Struggling with a closed INTJ

[kangaji]

Okay here's the deal. Ive been dating a INTJ for close to 2 years. and it has been full of ups and downs. We broke up several times. probably due to his inability to understand his feelings and me being quite an immature ENFP (struggling with emotions but i think this rlshp helps me mature). I managed to soften him up and make him face his feelings and he was trying so hard at the relationship but then i crushed him by breaking up with him and starting to date right after (yes, i was an ass. it eats me from inside everyday... ): ) but i realised i really do want him but then problems start again cause of the INTJ AND ENFP frustrations of miscomm. but i think now its the worst.
Now, im lost and frustrated. Im trying real hard to understand him and thinking along the same lines of his mind. He says he has no intention to engage in a relationship now. but he is still with me. albeit he's not trying or giving much or at all to the relationship in all regards (time, physical touch, communication etc) So what does this mean??? and what can i do to soften him up (again) or stay sane while trying to reach there. Please help, everyday im struggling T_T

[Cooper]

You hurt the guy. Chances of getting him to "soften up" again? Slim to none.

[JC22]

Ouch!

Having a girl break up with me is one thing, but having her date another guy right after? I would move on after that.

[kangaji]

then why is he still with me...?

[JC22]

then why is he still with me...?

He may respect you(what you ment to him) enough to stay, but not want to do it all again because he doesn't want to risk getting hurt again. Most likely trying picking up his shattered pieces and planning his next move.

[kangaji]

okay i should probably explain why i did it. i was quite shaken from the first break up (by him) where he broke up w me and told me he was thinking of getting tgthr with the other girl that liked him. thus born trust issues. and the constant question of is he what i really want?? so yea i was kinda emotionally damaged when i did all that. im really not that kind of girl ): so yes i deeply regret... and am sticking to him and giving my all (although it hurts and everyone says why are u staying if u hurt =/) partly doing this cause it happened before where he closed up (cause he was confused of his feelings) and i just stuck till he softened...

[Cooper]

If he is not giving anything to the relationship....time, physical touch, communication....how is that a relationship? How is he "with you"?

[kangaji]

He may respect you(what you ment to him) enough to stay, but not want to do it all again because he doesn't want to risk getting hurt again. Most likely trying picking up his shattered pieces and planning his next move.
Its been 1/2 a year since that foolish decision... right after he was still giving to the relationship. but because of the miscomm, we still struggled with the relationship... but im realising the errs in my ways and trying to change cept its difficult when youre not getting your type of assurances...

btw what would his next move be? would it be wise to say that my steps and actions now would be determining factor to his next move? if so what should i do to get back into his good books and let this relationship mature...?

---------- Post added 10-03-2011 at 03:51 PM ----------

If he is not giving anything to the relationship....time, physical touch, communication....how is that a relationship? How is he "with you"?
yea thats why its messing me up... but okay maybe he is giving it to be just that compared to before its really minimal. and he's not broken up with me so its a relationship in name?

[CaelestisPeste]

okay i should probably explain why i did it. i was quite shaken from the first break up (by him) where he broke up w me and told me he was thinking of getting tgthr with the other girl that liked him. thus born trust issues. and the constant question of is he what i really want?? so yea i was kinda emotionally damaged when i did all that. im really not that kind of girl ): so yes i deeply regret... and am sticking to him and giving my all (although it hurts and everyone says why are u staying if u hurt =/) partly doing this cause it happened before where he closed up (cause he was confused of his feelings) and i just stuck till he softened...

There's already this much tension and drama. In terms of a long term relationship, do you really think it's going to work out? Do you really like the guy or are you just trying to repair a broken relationship (some people enjoy fixing things)?

[kangaji]

There's already this much tension and drama. In terms of a long term relationship, do you really think it's going to work out? Do you really like the guy or are you just trying to repair a broken relationship (some people enjoy fixing things)?
yea perhaps the ENFP in me finding it hard to walk away from a bad relationship and the need to work at it if not itll make me feel that i have not tried... but i mean if i dont try i wont know right?? =/ but after learning more abt INTJs recently, ive slowly grasped my feelings of why i want to be with him. It is indeed a joy to be with him (idiosyncrasies and all) and i do believe this relationship can be enjoyable and beneficial to us and is probably the best (and longest) ive ever been in...

[CaelestisPeste]

yea perhaps the ENFP in me finding it hard to walk away from a bad relationship and the need to work at it if not itll make me feel that i have not tried... but i mean if i dont try i wont know right?? =/

Well, if the relationship problems does become resolved and there's nothing to fix, will you still want to be with him?

Nvm, I'll just leave it here. Too lazy to edit.

[kangaji]

Well, if the relationship problems does become resolved and there's nothing to fix, will you still want to be with him?

Ok I need to edit this.
yeaps definitely.

[Cooper]

INTJ and ENFP relationships can be very good......they are an excellent match. But keep in mind that INTJs are cave dewellers, once we go into our cave because we have been hurt, its very difficult to get us to come back out. We may not show our feelings, but we can be hurt very deeply, and that pain will make us distant.

[kangaji]

INTJ and ENFP relationships can be very good......they are an excellent match. But keep in mind that INTJs are cave dewellers, once we go into our cave because we have been hurt, its very difficult to get us to come back out. We may not show our feelings, but we can be hurt very deeply, and that pain will make us distant.
i understand ): and i learnt it the hard way...

[Cooper]

Sometimes we never come back to that close again.....

[CaelestisPeste]

Horrible writing aside, did you tell him how you felt about what happened (a heart to heart talk about the break-ups and reasons) and how much you like him? This will definitely take time, so you probably shouldn't hurry it. If anything, he's probably thinking about how to deal with this situation as well. Was there anything both of you were fond of doing together? Maybe you can try to help him recollect the good experience from the past. Might work.

[kangaji]

Horrible writing aside, did you tell him how you felt about what happened (a heart to heart talk about the break-ups and reasons) and how much you like him? This will definitely take time, so you probably shouldn't hurry it. If anything, he's probably thinking about how to deal with this situation as well. Was there anything both of you were fond of doing together? Maybe you can try to help him recollect the good experience from the past. Might work.

anw, thankyou, this advice is helpful (: im trying to. but he doesnt like to talk abt it often at this point of time. so yes time... Recollecting good experience sounds good! but im afraid that if i try to remind him of the past, he might remember the negative too? and it might backfire?

[CaelestisPeste]

anw, thankyou, this advice is helpful (: im trying to. but he doesnt like to talk abt it often at this point of time. so yes time... Recollecting good experience sounds good! but im afraid that if i try to remind him of the past, he might remember the negative too? and it might backfire?

I'm assuming both of you are ignoring each other?
Even if he does remember the negative, which he probably will, at least both of you can talk it out (you both might even get emotional); it's going to be a risk, but it's better than letting him sulk alone. Besides, you're going to talk to him sooner or later. It's better if you initiate to show you want to resolve this issue than to wait and have him make his own decision, alone and depressed.

[kangaji]

I'm assuming both of you are ignoring each other?
Even if he does remember the negative, which he probably will, at least both of you can talk it out (you both might even get emotional); it's going to be a risk, but it's better than letting him sulk alone. Besides, you're going to talk to him sooner or later. It's better if you initiate to show you want to resolve this issue than to wait and have him make his own decision, alone and depressed.
nopes, not ignoring. we're talking but i feel is on a very surface level. Thing is, after getting back together, it was actually quite okay. and it was normal just struggling with the ENFP and INTJ miscomms. but other life issues arose for him (financial and such) and thus he decided to make life decisions regarding human relationships in general (friendships etc) and i guess i felt like im being in the direct line of fire... so i put the relationship under scrutiny... but i do have a problem of trying to talk to him proper about the issues without pulling too many emotions into it.

[Shadizar]

Okay here's the deal. Ive been dating a INTJ for close to 2 years. and it has been full of ups and downs. We broke up several times. probably due to his inability to understand his feelings and me being quite an immature ENFP (struggling with emotions but i think this rlshp helps me mature). I managed to soften him up and make him face his feelings and he was trying so hard at the relationship but then i crushed him by breaking up with him and starting to date right after (yes, i was an ass. it eats me from inside everyday... ): ) but i realised i really do want him but then problems start again cause of the INTJ AND ENFP frustrations of miscomm. but i think now its the worst.
Now, im lost and frustrated. Im trying real hard to understand him and thinking along the same lines of his mind. He says he has no intention to engage in a relationship now. but he is still with me. albeit he's not trying or giving much or at all to the relationship in all regards (time, physical touch, communication etc) So what does this mean??? and what can i do to soften him up (again) or stay sane while trying to reach there. Please help, everyday im struggling T_T

If he's heartless, you hang around; if he becomes feely, you fuck off. It's simple really, how you missed it is beyond me; but you really fucked yourself on this one.

[CaelestisPeste]

nopes, not ignoring. we're talking but i feel is on a very surface level. Thing is, after getting back together, it was actually quite okay. and it was normal just struggling with the ENFP and INTJ miscomms. but other life issues arose for him (financial and such) and thus he decided to make life decisions regarding human relationships in general (friendships etc) and i guess i felt like im being in the direct line of fire... so i put the relationship under scrutiny... but i do have a problem of trying to talk to him proper about the issues without pulling too many emotions into it.

Comforting him during his time of need would bring some trust back into the relationship. He might be frigid right now, not just because he's an INTJ, but also because he's a man, and he doesn't want to show that he has issues or problem: financial or emotional. I would think having an INTJ being emotional is going let you have an honest conversation.

Maybe you should check out this thread (it's a lot to read, but it should help (your grammar)): To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If he's heartless, you hang around; if he becomes feely, you fuck off. It's simple really, how you missed it is beyond me; but you really fucked yourself on this one. Suffer.

That does bring up a good point. I hope you're not a masochist.

[kangaji]

If he's heartless, you hang around; if he becomes feely, you fuck off. It's simple really, how you missed it is beyond me; but you really fucked yourself on this one.
somehow i agree with this. i made a huge mistake. but i guess suffering is an option.

---------- Post added 10-03-2011 at 06:00 PM ----------

Comforting him during his time of need would bring some trust back into the relationship. He might be frigid right now, not just because he's an INTJ, but also because he's a man, and he doesn't want to show that he has issues or problem: financial or emotional. I would think having an INTJ being emotional is going let you have an honest conversation.

Maybe you should check out this thread (it's a lot to read, but it should help (your grammar)): To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



That does bring up a good point. I hope you're not a masochist.
comforting him and just being there for him and stop complaining and pointing out faults right? haha thankyou again. nopes not a masochist, an optimist gone wrong.

[catzmeow]

What is there to save? You were given the gift of his emotions (what you begged for), and then you threw them on the floor and stomped on them. You are not emotionally ready for a serious relationship. Grow up, and leave this poor guy alone. Haven't you hurt him enough?

Even now, you're less concerned about the fact that you crushed his heart like a bug than you are about looking for tricks and angles you can use to trick him into being vulnerable to you. I don't see you expressing any real remorse. You are behaving like a narcissist who broke her toy and now wants to figure out how to fix it so she can play with it again.

This guy is a human being and your behavior was cruel and despicable. You do not deserve a relationship with him.

[Lucrezia Borgia]

What is there to save? You were given the gift of his emotions (what you begged for), and then you threw them on the floor and stomped on them. You are not emotionally ready for a serious relationship. Grow up, and leave this poor guy alone. Haven't you hurt him enough?

Even now, you're less concerned about the fact that you crushed his heart like a bug than you are about looking for tricks and angles you can use to trick him into being vulnerable to you. I don't see you expressing any real remorse. You are behaving like a narcissist who broke her toy and now wants to figure out how to fix it so she can play with it again.

This guy is a human being and your behavior was cruel and despicable. You do not deserve a relationship with him.

Catz is right. If I were in his position, I would have cut you out of my life forever. I think the challenge of winning him back is your whole motivation. Very immature.

[Grimace]

I still hang out with people I've blacklisted in terms of affection and trust. You may have permanently burned that bridge, at least deep down. The casual way that immature ENFP's can hurt people (having ENFP friends etc), I can tell you, is something an INTJ pretty much never forgets.

[ricearoni]

Geez louise! Was something seriously evil and unforgivable edited out of the original post because I'm not quite understanding the intensity of the responses so far.

It seems to me that the guy did the typical grass is greener asshole move, that some guys do when they're young and immature and she just threw it back at him. Yes it's immature what she did (so is what he did), but whatever, people do stupid things when it comes to matters of the heart. She admitted she was wrong and she apologized, so I'm not sure why everyone is treating him like a puppy that's been kicked in the head.

Anyway....

nopes, not ignoring. we're talking but i feel is on a very surface level. Thing is, after getting back together, it was actually quite okay. and it was normal just struggling with the ENFP and INTJ miscomms. but other life issues arose for him (financial and such) and thus he decided to make life decisions regarding human relationships in general (friendships etc) and i guess i felt like im being in the direct line of fire... so i put the relationship under scrutiny... but i do have a problem of trying to talk to him proper about the issues without pulling too many emotions into it.

Ok, so if things were fine when you got back together and they only got weird when he started having problems in his life...why are you even going back to all the old crap and dwelling on it? The problem isn't the past, the problem is what he's going through right now. So I agree with CaelestisPeste that comforting him would probably be more helpful. I mean, the last thing a person wants to deal with when they're stressed out, is someone who is unhappy with them and making more demands.

[Cooper]

Nothing was edited out......the poster gave more info as the thread progressed. Some responces where to incomplete information.

[changos]

then why is he still with me...?
he might be polite, kind, I don't think he is ever going to open up like before.

If you insist he will make you feel his pain.

[Shoshana]

Geez louise! Was something seriously evil and unforgivable edited out of the original post because I'm not quite understanding the intensity of the responses so far.

It seems to me that the guy did the typical grass is greener asshole move, that some guys do when they're young and immature and she just threw it back at him. Yes it's immature what she did (so is what he did), but whatever, people do stupid things when it comes to matters of the heart. She admitted she was wrong and she apologized, so I'm not sure why everyone is treating him like a puppy that's been kicked in the head.

.I agree. Sounds like an hysterical lynch mob here.

I think it would be more constructive to talk about how she might handle it differently if such a thing should occur again with someone else in the future.


As for this guy, time to be assertive and ask him yes, or no...does he think enough damage has been done that they need a break? then give him his freedom.

---------- Post added 10-03-2011 at 10:23 PM ----------



Ok, so if things were fine when you got back together and they only got weird when he started having problems in his life...why are you even going back to all the old crap and dwelling on it? The problem isn't the past, the problem is what he's going through right now. So I agree with CaelestisPeste that comforting him would probably be more helpful. I mean, the last thing a person wants to deal with when they're stressed out, is someone who is unhappy with them and making more demands.Yep...establish what exactly is causing the unhappiness and deal with it accordingly.

[rkostyk]

I lived with my BF for a few months even after it was over...it was not comfortable. But every relationship that ended for me I can tell you this when it was over for me it was over...I saw no purpose in dragging ourselves through all of those emotions over and over just to get back to the same place and say "its over" :(

[catzmeow]

I still hang out with people I've blacklisted in terms of affection and trust. You may have permanently burned that bridge, at least deep down. The casual way that immature ENFP's can hurt people (having ENFP friends etc), I can tell you, is something an INTJ pretty much never forgets.

Immature ENFPs need to hear that their (sometimes) callous actions have long-lasting consequences, because they do.

[ManWithNoName]

Oh, wow, this is a tough one. You both seem to have communications problems which led to an erosion of trust which led to break ups and then emotionally fueled revenge drama crap probably on both your parts to some degree.

anw, thankyou, this advice is helpful (: im trying to. but he doesnt like to talk abt it often at this point of time. so yes time... Recollecting good experience sounds good! but im afraid that if i try to remind him of the past, he might remember the negative too? and it might backfire?

Have you ever sat down and really talked about things? Talked about the problems and history between you to? You seem reluctant to want to bring up the past because you feel that it has too much negativity. However I think you need to realize examining the past with him is the only way you can figure out what went wrong in order for you both to try and fix it. I think you are avoiding confrontation in this manner a bit and instead are looking for ways or tricks to 'win' him back, I think you just need to confront this manner head on.

If you bring it up and he really doesn't want to talk about it and really doesn't want to deal with it then I'm sorry to tell you that it's most likely because he just doesn't want to deal with the relationship and views it as something beyond repair and doesn't see any value in expending the effort required to repair it. If this is true you need to just move on. If he is un-willing to fix it then he is un-willing to fix it and there is really nothing you can change to make him want to fix it. It sucks, but it's life. Live and learn.

[malaclypse]

okay, i'm not sure what the posters who haven't seen the offense haven't read into the OP's verbage, but as an intj i can't imagine any reconciliation to this if it were a circumstance with myself.
probably due to his inability to understand his feelings..... yeah, it was probably his fault all along.
I managed to soften him up and make him face his feelings wow, how benevolent of you
but then i crushed him by breaking up with him and starting to date right after DONE and DONE!
but i realised i really do want him but then problems start again who cares what you realized?! What you didn't realize is that he wants nothing to do with you. PERIOD. He says he has no intention to engage in a relationship now. then MOVE ALONG! Your confusion must be coming from the fact that he lacks the assertiveness to tell you to F* OFF, which I can almost guarantee he intends with his mannerisms. Don't be confused -- leave him alone.

[ricearoni]

who cares what you realized?! What you didn't realize is that he wants nothing to do with you. PERIOD. then MOVE ALONG! Your confusion must be coming from the fact that he lacks the assertiveness to tell you to F* OFF, which I can almost guarantee he intends with his mannerisms. Don't be confused -- leave him alone.

So....he still hangs around her because deep down inside he wants her to get lost. Yup, that makes a lot of sense. Hang out with someone you don't want to be around in order to get rid of them.

[Loud Silence]

He may respect you(what you ment to him) enough to stay, but not want to do it all again because he doesn't want to risk getting hurt again. Most likely trying picking up his shattered pieces and planning his next move.

I totally agree.


he broke up w me and told me he was thinking of getting tgthr with the other girl that liked him.

I'm confused to why he told you this...most INTJ's would never hand out free information like that. He may have been disgusted with the ENFP's tenancy to want to make everyone feel special, causing him to feel like he was tossed in the big warm load with everyone else when he should have had some individuality to you aside from all your other friends.

i just stuck till he softened...

If you think you can soften an INTJ you're fooled.

[ricearoni]

If you think you can soften an INTJ you're fooled.

...Cause they're already soft.

[Shoshana]

...Cause they're already soft.yes they are. I've seen the soft side, for sure. It comes from being soft yourself without losing your core. :-)

[Cooper]

If you think you can soften an INTJ you're fooled.

A lot of people think they can, but in reality...very, very few can. Getting close to the heart of an INTJ, hense 'softening' one is difficult. Think of an INTJ as a shooters target...lots of circles within more circles until you have a bullseye in the middle. The bullseye is our heart, the soft spot. Back up a few hundred yards and try to hit the bullseye......very few poeple can do that on the first try, and with an INTJ, that is usually all you get...one try.

...Cause they're already soft.

We may be, but we are very protective of ourselves. If you have hurt us we will not show you our bellies, nor our deep pain. No matter how many times you ask.....

[ricearoni]

We may be, but we are very protective of ourselves. If you have hurt us we will not show you our bellies, nor our deep pain. No matter how many times you ask.....

From what I've noticed, an INTJ is just like any other person. If they like you, they open up to you and if you hurt them, you'll know cause they'll get upset and act differently. Also, depending on how much they like you, you can get multiple chances to fix things.

I think it's only different when they're not interested (well not aware that someone is interested and are ambivalent towards the person), then maybe in that instance you've only got one try to get to their soft spot.

[Cooper]

Well, I guess being an INTJ means I don't know a thing about them, then. Forgive me my ignorance.

[ricearoni]

You're forgiven. :p

Anyway, I wasn't trying to say that I know you better than you know yourself. I'm just not seeing how it's that much harder to get close to an INTJ than it is to get close to any other type.

[Cooper]

We don't like people. They piss us off. They annoy us. They insist on talking to us. They are in our way. They do very stupid things. They are illogical.

Do you want to cuddle with a pissed off Grizzly Bear that is tired of people because they do the things they do?

[Reddkatz]

^^

That's why it's hard to get close to INTJs. I have been known to bite off heads of potential suitors because I had no interest in them. I do the chasing because I have found someone that I think can tolerate my bullshit. I don't like to be chased.

[spect]

From what I've noticed, an INTJ is just like any other person.

have you said that to one?

im guessing you have not, or at least not one you are either trying to understand or one you are in an intimate relationship with.

[ricearoni]

I know an ENTP that's the same way and actually, that pretty much sounds like everyone I work with. I don't think being a cranky old fart is something that is exclusive to INTJs.

[JC22]

I'm just not seeing how it's that much harder to get close to an INTJ than it is to get close to any other type.


Want to try me? :)

One of the things that surprise me most in life is how hard people constantly try to win my favor even though I show zero interest in them. I guess what makes it worthwhile and interesting to them is that fact that I simply do not respond to anything they do.

[ricearoni]

have you said that to one?

im guessing you have not, or at least not one you are either trying to understand or one you are in an intimate relationship with.

It's not really something that comes up in conversation and since I knew the person before I learned their type, it's kind of an awkward thing to say. I mean saying...oh hey! You're an INTJ and according to other INTJs on a forum, you're supposed to be really hard to get to know, but whoa! You're a normal person!

It just seems kind of insensitive and random.

Also, I have pissed off a couple of INTJs and it was pretty obvious that they were upset. I mean, when you spend time with people, you learn what's normal for them and what's not.

Want to try me? :)

One of the things that surprise me most in life is how hard people constantly try to win my favor even though I show zero interest in them. I guess what makes it worthwhile and interesting to them is that fact that I simply do not respond to anything they do.

Odd, that's how it works for me too. I think it has something to do with people wanting what they can't have.

[Cooper]

I know an ENTP that's the same way and actually, that pretty much sounds like everyone I work with. I don't think being a cranky old fart is something that is exclusive to INTJs.

WTF? Again, I am an INTJ.....I know what I am like. I know what an INTJ is like. Please show me where it says that 'cranky old farts' are this way, but not INTJs? Does this mean that all those silly little words that have ever been printed about the INTJ personality are really, truely written about cranky old farts? Does this mean that INTJs are little soft cuddly bunny wabbits that spend our day frolicing in the field with butterflies? That we open ourselves up, arms open wide, smiling with delight, so anyone can get close and do whatever they wish to our rainbow beating little hearts?

Please...I beg of you....tell me what its is to be an INTJ? For I truely do not understand....

[ricearoni]

Cooper, I'm not saying that INTJs aren't capable of being cranky old farts. I'm just saying, that it's not exclusive to the type and that it's not the defining characteristic of an INTJ. Some INTJs are sociable and likable.

[Cooper]

No, you said that what I was saying was about cranky old farts...not INTJs. I have yet to see an INTJ throw their heart out onto the field for all to marvel at and play with.

[ricearoni]

Geez louise, what are we even arguing about?

Yes, what you said about grizzly bears, is about cranky old farts (young ones too) and probably angsty anti-social teenagers. Also, being guarded with your heart is something that everyone does. I mean, is there a type that likes to throw their heart out to be played with?

To me, what's unique about an INTJ is that you can't talk to them about feelings in the same way that you can talk to an NF type. But that they have feelings and are guarded about them...um...that's everybody.

[Cooper]

Excuse me, Ladies....I am going to frolic in the field with butterflies, throw my arms open wide while dancing with rainbow colored fuzzy bunnies, all to amuse myself while I longing wait for some dazzlingly beautiful woman on a Unicorn to come carry me away.....after all, I am a cranky old fart not an INTJ.

[catzmeow]

...Cause they're already soft.

You asked why people responded so strongly to the OP. Your post here is exactly why. INTJs are profoundly tender people. But, they are self-protective because they find their emotions baffling and a little scary, because they have often suffered a great deal from being misunderstood and forced to conform to social norms that are painful and uncomfortable to them, and as a result, they're extremely careful. Everything in our society suggests that being an INTJ is the wrong thing to be. They are judged for being not expressive enough, too introverted, too unemotional, too guarded.

Someone can hurt me, but I love easily, I'm relatively unguarded, and I get over things comparatively faster than an INTJ. Beyond that, people love me easily. It isn't like that for an INTJ. It is so much harder for them to allow someone close to them. To persuade an INTJ to finally allow themselves to be vulnerable with you, to strip away those layers of self-protection and finally let you in, and then kick them when you get there, is so much worse than hurting someone like me. It makes me kind of sick to think about it, truthfully.

It's so much harder for them to get there than it is someone like me, and when they do, they are so much more vulnerable than an ENFP is, relatively speaking. I mean, I'm vulnerable, but I have coping mechanisms for this sort of thing, my INTJ does not. He hasn't allowed himself to love anyone before, aside from his family. The impact on him of what the OP did would be substantially worse than it would be on me. THAT is why some of us responded as we did.

I feel incredibly protective of my INTJ (which would probably make him laugh), because I realize how vulnerable he really is, emotionally speaking. To violate that is anathema to me.

[spect]

I don't think being a cranky old fart is something that is exclusive to INTJs.

i dont think i explained that well. you see, if an intj has some personal trait that is like most others, sometimes they often dont think they are like everyone else despite if you believe that or not. i dont think you've considered that in understanding them, nor saying that in an intimate relationship with one.

[spect]

and that is why i love nf girlfriends

[ricearoni]

You asked why people responded so strongly to the OP. Your post here is exactly why. INTJs are profoundly tender people. But, they are self-protective because they find their emotions baffling and a little scary, because they have often suffered a great deal from being misunderstood and forced to conform to social norms that are painful and uncomfortable to them, and as a result, they're pretty guarded and self-protective. Everything in our society suggests that being an INTJ is the wrong thing to be. They are judged for being not expressive enough, too introverted, too unemotional, too guarded.

Someone can hurt me, but I love easily, I'm relatively unguarded, and I get over things comparatively faster than an INTJ. Beyond that, people love me easily. It isn't like that for an INTJ. It is so much harder for them to allow someone close to them. To persuade an INTJ to finally allow themselves to be vulnerable with you, to strip away those layers of self-protection and finally let you in, and then kick them when you get there, is so much worse than hurting someone like me. It makes me kind of sick to think about it, truthfully.

It's so much harder for them to get there than it is someone like me, and when they do, they are so much more vulnerable than an ENFP is, relatively speaking. I mean, I'm vulnerable, but I have coping mechanisms for this sort of thing, my INTJ does not. He hasn't allowed himself to love anyone before, aside from his family. The impact on him of what the OP did would be substantially worse than it would be on me. THAT is why some of us responded as we did.

I feel incredibly protective of my INTJ (which would probably make him laugh), because I realize how vulnerable he really is, emotionally speaking. To violate that is anathema to me.

Actually, I had asked why everyone was reacting so strongly mainly because I thought your response in particular to the OP was rather harsh and unkind. Perhaps you bounce back easily from being hurt, but that doesn't mean that every ENFP that comes to this forum is like you and not so sensitive. Also, it seems rather unhealthy to place the entire blame of the situation on her when this supposed INTJ of hers, also acted like an ass. She already admitted her faults and explained why she thought he was hurt, she was trying to learn how to fix things.

This whole INTJs are newborn puppies who are so much more vulnerable than everyone else and must be treated with extra care is ridiculous to me. I mean, that's how you're supposed to treat the people you love, regardless of their type.

[catzmeow]

Actually, I had asked why everyone was reacting so strongly mainly because I thought your response in particular to the OP was rather harsh and unkind.

I'm sure it seemed that way, to an INFJ. But INFJs aren't ENFPs. This ENFP in this thread made it her mission to strip away her INTJs defenses, and then consciously hurt him. As an ENFP, that is an unthinkable act. But, it is exactly the sort of thing that a shallow, insecure ENPF might do, BECAUSE SHE CAN. ENFPs have great powers to woo people, to get them to bring their defenses down, and let us in. With great power comes great responsibility. Perhaps one of the single most important things that an ENFP needs to learn is NOT to use our particular gifts in that way.

Perhaps you bounce back easily from being hurt, but that doesn't mean that every ENFP that comes to this forum is like you and not so sensitive.

We aren't INFJs. You seem to think about everyone here through the INFJ lens. INTJ is not just a crankier version of INFJ. You similarly don't understand ENFPs or our ethical and moral needs. A young ENFP who acts the way that the OP acted needs a swift hard kick in the ass more than she needs reassurance and support, in hopes that she will learn from her mistakes and not continue to inflict them on other people.

What you clearly do not understand is that ENFPs can play with people like toys, and in an immature state, we do. The fact that we can do so, however, makes it that much more important that a moral code be reinforced that we should NOT do so. The OP needs to hear, preferably from other ENFPs, that her actions were repugnant.

Also, it seems rather unhealthy to place the entire blame of the situation on her when this supposed INTJ of hers, also acted like an ass. She already admitted her faults and explained why she thought he was hurt, she was trying to learn how to fix things

Some things aren't fixable. One of the most important things for an ENFP to learn is that we can't charm our way out of every problem, and that our actions have real and hurtful consequences. It is all too easy for us to charm people (I do it all day, every day). Without a corresponding (strong) moral code and an awareness of the fact that we can really hurt people, an ENFP can really wreak a lot of damage...far more than the average INFJ or INTJ will ever manage to inflict on society, because to be blunt, you don't have our social skills.

Further, the INTJ in question isn't here to be lectured, so attacking him would be pointless.

This whole INTJs are newborn puppies who are so much more vulnerable than everyone else and must be treated with extra care is ridiculous to me. I mean, that's how you're supposed to treat the people you love, regardless of their type.

Clearly, you don't get it, in spite of the fact that many of us have taken time to explain it. But, something tells me that we'll all get to hear that lack of comprehension several more times.

[ManWithNoName]

Also, it seems rather unhealthy to place the entire blame of the situation on her when this supposed INTJ of hers, also acted like an ass. She already admitted her faults and explained why she thought he was hurt, she was trying to learn how to fix things.


I agree with you, we are really only hearing half of the story. As the OP said the INTJ was the first to want to break up and I think has ownership over a fair amount of the communication problems or at least helped in making things worse.


This whole INTJs are newborn puppies who are so much more vulnerable than everyone else and must be treated with extra care is ridiculous to me. I mean, that's how you're supposed to treat the people you love, regardless of their type.

I don't think it's that we're all that much more vulnerable than everyone else. One of the things I don't think you understand is how prideful and strong willed we can be. If her INTJ has made up his mind he's made up his mind. Our pride in a way it's our greatest strength but like all great strengths is also our greatest weakness.

Pride is our cardinal sin and we can be incredibly petty, cold, and almost psychopathic because of it. Ever seen the film There Will Be Blood? Daniel Plainview is a perfect example of the dark aspect or Shadow (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.(psychology)) of the INTJ personality type or at the very least an INTJ with a strongly developed Ni-Te but poorly develped Fi. We tend to preserve our pride and will at all costs. Even if it means that we'll end up utterly miserable because of it. We rarely forgive, we never forget.

[ricearoni]

Catz, INFJs are the ones with the amazing people reading powers, remember? Not ENFPs.
:rolleyes:

Also, it comes across as you're reading way too much of your own personal past into the OPs behavior. He hurt her, so she hurt him, it's not much deeper than that.

Besides, what would you tell the OP if she was an INTJ also? What if the roles were reversed and the INTJ was the one who acted so unkind? Would you still use that harsh tone to an INTJ who hurt another INTJ?



Clearly, you don't get it. But, I'm sure you'll find a way to prove that to us several more times. You strike me as that type.

Actually I get what you're saying, I just don't think you give INTJs enough credit.

[Shoshana]

Pride is our cardinal sin and we can be incredibly petty, cold, and almost psychopathic because of it. Ever seen the film There Will Be Blood? Daniel Plainview is a perfect example of the dark aspect or Shadow (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.(psychology)) of the INTJ personality type or at the very least an INTJ with a strongly developed Ni-Te but poorly develped Fi. We tend to preserve our pride and will at all costs. Even if it means that we'll end up utterly miserable because of it. We rarely forgive, we never forget.oh crap....this is me, the pride thing. I think my INTJ friend is starting to glean onto that. What happens when you have two prideful people?

I told him the other day that his controlling ways is getting to be a pain in the ass. We both snarled like lions in that moment and then we both backed off. If he rejects me, I'll live. Already made my mind up about that and suspect he sees that. Wonder which one of us will implode first. har!

[catzmeow]

Catz, INFJs are the ones with the amazing people reading powers, remember? Not ENFPs.

Go read your MBTI. You're mistaken.

Also, it comes across as you're reading way too much of your own personal past into the OPs behavior. He hurt her, so she hurt him, it's not much deeper than that.

He hurt her in the first six months of the relationship, she hung in there with him, spent another year and a half getting him to open up and be vulnerable to her, and then crushed him like a bug. The harm is not equal. And, now she is now that as an excuse for knowingly harming him after getting him to emotionally invest in her. I call bullshit. Beyond that, now she's looking for a game to play to get him to open up to her again. Good luck with that one.

Besides, what would you tell the OP if she was an INTJ also? What if the roles were reversed and the INTJ was the one who acted so unkind? Would you still use that harsh tone to an INTJ who hurt another INTJ?

Can and have.

Actually I get what you're saying, I just don't think you give INTJs enough credit.

I guess I have just seen, at close hand, how much they struggle with stuff that is relatively easy for me as an ENFP. They are incredibly loving people, but F is not their natural domain, and they don't dwell in it very comfortably.

[ricearoni]

Manwithnoname, sorry, I've never seen it.

But still, if someone hurt your pride, but then later on came back humbled and asking for forgiveness, wouldn't you get over it eventually if they continued to prove themselves trustworthy?

[catzmeow]

Manwithnoname, sorry, I've never seen it.

But still, if someone hurt your pride, but then later on came back humbled and asking for forgiveness, wouldn't you get over it eventually if they continued to prove themselves trustworthy?

Rice: Having watched how hard my INTJ has struggled with love and getting to a point where he could be vulnerable with me, my inclination is to say that if I broke his heart, he would likely never try again. He would just simply go on, alone, without ever trying again to connect with someone, which is how he's spent the vast majority of his 43 years. In fact, he's gone so far as to tell me this: "If it doesn't work with you, I doubt I will ever get married, because if you and I can't make it work, I can't make it work with anyone."

In contrast, if he broke my heart, while I would be devastated for a long time, I would eventually get over it and try again, because a life without love is unthinkable to me.

I've kind of concluded, after dating him for 4 years and posting here for about 3.5, that the average INTJ probably only has the emotional fortitude for 4 or 5 serious tries at love (if that). There are quite a few INTJs here that have almost completely given up on finding a longterm romantic partner because they've been hurt so deeply by people in the past.

They do not have our resilience in that area of their lives, for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. INTJs love quite deeply, but only feel it for a very few people in their lives.

[joliet]

I have to sympathize with most of catzmeow's posts here. It's not at all an NF vs. NF thing, or woman vs woman thing (that I can tell.) There are certain things that catzmeow understands about how ENFPs and INTJs think. As an NF, if we value feelings so much we should most definitely value empathy for others unlike ourselves and try to understand them. She's pushing the OP outside of her own feelings to see the INTJ's, even though a little blunt.

To put it in Myers-Briggs terminology, xNFPs need to work on getting outside of their own feelings (Fi), to understand others. Then they can apply their awareness of their own feelings onto others as empathy to understand how others feel. I'm not entirely sure with xNFJs, so here's a theory: xNFJs, as (Fes) need to work on becoming more self-aware and understanding themselves to understand the need of growth in others. They're already good at analyzing the motives of others (ex. ricearoni being able to read into subconscious emotional connotations others have not admitted,) so understanding their own needs would allow them to understand the needs or lack of needs of others.

Basically, what I really agree with catzmeow about is the idea that as ENFPs, relationships and finding ways to influence others to feed our emotional desires is really easy. Once we stop being so selfish and stop obsessing over our feelings, that's when we begin to empathize with others truly. I think why catz is so frustrated is because she sees an immature ENFP who is being selfish. At least, that's what I see. And I know this, because I've been that immature and selfish person and can still fall back into those bad habits.

I tend to become exasperated because it's hard for me to empathize with an xNFP who is so caught up in their self-centered emotional needs that they refuse to empathize with someone they're hurting. But then I realize that they don't "refuse" to empathize--they're just not ready yet. I don't know if you're the same way, catz. I'm just learning to have sympathy for them as part of accepting that I've had those same bad habits.

The truth is that for an NF, relationships are definitely easier. I agree with catz. Relationships, love, emotions; all of that stuff should be territory we're versed in because we're naturally more tuned into it. NTs, especially INTxs, are not. It's tough. They have a lot to learn and open up about, and of course they're not idiots. They can see the patterns, they have an idea of what love is, they have the ability to express themselves and communicate--but the love we so easily feel for everyone as NFs is not something they are comfortable with. They put a lot of effort into making select relationships work.

But back to the OP, I don't know if the relationship can be salvaged. For the INTJ, if he's committed and all is well in the relationship, he's probably committed for life; no games. If you think you want a serious relationship with him again, and think you're 100% ready as you are to love completely without needing other people to serve you, then maybe you can express that to him. But if you hurt him, it'd be hard for him to forget that. When you broke up with him and immediately started dating someone else, you showed not only him but yourself that you weren't ready for commitment, and showed your INTJ especially that he was chopped liver. If that's changed, tell him.

[spect]

.. Relationships, love, emotions; all of that stuff should be territory we're versed in because we're naturally more tuned into it. NTs, especially INTxs, are not. It's tough. They have a lot to learn, and of course they're not idiots. They can see the patterns, they have an idea of what love is, they have the ability to express themselves and communicate--but the love we so easily feel as NF are not things they are comfortable with. They put a lot of work into making a relationship work.

why me more than intj's or intp's? or were you referring to both?

[joliet]

why me more than intj's or intp's? or were you referring to both?

I was talking about you specifically. ;) Kidding, I meant both.

[Imperator]

Someone can hurt me, but I love easily, I'm relatively unguarded, and I get over things comparatively faster than an INTJ. Beyond that, people love me easily. It isn't like that for an INTJ. It is so much harder for them to allow someone close to them. To persuade an INTJ to finally allow themselves to be vulnerable with you, to strip away those layers of self-protection and finally let you in, and then kick them when you get there, is so much worse than hurting someone like me. It makes me kind of sick to think about it, truthfully.

It's so much harder for them to get there than it is someone like me, and when they do, they are so much more vulnerable than an ENFP is, relatively speaking. I mean, I'm vulnerable, but I have coping mechanisms for this sort of thing, my INTJ does not. He hasn't allowed himself to love anyone before, aside from his family. The impact on him of what the OP did would be substantially worse than it would be on me. THAT is why some of us responded as we did.


Holy fuck, nailed it.
Absolutely nailed it. Exactly how I would take it.


Pride is our cardinal sin and we can be incredibly petty, cold, and almost psychopathic because of it. Ever seen the film There Will Be Blood? Daniel Plainview is a perfect example of the dark aspect or Shadow (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.(psychology)) of the INTJ personality type or at the very least an INTJ with a strongly developed Ni-Te but poorly develped Fi. We tend to preserve our pride and will at all costs. Even if it means that we'll end up utterly miserable because of it. We rarely forgive, we never forget.

Also a bullseye.


But still, if someone hurt your pride, but then later on came back humbled and asking for forgiveness, wouldn't you get over it eventually if they continued to prove themselves trustworthy?

I haven't been on speaking terms with one of my closest friends for the better part of 2 years, someone I've literally known my entire life, because of some things he did that were comparatively light to what we're talking about here.

As long as he thinks "she's trying to outsmart me", he's not giving up ground. Which is what he's going to think as long as she goes into this with a "how can I 'soften him up'" attitude.

Right now, transparency and time are the OP's best friends.
She's gotta be as vulnerable as he was when he got burned. Maybe then, when she's against the wall, absolutely on the verge of being crushed, her life in his hands, he'll let her back inside. Maybe. Probably not.

In my experience, that level of trust for an INTJ is pretty much a one shot deal, all or nothing. If it's gone, it's gone.

[Zsych]

In my experience, that level of trust for an INTJ is pretty much a one shot deal, all or nothing. If it's gone, it's gone.

I would add a 'unless he loves you deep down' - but there's no guarantee of that.

[Shoshana]

Sorry--I'm not into the special kids glove treatment for INTJs. The guy threatened her verbally with cheating--which to an NF is as good as the deed itself. The OP's overreaction was wrong but maybe her boyfriend should contemplate his effing navel and take a look at the sequence of events. His own behavior contributed. Not to say he was to blame 100%...but he pushed a panic button and sabotaged the relationship. Grow up and own it instead of blaming everyone else all the time. I HATE people who punish others for their own effed up behavior. That's narcissism, folks. Plain and simple.

And I'm sorry just because some here might practice smarmy behavior, it does'nt mean they can predict it in another of their type. That's called projection. No one can look into this OP's heart and really know what her motives are. Give me a bloody break.

[ManWithNoName]

Sorry--I'm not into the special kids glove treatment for INTJs. The guy threatened her verbally with cheating--which to an NF is as good as the deed itself. The OP's overreaction was wrong but maybe her boyfriend should contemplate his effing navel and take a look at the sequence of events. His own behavior contributed. Not to say he was to blame 100%...but he pushed a panic button and sabotaged the relationship. Grow up and own it instead of blaming everyone else all the time. I HATE people who punish others for their own effed up behavior. That's narcissism, folks. Plain and simple.


Shoshana, I really don't think anyone in this thread is saying that the INTJ is totally innocent, or at least I'm not. I don't think we really know enough about the situation to be able to tell if he was a narcissist or not but I agree with you that he likely also messed things up a lot.

Overall from what the OP has said it sounds like this relationship was rocky from the start and never really stable to begin with, as situation only further exacerbated by both their actions.

All the things about the nature of INTJs and love in this thread are true. I don't think people are trying to defend him in by making appeals to emotion by going on about the extent of his woundedness (although I can see how it seems like they are), I and I think others, are just trying to explain his wounded state.

His woundedness exists independently of his innocence. Is he likely to be wounded? Yes. Innocent? No. He is likely at as much fault for what went wrong by doing stuff like being the first one to want to break up etc. Basically half the people in this thread seem to be going about the question of: Should she try and get back with him? Hard to say. While the others are answer (in terms of trying to explain his wounded state): Will she be able too? I kind of doubt that one.

[Onlyme]

What is there to save? You were given the gift of his emotions (what you begged for), and then you threw them on the floor and stomped on them. You are not emotionally ready for a serious relationship. Grow up, and leave this poor guy alone. Haven't you hurt him enough?

Even now, you're less concerned about the fact that you crushed his heart like a bug than you are about looking for tricks and angles you can use to trick him into being vulnerable to you. I don't see you expressing any real remorse. You are behaving like a narcissist who broke her toy and now wants to figure out how to fix it so she can play with it again.

This guy is a human being and your behavior was cruel and despicable. You do not deserve a relationship with him.

This.

Brilliant reply.

One thing to add, however. He may still have feelings for you that are left over, even after the hurt, and he may be conflicted. Especially after that described turn of events. If you are really serious about this, there is a possibility of forgiveness and reestablishing a bond. But it would take time and work.

Ask yourself why you are interested? What are your motivations? Your intentions?

[PurpleGiraffe]

This is a prime example of when INTJs and ENFPs can be really bad for each other - when they are both young and a little immature. Each has skills that can really pack a punch on each other.

I can see a lot of different perspectives on this and I think the only thing that is clear is that if the OP wants to get back together with the INTJ then she will have to start by being honest: honest with herself about her current motivations and previous motivations and honest with this INTJ about the events of the past. Not addressing the giant painful, hurt elephant in the room will not solve anything.

And frankly, I can see both ricearoni's and catzmeow's points. I agree with rice that it doesn't do any good to necessarily completely coddle an INTJ and act like they are a victim, because emotions (while being hard to understand) are controllable, and it is everyone's individual responsibility to try to own them. Meanwhile, I can see catz's point. This ENFP was being exceedingly immature and cruel for acting the way she did. While I don't agree that she doesn't "deserve" him, I agree that she needs to REALLY take responsibility for her actions. Breaking up, completely disregarding someone's feelings, and rebounding to spite another is really hurtful, and if the OP wants this guy then she has to accept that and start really picking up the pieces instead of trying to trick the guy into opening up again (which wouldn't work anyway.)

She has to give him a reason to start trusting her again by being better than she was before and getting to work on cleaning up the wreckage. Yes, I think the INTJ still has feelings (or else he wouldn't still talk to her), but it's going to take quite awhile to get that turtle out of the shell again, and he might never come go walking about as he did before...that would be up to him.

Just my thoughts...

[momorawr]

I have an ENFP. We're going through similar trust issues and other problems as well. I'm doing some of the things that are driving you crazy: lack of time, physical touch, communication etc, I do kind of feel like it's a break from the relationship even though we're still together. Right now I'm having trouble trying to figure out if I'm capable of being in this relationship again, putting my heart out to him again.
After a period of reclusive I'm starting to be more engaged again. This has come to be from talking and him working on himself a lot. I've been trying to talk more, but I don't want to talk about the relationship all the time. If we can't have fun together, there is no point in being together in the first place.
My suggestion that we've been doing is have a time once a week where you spend at least one hour talking honestly about serious issues in the relationship. He let his anger out and I needed to let my sadness and frustration out. Speaking about the relationship is a necessity.
Maybe he's not ready yet. Give him space.
Let him make the next move in discussing the relationship.
Do things around the house to make his life easier or something. (My boyfriend did this and it gave me more time to myself and to think about stuff.)
Spend more time doing things you enjoy and writing in a journal, maybe even let him read it.
I really like having the cards on the table after my trust has been broken. Then I will feel more comfortable being open and in depth about my thoughts and feelings.

Just some ideas.

---------- Post added 10-05-2011 at 12:02 PM ----------

It doesn't matter who's right or wrong. She wants to know how to salvage. Breaking up would be too damn easy. XD Silly ENFPs.

[Cooper]

Rice: Having watched how hard my INTJ has struggled with love and getting to a point where he could be vulnerable with me, my inclination is to say that if I broke his heart, he would likely never try again. He would just simply go on, alone, without ever trying again to connect with someone, which is how he's spent the vast majority of his 43 years. In fact, he's gone so far as to tell me this: "If it doesn't work with you, I doubt I will ever get married, because if you and I can't make it work, I can't make it work with anyone."

In contrast, if he broke my heart, while I would be devastated for a long time, I would eventually get over it and try again, because a life without love is unthinkable to me.

I've kind of concluded, after dating him for 4 years and posting here for about 3.5, that the average INTJ probably only has the emotional fortitude for 4 or 5 serious tries at love (if that). There are quite a few INTJs here that have almost completely given up on finding a longterm romantic partner because they've been hurt so deeply by people in the past.

They do not have our resilience in that area of their lives, for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. INTJs love quite deeply, but only feel it for a very few people in their lives.


I have read this post many times....it says it all about an INTJ and love. We don't do it often, I think that 4 or 5 tries at it may be too high. I would say closer to 2 or 3 tries. Being vulnerable is the last thing I want to feel. To open my heart and let someone in is a huge leap of trust for me, as I would think it is for any INTJ, more then any other type. If the heart of an INTJ is broken, whether we started that happening by our own action or words (or lack of in some cases), or if we are the 'innocent victims', the walls go up again. An INTJ does behave differently then an "F" type, especially an ENFP. I am not saying an ENFP cannot be hurt, because you can be, but when you are, you bounce back. INTJs don't. We tried, we failed, we're done. It takes too much out of us. We shut down. What is the reason for that? I have no clue...it just is. I think when it comes to love, INTJs while trying to learn from their past mistakes and pain, make them all over again. Sometimes the same ones, sometimes exactly the opposite. In other words....we don't know what we are doing. It doesn't come natural to us. You would think it does, but it doesn't.

[idoj]

I have read this post many times....it says it all about an INTJ and love. We don't do it often, I think that 4 or 5 tries at it may be too high. I would say closer to 2 or 3 tries. Being vulnerable is the last thing I want to feel. To open my heart and let someone in is a huge leap of trust for me, as I would think it is for any INTJ, more then any other type. If the heart of an INTJ is broken, whether we started that happening by our own action or words (or lack of in some cases), or if we are the 'innocent victims', the walls go up again. An INTJ does behave differently then an "F" type, especially an ENFP. I am not saying an ENFP cannot be hurt, because you can be, but when you are, you bounce back. INTJs don't. We tried, we failed, we're done. It takes too much out of us. We shut down. What is the reason for that? I have no clue...it just is. I think when it comes to love, INTJs while trying to learn from their past mistakes and pain, make them all over again. Sometimes the same ones, sometimes exactly the opposite. In other words....we don't know what we are doing. It doesn't come natural to us. You would think it does, but it doesn't.


I concur. The whole damn thing makes me uncomfortable. I let go completely once and was scorched. I find it physically painful to let anyone in completely, again. I can tell people facts about myself, sure; but opening up and being totally vulnerable and caring about whether that other person's affections toward me are maintained, having my mental well being, or happiness centered around someone else's approval or whims... Never, ever, ever, again... Not that I am dispassionate by any means, but to give over to another to the extent that you love another as completely, if not even a bit more so, than the self... I don't think it's physically or mentally possible for me to achieve twice. It just goes against, all reason.

[DrCiao]

I'm not certain these are specifically INTJ or ENFP traits- the ability to be resilient and be open in relationships.

I have an INTJ friend who came up with an equation on why there are only 3 possible mates for him in the entire world, and we all joked and laughed about it. He's been divorced and married twice now and seemed to have bounced back just fine. I also know many INTJ women and they just seem to go from relationship to relationship without ever turning back. I think typically pessimists believe the worst in people, and those are the ones who are stingy with their hearts and minds, because they already assume the worst. Truth is, no one can really know how much time people can have together, and to assume that you'll be with one person for the rest of your life seems unrealistic.

As a disclaimer, I've also been divorced twice now, but each time I believed in the woman I was marrying. However after the last messy divorce, I am not keen on easily entering another situation where I might be potentially taken advantage of- that does not mean that I am not open to being vulnerable with my heart. It's just that for some people they fall in and out of love so easily, but I think staying in love with someone is much harder. After all, how many marriages have failed after 2 years? In the State of California, nearly 50%. That is an astounding number of people.

No wonder some people are carefully guarded with their hearts. Has nothing to do with personality type.

[AnaK]

I have read this post many times....it says it all about an INTJ and love. We don't do it often, I think that 4 or 5 tries at it may be too high. I would say closer to 2 or 3 tries. Being vulnerable is the last thing I want to feel. To open my heart and let someone in is a huge leap of trust for me, as I would think it is for any INTJ, more then any other type. If the heart of an INTJ is broken, whether we started that happening by our own action or words (or lack of in some cases), or if we are the 'innocent victims', the walls go up again. An INTJ does behave differently then an "F" type, especially an ENFP. I am not saying an ENFP cannot be hurt, because you can be, but when you are, you bounce back. INTJs don't. We tried, we failed, we're done. It takes too much out of us. We shut down. What is the reason for that? I have no clue...it just is. I think when it comes to love, INTJs while trying to learn from their past mistakes and pain, make them all over again. Sometimes the same ones, sometimes exactly the opposite. In other words....we don't know what we are doing. It doesn't come natural to us. You would think it does, but it doesn't.

You could be describing me, and I assure you I am not an INTJ. Someone on here said there is something called avoidant personality disorder, maybe that's what people are referring to. The difference is, when I am hurt, I might still be laughing and joking around with people, so people may not realize the extent of the damage. I have been putting up more and more barriers, more and more fortifications, especially after the last time.

INTJs are not the only ones with pride. I hate it when I feel like someone is trying to make a fool of me, or hurt me for sport. After that happens once, I'm more careful to watch for it the next time around. And it makes it harder to trust people.

It's like that Stevie Nicks Song:

There's people running around loose in the world
ain't got nothing better to do
than make a meal of some bright eyed kid

---------- Post added 10-06-2011 at 06:32 AM ----------

how many marriages have failed after 2 years? In the State of California, nearly 50%. That is an astounding number of people.
50% of marriages last two years or less?


No wonder some people are carefully guarded with their hearts. Has nothing to do with personality type.

I agree. When people say someone is afraid of commitment, I also reply that they should be.

[Shoshana]

As long as he thinks "she's trying to outsmart me", he's not giving up ground. Which is what he's going to think as long as she goes into this with a "how can I 'soften him up'" attitude.

Right now, transparency and time are the OP's best friends.
She's gotta be as vulnerable as ly on the verge of being crushed, her life in his hands.

I'm starting to sense that many INTJs start off with this premise before a love interest has even done them any wrong. Unfortunately it creates trust issues for the other person too (as seen in this situation) because REALITY--no one has walked through this life without getting hurt. So I'd say this dude is doomed until he wakes up...whereas the ENFP, in a numbers game, will likely find someone more emotionally open.

The remark about seeing things through the prism of "outsmarting" was useful to me though. It helps to learn how someone else thinks.

[Onlyme]

Rice: Having watched how hard my INTJ has struggled with love and getting to a point where he could be vulnerable with me, my inclination is to say that if I broke his heart, he would likely never try again. He would just simply go on, alone, without ever trying again to connect with someone, which is how he's spent the vast majority of his 43 years. In fact, he's gone so far as to tell me this: "If it doesn't work with you, I doubt I will ever get married, because if you and I can't make it work, I can't make it work with anyone."

In contrast, if he broke my heart, while I would be devastated for a long time, I would eventually get over it and try again, because a life without love is unthinkable to me.

I've kind of concluded, after dating him for 4 years and posting here for about 3.5, that the average INTJ probably only has the emotional fortitude for 4 or 5 serious tries at love (if that). There are quite a few INTJs here that have almost completely given up on finding a longterm romantic partner because they've been hurt so deeply by people in the past.

This is an amazingly insightful post.

Catz has described me. And the funny thing is that, while an unformed piece of this theory has been floating through my mind for many years (without solidifying), actually seeing it laid out here has me realizing that this is -- very likely -- a trait peculiar to INTJs. I have often thought about how difficult breakups have been after those few times that I have finally opened up -- often taking years for me to get over.

I don't know of anyone else that takes things quite the same way. Perhaps because we are so slow to trust, and so slow to give away the store, so to speak, we have trouble understanding how, once arriving at that place of assumed trust, the other person can can seemingly out of nowhere change their mind. Once I get to that place, the few times I have, in my mind it is always "forever."

I think we also have trouble comprehending how a lot of people can do this almost routinely (not to minimize their pain) -- hop from one relationship to another, and we (or at least me) are often shocked by their resilience. And jealous of their ability to attract and find mates, seemingly without effort. Most of my ex-girlfriends have never spent much, if any, time alone. Whereas, myself -- I've spent the bulk of my life alone.

And after this last breakup, I may in fact be at that place Catz mentioned of giving up and resigning myself to being alone. I, too, said to my last partner, that I thought this was likely to be the last love of my life. But she will go on, I'm sure.

This may be why so many have reacted so strongly to this thread.

[DrCiao]

And after this last breakup, I may in fact be at that place Catz mentioned of giving up and resigning myself to being alone. I, too, said to my last partner, that I thought this was likely to be the last love of my life. But she will go on, I'm sure.

This may be why so many have reacted so strongly to this thread.

Very insightful. If it's not too personal, do you mind sharing why you said this to your last partner? What was she like and what made you think she would be the last love of your life?

[Onlyme]

Very insightful. If it's not too personal, do you mind sharing why you said this to your last partner? What was she like and what made you think she would be the last love of your life?


She was like me (perhaps, too much -- a mirror? Possibly).

She was an INTJ, smart, funny, attractive, etc., all the normal stuff ...

We were very compatible in our humor, our lifestyles, our kinks, our sex drives, our views of the world, what we wanted in a partner. We seemed to connect on every level, physical, emotional, intellectual, and such. We liked the same music. The same literature. And, theoretically, were at the right time of our lives to enjoy one another. And so on. Maybe this was an illusion. I don't know.

The reason for the "last love" thing is complex and personal. But suffice to say, for a handful of reasons I wasn't looking -- thought I was done with all that -- but I got found. I was surprised and delighted at each step as things unfolded. I was as happy and content as I could have been with a woman. I opened up more than in fifteen years, maybe ever.

I thought, and said, that if this one doesn't work out ... well, that's it.


So if you see her say hello (She might be in Tangier...)

[RippyV]

You asked why people responded so strongly to the OP. Your post here is exactly why. INTJs are profoundly tender people. But, they are self-protective because they find their emotions baffling and a little scary, because they have often suffered a great deal from being misunderstood and forced to conform to social norms that are painful and uncomfortable to them, and as a result, they're extremely careful. Everything in our society suggests that being an INTJ is the wrong thing to be. They are judged for being not expressive enough, too introverted, too unemotional, too guarded.

Someone can hurt me, but I love easily, I'm relatively unguarded, and I get over things comparatively faster than an INTJ. Beyond that, people love me easily. It isn't like that for an INTJ. It is so much harder for them to allow someone close to them. To persuade an INTJ to finally allow themselves to be vulnerable with you, to strip away those layers of self-protection and finally let you in, and then kick them when you get there, is so much worse than hurting someone like me. It makes me kind of sick to think about it, truthfully.

It's so much harder for them to get there than it is someone like me, and when they do, they are so much more vulnerable than an ENFP is, relatively speaking. I mean, I'm vulnerable, but I have coping mechanisms for this sort of thing, my INTJ does not. He hasn't allowed himself to love anyone before, aside from his family. The impact on him of what the OP did would be substantially worse than it would be on me. THAT is why some of us responded as we did.

I feel incredibly protective of my INTJ (which would probably make him laugh), because I realize how vulnerable he really is, emotionally speaking. To violate that is anathema to me.

You did nail it. I have dated several ENFPs and each one invested much more emotionally in the relationship than I did. When it ended each one also moved on emotionally much faster. Hard on the outside, soft on the inside.

[Cooper]

ENFPs bounce. I am watching one do it right now. I do not understand it....it baffles me, confuses me, and makes me wonder if the two of them were ever on the same page.

[catzmeow]

ENFPs bounce. I am watching one do it right now. I do not understand it....it baffles me, confuses me, and makes me wonder if the two of them were ever on the same page.

We do. We can come through a considerable amount of abuse and emotional trauma, and yet, be resilient in making emotional connections with people.

[Thinktress]

He may have been disgusted with the ENFP's tenancy to want to make everyone feel special, causing him to feel like he was tossed in the big warm load with everyone else when he should have had some individuality to you aside from all your other friends.

Right? No offense to ENFP's but that's what happened to me when I tried to go out with one. And it's my own crap really I'm sure. But I don't want to spend my entire dates with my bf talking to everyone else in the world or if we're alone, overfocusing on me so much that it's freakin uncomfortable and rapid firing questions at me. SCARY.

[ricearoni]

I have an INTJ friend who came up with an equation on why there are only 3 possible mates for him in the entire world, and we all joked and laughed about it. He's been divorced and married twice now and seemed to have bounced back just fine. I also know many INTJ women and they just seem to go from relationship to relationship without ever turning back. I think typically pessimists believe the worst in people, and those are the ones who are stingy with their hearts and minds, because they already assume the worst. Truth is, no one can really know how much time people can have together, and to assume that you'll be with one person for the rest of your life seems unrealistic.

This is the same with the INTJs I know, they seem resilient to me. I suspect that this is because they were raised by rather social and outgoing people or learned how to get along with people, so they don't have this misfit/outsider thing going on. They have a lot of close and not so close friends, so it seems that if they were to get their heart broken, it would be easy enough for them to find distraction or a reason to move on. Maybe because they have an easier time screening and connecting with people, finding love doesn't seem like something that is impossible for them.

[DrCiao]

This is the same with the INTJs I know, they seem resilient to me. I suspect that this is because they were raised by rather social and outgoing people or learned how to get along with people, so they don't have this misfit/outsider thing going on. They have a lot of close and not so close friends, so it seems that if they were to get their heart broken, it would be easy enough for them to find distraction or a reason to move on. Maybe because they have an easier time screening and connecting with people, finding love doesn't seem like something that is impossible for them.

From my experience, INTJs love with their minds first, not their sex. They clearly understand the difference between lust/infatuation and love, and they do not give their love easily, and it takes them a long time to fall in love. So they don't throw around the words, love, around, unless they mean it.

I think it's easier for INTJs and TJs in general to quickly move on from relationships without lingering on past relationships because their processes are thus:

1. She never really cared about me for the following reasons: 1-20 so fuck her!
2. She never did 1-20 for me, so fuck her!

And if all else fails remember the following instances of betrayal or broken trust:

1. She cheated on me/tried to cheat on me with my friend(s) etc
2. She has horrible social manners and humiliated me/tried to humiliate in front of my friends/colleagues etc
3. She is a liar and all she cares about is money and would run off with another guy if he took care of her etc

For STJs/ NTJs, loyalty and trust are important, and once that's broken, they won't linger with thoughts of reconciliation, they will be glad to be rid of you.

[WeAreAllKosh]

You asked why people responded so strongly to the OP. Your post here is exactly why. INTJs are profoundly tender people. But, they are self-protective because they find their emotions baffling and a little scary, because they have often suffered a great deal from being misunderstood and forced to conform to social norms that are painful and uncomfortable to them, and as a result, they're extremely careful. Everything in our society suggests that being an INTJ is the wrong thing to be. They are judged for being not expressive enough, too introverted, too unemotional, too guarded.

Someone can hurt me, but I love easily, I'm relatively unguarded, and I get over things comparatively faster than an INTJ. Beyond that, people love me easily. It isn't like that for an INTJ. It is so much harder for them to allow someone close to them. To persuade an INTJ to finally allow themselves to be vulnerable with you, to strip away those layers of self-protection and finally let you in, and then kick them when you get there, is so much worse than hurting someone like me. It makes me kind of sick to think about it, truthfully.

It's so much harder for them to get there than it is someone like me, and when they do, they are so much more vulnerable than an ENFP is, relatively speaking. I mean, I'm vulnerable, but I have coping mechanisms for this sort of thing, my INTJ does not. He hasn't allowed himself to love anyone before, aside from his family. The impact on him of what the OP did would be substantially worse than it would be on me. THAT is why some of us responded as we did.

I feel incredibly protective of my INTJ (which would probably make him laugh), because I realize how vulnerable he really is, emotionally speaking. To violate that is anathema to me.
I have read this post many times....it says it all about an INTJ and love. We don't do it often, I think that 4 or 5 tries at it may be too high. I would say closer to 2 or 3 tries. Being vulnerable is the last thing I want to feel. To open my heart and let someone in is a huge leap of trust for me, as I would think it is for any INTJ, more then any other type. If the heart of an INTJ is broken, whether we started that happening by our own action or words (or lack of in some cases), or if we are the 'innocent victims', the walls go up again. An INTJ does behave differently then an "F" type, especially an ENFP. I am not saying an ENFP cannot be hurt, because you can be, but when you are, you bounce back. INTJs don't. We tried, we failed, we're done. It takes too much out of us. We shut down. What is the reason for that? I have no clue...it just is. I think when it comes to love, INTJs while trying to learn from their past mistakes and pain, make them all over again. Sometimes the same ones, sometimes exactly the opposite. In other words....we don't know what we are doing. It doesn't come natural to us. You would think it does, but it doesn't.

Catz's insight resonated with me, too. My serious relationship "tries" number is very small. I am glad I made those attempts because falling in love and being loved in return is something everyone should experience.

In the end, though, all of my relationships failed and each failure weighed heavily on me. I was not wired to bounce back quickly. I needed huge chunks of time for the memories and feelings from the failed relationship to fade before I felt ready to try again. My lengthy solo periods prevented me, unfortunately, from gaining valuable relationship experience compared to others in my age range.

It's close to a couple years since my most recent relationship ended. I don't see myself ever again attempting to find a partner. I'm not waiting for memories and feelings to fade this time. I've come to terms with the reality that making and sustaining a connection will always be a struggle for me, given my introverted, logical personality and relative lack of non-platonic experience. Due to this realization and the fact that I'm not a youngster any more, there is no fuel ("emotional fortitude" as Catz termed it) left in my tank with which to bounce back.

[ricearoni]

For STJs/ NTJs, loyalty and trust are important, and once that's broken, they won't linger with thoughts of reconciliation, they will be glad to be rid of you.

This seems to be true when the INTJ is the one who ends the relationship. But seems to go either way when the INTJ is the one who is dumped.

It's close to a couple years since my most recent relationship ended. I don't see myself ever again attempting to find a partner. I'm not waiting for memories and feelings to fade this time. I've come to terms with the reality that making and sustaining a connection will always be a struggle for me, given my introverted, logical personality and relative lack of non-platonic experience. Due to this realization and the fact that I'm not a youngster any more, there is no fuel ("emotional fortitude" as Catz termed it) left in my tank with which to bounce back.

This makes me sad. I don't think "emotional fortitude" is like fuel, I think it's like a muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it becomes.

[WeAreAllKosh]

This makes me sad. I don't think "emotional fortitude" is like fuel, I think it's like a muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it becomes.

Unlike the OP who crushed her INTJ, I am the one who ended each of my LTRs due to basic incompatibility. Avoiding vulnerable situations isn't the reason I am choosing to remain solo. I've simply concluded that the likelihood of me finding a Special Someone and me possessing the soft skills necessary to sustain a LTR is so remote that it's not worth any further effort. Sad, yes; bitter, not so much. The infrequent pity parade for myself fizzles out quickly because the Fates have been kind to me in many other ways.