2012: Self-Fulfilling?

[TheLastMohican]

I have seen a lot recently about the supposed apocalypse coming up in 2012. Nostradamus and the Mayans apparently had it in for us. Should we be frightened?
I think it is a load of baloney. But before you start planning your early Christmas party, consider that the fact that it is baloney might make no difference.

This sort of thing could end up depending not on apocalyptic events like cosmic collisions or Plinian eruptions, but on human initiative. If enough people believe that an apocalypse will happen at the same time, it will. It has the potential to be self-fulfilling. A small-scale example of the disastrous effects of a population believing that the world is ending can be found in the cargo cult mentioned in The God Delusion. Now imagine what a population would do if it truly believed the world was going to end in a few days. Worse, imagine what might happen if that population had a supply of nuclear weapons. Also imagine what might happen to a government that was not dealing with such a panicked population, but was aware of the possible increased threat from neighboring countries. Suddenly everyone is jittery, and itching to strike first.

Thoughts? Doomsday predictions? Plans to flee to Mars?

[Vertigo]

We made it to the year 2000 and everything was ok not to mention various other dates that were said to be the end of the world. You are right, if enough people believe it's going to happen then they'll make it happen, but only for themselves.

[Fissiongrid]

A voice of reason will hopefully rise above the panicking masses and stop it before it goes too far. Situations like these can't persuade 100% of the population.

[TheLastMohican]

We made it to the year 2000 and everything was ok not to mention various other dates that were said to be the end of the world.

The claims for the year 2000 had no "evidence" like the Mayan calendar or Nostradamus' predictions. They were just made because of the natural significance of 2000 as a number, and consequently most people knew not to take it seriously. I see this current trend as different. There is a lot more to it, and we still have four years left during which the hysteria can build up.

You are right, if enough people believe it's going to happen then they'll make it happen, but only for themselves.

Not just for themselves; people do interact and share their concerns. We could see major movements started, with many thousands of followers. Many believe that Christ will return as part of all this, and those who believe that will undoubtedly take some unusual measures to prepare.

[Vertigo]

Ok I'm going to have to add this to the list of things to research because I've passed on it for so long now already.

[Rafael]

I think most of the people are too busy caring for their own lives to start worrying about some 2012 mayan apocalipse. No wonder the mayans got massacrated, they were too busy making up the end of the world to develop fire weapons.

I wouldn't mind fleeing to mars, though.

[Monte314]

TLM makes an excellent point. We certainly know that financial markets respond to hype and demaogoguery, and they are likely to be significant drivers in any modern apocalypse.

[Deadgod]

Wait? Who said that 2012 was the end of the world? The mayan calendar simply says that is the end of times, not the end of life as we know it. It simply means that life is going to change, and it's most probably for the better.
An explanation of 2012 I found on google:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I hope this clears up any misconceptions.

[TheLastMohican]

Wait? Who said that 2012 was the end of the world?

Um... (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[Deadgod]

Um... (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Only some authors and writers claim that the world will end. The website itself doesn't claim anything explicitly.

[TheLastMohican]

Only some authors and writers claim that the world will end.

There's your answer.

[Deadgod]

There's your answer.

No, it wasn't my question on the first place. I just simply asked a collective question on the behalf of ignorant people. But thanks for answering the question. Many would appreciate it.

[TheLastMohican]

No, it wasn't my question on the first place. I just simply asked a collective question on the behalf of ignorant people.

Um...?
I don't understand, but if that wasn't what you meant, then never mind.

I'd just like to mention again (not to you specifically) that my point is about what results from common belief, not reality. I doubt that Christ will show up in 2012. But I think it is quite likely that we will experience what some will call an apocalypse, and many will believe that the world is ending. That belief will probably be boosted by all the catastrophes that occur between now and then, and a good number of man-made catastrophes might come about because of the belief. Human behavior changes drastically with the genuine belief that the world is about to end. I think we should prepare for economic difficulties and increased violence, with the effects being worse the more people buy into the 2012 hysteria.

[Saint]

The claims for the year 2000 had no "evidence" like the Mayan calendar or Nostradamus' predictions.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What "evidence?"





Saint added to this post, 0 minutes and 54 seconds later...

Um... (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

The very first thing I see on this page is that they're trying to sell things. Hm.

[redbaren]

Oh god! I better start building my fall out shelter the world is going to be gone!!!

On a serious note, I am thinking we are going to make a break through a scientific field that will change life as we no it.

[Vertigo]

Anything is possible, and I like the imagination that some people have but I don't think the world is going to break up or or anything bad at all.

[Antares]

I can see people making a big fuss over it; but they aren't going to mark the end of the world. Not even us destructive scums (humans) have that kind of power. Nor will there be a switch in 'collective consciousness' unless Christ himself comes back or some other magical event occurs.

[Beery Swine]

If people are so stupid as to blow themselves up, along with everyone else in the process, thinking their playing some sort of prisoner's dilemma, and insist on playing the regular rational strategy, I say good riddance to bad rubbish. It's high time we got out of the Vogons' way. :nerd:

[SongofSeptember]

If everything I've read is true, not only will the Earth blow up (or something along those lines), it will also sink, fully intact (I'm merely assuming here), to the "bottom of the Milky Way", the sun will come forth and engulf the Earth (defying the laws of gravity in the process), Jesus will return, everything will cease to exist, so don't bother planning for Mars, because that probably will be gone too.

Keep your fingers crossed. And then... oh boy, what an anticlimax.

[Saint]

On a serious note, I am thinking we are going to make a break through a scientific field that will change life as we no it.

Really? Like inventing something like cellphones or the internet?

Those two inventions changed all of our lives as we know it and in a huge way, but people blindly starting at the date 2012 didn't seem to notice.

There will always be scientific breakthroughs that change our lives. Take a look around. The Internet? Cellphones? Artificial hearts? Nuclear Weapons? Penicillin?

The year 2012 is not special just because a pre-industrialized, now-dead civilization said it would be according to their calendar.

Hell, the Mayan calendar isn't even very good as a calendar, and you think it can predict a huge event in the world hundreds of years later?

[TheLastMohican]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What "evidence?"

The "evidence" is mostly built up and around in people's heads. The notions are mostly based on this Mayan calendar and Nostradumus' quatrains, which are quite handy for interpreting to fit any situation.

The very first thing I see on this page is that they're trying to sell things. Hm.

That's part of my point. This has much more to do with social pressures and crafty gossips than real evidence. All that would be needed for many of the predictions to come true (excluding those involving meteors) would be widespread hysteria. It could be self-fulfilling.

[Saint]

ooooh, I see what you mean now.

[Grizzly]

Paranoia pays off the first time you dont get caught......


I'm getting my shotgun ready for the zombies and stocking up on MREs

[phantasma]

I'm not counting on 2012, but realistically, the world can't go on the way it's going. There would have to be a HUGE dramatic change in society, economics, and politics, a giant population decline, or both.

And I believe in the Second Coming (though I find most of the Apocalyptic stuff in Revelation to be metaphorical).

[Max]

I'm not counting on 2012, but realistically, the world can't go on the way it's going. There would have to be a HUGE dramatic change in society, economics, and politics, a giant population decline, or both.

I agree. It's not logical to assume that the world will continue to thrive in these current conditions. I think that a meteor or something is going to hit us... either that or someone is going to let their nuclear weapons fly. Something is going to happen soon.... something catastrophic. It's very naive to think that everything is going to continue to run along all peachy-like with all of the disastrous climate changes and horrible, horrible weapons that humans have created. Not to mention all of the hate, idiocy, and greed that have become priorities in so many peoples' lives.

[Supreme Dick]

I have the planet scheduled for demolition in June 2013, anyway so what's the diff? (It's blocking my view.)

[Realpra]

Theres 3,5 years from now til 2012, even IF something terrible is going to happen I doubt it will happen without warning in that short time, world wars take a little time to build up.

If a super nova takes us out (theres one about to blow practically right next to our system) theres not much we can do right now unless one of you guys have a hyperdrive up their *ss to get us out of here.

Seriously astronomers are talking about one 400 lightyears away from here. They dont know if we will be able to survive (read earth not melted away) or whether or not it has in fact already blown up.

Mayans were great astronomers, maybe they saw this star and somehow predicted it would blow up 2012? Maybe they saw another star suddenly flare up, looked at the doomsday star, saw the same pattern and calculated that it was closer to us and therefore might end us, predicting aproximately 2012 as the time of the explosion hitting us.

[Reon]

I don't believe that the world will end in 2012 but even if it does I'm going to live my life to the fullest. IIRC the mayan 2012 thing is the end of the great cycle, something that is usually hugely rejoiced in the mayan culture. I think humans just want to know the date that everything ends so they can waste half their life and then get squared away with everything before they die instead of living their lives.

[Valiyn]

Can someone get a list of the other dates cycles have ended so we can see if anything has happened before?

[Karamazov]

I wonder what form this "cataclysmic" event will manifest itself ?

[zhangxy]

For me, I believe in free will. I don't believe that any event is already destined to happen.

What's the point of these prophecies really? To avoid them? But if the hand is already played, how will we change fate? ...


Here's a website I found after I typed 2012 into google:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Anderson]

As an optimist, I have to say that if 2012 is the end of the world. Then I can die happily knowing that I ripped off my creditors--since I'll be dead, I'll never have to pay any of my remaining debt balances.....ha ha!!!

[Tocsin]

ANOTHER end times prediction?!?

...yawn.

These things are more prolific than cockroaches.

Every couple of years, there is another half-baked idea that the end of the world is coming soon. Some kook finds a new angle, and then makes a bundle selling books to dissaffected losers to give them the satisfaction that nobody wins - everybody will wind up losing everything soon enough.

Then, every couple of years later, these dates come and go with as much of a cataclysmic effect as as a sudden sneeze.

Take every "end times" prediction you ever hear, write it on a piece of toilet paper with a felt tip pen, and then wipe your butt on in it. That's about all they are ever worth.

For your amusement:

Library of Date Setters of
The End of the World!!!
Over 200 predictions and counting!
(To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[127001]

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[6dbl5321]

Sen. Clinton bought the domain name, 'hrc2012' a couple of weeks ago, fwiw.

[mind_wander]

Here are some people, who is betting for predicting future events: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[ghettochraka]

The Apocalypse is for ugly people. Ugly 'n weak fools always try to manifest a ghoulish external world to match their internal garbage dump. I'm too sexy for that crap so I meditate on beauty. 2012 will be a great day like every other day.

[RabbitEars]

2012 is the 20 anniversary of Sailor Moon anime.
Boy, there's gonna be some party. I'd probably GM a Sailor Moon roleplay.

[TheLastMohican]

It seems that this thread has devolved into another simplistic denouncement of the predictions. The point of it is not that Mayan prophecies are supposed to carry any weight by their own merits, but that large numbers of people believing that they do can cause some of their beliefs to come true. This is meant to be about the potential power of groupthink.

[RabbitEars]

So there's contra group think, especially for those who wait for Euro 2012 :)
The only apocalypse I can think about now is that Poland and Ukraine won't do in time with the stadiums and the organization will be taken from us.
Come to think about it, maybe that's why the Mayans calendar ends there. They were waiting for the Euro, too.

[ghettochraka]

It's humorous to see the words devolve and group think together.

[Airius]

Aside from doomsday speculation, others believe that 2012 will mark the year of a large paradigm shift, or a revolution of thought.

NASA contemplates solar changes (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[JonD]

Look at y2k. People bought toilet paper, bottled water, and canned goods, when they thought the entire electrical world was going to collapse. I think some guy actually saran wrapped himself inside his house.

Prophecies such as these can be quite fulfilling to the individual, but for a large free-thinking group it would take quite a bit of manipulation. It makes me think of that Kool-Aid Cult, and other similary extremist cults.

As for what I think about the 2012 prophecy... who said our calendar was right? Most calendars date back to the day the inventor decided to begin it, or the time a messiah was born/crucified. In the naturalist sense, the date to begin a calendar is some arbitrary point in time, so the year 2012 is just as arbitrary.

[TheLastMohican]

NASA contemplates solar changes (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Yes: unfortunate timing. I expect much will be made of it.

[Mogura]

Uh, the Mayans are no longer around, right?

Were they successful in predicting their own demise?

[enWTFp]

Grim as it may sound, I suspect humanity is a trifle too resilient to be able to exterminate itself completely. It seems ever eager to make favourable attempts, nevertheless.