Female INTJs' Difficulty Finding the Right Relationship

[PreyingMantis]

I want to compare information with other INTJ women and see if this is a general trend, or just me.

I find it incredibly difficult to find a man I am both physically attracted to (that's way hard enough) let alone someone I really feel comfortable with - enough to really attach myself to. As a result, I tend to have "f***-buddies" or else nice guys I string along for a while until I just can't any longer (and I don't want to hurt them - it's just how I am). This has been happening since time immemorial. I'm sick of it. I just want to get settled with someone so I don't have to go through the separation,the wasted energy, and the steps of getting to know someone new again and again and again ...

Most men - the ones I'm not at all "interested" in (except as anthropological/sociological/psychological/comical study specimens) - either hate me or are turned off by my ... well, I guess my INTJ-ness (translate: their hang-ups about heterosexuality and themselves). But it's not their opinion of me that's the issue. I don't like "bad guys", although admittedly a push-over is not a turn-on, but like guys that are truly cooperative, non-judgemental, real rather than acting out a role, ... . I am certain that my tastes are healthy. It's not that I don't like guys - I find them easy to get on with, and have lots of them as friends.

It's not that I'm an intolerant critical person. I just can't feel attracted to them, and with the ones I'm not friends with, I often see through some (thousands of) myopic hang-ups they've picked up from around them. I find that most straight men don't usually develop to find their true self, are not forced by their surroundings to interact in an truly egalitarian cooperative way with others in the way that women are, and I end up shocking myself time and time again (actually, probably not that often) by discovering that the man I'm ... incredibly ... able to be attracted to is ... wait for it ... gay. AGAIN. ERRGGGGHHH!!!

Maybe I never talk to the really vibrant, articulate, outgoing ones, but I tend to prefer guys that are not extremely confident, and are a little quieter.

What's going on? Are there really that few males that can relate to others in a fully healthy, individualized way without resorting to that masculinized script that they should grow out of ... or be grown out of ... while they're in uni? (But they're not all like that). I am not attracted to women. Anyone (female INTJs or those who've observed us) with similar experiences?

[Santana28]

well, you and me both i suppose.

i have the same issues - it is much easier to have a string of physical relationships than find the *right* person. however, i've always thought i could fix anything - so i've ended up in relationships with bisexual men (more open-minded right? good start) and taken them way wayyyyy too far. I've spent way too much effort trying to fix other people and relationships which never had any prospect of working in the first place.

I don't care about looks, age, etc at all. Not one bit. I've dated 10s and i've turned around and dated short ugly balding guys. LOL. looks don't matter at all - but there *has* to be an intellectual connection, or there is ZERO attraction. i'm sure this is much more of an issue for the INTJ males trying desperately to find an intelligent AND attractive mate out there...

anyways, i say just do your own thing - and don't bind yourself to your mistakes. if something isn't right for you - just move on and forget about it. somewhere out there is a guy with good looks AND intelligence... and perhaps even an INTJ to boot ;)

[jikin]

Partially. I tend to be very selective. I refuse to give any man a second look if he doesn't already meet my requirements (and there aren't that many), something which I will be judging from the first moment he tries to make contact. This plus the fact that...well...I'm an INTJ means that maintaining a real relationship, or even a semi-relationship rarely happens for me. I just don't believe in keeping guys around for any reason if they aren't what I want. (Well, other than complete plutonic friendship)

Occaisionally I find it annoying, but when I see my friends who are constantly getting into relationships with people, just so they have someone to be with, I'm thankful that I've taken this path. It seems to be a hassle to be constantly wasting energy on getting into and maintaining and breaking relationships, romantic or otherwise, that you know from the start just won't work out.

I definately agree that intelligence is much more important than looks or age.

[redbaren]

I definately agree that intelligence is much more important than looks or age.
I wish there was some way for women to see men in this light.

[Dominguez]

well, you and me both i suppose.

i have the same issues - it is much easier to have a string of physical relationships than find the *right* person. however, i've always thought i could fix anything - so i've ended up in relationships with bisexual men (more open-minded right? good start) and taken them way wayyyyy too far. I've spent way too much effort trying to fix other people and relationships which never had any prospect of working in the first place.

I don't care about looks, age, etc at all. Not one bit. I've dated 10s and i've turned around and dated short ugly balding guys. LOL. looks don't matter at all - but there *has* to be an intellectual connection, or there is ZERO attraction. i'm sure this is much more of an issue for the INTJ males trying desperately to find an intelligent AND attractive mate out there...

anyways, i say just do your own thing - and don't bind yourself to your mistakes. if something isn't right for you - just move on and forget about it. somewhere out there is a guy with good looks AND intelligence... and perhaps even an INTJ to boot ;)
what i underlined is an understatement. its frustrating as hell and disenchating. so far even when i think theres initial legitimate potential in establishing an intimate relationship with the person, things don't shape out the way i think they should, usually because the feelings aren't mutual. usually i'll be thinking about the situation so much that i've overexamined what is at hand while the other person is thinking something completely different. I guess that happens mostly because we think differently. its just frustrating. Just recently i became reacquainted with a girl i knew from school. when we're together, i feel she's attracted to me physically and mentally and i feel the same way about her, although neither one of us has revealed this to eachother. i feel she's attracted to my intelligence and who i am, but yet she goes out with one of my friends who i'm assuming is an esfj. thats not to say he's a bad guy, i just didn't think she would be attracted to his traits. I just don't know what the hell to do anymore. If I make myself clear on how i feel about things, it doesn't help. I guess i'm just gonna have to be extremely patient in looking for a mate with similar values and morals and interests and everything i'd look for in a mate. so far, though, i haven't had any successes. i can keep on blabbing but i choose not to. in the end, being an intj guy searching for a mate royally sucks.

[Nanashi]

it's like I started this thread! I think the only guy I ever loved is an ENFP, who labeled himself bisexual before we met. Interestingly, after we made our mutual feelings known and then discussed our not being able to be in a relationship because of significantly differing spiritual beliefs, he now identifies as only hetero. I have always found extroverted, feeling, open men attractive, and it makes sense, now that I know I am an INTJ. I was told by our mutual friend that in this case, the ENFP's being attracted to me, a female with 'stereotypically masculine' behaviors, psychological stances, interests, and communicative styles may have made him rethink his ostensible orientation. Perhaps the friend was right, and the ENFP realized he could find a woman with the qualities he's attracted to.

This opposite scenario happened in high school my freshman year. My classmate "Patrick" and I were very attracted to each other. We spent a lot of time sharing our stories with each other in class and during breaks. I gushed about him to my family. I catalogued his idiosyncrasies in my brain and spewed them out to my mother after school. A new kid "Fred" was placed in our class later in the semester, and he began making sheep's eyes at me. Patrick kept commenting on it to me in a sing-song voice with his eyes turned down. He stopped talking to me and seemed quiet and upset at Fred. The strange thing was that I didn't at all return Fred's attention.He was very immature & (and I don't mean this in an insulting way but) I couldn't dream of having an interesting conversation with him. When Patrick met me after classes to assist me with sculpting (because he mentioned he was good at it after I said I had an extra assignment dropped onto my plate), it felt like a pseudodate. He was shy but suave as we walked in the empty classroom. Just as we entered, he got a call from his long abusive father on the phone and left in a whirlwind of emotion, saying he had to bail him out of jail. I think he was embarrassed? I still carried a torch for him, but he chatted animatedly with a female friend on his other side in class & occasionally mentioned Fred drooling at me with a slightly hurt undertone. We saw each other less and less. I know he struggled with the idea of people thinking he might be gay. Near the end of high school, he came out.

There is a running joke with my sister that I have to ask her about the sexual persuasion of guys I think are cute b/c they are mostly gay. While men who identify as interested in men don't make up the entire pool of guys I'm attracted to, they claim a sizable portion of it.I'm leaning towards a theory that, in some cases, ENFPs and ESFPs, are told from the time they are young that what they act like/are interested in is feminine, and that, being as interested in freedom and being true to themselves as they are, that they are much more open to exploring the possibility that they may, as everyone tells them, be of a homosexual persuasion.





Nanashi added to this post, 7 minutes and 35 seconds later...

It's harder for men to find women that are intelligent & hot. Why? Does that comment reek of sexism to anyone else? Tons of just moderately attractive women paint themselves in our culture. If we say it's harder for INTJ men, aren't we saying women don't put as much effort into their education/mental development as do men? Am I missing some other meaning? If so, I'm sorry. Sometimes I don't see what other people do.

[spittingvenom]

Finding good, healthy relationships with mutual attraction feels like an impossibility to me.

I have experienced every cliche in single girl hell. My first true love died in a car accident (when we were 20). I pined for a man who was not single for many years and have fallen for other unavailable men. There have been men that want to be with me that I'm not attracted to or not stimulated by (one of which I dated for several years). bad timing, weird twists of fate....you name it. Oh...but generally only the lesbians want to be with me, not the gays.

I know being an INTJ woman plays into some of this. At the basic level, for me, it is so hard to find any people that I connect with, let alone romantically. Add in the needing to be physically attracted to each other and I lose...it seems, every time.

I often feel like I'm the woman that people love to know, love to be friends with, but not the one men want to be in relationships with....ugh.

I am not bitter about any of this, I am just finding it is the reality of my life. I think that pining for something that may never come or letting being in a relationship determine my happiness are detrimental to my well being. My solution, thus far, is to continue to work on myself (internally and externally), keep enjoying my life and the good things that I already have, and really accept myself and love myself. If I can do those things, the rest will just be icing.

[pseudonymous]

I read each post in this thread with amazement that there is so much more out there which INTJ-females have experienced. I kinda like the idea of “living” precariously thru all your writings. Maybe I’m an atypical INTJ-female but I honestly can say I have no desire to be in any relationships at all. I love being single and being self-contained. Maybe it’s because my people-contact quota has reached its threshold from working all week. I love my job but that’s about as much people-contact I ever want, thank you. I rather spend whatever time I have left after getting home by myself and the thought of being in a relationship is the furthest thing in my mind.

I know this may sounds sad and pathetic to anyone else. I can’t really explain it… I’m just happy being me, being alone and… no fuss, no mess, no entanglements… hehe

sad, eh?

[jikin]

I read each post in this thread with amazement that there is so much more out there which INTJ-females have experienced. I kinda like the idea of “living” precariously thru all your writings. Maybe I’m an atypical INTJ-female but I honestly can say I have no desire to be in any relationships at all. I love being single and being self-contained. Maybe it’s because my people-contact quota has reached its threshold from working all week. I love my job but that’s about as much people-contact I ever want, thank you. I rather spend whatever time I have left after getting home by myself and the thought of being in a relationship is the furthest thing in my mind.

I know this may sounds sad and pathetic to anyone else. I can’t really explain it… I’m just happy being me, being alone and… no fuss, no mess, no entanglements… hehe

sad, eh?

That's not sad at all. It seems life would be a lot easier if I had no desire to be in a relationship. As long as you're happy that way then keep on embracing it.

[Icristhus]

I read each post in this thread with amazement that there is so much more out there which INTJ-females have experienced. I kinda like the idea of “living” precariously thru all your writings. Maybe I’m an atypical INTJ-female but I honestly can say I have no desire to be in any relationships at all. I love being single and being self-contained. Maybe it’s because my people-contact quota has reached its threshold from working all week. I love my job but that’s about as much people-contact I ever want, thank you. I rather spend whatever time I have left after getting home by myself and the thought of being in a relationship is the furthest thing in my mind.

I know this may sounds sad and pathetic to anyone else. I can’t really explain it… I’m just happy being me, being alone and… no fuss, no mess, no entanglements… hehe

sad, eh?

Not really sad, I wouldn't think. I've spent many years of my life with the same mindset (though I'm male, thank you!). I always wondered if I should be lonely for it, but I ultimately wasn't. Eventually, I made a single great friend and abruptly realized that I did rather want someone to relate to... But only on occasion.

I doubt I could really deal with sharing my entire life with someone in the sense of living with them and being 'physical' with them and generally having a long-term romantic relationship.

Short-term company can be alright at times, but for the most part I'm as you've described -- just generally happy to be me and leave it at that.

So eh, others might find it sad, but I don't. Kinda hard to, considering I'd have to find myself to be sad too. ;)

And in response to all the others here.. I can empathize. There's been other points in my life where I -did- want a relationship (and there might very well be times later in my life when the urge returns) and I struggled with how hard it was to find anyone that seemed compatible.

...I probably sound a lot more confused than I am, when it comes to relationships, don't I?

To summarize, I don't need or want one right now, and don't know if the urge will return to me at some later time. Most likely it won't, unless I happen to fall for someone incredibly hard. Or so I'd imagine. It's enough to just be me and focus on what I'm doing for myself, with myself, and the very few friends I happen to socialize with on occasion.

[Seppuku Savant]

At the basic level, for me, it is so hard to find any people that I connect with, let alone romantically.

You've hit the nail on the head. I think INTJs are akin to space aliens in the eyes of others. People are always misunderstanding the way I perceive the world and process emotions. I'm not demonstrative about it, which has lead some people I've dated to call me a robot. Strange. Anyone I've ever dated has called me an enigma, or on a level they couldn't penetrate. I have no idea what true intimacy feels like.

The fact that I'm psychologically androgynous adds to the problem as well. I often like to pay for dates and give flowers to guys. They find this strange. >.>

Luckily, romantic relationships aren't a necessity for me. I'm currently in the building phase of my life. At 24, my autonomy and emotional freedom is priceless. I may want something more in my 30's, but I'm not looking.

[PreyingMantis]

Wow, this is really awesome to hear - other people with similar experiences ... whoooooooah, freaky dude.

I guess that was some of my "E" coming out.

Yeah, INTJs are unique and like aliens and self-contained and we are the COOLEST because of it. Everyone else is missing out!

Okay, enough pep talk. There might've even been some "F" in that ... errrgggh. Time to shut up.

[Icristhus]

The fact that I'm psychologically androgynous adds to the problem as well. I often like to pay for dates and give flowers to guys. They find this strange. >.>

I've never really understood why that would bother other guys... Personally (being a guy), I think it'd be awesome and funny and just plain interesting if a female gave me flowers, or something similar.

'Course, I tend to like unusual things that go against the norm like that. Either way, good for you. I'd say keep it up and you might eventually stumble across someone that'd genuinely appreciate it, instead of being scared off by it. I can't possibly be the only male in existence that'd think it a good thing.

[duende]

I've stumbled across this site while trying to understand the latest Titanic in my life and it's reassuring (or depressing?) to know this is not something I'm experiencing alone. I'm an INTJ female, 40 y.o. (gasp), and I've never been in a lasting intimate relationship with a man. I avoided men entirely for many years after my first boyfriend decided to marry someone else after 4 years with me. In my mid-30s I decided to give men a shot. After all the pain, heartache, disappointment, and expense (yes, I'm the one always buying the gifts, dinners, and trips, etc.), I just advise any INTJ women who are not in a relationship already to really REALLY think first before trying it. Most men have no concept of how to relate to an INTJ and assume that you're either a femme fatale (depending on your physical appearance) or just a "psycho," as one man put it. I've repeatedly been unfavorably compared by men I was dating to their former wives, girlfriends, or even sisters, because they have no other context to put you in. An INTJ's independence or self-reliance, I think, is viewed by men as threatening because it diminishes their importance/increases their insecurity. Basically, they will do anything they can to take you down a notch, whether it's innocuous criticisms about your unmanicured nails, or fooling around with other women.

[Jakalwarrior]

Step one, just chill and work on friendships rather than dating. Step two, when you find a male good looking enough to make babies with that also happens to be your great friend (and you think you could spend forever with him), that is who you date. If your predictions turn out to be true you mary him. If not you try again with somone else. Voula :D

[changos]

I'm a guy... I relate a lot to what you say.

Finding people you are attracted to involves your eyes, senses. Finding somebody compatible involves getting to know each other, each other. And takes time, is not easy. On the other hand is harder to find both at the same time.

Identifying people you are attracted is easier, so you have 50% done, then get to know them to see if you are compatible. It takes longer doing the opposite: investing time getting to know somebody to see if you are compatible and then trying to make it appear attractive to you.

The above is the main reason the looks matter... it is easier to get the job done (at least the first part).

Honestly, we intj might be misunderstood but our personality is wide on variety of options and flexible, we can adapt. Gain exposure, I find this exhausting but get to know as much people as you can. Invest some time with that.

I'm going to open a thread about "doing the opposite theories with love works". I have no clue on how this works... Good luck

[Jenny Penny]

I really like being in a relationship. I agree that a good one is extremely elusive. I have gone years without so much as looking at a guy. I'm 28. In college, I was too shy to talk to guys and I didn't have enough social confidence to pursue a relationship.

I think since our type is rare, we have to find niches with other INTJs or likeminded types to relate to. ES types tend to find each other much easier because they are out and about on the streets every day doing their thing while we prefer to stay out of the limelight.

I've also had many experiences with guys saying they don't understand me, that I'm too serious, that I need to smile, that I am an enigma, etc., but that just means they don't get me, and I lose interest in someone like that in a heartbeat.

I, too, have had lots of male friends that I find too simple or unattractive in some way. They confess they have feelings for me and then the friendship inevitably ends because things get too weird.

Go to events that you find interesting and that you would want to share with a potential partner. That might help you find someone you can live with and be happy with.

[Erika Redmark]

Yeah, I can relate. I don't like most people–even in general and as potential friends, let alone romantically. When I first moved into my dorm at college, I tried pretty hard to make friends with my neighbours, but they turned out to be rather…boring, to be honest. (All they seemed to care about was going to frat parties on the weekends–er, sorry, I mean starting on like Wednesday or something–and watching popular, beloved individuals' drunken antics. And having people observe their own drunken antics. I overheard one of them make some generalisation–"I do X when I'm drunk"–and the last flicker of "I should cultivate a thoroughly enjoyable academic camaraderie with these fellow university students" suffered a sudden, instantaneous death.) But some people I do feel like I can connect with. My problem has always been that there are probably a lot of such people that I never really get to know–romantically as well as as friends–because we're both too shy; the opposite has never happened to me.

Oh, and then there's the whole coming-off-as-weird-because-you're-not-feminine-enough thing.

[44sunsets]

I definately agree that intelligence is much more important than looks or age.
I wish there was some way for women to see men in this light.

Intelligence on its own is not enough. You need an interesting, attractive personality to go along with that.

A great personality + great intellect = winner combination.

And it's true: to women, looks and age and even wealth are much less important than the aforementioned qualities.

Back to the original topic: I've always thought that INTJ women are the pickiest when it comes to relationships. They are not as emotionally attached, so they can easily blow off unsuitable men. Worthy men (who have a great personality and great intellect) are very hard to come by.

i feel she's attracted to my intelligence and who i am, but yet she goes out with one of my friends who i'm assuming is an esfj. thats not to say he's a bad guy, i just didn't think she would be attracted to his traits. I just don't know what the hell to do anymore. If I make myself clear on how i feel about things, it doesn't help.

If she's dating him and not you, that makes things pretty clear. Don't waste your time and emotional energy with a girl who isn't available.

She might be attracted to your intelligence, but if you can't spark the attraction then all that is for nought.

Maybe you can come back to her later when she's single again, maybe not. Either way, you need to read some good dating books and learn how attraction works. Start off by reading To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. and David DeAngelo.


It's harder for men to find women that are intelligent & hot. Why? Does that comment reek of sexism to anyone else? Tons of just moderately attractive women paint themselves in our culture. If we say it's harder for INTJ men, aren't we saying women don't put as much effort into their education/mental development as do men?

Depends what you define as intelligence. If you mean the pure, logical kind of intelligence exemplified by INTJs and INTPs, then sure, those women are hard to find because most INTJs and INTPs are men, not women.

Overall, taking the big picture into account, I would dispute the idea that it's harder for men to find women who are intelligent and hot. Most INFPs and INFJs are women for example, and they are definitely intelligent and intellectual, though it will be a different "brand" of intellect.

[Nanashi]

You don't know how nice that was for me to hear, Icristhus.

[helium]

Hmm. I have never had a problem relating with women of any type. Then again, I treat women as people, not women. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

[Caramel]

Intelligence on its own is not enough. You need an interesting, attractive personality to go along with that.

A great personality + great intellect = winner combination.

And it's true: to women, looks and age and even wealth are much less important than the aforementioned qualities.

Wealth would be the result of great personality + great intellect (+ hard work). And with wealth the person could improve his looks (better clothing, visit the hairdresser more often..heck, he could even get plastic surgery done if he wants to). Wealth doesn't do anything for his real age ofcourse, but it could improve his health.

So yes, a great personality + great intellect really is a winner combination. :D

[Elfrun]

Back to the original topic: I've always thought that INTJ women are the pickiest when it comes to relationships. They are not as emotionally attached, so they can easily blow off unsuitable men. Worthy men (who have a great personality and great intellect) are very hard to come by.

Sadly I have to say that's true for me.

The thing is I don't feel as though I'm being picky (I am) I just clearly see what's wrong very quickly and let it go, the difference between emotionally attached and emotionally detached can be a single conversation or hurtful action that presents someone in a new light - I put my defences up instantaneously and am no longer emotionally available.

Jez where are those worthy men :thinking:

[Sara27]

Looks aren't as important to me as intelligence, sensitivity, and humor. I understand how important looks are to people, but to me a man becomes more attractive the more we click. A good looking man becomes ugly if I find out he's an ass.

It is hard for me to find suitable men. I'm not very good at socializing and it takes me a while to be interested in anyone since they become attractive to me after I get to know them. The older I get the harder it becomes since my pool of male friends has dwindled from a few to fewer.

I think there are good men out there. I'm just not sure if I'll find one I want to partner up with. I expect my relationships to be an equal partnership and sometimes that doesn't bode well with Mr. Y chromosome. I'm no body's mother and don't plan on adopting a man-child. I don't put myself 'out there' as much as I should, which limits the number of men I meet. Sometimes it's about playing the numbers. They're out there if we look around.

[Seppuku Savant]

I've never really understood why that would bother other guys... Personally (being a guy), I think it'd be awesome and funny and just plain interesting if a female gave me flowers, or something similar.

'Course, I tend to like unusual things that go against the norm like that. Either way, good for you. I'd say keep it up and you might eventually stumble across someone that'd genuinely appreciate it, instead of being scared off by it. I can't possibly be the only male in existence that'd think it a good thing.

I did find one guy that enjoyed it. I gave him flowers a handful of times in our year long relationship. He just wasn't mentally stimulating. lol It's always something.

[44sunsets]

I'm no body's mother and don't plan on adopting a man-child. I don't put myself 'out there' as much as I should, which limits the number of men I meet. Sometimes it's about playing the numbers. They're out there if we look around.

It definitely can be about playing the numbers, though skewing the numbers in your favour can help a lot.

I'm just curious, a lot of women (and particularly INTJ women) say they don't want to "mother" a man, can you explain in more detail what you mean by that?

Do you mean you don't want the man to look to you when making decisions? He can't be shy or socially anxious? That he needs to be independent -- lives on his own, is a good cook, is worldly and knows how things in general work, has an active social life, etc?

What kinds of things would make you see a potential mate as "immature" and childish?

[duende]

The "mothering need" to me is simple to explain-- an adult man expects a partner to weigh his concerns and emotional needs first, before anything else. On a practical level, the woman is expected to perform tasks that the mother did for him. For example, I actually cleaned out a guy's refrigerator once, which was the most repulsive thing I've ever done (I've never cleaned out my OWN refrigerator). I thought he'd be pretty thrille about it, since it had about 2 years' worth of expired food and evil-looking crud caked on the shelves. Instead, he just said "thanks" and wanted to know what had happened to some things I'd thrown out. After I got to know him better, I realized that he simply expected whatever woman he was with at the time to do such things for him. This man (now ex) is in his 30s and his mother still does his taxes for him!!

[Undead Bonzi]

After reading this thread (because eavesdropping on the opposite sex always yields good info) I have a few thoughts to offer. From reading the ideal traits that have been listed, to find a man you’re going to be swimming against social currents and inertia around 2000 years old. Men act manly because that is how you get a girl. Even today being sensitive and caring as a man earns you the dreaded title of 'nice guy' or a woman’s 'friend' 99.99% of the time. In terms of the female mating order, being a 'nice guy' puts you somewhere just above an AID's infected leper but below anyone else. As someone once told me: "'Nice' makes you a shoulder to cry on, never a penis to hold". I don't know if you can hold it against a guy for acting the way he does since to do anything else would almost equate to genetic suicide.

Finding a guy who meets 100% of your expectations is flat out impossible. Love is something that happens when you meet a person you think is perfect, then overtime you realize they are imperfect, then at the end you realize you love them anyway. It is just the way it is, logic does not apply to the situation. That said, there is no reason not to look for a man who meets your expectations...just realize that the rest of the female population on the planet is creating forces that work against you.

Of course this can all be dissmised as bulls#$% since it is coming from an INTP (who are not known for being really in touch with their 'F' side lol)

[onlyparallel]

It definitely can be about playing the numbers, though skewing the numbers in your favour can help a lot.

I'm just curious, a lot of women (and particularly INTJ women) say they don't want to "mother" a man, can you explain in more detail what you mean by that?

Do you mean you don't want the man to look to you when making decisions? He can't be shy or socially anxious? That he needs to be independent -- lives on his own, is a good cook, is worldly and knows how things in general work, has an active social life, etc?

What kinds of things would make you see a potential mate as "immature" and childish?

I think that 'mothering' a man is basically taking his mother's role in his life and taking care of him as if he's a child. Like cooking all of the time, or cleaning up after thim constantly, ridiculous things he should know how to do on his own. I wouldn't mind cooking some of the time, maybe even most of the time if his work hours get in the way or something, but I am not going to scoop up every traditional mother's job that need to be done for him. He has to do some. He has to understand that I need him to do things for me as well.

I think Duende summed it up perfectly.

The "mothering need" to me is simple to explain-- an adult man expects a partner to weigh his concerns and emotional needs first, before anything else. On a practical level, the woman is expected to perform tasks that the mother did for him.... After I got to know him better, I realized that he simply expected whatever woman he was with at the time to do such things for him. This man (now ex) is in his 30s and his mother still does his taxes for him!!

I feel kinda sorry for you as well, refridgerators are yucky.


After reading this thread (because eavesdropping on the opposite sex always yields good info) I have a few thoughts to offer. From reading the ideal traits that have been listed, to find a man you’re going to be swimming against social currents and inertia around 2000 years old. Men act manly because that is how you get a girl. Even today being sensitive and caring as a man earns you the dreaded title of 'nice guy' or a woman’s 'friend' 99.99% of the time. In terms of the female mating order, being a 'nice guy' puts you somewhere just above an AID's infected leper but below anyone else. As someone once told me: "'Nice' makes you a shoulder to cry on, never a penis to hold". I don't know if you can hold it against a guy for acting the way he does since to do anything else would almost equate to genetic suicide.

Finding a guy who meets 100% of your expectations is flat out impossible. Love is something that happens when you meet a person you think is perfect, then overtime you realize they are imperfect, then at the end you realize you love them anyway. It is just the way it is, logic does not apply to the situation. That said, there is no reason not to look for a man who meets your expectations...just realize that the rest of the female population on the planet is creating forces that work against you.

Of course this can all be dissmised as bulls#$% since it is coming from an INTP (who are not known for being really in touch with their 'F' side lol)

That's interesting advice, INTP or no :), and I think you have some excellent points. But, on the other hand, I think that when a man tries not to fall into the 'friend' role with a girl he's trying to attract a very different type of girl than an INTJ. I admit, falling into the friend role is something you have to be wary with when around certain girls, but I think many INTJ women (and I may be totaly wrong) would find a 'niceguy' a good boyfriend as well, and becoming a friend doesn't rule out that option.

[Undead Bonzi]

Oh I agree completely that what many INTJ women (and a few others) are looking for (or claim to be looking for) is the 'nice guy'. However you must consider that INTJ women account for what...maybe 1-5% of the female population, meaning that the bulk of the selection process is weighted towards the 'manly' (for want of a better term). Sort of think of it in terms of economics...low demand for 'nice guys' = low production.

The irony of the whole situation is kind of funny. If you asked all women to write down what their 'ideal' man would be, the answer you would get most often would add up to the 'nice guy'. However there is a difference between what many claim to hold as ideal and what many are actually attracted to. I will admit my perceptions on this subject are slightly skewed and not a just a little bit bitter. Being a college aged male who doesn't drink or party makes me very aware of just how hard it is to find a person to connect to.

Another little bit of advice a friend once gave me that makes me laugh is this : "Women are like washing machines at a laundromat, they are all either taken or out-of-order." You can feel free to insert men in place of women.

[BallentineChen]

I just can't feel attracted to them, and with the ones I'm not friends with, I often see through some (thousands of) myopic hang-ups they've picked up from around them.

What are some of these myopic hang ups?


I find that most straight men don't usually develop to find their true self, are not forced by their surroundings to interact in an truly egalitarian cooperative way with others in the way that women are, and I end up shocking myself time and time again (actually, probably not that often) by discovering that the man I'm ... incredibly ... able to be attracted to is ... wait for it ... gay. AGAIN. ERRGGGGHHH!!!

Maybe I never talk to the really vibrant, articulate, outgoing ones, but I tend to prefer guys that are not extremely confident, and are a little quieter.

What's going on? Are there really that few males that can relate to others in a fully healthy, individualized way without resorting to that masculinized script that they should grow out of ... or be grown out of ... while they're in uni? (But they're not all like that). I am not attracted to women. Anyone (female INTJs or those who've observed us) with similar experiences?

Women have the feminist movement to look back to to help form their identity, and I believe the injustices that they suffered forced them to dig into themselves and reflect on who they are, outside of what society dictates for them. What you're looking for in a man is someone who has been able to refute what society dictates a man should be, out of his own impetus. Also, you're asking him to redefine himself in an original way that mainstream society may not be receptive to, also so that he can perceive egalitarianism in a way that isn't a threat to himself.

I'm just telling you this, because I think you ought to know what your man is up against. If you look at the evolution of masculinity in society, it has all been dictated by media, and you can see it in advertising everyday. One of the greatest successes was the Marlboro man, whose image, I admit, appeals to me on a very deep level.

It takes someone who has a strong desire to question himself on a very fundamental level to empirically evaluate the principles that other men accept without notice.

Maybe you should give the vibrant, articulate ones a chance. For example, I have a very different personality when I'm at social gatherings where people often mistake me for being an extrovert, where I'm actually a pretty private person. Another place you can meet guys might be through volunteer organizations, or other sorts of community efforts/events. I find that people who devote their time to something tend to have more social consciousness, and may be more aware of themselves as a result. Perhaps try finding people when they are in their vocation.

[helium]

The "mothering need" to me is simple to explain-- an adult man expects a partner to weigh his concerns and emotional needs first, before anything else. On a practical level, the woman is expected to perform tasks that the mother did for him. For example, I actually cleaned out a guy's refrigerator once, which was the most repulsive thing I've ever done (I've never cleaned out my OWN refrigerator). I thought he'd be pretty thrille about it, since it had about 2 years' worth of expired food and evil-looking crud caked on the shelves. Instead, he just said "thanks" and wanted to know what had happened to some things I'd thrown out. After I got to know him better, I realized that he simply expected whatever woman he was with at the time to do such things for him. This man (now ex) is in his 30s and his mother still does his taxes for him!!

This seems wrong to me in about every way possible. I expect to provide everything for a woman, but not because she can't do it herself. Rather, I want to do it because I care that much about her. And I like for her to think the same way. In fact, it thrills me for a woman to step in and offer to help, to walk side by side with me, and that's the only way I can really sustain a relationship. The whole concept of gender roles seems foreign to me. I want a woman who is simply a strong person. If she has a tough time with mowing the lawn and I have a tough time with making phone calls, so be it. If she has a tough time being social and I have a tough time making car repairs, fine. We just have to be on some kind of even keel.

[Rei]

It's not entirely difficult to find guys who are physically appealing.
On the other hand, for them to be attractive requires an attractive personality.

My problem is, even if they are both physically appealing and their personality is a good one, I go on to ask whether they would make a good life-long partner.
I get into a relationship for the future, not for the sake of being in a relationship. This leads into the "mothering"... really, I don't want someone I have to issue orders to; I don't even really need anyone to provide for me. I just want someone who will automatically do stuff for me to make things easier/run more smoothly. (Not that I don't want to do my fair share, but YES, I want to be spoiled dammit! And then I'll return the favour.) My general preference is for men who are confident, but quietly so. Apparently that's too much to ask in most cases.

In terms of close friends, I have slightly more males than females. Some of which would have made good boyfriends. Some time recently, it was brought to my attention that several of them were interested in me in the past. As an afterthought I realized I'd made an unconscious choice (yes or no). It wasn't so much that I didn't know, but that I chose to ignore it for the sake of avoiding awkwardness.

Ugh to attractive gay men... the frustration is pretty universally felt. :irked:

[Deraj0100]

I agree with helium wholeheartedly.
Reading through this entire thread I can't help but feel like the one who "fell through the cracks" at times. I don't know if it's living in the South or that INTJ women are more rare but most of the qualities listed by the women here seem nothing short of desirable traits every man should want. From giving flowers, being strong/independent, to cleaning the fridge - it really astounds me that there seems to be a common problem with men not being attracted to you.
I have to admit that I relate to most of the stories told about finding or holding down a relationship, however, in my case it seems to be for a bit different reasons. For instance, I am a male INTJ with a type 3 Enneagram (with a pretty strong type 4 wing). I have a desire/need to be appreciated, respected, and even "admired" but only in a deserving fashion (in response to the things I do for my partner i.e. giving flowers, surprise gifts that fit, romantic dinners, etc). Simultaneously, I feel as though I should be treated equally/fairly which often times results in me feeling as though I'm giving more than receiving (which is in fact the case) and the partner putting me on some sort of pedestal. Each relationship I have been in (all long-running ones in excess of a year) have resulted in the partner feeling completely inadequate. At first I kind of liked the admiration but...it started to get out of hand. I really don't want to sound chauvinistic or egotistical here but I'm honestly just a guy who wants to do nice things - not be elevated to a "god-like" status. Most, not all, of the partners I have had have also had a hangup with my "femininity" as well. I have more feminine qualities than most guys whether it be my long, "girly" hair or my lack of masculine tendencies (I can enjoy a romantic tear-jerker of a movie and listen to Scissor Sisters with the best of 'em). So much so, in fact, that those same partners questioned my sexuality. I have no qualms with my sexuality or being perceived as "gay" and this seems to frighten most of the women I encounter. Again, I'm not sure if this is the South or just the lack of open-minded women (or men for that matter). I bring this and these other tidbits of info up because this thread so deviates from what I'm use to I feel I had to share. This entire glorybubble of a forum has blown me out of the water in terms of feeling understood/finding like-minded individuals. I always felt like the one with noone to relate to and form a meaningful relationship with - it's refreshing (sadly, mind you) to know that I'm not the only one (and it's not just males) that have trouble with holding down a relationship for these reasons.

[foroneonly]

Oh I agree completely that what many INTJ women (and a few others) are looking for (or claim to be looking for) is the 'nice guy'. However you must consider that INTJ women account for what...maybe 1-5% of the female population, meaning that the bulk of the selection process is weighted towards the 'manly' (for want of a better term). Sort of think of it in terms of economics...low demand for 'nice guys' = low production.

The irony of the whole situation is kind of funny. If you asked all women to write down what their 'ideal' man would be, the answer you would get most often would add up to the 'nice guy'. However there is a difference between what many claim to hold as ideal and what many are actually attracted to. I will admit my perceptions on this subject are slightly skewed and not a just a little bit bitter. Being a college aged male who doesn't drink or party makes me very aware of just how hard it is to find a person to connect to.

Another little bit of advice a friend once gave me that makes me laugh is this : "Women are like washing machines at a laundromat, they are all either taken or out-of-order." You can feel free to insert men in place of women.

How would you define or what traits would you associate with "manly" and "nice guy" in this context?

[Vertigo]

I would think that a nice guy is someone that's just plain nice all or most of the time, it doesn't mean he's in love, he's just a nice person. Wouldn't a INTJ woman/man combo be great? I'd be happy with an INTJ partner.

[terencec]

That's not sad at all. It seems life would be a lot easier if I had no desire to be in a relationship. As long as you're happy that way then keep on embracing it.

Wow, that is exactly what I think! Without relationship is ok for me because friendship can substitute for it, but I could not get rid of the sex desire! I was programmed to have it and could not program it the other way now!

[44sunsets]

Oh I agree completely that what many INTJ women (and a few others) are looking for (or claim to be looking for) is the 'nice guy'. However you must consider that INTJ women account for what...maybe 1-5% of the female population, meaning that the bulk of the selection process is weighted towards the 'manly' (for want of a better term). Sort of think of it in terms of economics...low demand for 'nice guys' = low production.


Bonzi, the trouble is that the typical nice guy is exactly the kind of guy who fails to attract women. In some rare circumstances, the nice guy might find a woman desperate enough to try a relationship with him, but it won't last, and she will always end up finding him repulsive.

INTJ women are women too, and in fact they generally have even higher standards than the rest of the population when it comes to men, so typical "nice guys" will certainly find no favour with INTJ women.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a guy to be caring, considerate, compassionate, an advocate for human rights and animal rights etc. But without a strong personality and a great character, those qualities do nothing to attract women. At most, a nice guy will have lots of women friends, but they won't feel any attraction for him.

I say all this as a recovering "nice guy" -- I was pretty much the ultimate INFJ nice guy, but I finally understood that I had to develop the other parts of my character if I wanted women to be able to see me as a potential mate.

[Colette]

I know being an INTJ woman plays into some of this. At the basic level, for me, it is so hard to find any people that I connect with, let alone romantically. Add in the needing to be physically attracted to each other and I lose...it seems, every time

It's not unusual for me to experience physical attraction (or for a guy to be attracted to me), but it's that 'connection' you speak of that is usually missing. Aside from meeting very few single men in my age group to begin with, the few I do come across are largely of the sensor variety, and therefore as far as I'm concerned, a 'no go' zone.

I am not bitter about any of this, I am just finding it is the reality of my life. I think that pining for something that may never come or letting being in a relationship determine my happiness are detrimental to my well being. My solution, thus far, is to continue to work on myself (internally and externally), keep enjoying my life and the good things that I already have, and really accept myself and love myself. If I can do those things, the rest will just be icing.

I don't think any of us have enough time on this planet to live our lives in a holding pattern, waiting for things to happen that we think will somehow make life meaningful, or allow us to really start 'living'. Trite as it may seem, starting each day by counting our blessings isn't a bad way to keep the glass topped up to the half way mark..

[PreyingMantis]

Bonzi, the trouble is that the typical nice guy is exactly the kind of guy who fails to attract women. In some rare circumstances, the nice guy might find a woman desperate enough to try a relationship with him, but it won't last, and she will always end up finding him repulsive.

INTJ women are women too, and in fact they generally have even higher standards than the rest of the population when it comes to men, so typical "nice guys" will certainly find no favour with INTJ women.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a guy to be caring, considerate, compassionate, an advocate for human rights and animal rights etc. But without a strong personality and a great character, those qualities do nothing to attract women. At most, a nice guy will have lots of women friends, but they won't feel any attraction for him.

I say all this as a recovering "nice guy" -- I was pretty much the ultimate INFJ nice guy, but I finally understood that I had to develop the other parts of my character if I wanted women to be able to see me as a potential mate.

I think it might depend on the age of the woman. Being attracted to someone is not a conscious thing, but it is influenced by what you have learnt consciously. If she is young, particularly if her conditioning has not allowed her to fully manifest her INTJ qualities, she will be influenced by popular culture and possibly want something that later she will realize she didn't really want. This is how it happened for me, anyway. I had lots of nice guys after me when i was 18 and up, but i didn't respect them and went out with a guy who i now realize was not very good for me psychologically. Now i realize i should have given those nice guys a chance, and would be happy to, but i guess now they've learnt to act tough, and i wouldn't like them any more, probably. I've learnt to be myself, and they've learnt to at least act, if not be, someone else.

Also, it might depend on where you live. Those qualities someone mentioned above, like being nice and advocating animal rights, are real success vouchers for the men i know.

[AutisticCuckoo]

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a guy to be caring, considerate, compassionate, an advocate for human rights and animal rights etc. But without a strong personality and a great character, those qualities do nothing to attract women. At most, a nice guy will have lots of women friends, but they won't feel any attraction for him.

I can testify to that.

[jikin]

Bonzi, the trouble is that the typical nice guy is exactly the kind of guy who fails to attract women. In some rare circumstances, the nice guy might find a woman desperate enough to try a relationship with him, but it won't last, and she will always end up finding him repulsive.

INTJ women are women too, and in fact they generally have even higher standards than the rest of the population when it comes to men, so typical "nice guys" will certainly find no favour with INTJ women.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a guy to be caring, considerate, compassionate, an advocate for human rights and animal rights etc. But without a strong personality and a great character, those qualities do nothing to attract women. At most, a nice guy will have lots of women friends, but they won't feel any attraction for him.

I say all this as a recovering "nice guy" -- I was pretty much the ultimate INFJ nice guy, but I finally understood that I had to develop the other parts of my character if I wanted women to be able to see me as a potential mate.


I'm going to have to take exception to this. I have always been attracted to "nice guys". As long as they are not sugary sweet and smothering I prefer them to "traditional" men.
To me compassion, consideration, caring for others and being an advocate for human rights are part of what makes great character.

[mlanders]

Find a man (not a "guy" or a "dude") who is about 10-15 years older than you. He will be over the younger guy issues and less inclined to put up with drama. Make sure he isn't a push-over, and that he isn't threatened by your assertiveness.

Your problem is actually very simple. You haven't found anyone who is a real challenge. Men (and boys) love to chase a hard to get woman, so they make it too easy for you. So the luster wears off very quickly. That's no fun. You need someone who really gets under your skin and drives you crazy. That's why you need to venture outside of your age group to the older ones who aren't gonna act like dumb frat boys.

[duende]

This seems wrong to me in about every way possible. I expect to provide everything for a woman, but not because she can't do it herself. Rather, I want to do it because I care that much about her. And I like for her to think the same way. In fact, it thrills me for a woman to step in and offer to help, to walk side by side with me, and that's the only way I can really sustain a relationship. The whole concept of gender roles seems foreign to me. I want a woman who is simply a strong person. If she has a tough time with mowing the lawn and I have a tough time with making phone calls, so be it. If she has a tough time being social and I have a tough time making car repairs, fine. We just have to be on some kind of even keel.

I guess one of the biggest difficulties I've experienced is that my male partners have never shown any interest in "caring" for me or in a serious or committed relationship with me. In fact, most men have indicated almost off the bat that, despite the fact that they are attracted to me and want to maintain a physical association, they are actively seeking other women with whom to be in a relationship. It is frustrating to be told repeatedly how I'm hot, successful, sexually desirable, intelligent, and then be put in the "do not love" category. I can only attribute this to the perception on men's part that, because I don't display girlish traits like affection or dependency or flirtatious behavior, I don't have any real need for anyone else's love.

[Gloed]

I had lots of nice guys after me when i was 18 and up, but i didn't respect them and went out with a guy who i now realize was not very good for me psychologically. Now i realize i should have given those nice guys a chance, and would be happy to, but i guess now they've learnt to act tough, and i wouldn't like them any more, probably. I've learnt to be myself, and they've learnt to at least act, if not be, someone else.


you missed your chance and now it's probably too late, until you realize one day that wasn't true and if you knew then what you know now, you wouldn't have missed that chance, but now, it's probably too late... repeat :surprised:

[Undead Bonzi]

Bonzi, the trouble is that the typical nice guy is exactly the kind of guy who fails to attract women. In some rare circumstances, the nice guy might find a woman desperate enough to try a relationship with him, but it won't last, and she will always end up finding him repulsive.

INTJ women are women too, and in fact they generally have even higher standards than the rest of the population when it comes to men, so typical "nice guys" will certainly find no favour with INTJ women.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a guy to be caring, considerate, compassionate, an advocate for human rights and animal rights etc. But without a strong personality and a great character, those qualities do nothing to attract women. At most, a nice guy will have lots of women friends, but they won't feel any attraction for him.

I say all this as a recovering "nice guy" -- I was pretty much the ultimate INFJ nice guy, but I finally understood that I had to develop the other parts of my character if I wanted women to be able to see me as a potential mate.


That was the basic point I was making. Not sure why you tried to correct me when what you said basically amounted to what I had previously stated in several post (though you did hit the nail on the head with the 'why' women are not attracted to 'nice guys'). I would offer a couple general counters to your argument about the lack of character though. I would say that a male who displays compassion, caring ect does often display a great deal of character, it is just more subtle. I would aslo point out that a person of the traditional male stereotype displays no greater amount of character than the 'nice guy', yet is still more attactive to the general female population. There is an inherent contradiction in what most women say they want and what they are actually attracted to. To put it bluntly in male terms, it is the difference between thinking with your brain and thinking with your dick. (Ladies feel free to substitute in proper anatomy, I try to only speak for the gender I belong to)

*Note that in all instances I am speaking in terms of the general population. There are people and groups that are the exception to every rule. The point of all my posts has been to illustrait that the general social inertia of our time/society is against the widespread creation/formation of the male that many of the INTJ women on this board have professed to have an interest in.

I do agree with most of what you have said though since I am also a recovering nice guy (though my 'nice guy' status came more from putting some effort into knowing and understanding the girl before I tried dating her...which always dumped me into the 'nice guy' friend category.) I was lucky enough to realize the problem in highschool and when I went to college I gained the chance to reinvent myself which has helped tremendously. It is a terrible day when a girl tries to complement you and all that she can say is ...'your smart and funny and a nice guy'. I would have prefered a kick in the stones.

[Lucid]

This seems wrong to me in about every way possible. I expect to provide everything for a woman, but not because she can't do it herself. Rather, I want to do it because I care that much about her. And I like for her to think the same way. In fact, it thrills me for a woman to step in and offer to help, to walk side by side with me, and that's the only way I can really sustain a relationship. The whole concept of gender roles seems foreign to me. I want a woman who is simply a strong person. If she has a tough time with mowing the lawn and I have a tough time with making phone calls, so be it. If she has a tough time being social and I have a tough time making car repairs, fine. We just have to be on some kind of even keel.

Helium, where have you been all my life?

Seriously though, it's very encouraging to hear a male say that kind of stuff. You get +2 for general awesomeness.

I guess one of the biggest difficulties I've experienced is that my male partners have never shown any interest in "caring" for me or in a serious or committed relationship with me. In fact, most men have indicated almost off the bat that, despite the fact that they are attracted to me and want to maintain a physical association, they are actively seeking other women with whom to be in a relationship. It is frustrating to be told repeatedly how I'm hot, successful, sexually desirable, intelligent, and then be put in the "do not love" category. I can only attribute this to the perception on men's part that, because I don't display girlish traits like affection or dependency or flirtatious behavior, I don't have any real need for anyone else's love.

I have the same experience all the time. It is frustrating and also makes me feel like I am lacking in some essential way. It sucks to feel unlovable, but the independence and self-reliance it creates (or is the result of) isn't something I'd give up.

[duende]

You're totally right-- I know few women who are married, so it's fascinating to me to observe how some married women display so much dependency in their behavior or the way they talk about themselves ("we" or "us," but never "I"). The last time I was getting my car serviced, a woman who was also waiting, in her 20s, actually made the mechanic wait while she called her husband--twice!!--to get his approval for the work. I've never consulted a man with whom I'm romantically involved about making any decision or even felt the need to do it. It really blew my mind, but to her it was just natural.

[iknow318]

I am a INTJ woman...

I am attractive, intelligent, and independent.

Okay, so we are soo on the same page.

I didn't have a official bf for a long time bc it was an either or kind of deal. Either i was atttacted to them physically but couldnt stand to "be" with them too long. Or they were not attractive to me, but i spend time and have fun with them for ages.

For a while I thought that maybe the problem was with me and I wanted/expected too much from the men i was attracted to - but that wasn't the case. I dated push overs bc they were so easy to _____( u fill in the blank), but it was never physical. It was the men who weren't afraid to offer their opinion - not matter how wrong it was - that got the goodies.

Eventually, I gave up my hot fcuk buddies for a man who genuinely loves me no matter how much of a "B" i am ( solely according to others' opinions). I just had to find a least one SUPER DUPER attractive thing about him. I suggest you do the same.

But .. don't give up your Prince Charming is outhere somewhere. :)

[Eric86]

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a guy to be caring, considerate, compassionate, an advocate for human rights and animal rights etc. But without a strong personality and a great character, those qualities do nothing to attract women.
Guys who are all of that still get passed up, though....myself included. I have zero actual relationship experience.

[Lucid]

Eventually, I gave up my hot fcuk buddies for a man who genuinely loves me no matter how much of a "B" i am ( solely according to others' opinions). I just had to find a least one SUPER DUPER attractive thing about him. I suggest you do the same.

But .. don't give up your Prince Charming is outhere somewhere. :)

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say you had to find one SUPER DUPER attractive thing about him? Can you give an example?

[Romeo]

I would think that a nice guy is someone that's just plain nice all or most of the time, it doesn't mean he's in love, he's just a nice person. Wouldn't a INTJ woman/man combo be great? I'd be happy with an INTJ partner.
I'm a 58 years old INTJ and I'm the luckiest person around because I've been involved with another INTJ for five glorious years and going stronger than ever! It's the best match around.

[Indubitably]

Hehe, oh its not just females. You could literally have lifted almost this same post from my livejournal. I keep getting myself into these relationships that I know just aren't going to last. Right from the get go the girl is either a lesbian that wanted to experiment, or married, or just not interested in anything more than sex, or I'm not really that interested and we wind up as just friends.

I hate to break it to you, but the number and quality of acceptable potential mates is not the problem. Let me ask you one question: are you ever satisfied with yourself? That is to say, do you ever feel like you have achieved enough in your life, and do you feel like you are acceptable as you are? I don't know about you, but for me the answer is almost always no. There always seems to be more that I can learn, a better way to do something, another puzzle that I just won't be happy until I solve. I am an INTP, so I don't have so many issues with leaving things unresolved, but for the INTJs I have met, this same seemingly insatiable need to strive for constant growth and self improvement seems to be incredibly frustrating, and I believe that is at the heart of what you are feeling. I strongly suspect that the those fundamentally unattainable standards we hold ourselves to, are reflected in our choice of mate. They will never measure up to our expectations, because we will never measure up to our expectations, and we will settle for nothing less than our equal.

We surround ourselves with incredibly beautiful gay people of the opposite gender because they are safe. We can allow ourselves to accept them because we know we will never have to actually put their worth as a mate to the test. In essence the very reason they are good enough for us is the fact that they are unattainable, just as our ideal self image is unattainable.

[Sara27]

It definitely can be about playing the numbers, though skewing the numbers in your favour can help a lot.

I'm just curious, a lot of women (and particularly INTJ women) say they don't want to "mother" a man, can you explain in more detail what you mean by that?

Do you mean you don't want the man to look to you when making decisions? He can't be shy or socially anxious? That he needs to be independent -- lives on his own, is a good cook, is worldly and knows how things in general work, has an active social life, etc?

What kinds of things would make you see a potential mate as "immature" and childish?

Mothering a man who is suppose to be my partner looks a lot like the traditional gender roles of the 'bad old days' where the husband goes to work and the wife takes care of the husband, kids, and house. Only now a days women often have jobs on top of all the traditional roles. I'm no man's mother meaning that I expect my relationships to be a partnership. I will not do all the cooking and cleaning after coming home from work. I want a 50/50 split. If I'm better at laundry and he's better at cooking than I'll do the laundry while he cooks. No big deal. I just won't be the "wife".

It seems more difficult to find men that are willing to do their half of the work. I see it all the time; their mom still takes care of them. At family get togethers the women are in the kitchen cooking and cleaning while the guys drink and watch the game. It's less likely that a person will break from the gender roles that they are raised in. I know it happens. I've broken away as many people on this forum have, but the majority of people do not.

I think it's great when a couple looks to each other for input. I see that as a good thing. Also, different people are good at different things. I'm fine with a man being shy, sometimes anxious. That's life. Personally I would like a man who is independent since I'm independent. Someone who is okay being with himself. Worldly is a plus, but not necessary. Some people don't have the means. Educated is a plus. Intelligent is a must. If I have to explain everything to them I loose interest. Everything means how to do things, what a comment means, what happened during a twist in a movie :), etc.

I shy away from men who are always in relationships. I don't think they know how to be alone. That's the type I see getting a new girlfriend before dumping the old one. I'd rather be dumped sooner rather than later because he doesn't want to be without a girlfriend.

Immature and childish: Not figuring anything out on their own. Having someone else do things for them (laundry, dishes, cook, clean). Not stepping up to their responsibilities at the house. Expecting the little woman to always pick up the slack. Always taking in a relationship and rarely giving. Constantly getting support and encouragement, but never reciprocating.

[duende]

I am a INTJ woman...
But .. don't give up your Prince Charming is outhere somewhere. :)


It's funny, but I've heard that from so many people before, and I honestly don't believe it. I don't ever expect to find "the one" -- it would just be nice if the guys who I do engage with from time to time didn't always end up to be cruel and selfish and demeaning. It's just unpleasant, for no real purpose except to boost their own ego. At this point, it would take A LOT for me to be interested in a man in the sense of exploring a real relationship. It would be easier to win the multistate lottery than to meet such a person!

[Lynne]

99.9% of the time, I know immediately that I am not attracted to the other person. The other .01% I ask myself, if it was the end of the world and I had one other person to survive it with, would it be him? If the answer is no, then move on.

What I am looking for is someone who I know has integrity, has intelligence, is passionate about their opinions yet still willing to hear mine, is kind, and is my best friend.

I gave up compromising when I realized that it is better to be alone than lonely. When the other person doesn't get me or tries to generalize about male/female differences I know they haven't really seen me at all. When someone thinks that your opinions are wrong, when they expect you to be someone you're not, when they keep trying to change you it is very, very lonely.

I could never get myself to do the dating thing. I've always known that my person would be at home reading a book or doing something else equally interesting.

[PreyingMantis]

Quote: 99.9% of the time, I know immediately that I am not attracted to the other person. The other .01% I ask myself, if it was the end of the world and I had one other person to survive it with, would it be him? If the answer is no, then move on.



..........Yes, i am the same, unconsciously - i can't stop it even if i try.



Quote: I gave up compromising when I realized that it is better to be alone than lonely. When the other person doesn't get me or tries to generalize about male/female differences I know they haven't really seen me at all. When someone thinks that your opinions are wrong, when they expect you to be someone you're not, when they keep trying to change you it is very, very lonely.



It's good to be reminded of that. It's true for me, too.

[iknow318]

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say you had to find one SUPER DUPER attractive thing about him? Can you give an example?

Sure, well my husband is by no means Prince Charming, but after I learned that he has a REALLY big heart and just likes to play the tough guy - It was a trait that I couldn't overlook. For some reason that made me want to draw stupid hearts with our names in them...lol.

There will always plenty of "flaws" to point out when you're looking for a reason "not to settle down" - but its when you ignore all the crap and find the single most "wonderfullest" thing about a person - that is where it all begins....

:)

[deuteros]

I'm a 58 years old INTJ and I'm the luckiest person around because I've been involved with another INTJ for five glorious years and going stronger than ever! It's the best match around.

I second that. I am 26 and my wife and I are both INTJs. It's great because we both "get" each other. She is a type A and I am Type B so we aren't completely alike.

[Romeo]

I second that. I am 26 and my wife and I are both INTJs. It's great because we both "get" each other. She is a type A and I am Type B so we aren't completely alike.
I know exactly what you mean. I'm a more extraverted INTJ and he is more introverted. We are so lucky and I'm so grateful to have him in my life.

[volk]

It seems we all have this biological urge to start a family and live a stereotypical "happy life" as most of the people define it. Sometimes I just wish I could find someone I would truly be compatible with. Someone emotionally stimulating who I can fire up interesting conversations with and someone who I could give a warm, embracing hug to show just how much that person means to me.

Then I suddenly stop and think - what is it that would be so much better if I supposedly found this someone? After a while it would come about as exhausting and I would begin wishing I could have a break and just be alone for a few weeks. If I was in a relationship I would no longer have the luxury of being all by myself during the weekends. I would not have any time to emotionally recharge after a week of work. There would constantly be a factor of dependency in a sense that I would find myself worrying about not providing my woman with all the things she expects from a relationship. I don't like being dependent on people, be it emotionally or in any other way. Thinking about all of that makes me realize that maybe it's not at all what I want. All of this is just an instinctive desire, nothing else...

I agree - life would be so much easier without these feelings. Then whether it would make the world a better place as a whole is a different story..





volk added to this post, 32 minutes and 9 seconds later...

The posts about 'nice guys' got me thinking - that doesn't only apply to women. As a guy I don't want a woman who would be trying to be the stereotypical wife ironing my shirts, cooking for me every day just because she feels it's her duty, etc. I've had enough of that stuff from my isfj mom when I was little and I hate it because it makes me feel incompetent. I want someone who would do anything to make _her own_ dreams come true in the first place. Since I do tend to put myself first most of the time, someone who does the same would be quite relaxing to be together with. My biggest demand is that she is capable to look me in the eyes and tell me exactly how she feels - when we got that part down it's a good start for a long lasting relationship.

Indeed.. maybe an intj/entj would be the perfect match for me..

[buddingscholar]

After taking a hiatus from this forum, I have returned. Damn, is it good to be back.
As a young INTJ female, I tend to have certain minimum requirements:

must have completed or working towards a college degree,
must have a job,
must be single,
must have a sexual preference for women (bisexual is also acceptable)

These are just the basics. Things I also tend to look for:
Wit
A laid-back nature to balance out my neuroticism
Nerdiness (the nerdier, the better)
Ambition
Well-read
Well-mannered

And yes, ENFPs do make me melt. INTJs need someone to help them connect to their emotional side, because goodness knows that we don't do that often enough.

It is hard for an INTJ female to find a mate, but it is possible. I would recommend looking online.

[Indubitably]

Quote: 99.9% of the time, I know immediately that I am not attracted to the other person. The other .01% I ask myself, if it was the end of the world and I had one other person to survive it with, would it be him? If the answer is no, then move on.



..........Yes, i am the same, unconsciously - i can't stop it even if i try.



Quote: I gave up compromising when I realized that it is better to be alone than lonely. When the other person doesn't get me or tries to generalize about male/female differences I know they haven't really seen me at all. When someone thinks that your opinions are wrong, when they expect you to be someone you're not, when they keep trying to change you it is very, very lonely.



It's good to be reminded of that. It's true for me, too.

It is definitely good to to know yourself, but it is of course also very important to be careful of this kind of thinking in a general sense. Don't forget that when you make a snap judgment based on initial impressions, whether you realize it or not, you are making a judgment about someone's outward appearance, and the current circumstances of their life, not about the person themself. (It is certainly possible to get the two confused, but if you do, you are only fooling yourself.)

When you decide that you want to be with a person, or you don't want to be with a person, make sure you actually know who they are first. If you aren't willing to compromise on the quality of your mate it only makes sense that you would not compromise on the quality of your judgment process.

[Nanashi]

"I want someone who would do anything to make _her own_ dreams come true in the first place."

I think that's one of the most beautiful things said on this thread :) It's great to have a partner who takes a bite out of life.Lovely thought.

[duende]

It was emphasized earlier in the forum that it's best to start a friendship with a man first and then let a relationship grow out of that. The difficulty in this approach, I've found, is that men almost immediately approach me or relate to me as a potential "love" interest or sex partner. Some of these men may very well be great partners, but having some dude I barely know rub my back, hug me, make remarks about my looks, or ask about my past romantic experiences while I'm simply socializing with him is incredibly annoying and a huge turnoff. I admit I usually don't give these guys a second chance. I was wondering if someone could offer suggestions as to dealing with men who approach them this way, so as not to ruin what could be, at the least, a good friendship. These men seem to make the automatic assumption that because a woman is single, she is "available" or "looking" for someone.

[Nanashi]

duende: I'd suggest socializing in a group of mutual friends might make them think twice about making their potential interest known...?

[duende]

It's interesting you suggest that-- I've observed that when I'm in a group of people, the man will only act in such a manner when he has somehow physically separated me from the others-- it's like some throwback to hunter-herd behavior.

[JoeyDude]

I was wondering if someone could offer suggestions as to dealing with men who approach them this way, so as not to ruin what could be, at the least, a good friendship.

I've noticed that if you share interests in stun guns and mace they start off friends first.

[Lynne]

Duende:

How are you coming across to other people? I find that for the most part I am treated with respect. Some men try to do the player thing with me, but it doesn't take them long to realize it won't work.

[bmartinl]

There must be some way for me as a male INTJ to identify female INTJs. I guess I should watch out for the quiet people standing back and carefully observing everything...then ask if they'd like to come over to my place for some hardcore analysis? :)

I've never known an INTJ female, or perhaps I have but just missed it. I'm wondering, is there some kind of gender specific problem female INTJs are having with finding a relationship? Or would we all share the same basic problem?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I've stumbled across this site while trying to understand the latest Titanic in my life and it's reassuring (or depressing?) to know this is not something I'm experiencing alone. I'm an INTJ female, 40 y.o. (gasp), and I've never been in a lasting intimate relationship with a man. I avoided men entirely for many years after my first boyfriend decided to marry someone else after 4 years with me. In my mid-30s I decided to give men a shot. After all the pain, heartache, disappointment, and expense (yes, I'm the one always buying the gifts, dinners, and trips, etc.), I just advise any INTJ women who are not in a relationship already to really REALLY think first before trying it. Most men have no concept of how to relate to an INTJ and assume that you're either a femme fatale (depending on your physical appearance) or just a "psycho," as one man put it. I've repeatedly been unfavorably compared by men I was dating to their former wives, girlfriends, or even sisters, because they have no other context to put you in. An INTJ's independence or self-reliance, I think, is viewed by men as threatening because it diminishes their importance/increases their insecurity. Basically, they will do anything they can to take you down a notch, whether it's innocuous criticisms about your unmanicured nails, or fooling around with other women.
This post struck a cord with me. I'm 48 and have been my first long-term relationship for 8 years now. When i think about the men I've chosen to 'try' with in the past I realize that none of them were right for me. I also realize that there were many who were right for me that I passed up. Why? Who knows. But, even when I did find 'Mr. Right' it was very hard going for me.

Self-analysis................I have alot of issues. Working on these throughout my adult life probably allowed me to open up to the right type of person for me and gave me a fighting chance to be able to stay in the relationship.

[jikin]

I've never known an INTJ female, or perhaps I have but just missed it. I'm wondering, is there some kind of gender specific problem female INTJs are having with finding a relationship? Or would we all share the same basic problem?

There is a bit of a difference between female and male INTJs trying to find a relationship. The main problem being that most people expect women to be lovable, huggable, flirty, social, emotional and talkative. INTJ women, obviously, do not normally follow this pattern. So even once we get into a relationship, it can be hard to maintain with somebody who is used to the "normal woman".

[duende]

There must be some way for me as a male INTJ to identify female INTJs. I guess I should watch out for the quiet people standing back and carefully observing everything.


Yes, your description is pretty close to the mark. However, if I'm in the right mood, right circumstances, in a social setting, I can come off as more of an extrovert and, of course, that behavior is much more attractive and appealing to other people, esp. men. The problem of course, is that meeting someone for the first time under those circumstances creates the impression that this is the person you are (I've even been called a "party girl"!) So developing a more serious relationship post-"first contact" is pretty difficult. It's a catch-22 -- I can't really meet a potential partner while I'm sitting at home reading my book or out hiking in the woods.

[OneHertz]

Mothering a man who is suppose to be my partner looks a lot like the traditional gender roles of the 'bad old days' where the husband goes to work and the wife takes care of the husband, kids, and house. Only now a days women often have jobs on top of all the traditional roles. I'm no man's mother meaning that I expect my relationships to be a partnership. I will not do all the cooking and cleaning after coming home from work. I want a 50/50 split. If I'm better at laundry and he's better at cooking than I'll do the laundry while he cooks. No big deal. I just won't be the "wife".

May I ask you to rationalize this a bit? What if you did not have to work, and it was like the old days? You have a very "modern" way of thinking. I am actually looking for a wife to do all those things you hate for me... I am not expecting her to work however, and I am absolutely certain that she will never have to. My logic is that she will raise the kids and take care of the house - that's her "job." I am just very curious about your post and want to pick your brain a little bit.

Thanks.

[mkay]

May I ask you to rationalize this a bit? What if you did not have to work, and it was like the old days? You have a very "modern" way of thinking. I am actually looking for a wife to do all those things you hate for me... I am not expecting her to work however, and I am absolutely certain that she will never have to. My logic is that she will raise the kids and take care of the house - that's her "job." I am just very curious about your post and want to pick your brain a little bit.

Thanks.

Assuming that a woman was willing to do this -- and there are a good number of women who'd be willing -- I think she'd be taking a risk because you have all the economic power. If you tired of her, decided one day that you didn't want to be the sole breadwinner, lost your career or any number of scenarios, she'd be up a creek*. In previous generations, there was more social pressure for couples to stay together, so less financial exposure. There would have been more safety net, too, because extended families were more likely to help. ... But I doubt you'd have trouble finding a woman willing to take the risk. There are many such couples the higher up you go in income.

* There are alimony and child support, but there are lots of situations where the women end up worse off financially than when they were married. (I'm not looking to start a debate on who gets more financially screwed in a divorce; there are plenty of ugly stories among both sexes.)

[OneHertz]

Assuming that a woman was willing to do this -- and there are a good number of women who'd be willing -- I think she'd be taking a risk because you have all the economic power. If you tired of her, decided one day that you didn't want to be the sole breadwinner, lost your career or any number of scenarios, she'd be up a creek*. In previous generations, there was more social pressure for couples to stay together, so less financial exposure. There would have been more safety net, too, because extended families were more likely to help. ... But I doubt you'd have trouble finding a woman willing to take the risk. There are many such couples the higher up you go in income.

I get your point, but the fact that the woman does not work doesn't mean she isn't capable of working. My mother has a PhD, but she has not worked a single day after getting it... She theoretically could easily make her own living, but she prefers not to because the extra 80k/year she would make wouldn't make a big enough difference.

There are a lot of child development studies that conclude that the best way for a child to develop is with his biological mother and that doesn't work too well if the mother starts leaving for work... Back in junior high school I kept winning regional math contests and actually wound up as third in "all of Ontario" in terms of mathematics for my age bracket. I have a few achievements of this grade and I attribute them 100% to my mothers ability to spend a couple of hours every day with me doing various learning and development exercises when I was very young. I can process information extremely quickly and have an amazing memory now and I really don't think I would have had this if she didn't take all that time with me in the past. Because of her own extensive education she was also able to teach me a lot about science, history etc. I could have never had all this with a working mother.

My future children are my main concern really... I attribute most of my successes in life to how I was raised, and that was with a stay at home mother.

[mkay]

I get your point, but the fact that the woman does not work doesn't mean she isn't capable of working. My mother has a PhD, but she has not worked a single day after getting it... She theoretically could easily make her own living, but she prefers not to because the extra 80k/year she would make wouldn't make a big enough difference. There are a lot of child development studies that conclude that the best way for a child to develop is with his biological mother and that doesn't work too well if the mother starts leaving for work, does it... My future children are my main concern really... I attribute most of my successes in life to how I was raised, and that was with a stay at home mother.

I'm not arguing for or against whether a parent should stay home. I don't have any kids; my opinion doesn't matter. I was just saying that there's a risk involved for the woman (or man) who stays home for years. Whether any other woman takes that risk is not my call. I don't assume that because a woman stays home that she can't work; it's just a matter of trying to get on a career track and make decent money if you've gone years without working. That's just a reality for anyone -- man or woman.

There was a New York Times article about more college-educated women making a decision to stay home or at least being open to the idea. It ran maybe a couple months ago. You might be interested in reading it.

I'm not trying to sway you, if that's your impression. I was just making an observation about the subject.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Maybe the solution is for the 'breadwinner' husband to pay his 'housewife' a salary.

[PortInStorm]

I'm not arguing for or against whether a parent should stay home. I don't have any kids; my opinion doesn't matter. I was just saying that there's a risk involved for the woman (or man) who stays home for years. Whether any other woman takes that risk is not my call. I don't assume that because a woman stays home that she can't work; it's just a matter of trying to get on a career track and make decent money if you've gone years without working. That's just a reality for anyone -- man or woman.

There was a New York Times article about more college-educated women making a decision to stay home or at least being open to the idea. It ran maybe a couple months ago. You might be interested in reading it.

I'm not trying to sway you, if that's your impression. I was just making an observation about the subject.
Yep, and a great book called the Feminine Mistake.

[schwartzie]

... This entire glorybubble of a forum has blown me out of the water in terms of feeling understood/finding like-minded individuals.

Yum! A lovely new word for my collection: glorybubble.

*thinks, "mebbe I'll go test it out on the huggles thread...."*





schwartzie added to this post, 15 minutes and 27 seconds later...

I'm going to have to take exception to this. I have always been attracted to "nice guys". As long as they are not sugary sweet and smothering I prefer them to "traditional" men.
To me compassion, consideration, caring for others and being an advocate for human rights are part of what makes great character.

agreed. I plain prefer INTJ or even INTP men. And "nice" is pretty much as essential as smart; a social and political conscience. I truly do not get the idea that "nice" is not OK. I suspect that it's not "nice" but immature "F-ness" that is the problem. I've met a sum total of, I think, two male Fs that I've been attracted to; Like the best INTJs or INTPs, these two had developed their Fness. They were curious and thoughtful and had very substantial insight into what makes people tick. They were grown up! Women love them, even tho they are not esp. good-looking in any conventional way.





schwartzie added to this post, 12 minutes and 45 seconds later...

I hate to break it to you, but the number and quality of acceptable potential mates is not the problem. ...for the INTJs I have met, this same seemingly insatiable need to strive for constant growth and self improvement seems to be incredibly frustrating, and I believe that is at the heart of what you are feeling. I strongly suspect that the those fundamentally unattainable standards we hold ourselves to, are reflected in our choice of mate. They will never measure up to our expectations, because we will never measure up to our expectations, and we will settle for nothing less than our equal....

Not that I agree or anything, (being an INTJ...but...) For INTJ women for whom this rings true, have a look at this spooky little thing: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[duende]

I get your point, but the fact that the woman does not work doesn't mean she isn't capable of working. My mother has a PhD, but she has not worked a single day after getting it... She theoretically could easily make her own living, but she prefers not to because the extra 80k/year she would make wouldn't make a big enough difference.

There are a lot of child development studies that conclude that the best way for a child to develop is with his biological mother and that doesn't work too well if the mother starts leaving for work... Back in junior high school I kept winning regional math contests and actually wound up as third in "all of Ontario" in terms of mathematics for my age bracket. I have a few achievements of this grade and I attribute them 100% to my mothers ability to spend a couple of hours every day with me doing various learning and development exercises when I was very young. I can process information extremely quickly and have an amazing memory now and I really don't think I would have had this if she didn't take all that time with me in the past. Because of her own extensive education she was also able to teach me a lot about science, history etc. I could have never had all this with a working mother.

My future children are my main concern really... I attribute most of my successes in life to how I was raised, and that was with a stay at home mother.

I hazard to guess that there were myriad socioeconomic factors at play in your early academic successes and upbringing than the mere fact that your mother did not work. For example, plenty of children are raised by mothers who do not work but live on assistance, and unfortunately they do not necessarily seem to benefit from such an upbringing academically or professionally. In the area where I live, which has an abundance of successful, highly-paid professionals, both parents typically work and utilize au pairs, nannies, day school, etc. to raise their children. This approach doesn't seem to hinder the children's mental/emotional growth at all-- I wish I had had a similar upbringing!!

[OneHertz]

I hazard to guess that there were myriad socioeconomic factors at play in your early academic successes and upbringing than the mere fact that your mother did not work. For example, plenty of children are raised by mothers who do not work but live on assistance, and unfortunately they do not necessarily seem to benefit from such an upbringing academically or professionally. In the area where I live, which has an abundance of successful, highly-paid professionals, both parents typically work and utilize au pairs, nannies, day school, etc. to raise their children. This approach doesn't seem to hinder the children's mental/emotional growth at all-- I wish I had had a similar upbringing!!

I do not see how our socioeconomic status changed anything back when I was in juniour high... I did not have any private teachers or anything like that. It played a big role in where I am right now, but not back then.

Yes, a stay at home mother is definitely not the only factor there. Her education level would probably play a large role as well as her willingness to spend a lot of time with her children (personality more or less). My mother also actually spent a few years studying psychology (focus on child development) which probably helped as well.

There is actually a rather large amount of journal articles (studies) in regards to the subject. There have been multiple studies done that show that children that are raised by various nannies (i.e. anyone but the mother) have a generally lower average job success level and are more prone to various personality disorders and emotional issues later in life. This is what my minor in psychology taught me anyhow. I would post up some proper articles that are still available to me through my university, but that would be illegal as they are not free content...

The way I see it, if the mother is working then the child takes a hit. How much of an effect this has of course can not be explained by anyone, but if the monetary constraints were removed I just don't see why the woman should be working.

[mkay]

[INDENT]... have a look at this spooky little thing: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This colorquiz is funny. It says my "actual problem" is "Takes a delight in action and wants to be respected and esteemed for her personal accomplishments." ... So it seems my actual problem is my entire personality, lol.

The way I see it, if the mother is working then the child takes a hit. How much of an effect this has of course can not be explained by anyone, but if the monetary constraints were removed I just don't see why the woman should be working.

So how would you feel about staying home if your wife made more money?

[duende]

The way I see it, if the mother is working then the child takes a hit. How much of an effect this has of course can not be explained by anyone, but if the monetary constraints were removed I just don't see why the woman should be working.

Obviously, the decision of whether to work while raising a child is personal. For myself, I'd rather be pursuing my professional goals and building my life's savings than doing nothing but pushing around a baby stroller, cleaning diapers, and talking at a child's level for x years when, at any moment, the provider, i.e. the male partner, may simply up and leave. To me, it simply doesn't seem emotionally or intellectually healthy for the woman. "Work" isn't just a source of income, but independence and security.
To illustrate-- a relation of mine tried for several years with her husband to become pregnant. Ironically, only a few months after the child was born, he divorced her. He worked long hours and really wasn't prepared for living with an infant, much less helping to raise it. My relation, who was a housewife, was forced to live with her own parents at the age of 35 while subsisting on child support!

[OneHertz]

Obviously, the decision of whether to work while raising a child is personal. For myself, I'd rather be pursuing my professional goals and building my life's savings than doing nothing but pushing around a baby stroller, cleaning diapers, and talking at a child's level for x years when, at any moment, the provider, i.e. the male partner, may simply up and leave. To me, it simply doesn't seem emotionally or intellectually healthy for the woman. "Work" isn't just a source of income, but independence and security.
To illustrate-- a relation of mine tried for several years with her husband to become pregnant. Ironically, only a few months after the child was born, he divorced her. He worked long hours and really wasn't prepared for living with an infant, much less helping to raise it. My relation, who was a housewife, was forced to live with her own parents at the age of 35 while subsisting on child support!

I can understand the trust part... Men that leave their children ruin it for the rest of us :(

So how would you feel about staying home if your wife made more money?

If I believed it would help my child and trusted my spouse then I would be ok with it.

[Anon722]

I want to compare information with other INTJ women and see if this is a general trend, or just me.

I find it incredibly difficult to find a man I am both physically attracted to (that's way hard enough) let alone someone I really feel comfortable with - enough to really attach myself to. As a result, I tend to have "f***-buddies" or else nice guys I string along for a while until I just can't any longer (and I don't want to hurt them - it's just how I am). This has been happening since time immemorial. I'm sick of it. I just want to get settled with someone so I don't have to go through the separation,the wasted energy, and the steps of getting to know someone new again and again and again ...

Most men - the ones I'm not at all "interested" in (except as anthropological/sociological/psychological/comical study specimens) - either hate me or are turned off by my ... well, I guess my INTJ-ness (translate: their hang-ups about heterosexuality and themselves). But it's not their opinion of me that's the issue. I don't like "bad guys", although admittedly a push-over is not a turn-on, but like guys that are truly cooperative, non-judgemental, real rather than acting out a role, ... . I am certain that my tastes are healthy. It's not that I don't like guys - I find them easy to get on with, and have lots of them as friends.

It's not that I'm an intolerant critical person. I just can't feel attracted to them, and with the ones I'm not friends with, I often see through some (thousands of) myopic hang-ups they've picked up from around them. I find that most straight men don't usually develop to find their true self, are not forced by their surroundings to interact in an truly egalitarian cooperative way with others in the way that women are, and I end up shocking myself time and time again (actually, probably not that often) by discovering that the man I'm ... incredibly ... able to be attracted to is ... wait for it ... gay. AGAIN. ERRGGGGHHH!!!

Maybe I never talk to the really vibrant, articulate, outgoing ones, but I tend to prefer guys that are not extremely confident, and are a little quieter.

What's going on? Are there really that few males that can relate to others in a fully healthy, individualized way without resorting to that masculinized script that they should grow out of ... or be grown out of ... while they're in uni? (But they're not all like that). I am not attracted to women. Anyone (female INTJs or those who've observed us) with similar experiences?

First of all, Hi. I'm a MALE INTJ, but I find it hard to know someone "on the other side of the fence" who would be a suitable partner for me. So I felt attracted here, to tell you that I have the same, let's say, issue. And to let you know my intuition that it is more an INTJ problem than a fem INTJ one.

I read, and I had to comment your post.

"As a result, I tend to have "f***-buddies" or else nice guys I string along for a while until I just can't any longer (and I don't want to hurt them - it's just how I am)"

Well, you do not need to be eager to hurt people. Just not caring about them will do. So... Be responsible.


I just want to get settled with someone so I don't have to go through the separation,the wasted energy, and the steps of getting to know someone new again and again and again

I completely understand you, that social rituals are a waste of time.

"It's not that I'm an intolerant critical person. I just can't feel attracted to them"

Anyone can tell you somewhat think you are an ICP. But an intj being critical is like an orange being orange.

" I find that most straight men don't usually develop to find their true self "

Who told you that a "a true self" is something you can find? Most women women do not either, neither most gay men.


Well, I have to go.

Lucky search

;)

[Indubitably]

This colorquiz is funny. It says my "actual problem" is "Takes a delight in action and wants to be respected and esteemed for her personal accomplishments." ... So it seems my actual problem is my entire personality, lol.



So how would you feel about staying home if your wife made more money?

Your Actual Problem
Wants to be valued and respected, and seeks this from a close and peaceful association of mutual esteem.

Haha, apparently, my problem is that I want a healthy relationship. XD

[OneBadMother]

Man, this thread is me in a nutshell.

I don't want a "nice guy". I don't want a jerk. I want a smart, open guy with a good sense of humor, who is willing to take jokes at his expense (very important), and will take my opinions into consideration just as I would do for them. I also want them to see me for who I am, flaws and all, and not care. Realistically speaking we should share flaws and not caring about said flaws (like being overly uptight about drug usage and not realizing when a room is messy).

Unfortunately, everyone I know who fits this description is not male, and I am straight. So either I should switch my sexual orientation, switch my sex and sexual orientation, get a lobotomy so that I will become a normal woman, or have all the cool women become male (and have sexual orientations switched if needed). Without these things happening, the pool I have to select from is rather slim, and the subpool of those who would be romantically interested in me even smaller. Thus I will live a somewhat comfortable hermithood, socializing through online forums and IRC chats for as long as the internet exists.

[JessicaHavenLea]

I am IN a relationship and having a hard time finding a meaningful relationship. But I believe that is mainly because I have a fondness for solitude. I also have a habit of seeing what would annoying to some people as completely unforgivable jackassery. Ex: My SO likes to make fun of people. He makes jokes about peoples flaws and thinks it's no big deal as long as it's funny to him (and the person doesn't tell him they're are offended).
I HATE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is rude, inconsiderate and childess to make a mockery of people (unless they truly deserve it).

I think I'd rather be alone..seriously.

[Agile]

Many of the women on here are not happy because they have issues. A number of people have put it more lightly in this thread. I will make some loose groups and put it more directly.

A number of my female (and male for that matter) fellows on here are:
Willfully, obstinately counterculture (while saying the entire time they can't help it, it's just who they are). Face it, ladies, you get a kick out of not fitting in the cookie cutter. It drives you. You look for ways to be different and pat yourself on the back for it. You look for it in others and ignore people who seem to fit in. Then you bitch about how you are not the mold and it turns people off. Or you bitch about how the average stereotypical blah turns you off.

Or you are: Loudly (at least on intjforum.com) unemotional, blatantly self-psychoanalyzing, claiming to know exactly who they are and what they want, yet just for the life of them cannot find it.
This level of certainty reeks with self deception and deliberate unfulfillment. This "I know who I am and what I want" attitude is either formatting for forum posts (lol) or its an actual way of life. Its someone whose head is held so high they can't see anyone else but the others who are either too ignorant to notice or who are, like them, deliberately doing the same thing.

Last, many are happy-as-a-clam in their own little world by themselves (probably using their parents or 1 or 2 friends as emotional fulfillment).
Fellow INTJs, INTJ women, grow up, take your heads out of the clouds. Everyone has emotional needs, everyone has emotional desires, and just about everyone needs affection. Unless you were horribly neglected, abused, or are just full of yourself to no end, you have needs, and acknowledging them is the first step to getting them met.

And if you are full of yourself, then I don't have much sympathy for you anyway, hope you continue to be happy in your clamshell, as far away from others as possible, or that you hit the brick wall you've been deserving (and many of you have hit the wall and know what I am talking about...or will hit it soon)...I hope you who are full of yourselves hit the brick wall and come back down to earth.

When a woman looks for a man who is both intelligent, socially mature, enlightened, and whatever else, this is creme-de-la-creme, and you can bet you are going to be hard pressed to find it. When she complains that the guys she goes for all seem to be of one type, this is a red flag that she is the problem, and that she needs to figure out what she isn't getting and why and what the common thread is...which is causing the cycle to repeat. It's not hard, it's common sense to us, assuming INTJs really are the most intelligent.

And the whole nice guy thing is really very interesting. Most guys are not stereotypical, just like most girls are not either. It really is difficult to generalize men and women that hard, if you've ever taken five minutes to get to know a number of different men/women.

[Nanashi]

I have had four or more male friends & acquaintances come right out and say they wouldn't mind being stay-at-home dads--some that they'd prefer it. AND I must say it sounds like a lovely idea to me. I can imagine coming home to an exhausted guy and grubby kids, and I can really see myself being happy that they'd have a close relationship as a result of spending so much time together. That's a great feeling b/c when I was a kid I just vaguely assumed I'd stay w/the kids.It bothered me that I might not be close to them if I was away. Complete emotional abandonment, however, is not requisite in being the working parent.

Having a taste of work and hish school and college, my INTJ creativity and drive was nurtured and really blossomed. I feel great riding my bike 30 miles a week commuting, working 3 part-time jobs, watching my friends' kids, and going to school.
"Work" isn't just a source of income, but independence and security.
To me, it simply doesn't seem emotionally or intellectually healthy for the woman.
I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and it's occured to me that I don't want my future husband to not have enough time or energy for his own projects, interests, creativity, and personal happiness.

If I work & he stays home, I'll have to really provide the time for him to be away from our kids.

I do like being with kids, and I can see myself staying home instead, but he'd have to be very invested in their lives, as well, and I don't always relish the idea of being the stay at home parent. I'm aware of that.

Maybe we could be creative with shifts. Maybe he'd be the primary caregiver.

We'll see.

[josephine]

I get your point, but the fact that the woman does not work doesn't mean she isn't capable of working. My mother has a PhD, but she has not worked a single day after getting it... She theoretically could easily make her own living, but she prefers not to because the extra 80k/year she would make wouldn't make a big enough difference.

There are a lot of child development studies that conclude that the best way for a child to develop is with his biological mother and that doesn't work too well if the mother starts leaving for work... Back in junior high school I kept winning regional math contests and actually wound up as third in "all of Ontario" in terms of mathematics for my age bracket. I have a few achievements of this grade and I attribute them 100% to my mothers ability to spend a couple of hours every day with me doing various learning and development exercises when I was very young. I can process information extremely quickly and have an amazing memory now and I really don't think I would have had this if she didn't take all that time with me in the past. Because of her own extensive education she was also able to teach me a lot about science, history etc. I could have never had all this with a working mother.

My future children are my main concern really... I attribute most of my successes in life to how I was raised, and that was with a stay at home mother.

I would like to address several points here.

First, there are just as many studies indicating that having two working parents does not adversely impact a child as there are studies claiming that a child is worse off for having both parents working.

Second, I would never want to stay home with kids because I want to live my own life. My parents sacrificed (and are sacrificing) a lot for me to go to one of the best universities in the world, and I'm working insanely hard to get the best grades possible. I appreciate what my parents are doing. Why, then, would I turn around and do nothing with this great potential that I feel I have? I think that I can become something wonderful or accomplish something great if I pursue my education. Why would I turn around and waste everything on changing diapers and cleaning the house? That would be a huge let-down to me. It would be like passing the torch to the next generation so that they can become something. That's what people do over and over again, and nobody actually accomplishes anything because they give their all to their kids and neglect their own potential. I don't want to pass the torch - I want to accomplish something myself.
Back in junior high school I kept winning regional math contests and actually wound up as third in "all of Ontario" in terms of mathematics for my age bracket. I have a few achievements of this grade and I attribute them 100% to my mothers ability to spend a couple of hours every day with me doing various learning and development exercises when I was very young. I can process information extremely quickly and have an amazing memory now and I really don't think I would have had this if she didn't take all that time with me in the past.

This is all great - you seem proud of it, as you should be. But would you not feel that all of your potential was being wasted if you decided to become a stay-at-home parent? What is the point of cultivating a good memory and intelligence if you never use it? And what good is it if you only use your intelligence to teach your kids (as your mother did), and then your kids turn around and decide to stay at home too. I guess you could make a "personal enrichment" argument, but I strongly believe that people have a responsibility to put their abilities to the best use possible. I would urge you to strongly reconsider whether you'd truly be willing to throw away all your academic potential to stay at home with kids. Then, you might be able to better understand why many women such as myself would be unwilling to do so. Frankly, I'd feel like I missed out on life and failed all those people who had invested in my future (parents).

I attribute most of my successes in life to how I was raised, and that was with a stay at home mother

You wouldn't have had any of that success (if you mean academic or career success) if you had stayed home with kids. Many women want success too - and are unwilling to give that dream up for the dubious benefits that doing so may confer on any future children.

[OneHertz]

First, there are just as many studies indicating that having two working parents does not adversely impact a child as there are studies claiming that a child is worse off for having both parents working.

No? What are you basing this on?

Second, I would never want to stay home with kids because I want to live my own life. My parents sacrificed (and are sacrificing) a lot for me to go to one of the best universities in the world, and I'm working insanely hard to get the best grades possible. I appreciate what my parents are doing. Why, then, would I turn around and do nothing with this great potential that I feel I have? I think that I can become something wonderful or accomplish something great if I pursue my education. Why would I turn around and waste everything on changing diapers and cleaning the house? That would be a huge let-down to me. It would be like passing the torch to the next generation so that they can become something. That's what people do over and over again, and nobody actually accomplishes anything because they give their all to their kids and neglect their own potential. I don't want to pass the torch - I want to accomplish something myself.

That's great. However I do not feel you would want kids in general. Or a husband. They would just be hindering your success any way you look at it. Why not just be alone your whole life and work/study 16 hours a day? You would accomplish lots like that; by your definition anyhow. Your parents would be proud... or would they? There is a little more behind the definition of a successful person than his/her career.

This is all great - you seem proud of it, as you should be. But would you not feel that all of your potential was being wasted if you decided to become a stay-at-home parent? What is the point of cultivating a good memory and intelligence if you never use it? And what good is it if you only use your intelligence to teach your kids (as your mother did), and then your kids turn around and decide to stay at home too. I guess you could make a "personal enrichment" argument, but I strongly believe that people have a responsibility to put their abilities to the best use possible. I would urge you to strongly reconsider whether you'd truly be willing to throw away all your academic potential to stay at home with kids. Then, you might be able to better understand why many women such as myself would be unwilling to do so. Frankly, I'd feel like I missed out on life and failed all those people who had invested in my future (parents).

Why would it be wasted? I would be happy enough knowing I have had that potential to begin with. I do not need a number in my bank account (anymore) to tell me I am doing great. It gets very old very fast if there is no one to share it with. It looks to me that you will find that out in a couple of years...

You wouldn't have had any of that success (if you mean academic or career success) if you had stayed home with kids. Many women want success too - and are unwilling to give that dream up for the dubious benefits that doing so may confer on any future children.

Fair enough, I wouldn't have had the career success. I am not saying anyone should be abandoning university. Definitely get an education before having kids... The career loss would be a trade off for a great relationship with my kid(s). There is no greater achievement (to me) than to raise a child with a high potential.

[josephine]

No? What are you basing this on?

My psychology textbook. I could try to find the name for you, but it's unlikely that you'd want to buy it/get it from the library for that purpose alone. I'll see what I can find on google really fast -

Unlike some research, this study saw no evidence that children of nonworking mothers performed inferior to those children of working mothers. from
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There are many studies that you can find, even online, that claim that whether the mother works has no impact on children.

That's great. However I do not feel you would want kids in general. Or a husband. They would just be hindering your success any way you look at it. Why not just be alone your whole life and work/study 16 hours a day? You would accomplish lots like that; by your definition anyhow. Your parents would be proud... or would they? There is a little more behind the definition of a successful person than his/her career.

I may want a family at some point down the line, but I see no reason to sacrifice my academic pursuits by staying at home. Then again, I may prefer to be alone - who knows.
There is a little more behind the definition of a successful person than his/her career.

My education means more to me than just a career - to me, my education is the most important thing at this point in my life. As for the definition of a successful person - I'm trying to point out that for many women, success includes, but is not limited to, a successful career. So that's a possible reason why they may not be happy staying at home. I never said that "success=great career only" for everyone.

Why would it be wasted? I would be happy enough knowing I have had that potential to begin with.

I wouldn't - I need tangible accomplishments. Perhaps others are like me as well - they need to see what they actually can do. I'd be very unhappy knowing that I had the potential to go, say ten miles, but only went two. (I'm not trying to change your mind - just trying to show you why someone might not want to stay at home.)

I do not need a number in my bank account (anymore) to tell me I am doing great. It gets very old very fast if there is no one to share it with. It looks to me that you will find that out just like me in a couple of years.

That's what my dad says - about becoming lonely. My parents want me to relax and be more social - I'm the one pushing myself academically because I don't want to pass up any bit of this opportunity. I came from a country where what I have now would be unheard of for many people - I'd be disappointed in myself if I damaged my chances in any way. It's not just about a number in my bank account (though I do want to earn money). I'd rather make some great discovery and be poor than become rich doing something that I don't consider worthwhile. Anybody can have a family - I want something more.

[ElstonGunn]

Anybody can have a family - I want something more.

Anybody can have a job, too.

I know, you're pursuing more than just a job or a paycheck. You want to contribute something to the world at large. That's admirable, and I don't blame you for it. Neither do I blame women who would prefer to have a family. I just get a little annoyed when people imply that my mother was a useless individual or that she wasted her potential because she decided stayed at home to raise my brother and myself. You might get satisfaction from having a career, but don't make that out to be any better than someone else who gets joy from having a family. It's possible to succeed, or fail for that matter, at either of them.

[Saint]

Many of the women on here are not happy because they have issues. A number of people have put it more lightly in this thread. I will make some loose groups and put it more directly.

A number of my female (and male for that matter) fellows on here are:
Willfully, obstinately counterculture (while saying the entire time they can't help it, it's just who they are). Face it, ladies, you get a kick out of not fitting in the cookie cutter. It drives you. You look for ways to be different and pat yourself on the back for it. You look for it in others and ignore people who seem to fit in. Then you bitch about how you are not the mold and it turns people off. Or you bitch about how the average stereotypical blah turns you off.

Or you are: Loudly (at least on intjforum.com) unemotional, blatantly self-psychoanalyzing, claiming to know exactly who they are and what they want, yet just for the life of them cannot find it.
This level of certainty reeks with self deception and deliberate unfulfillment. This "I know who I am and what I want" attitude is either formatting for forum posts (lol) or its an actual way of life. Its someone whose head is held so high they can't see anyone else but the others who are either too ignorant to notice or who are, like them, deliberately doing the same thing.

Last, many are happy-as-a-clam in their own little world by themselves (probably using their parents or 1 or 2 friends as emotional fulfillment).
Fellow INTJs, INTJ women, grow up, take your heads out of the clouds. Everyone has emotional needs, everyone has emotional desires, and just about everyone needs affection. Unless you were horribly neglected, abused, or are just full of yourself to no end, you have needs, and acknowledging them is the first step to getting them met.

And if you are full of yourself, then I don't have much sympathy for you anyway, hope you continue to be happy in your clamshell, as far away from others as possible, or that you hit the brick wall you've been deserving (and many of you have hit the wall and know what I am talking about...or will hit it soon)...I hope you who are full of yourselves hit the brick wall and come back down to earth.

When a woman looks for a man who is both intelligent, socially mature, enlightened, and whatever else, this is creme-de-la-creme, and you can bet you are going to be hard pressed to find it. When she complains that the guys she goes for all seem to be of one type, this is a red flag that she is the problem, and that she needs to figure out what she isn't getting and why and what the common thread is...which is causing the cycle to repeat. It's not hard, it's common sense to us, assuming INTJs really are the most intelligent.

And the whole nice guy thing is really very interesting. Most guys are not stereotypical, just like most girls are not either. It really is difficult to generalize men and women that hard, if you've ever taken five minutes to get to know a number of different men/women.

I very much agree. I avoided saying something in this topic because I didn't want to be too "mean." You said some of what I was going to say.

[josephine]

You might get satisfaction from having a career, but don't make that out to be any better than someone else who gets joy from having a family. It's possible to succeed, or fail for that matter, at either of them.

But I do think that contributing something career-wise to the world is better than just staying at home. That's just my opinion - I don't go around expressing this to people in the real world, so there's no harm in me thinking it. My mom also stayed at home till I was 10, so I don't look down on stay-at-home parents as people, and I certainly don't think that they're useless. If they're happy, let them live any way they want, as far as I'm concerned. I just happen to think that having a meaningful career is very important. Not everyone has to agree.

[OneHertz]

My psychology book says the opposite of yours then I guess. Psychology is really an unstable study :)

Actually just went around scouring through some journal databases and found that a stay at home mother does not influence the career success of her child, but looking at psychological disorders and emotional development a completely different story can be seen...


(From the chapter) "Should You Stay Home With Your Baby?" / Burton L. White / contends that the absence of a primary caretaker during a child's first few years produces serious emotional and psychological debilitation

This is actually extremely interesting because all your views and opinions are basically a copy of mine a couple of years back. I only wanted money back then though. Enjoy the ride and I wish you luck. I hope it doesn't take you too long to get to where you want to be. It would truly suck if it took me 20 years to get what I previously wanted just to realize that it wasn't important to me after all.

Once again, good luck!

[josephine]

Actually just went around scouring through some journal databases and found that a stay at home mother does not influence the career success of her child, but looking at psychological disorders and emotional development a completely different story can be seen...

I've never studied this area specifically, but I'm almost sure that studies with opposite conclusions can also be found. These things are rarely conclusive.

Thanks for the well wishes! :)

[Tulula]

Originally Posted by Indubitably
I hate to break it to you, but the number and quality of acceptable potential mates is not the problem. ...for the INTJs I have met, this same seemingly insatiable need to strive for constant growth and self improvement seems to be incredibly frustrating, and I believe that is at the heart of what you are feeling. I strongly suspect that the those fundamentally unattainable standards we hold ourselves to, are reflected in our choice of mate. They will never measure up to our expectations, because we will never measure up to our expectations, and we will settle for nothing less than our equal....[/
I]

I have to say, this pretty much hits the nail on the head as far as I am concerned.

I am a female INTJ, I am 47 years old, I have a 24 year old daughter, that I have raised by myself since I left her deadbeat dad when she was just over a year old.

I have never had a problem attracting men, nor have I had a problem holding on to them; and many, many have treated me like a queen -- Looking back, I also realize that I threw away some keepers, but I have no regrets there because at that time in my life, they were not keepers (at least for me) -- and probably wouldn't really be now, if I had a chance for "do-overs".

The last relationship I was in was my best, it lasted for 5 years and I totally allowed my egocentric pride get in my way on that one -- he was not very attractive, but he let me be me -- which is a lot more than most can do -- he was also a major nerd, which I loved, he also appreciated my intelligence; however, in a nutshell -- he loved me more than I loved him and honestly, I just didn't find that attractive -- so I'm thinking maybe that makes me kind of, well more than just kind of, but actually totally and royally an a$$hole!

I can say this now because he finally got over me and then suddenly went out and married a lady who he said would "dance" for him. My response to him was that he must be pretty desperate if he was willing to sacrifice his freedom for a lap dance!

Since then, I have regretted that statement, as well as the fact that I threw away the one person that actually gave me my space, appreciated my intelligence, could tell me to eat crap and die without blinking an eye -- knew I was much better looking than him, but still trusted me to do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, and I don't think I [I]ever even danced for him.

One more thing, he was rich, filthy, filthy rich but I threw him away basically because I could wrap him around my little finger -- which was completely crazy since in his world -- minus me -- he is known as an extremely powerful man.

I've actually gotten over him now, but I mourned his loss for over 2 years (isn't that ironic) The funniest thing is that I haven't gotten over the fact that I had to come face to face with my own insecurities and my own inability to allow myself to trust and appreciate love when it slaps me in the face -- or the fact that I felt he should be stronger than me, yet, in truth, he actually was.

I'm not sure I had ever really believed in the idea of "in love" before that, and I'm sure that I was not "in love" with him, but I do know that I loved him more than any man I have ever been with and I believe he was completely "in love" with me and I know he tried the best he could to be whatever I needed him to be.

Recently, I met this man, short, bald, nice, intelligent, kind, not real good looking, but something just clicked -- now he tells me that he has never been married because he has never met a woman who can put up with his weird quirks, like the fact that he has to have his own space, sometimes falls off the map mysteriously for days at a time -- but is usually just at home with the answering machine off, not answering the door -- just nerding out. Does that sound familar to anyone?

As for me, well, I am so looking forward to cracking this nut -- but I'm thinking (no hoping) that he might just be the one to crack this old hardshelled nut. I guess time will tell.

I'm just hoping it's not "karma" time!

[schwartzie]

I have to say, this pretty much hits the nail on the head as far as I am concerned. ...
Recently, I met this man, ... but I'm thinking (no hoping) that he might just be the one to crack [I]this old hardshelled nut. I guess time will tell. I'm just hoping it's not "karma" time!
Tulula, that's quite a story to share. Thanks.
and good luck to you and your new nerd!

[ScurvyRose]

Holy Cow! The color quiz was like actually listening to that strange little voice in my head!! Great site!

[schwartzie]

Holy Cow! The color quiz was like actually listening to that strange little voice in my head!! Great site!
yeah--it can be weirdly on target!

[kdp]

I am an INTJ female. And I lucked up and fell for the best type of man for me. He's an ENFJ, but more importantly, he's a capricorn. I'm a card-carrying Leo. He is the stable strong masculine type of man that I need from which my rockets can launch. I am way more educated than he, way more ambitious than he and way way more driven than he. But he likes that in me so it's not a problem. If he was like that too there is no way it can work. Our core values are aligned. We started out as work friends, then we quiely fell in love. We've been together 14 years. ( I was 26 and he was 22 back then). We have 4 children. And a loving harmonious peaceful home.

I have to overlook a lot of things that drive INTJ crazy. He does abuse pronouns to the point where I cannot follow the story. He does get distracted easily. But sometimes when you are driven to find true love, you have to see past a person's broken fences, so that you see their beautiful garden.

[Indubitably]

I am an INTJ female. And I lucked up and fell for the best type of man for me. He's an ENFJ, but more importantly, he's a capricorn. I'm a card-carrying Leo. He is the stable strong masculine type of man that I need from which my rockets can launch. I am way more educated than he, way more ambitious than he and way way more driven than he. But he likes that in me so it's not a problem. If he was like that too there is no way it can work. Our core values are aligned. We started out as work friends, then we quiely fell in love. We've been together 14 years. ( I was 26 and he was 22 back then). We have 4 children. And a loving harmonious peaceful home.

I have to overlook a lot of things that drive INTJ crazy. He does abuse pronouns to the point where I cannot follow the story. He does get distracted easily. But sometimes when you are driven to find true love, you have to see past a person's broken fences, so that you see their beautiful garden.

It is perhaps interesting to note that most people's zodiac sign is completely different from what they have been told. Its not surprising when you consider the fact that the stars "move" as time progresses. The one that most people are given is outdated by several hundred years. If you want to know what zodiac you were actually "born under" you have to account for where the constellation was for the year you were born. What complicates things further is that there are apparently 13 zodiac constellations, rather than 12. Turns out I was born under Ophiuchus, a sign that is essentially discarded in many fortune telling traditions because 12 is more conveniently divisible than 13. It is still up there though, and regardless of whether they use it or not, it was still the sign I was born under. The actual sign you where born under is likely determined more accurately by this chart..

ZODIAC FOR PEOPLE BORN BEFORE 1990

ARIES = APRIL 19 - MAY 13
TAURUS = MAY 14 - JUNE 19
GEMINI = JUNE 20 - JULY 20
CANCER = JULY 21 - AUG 9
LEO = AUGUST 10 - SEPTEMBER 15
VIRGO = SEPTEMBER 16 - OCTOBER 30
LIBRA = OCTOBER 31 - NOVEMBER 22
SCORPIO = NOVEMBER 23 - NOVEMBER 29
OPHIUCHUS = NOVEMBER 30 - DECEMBER 17
SAGITTARIUS = DECEMBER 18 - JANUARY 18
CAPRICORN = JANUARY 19 - FEBRUARY 15
AQUARIUS = FEBRUARY 16 - MARCH 11
PISCES = MARCH 12 - APRIL 18

Zodiac for children born after 1990:

AQUARIUS March 26 - April 18
PISCES April 19 - May 26
ARIES May 27 - June 20
TAURUS June 21 - July27
GEMINI July 28 - August 27
CANCER August 28 - September 17
LEO September 18 - October 24
VIRGO October 25 - December 9
LIBRA December 10 - January 1
SCORPIO January 2 - January 8
OPHIUCHUS January 9 - Janury 26
SAGITTARIUS January 27 - February 27
CAPRICORN February 28 - March 25

Of course none of this really matters that much. I'm sure most people are more interested in simply finding a theme they can identify with than actually knowing what sign they were literally born under, but it is a curious distraction none the less.

[rain]

I'm not certain this relationship strife is limited to INTJ women, but mainly I think women who have advanced degrees typically seem to have a problem finding the right man because they don't want to settle for merely a companion type to fit into others' perspectives of what is the norm in society.

[duende]

yeah, I've read "studies" and anecdotal evidence that professional, high-earning, better educated women tend to be less likely to find a partner, but in reading your post it's curious to me that you put the onus on the woman making the decision to "settle" or not, rather than the potential male partner making the decision. None of the men who have been interested in me and vice versa considered having anything more serious than a physical relationship, much less marriage. Some had higher incomes and more education than I, some had less. All these men informed me that they have been in love with women before-- they simply felt no love or emotional connection vis a vis me.

[rain]

yeah, I've read "studies" and anecdotal evidence that professional, high-earning, better educated women tend to be less likely to find a partner, but in reading your post it's curious to me that you put the onus on the woman making the decision to "settle" or not, rather than the potential male partner making the decision. None of the men who have been interested in me and vice versa considered having anything more serious than a physical relationship, much less marriage. Some had higher incomes and more education than I, some had less. All these men informed me that they have been in love with women before-- they simply felt no love or emotional connection vis a vis me.

I'm not certain about high-earning women. They typically tend to go after younger men and seem to have no shortage of them. There is something sexy about a woman in a business suit, isn't there?

Other professional women that I know are settled into happy relationships, although they seemed to have done so at a later age than most people and now are focused on raising their families. I think the breeding instinct kicks in much later for women who are professionals.

[duende]

I'm not sure it's so much a "breeding instinct" as the fact that an INTJ or any professional woman wants to achieve a certain level of material success or financial security in order to raise a child or children, and in most cases, that takes some time.

Also, and I'm very interested to know if any other INTJ women have this experience, I was raised with the expectation that men simply would be uninterested in marrying me, given my personality and, according to my parents and teachers, my intelligence (i.e. nerdiness). When I was 5 years old, I was asked to select a desired occupation from a long list that was provided to me and I don't believe "mother" or "wife" was on it! I never "dated" as a teenager and it was quite a shock to my parents that I was even asked to go to prom, albeit by a friend. It does take time to deconstruct assumptions that have been ingrained since childhood.

[rain]

I was raised with the expectation that men simply would be uninterested in marrying me, given my personality and, according to my parents and teachers, my intelligence (i.e. nerdiness).

I didn't have that experience. In fact, my parents are hoping I will settle down. My father was disappointed that I didn't marry my last boyfriend. They think I am incredibly picky and always attempting to set me up with someone. I had a conversation recently with my mother, and she told me I should marry someone younger, as she wanted grandchildren, and didn't believe older men could reproduce healthy babies, lol.

My mother is a funny one. :)

[duende]

that is funny-- I always wondered about that myself....
as for the age thing, the younger men I've known weren't at all ready to settle down and raise a family and the older men were looking for women even younger than me or have already raised children in a previous marriage and aren't interested in a second batch. I've observed there's a glut of single professional women of my age in this area, and I think the odds for them of finding a partner and raising a family are basically slim to none. Anecdotally, I've heard some women are traveling overseas to find spouses-- I guess American citizenship is the new dowry!

[rain]

I guess American citizenship is the new dowry!

with the continually falling dollar, wouldn't the new dowry be a European citizenship?

[phantasma]

And I thought I had it bad being 17 and never having a boyfriend... Intelligence alone is hard enough to find in a high school setting, and when I do, it's in geeks who can't seem to get their mind around anything other than the SAT and Harvard. :rolleyes: And the guys that do ask me out don't even consider me. Just my body.

It stinks being a 17 year old INTP girl.

[Indubitably]

And I thought I had it bad being 17 and never having a boyfriend... Intelligence alone is hard enough to find in a high school setting, and when I do, it's in geeks who can't seem to get their mind around anything other than the SAT and Harvard. :rolleyes: And the guys that do ask me out don't even consider me. Just my body.

It stinks being a 17 year old INTP girl.

Hehehe, hang in there, the guys around you may seem like complete assholes right now, but your time will come. I was actually just talking about the unfortunate reality that men are emotionally retarded in another thread. Basically my formula for determining the emotional age of a male is BECL = (CA/2)+5 , where CA = the subject's chronological age, and BECL represents their base emotional competence level. Its a simple model, and only really effective between the ages of 15 and 35, but it is generally accurate enough to prove useful as a rough guide (I'm working on finishing up my first differential equations class right now, so with any luck I should at least be able to hammer out a linear second order equation that takes social damping factors into account some time soon XD). Its no wonder that you are frustrated with boys though, the guys in your social circles are probably operating at about the same emotional competence level as a 13 to 14 year old girl.

Please do try to take some solace in the fact that it is not your fault though, you will find the right guy, it may just take a little while.

[PortInStorm]

In my highschool and college years I had trouble finding someone who was interested and understood me, someone who I clicked with. But to be honest, I needed help in the wardrobe and hair depts so that anyone would be bothered with a second look. Once I started with that, and had some great social experiences with various types (mostly in the volunteer and school arenas that put me beside guys long enough for them to get to know me involuntarily :-), I built a little bit of confidence that, combined with growing maturity, snowballed into an ability to attract a few guys. In all honesty I was surprised almost every time.

Eventually I met an ENTP and an ESTJ that filled that 'love need' so completely that I don't feel like I ever need anyone else. Sadly, through convoluted circumstances, I lost my ENTP about two months ago, and am just starting to feel joy again. But knowing what an ass I can be many times, it shocks me that they stuck with me, or remained attracted. To me, it was impossible to find the right relationship- I needed the right relationships ie. more than one to fill the hole. I deeply miss my ENTP and feel the void keenly.

[duende]

And I thought I had it bad being 17 and never having a boyfriend... Intelligence alone is hard enough to find in a high school setting, and when I do, it's in geeks who can't seem to get their mind around anything other than the SAT and Harvard. :rolleyes: And the guys that do ask me out don't even consider me. Just my body.

It stinks being a 17 year old INTP girl.


I feel incredibly old offering advice to you, but it was given to me very late in life and I soooo wish someone had told me when I was your age. I didn't have any relationships with men for 13 years because I found their behavior so disgusting -- when I decided to get involved with men, a woman told me not to lower my standards. I never even thought of imposing my standards on anyone, but of course you have the right to do so---it's your life and happiness at stake! I did lower my standards and I became involved with men who have serious drinking problems, who have a history of short-term, "no strings attached" relationships, who are incredibly immature for their age, etc. -- in other words, these guys were a mess and made me feel so degraded because I didn't have the self-respect to avoid them. Set your standards and hold to them!!

[volk]

that is funny-- I always wondered about that myself....
as for the age thing, the younger men I've known weren't at all ready to settle down and raise a family and the older men were looking for women even younger than me or have already raised children in a previous marriage and aren't interested in a second batch. I've observed there's a glut of single professional women of my age in this area, and I think the odds for them of finding a partner and raising a family are basically slim to none. Anecdotally, I've heard some women are traveling overseas to find spouses-- I guess American citizenship is the new dowry!

Sounds promising :cool:

[Indubitably]

I feel incredibly old offering advice to you, but it was given to me very late in life and I soooo wish someone had told me when I was your age. I didn't have any relationships with men for 13 years because I found their behavior so disgusting -- when I decided to get involved with men, a woman told me not to lower my standards. I never even thought of imposing my standards on anyone, but of course you have the right to do so---it's your life and happiness at stake! I did lower my standards and I became involved with men who have serious drinking problems, who have a history of short-term, "no strings attached" relationships, who are incredibly immature for their age, etc. -- in other words, these guys were a mess and made me feel so degraded because I didn't have the self-respect to avoid them. Set your standards and hold to them!!

I think it is perhaps better to say, "Have realistic standards, but don't compromise them just to avoid being alone".

I have to say that in much the same way that you wish someone had told you to watch out for jerks, I really wish someone had told me to "get over yourself" a long time ago. I can't count the number of gorgeous, interesting, and quite possibly wonderful women I either ignored, dismissed, or just outright rejected because they weren't "perfect". I wound up dating girls that were the best fit for my ideals, while passing up the ones I was honestly attracted to and liked to be around, which will only leave you frustrated and disappointed. As cliche as this sounds, once I learned to open up and trust myself a little, I found that there were actually interested girls that could make me happy all over the bloody place, and now I'm kicking myself for not noticing them sooner.

[Kellay]

"I tend to prefer guys that are not extremely confident, and are a little quieter."

Me too. It IS hard, b/c we're so picky. But, guys that we'll actually really really like and click with DO exist. They're just few and hard to find. Pray about it, and talk to guys without looking to hard (because once you forget about it, that's when the right one will come). So try not to obsess over it by getting your mind on some other pursuit.

Again, yup, very difficult to find the right relationship (or at least, to have it actually manifest).

[liquidzilla]

I guess it's similar for me in the way I become physically attracted to a guy, then he turns out to be horrible, but strangely I've developed a sort of connection by that point and find it a little hard to break. The nice guys seem to have the emotional side of things down to scratch (independent, supportive, accepting, intelligent ect) but I'm not physically attracted to them.
It's rather strange...

[anumericalevil]

I don't sleep around. Actually I'm also quite a commitment phobe too. I don't really know what I want. I guess I'll have to grow up and mature first. I'm scared of growing up and becoming an adult. Adults freak me out with their irrationality and pride. I don't like humans :<


/childish rant

[Coralaisly]

Singing to the choir, my friend, singing to the choir.

I find that the men I'm physically attracted to end up being jerks, and the ones I make a mental/intellectual connection with, I don't find sexually attractive, and most of the time when they ask me out, I'm in no way interested in because I've come to see them as I would a brother. I love them to bits, but the thought of letting him kiss me, or more results in an immediate, lasting loss of appetite among other things.

The last man I dated, after being with him for a year asked me to marry him. He was the type I could talk to, he was smart and funny, I wasn't really physically into it all the time, but it was the closest I'd ever gotten to finding someone who fit in both categories, and the pure thought of sex with him didn't make me cringe, so I agreed to marry him. I did love him, he was more of a close close friend than anything, but I could stand his presence, so I thought "why not? who knows, he might grow on me." 6 months into the engagement, I found out he had been cheating on me for a year, so into category 1 (personality wise, aka he's a jerk, but he's mildly attractive), and to the proverbial curb with him.

It would be nice to find one male of the human variety who is even mildly attractive AND loyal, with a sense of humor and intelligence slightly higher than that of a cup of soup, not one or the other. I'm sure they exist, but maybe other girls, more outgoing ones (?), already have them? Come on, now, universe! All I need is one. Just one. Is that so difficult??! gah!

I'm the common denominator, maybe it's me...

---------- Post added 11-08-2009 at 08:37 PM ----------

TAURUS = MAY 14 - JUNE 19


Well, no wonder. I always thought I was more of an earth element than air.

[bipolarbear]

I've got a question for you ladies.

Do you ever want to be dominated?

Are you ever tired of being the provider in your relationships? Do you often find yourself micromanaging your mate? I'm dating an incredibly immature and indecisive INFP, and I don't respect him very much. I am waiting for the opportunity to--when he throws me over his shoulder and brings me back to his cave for some Total Domination.

[Pandemonium]

I've got a question for you ladies.

Do you ever want to be dominated?

Are you ever tired of being the provider in your relationships? Do you often find yourself micromanaging your mate? I'm dating an incredibly immature and indecisive INFP, and I don't respect him very much. I am waiting for the opportunity to--when he throws me over his shoulder and brings me back to his cave for some Total Domination.

My friend's girl friend was stating to me the exact same thing about my friend. Amusing. Just spike his food or drinks with some pcp and Viagra. I think it would work. ^_^

[NON ROBOT]

Me thinks you should try an NF male who's of your depth-yet with even more-feeling.Check back with me,maybe we can chat...?

[Chshrkat09]

I'm having the exact same issue. I have more F*** buddies than real relationships. My first boyfriend ever only lasted 2 months. He was a nice guy, but dear god I couldn't stand him. Way to clingy, yet other guys I have found attractive can barely hold an intellectual conversation and are into themselves way to much. Most of the guys I end up liking turn out to be gay, so I end up with a nice friendship at least. I'm starting to think I will ever find someone I can truly settle down with and be myself, though I haven't given up hope yet.

[Breadpazoid]

The longest lasting, most stable, and somehow most interesting male relationship I have is with a gay friend of mine. I've got a hopeless crush on him, but am well aware of the fact it would never happen beyond a random hookup (he does date transmen, so he's not totally allergic to lady-bits).

He's opinionated enough to present a different side of a coin to me, boisterous enough to get into good-humored arguments with me and harbor no ill feelings, smart enough to actually teach me something I didn't know once in a while, and emotionally aware enough to have great conversations about relationships - not to mention life, the universe, and everything.

He can laugh at himself, has NO problem laughing at me, says what he thinks and always has a mischievous twinkle in his eye.

Sigh. :lovestruck:

As for straight men, no significant luck.

[Ilara]

Everybody has trouble finding the "right" relationship. At a certain point you just have to go out, meet people, and look around. I think that a lot of the trouble that INTJ women have is that we are not really paying attention to the opportunities around us much of the time.

My current relationship kind of fell into my lap. I wouldn't have continued, nurtured, and invested in it if I'd thought it wasn't worthwhile, but I did think it was. Because I was open to an opportunity when it showed up, it worked out well. I liked him, he liked me, we got along... hey, we should try it out and see if it fits. And there you have it: happy relationship with a great man.

If I had been less determined to socialize on the evening we met on a one-on-one basis, we might never have gotten where we are now.

[aranae]

I want to compare information with other INTJ women and see if this is a general trend, or just me.

I find it incredibly difficult to find a man I am both physically attracted to (that's way hard enough) let alone someone I really feel comfortable with- I'm sick of it. I just want to get settled with someone so I don't have to go through the separation,the wasted energy, and the steps of getting to know someone new again and again and again ...



ha, that's why I stopped dating 5 years ago. I *just* wanted to find someone, to be settled, the J part of me got really tired of getting to know someone and having it turn out that this guy wasn't someone I should marry.

Lately, though, I've been thinking about dating again. BUT, there's no one to date. I'm in my early 30's. I dated guys in college, but my schoolwork came first, and I usually ended the relationships before classes started up again because dating someone while trying to focus on my studies would have been to difficult for me.

Now that I have my degree and a job....I wish I could find a husband. I honestly don't know if that will ever ever happen though. I'm so picky. ugh.

[Antares]

I have a more moderate version of a checkered "fuck buddy" history. I've never had sex, but each time they were short, meaningless flings. Out of the four times, two ended up emotionally attached to me. What a bummer. The men I've fallen for are either 1. on another continent 2. will not do anything about their attraction because they're too shy. 3. Not interested in me. It sucks, because these men are usually real gems that would be hard to find again.

[duende]

I know women have posted reports of their LTRs on this forum, but I find it incredibly difficult to believe. I'm in my early 40s, get a lot of attention--mostly unwelcome--from men, but have never found a man I was attracted to who also was interested in a serious relationship with me-- i.e., no boyfriend. Whenever I've raised the suggestion of an emotional involvement with a guy I'm interested in, he has reacted with a combination of disgust, repulsion, anger, and "you must be joking." The men who are interested in INTJ women, at least based on my experience, are interested strictly for sexual reasons, and they act ashamed they are attracted to an INTJ-- most of these guys tell me from the very beginning that I'm not as feminine, beautiful, soft, sweet, etc., as their ex-GFs and wives-- i.e., I'm not a "man's woman". One guy even asked me if I was post-op!! Another took me to a cosmetician-- interesting experience-- and another insisted I wear clothing that was meant for teenage girls. And the fact that I often earn more than these men, which may be more common with INTJ women, doesn't help with their ego issues!!
This is a completely nonscientific analysis of the type of women whom men want to marry, at least in my neck of the woods, but it seems revealing-- they are yoga instructors, preschool teachers, pediatric nurses, baristas, hairdressers, store clerks, bartenders, and waitresses/hostesses. I'd be pretty surprised if any were INTJs!!
Interestingly, a few months ago I met a guy-- definitely not the macho type-- who knows about INTJ women. He had been married to one. She divorced him after a couple of years. He didn't know I was an INTJ when he introduced himself to me. His pick-up attempt that evening progressed to the point where he would not keep his hands off me-- it was repulsive, and I ended up basically having to escape him and very thankful I hadn't told him my name. So maybe the few men who want relationships with an INTJ are exactly the kind of men we're not attracted to--

[Llen]

*Random Thread Quote*

Hehe, oh its not just females. You could literally have lifted almost this same post from my livejournal. I keep getting myself into these relationships that I know just aren't going to last. Right from the get go the girl is either a lesbian that wanted to experiment, or married, or just not interested in anything more than sex, or I'm not really that interested and we wind up as just friends.

I hate to break it to you, but the number and quality of acceptable potential mates is not the problem. Let me ask you one question: are you ever satisfied with yourself? That is to say, do you ever feel like you have achieved enough in your life, and do you feel like you are acceptable as you are? I don't know about you, but for me the answer is almost always no. There always seems to be more that I can learn, a better way to do something, another puzzle that I just won't be happy until I solve. I am an INTP, so I don't have so many issues with leaving things unresolved, but for the INTJs I have met, this same seemingly insatiable need to strive for constant growth and self improvement seems to be incredibly frustrating, and I believe that is at the heart of what you are feeling. I strongly suspect that the those fundamentally unattainable standards we hold ourselves to, are reflected in our choice of mate. They will never measure up to our expectations, because we will never measure up to our expectations, and we will settle for nothing less than our equal.

We surround ourselves with incredibly beautiful gay people of the opposite gender because they are safe. We can allow ourselves to accept them because we know we will never have to actually put their worth as a mate to the test. In essence the very reason they are good enough for us is the fact that they are unattainable, just as our ideal self image is unattainable.

I'm reading through the thread and I just wanted to note Indubitably's comment. It struck me as poignantly true. However, I don't surround myself with homosexual members of the opposite sex, only the emotionally unavailable ones. It's all the same, I suppose.

---------- Post added 07-27-2010 at 11:56 AM ----------

* Random Thread Quote *

Many of the women on here are not happy because they have issues. A number of people have put it more lightly in this thread. I will make some loose groups and put it more directly.

A number of my female (and male for that matter) fellows on here are:
Willfully, obstinately counterculture (while saying the entire time they can't help it, it's just who they are). Face it, ladies, you get a kick out of not fitting in the cookie cutter. It drives you. You look for ways to be different and pat yourself on the back for it. You look for it in others and ignore people who seem to fit in. Then you bitch about how you are not the mold and it turns people off. Or you bitch about how the average stereotypical blah turns you off.

Or you are: Loudly (at least on intjforum.com) unemotional, blatantly self-psychoanalyzing, claiming to know exactly who they are and what they want, yet just for the life of them cannot find it.
This level of certainty reeks with self deception and deliberate unfulfillment. This "I know who I am and what I want" attitude is either formatting for forum posts (lol) or its an actual way of life. Its someone whose head is held so high they can't see anyone else but the others who are either too ignorant to notice or who are, like them, deliberately doing the same thing.

Last, many are happy-as-a-clam in their own little world by themselves (probably using their parents or 1 or 2 friends as emotional fulfillment).
Fellow INTJs, INTJ women, grow up, take your heads out of the clouds. Everyone has emotional needs, everyone has emotional desires, and just about everyone needs affection. Unless you were horribly neglected, abused, or are just full of yourself to no end, you have needs, and acknowledging them is the first step to getting them met.

And if you are full of yourself, then I don't have much sympathy for you anyway, hope you continue to be happy in your clamshell, as far away from others as possible, or that you hit the brick wall you've been deserving (and many of you have hit the wall and know what I am talking about...or will hit it soon)...I hope you who are full of yourselves hit the brick wall and come back down to earth.

When a woman looks for a man who is both intelligent, socially mature, enlightened, and whatever else, this is creme-de-la-creme, and you can bet you are going to be hard pressed to find it. When she complains that the guys she goes for all seem to be of one type, this is a red flag that she is the problem, and that she needs to figure out what she isn't getting and why and what the common thread is...which is causing the cycle to repeat. It's not hard, it's common sense to us, assuming INTJs really are the most intelligent.

And the whole nice guy thing is really very interesting. Most guys are not stereotypical, just like most girls are not either. It really is difficult to generalize men and women that hard, if you've ever taken five minutes to get to know a number of different men/women.



Well..............f*ck.

I exhibit some of the traits outlined in this post. However, I offer no apology.

To hear such a harsh assessment actually turned me on. Odd, no?

---------- Post added 07-27-2010 at 12:27 PM ----------

I've got a question for you ladies.

Do you ever want to be dominated?

Are you ever tired of being the provider in your relationships? Do you often find yourself micromanaging your mate? I'm dating an incredibly immature and indecisive INFP, and I don't respect him very much. I am waiting for the opportunity to--when he throws me over his shoulder and brings me back to his cave for some Total Domination.

The answer to all of your questions is: Yes, but only in a sexual manner. Any other suppressive manners will not be tolerated.

Most of the men I date are surprised to hear this (if they're fortunate enough to find out.) It's sweet that a few guys try to fulfill my "request."

However, they usually fail by overdoing it (and thus become demeaning individuals)...which pisses me off...causing my INTJ analytical tendencies to turn on full force...leaving a wake of destroyed male egos in its wake.

Such a vicious cycle.