science if confused with, and has no connection with intuiting innovative ideas or not doing it.
Basically, you pointed at one problem (selective perception wich makes us blind to lateral thinking) confused with another (faith, wich is not a neutral word but is clearly pointing at religious faith discussions since this is the faith and spirituality section) and used this confusion to shoot at the latter for the problems of the former.

[manger]

What you're describing is bias, and it is very difficult to shield scientific inquiry from it. Every scientist wants their experiment to result in data that supports their hypothesis.

[blueback]

I don't agree. First because a good hypotesis is not good science. Science is a method and ofteh involves routine;

You must have missed the part where I put "DID GOOD SCIENCE" in all caps. I focused on the process they followed, not on the question that inspired the process.

And faith is not the inability to avoid self-imposed limits to one's problem-solving problem. It's a system different from science wich damages science if confused with, and has no connection with intuiting innovative ideas or not doing it.

Faith is not a system. Faith is a conclusion that doesn't have any logical or evidence-based support. Flower, one of the scientists, based his investigative process on his FAITH that the things which eventually turned into wings were always wings of one form or another. He began to flounder because he couldn't find enough logic/evidence to support his conclusion. The reason I say he had FAITH in his conclusion is that he stuck with it despite the results of his own research.

Basically, you pointed at one problem (selective perception wich makes us blind to lateral thinking)

I suppose you can call it that, but faith is so much shorter and more accurate. What he did fits the definition of what faith is, in my opinion, better than the definition of 'selective attention.'

confused with another (faith, wich is not a neutral word but is clearly pointing at religious faith discussions since this is the faith and spirituality section)

Yes. That's why I put it here instead of the science thread.

and used this confusion to shoot at the latter for the problems of the former.

Are you claiming that what he did in no way involved faith?

The reason I put this here, and I thought I explained this clearly in my original post, is that I think people should PURGE faith from their thought process. That doesn't mean try to be scientific, it means actively avoid faith-based conclusions, whether or not that leads them to agree with science. I don't have a problem with God. I have a problem with religious organizations that specifically tell their members to use faith to make decisions rather than using logic and evidence to make decisions.

This is simply a good example of what each method of thought gets you. Sometimes the difference isn't so obvious, but in this case it is so it is a useful illustration.

[Monte314]

I don't agree with blueback's conclusion, but I think his/her post is one of the best I've seen on this and related issues on the Forum. It's so... thoughtful.

As Chief Cognitive Research Scientist for Northrop-Grumman's Advanced Systems Group, faith is crucial to my work. I could do nothing without it.

[Beery Swine]

This is a perfect example of why I think that we should purge faith from our lives. Science, when done properly and not abused, provides useful answers. Faith, at any time, distracts us from reality because faith requires that we stop forming conclusions based on evidence.

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate and say it's more a case of purging faith from science rather than from every aspect of our day-to-day lives. I'm still an anti-Theist but I think this story is more about a proper grounding in the scientific method.

[blueback]

As Chief Cognitive Research Scientist for Northrop-Grumman's Advanced Systems Group, faith is crucial to my work. I could do nothing without it.
Can you elaborate on that? Possibly with an example.





blueback added to this post, 15 minutes and 43 seconds later...

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate and say it's more a case of purging faith from science rather than from every aspect of our day-to-day lives. I'm still an anti-Theist but I think this story is more about a proper grounding in the scientific method.
The reason I generalized at the end of my post (both posts actually) is that I don't want you to just think about this as limited to the specific area of the example. All examples must, by necessity, be specific; that doesn't mean that they can't illustrate a general point.

All people who believe that faith is a good thing will find that, not only is it impossible to apply faith to every aspect of their lives, it is a bad idea to do so.

The only areas in which faith doesn't do any damage are the ones that are so abstract they just don't matter. People have believed all sorts of things about Gods on faith and no one has every been proven right or wrong. That indicates that the subject just doesn't matter so it is safe to have faith in that area. However, areas like driving a car on the highway will quickly render a decision on whether or not faith is a good idea. If you blindfold yourself and try to make it even a couple miles on a highway you will quickly find that you make much better decision when you have evidence.

I'll try another example. It is common among the die-hard anti-abortion groups (yes I appreciate the irony) to want to make abortions illegal. However, what is uncommon is a clue about what the punishment should be for mothers who get illegal abortions. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. these people can spend years campaigning for a law against abortions but they also don't think a woman who has an abortion should be punished. Their faith has led them to a conclusion that is unsupported by logic or evidence and it causes them to stop reasoning.

[Monte314]

Can you elaborate on that? Possibly with an example.

Sure. You'll probably think this is crazy, but...

...God is my co-worker.

Yep. He and I do my job together, as a team.

Our group (Advanced Systems Group) is the technology "provider of last resort" for lots of high-tech customers. We are the guys you call when everyone else has failed (and I mean *everyone*)... the "GhostBusters" of tech. We never get the easy problems, because if the problem is merely preposterously hard, you can get Lockheed or SAIC to handle it. When they fail, you come to us. When the problem is *impossible*, you come to us. And I am the leader of the team... the chief scientist.

So, how do you handle problems of this type? What I do is sit down in my office and say, "OK, Lord, how are we going to handle this one?" And HE SHOWS ME. It's not effortless, but it's usually pretty close.

It got to the point where I actually began to presume on His good graces. I can recall being in a room full of arguing scientists who had kicked some conundrum around for a couple of hours, and I'd say, "Wait! I just figured the whole thing out!" But, I hadn't figured *anything* out... I knew that if God didn't give me the answer within a few seconds, I'd be disgraced. BUT IT ALWAYS CAME.

I finally realized that was was presumption, and taking advantage of the best co-worker anybody could have, so I cut it out.

You asked for a specific example: I was sitting on the floor working on a cryptographic algorithm, and I heard His voice (in my head) say, "What would happen if you loaded blah, blah, blah (secret stuff) in this way?" That was the key! I didn't even ask for it. And it wasn't my idea... I wasn't even thinking about that; it was a verbal question that I still had to answer to gain the benefit. (That gift from God resulted in 10,000 stock option shares.)

I've had dreams where I've been handed notebooks with stuff written in them. I'd read the stuff (which I still had to work out), and that would be that.

There are many such examples. They happen all the time, when I'm at work, when I'm at home, when I'm asleep... having a beloved friend who has an infinite mind and enjoys working with me is indescribable.

I must confess that it seems unfair; I suppose it is. "Fair" means everybody gets the same thing. But I get so much more.

Have you seen the movie "Forbidden Planet"? It's kind of like that. I know that, no matter how challenging the problem is, that the power alongside me will continue to grow and grow until it just overwhelms the opposition.

Hmmm... you know, I've never told this stuff to anybody... I'd guess I'd rather they just think I'm the source of these brilliant ideas. Yeah, it isn't fair!

Faith, then, has been for me the necessary ingredient. I am absolutely certain that when I walk into a room full of hostile Ph.D's (which does happen) that I will be more than able to handle the challenge... and this has always been the case. Without faith, I'd be just another guy limping along with only my own intellect upon which to rely.

When someone tells me that there is "no evidence that God exists", I just laugh. Of course, I can't bring them into my mind for an introduction... all I can do is encourage them to seek Him for themselves.

So:

1.) Am I a hopeless schizoid who is nonetheless an astonishing genius?

or,

2.) Am I an average guy who works with a real God, who cares about me?

[Rafael]

I hear people saying what Monte Says in a monthly basis, actually. And I believe it.

[sriv]

1.) Am I a hopeless schizoid who is nonetheless an astonishing genius?

I'll go with number 1. I'd say that's a rather desirable trait you have there so the normal connotations of "hopeless" and "schizoid" are negated.

[blueback]

When the problem is *impossible*, you come to us. And I am the leader of the team... the chief scientist.

Okay. Here is a link to the Clay Mathematics Institute Millenium Prize Problems. There are 6 problems unsolved and each has a $1,000,000 prize attached to it.

I wouldn't object to a 10% finders fee :-)

HE SHOWS ME...BUT IT ALWAYS CAME...There are many such examples. They happen all the time, when I'm at work, when I'm at home, when I'm asleep...

Faith, then, has been for me the necessary ingredient...Without faith, I'd be just another guy limping along with only my own intellect upon which to rely.

Again, for clarity, the definition of faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

It takes no faith to try a solution when all other solutions have failed. All it takes is desperation and/or curiosity. Additionally, the simple fact that you can list so many times the voice in your head has been right is ample evidence that it will be right the next time. If you have evidence you don't have faith.

Whatever it is that's talking to you, whether it is God or an alien, has proven itself and so provided you with a logical reason to trust it.

[Brutananadilewski]

Whatever it is that's talking to you, whether it is God, or an alien, or your own self, has proven itself and so provided you with a logical reason to trust it.

Added the bold; it's entirely plausible that people mistake their own insights as belonging to something else. Often, not always, it's due to insecurities in their own self-esteem.

Sorry to butt in, but I just had to add that other option.

[tehinternetsgam]

1.) Am I a hopeless schizoid who is nonetheless an astonishing genius?

or,

2.) Am I an average guy who works with a real God, who cares about me?

How about 3.) A person who's good at what he does, even if he thinks it's actually an imaginary being giving him the answers.

[Monte314]

How about 3.) A person who's good at what he does, even if he thinks it's actually an imaginary being giving him the answers.

So, your option 3 is that I'm not schizophrenic, I'm actually psychotic?

[blueback]

Has God solved any of those problems for you yet?

[Beery Swine]

I was sitting on the floor working on a cryptographic algorithm, and I heard His voice (in my head) say, "What would happen if you loaded blah, blah, blah (secret stuff) in this way?" That was the key! I didn't even ask for it. And it wasn't my idea... I wasn't even thinking about that; it was a verbal question that I still had to answer to gain the benefit.

Why not post a little on THIS THREAD (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) by Moriarty?

[Caramel]

I was sitting on the floor working on a cryptographic algorithm, and I heard His voice (in my head) say, "What would happen if you loaded blah, blah, blah (secret stuff) in this way?" That was the key! I didn't even ask for it. And it wasn't my idea... I wasn't even thinking about that; it was a verbal question that I still had to answer to gain the benefit.

If anything, this proves Blueback right: You have to ask the right questions to end up at the right answers.

You asking the right questions is what makes you succesfull at your job. It doesn't really matter if those questions come from God, as you believe, or from your own mind, the end result is the same. =)

[tehinternetsgam]

So, your option 3 is that I'm not schizophrenic, I'm actually psychotic?

You words, not mine. :p

[Caramel]

Okay. Here is a link to the Clay Mathematics Institute Millenium Prize Problems. There are 6 problems unsolved and each has a $1,000,000 prize attached to it.


Err, Blueback, I think you accidently forgot to include the link. Thats a bit unfair to God, don't you think? ;)

[Antares]

You asked for a specific example: I was sitting on the floor working on a cryptographic algorithm, and I heard His voice (in my head) say, "What would happen if you loaded blah, blah, blah (secret stuff) in this way?" That was the key! I didn't even ask for it. And it wasn't my idea... I wasn't even thinking about that; it was a verbal question that I still had to answer to gain the benefit. (That gift from God resulted in 10,000 stock option shares.)

Um... Sure...! Because when I have my own internal conversations, I usually have two distinct voices (sometimes, one would have an American accent and one would have a British accent). Would the voice that didn't sound like me but provides a good idea be God? There has been times where I looked at a problem, screwed over my facial expression and suddenly, some other voice shouted out the solution; completely unrelated to my train of thought; that all the sudden seemed so apparent that I was stupid for missing it. It was like a lightbulb igniting in your head. Would that be God too? Or is that just one of my brilliant ideas?

[blueback]

Err, Blueback, I think you accidently forgot to include the link. Thats a bit unfair to God, don't you think? ;)

*sight* all this new-fangled cumpooter stuff. . .
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[Monte314]

*sight* all this new-fangled cumpooter stuff. . .
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I am quite familiar with the millennium problems, and the Clay Institute.

I don't think you read my post very carefully.

I'm not talking about God doing parlor tricks here. I'm talking about God giving me solutions to problems that I need to solve, no matter how difficult they are. That's all. Somehow you seem to have understood it to be something else.

I am somewhat dismayed that everyone seems to be so threatened by this.

[Saint]

Wait.

Are you seriously saying that God, as in the sole God you believe in, helps you personally by giving you solutions to problems?

[Monte314]

Wait.

Are you seriously saying that God, as in the sole God you believe in, helps you personally by giving you solutions to problems?

Yes, that is what I am saying. He is in the business of solving peoples' problems, and He's very good at it.

But I think this thread is getting a bit off track here. As much as I like to talk about myself, I don't think it was intended that my personal experience become the focus of the discussion.

It does occur to me though, that I am both a person of faith AND a practicing scientist. Does this describe anyone else in the discussion? Or am I *uniquely* qualified to speak on the relationship between these areas?

[Saint]

Are you seriously saying that God, as in the sole God you believe in, helps you personally by giving you solutions to problems?
Yes, that is what I am saying. He is in the business of solving peoples' problems, and He's very good at it.

Is he? There are:


Mudslides in California
Earthquakes in Pakistan and Afghanistan
Floods in central Europe and central US
Tsunamis in India
Hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico
etc...


God lets these people die (or kills them, whatever your preference), yet he'll help you solve problems at work?

Do you have some special kind of pact with God? There are a lot of problems that a lot of people would be glad to have solved long before he helps you with your arbitrary job. I'd think your job would be a very low priority for God. Don't you think there are people in Africa and Burma that God could be lending a hand to?

Hell, even the Pope could use some of the help God is giving you at work:
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Cleary he has a problem. The bullets are real. His god is not.

[blueback]

I'm not talking about God doing parlor tricks here. I'm talking about God giving me solutions to problems that I need to solve, no matter how difficult they are. That's all. Somehow you seem to have understood it to be something else.

So, what does it take for God to help you out? What sort of prequalifications are involved before he will slip you the answer? You can't get the answer to any old problem; it has to be on that comes to you through your job?

I am somewhat dismayed that everyone seems to be so threatened by this.

Right. You totally ignored the part where I explained that you are not a man of faith.

[cal]

Just to wade in here for a moment:

I think I might know a bit about where Monte is coming from. I'm not a practising Christian, but I did engage in some semi-serious scripture studying for a time. At the end of it all, I asked (in my head) something along the lines of "So, are you God?" What seemed like a voice not of my own making replied (in my head) something along the lines of "I am he." It was like "Whoaaa" - an experience truly unique.

I've had 'leaps' in problem solving, both while I'm awake, and while I'm sleeping and wake up with the answer. I've had 'discussions' with myself that have led to the solving of problems. But none of it was like that one unique experience.

One can try to rationalize away what Monte's saying, by comparing similar experiences one's had to Monte's experiences. But I don't think it leads to a conclusion that proves what he's saying is necessarily false.

As for things like what's going on in the world that could use God's hand, and he doesn't seem to be there, I don't quite know what to say. Maybe he's got a plan that doesn't conform to what we think it should be. That's assuming he exists.

[sriv]

But I think this thread is getting a bit off track here. As much as I like to talk about myself, I don't think it was intended that my personal experience become the focus of the discussion.
Seeing as we don't get very often...

It does occur to me though, that I am both a person of faith AND a practicing scientist. Or am I *uniquely* qualified to speak on the relationship between these areas?
You are rather unique, or different, or radical, they all mean the same thing.

Getting to the rationalizing away part, I assume that Ni is the most sensical suspect and the one we have the most evidence of.

[Monte314]

I'd think your job would be a very low priority for God. Don't you think there are people in Africa and Burma that God could be lending a hand to?



It sounds as though you are suggesting that God should have consulted you when establishing His priorities. How INTJ-like of you!

I agree that my job probably isn't that important to God, but I am. So are you, and so are the suffering people you mentioned, who live in a fallen world rather than the perfect one in which God originally placed them.

Your zeal for your religious beliefs is quite apparent. I can see that you are very disturbed by my experience, presumably since it contradicts your cherished beliefs. Well... Life is hard, and then you die.

[Brutananadilewski]

One can try to rationalize away what Monte's saying, by comparing similar experiences one's had to Monte's experiences. But I don't think it leads to a conclusion that proves what he's saying is necessarily false

No credence has been lent to his experiences as being unique and valid either.

[Monte314]

Right. You totally ignored the part where I explained that you are not a man of faith.


It got all the response it merited.

[Saint]

It sounds as though you are suggesting that God should have consulted you when establishing His priorities. How INTJ-like of you!

If his priorities suck that bad, I'm here to help.

I agree that my job probably isn't that important to God, but I am. So are you, and so are the suffering people you mentioned, who live in a fallen world rather than the perfect one in which God originally placed them.

So... if you and I are important to God, as well as the suffering people...

Why does God help you at you job and not them at say, staying alive?


Your zeal for your religious beliefs is quite apparent. I can see that you are very disturbed by my experience, presumably since it contradicts your cherished beliefs.

What religious beliefs?

I am disturbed by your experience. You seem to tell me that there is a God who helps you tackle problems at work, but tends to do rather little when large populations die, starve, become victims of genocide or disease, or other maladies. To be frank, that's fucked up. How do you explain this discrepancy in assistance?

Well... Life is hard, and then you die.

This isn't really part of the conversation, but sometimes I think life is too easy. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. %2520too%2520easy) But that's another topic for another thread.

[blueback]

It got all the response it merited.
Well, at least you seem to understand part of the definition of faith.

[konec]

Hell, even the Pope could use some of the help God is giving you at work:
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Cleary he has a problem. The bullets are real. His god is not.

maybe he has been praying for this cool automobile for years...