INTJ Relationship Advice

[Follow]

I see many threads here from people other than INTJs who are asking for relationship advice of some kind. Usually the message is titled something along the lines of "help me decode..." or something. Just to make it clear, I'm not making this post because I'm annoyed, but it might be a helpful reference for those who make these posts to give a few basic ground rules. The statements I'm about to make are in reference to myself and my own experiences, but I believe they apply to other INTJ types as well.

1. Don't read into it. Yes, INTJs are complex and whatnot, but not when it comes to relationships. When we say something, we mean it. If we tell you we can't do something or won't, it isn't because we don't like you, it's because we believe you asked for advice and we are giving it to you.

2. INTJs generally won't play games. We don't like facades and social rituals. We won't chase you if you're "playing hard to get" we will just leave you alone, lest we be called stalkers. I know from personal experience that once a female starts playing coy, I just move on. I might find out weeks/months/years later that she was just playing a game with me and once she's put her cards on the table we can develop something. However, at the time she played her games, I wasn't interested. I like enigmas in everything but relationships. I like to know when the game's afoot.

3. Be honest. You like an INTJ, tell him/her about it. Don't wait for the INTJ to approach you, we generally won't do it, or even if we do, you might not even notice. I can't imagine an INTJ disliking it when someone is honest with them and says "hey, I think you're cool and I want you". Sure, it might end with them telling you just as honestly that they aren't interested, but they will appreciate your candor and you will appreciate not having to guess anymore.

4. We generally aren't going to fit in with your friends. Most INTJs just don't like associating with others, they have a close knit group of people that they will associate with and even with them not all the time. Don't invite an INTJ to go hang out with you and your friends at a club and then puzzle at why they declined your invitation or looked like they weren't having any fun if they don't decline. If you invite an INTJ to go to a social gathering of your choosing and the INTJ accepts, then the INTJ in question is most definitely interested in you. If said INTJ goes to the party and sits in a corner all night not talking to anyone, it isn't because they don't like you, it's because they don't like the situation you've put them in.

5. Don't puzzle us. INTJs have a difficult enough time understanding what you mean when you start speaking a love language without you clouding it further by trying to get us to read between the lines. You'll have better luck teaching a rock to read between the lines. This goes back to the honesty, but on a different level. If you have something to say, just say it. Don't go beating around the bush, just come out with it, we will appreciate you for doing so.

6. We aren't afraid of criticism. What we don't like is people with whom we have lost favor with but have no idea why. We are secure enough in our positions and ways that we don't care if you don't like it, therefore it won't hurt us if you say so. If you are important to the INTJ though, obviously the INTJ will try to cure whatever it is that's troubling you. But we absolutely MUST be told what it is. You don't have to be brutal, but don't sugar coat things so much we can't tell if you're complementing or criticizing us.

These statements should get you far with INTJ communication. Remember to be reasonable and frank in your discussion(s) and the INTJ will feel like communication with you is possible. Try to understand, we are rationals and some of us are extreme introverts. These are not traits that are conducive to relationships which require emotion rather than reason and some degree of extroversion. I could relate to you many stories where a particular woman has acted coy while I thought I made quite clear that I was interested in them. It turns out (finding out many moons later) that they were interested and had no idea I was also.

Once you've gotten past the preliminaries, you have a whole new can of worms to deal with when you start your actual relationship with the INTJ... I might make a sequel to this depending on how this one is received. For now, I'll leave it to the board for agreement/disagreement.

[44sunsets]

Great thread!

I'm trying to think of what else I can add, from my experience with male and female INTJs. There are always certain gender differences.

[Follow]

Great thread!

I'm trying to think of what else I can add, from my experience with male and female INTJs. There are always certain gender differences.

Yes, there are definitely gender differences. I've never been, nor dated an INTJ female. I'd like to try it sometime, but because of the nature of our personalities, I don't think it will ever happen. I don't chase and they don't come willingly. :p

[mkay]

Follow, I agree. The qualities you listed are what I've encountered with my INTJ husband. I love direct, non-BS people, which is a big reason he and I got together without a hitch. Since neither of us plays games, we both did "pursuing" as our relationship developed.

We've been together for 17 years and I love my endearingly goofy INTJ more than ever. Some of his best qualities are simplicity and directness. ... I hear / read about others' relationship struggles -- trying to decipher messages, looking to change the other person and such -- and they sound endlessly draining.

I don't value any relationship enough to change who I am. So I feel immensely lucky to have stumbled across someone who makes me so happy and accepts me for who I am. And I love my INTJ just as he is. When my INTJ and I want something, we just say so, and we say what we mean. Ahhhhh. Heaven.

[jikin]

This is a great thread. I'm tempted to print it out and carry it around with me for those times somebody is showing interest. Sadly, being a high introvert means I probably wouldn't actually show it to them, so I shouldn't waste the paper.

[md21017md]

Great thread. I have an INTJ g/f, and this so fits her, though I do think she can play the dating games from time to time.

Early on when we were dating she was out of town, and met up with a friend for dinner. I get a text message from a guy on her phone telling me how great she is and that I'll lose her if I don't keep her close. I don't bite, and a few later I get "aren't you wworried who he is"? So I now play a long and asked "should I be". Her reply back is "nah just messing with you it's my friends boyfriend".

There have been other instances, but this sort of stands out.


Anyway, from the non intj stand point, you guys can drive us crazy. For example, we've been dating for a couple years, and she will still say "I am having dinner with a friend", or a "a client" as opposed to saying a name. Small detail, but to us non intj's it implies that you are hiding something, especially when it's with a friend of yours I know. What drive me crazy is that this seems so formal "Having dinner with a client" which could later be blown off for something else. I say I though you were having dinner with a client"? "No, it was just blah blah I work with and anyone else that shows up". Far different from first appearances. Why? Why be so (seemingly) deceptive then open up?

By the way, I sort of see this as a dating game - intentional or not.

#3 does not fit, as she "picked me up" in a bar. She was with a group of friends as was I with my friends. As I was trying to figure an opener, she looked over and started talking.

#4 definately, we for the most part revolve around her house and friends. It's rare for her to come to my place. She might from time to time on the weekend, but that's it. Also, it's rare to get her out with my frineds, unless it's a few and hers are there also.

#6 seems true unless it's related to the relationship. I've also seen instances where she's done something she was especially proud of, and then seemed really pissed when it was criticized. Kind of like they were telling her that her opinion of her accomplishment was wrong.


You and your damn need for space. Over the past holiday weekend, I was originally not going to be around, and at the last minuite my plans got cancelled. I tell her, and her reply "well to be honest, this kind of pisses me off, I was planning to have a weekend to my self". She wasn't pissed at me, but the outside source that screwed my plans. I was kind of hurt, thinking my g/f would relish being with her b/f especially for a holiday weekend.

I've come to figure a good relationship with her would be one in which I see her maybe 2 days a week. Seems like any more than that and she gets ansy.

Bottom line is that you guys are a hell of a lot of work. I am not necesarily saying it's not worth it, but for me, it is far more taxing than any other relationship.

[mkay]

If my husband told me he was having dinner with a client or friend, I wouldn't care about the person's name. If I didn't trust my husband, that would be a different matter.

I love my space, too, so I can totally understand your girlfriend looking forward to time on her own. I wouldn't assume that someone would relish my company if he/she'd made plans otherwise.

From my perspective, my INTJ is no work at all. That's actually the part that amazes me about being married to him. I never wanted to be married, even when I was a kid. I figured marriage was way too much work for the reward, and I really enjoy my freedom and independence. But being married to my INTJ, it's the best of both worlds. He's good at entertaining himself.

Maybe your specific INTJ is a lot of work, maybe the combination of your two personalities. For me, being with an SF would probably be exhausting.

[strawberrycat]

I wish I had known about a few of these things before.

[ElstonGunn]

The part I find so weird and surprising is that anyone (let alone the vast majority of people) would do things differently. I've tried wrapping my mind around that, but it doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

[Synamon]

I'll add another point Persistence. We may push you away for time on our own, so persistence is good, not in a stalker way, but just don't give up on us if we need time to ourselves. We are not comfortable with feelings and will need time to think them through.

[44sunsets]

Great thread. I have an INTJ g/f, and this so fits her, though I do think she can play the dating games from time to time.


A lot of people claim that INTJs don't play "games" but I think this is not true. Most people play games in relationships, whether they realise it or not. It comes naturally to many people. It's not necessarily a sneaky/mean/calculating thing, it's just the way human beings are.


#6 seems true unless it's related to the relationship. I've also seen instances where she's done something she was especially proud of, and then seemed really pissed when it was criticized. Kind of like they were telling her that her opinion of her accomplishment was wrong.


In my opinion INTJs can be very touchy about criticism, especially if you are deemed to be questioning their competence. So they are usually not as objective and detached as they are claimed to be. Hey, they're only human after all. As always, tread carefully!


You and your damn need for space. Over the past holiday weekend, I was originally not going to be around, and at the last minuite my plans got cancelled. I tell her, and her reply "well to be honest, this kind of pisses me off, I was planning to have a weekend to my self". She wasn't pissed at me, but the outside source that screwed my plans. I was kind of hurt, thinking my g/f would relish being with her b/f especially for a holiday weekend.


She hates sudden changes in plans. In my experience, most INTJ women don't like surprises. They don't like things being forced upon them.

Note to men: consult your INTJ woman before planning that surprise weekend getaway trip.


Bottom line is that you guys are a hell of a lot of work. I am not necesarily saying it's not worth it, but for me, it is far more taxing than any other relationship.

It's a strange kind of paradox -- on the one hand, INTJ women are so independent that they can be happily left to their own devices. On the other hand, they can be real hard work.

My INTJ friend describes herself as easy going, but I think she's far from it. I've jokingly called her "high-maintenance", but there's more than a grain of truth in there, at least from the point of view of a non-INTJ. They're not high-maintenance in the traditional sense, but rather in the sense that they can get pissed off very easily and you need to be careful that you don't set those triggers off.

INTJ women can get into very dark moods and can brew up one hell of a storm. They can turn from warm and friendly to cold and aloof in an instant.

[md21017md]

It's not necessarily a sneaky/mean/calculating thing, it's just the way human beings are

Maybe that is the difference between INTJ's and others, they are not purposely doing it.


In my opinion INTJs can be very touchy about criticism, especially if you are deemed to be questioning their competence.

Exactly! They are so self assured that to question thier opinion of self raises the possibility severe retribution.

Note to men: consult your INTJ woman before planning that surprise weekend getaway trip.

Kind of ruins the idea of a suprise doesn't it?


They're not high-maintenance in the traditional sense, but rather in the sense that they can get pissed off very easily and you need to be careful that you don't set those triggers off.

Exactly!!

Lets see we have not had many fights, but what has set her off with me?

Having a problem that appears to her to have been caused by not being prepared. This even though the problem was beyond my control, or ability to anticipate, but in her opinion I didn't propery prepare for the posibility.

Ignoring her

Changes to her plans

Taking a calculated risk

[Liason]

I constantly don't understand why anyone if they showed interest would not directly express their feelings to you. Most of it isn't fear of being rejected so what the hell is it?

[MichaelH]

Great thread. I have an INTJ g/f, and this so fits her, though I do think she can play the dating games from time to time.

<snip>

You and your damn need for space. Over the past holiday weekend, I was originally not going to be around, and at the last minuite my plans got cancelled. I tell her, and her reply "well to be honest, this kind of pisses me off, I was planning to have a weekend to my self". She wasn't pissed at me, but the outside source that screwed my plans. I was kind of hurt, thinking my g/f would relish being with her b/f especially for a holiday weekend.


THANK YOU for posting this. I'd been feeling guilty for being grumpy at my spouse when he cancelled a day I was supposed to have alone. Now I realize it's fairly standard INTJ behavior. :)

[Rohsiph]

The part I find so weird and surprising is that anyone (let alone the vast majority of people) would do things differently. I've tried wrapping my mind around that, but it doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Exactly--

such that all the "problems" md21017md describes sound trivial to me.

It's exploring circles entirely disconnected from my inner sphere to understand how "most" people work. Reconciling the differences is a battle I'm not sure I'll ever win.

Two or three years of my strongest attempts lead me to believe many would dismiss the advice in the op entirely. That there can exist such exceptions seems to always surprise, in a disenchanting way, those who have always fit in.

Even so, the advice is spot on, whether or not persons who could use it will ever heed it.

[pensivemuse7]

Wish I had this list before. But good thing I figured all this out / was told by my INTJ.

I would add (which is a give me):Be accepting of your INTJ. Don't attempt to change him into anything he doesn't want to be. Unless he wants help to change some aspect of him/herself.

[cal]

I see many threads here from people other than INTJs who are asking for relationship advice of some kind. Usually the message is titled something along the lines of "help me decode..." or something. Just to make it clear, I'm not making this post because I'm annoyed, but it might be a helpful reference for those who make these posts to give a few basic ground rules. The statements I'm about to make are in reference to myself and my own experiences, but I believe they apply to other INTJ types as well.

1. Don't read into it. Yes, INTJs are complex and whatnot, but not when it comes to relationships. When we say something, we mean it. If we tell you we can't do something or won't, it isn't because we don't like you, it's because we believe you asked for advice and we are giving it to you.

2. INTJs generally won't play games. We don't like facades and social rituals. We won't chase you if you're "playing hard to get" we will just leave you alone, lest we be called stalkers. I know from personal experience that once a female starts playing coy, I just move on. I might find out weeks/months/years later that she was just playing a game with me and once she's put her cards on the table we can develop something. However, at the time she played her games, I wasn't interested. I like enigmas in everything but relationships. I like to know when the game's afoot.

3. Be honest. You like an INTJ, tell him/her about it. Don't wait for the INTJ to approach you, we generally won't do it, or even if we do, you might not even notice. I can't imagine an INTJ disliking it when someone is honest with them and says "hey, I think you're cool and I want you". Sure, it might end with them telling you just as honestly that they aren't interested, but they will appreciate your candor and you will appreciate not having to guess anymore.

4. We generally aren't going to fit in with your friends. Most INTJs just don't like associating with others, they have a close knit group of people that they will associate with and even with them not all the time. Don't invite an INTJ to go hang out with you and your friends at a club and then puzzle at why they declined your invitation or looked like they weren't having any fun if they don't decline. If you invite an INTJ to go to a social gathering of your choosing and the INTJ accepts, then the INTJ in question is most definitely interested in you. If said INTJ goes to the party and sits in a corner all night not talking to anyone, it isn't because they don't like you, it's because they don't like the situation you've put them in.

5. Don't puzzle us. INTJs have a difficult enough time understanding what you mean when you start speaking a love language without you clouding it further by trying to get us to read between the lines. You'll have better luck teaching a rock to read between the lines. This goes back to the honesty, but on a different level. If you have something to say, just say it. Don't go beating around the bush, just come out with it, we will appreciate you for doing so.

6. We aren't afraid of criticism. What we don't like is people with whom we have lost favor with but have no idea why. We are secure enough in our positions and ways that we don't care if you don't like it, therefore it won't hurt us if you say so. If you are important to the INTJ though, obviously the INTJ will try to cure whatever it is that's troubling you. But we absolutely MUST be told what it is. You don't have to be brutal, but don't sugar coat things so much we can't tell if you're complementing or criticizing us.

These statements should get you far with INTJ communication. Remember to be reasonable and frank in your discussion(s) and the INTJ will feel like communication with you is possible. Try to understand, we are rationals and some of us are extreme introverts. These are not traits that are conducive to relationships which require emotion rather than reason and some degree of extroversion. I could relate to you many stories where a particular woman has acted coy while I thought I made quite clear that I was interested in them. It turns out (finding out many moons later) that they were interested and had no idea I was also.

Once you've gotten past the preliminaries, you have a whole new can of worms to deal with when you start your actual relationship with the INTJ... I might make a sequel to this depending on how this one is received. For now, I'll leave it to the board for agreement/disagreement.


From my point of view, a nice summary. I'd say Synamon's 'Persistence', and pensivemuse7's 'Be accepting', belong as well. I did make a copy of all 3 posts.

To anyone commenting on the 'playing games', note that Follow's comment was qualified with "generally" - "INTJs generally won't play games". We're not 'cookie cutter' people, and each person may behave differently here. And some who aren't usually into games may react differently to different people at different times.
But in general, I and any INTJ I've known aren't into relationship game playing, or not much. I, too, will walk away when I conclude I've had too much of that. It doesn't take too much before I've reached that point.

[md21017md]

such that all the "problems" md21017md describes sound trivial to me.

You may consider them trivial, however if they result in a fight or relationship issue, then are they really trivial?

I've been thinking of this post and my dealings with the INTJ g/f. I am sure I will get some flack for this, but you (intj's) guy come accross as very selfish and unyielding in a relationship. You probably don't think so because you seem so undemanding. However, you have little ability to compromise. If you don't want to do something (go to a party for example) you put us in the position of draging you along which never plays out well, or going alone. We constantly have to make sure we are not springing something on you unexpected, that we don't violate some INTJ rule that will piss you off. It is very trying and in the end, the non-intj seems to be the one making all the relationship adjustments - at least in my experiance over the past 2+ years.

Yes, it's nice that if there is a party or some such and my g/f doesn't want to go, she's more than happy to tell me to go alone, and not give it 2 thoughts. While it's nice to have a night to my self here and there, if I really followed up on all her "I don't want to go, you go" advice I'd spend very little time with her, and at that point do you really have a relationship? It seems like she'd be perfectly happy if we saw each other 1-2 days a week.

The frustration is if I make plans to go out (her and I alone or with my friends), and she comes, she's falling asleep in the bar at 9PM and we essentially have to leave. If she goes out on her own, or with her friends then she can be up till midnight, 1 - 2 AM. To most of us non intj types, this kind of reads your needs are important to you, but mine are not.

[mkay]

You may consider them trivial, however if they result in a fight or relationship issue, then are they really trivial?

I've been thinking of this post and my dealings with the INTJ g/f. I am sure I will get some flack for this, but you (intj's) guy come accross as very selfish and unyielding in a relationship. You probably don't think so because you seem so undemanding. However, you have little ability to compromise. If you don't want to do something (go to a party for example) you put us in the position of draging you along which never plays out well, or going alone. We constantly have to make sure we are not springing something on you unexpected, that we don't violate some INTJ rule that will piss you off. It is very trying and in the end, the non-intj seems to be the one making all the relationship adjustments - at least in my experiance over the past 2+ years.

Yes, it's nice that if there is a party or some such and my g/f doesn't want to go, she's more than happy to tell me to go alone, and not give it 2 thoughts. While it's nice to have a night to my self here and there, if I really followed up on all her "I don't want to go, you go" advice I'd spend very little time with her, and at that point do you really have a relationship? It seems like she'd be perfectly happy if we saw each other 1-2 days a week.

The frustration is if I make plans to go out (her and I alone or with my friends), and she comes, she's falling asleep in the bar at 9PM and we essentially have to leave. If she goes out on her own, or with her friends then she can be up till midnight, 1 - 2 AM. To most of us non intj types, this kind of reads your needs are important to you, but mine are not.

I speak for myself, as an ENTP: I'm selfish. I don't have a problem acknowledging that. I figure you can't change other people; it's hard enough to change yourself. So it's more likely to be successful if you find someone who's on the same wavelength.

It seems like you feel you're making most of the sacrifices in your relationship. If you've been doing it for two years, imagine doing it for 30 or 40 if you and your girlfriend marry. I figure if something bugs you about someone when you're dating, you'd better be prepared for it to build over time if you're in it for the long haul. That's especially the case if your relationship is more important to you than it is to her.

[Minerva]

The part I find so weird and surprising is that anyone (let alone the vast majority of people) would do things differently. I've tried wrapping my mind around that, but it doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Maybe because:

1) Most people like playing games.

2) Many people are unaware of what they know and what they do NOT. They seem to be satisfied with making assumptions.

3) Many people are either over confident or not confident enough. Hence they misjudge, mishandle and in so doing make mistakes.

BTW... Great thread! Looking forward to the sequel.

[Rohsiph]

You may consider them trivial, however if they result in a fight or relationship issue, then are they really trivial?

Has anything changed after the fight/issue has been resolved? If not, then they're trivial.

I've been thinking of this post and my dealings with the INTJ g/f. I am sure I will get some flack for this, but you (intj's) guy come accross as very selfish and unyielding in a relationship. You probably don't think so because you seem so undemanding. However, you have little ability to compromise. If you don't want to do something (go to a party for example) you put us in the position of draging you along which never plays out well, or going alone. We constantly have to make sure we are not springing something on you unexpected, that we don't violate some INTJ rule that will piss you off. It is very trying and in the end, the non-intj seems to be the one making all the relationship adjustments - at least in my experiance over the past 2+ years.

Yeah . . . the very concept of compromising for a relationship was enough to drive me away from the entire realm until I matured a bit in college. Even now, the idea of major compromise is entirely repellent.

On the other hand, I don't expect anyone to compromise his/herself for me. Wherever I'm unyielding, I'd expect my partner to be equally unyielding.

Yes, it's nice that if there is a party or some such and my g/f doesn't want to go, she's more than happy to tell me to go alone, and not give it 2 thoughts. While it's nice to have a night to my self here and there, if I really followed up on all her "I don't want to go, you go" advice I'd spend very little time with her, and at that point do you really have a relationship? It seems like she'd be perfectly happy if we saw each other 1-2 days a week.

As long as those 1-2 days a week are really exciting, why do you need more? Quality above quantity, especially in relationships. I speak for myself, but I think it's accurate to say INTJ's are never the type to believe in having a partner merely to be "along for the ride" ornamentally. When we are with someone we care about, we want him/her to be involved just as much as we are--meaning we'd rather leave him/her alone if we're convinced he/she wouldn't be happy coming along.

The frustration is if I make plans to go out (her and I alone or with my friends), and she comes, she's falling asleep in the bar at 9PM and we essentially have to leave. If she goes out on her own, or with her friends then she can be up till midnight, 1 - 2 AM. To most of us non intj types, this kind of reads your needs are important to you, but mine are not.

Your needs are important to you, my needs are important to me. Hopefully there is some overlap, but making sure there is is less important than best-fulfilling my needs.

I had said your problems seem trivial to me . . . I can see a way this might sound something offensive to you, but I don't mean it to be. It's merely that I have a different value structure, and it's hard for me to reconcile yours with mine . . .

As such, I think the best either of us could hope from each other (speaking generally, about the intermingling of personality more than about literal "you" and "me") is that we're both mature enough to be interested in figuring out how the other side actually works.

[SimplyOtter]

Thank you, Follow, for this list! And for thinking of us non-INTJs! :)

The only thing I still can't work out is how to be able to discerne if an INTJ is just not simply into you or he's just being...an INTJ.
My ESFJ friend bought me for my birthday the book "He's just not that into you" (a very subtle hint :laugh:): before finding this forum I thought I had had a final answer. Now I find myself thinking that maybe all the men described in that book were INTJs... ??!!

Any INTJ has read the book? what you think?

[JoeyDude]

I'm seeing some comments about us being uncompromising and demanding. While I do agree I have to add it's because I'm ok being single. I am not validated by having a significant other. If I never marry I'm not going to be depressed about it. Because of that I'm just not willing to settle for whoever comes along just so I can say I have a girlfriend.

As for the significant other I do not want her to feel like she has to really work just to be with me or that she has to change her whole personality. Love is accepting who you are and helping each of us grow and enjoy life together. I want someone I can literally spend a lifetime with and if she can't stand being with me for a year then there' s someone better for her.

The last girl (ESFP) I was involved with was fun at times but there were a lot of times we just didn't quite sync on interests and other things even with the sense of humor. There were some times I laughed my butt off at something and she just had a blank stare. And this happened vice versa as well. Plus she had some abandonment issues and basically every other week I had some kind of problem to deal with her.

I understand that relationships take effort and that there will be down times but I don't believe that you should stick with a relationship even if it makes you unhappy. You have only one life to live and there's just no point wasting it behing unhappy with the wrong person.

[Minerva]

Yeah . . . the very concept of compromising for a relationship was enough to drive me away from the entire realm until I matured a bit in college. Even now, the idea of major compromise is entirely repellent.

On the other hand, I don't expect anyone to compromise his/herself for me. Wherever I'm unyielding, I'd expect my partner to be equally unyielding.



You need to mature a bit more. It will come with time.

I understand your expectation, or rather, lack of. However, if both sides are not willing to compromise for the other, then isn't that a recipe for disaster? How can two people come together if they always want to pull apart? Isn't surrendering yourself to another by compromising and giving in to the other's needs, to an extent, part of being in a relationship?

[md21017md]

On the other hand, I don't expect anyone to compromise his/herself for me. Wherever I'm unyielding, I'd expect my partner to be equally unyielding.

Again, while it's a nice contrast to my ex that demanded - no compromise on her part either. If neither wants or is pushed to compromise then you spend more time apart doing your own thing than together.


As long as those 1-2 days a week are really exciting, why do you need more?

I would generally prefer to spend more than 1 -2 days a week with a partner. The flip side, if that is all she can take, it pretty much rules out the concept of marriage. Neither of us are at that point, nor may ever be, but I think the longer things go on, the more it will have to revert to a 1-2 day a week relationship or she's going to feel pened in.

I had said your problems seem trivial to me . . . I can see a way this might sound something offensive to you,

Just a bit

but I don't mean it to be.

Having an INTJ friend and an intj g/f, I've been around you guys enough to have guessd that.



How can two people come together if they always want to pull apart? Isn't surrendering yourself to another by compromising and giving in to the other's needs, to an extent, part of being in a relationship?

Exactly my point!!!!

[pkginc]

I've been thinking of this post and my dealings with the INTJ g/f. I am sure I will get some flack for this, but you (intj's) guy come accross as very selfish and unyielding in a relationship. You probably don't think so because you seem so undemanding. However, you have little ability to compromise. If you don't want to do something (go to a party for example) you put us in the position of draging you along which never plays out well, or going alone. We constantly have to make sure we are not springing something on you unexpected, that we don't violate some INTJ rule that will piss you off. It is very trying and in the end, the non-intj seems to be the one making all the relationship adjustments - at least in my experiance over the past 2+ years.



I think what you say here is very true, having been in a relationship where this often was the case (her wanting to go out on the town, and I didn't). However, there was times when I tried my best to have fun and it just didn't work. We sorta understood that the two of us going out till 4am having fun just wasn't happening. My g/f found this very tiring, but you know, if that is a real problem, and the non-intj finds it unbearable, maybe it's just a mismatch? (and not necessarily a mbti thing)

Being somewhat "unique", intj's have both strong positive traits and strong negative traits (I feel). I think that a partner needs to be good at realising this and thus either live with it or, as you said, make the change themselves :) As for myself, I find it very hard to see how to change such traits, and hope to find someone who'll either live with 'em or help me change 'em. I'm only so strong :p

[eli]

2. INTJs generally won't play games. We don't like facades and social rituals. We won't chase you if you're "playing hard to get" we will just leave you alone, lest we be called stalkers. I know from personal experience that once a female starts playing coy, I just move on. I might find out weeks/months/years later that she was just playing a game with me and once she's put her cards on the table we can develop something. However, at the time she played her games, I wasn't interested. I like enigmas in everything but relationships. I like to know when the game's afoot.


I really agree with this. I think it's also worth mentionning that since INTJs are so fiercely independant, and don't believe in social games, they tend to either look for:
* a partner for life once they are ready to settle or have found the person worth settling for;
* short affairs to fulfill sexual desire;
* no one.

There has been a lot of talk about being unyielding in relationships. I think it really depends how deeply the INTJ cares about their partner. INTJs are so picky, that when (if) they find the perfect person for them, I would expect them to be ready for compromise to make it work.
At least that's what I've been doing.
Then again, I'm kind of an in-between. I'm an INTJ/P.

[foroneonly]

However, if both sides are not willing to compromise for the other, then isn't that a recipe for disaster? How can two people come together if they always want to pull apart? Isn't surrendering yourself to another by compromising and giving in to the other's needs, to an extent, part of being in a relationship?

I agree with you about the concept of both people being willing to compromise. I'm a female and more "independent" or autonomous than some women, and I think you have to accept the basic fundametals of a perons in order for a relationship to be successful. However, if I if I care enough about a person I will be willing or even want to compromise. There has to be a certain amount of give in take. Especially if you want to be with someone so different than you like an INTJ-ESFP relationship. Compromise doesn't always mean weakness, sometimes it illustrates strength.

[jwp4]

Bottom line is that you guys are a hell of a lot of work. I am not necesarily saying it's not worth it, but for me, it is far more taxing than any other relationship.


Md, I always appreciate your perspective (I think my wife might be ESFP). However, you're exhausting and I only read your posts.

[Rohsiph]

Isn't surrendering yourself to another by compromising and giving in to the other's needs, to an extent, part of being in a relationship?

A few have beat me to offering some of what I want to say, but I still want to reply in my own words.

Compromise is necessary for any two-party relationship where both parties are individuals, as you say, to an extent. Technically, if I want to go for Chinese food, and my partner wants to go for Italian food, there'll need to be some compromise if we are to go for food together--whether I relent, she relents, or we both agree on something in-between.

After a decision that small is made, however, I doubt the dynamics of the relationship--of either individual--will have changed. Changing an individual is particularly what worries me about compromise. There are things that I will not change about myself for someone else. If my partner demands of me that I start regularly drinking alcohol, the relationship would probably end very quickly. I don't drink at all, never have . . . if it's really, really important for my partner to drink, and I really like her and feel we connect in deeper ways on different levels, then maybe I'd drink on her birthday. Any more casual relationship, I'd laugh in his/her face.

The smaller the weight of the compromise, the more likely I'd be willing to make the "sacrifice." Also, the more "in love" I feel I am with my partner, the more likely I'd be willing to compromise. Even so, I'm sure of at least a handful of things about myself that I'll never change--not even if God, in traditional anthropomorphic form, came down and commanded me to yield. (Silly caveat: I'd be more inclined to compromise for someone I really love than for something claiming to be "God").

Minerva, our positions probably aren't that far apart . . . as long as you really believe & accept that 'to an extent' part in what I quoted of you above.

[mkay]

Compromise is necessary for any two-party relationship where both parties are individuals, as you say, to an extent. Technically, if I want to go for Chinese food, and my partner wants to go for Italian food, there'll need to be some compromise if we are to go for food together--whether I relent, she relents, or we both agree on something in-between.

After a decision that small is made, however, I doubt the dynamics of the relationship--of either individual--will have changed. Changing an individual is particularly what worries me about compromise. There are things that I will not change about myself for someone else.

Exactly. Even as an extrovert, I think constantly pressuring an introvert to hang out with my friends, go places he doesn't want to go, or give up personal space goes beyond compromising. You're asking the introvert to become more of an extrovert.

[deuteros]

You and your damn need for space. Over the past holiday weekend, I was originally not going to be around, and at the last minuite my plans got cancelled. I tell her, and her reply "well to be honest, this kind of pisses me off, I was planning to have a weekend to my self". She wasn't pissed at me, but the outside source that screwed my plans. I was kind of hurt, thinking my g/f would relish being with her b/f especially for a holiday weekend.

I can totally relate. I am actually a very flexible, laid back person. However I like to know what the plan is beforehand and once the plan has been made I don't want to change it.

[ElstonGunn]

On the selfish/demanding subject, my thought is why should I compromise just for the sake of being in a relationship? Here's me-- if you like that, that's alright, and if you don't like it, go look for someone you do like. Of course, it all depends on what the compromise is exactly and how often I'd have to do it. But on major things, I don't see the point of changing things about myself just to keep a girl. If women think that I'm bad or defective or that I need to change, I don't mind being single. Too much change would be more upsetting to me than too much loneliness.

[mkay]

On the selfish/demanding subject, my thought is why should I compromise just for the sake of being in a relationship? Here's me-- if you like that, that's alright, and if you don't like it, go look for someone you do like. Of course, it all depends on what the compromise is exactly and how often I'd have to do it. But on major things, I don't see the point of changing things about myself just to keep a girl. If women think that I'm bad or defective or that I need to change, I don't mind being single. Too much change would be more upsetting to me than too much loneliness.

Well said. I'd rather be alone than change who I am. Same in reverse: I don't expect the other person to change for me.

[PortInStorm]

In my opinion INTJs can be very touchy about criticism, especially if you are deemed to be questioning their competence. So they are usually not as objective and detached as they are claimed to be. Hey, they're only human after all. As always, tread carefully!



She hates sudden changes in plans. In my experience, most INTJ women don't like surprises. They don't like things being forced upon them.
Note to men: consult your INTJ woman before planning that surprise weekend getaway trip.



It's a strange kind of paradox -- on the one hand, INTJ women are so independent that they can be happily left to their own devices. On the other hand, they can be real hard work.

My INTJ friend describes herself as easy going, but I think she's far from it. I've jokingly called her "high-maintenance", but there's more than a grain of truth in there, at least from the point of view of a non-INTJ. They're not high-maintenance in the traditional sense, but rather in the sense that they can get pissed off very easily and you need to be careful that you don't set those triggers off.

INTJ women can get into very dark moods and can brew up one hell of a storm. They can turn from warm and friendly to cold and aloof in an instant.

Yep, that just about perfectly describes me. Thank goodness- I thought I was wierd for my dark moods that seemingly contradicted the INTJ descriptions. Thank goodness my ESFJ husband knows these triggers for the most part, avoids them, and overlooks the moods. My ENTP friend used to just laugh at them (also a good response, then I start realizing how ridiculous I'm being) or ask if he'd offended me (he was a quick learner), he was almost never overwhelmed by them- I was amazed that he could still think I was a good person despite this, focusing on my good attributes.





2ndtimestudent added to this post, 1 minutes and 19 seconds later...

Well said. I'd rather be alone than change who I am. Same in reverse: I don't expect the other person to change for me.
In fact, my respect would go down for the person if they changed fundamental things about themselves for my sake.

[Minerva]

A few have beat me to offering some of what I want to say, but I still want to reply in my own words.

Compromise is necessary for any two-party relationship where both parties are individuals, as you say, to an extent. Technically, if I want to go for Chinese food, and my partner wants to go for Italian food, there'll need to be some compromise if we are to go for food together--whether I relent, she relents, or we both agree on something in-between.

After a decision that small is made, however, I doubt the dynamics of the relationship--of either individual--will have changed. Changing an individual is particularly what worries me about compromise. There are things that I will not change about myself for someone else. If my partner demands of me that I start regularly drinking alcohol, the relationship would probably end very quickly. I don't drink at all, never have . . . if it's really, really important for my partner to drink, and I really like her and feel we connect in deeper ways on different levels, then maybe I'd drink on her birthday. Any more casual relationship, I'd laugh in his/her face.

The smaller the weight of the compromise, the more likely I'd be willing to make the "sacrifice." Also, the more "in love" I feel I am with my partner, the more likely I'd be willing to compromise. Even so, I'm sure of at least a handful of things about myself that I'll never change--not even if God, in traditional anthropomorphic form, came down and commanded me to yield. (Silly caveat: I'd be more inclined to compromise for someone I really love than for something claiming to be "God").

Minerva, our positions probably aren't that far apart . . . as long as you really believe & accept that 'to an extent' part in what I quoted of you above.

No, our positions are not far apart at all. You just put it all down more loquaciously! :thumbsup:

That's one of the things I love most about INTJs. You see every side and if given enough time to string your thoughts together, you present one hell of an argument! ;)





Minerva added to this post, 1 minutes and 50 seconds later...

I can totally relate. I am actually a very flexible, laid back person. However I like to know what the plan is beforehand and once the plan has been made I don't want to change it.

Is that a Judging thing? I am equally as stubborn about plans, but as a Sensor, I am able to change things at a moment's notice.





Minerva added to this post, 9 minutes and 35 seconds later...

On the selfish/demanding subject, my thought is why should I compromise just for the sake of being in a relationship? Here's me-- if you like that, that's alright, and if you don't like it, go look for someone you do like. Of course, it all depends on what the compromise is exactly and how often I'd have to do it. But on major things, I don't see the point of changing things about myself just to keep a girl. If women think that I'm bad or defective or that I need to change, I don't mind being single. Too much change would be more upsetting to me than too much loneliness.

A person should not have to change who he or she is for someone else. However, if two people are in a well-working relationship there HAS to be mutual respect, understanding and a degree of compromise that both partners are comfortable with.

However, so many people go into a relationship thinking: "Oh, I can change this person, mold or push him/her into his/her true potential." This is a bad idea. First off, only the person in question knows what he/she is ready for. This sort of rationale, of lack there of, only results in pushing the other person away. Not to mention all the hurt feelings and lost time etc...

In the end, however, I can only pray that some lessons are learned. Although sometimes, there are lessons learned that may have been better left unknown. Oh well...

[ElstonGunn]

A person should not have to change who he or she is for someone else.

That's the thing. I'll generally refuse to change if I'm expected to or if someone is trying to force me to change. If she'd enjoy it if I changed but wasn't so egotistical that she expected or demanded it, then I'd be much more willing to do it. It's the coercive part that irritates me and turns me into an uncompromising prick.

[Minerva]

That's the thing. I'll generally refuse to change if I'm expected to or if someone is trying to force me to change. If she'd enjoy it if I changed but wasn't so egotistical that she expected or demanded it, then I'd be much more willing to do it. It's the coercive part that irritates me and turns me into an uncompromising prick.

I'm the same way (except for becoming a prick part! :p). The use of force is the worst way of getting someone to do something. Instead, present a well thought out argument and allow the person the time and space to see for his/herself the benefits of change. Then maybe, in the end, something very positive and beneficial will come of it.

[mkay]

Is that a Judging thing? I am equally as stubborn about plans, but as a Sensor, I am able to change things at a moment's notice.

From what I've read, it's a J/P thing. My INTJ is more planned, scheduled, routined. As an ENTP, I don't care about plans, go with the flow. He stresses if he doesn't arrive somewhere on time. I don't.

[Minerva]

From what I've read, it's a J/P thing. My INTJ is more planned, scheduled, routined. As an ENTP, I don't care about plans, go with the flow. He stresses if he doesn't arrive somewhere on time. I don't.

Yeah, I think you are right. It's a J vs P thing. I generally HATE being late, but I have learned not to be so harsh (with myself and with others who aren't punctual). I have become more P in the last couple of years. A little more laid back, like my INTP friend. He actually dislikes deadlines and sticking to plans absolutely. I prefer it. This is why I question whether or not I can live with a P. Sometimes they just take too long to make a concrete decision!

[mkay]

Yeah, I think you are right its a J vs P thing. I generally HATE being late, but I have learned not to be so harsh (with myself and with others who aren't punctual). I have become more P in the last couple of years. A little more laid back, like my INTP friend. He actually dislikes deadlines and sticking to plans absolutely. I prefer it. This is why I question whether or not I can live with a P. Sometimes they just take too long to make a concrete decision!

The funny thing about my INTJ: He'll tell me I should get going even if I'm going somewhere by myself, to a party or such. Umm, people don't arrive on the dot for parties, and umm, you're not going, why do you care if anyone arrives on time at all? Lol. It's endearing that he cares.

I think the J/P indecision thing depends on the degree of J/Pness. I'm 79 percent P, but I have marked J qualities and I'm decisive. At the same time, I don't like forcing/coercing people. So I have to be patient with people who can't voice an opinion. I'm flexible; I'd just rather know what you'd prefer to do so I know I'm not forcing you.

[PortInStorm]

Ahhh, another piece of the ENTP puzzle. That's why they always ask that.....

[mkay]

Ahhh, another piece of the ENTP puzzle. That's why they always ask that.....

I'm glad if that helps, but I don't want to seem like I'm speaking for all ENTPs. I can only tell you my reasoning. ... When I ask, I'm being considerate. If another person weren't involved, I'd have no hesitation deciding. I know what I prefer, but I can enjoy a lot of things, am open to the unexpected.

I get annoyed with people who frequently say, "I don't know." (OK, if you don't know, should I decide for you, or are you going to be unhappy with what I decide? Or are you saying that you don't have a preference at all? Or do you need to go home and consult your Ouija board before you decide? Lol.) ... Not like I'm going to freak out about that kind of thing, but people who don't have preferences (or can't express them) aren't people I'm going to enjoy hanging with regularly. I don't want to be in an unequal relationship / friendship where I'm calling all the shots. If that's the case, my own company is preferable.

[PortInStorm]

No, that's true, everyone is still an individual regardless of type. But from what I know of my friend, these motivations seem similar. He never respects without equality, and respect is needed for a fair relationship. He also is very open and inquisitive, such as you suggest.

For myself, I'd never want a relationship of 'unequals' because it's just so friggin' tiring. ("What? I'm deciding and planning again? Jeez..")

[Romeo]

I agree with you about the concept of both people being willing to compromise. I'm a female and more "independent" or autonomous than some women, and I think you have to accept the basic fundametals of a perons in order for a relationship to be successful. However, if I if I care enough about a person I will be willing or even want to compromise. There has to be a certain amount of give in take. Especially if you want to be with someone so different than you like an INTJ-ESFP relationship. Compromise doesn't always mean weakness, sometimes it illustrates strength.
Gosh, it's hard for me to believe that an INTJ/ESFP relationshiip works.

[ScurvyRose]

One of the biggest problems that I run into in a relationship is the planning factor. I want to know what plans are in place for a rolling 48 hour timespan minimum. Am I seeing him tonight, tommorrow or the night after? Whatever gets worked out is fine, I just need to know.

If you can't make it, are running over 1/2 hour late, or whatever, do not leave me hanging as I will assume the worst and the detachment process will initiate. I have to be able to believe you, actions must match words.

I will take the lead sometimes to show that I care, but I will not do it all the time. If you do not do it at all, I will call you on it and the detachment process has begun.


Apparently these traits drive people away, or I give up trying.

[thecat]

great post! Hence there are many INTJ's enjoyed the post, I understand that we guys have these problems in common more or less. The thing is, the post explains what we are and how we act , the sequence could be how to treat people and what external data to consider to be in a desired relationship/ relatedness state. Strategies to prevent failure.
I could post it in the meantime maybe. With contribution it could be a guide.

[Tough Love]

Absolutely brilliant! Ide add ''no sudden surprises'' :P
e.g: my bf booked us a ticket to amsterdam for a couple of days which was very sweet. But there were things i needed to do such like arrange someone to fill in for work etc - then he couldnt understand why i spent most of the hol stressed and worried about what was going on back home!

[ENFP]

I see many threads here from people other than INTJs who are asking for relationship advice of some kind. Usually the message is titled something along the lines of "help me decode..." or something. Just to make it clear, I'm not making this post because I'm annoyed, but it might be a helpful reference for those who make these posts to give a few basic ground rules. The statements I'm about to make are in reference to myself and my own experiences, but I believe they apply to other INTJ types as well.

1. Don't read into it. Yes, INTJs are complex and whatnot, but not when it comes to relationships. When we say something, we mean it. If we tell you we can't do something or won't, it isn't because we don't like you, it's because we believe you asked for advice and we are giving it to you.

2. INTJs generally won't play games. We don't like facades and social rituals. We won't chase you if you're "playing hard to get" we will just leave you alone, lest we be called stalkers. I know from personal experience that once a female starts playing coy, I just move on. I might find out weeks/months/years later that she was just playing a game with me and once she's put her cards on the table we can develop something. However, at the time she played her games, I wasn't interested. I like enigmas in everything but relationships. I like to know when the game's afoot.

3. Be honest. You like an INTJ, tell him/her about it. Don't wait for the INTJ to approach you, we generally won't do it, or even if we do, you might not even notice. I can't imagine an INTJ disliking it when someone is honest with them and says "hey, I think you're cool and I want you". Sure, it might end with them telling you just as honestly that they aren't interested, but they will appreciate your candor and you will appreciate not having to guess anymore.

4. We generally aren't going to fit in with your friends. Most INTJs just don't like associating with others, they have a close knit group of people that they will associate with and even with them not all the time. Don't invite an INTJ to go hang out with you and your friends at a club and then puzzle at why they declined your invitation or looked like they weren't having any fun if they don't decline. If you invite an INTJ to go to a social gathering of your choosing and the INTJ accepts, then the INTJ in question is most definitely interested in you. If said INTJ goes to the party and sits in a corner all night not talking to anyone, it isn't because they don't like you, it's because they don't like the situation you've put them in.

5. Don't puzzle us. INTJs have a difficult enough time understanding what you mean when you start speaking a love language without you clouding it further by trying to get us to read between the lines. You'll have better luck teaching a rock to read between the lines. This goes back to the honesty, but on a different level. If you have something to say, just say it. Don't go beating around the bush, just come out with it, we will appreciate you for doing so.

6. We aren't afraid of criticism. What we don't like is people with whom we have lost favor with but have no idea why. We are secure enough in our positions and ways that we don't care if you don't like it, therefore it won't hurt us if you say so. If you are important to the INTJ though, obviously the INTJ will try to cure whatever it is that's troubling you. But we absolutely MUST be told what it is. You don't have to be brutal, but don't sugar coat things so much we can't tell if you're complementing or criticizing us.

These statements should get you far with INTJ communication. Remember to be reasonable and frank in your discussion(s) and the INTJ will feel like communication with you is possible. Try to understand, we are rationals and some of us are extreme introverts. These are not traits that are conducive to relationships which require emotion rather than reason and some degree of extroversion. I could relate to you many stories where a particular woman has acted coy while I thought I made quite clear that I was interested in them. It turns out (finding out many moons later) that they were interested and had no idea I was also.

Once you've gotten past the preliminaries, you have a whole new can of worms to deal with when you start your actual relationship with the INTJ... I might make a sequel to this depending on how this one is received. For now, I'll leave it to the board for agreement/disagreement.
Thanks for this user's guide to first encounters with INTJness. Follow, if you are going to make your announced follow-up on how it is a whole new can of worms to actually be in a relationship with a INTJ, I'd be very interested. Do INTJs change their ways all of a sudden or what kind of hitherto unknown aspects of INTJness do you have in mind? I guess I automatically try to predict what a relationship with 'my' INTJ would be like from how he acts in the preliminaries, but your post suggests that there will be a huge difference between INTJness when getting to know eachother and INTJness when actually in a loving relationship?
Anyway, hope to learn more!
Best,
from ENFP in wonderland

[ElstonGunn]

Do INTJs change their ways all of a sudden or what kind of hitherto unknown aspects of INTJness do you have in mind? I guess I automatically try to predict what a relationship with 'my' INTJ would be like from how he acts in the preliminaries, but your post suggests that there will be a huge difference between INTJness when getting to know eachother and INTJness when actually in a loving relationship?

It can look that way to an outside observer, but not to us. We never change. :p

That difference in opinion comes from the fact that we have an outer-self and an inner-self. The outer self is what everybody sees. If we go buy a pair of socks, the cashier sees our outer-self. Most of our work acquaintances, and sometimes even family members see the outer-self.

The inner-self is who we "really are." There might be as many as half a dozen or as few as one person who regularly sees that part of us (depending on the INTJ in question). If you get "promoted" from the outer world to the inner world, it might seem like he's a different person in a lot of ways. He can (that's "can," not "always will") lose a lot of the INTJ crotchetiness. He'll probably still be distrustful and nervous about emotional things, but the big change is that he might be willing to dip his toe into the emotional pool. If you want more of that, be careful how you respond to it-- ignoring it will make us think you didn't like it, but too much acknowledgment or making a big deal out of it will scare us off (like if you chased a squirrel, even if you wanted to give it a hug). In short, we'll share more and show you more of our F side and "soften" to some extent, especially if you're an F-type yourself.

[ENFP]

Thank you! I was afraid INTJ-intensity and interest would fade in the case of 'mission accomplished' = relationship.

[Imposcillator]

1. Don't read into it.
2. INTJs generally won't play games.
3. Be honest.
4. We generally aren't going to fit in with your friends.
5. Don't puzzle us.
6. We aren't afraid of criticism.

Excellent, excellent points.

I guess I am quite the atypical INTJ in that I can express emotion quite well, especially when it's intense (i.e. I am deeply in love with someone), although I do find it difficult to put it to words compared to how readily I can explain abstract concepts or other things that interest me.

I believe I have developed this ability because of a lack of communication in my previous relationships. I still make most of my decisions based on thought (I hit a 95% T if I remember correctly) but I am not completely and utterly crippled when it comes to expressing emotion.

Finally, I have to partially disagree with number 4. While it is true that I generally don't fit with many people I would be willing to make some compromises and try to be civil with my SO's friends and family because that's what you do when you love someone. If anything, INTJs are known for their ability to adapt, so if we really put our mind to it we could make some sacrifices. Just because we're special/different doesn't mean we need to be obnoxious and stubborn.

Just my ¢2. :)